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Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel Acceptance of Cash Payments Review
Witness: Digital Jersey
Tuesday, 20th August 2024
Panel:
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair) Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North
Witness:
Mr. T. Moretta, Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey
[13:31]
Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade (Chair):
Tony, welcome to the meeting. Thanks for coming. This is a public hearing, and I think we have gone live, so thanks also to anyone who is listening in the ether somewhere. This is the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel. It is our second public hearing, which we just started today, into the Acceptance of Cash Payments Review, so welcome. In a moment I will let you introduce yourselves, but I am Deputy Tadier . I am the chair of the panel.
Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North : I am Deputy Max Andrews , panel member.
Deputy M. Tadier :
If you introduce yourself just for the record, please.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Tony Moretta, C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer) of Digital Jersey.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you. I think you have been to Scrutiny hearings before, have you not?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey: Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You are aware there is just that form of words in front of you which says effectively you are covered by parliamentary privilege so long as what you say you believe to be true.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey: Okay.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You can speak freely and openly. If we get started, we have got about an hour for this if we need it. Thanks again for attending on the panel. Firstly, it might be valuable for us to understand a brief outline of the role of Digital Jersey for the record.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
The brief description of what Digital Jersey does is we are an arm’s-length economic development agency. We get about 80, 85 per cent of our funding from Government. That is mostly through the Economy Department but partly through the Education Department. We are also an industry association, so we get revenues from various companies, small businesses and large corporates in Jersey as well. We have 3 main focuses, you could say. The major one is economic development, whether that is growing the digital sector of the economy with the economic benefits that brings or helping other parts of the economy, whether that is financial services, tourism, agriculture, use of technology to improve productivity, performance, et cetera. We also have a focus on innovation, whether that is development of new products and services for Jersey. A good example would be data trusts at the moment or running the Impact Jersey programme on behalf of Government and we also focus on digital skills through the Digital Jersey Academy.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Good. Thank you. So, just to give some context for us as well, we have been running a survey which involves discreet responses that people can give digitally or there has been a paper submission. There is a few of those but also people have been able to give us written feedback, so some people have availed themselves of that. Thank you for your submission, by the way, which I have read and I have got in front of me, which we will refer to as we go through. You have identified that electronic payments are preferred by the vast majority of consumers and that the Island has seen an acceleration of particularly contactless payments, so it could be card or mobile transactions. How has this impacted consumers and businesses in your view?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
I think the good example that we all saw was what happened during COVID where people moved to contactless payments. Those who have worked in the payments industry will know that there have always been concerns about hygiene around notes and coins. Some industries obviously have a bigger issue with that than others, hospitality for example, and then obviously with COVID it really pushed it. I think my favourite example in Jersey was when we saw the first honesty box that took Revolut, which I thought is a great way of showing innovation but also how anyone can use those digital payments. But another good example, I think I probably put in my submission, is I was heavily involved with Government in getting PayByPhone introduced. Not only did PayByPhone themselves say that they had never seen a more rapid uptake in a location than they had seen in Jersey ... I think, to be fair, that is possibly because we were relatively late to the game on that, but I am now told that about 80 per cent of parking is paid for PayByPhone, so it shows you where people have choice ... and let us not forget, and it is quite a good example there, that paycards were not removed as an option. I think Government are reviewing the circulation of paycards because there is a cost associated with paycards. You are selling them through merchants, you are giving a commission, there is a cost associated with that, but I think that shows that the people of Jersey … and there are stats to show that smartphone usage is higher as a percentage of the population in Jersey than it is, for example, in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and many other countries. Left to a choice, the vast majority of people - not 100 per cent though, obviously, which is what you have got to look at - will go for the digital option.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I suppose to take that as an example, what we are seeing there is, if you like, a move towards A.N.P.R. (automatic number plate recognition), is that what it is called, automatic number plate …
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
In a few places in Jersey, but only a couple of places use A.N.P.R., so the airport and the waterfront car park and Sand Street, but most locations do not.
Deputy M. Tadier :
What we have got is a manual version of that so now, I suppose, the traffic warden will have to look at a car. If it is not displaying paycards, in the past you would have got a fine, but now you get your number plate scanned and then they presumably check as to whether you have paid via an app.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes. I have not used it myself, but my assumption is … well, I know that the parking wardens will have their own version of the app on their phone, and they just scan the number plate and that tells them if there is a valid session that has been paid for or not.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Does that tell us that we are still in the hybrid stage because you still need the intervention of a traffic warden to come along and check the car and then to intervene in what should be otherwise an automatic process?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, obviously, to have an automatic process, you look at an example, so you do not need traffic wardens at somewhere like the airport car park because it is barrier and if we put barriers in all of the car parks, you could make that happen as well but how does that work for on-street, for example?
Deputy M. Tadier : Yes.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
I think one of my first experiences of the media in Jersey was I gave a speech saying I thought paycards were a bit weird, because they are, coming here for the first time, because Jersey does not have pay and display machines like most places and I was accused by various people of wanting to get rid of traffic wardens. Well, you still need traffic wardens. You still need enforcement. That is not a technology issue, but you are right, all technology is hybrid in some form, depending on the implementation, and parking is a great example. We have lots of different ways of parking, whether it is a barrier, who runs it, where it is, how you pay, but certainly I was very pleased and the team were very pleased, in Infrastructure, at how quick the take-up was because it is a good example. It is a better experience for consumers. I do remember scratching off 8 one-hour paycards when I got to Jersey and tweeting: “There has to be a better way.”
Deputy M. Tadier : Did you win anything?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
No, but I think Sam Mézec ’s dad posted: “Yes, there is 2 4-hour paycards.” which was one of my first introductions to Jersey’s sense of humour, but you are not having to scratch off the paycards, you can extend it without going back to the car, which is a big advantage for people, and it is cheaper for Government. It is cheaper to run for Government and I heard you talking to Sir Mark about the surcharge. Well, it shows you how Jersey can do things differently. Typically, if you use PayByPhone in the U.K. with, say, a local council car park, you will pay a surcharge of about 20 pence for doing that. In Jersey we looked very carefully at the economics for Government and Government I think at the time worked out - it might be different now - that if somebody parked for more than an hour, they were saving money compared to the cost of paycards. So there was the justification in Jersey to say: “Would it not be great if Government did not have to charge any surcharge at all?” That is why I think you are right, you looked it up, there is not a surcharge from Government for PayByPhone where there is in most places. As ever with these things, it is not a blind implementation of the technology. It is reviewing what is the best fit for a particular location.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Good. Thank you. If I can maybe cut to what I think is the nub of the philosophical challenge that faces Government, if not the wider business community, I think we have had … the vast majority of our responses, or certainly a majority, have said that not only do they value choice, which I know you have said as well, but they would welcome legislation to oblige all businesses to take cash. That is not what you have said. I think you have been very specific on what may be certain types of services and products that could be obliged to take both forms of payment. Can you just talk about that initially?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, it is really interesting. One of the things I was going to say at the beginning, I did read through some of the other submissions that you have had. There does seem to be a sort of Facebook type conspiracy that somebody is trying to force the cashless society, which obviously is not what you are looking to do, quite the opposite in some ways in terms of protecting people. I am not aware that there is any movement in Jersey and, as I think I said, if we are not pushing for it at Digital Jersey, I am not sure who would, so there is no push to do it. Again, a good example is I advocated for retaining paycards when we introduced PayByPhone. I think my position was leave it up to the market, but I do recognise that you cannot force people. We can perhaps go into some of the things Sir Mark talked about about what we can do to help people in terms of digital inclusion, but I do not think you should force people to use digital, certainly for certain services. My view is I am not an advocate of pushing for a completely cashless society. I think it might happen by itself in time, but I think there are certain services that it should be protected. As was discussed before, it is more expensive to do it, but you can still use cash on a bus. You can still use cash, I assume, if you go and pay your utility bill, if you want to go to government services. I think there some things, certain services that are regulated, like taxis for example, went the other way where Government mandated the use of cards but also to push for … to enable cash as well. My personal view is if you are going to stage an intervention, it should not be to force business to accept cash unless it is in certain categories where you think there is not a choice. If there was a monopoly provider, I think that is different from forcing every coffee shop to take cash. As I think you have discussed before, an
individual coffee shop will think: “Are we going to lose business or not and is the business we lose going to be made up for in the savings we make by not having cash on the premises?” That is my view, and it was interesting, I only read an article this morning; I do not know whether you have seen it ... there was a lot of stuff on Facebook and a lot of conspiracy theorists posting pictures of Paris quiet during the Olympics and it said: “That is because you could only use cash in Paris during the Olympics” and it is complete rubbish. I mean Paris was quiet in some places because Parisians leave in August and because a lot of tourists avoided expensive hotels during the Olympics, but the opposite was true because Visa are a major sponsor of the Olympics. You cannot use Mastercard or Amex on site, but they enable you to buy prepaid Visa debit cards and branded cards and things like that to use there. But I did not realise until reading only this morning that in France there is legislation to protect the use of cash in certain environments but there are some exceptions to that in terms of security or technology or places where it is just very difficult to accept cash as well. So there are good examples out there.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thanks for that. I think we are potentially all interested in the fact that there are compelling arguments for government and for society to move completely cashless and we have not heard a lot about them. I think some of them are contained within some of the submissions we are working through, and we will obviously be putting that to Government, but I suppose just as an interested citizen rather than necessarily as the head of Digital Jersey because you do talk about … in fact we can ask this as the next question. You talk about that the benefits would be large moving to a cashless society in terms of the efficiencies but they would not outweigh the loss of choice. Do you think that is an interim problem and that we will end up being a cashless society and that we probably will not look back when we are cashless?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
I think there will come a point, and maybe as demographics change, when the vast majority of transactions are cashless and so there might be other ways of enabling people who cannot access the services to … I think there was a discussion about giving it to them for free. There are modes of that. If somebody is in a position where they do not access these services, there are other ways of doing it rather than mandating the use of cash. My view is, yes, we talk about productivity a lot as an Island. Digital payments are faster. They enable new business models in terms of ordering without having to have the manual process of doing it, convenience, hygiene as we talked about, security, very secure. I think a good example … I think again it was Mark, was it not, about theft? It does not feel like something we talk about but if you talk to a lot of small business, that is an issue, the security of taking … the time it takes to take it to the bank and things like that. I think as an Island, if we were completely cashless, it would be productive. There are huge costs of cash that I think are hidden from a lot of people in terms of the use and security and things like that. It is just
so much more … I had a good example today, I think: Government of Jersey still seem to be promoting the use of cheques. The one cheque I get out a year is from Government, and I have to physically go to a bank and pay it in instead of … whereas every other organisation will do it online and I do not have to go to a bank. You do not need to take the time to do it. I think there are huge efficiencies. I think my view has always been in terms about weighing it, there would be, as I think you have seen, a lot of resistance if it was mandated.
[13:45]
It would make Jersey more productive. It would give us some good P.R. (public relations). It does not give us a new industry that we can promote, which is what we are particularly focused on. There are huge benefits in companies using digital, but I do not think the time is right - personal view - to force a cashless society on people.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you have any thoughts on the black economy, if we can call it that, the grey economy?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, the shadow economy I think they call it now.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Is that what the P.R. ...
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey: Yes.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Black market it used to be.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, it is interesting because I do not know whether Government have looked at this, but we all know the typical examples. When people talk about the cost of cash and banking and payments and things, I think there is evidence you have probably already seen that quite often it is cheaper to take contactless payments than cash and then go to the bank, even if you just look at the bank fees for taking cash. I think the reality is some businesses do not use that because they do not bank the cash because they will use it to pay suppliers and other people like that and you have got to think why are some companies and individuals doing that? It is because they do not necessarily have to declare it. Having said that, Government do not have access to your bank accounts anyway, so it
is more of a perception thing. If you declare something in your tax return, Government cannot check it against your bank accounts to make that connection. Personally, I think that any reduction in the shadow economy is good for Government in terms of tax receipts. I think that is also happening as well. It would be interesting to look at the stats but we probably all know that if we buy something or are paying someone, we would rather use Revolut. We would rather … other payment brands are available. We would rather use our banking app to make a payment because if we have not got the cash on us, going into town and going to a cashpoint, getting the money, bringing it back, is quite difficult. I do not know whether anyone has looked at the size of the shadow economy in Jersey, but I did famously, I think, once get some feedback from taxi drivers who did not like the fact they were being forced to take credit cards and they preferred cash for some of those reasons as well, but the biggest driver for that is consumer preference.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you for that. It is not your area, but there is the shadow economy but then there is the illegal economy, of course, so I guess it is not a question for you but how does the drug dealer who receives cash for his or her heroin that they are selling ... how do they buy their coffee if they have only got cash?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
That feels like a trick question. It is really interesting because …
Deputy M. Tadier :
Do you have a programme for drug dealers to help?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, I used to … in the digital sector there are obviously some big proponents for cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin and there is an assumption sometimes that cryptocurrencies are anonymous. They are not necessarily as anonymous as people think, but oddly enough ... and I used to say the only people who want anonymous payments are the geeks and the crooks, because it is not just the crooks that want anonymous payments. There are people - the pseudo libertarian - who think why should Government get involved in payments? Most of us do not need anonymous payments. Most of us want private payments. I think again there is quite a lot of misinformation there because a lot of the submissions I saw to your review were saying that the reason for keeping cash is that Government cannot see what I am buying, what the transactions are, or companies cannot. The reality is companies cannot … even if you use cards, companies cannot see. Your credit card company knows, for example, that you might have spent X amount of money in Waitrose but they do not know what you bought. Your bank that issued you the credit card does not know. Visa or Mastercard do not know what you have bought because the system does not work that way. Waitrose do not know
what you have bought unless voluntarily you have signed up to a Waitrose loyalty card. This is where Tesco Clubcard came from. Making digital payments does not give anyone any data on what you have bought.
Deputy M. Tadier :
One submission we had was from … I do not need to say who it is from but I think it is a public submission, and his argument was that if a bank looking to lend you money, you are looking to borrow from a bank, they go through your statements and they can see all your transactions. If, for example, they see that you have been visiting a gambling site on a frequent basis and potentially losing a lot of money, they might say: “We are not going to lend you that money because you are a bad investment” whereas if you take out cash and then you lose it at the bookies, they may not have that issue. Is that something that you think rings true?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
That is an interesting ethical dilemma, is it not, because arguably a bank, if you are applying for it, would ask you to fill in a form and say: “What do you spend on something?” If you do not disclose that you spend X amount of money each month on gambling, then you are breaching the terms … you are lying in terms of what you have said. So, I think the bank having access to … it is, again, one of those things, is it not, about privacy versus anonymity? Most people do not have anything to hide. Generally, if you look at credit scoring, the more services and transactions, the more data they have … we have seen it Jersey, have we not, where people could not get credit cards because they could not access our electoral roll and things like that. The more data companies have, the more accurate a picture they can build up. If things are not done digitally … and this is back to this whole point of there are huge benefits from giving people access to digital payments, digital services, full stop, because quite often you get a better quality of service, better outcomes, better prices. If you can buy things online where you cannot use cash - I think you have said that before - you get better prices. So it should be more about by all means protect access in certain ways but what are we doing - I am sure we will come to it - to enable people that do not have the same access to have a level playing field?
Deputy M. Tadier :
Are you okay to carry on with the next 2 questions?
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes. The panel understands that Digital Jersey have built a relationship with the Estonian representatives who have come over to Jersey, including the ambassador. I just wanted to really hear your views on Estonia and how they have managed the adoption of digital transactions and also ensuring that vulnerable people are also protected who would otherwise be using cash.
That is a really good question. I do not have the detail for how they protect vulnerable people, but I do know that there is massive take-up of their digital identity scheme. Despite what you might think in Estonia, they do not mandate the digital bit. There is always an analogue fallback on everything, so if you do not want to use digital, you do not have to use it. One of the stats that I think is quite powerful about Estonia is that 98 per cent of prescriptions are digital. That means that the patient, shall we say, has to have either a digital I.D. (identity) card, smartcard, or they have to have it on their phone because what then happens is that their doctor will issue a prescription, they will go into a pharmacy, any pharmacy, tap their phone or card. The pharmacist will not only be able to see what the prescription is but they will be able to get information and see that this is a legitimate prescription, they can see what they should be charging for that person, what their entitlement is. They also know that medical records will have been updated and checked. There is very high adoption there. Estonia has had voting for a long time as well and they have only … online voting. They have only been able to deliver online voting - I think they have been doing it for about 12 years now - because they have a strong digital I.D. system. But what is also interesting is the digital I.D. system carries over into payments as well, so people can use their card on buses and things like that, either to identify themselves that they already have the eligibility for free travel or that they can pay using that card as well. By putting that infrastructure in nationally, it gives access to everyone to use that.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Use it, yes. I know obviously the panel have received hundreds of submissions raising concerns about the use of digital transactions and, of course, there is concerns when we see, for instance, the World Economic Forum predicating a move towards a cashless society. Do you believe there is always a need for cash as a back-up where technology fails?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Personally, no, I do not. I think it is a preference thing. I do not think it is necessary as a back-up. I know there are concerns about what happens when there are outages. I have been having to remember for a while … I went out somewhere last week for breakfast and for some reason their card payments were down. One of the advantages we have with Jersey is they normally know you and they can take a record of what it is, and I said I would pop back in and pay. So I do not think there is a need for it, and I think we have seen the benefits of moving towards it. I think it is about
… I do not necessarily believe in forcing people to take it. I think there has got to be the carrot and the stick. You have got to have the nudges. I think you were talking before about: is it a surcharge or is it a discount if somebody pays online? The fact is it is a lot cheaper if people pay online. There are still some really silly things in Jersey which cost a lot of money to both sides. It might sound …
an obvious example people talk about is if somebody is getting their utility bill via email, via PDF and they are paying by direct debit, that is saving money for the utility company because they are not printing it out, they are not putting it in the post, they are not waiting, they are not manning a cash desk for somebody to come in. So I think a discount rather than a surcharge is the right way of doing it and there are examples at the moment. You might have seen something, there is a press release that went out a couple of days ago about G.P.s (general practitioners) taking payments online. Right now, if I get a repeat prescription from my G.P., they print out a bill for £9 and put it in the post to me for me to pay. Now, I will pay them back on a bank, but there is a cost of doing that. They worked out it is probably costing them £5 in manpower, postage, delays and things like that, whereas they could just send a text message or an email and it is paid straightway. Again, that is a productivity saving. They do not need the same level of staff. They do not need the same amount of time taken on things.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
As you mentioned just before, we are probably moving towards a cashless society. When people are speaking about, for instance, money being printed, how would that evolve and change when we are moving towards a digitalised society?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, I think it would be reduced. Has not something come out a few days ago or a few weeks ago about the Treasury in the U.K. are not making new 1 pence and 2 pence coins. There have been discussions about getting rid of copper and rounding everything to the nearest 5 pence, for example, so you can use silver. I am sure there are a few people who think that is probably a W.E.F. (World Economic Forum) conspiracy as well to get rid of copper, but again it seems quite archaic having such tiny amounts of money out there. I do know that there are some people in Treasury here who want to keep cash because Jersey’s Government makes money out of cash and the float value of cash. We still have pound notes here as opposed to pound coins and things like that. Again, I think there are … the economics work slightly differently in different places and in different ways.
Deputy M. Tadier :
How does Jersey make money; do you know?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
There is some information online. I remember having words with Government quite a few years ago because it looked as if they were promoting cash because somebody had written a blog saying: “But this is great, the more cash we have in circulation, the more money …” It is effectively the float value because when you are walking around with £50 in Jersey notes in your pocket, the Government actually has the money because you have effectively bought those from Government. So they have
got the money; they are making interest on it. It is not making any interest when you have got the money sat in your pocket, so there is a float value, so to speak, of the money that is in circulation that has not been banked, so as it is floating around Government does make … I do not know how much it is. It is a reasonable amount of money. It is not earthshattering, but those figures, I think, are maintained by Treasury. You might want to ask to see what the current value is of that, but I would imagine that has been going down over the years, particularly during COVID.
Deputy M. Tadier :
It is money that would not exist otherwise because you would not buy it. You are effectively buying that off the Government.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
We do not have a central bank, which is a whole different issue. If we did not print our own money, we would only have money … we would still have pound notes and coins but there would be … sorry, sterling notes and coins but the money for that float would be going to the U.K. Treasury not to the Jersey Treasury. So that is one of the reasons. It is not just tradition that we have our own currency. Obviously we do not print it ourselves. I imagine it is done by printers like De La Rue, but there is a value to the Jersey Government of having our own notes and coins in circulation.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Also, Tony, I would just like to ask, the central bank digital currency is mentioned in a couple of the submissions, and I was wondering whether you could explain what your understanding is of that.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, I thought Sir Mark put it quite accurately when he said it is not that anyone is particularly … consumers are particularly crying out for it, because I am not sure any of us need new payment mechanisms. Most of us find that what we have in our pockets, cards, phones, things like that, work just fine. It is the central banks wanting to do it and it is back to what I have said about the value of this float and the income they get. What is interesting with central bank digital currencies - and I think I might have sent you a copy of this a while back, there was an article on it - in Europe they are looking at 2 separate central bank digital currencies, which does not sound confusing at all, does it? One of which would be accounted, so you would see transactions, but another one of which would enable you to make person-to-person payments. Now, okay, we can make person-to-person payments now with bank accounts and Revolut but that is tracked, there is an audit trail. There are ways of making payments person to person without anyone knowing about it. The U.K. invented a technology in the 1990s, I was involved in it, called Mondex. We worked closely with the Bank of England on that as well because you can imagine there had to be very high security because no one had a record of me paying money.
[14:00]
Would you believe that was having something probably the size of a mobile phone and you put your card in one end - this is before contactless, so contact, smart - I put my card in the other and we would use that device to transfer money from the chip on my card to the chip on your card and people are developing versions of central bank digital currencies for that as well. Personally, I am not sure what problem they are trying to solve. I think governments are trying to solve a problem because governments have had control of the money supply, they have had control of notes and coins. The likes of the Bank of England, they are looking to see … I think it is a control thing, how do they … and not control of our lives, not the conspiracy stuff about seeing our transactions, just control of the monetary system. Right now when it is done through the banks and is digital, they do not have quite the same control, they do not get the value of the float and also it gives them more control. If you think about payments and the numbers of people that now use an Apple wallet or a Google wallet and my bank in a way is a done pint now. I am using Apple technology. I might be using my card that … well, my card is not sitting in my Apple phone, that is a whole separate discussion about tokenisation, but when you talk about security, I do not have any worries about the security of that system and if I have got a card, this one I had anyway, it is not a prop. That card might look graphically as if it is sitting in my wallet on my Apple phone, but it is not. There is completely different number. That is the tokenisation. There is a token representing my card and that security is going through Apple. It can go through Google if you have an Android phone, but I think central bank digital currencies are the central banks looking to take some sort of control back of the money supply and I am not convinced they are ever really going to take off. They could work between banks, like an interbank transfer and things like that, but I am not sure there is a problem for consumers that it is trying to solve.
Deputy M.B. Andrews : Thank you very much.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You have touched on cryptocurrency, but do you have any comments on the development of cryptocurrency, its potential increase, becoming more mainstream in its use and Jersey’s ability to make use of developments in this area?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
It is interesting when you say about the use of it. At the beginning of Bitcoin, if you remember, people were talking like you would be buying pizzas with Bitcoin. I think anyone that looks back on statements and sees that they used Bitcoin to buy pizza 10 years ago will regret it now because it
would have been worth a lot if they had kept it. If you look at how cryptocurrencies are used now, they are not generally used transactionally. They are not used to buy things in shops. There are a few examples of that, and it is a really inefficient way of buying things in shops. If you look at the energy consumption and the cost of mining Bitcoin and the number of transactions it can handle, it is minute compared to what Visa and Mastercard and Amex can do. So it is not a good way of buying. It has been used as more of an asset class; it is more of an investment. People are using it … so when you talk about digital assets and having crypto, I think that is where it has taken off and grown. It is not being used really as a transactional currency for people to buy things in shops. There are people … we are talking to someone locally who is interested in looking at something which could be a stablecoin, so that is the … you know what stablecoins are? Whether we could have a Jersey digital pound. There are things we could do about that and there will be some people interested in that. Personally though, again, you come back to nobody has a problem really making payments, whether they are using debit cards, credit cards, cash, prepaid cards or whatever.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
I know some people have mentioned concerns about money laundering or fraud, but I would like to have your views on transactions, for instance, that we see in cash and also with digital in relation to money laundering and fraud. Do you see there being benefits with the move towards digitalisation of transactions?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes. Without going into detail, I think the fact that with digital payments you have an audit trail, you see those … this is back to what I have said about people worry about emulating cash with digital payments. It is also a very expensive way of doing it because you have to build massive security into it to make sure nobody is fraudulently creating counterfeit digital currency. Yes, by doing things digitally, there is an audit trail and, by the way, that audit trail protects a lot of consumers. They can prove that they have paid for something. Quite often if you cannot find a receipt for something, you can show a bank statement or something to show that you have paid the … it is not quite what you are talking about with fraud, I know, whereas if you have got cash, you do not have that additional record. I think the more transactions that are done digitally … that is not to say that they are not still open to fraud, but it is fraud of a different kind because there is an audit trail; there is transaction information that you can access.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Would you say there are any vulnerabilities with the digitalisation of transactions as well?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
None that I can think of. I think the vulnerabilities are more in terms of what happens if something goes down. If you look at the uptime on these things, there might be well-known examples and one thing I would say ... I am arguing with myself in a way I think. Sir Mark was talking about the recent example of the CrowdStrike. Interestingly enough, I think if you were at Gatwick Airport, some of the coffee shops like Starbucks, their tills went down in terms of taking payments. I do not think they allow cash payments anyway but there were stories of people going to a cashpoint - it was working in Gatwick - to get cash because some merchants did not take it. But these things, if you look at it as a percentage time, these are very, very small downtimes. The security, if you look at the fact that we might all have different banks providing it but the fact that all of our credit and debit cards either have Visa or Mastercard on it, or some of them Amex, those schemes have been around for decades. The security levels that are built into them as global schemes … as I started to talk about the security that goes into payments for … mobile payments, for example, phones have secure elements. They have chips in there that cannot be broken into, cannot be hacked. If you think about the chips that are on our … if you look at the development ... if you quite often look at the credit card in your pocket, there are a range of different technologies on there. If it is embossed, that is because you might go somewhere where they still have the old card reader which takes the imprint of the card, so the embossment is one technology. The actual printed stuff is another technology for someone to read out the numbers over the phone. Your cards will still have a magstripe on them. That is another technology, which very seldom would be used now but it is a back-up if you go to a location where there is a magstripe reader. All the cards have a chip on it now for contact to insert it into a card reader and they also have a contactless interface. The investment that has gone into that technology is astounding. If you compare that investment and that security and the cryptography that is used in the public key cryptography and you compare that to notes and coins, there is no comparison in terms of the security levels.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
In terms of when we are looking at the envisagement of a cashless society, obviously many stakeholders have raised concerns about privacy, for instance, being a major concern for them, but when we are looking at credit lenders and, for instance, if we are looking at platforms that are relied upon for transactions, when would we likely see those entities have to maybe exchange information with Government or government agencies?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Can you be specific? Give me an example, for example.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
For instance, if they were transactions that were happening with credit lenders or maybe for a platform, some people are concerned that the Government at one point in time in the future may try and have access to those transactions. Currently, for instance, in what event would the Government …
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
I think there are very good protections there legally. If you look at G.D.P.R. (General Data Protection Regulation) and you look at the agreements, we all sign … we do not always read the terms and conditions of everything we sign, which is perhaps a different issue, but when you are signing up to an agreement with your bank for a credit card or a bank account, they will provide certain information that, for example, if you go into arrears that they might provide that information to a credit reference agency. That is part of the system which protects the system; it protects people as well. The credit reference agency will not see what you are buying … back to what I am saying. They will not see where you are spending money, but they will see if you default on a credit card payment or a mortgage payment and that is important for the system. The less bad debts we have in the system, the less impact there is on the economy and we all pay a price for that, as we have seen. I think the sharing of information with Government, again, that is very well established. Banks do not share information with Government. That would be massive overreach. There is legislation to protect the privacy of individuals. Generally, what you see in the world of technology … I always think it is interesting for a lot of people who ... because of how easy it is to use smartphones and things like that, most people assume that in a digital world everything is connected to everything else. Most people will assume all your patient records are connected and everything else. Oddly, the more you understand technology, the more you appreciate that even today most things are not connected to anything else. It is mostly siloed. Facebook’s data is just connected to Facebook, Apple’s data is within Apple, Twitter’s data is within Twitter, Google’s data within Google, et cetera, and so you have not got that connectivity to go and see it. You would need legislation. I am sure there is some, but anyway they would need to go … someone would need to go … Government would need to go to a court to get a judge to say: “We have the right to go to someone’s bank and access their records.” I think there are a lot of existing protections there and in many ways the digital side just gives you more control. It is interesting when you look at data. You talk about Estonia. One of the things that I have always liked about the Estonian system is if someone accesses your data from government, they have to use their digital I.D. as a civil servant, whoever, to access it. You as an individual can get to see the details of anyone who has looked at your data. It is a bit like a government version of LinkedIn. If you go on LinkedIn, you can see who has viewed your profile. You can see who has accessed your data and they have a process that if you think somebody has accessed your data that had no right to access your data, you can lodge a formal complaint and investigation. A classic example they talked about in Estonia was a senior politician was admitted to hospital, 2 nurses that had no connection with his care used their access on the system to view his medical records and that was spotted, and they were disciplined or fired because of it. That is back to the audit trail, the audit trail of data, so that gives people a lot of control if you can see who has accessed your data.
Deputy M. Tadier :
One question: apart from people who do not have bank accounts, can you think of any compelling reason for continuing the use of cash?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
It depends what you define as compelling. Consumer choice, I think, is compelling. If someone wants to use cash, they will use cash. My parents will still carry cash. They now know not to give me cash. If they owe me money, just do a bank transfer, because what would I do with it? I do not think I have been to a cash machine … I think I have been to a cash machine once since before COVID and many of us can live in a cashless society if we want to. I do not think there is a compelling reason for protecting cash apart from consumer choice, apart from concern among certain groups.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Let us say, if I were the Chief Minister and in a few years’ time I was to say: “I want to make Jersey a cashless society. I have got a plan to transition people who have not got bank accounts to make sure there is digital inclusion”, would you try and talk me out of that or would you offer me … I suppose in your professional role you ...
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
I think my view personally … so I have been … I will not say who they are. I have been approached by various people over the years from industry and within Government to say: “Should we not be pushing for a cashless society?” My view has always been there are bigger priorities. There are bigger prizes to be had from using technology and also it is quite a big battle. I think you have seen already if someone did that … and I am sure she would not mind me saying it, I used to joke: “I do not want to go into battle with Sarah Ferguson about protecting the rights of older people”, and it is not just older people. It is a bit of a lazy stereotype. Lots of older people use the technology all the time, but again I come back to what would that give us? Jersey is so analogue in so many different places, particularly in the public sector, sadly. There are many things I would rather focus on and what you would focus on ... so if we had digital I.D. and there are lots of people who think digital I.D. is a conspiracy, but we have registration cards, we have driving licences, we have entitlements. The entitlements we have with work and housing licences are a bigger issue in Jersey than in lots of places. I would build up the infrastructure we have to the point where you make it really easy for people. It is the carrot and the stick. I would focus on the carrot rather than the stick.
We will at some point be talking, hopefully, to customs officers and I know when we went to one of the … I think it was the money laundering recently with the review of MONEYVAL, they were talking about they have got sniffer dogs at the ports to detect cash coming into Jersey, cash which is being used … it is a red flag because it probably means it is being used for buying drugs. It is interesting they do not necessarily sniff for drugs; they sniff for cash.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, there is quite often drugs on the cash, if you read some of the stories.
[14:15]
Deputy M. Tadier :
I am just wondering what the quick wins would be immediately if we were a cashless society. Presumably, it would be very difficult for criminals who rely on cash to make a living and to use Jersey for nefarious purposes.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, I think there would be benefits like that but, again, it depends on how you can enforce that cashless society. Somebody could go to the U.K., get hold of cash, unless you want to search everyone at the border, French tourists for example coming in and they have got hold of currency and things like that. This is an example to me of whenever I have been asked about this by people and say: “Surely, Tony, you would want to support this?” Like I said to you before, I spent 5 years of my career in the 1990s developing electronic cash. Do not get me wrong, I would absolutely love it if Jersey was cashless. There are huge benefits but, frankly, it would just be such a nightmare to push that through when there are lots of other things we can do around digital health and digital I.D. and government systems online and sharing of data and things like that. Again, if you get to a point where we have the infrastructure that people have access to those services and know how to use it ... it is giving them the skills to use these things and the confidence to use them and the confidence to use it so that they move over by themselves. That is much more attractive to me than banning cash and forcing everyone to use digital.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Incidentally, it would not necessarily be a ban on cash; it might just be that nowhere accepts cash.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, but again, you cannot … nowhere legitimate accepts cash.
Yes, that is right.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
It is very difficult to stamp this stuff out even if you really wanted to.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thanks. Okay. We can look at that a little more. What do you think about, in terms of the transition, those Islanders who either will not or who need help adopting digital? What is your role in that, do you think? What could your role be?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
A good example you talked about earlier on and that was about our work with Mastercard and Community Savings here. What happened with Community Savings is they are already providing
… and this is an interesting thing to go to, they were already providing prepaid debit cards to, I think, about 300 unbanked families here and what happened is that the provider of those prepaid debit cards gave 3 months’ notice to Community Savings that they were withdrawing support for Jersey as a jurisdiction. That is when you can go back to … I think payments are quite a big strategic issue in Jersey. Certain things do not work here. We have our own payments gateway in a company called CityPay here, which we do not support. Personally, I find it disgraceful that Government does not use a local company to do their payments even when that local company does a lot of big U.K. councils, including Westminster, ironically, and Government give all of their payments business to a U.K. payment gateway. If we supported a local payment gateway, that would enable it to offer a wider range of services and step in where things like Stripe do not work. But coming back to Community Savings, we worked with Mastercard to identify an alternative of somebody who could come in and support Jersey, support Community Savings and get those cards back out there, and I think supporting the unbanked is really important. Banking is quite unusual. As somebody who has spent the first 7½ years of their career working for a bank, I have been quite surprised at how hard it is to get a bank account and it is not just an individual thing, it is businesses. New digital companies find it difficult. Any new businesses do it. It is not the fault of the banks. Because we are in an international finance centre, because we have to arguably have heavier regulation than lots of places, there are downsides to that. One of the downsides is the checks and balances that have to go through the banking system mean that it is much harder to find a bank account, but there are other technologies, such as prepaid debit cards. One of the reasons we signed an M.O.U. (memorandum of understanding) with Mastercard and that came out of … we introduced Mastercard to Government when the … I think you were talking about the spend local card coming in. We introduced Mastercard to Government to help with that whole process. Mastercard thought it was really interesting what happened in Jersey, but having that strategic relationship with Mastercard to
help us with payments because if payments got more difficult … we are already seeing the fact that it is harder to get a credit card here, it is harder to get a bank account, it is harder to get payment services working in Jersey. That is quite fundamental to the economy and that has to be taken really seriously, so the more we can … I am sure many people do not realise, we cannot take for granted the digital payments infrastructure we have. We have to build relationships - Mastercard is a good one - and make sure that people have access to new services. So our role in many ways has been to build those relationships off-Island, to build the … we have some knowledge within the team, but we have contacts with other people. We used to have a fintech ambassador called Dave Birch. I think I sent you one of his articles. He talks about central bank digital currency. It is getting advice. It has been great to see Government have gone out to tender to get somebody to look at an open finance strategy. We do not have open banking in Jersey whereas they have it in the U.K. and across Europe. There is lots of things that I think as an Island we have to make more of an effort to understand how it works and what the implications are. I do not know whether it came up this morning, the U.K. now has a dedicated payment system regulator. That was a brand new thing that was created probably about 8 years ago because they recognised how important payments were and yet our payments we passport in from the U.K. The J.F.S.C. (Jersey Financial Services Commission) does not particularly look at payments. That is not a criticism, they have just not had to, but I think even separate to the review of cash, Jersey needs a payment strategy separately to make sure that people in Jersey are always going to have access. Finally on that, I would also say there is the skills. The inclusion is giving people not only access but teaching them how to use this stuff, those basic citizen digital skills about how you can use PayByPhone, how you can do your tax return online, how you can make payments. I think that is really important and I do not think we do enough on digital inclusion.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You may have answered this obliquely, but do you think that Government need a plan to manage the decline in the use or cash or do you think it can just take a laissez-faire attitude?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Unless you think, as I said in my submission, that you have to protect access to cash for certain services, I would say it does not need a plan. Probably someone in Treasury already has an assumption that the value of the float and the currency is going down anyway so you cannot assume that money is there, but I think it will happen by itself anyway. It would be interesting ... there was talk about the survey later on saying what the … if you looked at most businesses and said as a percentage of their business how much is cash now, that will have been shrinking down and down and down, and our figures will not be much different from the U.K. I think interestingly enough there was an acceleration during COVID. Cash usage popped up a bit as people got back to normal, but it is on that downward trajectory. I do not think Government need a strategy for that; I think they
need a strategy for making sure that as the world of payments develop, that it still works. What if suddenly something came in? At the moment there are some issues with the European Union and Apple and that is involving mobile payments, and something could happen which stops … Apple has already threatened to withdraw support across Europe for certain functions. We do not have enough control. We do not have any control really as a small jurisdiction to what is going to happen globally, but we need to understand what is happening. A bit like G.D.P.R., we decided we were going to have adequacy with the E.U. (European Union) but also with the U.K. post-Brexit as well. That is what I am saying, payments are quite … I do think the government financial services team in the Economy Department are looking at this increasingly. They were the ones looking at it when we could not get access to credit cards, but what I would say is that payments, full stop, are a big strategic issue for anywhere, for citizens, for businesses, for the future of commerce, and in many ways I think cash is a tiny element of it. As I said, it is more of a consumer protection type issue. Hopefully that makes sense.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Good. Thank you. Max, have you got any more questions at the moment?
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes, I have just got one question about the local spend card that was utilised during COVID-19. Did you have any information in terms of what people were transacting or was it kept privately?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
We did not see any information. I have always assumed that there was more information available that perhaps people did not want released because I know there was a lot of understandable push to people to spend it in certain ways. As I said, we got involved fairly late in the day, so we were able to make the introduction to Mastercard. It was quite obviously a big project. It had to be rushed. It is a shame in a way. I think if we had delayed it a few weeks we could have had a branded card for Jersey rather than the thing we had. We could have fixed some of the problems of enabling people to spend it online, because remember ironically you could not spend it online. I suspect the figures would have shown that lots of people did just go and use it in the supermarket and spend. I think there would have been a fair amount of information. I know that the information they would have had is what sectors it was spent in, so how much was spent in petrol stations and supermarkets and restaurants and things like that. If they did not release that information, I can only assume because it would send a message that it did not fit with whatever the strategy was at the time, but that is another thing, once you put that money out there, you can ask people to spend it in a certain way but you cannot guarantee because it is a prepaid debit card. They can spend it anywhere that accepts it. I think the only restriction was not allowing people to spend it online but that was more of a technical issue that there was not quite time to resolve.
Is the technology available to place constraints on consumption in certain places in Jersey if you really wanted to?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, definitely. In fact, the technology is there. Interestingly enough because - and again, I do not make a criticism of this - it had to be fairly rushed to go into it, those cards could not be reloaded by individuals; they could only be reloaded by Government. Now, that was partly a regulation issue as well and licensing in Jersey, but yes, you can … I think you will have seen it years ago when people tried to do it with … I think the U.K. when it was paying allowances to immigrants and things like that, they could say: “You can spend it on food. You cannot spend it …” This is back to what I said before about what information you can control. You can say which merchant categories it was spent in or used but you cannot stop people from buying, individuals. You might say: “You cannot use it in off-licences, you can use it in supermarkets”, but you cannot necessarily stop people buying alcohol in a supermarket, or you can make sure it is not used in bars and restaurants, it is only used in shops, things like that. There are ways you can do it if you wanted to. Quite often the reason it has been stopped when people have tried to do it is, again, breach of human rights, forcing people to do things in a certain way.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Can I ask, have you been approached as the Chief Executive of Digital Jersey since the local spend card was used to maybe deliver any project, maybe to be supporting agriculture or any other specific areas, within the Island economy.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, lots of them. We are doing initiatives between the Economy Department and farmers about the data farmers provide, so there are lots and lots of individual projects. Interestingly enough, on the spend local card we made the introduction to Mastercard and Mastercard went back to Government to C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) and said: “We work with governments around the world, what to do?” and C.L.S. said: “We think this is a better fit with Digital Jersey.” But we have been working with C.L.S. and looking at opportunities, with things like Community Savings is backed, I think, by Social Security, is it not, and by C.L.S. as well. We are always … we quite often get approached by Government as an external source of knowledge on how these things can work and quite often we will put them in touch with someone locally or off-Island who has got that expertise if we do not have it ourselves.
Deputy M.B. Andrews :
Yes, perfect. Thank you.
Deputy M. Tadier :
We are coming on to 2.30 p.m., so that is the time we are supposed to finish. If we go on 5 minutes more, would that be a problem?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey: No, fine. It is fine with me.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I am not saying we will but … can I just ask about some of the - if I can call them - carveouts? You have said that generally Government should not mandate the acceptance of cash but there may be essential services or regulated services or monopolies. Can you give us some examples? For example, if I give you some, would that include taxis, buses, the ferry company, electricity company?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes. I think things that Government regulate, so you regulate taxis, regulate transport. A good example with taxis is that Government, I think probably about 6 years ago, forced all the taxi drivers to accept credit and debit cards and contactless cards. Government do that all the time. I think making sure that somebody can get in a taxi and use cash makes sense and Government regulate that already, so it is not as if you are going into something that is completely private sector that Government do not have a role in. To be honest, the examples I used were fairly off the top of my head, but again, if I want to go and buy a coffee, if I go into somewhere that will not take cash and I want to use cash, I know I can go down the road to another coffee shop that does it. If I want to pay my - and hopefully they will not criticise me for using them as an example - electricity bill or my phone bill … phone is different but let us say electricity bill or water bill, I am assuming I can go down to the offices of Jersey Electricity or Jersey Water and pay cash to a cashier and if they said: “We are only accepting direct debit”, that would be different.
Deputy M. Tadier :
That is even though you have told us it is probably a lot more onerous for a big company like that to operate cash than a coffee shop which might cater for a lot of …
[14:30]
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
We have had examples before. I do not know whether … you would not have been in the Assembly but you would have been. It was JT, I think, was planning 6 years ago to eliminate paper billing.
Now, that would have saved them a lot of money. It is expensive. It is expensive from a systems perspective that you have to be able to do it. There is security. There is the cost of living and things like that and, if I am honest, I thought that was wrong, certainly at the time, probably still would now, that somebody, I do not know who ... it was not you, was it, that brought it to the Assembly? I need to check as it is, but somebody brought it to the Assembly …
Deputy M. Tadier :
It was probably Senator Ferguson, but I would have been there or thereabout supporting, I think.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, but somebody brought it to the Assembly and JT … obviously because JT is 100 per cent Government owned, it was slightly different issue. It would have been interesting to know if it had been … would Government have done the same thing if it was Sure or Airtel, probably not, but the Assembly instructed JT to not get rid of paper. Now, what is a real shame about that, and I do not know whether it was known, to be fair, is JT was working with us on a plan to reinvest the cost saving they would have made to put basic digital skills training into all the parishes, put P.C.s (personal computers) into the parishes so people could be shown how to … the idea was …
Deputy M. Tadier : Parish staff you mean.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Well, I do not know where the money … some of it would have gone to equipment and things like that, but the idea is if you were suddenly told that we are going to get rid of the bill for that but you could go into a parish and they would help you set up an email account and you could be sent it as an email or they say: “We can send an email to one of your relatives with the bill if you want and you can get hold of a copy, they can print it out”, but Government intervened and stopped JT from doing that. Now again, there would have been a view that that is Government owned, Government have more of a say in it and the Assembly brought that proposition. I think anything that Government own, anything there is a monopoly, anything you think is an essential service, I can understand you protecting that.
Deputy M. Tadier :
By extension, I know you have talked about the additional running costs for using cash, but is it reasonable for a transport company to say you are going to charge someone more if they do not have a bank account and they can only use cash?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Interestingly enough, I had an argument at the time, I think when I was working with Liberty Bus, for them to introduce contactless credit and debit cards because obviously initially, when I got here certainly, there was the AvanchiCard, but you could not get on and pay with a mobile phone. You could not get on with credit or debit. I do not know whether it is still the case but when they introduced it there were 3 different sets of pricing. There was pricing for …
Deputy M. Tadier : There are still 3.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Are there still 3? They will say there are different costs and things like. Again, I think it is very easy from the outside to understand a payment model and I think one of the problems for Liberty Bus is they will allow cash. Are you still allowed to pay cash on the bus?
Deputy M. Tadier :
You are, but it is a premium you pay.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
There is a premium to pay? Personally, I am not in favour of lots and lots of different confusing pricing, but I can understand that, again, to be fair to Liberty Bus, you do not need a bank account to have an AvanchiCard. You need a bank account to have a credit or a debit card but you do not need a bank account to have a … so they will say that: “We want to encourage people to get an AvanchiCard and they can come to the bus station, they can come to the desk, and they can top it up.” So credit to Liberty Bus, I think, they are offering people an alternative that can be accessed universally.
Deputy M. Tadier :
You do need a minimum of £10 to top up but hopefully people will have £10. Thank you, but I know you are not a representative for Liberty Bus.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
No, no, no, but again, I did not like the differential pricing between credit and debit and the AvanchiCard. I thought that was confusing.
Deputy M. Tadier :
I am thinking a bit of London as well. I think you can still pay cash, but you pay for your ticket in advance, so you do not actually go up to a driver. It is all done in advance so you can pay however you want whether it is pre-load an Oyster card, you can tap with contactless.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
Yes, so I think on London buses, you cannot pay on the bus in cash. You have to go to a ticket desk or something and hand over cash and charge up, but again they have … I cannot remember, have they still got Oyster?
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, still got Oyster but a lot of people … there is no difference now to paying on contact.
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
That is the other thing. I think the thing about differential pricing is why would you force people to keep the AvanchiCard in their pocket rather than move to a credit and debit, which would just work. That is where it starts to get complicated.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Yes, indeed. I think that is all I have to ask. Max, have you got anything?
Deputy M.B. Andrews : No.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Have you got anything to ask us or any general comments before we finish?
Chief Executive Officer, Digital Jersey:
No, not really. I am just looking at the points I had added for myself to talk about. I think we talked about most of it. I do recognise there is a challenge around digital inclusion and I must admit I only saw that it was a bigger issue than I thought when COVID hit. A separate issue, Digital Jersey ran a scheme with the mobile operators to provide free broadband to people who did not have it at home, school kids who could access it so they could carry on doing their studies at home. I think there is a bigger digital inclusion issue than many of us realise in terms of access to certain services. I do not know the detail. I imagine Community Savings would in terms of the unbanked. I think there is further we could go as a community, like supporting Community Savings, which I know are already supported. There is no reason why anyone, if they want to, should not be able to access some sort of prepaid card solution that they can use but it is about teaching. It is not about forcing them how to use it. It is showing them the benefits of doing it. As I said before, if you have an email address, if you can pay for things online, if you have got a bank account, you will get direct debit rates, you will get discounts on things, you can shop online and get cheaper prices; why would you not want to help people do that? I think probably digital inclusion is something we do not look at enough in
Jersey. It is not within D.J.’s (Digital Jersey’s) remit but when we have been forced to look at it with things like COVID, I realised it was a bigger issue than I thought it was.
Deputy M. Tadier :
Thank you, Tony, for coming to speak to us. We are good to close. Thanks.
[14:36]