States Meeting Transcript - 13/09/2006

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

WEDNESDAY, 13th SEPTEMBER 2006

PUBLIC BUSINESS (continued) ..............................................................5

1. Annual Business Plan 2007 (P.92/2006) (continued)..................................5

The Deputy Bailiff :............................................................................5 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):.........................................5

1. Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): .......................................5

1. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:.......................................................5
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ...................................................5
3. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John : ..........................................................6
4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ...........................................................6
5. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : .........................................................6
6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:........................................................6
7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................7
8. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:..........................................................7
9. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ...........................................................7
10. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:......................................................7
11. Senator T.J. Le Main:.................................................................7

2. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):.....................12

1. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................14
2. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour:...............................................14
3. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................14
4. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................14
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................15
6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................15
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................15
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................15
9. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................16

10. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence:..........................................16
11. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................16 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................18

3. Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):................................18 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................19

1. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................20 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................20
2. Senator P.F. Routier (Rapporteur):......................................................21
3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................22
4. Deputy P.N. Troy ......................................................................22
5. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................23
6. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................23
7. Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................24
8. Connétable T.J. du Feu of St. Peter:....................................................24

9. The Deputy ofSt. Clement: ............................................................24
10. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................25
11. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................25
12. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................26
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................26
14. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................27
15. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier : ................................................27
16. Senator S Syvret:....................................................................28
17. Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:.................................................29
18. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:...........................................................29
19. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:..................................................29
20. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................30 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................30
21. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................31
22. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................31
23. Connétable D.F. Gray ofSt.Clement:...............................................32
24. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................32
25. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................33 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................34

4. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ..........35 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................36

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................36
2. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................37
3. Deputy P.N. Troy : ......................................................................37
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................37
5. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................37
6. Deputy P.N. Troy : ......................................................................37
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................37
8. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................38
9. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................38
10. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye: .............................................................38 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................40

5. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................40 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................41

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................41 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................43

LUNCHTIME ADJOURNMENT...............................................................44

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................44
3. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier : ......................................................44
4. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ....................46 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................46 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................47

6. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................47 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................48
7. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development): 48

1. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................49
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................50
3. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................50
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................50
5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................50
6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................50

7. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................51
8. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade : ..................................................51
9. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: ................................................................51 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................53

8. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: ................................................................53

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................54
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................54
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................55
4. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................55
5. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:...............................................55
6. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................55
7. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................56
8. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................56
9. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................56 Deputy A.J.H. MacLean: .....................................................................57 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................59

9. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Treasury and Resources Minister - rapporteur):............60

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................62
2. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................63
3. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................64
4. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................64 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................66

10. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................67 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................67

1. The Connétable of St. Clement:......................................................68
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................68
3. The Deputy of St. Peter:.............................................................69
4. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:...........................................................70
5. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye: .............................................................70
6. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................70
7. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................71
8. Senator M.E. Vibert :................................................................71
9. Deputy G.P Southern : ...............................................................73
10. Deputy J.J. Huet:..................................................................74
11. Deputy S.Power:..................................................................74
12. Deputy S.Pitman:..................................................................75
13. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:.............................................................75
14. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................76
15. Senator F.H. Walker :..............................................................76 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................77 The Connétable of St. Clement:..............................................................77

11. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................77

1. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................78
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................79
3. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................80 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................80

NOTIFICATION OF LODGED PROPOSITIONS............................................80

2. The Deputy Bailiff .......................................................................81

CONSIDERATION OF ADJOURNMENT.....................................................81 Senator S. Syvret:............................................................................81

The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................82

PUBLIC BUSINESS (continued ) ............................................................82

3. Annual Business Plan 2007 (P.92/2006) (continued )................................82 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................82

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................82 The Deputy Bailiff :...........................................................................82

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

PUBLIC BUSINESS (continued)

1. Annual Business Plan 2007 (P.92/2006) (continued) The Deputy Bailiff :

So the Assembly will now resume debate upon the business plan and we have come to paragraph (a)(vi) Housing Objectives, which will be proposed by Senator Le Main.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

Just before we start, may I raise a matter of business? Yesterday during oral question time the Minister for Home Affairs said that she would supply us with a document giving the figures that were mentioned during oral question time. I do not see those figures on our desk yet. Could I ask when they may be forthcoming?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

Yes, Sir, indeed there were a number of documents including the recommendations, of course, that have been completed up at the prison in terms of suicide and self harm and that is quite a bit of information. It is being collated today and will be in Members' pigeonholes later on. Thank you.

1. Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

Good morning and I hope you are all going to be nice to me. I had prepared considerable notes but have been told to make it very short and sweet. Thus, I will do, Sir, and then I propose my objectives for the next few years which are very achievable. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are those objectives seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak on those objectives?

1. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour :

We will try and pick up something from the written word, Sir, rather than the spoken one. In the performance criteria, about a year ago, the then Housing Committee lodged a document about the formation of a management agency. That was subsequently withdrawn and I see in the first bullet point that it talks about States approval for the proposed changes to the management estates rental housing stock and the question that flows from that, Sir, is what happened to the management agency? Has that been ditched? It is not going to happen because that debate has never taken place? The reason I raise that point, Sir, is that it has proved cost-effective for agencies to do it on an arm's length basis with accountability to government, rather than government themselves and that has been done in other places. I would ask the Minister if he could give some response to that?

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

I would just like to ask the Minister under objective 3, the shared equity scheme, when he thinks that will be coming forward, and whether or not instead of "or other similar scheme" he might consider changing that "or" in their investigations, to "and other schemes". For example, in the United Kingdom there is a scheme whereby companies are now taking out properties as part of their portfolios to bolster their insurance schemes for pensions, et cetera. They are encouraging people to rent those and by renting them, the people that do so for a long period of time establish a portion of equity through their rental, giving them an opportunity over a long period of time to build-up the funds necessary to enable a first deposit on those properties. So it is a scheme where initiative is given to the companies to invest in property, to bolster their pensions and it is also a scheme which enables people who are just renting property to make sure that that rental money is just not flushed down the toilet every month as in many other cases. So I wondered if perhaps the department could look at that? Also, whether or not he envisages much sell-off of States property. For example, we had some controversy over the La Falla ise property and maybe perhaps he might want to discuss that; how that proved to be; whether it was a good thing or not and how much we got for it.

3. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John :

I  just wondered if the Minister could also perhaps expand upon what Deputy Le Claire was mentioning earlier which is about ownership. Shared equity is mentioned but the selling-off of property is not mentioned terribly deeply and if more property is sold-off, that good value is attained and that money is then reinstated in housing stock and maintenance. I know it has been talked about but it is not mentioned in the report here. Perhaps you could expand upon that in your summing up, Sir. Thank you.

4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

I know the Minister for Housing has been in the House for a long time but I really think he is doing a disservice not only to the House this morning but also to the members of the public and also those who listen to the radio, because I do believe it is incumbent upon the Minister to give some idea of where he intends to go. Particularly maybe he could give an answer as to how he is going to seek to improve the management and long-term sustainability of the States rental housing stock, that is part of the objectives. The members of the public are not aware of what we have in front of us and I also know that we did meet with the Minister at Scrutiny. We had a good meeting. It was very valuable, and we do value the opportunity of having dialogue with the Minister for Housing but - also to let other people know - maybe he could tell us a little bit more about how he is going to reduce the list of the rent arrears. So, what action is being taken to reduce the rent arrears? Thank you, Sir.

5. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

I would like to ask the Minister for Housing how he proposes in the next 5 years to increase the volume of sheltered housing stock on the Island and what his plans are in terms of a split between socially-owned or States-owned sheltered housing stock and private housing stock? Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any Member wish to speak? Deputy Martin.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Just briefly, Sir. I am again disappointed with the opening speech or non-opening speech of the Minister for Housing because we are asked to agree some objectives here which basically tell us absolutely nothing. I am really worried about the agreement with the States of Jersey Treasury that Housing is permitted to retain a sufficient amount for its rental income to ensure that it is self- sufficient and able to maintain housing stock. We all know that for years, - and it happens to be the

same Minister who was a Committee President - he did not seem to fight the corner hard enough and we have about £89 million worth of refurbishments that need to be done to our housing stock. As I say, I hope that the Minister will give me some assurance that these will be carried out in the next year and if he is not satisfied with the Council of Ministers' decision that he brings this back to the House. We have now got to sort this out and I am really not satisfied that it is just going to be an agreement with the Treasury because, at the moment, the Treasury is never giving enough to social rented houses and they are falling down which is costing us a lot more in the long run. Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak?

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Not a repetition of previous questions but certainly specifically I would like to know what proportion of the States rental stock this Minister intends to sell-off, because that is important. Secondly, I note that there is no mention in here of security of tenure, nor of rental deposit schemes, which I know has been rejected in the past but I believe needs to be re-examined. Finally, I would like to know where he talks about shared equity or other similar scheme; how wide is he thinking? What sort of schemes has he got in mind? I would encourage him to think as widely as possible.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak?

8. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier :

I would like to follow on a little from Deputy Martin's speech. I would like to know from the Minister how much does he think a year is ideal to maintain the housing stock? Is £6 million enough? Thank you.

9. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

I would like to ask the Minister if he would confirm that the Community Bank, which he is setting up for the public, has offered to help with a rental deposit scheme and they will shortly be in communication on this? Thank you.

10. Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade :

Can the Minister explain his current policy in relation to housing trusts, where instructions have been given that they do not proceed with any agreements at the moment on the new social rented housing sites? Can he expand upon that policy and explain what he is doing to address the progression of social rented units?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak? Very well. I call upon the Minister to reply.

11. Senator T.J. Le Main:

I suppose really I ought to start from the issue of the lack of funding that we have had over a number of years and now that my Assistant Minister and I because I have probably referred to it as I, but it is the Assistant Minister and I that have been fully involved in this. We are relooking at the whole issue of the business of the Housing Department; the relationship with trusts; the whole spectrum of where we are with the private sector and every form we are looking at. So we start off on an excellent footing, Sir, now that we have got £6 million a year from 2007 to 2011. This has enabled us to commence in 2007 the refurbishment which, in total, is costed at in excess of £80 million. A programme of work is achievable within the 10 years required and it has been devised and it is ready to go. Refurbishment work will, therefore, start in 2007 and subject to further funding will be completed to the decent U.K. home standard by 2016. Now, the other issue, Sir, is planning for homes. Planning for homes is in itself being delivered by the Planning and Environment Department in conjunction with the Housing Department. Much of the information necessary for the development of the report comes from our department and the Population Office and, as I say, officers of these departments are working closely to be able to deliver a draft of the report very shortly. It should have been ready in June but has been delayed through various issues at the Planning Department which have now been resolved and it should be ready, hopefully, in September – by the end of this month, or by October. It will absolutely and categorically show that there is a growing demand for sheltered accommodation and what may be referred to as last time homes in regard to design, so that existing owners of family homes whose children have moved on can downsize into more appropriate accommodation, releasing equity which they can utilise to enjoy their golden years while recycling their family home back in the market for a new family to occupy. As I say, Sir, we have a total of £30 million which has been provided by the Treasury from 2007 to 2011. However, it is quite clear that in order to achieve the aim of refurbishing all the stock by 2016, more funding is required. There is approximately another £50 million of work which is unfunded. The strategic use of the Housing portfolio as outlined in our forthcoming Property Plan which is virtually ready now but is with the Treasury and will be with Members very soon - has provided, and will hopefully provide, a number of solutions to the various pressing needs of additional funding, together with a need to promote wider home ownership. This document sets out the full refurbishment programme and the options for increasing home ownership. It also draws

attention to the need to maintain the property in good order once refurbished. The department needs to be able to retain sufficient of its income and the average any property company, such as a trust, would be retaining 20 per cent of its income and, this is not the case at present due to the heavy demand on the department's revenue from the rental subsidy schemes. I cannot wait to see the back of the rental subsidy scheme. That has been the cause of all the major problems in the running of the Housing Department's business. As I say, Sir, the Property Plan that I alluded to has now been completed. The document is with the Treasury for financial appraisal and comment. When this has been concluded, the Plan will be considered by the Council of Ministers and distributed to States Members and, of course, to the Social Affairs Scrutiny Panel. I believe, Sir, this is an exciting document and I look forward to sharing it with Members as soon as I can. May I say, Sir, I look forward again to working with all Members on this Property Plan because we cannot do it on our own as I have reiterated - the sharing of help and advice from all Members is most welcome. I welcome all input from every Member to assist the Assistant Minister and myself in putting forward policies that are going to be good for the people of this Island. Now, the Property Plan, as I say, is nearly ready but we are now at the point of reviewing and implementing some new strategies for the provision of social housing. This is being worked on at the moment. It will include the role that the trusts are playing. The setting of fair rents we do not believe fair rents should be set by the Housing Department. It includes what Deputy Breckon is asking: whether we should have a management company, or if we should privatise, et cetera; the whole issue of social housing in the Island, because lists are dropping - apart, as I say, for the elderly's, sheltered needs -and we want to make sure that we are working together with the trusts and that the trusts are working with us. At the moment, I am a little uneasy at the behaviour or otherwise of one or 2 trusts and the issue is that we need, I believe, Sir, to have a common policy that brings them in line with what the States Assembly requires of them. As I say, it is only a tickling of the issues. Nothing serious, but I believe, Sir, that there are issues that need to be addressed and that we will, by September/October, have another document ready for this Assembly to assimilate, to look at and to be shared and worked with on the Social Affairs Scrutiny Panel. Now, Sir, we are fully committed to having a shared equity home ownership scheme in this Island. It is top priority but I have to say we already have part of a shared equity scheme. We have seen in the last few months the sale of 18 homes in Le Squez, 23 in Le Marais in the last 12 months, and of course in these sales 10 per cent of the future equity value of all those homes is returned to the States on the first onward sale. Shared equity is something that I have very seriously considered and which features significantly in the Property Plan. Similarly, Sir, various discount schemes have been looked at. These are also being investigated and expanded upon within the Plan. I believe, Sir, that Housing has a very busy and exciting period ahead of it and I am delighted to report that we are already on the way to delivering many of our objectives. As Minister for Housing I still remain responsible for the Housing Law and Regulations until the development of the new Migration Law. There are 2 objectives linked to that part of my responsibilities. One is to introduce policies which ensure more equality in entitlement to accommodation by 2008. Equity and social inclusion are some of the key touch stones in the development of the Migration Law and policies and will be considered at each stage subject to meeting the overall objective of migration to ensure that economic growth is balanced against the demands on the resources of the Island. I will work with other Ministers on the Migration Advisory Group in developing a Migration Law which will increase equity in entitlement to accommodation. This will also include a 10-year qualification period, subject to the conditions being right and only in the last 2 or 3 weeks I have had another update and relook at whether we should reduce the 13 year period to 12 I have to say that I am uncomfortable, at present, in reducing at this time and I shall wait until either the end of the year or early next year to consider it again. In relation to Deputy Southern , it is vital that we introduce the security of tenure legislation in 2007. It is in our objectives. It gives the tenants the rights they deserve and introduce proper notice periods. It is also my hope - and the reason for this delay - that security of tenure will be extended to the unqualified sector where many of the problems exist. We are assured that legally we can have in the security of tenure legislation something that will resolve a considerable amount of the issues regarding unqualifieds'. In regard to deposits, yes the Assistant Minister and I have met with Brian Curtis from the Community Bank and he is more than happy to do the deposits. One of the issues that I am concerned about is the location and the premises currently occupied by the Community Bank. I have been pressing and attempting but, at the moment, there is no room to have them located in

proper facilities which could be the new premises at the bottom of St. Saviour's Hill - the Bridge - but unfortunately I am told there is no room. The Community Bank has a great role to play for the ordinary people of this Island and I think it is rather unfair, at the moment, that we let them struggle to cope on their own. I think that one of my big priorities in the next few weeks is to go back to the Bridge, to get Brian Curtis back in, and I shall be talking to the Property Services, to Eric Le Ruez to see whether we can relocate him in proper premises. In Ireland, for instance, all over the place, in every town, every village virtually there is a community bank and they have got some decent premises that people can access.

Deputy J.J. Huet:

If I might just interrupt just for one moment to assure the Minister that the Waterfront Enterprise Board, as soon as everything is up and going, is more than happy to give premises down at the Waterfront to the Community Bank but obviously this is not right immediately. It will be as soon as possible.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

That is excellent news and I will take up the point. As I say a draft of the proposed security of tenure legislation, is now being considered and that will be in place for 2007. So I think I have answered the questions of Deputy Breckon and the management agency and their involvement. But I am very, very happy to include Deputy Breckon in any discussions and any point of view he may have. I am going to be very positive to say that I want Members to really help and assist us in their views and points on many of the issues. Now, Deputy Le Claire mentioned shared equity. I think I have done that. We will take up the point; we will invite Deputy Le Claire in to speak to us about the various issues that he has read about or heard about and will go through that with him. In regard to La Falla ise I am pleased to be able to announce that La Falla ise has been sold and we received a magnificent sum of £675,000 for it. It really was an old property of absolutely no use to the Housing Department. It needed a fortune spending on it to bring it up to modern day standards. We will now be able to work with Connétable of St. Brelade and others in refurbishment of Clos de Quennevais right along the Red Houses where we will make them into an over-50s housing estate and the assistance of the Deputies of St. Brelade and the Connétable is going to be very valuable to us in some of the work we are going to do there, particularly in the front of the estate where we believe it could be a landmark garden area for the area and perhaps an ideal place for Senator Cohen to place a nice sculpture. [Laughter] The Deputy of St. John was on about home ownership and the sell off of stock. Yes, it is going to be proposed and I cannot come out with too much of what is in the Property Plan being worked upon at the moment but it is anticipated to sell off some stock to create more home ownership. A small amount of stock, hopefully, will be sold which has no place to play in a modern social housing policy and the money has to be reinvested back into existing stock. Deputy Hill wanted to know about States rental stock long-term. My view is, and it is certainly coming out from my department and officers, that we carry far too much stock - much bigger than we really need - and we can reduce  it and make it more easily manageable and maintainable. As for the rent arrears, Sir, the rent arrears are on the low end of the scale compared to many of the councils and the housing departments in the U.K. There always will be a problem with rent arrears and the rent arrears are not solely about people that cannot or will not pay their rent: many of the rental payments are paid. For instance, someone will be paid on the 1st of the month and their rent is due on the 25th of the previous month so they are always in arrears, but only on paper. We also have to remind ourselves that we are dealing with people that really have some difficulties and we have all kinds of issues. We have a hugely professional staff, at the moment, who are very kind and assist all our clients in many ways on repayment schemes, et cetera. So I am not really too bothered about that although, as I say, our management has changed. We have now delegated individual members of staff to deal with a lower amount of clients so that they can attend to these arrears in a more efficient and quicker manner, so that people are not allowed to creep up and increase their arrears without having some assistance from the department. Deputy Power: I think I have answered his question about increased sheltered housing. I am pleased to say that the Assistant Minister, the Planning Minister and I attended with the Connétable s on Monday pleading

with them to try to assist us in finding land for sheltered homes. I can assure this Assembly that we are in desperate need of sheltered accommodation for people with mobility and medical problems and it has to be ground floor accommodation. The Connétable s have a great role to play in the provision of such and I am looking forward to the full co-operation of the Connétable s in assisting, not only their own parishioners, but assisting the Island in placing people that are able to move closer to families - sons and daughters - so they can seek and have assistance from their families while they are in old age. The position is, at this present time, we have around 16 per cent of our population in retirement and by 2030, 30 per cent of the population in Jersey will be in active retirement. So we have a huge increasing problem in finding sheltered homes in the Parishes and, as I have said on several occasions, Sir, the issue is that we are pulling in people from various Parishes now where there is not accommodation for them to remain in the Parish of their birth or where they have lived all their lives or where they have children and family. It is heartbreaking to pull in people from those country Parishes and have to place them in places like the high rises of the Le Marais, Convent Court, Caesarea Court and places like that. So I am pleading with the Connétable s and I am pleading with this Assembly, as members of their municipalities and their Parishes, to support the Connétable s in assisting us to be able to have the provision of sheltered homes.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

I wonder, on a point of information, could the Housing Minister inform us, is that really a search for green zone land that he is engaged in?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, unfortunately that will be the case. We are rather hoping, and the Planning Minister and I have been working on this, and it may very well be that around the villages, the churches, the shops, the Connétable s may be able to find some land, affordable land, that we can assist these people.

Deputy S. Power:

Could I ask the Minister to clarify, if the Minister would give way for a second? I asked a question about sheltered housing and the Minister is answering some of my queries on sheltered housing but the problem is there is no reference in the business plan to any capital provision for sheltered housing. My question was how does he propose to provide sheltered housing when there is no capital provision? Is it going to be under States control, public control or private control? That was my question.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The issue is that we would propose an arrangement similar to St. Martin and Trinity , such that the Parishes would borrow the money and they would have it over 25 years. So there is no States capital funding required at all. They would meet the requirements of what is happening now with the trusts. They would have a guarantee of anything over a certain percentage so that they would have a safeguard. At the moment, Sir, we need anything between 400 and 500 units of combination sheltered homes. within the next 18 months, 400 to 500. It is a very serious situation. I meet virtually on a daily basis elderly people who are in real difficulty and we are able to do this if we can just put everything together without any capital costs to the States. It can be done. So I urge everyone to get behind the Connétable s. I urge the Connétable s to go forward and assist us in this. Deputy Martin mentioned retaining sufficient income. I think I have replied to that that once we get rid of the subsidy scheme - which has made me go grey in the last 18 months - like any other property company, we ought to be able to retain sufficient income out of our rental to maintain, and I aim to go for that. Deputy Southern asked what proportion is proposed. I am not prepared to say that at the moment but very soon you will have an opportunity to look at the Property Plan within a matter of probably 3 or 4 weeks and I would want to work with Deputy Southern and other Members on what we are proposing. I think the security of tenure has been answered. Home ownership. Deputy Pitman, I think it is 20 per cent of the income. Deputy Huet, I have answered in regard to banks. Deputy Troy mentioned no agreements on trusts. That is incorrect, Sir. All trusts that seek some comfort from the States, have to have an agreement in place. I am well aware of one trust, at the moment, that evolved with a development and has not sought the comfort of the States. That is not a problem. They are privately funding it, that is okay; but if their bankers want the comfort of the States, then they have to have an agreement. Sir, I think I have answered all the questions.

Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement :

Could I ask for clarification from the Minister regarding his

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , but I think you have had your opportunity to speak. It is too late now.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I would like to say that I have an open door policy at the Housing Department and I urge Members to come and talk to us about any of the issues. I would far sooner discuss it around the table than read about arguments in the media. We are not going to get very far that way. At the beginning of this year I invited all new States Members to come and talk to us and we were going to give them some site visits and all that. I would like to reiterate, Sir, that I would make that offer again, that if there are any Members that have not had an update or otherwise on current Housing policy; where we are, questions that need to be asked - then I am more than happy to invite them for a day out including going to visit sites and issues regarding housing. As I say, Sir, I would like to thank all Members for their assistance and I would like to so propose.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

May I have a point of clarification?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Yes, you did speak so you can ask for clarification if you think there is something.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister mentioned a trust that has been involved in a private development. Is it a trust that the department has had dealings with in the past and was he prepared to name that trust? Secondly, he talked about being uncomfortable about further reduction in the qualification period down to 12 years. Could he give any reasons as why he is suffering discomfort?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , but I do not think those are points of clarification, either of your speech or of his. hey are simply asking the Minister

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I am quite happy to talk to the Deputy after and give him the answers, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well. Now, all those in favour of adopting the objectives pursuant to paragraph (a)(vi) kindly show? Those against? The objectives are adopted. Then we come to paragraph (a)(vii) which are the Planning and Environment Objectives which were proposed by the Minister.

2. Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

The business plan period will be an exciting and challenging time for Planning and Environment as we strive to deliver important new objectives with far reaching consequences for the Island against a very tight budget. The objectives on pages 81 to 83 are designed to improve our environment and to ensure that we use natural resources in a sustainable way. To see development that is sustainable; that is contemporary; that respects our traditional values and that, at the same time, enables the creation of a thriving Island economy and community. We want to promote a high quality environment encompassing good design and architecture and delivering pride to all. Our key objectives span the total range of the business plan but I will draw attention to some of the more significant items. The new Planning Law was introduced in July and this will greatly improve the planning process. However, I wish to see our resources more efficiently utilised and to assist in this endeavour and to reduce red tape, I will shortly be publishing proposals to deliver a raft of exemptions from the planning process. Many exemptions will focus on the promotion of environmentally sensitive construction and renewable energy. We are working extremely hard on the Waterfront Project and we are making very exciting progress on a number of fronts. I am building a spirit of co-operation between the Waterfront Enterprise Board and Planning and we are working to deliver an accelerated timetable. I hope to provide further information to Members very soon. The St. Helier development and regeneration strategy is well under way. A consultant team led by Edaw is nearing completion of the first draft of the strategy. This project, the first comprehensive plan for St. Helier will look at how best the development opportunities in the town can be exploited to contribute to its regeneration. In particular, it will bring forward viable proposals for the delivery of the town park and provide direction for the future use for Fort Regent. We will continue to implement many of the findings of the excellent Chris Shepley planning review, wisely commissioned by my predecessor, Senator Ozouf . A scoping report for the review of the 2002 Island plan will be completed later this week for discussion at the Council of Ministers. It will address, in particular, the objectives of the States economy growth plan and the rural economic strategy. It will also address the Island's housing needs on which I am working closely with the Housing Minister and the Parishes, particularly in the provision of social retirement housing. The new plan will consolidate the planning policy work being undertaken for the Waterfront east of Albert and the St. Helier development and regeneration strategy. It is imperative that these areas are brought together holistically as they are wholly inter-dependent. The revised Island Pan should be presented to the States during 2008. Draft legislation for the control of high hedges is presently with the Law Officers Department and I hope to be able to bring this to the House for debate before the end of 2006. We have set about changing the way Planning works, centred around the simple principle that good buildings start with good design. To this end, I have issued a set of Ministers' Design Principles and have set up an internal design review group to provide a design view to applicants. Further changes will be delivered through supplementary planning guidance. The percentage for art supplementary planning guidance is at public consultation stage and its implementation has the potential to significantly improve the display of public art. A design statement supplementary planning guidance requiring applicants to provide detailed design statements is in final draft. An archaeology supplementary planning guidance will be completed in a few weeks and this will lead to the appointment of a part-time field archaeologist in the coming months. Additionally, the Design for Homes supplementary planning guidance is presently the subject of ongoing work by the department and the Environmental Scrutiny Panel. I have sought to raise the status of our heritage buildings and with this in mind have set up a new panel, the Ministerial Registration and Listing Advisory Group. It is important, however, that old buildings remain viable and my department will continue to support the Forts and Towers Project. I will also continue to support the conservation and enhancement of the built fabric of our important

buildings through the Historic Buildings Grant Scheme. We will introduce third party appeals into the planning system as the Council of Ministers is now committed to funding this objective. I will also bring forward a review of the building bylaws which, subject to resources, will introduce new lifetime home standards of buildings to ensure that new development takes account of the specific needs of our aging population. I recently launched the first tranche of biodiversity action plans. This will be followed-through and added to during the plan period. I also intend to bring forward further ecological sites for designation of sites of special interest together with the sites of archaeological, historic and architectural value. I will also expect to achieve continued progress in improving the environmental and economic performance of our agricultural land, building on the success of the countryside renewal scheme which is progressively creating and restoring important landscape features such as hedgerows, field margins and footpaths. My department delivers important regulatory roles such as the prevention of water pollution and we intend to widen its remit by bringing into effect the Waste Management Law and bringing forward for debate the Water Resources Law following the completion of the investigatory work into the origin of deep ground water. We will also be working with health protection to address the need for legislation around the adoption of an air quality strategy. Progress has been made in reducing the cost of meteorology, both by reducing staffing by 25 per cent and by achieving financial contributions from Guernsey. This programme must continue and we will also examine the scope of a joint Channel Islands service. Later in 2006 we will issue a draft energy policy for Jersey. My department is leading on this inter-departmental piece of work that has enormous strategic significance for Jersey. We will also be bringing forward proposals for environmental taxes and associated spending packages that are intended to improve the environmental performance of Jersey. Finally, I intend to launch Eco Active' at the end of this year. This will be a major and continuing programme aimed at showing Islanders how each and every one of us can make a real contribution to our environmental well being. How small acts multiplied together will make a real difference. Eco Active' will act as a hub to draw a multiplicity of environmental initiatives into a cohesive plan to which Islanders can sign up. The Eco Active' programme, led by its website, will provide a range of tools to enable Islanders to make more of their environmentally conscious choices. I will endeavour to answer any questions Members may have and I will try to incorporate their reasonable views in the way we develop the objectives of the business plan.

The Deputy Bailiff :#

Are those objectives seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak?

1. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Thank you, Minister. Very comprehensive but there is an area that I would like you to take on board for me in your supplementary planning

The Deputy Bailiff : Through the chair, please.

Deputy J.B. Fox:

Sorry, Sir. Supplementary planning guide in your current review is in relation

The Deputy Bailiff : Through the chair.

Deputy J.B. Fox:

My apologies to you. It is the excitement of having all this information all at once. My apologies to you, Sir. Now, the important area that does need to be on the upper front of most people's minds is the inclusion of amenity space, especially for our young people. It is an area, with the enthusiasm of the developers, that often gets reduced or put on the sideline and it is an area that then subsequently affects all of us in one way or another from law and order to the environmental conditions that we live and work in, et cetera. So if part of that review could be subject to looking at that particular area for the future well being and refurbishment, I think that we will all benefit. Thank you, Sir.

2. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour :

Amongst the many worthy objectives, I particularly support the appointment of the archaeology field officer in 2007. I would like to ask the Minister, despite the verbal assurances given, whether he could explain why resources were not identified for the 2 remaining provisions of the Planning and Building Law to be brought into force as was agreed in amendment 472 of the Strategic Plan. Many thanks.

3. Senator B.E. Shenton:

One of the objectives is to implement the Water Resources (Jersey) Law, a law that does not exist. One of the initiatives is to bring in the Water Resources (Jersey) Law by the end of 2006. Would the Minister please clarify whether he is going to do that? Thank you.

4. Deputy S. Power:

My question is related to third party appeals. Can the Minister confirm to the Assembly when he believes he will have a fund or a budget for third party appeals and dangerous structures? Can the Minister also make a comment on whether he feels comfortable the proposed structure for third party appeals should come under the Royal Court or whether it might be more practical to have an independent Jersey third party appeals panel? Finally, Sir, I would like clarification from the Minister that as lead member on the Designer Homes Panel there is a wealth of information available to this panel on scrutiny in areas such as design for homes, amenity spaces, room sizes, and so on. I notice that both the Housing Minister and the Planning Minister have discussed bringing forward their planning for homes document and I think that there is so much commonality in what the Housing Minister is doing, the Planning Minister himself is doing and what we are doing on Scrutiny, there might be room for a combined meeting at least on one occasion.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if I could ask for a series of little detailed answers. In terms of the exemptions that the Minister is introducing, will these exemptions extend to the installation of UPVC (Unplasticised Polyvinyl Chloride) windows or is it still wood for wood? Secondly, Sir, in terms of mapping the geography of the Island, is he happy that there has been a resolution to the rumblings about so- called monopolies in the digital mapping area and is he happy that access to that information is well managed? Thirdly, Sir, it has been raised, and without wishing to pre-empt the findings of the scrutiny panel, there is a real issue about the status - legal and policy wise - of development briefs. Would he bring the House up to date as to where he is in regard to development briefs as nothing seems to be appearing in the objectives. Fourthly, Sir, how does the archaeologist relate to the archaeologist employed by the Jersey Heritage Trust. Is this duplication or could somehow we have supported theirs in some way to have achieved the same end? Fifthly, Sir, the very vexed question which he knows goes on and on and I know his department is trying to wrestle with it: agricultural sheds. Is a policy imminent in that regard? This has been around a long, long time and again I see no mention.

6. The Deputy of St. John :

It is just a couple of minor things I would like to ask the Minister. One in particular was, is any consideration being given for rezoning for sheltered housing specifically? I know that Deputy Power mentioned it earlier to the Housing Minister. I wonder if he could say something about that. Also, the Minister mentions, under resource and allocation on page 81, that there will be a reduction in staff in both enforcement and building control. Is this as a result of a reduction in bureaucracy particularly with regard to application for small items - minor works, signage, that sort of thing? If it is, I would be interested to know because, at the moment, there is still quite a lot involved in minor works and the like. Is that where your reduction in staffing is coming from? Thank you, Sir.

7. Senator J.L. Perchard:

The Minister has engaged the services of Hoskins as a planning supremo. Could he inform the Assembly as to who will be paying the bill for Hoskins and under what mechanism will he be extracting the necessary funding for paying of this architect other than the normal planning fees charged to an applicant?

8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Sir, should the Senator not have declared that he is a director of W.E.B. (Waterfront Enterprise Board) in asking that question and that is an issue which will have to be dealt with by W.E.B.? Should he not have declared that?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I do not think we know enough about it. The Minister will deal with it when he gets here. Deputy Duhamel.

9. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

I note that the House has yet to discuss the mineral strategy debate. It is not something that is itemised as something to be done in 2007 but I would ask the Minister to bear that in mind and to put it on his list of things to do to bring it to this House at the earliest opportunity.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any Member wish to speak?

10. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

Sorry, I was just gathering my thoughts. I was wondering if the Minister could clarify his position on what I will call the interior/spatial standards, essentially. Certainly some of the issues we have had with the St. Lawrence houses, as he is well aware, have been the bit classified as design of the house. I know from the exterior he is working on this very strongly but is he also making sure that the houses - specifically H2 style houses - are coming through which are designed for people to live rather than just to have a shelter under a roof, if you see what I mean. In other words, can we move away from the rabbit style of design that we are currently seeing?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any Member wish to speak? Very well. I call upon the Minister to reply.

11. Senator F.E. Cohen:

I will do my best to answer those questions. Deputy Fox asked whether we are giving proper regard to amenity space. Amenity space is a very important issue. It is very important in relation to amenity space to ensure that it does not just exist but that it is usable and I am working very hard in relation to the provision of amenity space on the Waterfront to provide, firstly, additional amenity space over what was in some quarters originally anticipated and, secondly, usable amenity space. It is important that amenity space reflects weather and that it can be used all the year around, and as far as youth provision is concerned on the Waterfront, we are already working directly on the provision of additional youth space theme. Deputy Scott Warr en raised the question of the archaeology field officer. The archaeology field officer is something I committed to long before I was elected. Jersey Heritage Trust was very keen to promote the concept of an archaeology field officer. Ideally I would like to have a full-time field officer but, quite simply, we do not have the money for it. Therefore, what I have done is nothing short of cobbling together a few pounds from one element of the budget and a few pounds from another element of the budget to provide a small sum that is only enough to employ a part-time field officer on a consultancy basis. The idea will be that large scale developers will be expected to pay for their own archaeology, but small individual developments will come under the archaeology field officer, who clearly will have to prioritise very limited time. What I am hoping is that over a period of time, we will show the absolute necessity for a permanent archaeology field officer and that in time we will be able to convince the House that an appointment of a permanent archaeology field officer is essential. The other question Deputy Scott Warr en raised was in relation to why was money not identified for third party appeals initially. I am afraid I do not know the answer but what I do know is that the Council of Ministers is absolutely committed to the implementation of third party appeals and we will be moving towards implementation of third party appeals in 2007. Senator Shenton raised the issue of the Water Resources Law and seemed to think that there was some inconsistency in the speech that I made a little earlier. Just to clarify the position, currently, as I think everyone knows, we are engaged in underground drilling which we hope will prove once and for all whether or not there are underground water links to France. It is only when we have the answer to that question that we will

be able to determine how we should be monitoring and managing our water resources, but as soon as the results of those tests are out, I do intend to move forward in adapting the Water Resources Law that was withdrawn earlier this year to meet whatever the outcome of those tests is. One thing I will make clear, the thresholds I do intend to increase very significantly. I consider that the thresholds in the old Law were too low. I am aware that Deputy Troy had tabled an amendment and I will be taking that into account in the preparation of a new Water Resources Law. Deputy Power raised also the question of third party appeals and when will the system begin. I think I have answered that - 2007. With regard to an independent third party appeals panel, I understand that this was rejected previously on cost grounds. I think we are where we are and we have to proceed on the presently proposed basis. He also suggested that we have a meeting, a combined meeting - with Housing on Design for Homes' and my response to that is what a jolly good idea and I will arrange that. I have already offered to discuss the issue of the Design for Homes' policies and how we get to the end of this with the Chairman of the Environment Scrutiny Panel. I am hoping that we will have a Scrutiny Panel meeting with the planning officers to try and resolve the issues. Deputy Le Hérissier raised the question of whether the exemptions will allow the substitution of plastic windows for wood. Well, I am sorry to tell him that I am firmly a wood man and I have reservations generally about plastic windows. There are certain situations where they are acceptable but I am certainly not going to be promoting a policy of swapping existing wooden windows for plastic windows. He raised the issue also of digital mapping. I have some concerns about the issue of digital mapping and how the programme is funded. It seems a strange concept to have, effectively, a commercial partner where the burden of further investment, from what I can see, seems to fall on the public purse and I have asked for a review of that and the Chief Officer has that in hand. Deputy Le Hérissier raised the issue of development briefs as well. I have concerns about development briefs to the extent that I have asked for advice from the Law Officers' Department to ensure that any development briefs in the future do not unreasonably bind the Planning Department and the Planning Minister. Development briefs have a function and a very useful function. Very clearly it is worthwhile that the developer knows what is likely to be expected. My concern is where the Planning Department has an intention of creating that atmosphere but that somehow or other turns into a development application that complies with a development brief that is far away from the intention of the Planning Department, and I want to make sure we are not locked into that situation. As far as a field archaeologist and relationship with Jersey Heritage Trust, let me assure the House that the field archaeologist, whoever he or she may be - and we have not advertised yet - will be working very closely with Jersey Heritage Trust. The Planning Department has a very close relationship with Jersey Heritage Trust through the functions that Heritage Trust provides for us under a service level agreement in relation to historic buildings. There will be an ongoing relationship between our field archaeologist and the archaeologist at Jersey Heritage Trust. Policy on agricultural sheds - yes, I am working on this. I have some ideas that I think are quite novel. We have not got very far. There is a great deal of work going on in the Planning Department in developing much needed policies. This is one of them and I will be reporting back to the House in the coming months on agricultural sheds. The Deputy of St. John raised the issue of sheltered housing. As the Housing Minister has made very clear this morning, there is an urgent, immediate demand for at least 400 social retirement houses for elderly people in the Island. I believe that the Planning Department has an absolute obligation to assist the Housing Minister in housing these members of our community who have given so much during their lives. I intend to do everything I possibly can to facilitate the Housing Minister's objectives in housing the retired people of the Island in an appropriate way as quickly as possible and will be doing everything to assist him in this endeavour. He also asked a question about reduction in staff in development control. I did not quite understand the question - my fault, not his - all I can say on this is that we are doing what we can to apply our limited resources to important planning matters. That means that the way we are addressing this is in many parts but the key will be these exemptions. Not only are we trying to reduce red tape with these exemptions but we are trying to remove the time burden from the Planning Department so that the officers can concentrate on more important issues. When you see

the list - we are still working on it - that we are going to publish shortly, I think you will see how we have tried to address that. Senator Perchard asked a question about who is paying for Hopkins. The Hopkins team have injected a whole new raft of ideas - some absolutely brilliant, into the Waterfront process. Some of the ideas are elegantly simplistic and some of them you look at and you think: "Why did I not think of that?" but without Hopkins we would not have achieved them and they are an absolutely essential part of the process. That deals with how we are going to pay for them which is the bigger problem. So far, when the Hopkins team have been blue sky thinking - i.e. they have been looking at the area from a distance - the Planning Department has been meeting the cost. This is very expensive for the Planning Department and we cannot afford to carry on doing that but we cannot ruin the Waterfront for the sake of, by comparison, a very small sum of money. So, I am seeking to put together a method for paying for Hopkins blue sky work as we move forward. The majority of the Hopkins work, once we have got past the blue sky work, will concentrate on advising on individual schemes and I have made it very clear to the Waterfront developers from the start that we will be expecting to recharge the Waterfront developers for the Hopkins costs. The department is presently working on a proper formula so that the developers will sign up to in order that we can ensure that the burden does not fall on the public purse. Do remember - and it is really important to appreciate this - that the Hopkins team have been appointed to provide architectural advice on the whole of the Waterfront. That means on every new building, every public space, every public realm, ranging from the Weighbridge right the way through to La Frigate. My intention is to retain Hopkins until the doors of the buildings are open. I do not want to be in a position where Hopkins, effectively, approve initial plans which later get done down and we end up with poor buildings. But it will be expensive. Deputy Duhamel raised the question of the mineral strategy. This is on my list but I am afraid I have not got a way forward on this yet, but as soon as I do so I will inform the House and I will update Deputy Duhamel on it at our next regular meeting. Deputy Le Fondré raised the question of interior space and the design of homes. This is a very important issue. There is great concern in the Island that houses – flats - are being approved

with inadequately-sized rooms and this is something that cannot go on. I have some concerns about the current proposals in the Design for Homes' document and that is the reason why I intend to meet with Deputy Duhamel and the Environment Scrutiny Panel so that we can bring this forward and assure Islanders that homes in the future will have adequate space. Deputy Duhamel and I have very similar views on this and we will ensure that buildings are adequately designed in terms of room sizes. I hope that has answered all the questions.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well. All those in favour of adopting paragraph (a)(vii), kindly show. Those against. Paragraph (a)(vii) is adopted. We come next to paragraph (a)(viii), the Social Security Objectives. They will be proposed by the Minister, Senator Routier.

3. Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):

I have to say it gives me great pleasure to propose the Social Security objectives this year because it is going to be a really exciting year for the department. My stated aim and that of the department is to help people to achieve and maintain financial independence which of course extends to supporting those unable to support themselves. The objectives underlying this aim are to support people to achieve and maintain an acceptable standard of living. Also, to provide opportunities for higher skills and better employment, and help employers and employees to work well together for their mutual benefit, and the economy of the Island. For the department to deliver high quality services now and in the future. The business plan itself lays out what we shall be doing in 2007 to fulfil those objectives and I would like to perhaps draw Members' attention just to a few of those tasks. Whatever new initiatives we are pursuing, the day-to-day operations of the department have to be of utmost importance. In 2005, for instance, the department paid out in excess of £183 million

in benefits and pensions. The delivery of benefits to those that are entitled to them in the right amount and on time remains our chief objective, but as well as delivering those benefits, the department collects approximately £137 million of contributions in an efficient and cost-effective manner and with the highest standard of customer care. While that is our business as usual, the department never stands still and 2007 will be, as I said, an enormous year of change. Next year we will introduce the new income support system - a task that simply cannot be underestimated - pulling together the various social support mechanisms into a single transparent, equitable safety net. The draft law which Members have, which is a straightforward and flexible piece of enabling legislation, was lodged last month and we aim to debate this during next month. The detail of how the system will work is subject, of course, to consultation which will be published in a few weeks' time. I hope as many people as possible will take the opportunity to read the document and to feed back their opinions to us. The data collection that will be required for the modelling and the setting of rates will be carried out over the coming months and that will obviously be key to the proposals for the rates. Those rates and how the system will work will be lodged with the States in the form of Regulations in March of next year. The successful implementation of income support will be the major focus of the department for the coming year, but next year we will also see the development of the next phase of employment legislation. Now that the Employment Forum is wrapping up its consultation into redundancy and business transfer issues, it will be making proposals to me by the end of the year and the department will work upon law drafting through 2007. Towards the end of the year the Forum will also commence consultation into family friendly working practices. We also plan to take any action necessary as a result of the review currently being carried out by Professor Stafford of Nottingham University in respect of incapacity benefits. We will also develop modern health and safety Regulations for and with the construction industry. Importantly, we will be working closely with the Health and Social Services Department to develop the new direction for primary health care in the Island. Last, but by no means least, we will bring forward to the States, proposals for the winter fuel payment scheme and implement any scheme which the States approve in time for payments to be made for the winter of 2007/2008. We plan to do that after consideration and assessment of all options and by providing Members with plain, straightforward facts and funding requirements that Members will need to be able to make a rational and considered decision. While I have the opportunity, Sir, I would like to pay tribute and extend my thanks to the dedication of the staff of the department and in particular the previous controller, Anne Esterson,

whose hard work, leadership and vision, developed the department into the modern customer- focussed and efficient service we have today, one that I am confident will be able to cope with the huge pressures facing it in the coming years. As I say, it is with a sense of great excitement and great pride that I propose our business objectives for the coming year.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is it seconded? [Seconded] There is an amendment to those objectives in the name of Senator Shenton and I will ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Greffier of the States:

In paragraph (a)(viii), after the words "pages 94 and 95 of the annex" insert the words "accepting objective 1 on page 94 of the annex, for the words "winter fuel payment for pensioners introduced in 2007", substitute the words "agreement reached by the Council of Ministers on an appropriate reallocation of expenditure within existing States expenditure limits by February 2007 to fund a new winter fuel payment for pensioners with the scheme introduced by April 2007."

The Deputy Bailiff :

Chief Minister, this is a matter where you are bringing an amendment to this amendment. Is that right?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister): Yes, Sir, we are.

The Deputy Bailiff : Senator Shenton.

1. Senator B.E. Shenton:

We are today, and yesterday, debating the business plan. The business plan was set by the Strategic Plan and yesterday I asked the Chief Minister the following question: Can the Chief Minister confirm that the Council of Ministers is charged with delivering the Strategic Plan as passed by the States Assembly and not altered in any way? The answer from the Chief Minister was emphatically: "Yes." The Council of Ministers is charged with delivering the Strategic Plan. Now, in most of the Strategic Plan, this is fairly straightforward because they wrote most of it and it was doing what they wanted to do. Here we have an amendment that clearly states: "Introduce in early 2007 - early 2007 - a winter fuel payment based on the U.K. system for all pensioners resident in Jersey." Now, the Council of Ministers were charged with delivering that and it seems to me that in terms of this new Ministerial government they have fallen at the first fence because they have made no attempt whatsoever to deliver what was decided by the States Assembly. This is not about the winter fuel allowance per se because we have not debated the winter fuel allowance yet, and the winter fuel allowance that is passed by the States Assembly may alter slightly from what I perceive it should be. What we are faced with here is a Council of Ministers that says that it is going to carry out what we ask it to do in the Strategic Plan and then blatantly refuse to do so. The reason that it blatantly refuse to do so is because it has gone off to its Chief Officers and the Chief Officers have said: "Oh no, we cannot do that. The timeframe is not right." Well, the Strategic Plan was passed months ago and they have done no work yet. I do not know how many people have seen the film The Stepford Wives where wives were brainwashed to do whatever their husbands wanted - a brilliant concept in my case - well, what we have ended up with is the Stepford Ministers. The Stepford Ministers that go off and do whatever their Chief Officers want and do not act as Ministers at all. So, the reason I have brought the amendment is simply because all the way through the strategic debate, the Chief Minister said: "We will do whatever the States Assembly ask us to do." The States Assembly have asked them to do something. They have not delivered. As a result of that, if we have a harsh winter, people will find it tough. Electricity bills have gone through the roof; oil prices are through the roof; gas bills are through the roof. It is very expensive to live in Jersey and it is getting more and more expensive, and yet this winter they will just have to grin and bear it because the Council of Ministers has failed to deliver. This is probably the first thing they have been asked to deliver outside what was regular within the plan and they have failed. So, I ask this House to accept this amendment, force the Council of Ministers to do what they should be doing and make sure that pensioners get a retrospective payment this April to cover their high

heating costs. Thank you. The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded] There is an amendment to the amendment and I will ask the Greffier to read that amendment.

The Greffier of the States:

For the words "by April 2007" substitute the words "by November 2007."

Senator F.H. Walker :

Can I ask that Senator Routier act as rapporteur on this amendment?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well. Senator Routier.

2. Senator P.F. Routier (Rapporteur):

Thank you, Sir. Firstly, I need to make it abundantly clear that the Council of Ministers and I want to introduce this winter fuel payment as soon as practical and we will. That is exactly what we will do. It is not because the Council is trying to backtrack on the decision of the Strategic Plan. We are charged to bring it forward but, simply, what is being asked of us in April is just unachievable. I hope I can take it for granted that Members want to introduce a scheme which is fit for purpose after due consideration of what all the options are and after a decision made by this House, and have all the facts available to them. I do not expect that if any Minister was to bring forward a proposition, without all that having taken place, that Scrutiny would allow that to happen, because that is what we would be facing if we try to put this through without the due process taking place. As I said, the Council of Ministers remains committed to the introduction of a winter fuel payment scheme in time for the claimants to be paid for winter of 2007. To reflect this strong commitment, we have decided, rather than oppose Senator Shenton's well-meaning - but I am afraid it is misguided and impractical - amendment, that we would seek to amend it to November 2007. Implementing a new scheme for November; even that will be a significant challenge for the department which already faces the enormous task of implementing the income support system next year. Members will see by the timetable contained in the report to the amendment that it is tight. Perhaps if Members would just like to go through the process in the report which explains what needs to happen to get a benefit into place. October of 2006: we are talking about the options going to the Council of Ministers; November 2006, the preferred option would be lodged with the States; January 2007 - because you have to leave a 6-week period, so we are into January - the proposition would be debated by the States. That is just the basic principles. Then, we have to get the law drafting done. That starts in January and we should have it back with the law drafting brief; then law drafting commences and we would be in a position to lodge a law in May. That is just plain, simple facts of the process, the things that need to happen. So, another 6-week period, July, then we have the debate of the Law. It goes off to Privy Council; it comes back and we can do the actual Regulations which should be fairly straightforward because we know all the details of that and the scheme can be introduced in November. These are not just imaginary things in which the Council has just failed to do any work. We have tried to do some work and it just does not stack up that we can get it in place for April of next year. That timetable does not even reflect all the work that has to go on within the departments, with the new computer system: to deliver it and get all the data together, also communicating with all the benefit recipients. All that has to go on as well, and of course there is staff training. Because I am not someone who just reacts to a bit of a poster on a wall if I can do things; things must be done and all those sorts of things, a bit of rhetoric going around in the report that has been attached to this amendment. I am a guy who likes to get on and do things and I do have a "can do" approach to deliver things. So, I try to think out of the box and try to achieve it in a different way and that was to think about perhaps attaching an additional payment to the Christmas Bonus scheme but, of course, that does not work, unfortunately. Firstly, if we were to attach something to the Christmas Bonus scheme, the Christmas Bonus is paid in November of 2007. So, that does not achieve any more than what we are suggesting, but the main reason for not using the Christmas Bonus scheme is because it delivers for different people than the Senator is wanting to do - to focus it on pensioners living in the Island - because the Christmas Bonus is also delivered to people who do not live in the Island. It is delivered to people who are on other benefits as well. So, unfortunately, it just does not stack-up. It pays it to millionaires as well and to people of all ages who have other benefits. If, for instance, the proposition - our amendment - was not successful and Senator Shenton's amendment was successful and the House agreed with it, if we were to give each person who currently receives a Christmas Bonus £200, for

instance, which is the U.K. fuel payment, that would cost £3.6 million. Even if it would be £50 it would cost over £900,000. When I think back to the original debate when we were talking about the amounts, I looked at the Hansard report of the debate, and if I may just quote some of the comments which Senator Shenton made. This is Senator Shenton: "Now, what I said in my proposition is that it should be based on the U.K. system. It does not say it should be equivalent to or have the same amounts of money. It should just be based on the UK system." Of course, our benefit system does not relate anything like the U.K. benefit system. In the report, it goes on to say: It should be non-means tested with higher payments for people over 80." So, even using the Christmas Bonus scheme, it would be difficult to achieve that as well. This is Senator Shenton again: "So, I was a little bit surprised, bearing in mind that the Council of Ministers does understand what a Strategic Plan is, that it should come back to me and say we cannot support this because of cost." This is the important bit: "Well, I never said how much I wanted to pay pensioners. This was just a vision document. If we took it to a ridiculous level and paid pensioners £10, that would come to about £140,000 a year." Those comments from Senator Shenton do make you wonder how we are going to proceed because I have met with Senator Shenton to discuss this matter and although he was saying we should reflect what happens in the U.K., the U.K. system starts from the age of 60 and we have discussed it quite openly and said: "Well, we think it should be 65" so there is a lot of detail to be worked through. I have to say that it does question some of the tactics that were used during that debate to get it through, to sway the House. I would say it is a debating tactic: some have said to me it is mischievous, but I would not go as far as that. As I said before, this is not a debate about whether we introduce a winter fuel payment scheme. We are committed to doing it. This is a choice between rushing through a scheme in a slap dash manner with no consideration of the consequences or whether we take a little time to think through our options and to come to a sensible, reasoned solution that achieves what Members and the public want. The Senator, quite rightly, commented about the fuel prices that have gone up even last year. We have got to a situation where we are just about to up-rate our pensions for this October. Of course, the pension up-rating is the earnings index. It is above cost of living. Of course, if it was just cost of living, that would have already reflected the winter fuel increases that happened last year so last year's winter fuel increase will have been reflected in the indices already. But the increase that the pensioners will be getting will be above cost of living. It will be at 3.3 per cent as opposed to the 2.9 per cent, which is the cost of living increase. So, there is that differential being continued to be made. So, pensioners will be protected a bit more. Well, they are protected from last year's increase, certainly, in winter fuel increases and the differential between the cost of living and the earnings index will also protect them a little bit more. As I say, we are committed to bringing forward a winter fuel allowance in an appropriate timescale. I would suggest to Members that we need to do this properly and I would ask Members to support the amendment.