States Meeting Transcript - 20/06/2006

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 20th JUNE 2006

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. ..................................4 PETITIONS.......................................................................................4

1. Fields 190 and 192, Rue de la Sergente, St. Brelade : petition (P.75/2006)..............5

1.1 Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade:............................................................5 The Bailiff :....................................................................................5

QUESTIONS......................................................................................5

2. Written Questions........................................................................5

3. OralQuestions...........................................................................9

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the land required for an enclosed in vessel composting facility at La Collette:..................................................................................9 Deputy G.W.J de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ....9

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ................................................................9
   2. Deputy G.C.L Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding confidence in the States of Jersey Police administration:.................................9 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):.........................................9

1. Deputy G.C.L Baudains:................................................................10
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................10
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St Helier:...........................................................11
4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade : ..................................................11
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................12

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding any studies underlying the decisionto move elderly residents from Overdale:..............12

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................12
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................13
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................13
4. Deputy A.E. Pyrke of Trinity :..........................................................13
   5. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................13
5. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:.......................................................14
6. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................14

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding estimate of Jersey taxbeing avoided by tax planning measures:....................................15

3.4.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................15

5. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence of the Minster for Education, Sport and Culture regarding capacity at First Tower, Bel Royal and Les Quennevais schools):....15

1. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:........................................................16 Senator M.E. Vibert :..........................................................................16
2. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................16
3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................16

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding review of the senior management group at the Airport: ........................................17

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier:.........................................................17

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................18
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................18

7. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Economic Development regarding investment from the Tourism Development Fund in the conversion of coastal forts:................18

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................19
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................19
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................20

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................20
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................20

8. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Housing regarding H2 sites purchased by Housing Trusts:..................................................................................21

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérrisier:..............................................................21
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................22
4. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:.......................................................22
   5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23

2.9 Deputy S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding costs associated with investigations into police officers: ......................................................23

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................23
2. Deputy of St. Martin:...................................................................24
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................25

10. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding projected traffic figures:............................................25

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................26
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................26
3. Connétable G.W. Fisher of St. Lawrence:............................................26
4. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:..........................................27
5. The Connétable of St.Lawrence: ....................................................27

3.10.7 Deputy P.N. Troy :...................................................................27

11. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the deterioration of St. Catherine's breakwater:............................................28

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................28
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................28

12. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding):..........28

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................29
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................29

4. Questions without notice – The Minister for Home Affairs ............................29

4.1 Connétable T.J. de Feu of St. Peter :....................................................29 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................29

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................30
2. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................30

4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................30
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................31
6. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................31
7. Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................31
8. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................32
9. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................32
10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................33

5. Questions to Ministers without notice – The Minister for Treasury and Resources..33

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................33
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................33
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................34
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34
7. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................35
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
10. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................36
11. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36
12. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................36

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................37

6. Strategic Plan 2006 to 2011 (P.40/2006) ................................................37

The Bailiff :...................................................................................37 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................38

The Greffier of the States:.......................................................................39

1. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................39
2. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................44
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................44
4. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................44
5. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour:...............................................45
6. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................46
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................46
8. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................46

3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................46

1. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................51
2. Deputy C.J. Scott - Warr en:..............................................................52
3. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................52
4. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour:......................................................52
5. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................53

LUNCHTIME ADJOURNMENT...............................................................54 PERSONAL STATEMENT.....................................................................54

7. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John:.............................................................54

NOTIFICATION OF LODGED PROPOSITIONS............................................54

8. Draft Sexual Offences (Jersey) Law 200- (P.63/2006): amendment....................54

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................54
2. The Bailiff :.............................................................................54
3. Senator Syvret:.........................................................................54
4. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................54

PUBLIC BUSINESS (continued ..) .............................................................55

9. Strategic Plan 2006 to 2011 (P.40/2006) (continued ..).................................55 The Bailiff :...................................................................................55

1. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................55 The Bailiff :...................................................................................55

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................56
2. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................59
3. Deputy G.W.F. de Faye:................................................................60
4. Deputy R.G. Le Herissier: ..............................................................61
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................62
6. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................63
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................64
8. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................64
9. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................64
10. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian : ..........................................................65
11. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................65
12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................65
13. Deputy I.J. Gorst :....................................................................66
14. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................66

2. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................69

1. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................70
2. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................72
3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................72
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................73
5. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................74
6. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................74
7. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................75
8. Deputy P.N. Troy : ......................................................................75
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................75

10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................76
11. Senator W. Kinnard:.................................................................77
12. Senator M.E. Vibert :................................................................78
13. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................79
14. Deputy A. Breckon: .................................................................79
15. Senator F.H. Walker :................................................................80 The Bailiff :...................................................................................82
16. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................83

3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................83

1. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................84
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................85
3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................85
4. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................85
5. Senator P.V.F Le Claire:................................................................86

6. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................86 The Bailiff :...................................................................................87

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................87 The Bailiff :.....................................................................................87

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

PETITIONS

1. Fields 190 and 192, Rue de la Sergente, St. Brelade : petition (P.75/2006)

The Bailiff :

I have notice of a petition to be presented by Deputy Power.

1.1 Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

Very briefly, I am very pleased to present this petition to the States, signed by 238 residents in the La Moye area who are very concerned about the proposed development, or perhaps over- development near their homes, Fields 190 and 192. I appreciate that the Planning and Environment Minister will need time to prepare a report, so I would be content for the matter to be debated in September.

The Bailiff :

Very well. The Usher is not present at the moment. The petition is placed on the table and the broad proposition is lodged and referred to the Minister for Planning and Environment.

Deputy S. Power:

For debate in September, thank you, Sir.

QUESTIONS

2. Written Questions

The Chief Minister tabled an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding population statistics –

"Would the Chief Minister inform members –

1. whether he has considered the implications of the net population growth estimate of 500 revealed recently by the Statistics Unit for the year 2005 and, if so, what conclusions have been made?
2. what consideration, if any, has been given to the resource implications of a return to net inward migration of 270 people, and would he provide a breakdown of these 270 people (j'- categories, spouses, children, and relevance to which economic sectors)?
3. ofthe indicative economic growth figures for 2005 associated with this inward migration and, if not, when will he be able to provide this information?
4. whether there is any economic relationship between the growth in population and the recent 7% rise in house prices, and, if not, what other economic factorshave given rise to this increase?
5. what measures, if any, he will put in place to ensure that the proposed 2% economic growth target does not result in major population growth and consequent pressure on the housing market as outlined in Section 9 ofthe Shadow Scrutiny Report Migration Policy; monitoring and regulation' (S.R. 5/2005)?"

Answer

1. Figures on population growth are considered in depth, and are an important tool as policy is developed. Population and migration are monitored by the Migration Advisory Group. The Chairman is the Assistant Minister to the Chief Minister and it comprises the Ministers for Housing, Economic Development and Planning and Environment. One of its functions is to monitor and consider the resource implications of population growth.

The first and striking conclusion drawn from the population estimates is that almost 90% of all growth of the last five years has been due to births exceeding deaths. The response to this type of natural growth is to continue to effectively plan and provide services for local people.

Net migration forms the other, far smaller element of population growth. In 2005, this element of population growth did increase, reflecting improvements in economic performance. This growth must continue to be balanced against the resources of the Island, in line with States approved migration policies, and considered within the context of wider sustainability issues.

2. Care should be taken when considering migration not to focus on fluctuating annual figures, but instead to consider, plan and manage over the longer term. Over the previous 5 years, net migration has averaged 24 persons per year, contributing a 0.02% increase in population. The implications of these levels ofgrowth are minimal. This is notto suggest complacency as economic growth has consequences which must be monitored, managed and balanced against the demands on the resources of the Island.  As noted, this  is the role of the Migration Advisory Group, which oversees the Population Office.

Statistical Breakdown required

The inward migration of 270 is the sum of the net change in migration of economically active adults (j'-category and non-qualified), net change in migration of economically inactive spouses etc and net change in all children. Of the 270, 100 was the net change in j'-category employees, the remaining 170 being mainly their dependents. This figure and the breakdown by sector was published in the Labour Market report published by the Statistics Unit in April. Of the 100 additional j'-employees, 70 were in the finance sector.

3. Economic growth figures for 2005 will only be available in September 2006 when the Statistics Unit releases its estimates of GVA. We do, however, know that of the 100 additional j'-category employees 70of them were in Finance. It is known that the GVA per employee of those employed in the finance industry is more than double that of the whole economy.

The 7% rise in house prices in the first quarter of this year (relative to the same quarter in 2005) follows an average increase last year of about 3%. It is too early to say whether this is the first sign of a sharper rate of increase in house prices or just a fluctuation. However, changes in house prices will be a consequence of the interaction of a whole host of factors that affect both the demand and supply for house purchases. Demand for housing will be driven by overall economic conditions to the extent they influence employment and earnings growth and overall confidence. Interest rates trends will also have an important impact on confidence in the housing market and hence prices. The very modest increase in j'-category housing consents may have had a minimal impact on the demand for housing but not all will have purchased houses and the impact is likely to be at the margins relative to these other factors. Housing supply can take some time to respond to changing demand in the housing market and can also influence house prices. There has been a drop off in turnover in the housing market in recent quarters but it is too soon to assess whether this is an emerging trend or just quarterly fluctuations.

4. To ensure economic growth does not result in significant population growth, and to prevent undue pressure on the resources ofthe Island, including the housing market, economic growth policies are firmly linked to a 1% working population growth target over the life of theEconomicGrowth Plan. The Economic Growth Plan highlights how we can boost productivity in the Island to ensure that the economic growth target can be achieved within the constraint on working population growth.
5. The growth targets will be reviewed later in the year by the Migration Advisory Group, when the statistical data for January – June 2006 becomes available.

The Minister for Treasury and Resources tabled an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding tax charged against various types of activities in the financial services industry -

"Under the proposed fiscal reforms, would the Minister provide members with a breakdown of which types of activities within the financial services industry will be subject to 10% taxation, and those which will be subject to 0%, together with an estimate of the numbers of businesses affected and the tax revenues raised in each group?"

Answer

The types of activities and entities that it is proposed be subject to the 10% rate include banks, trust companies and functionaries such as fund administrators, custodians, administrators, registrars, distributors and agents but, for international competitiveness reasons, investment managers will not be subject to the 10% rate.

It is extremely difficult to give an answer with a high degree of accuracy, particularly as the whole picture in relation to this matter is evolving, but it is estimated that the numbers of businesses affected by the 10% rate will be approximately 250 - 300. The tax revenues arising from these businesses under the 10% rate will be something in the region of £60 to £80 million. It is not possible to give figures for the tax revenues raised in each group without a very considerable cost in time and resources being expended and I do not believe such a resource cost to be justified.

The Minister for Treasury and Resources tabled an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding matters relating to the document Zero/Ten Design Proposal'.

"Would the Minister inform members –

1. whether he has forwarded to H.M. Treasury the Zero/Ten design proposal for consideration and, if so, can he give members an indication of when he expects to receive a response;, (whether and in what time;
2. whether he expects he expects the proposal to be considered by the EU Code of Conduct Group and ECOFIN and , if so, in what time scale; and,
3. whether he has been notified of the outcome of the consideration ofthe Isle of Man and Gibraltar proposals and how these differ from Jersey's proposals?"

Answer

Before addressing the specific points in this question, it is for consideration whether sufficient responses have already been given in the written answer to Question No. 2862 tabled on 16th May 2006. This Question appears to cover substantially the same ground as that contained in Question 2862 on which I believe a full answer was given.

1. As the Zero/Ten Design Proposal document makes clear in the table at Paragraph No. 2.3.2, the views of HM Treasury are sought and accordingly a copyoftheproposal has been sent tothe Treasury. We expect ongoing discussion with the Treasury about the Proposalaheadof it being presented by the U.K. to the EU Code of Conduct Group later this year. This discussion will principally taketheformof meetings between the Treasury and Jersey representatives.
2. This is partly addressed in (a) above and in the answer previously given to Question No.2862. The Proposal will be considered by the Code Group and ultimately will formpartof a Code Group report to ECOFIN. Dates on this are not clear as the Group itself has yet to finalise its working timetable and agenda for the remainder of 2006.

It is worth reiterating that the States decision to adopt the Zero/Ten proposal is not subject to the formal approval of the Code of Conduct Group or ECOFIN. Jersey has domestic competence in fiscal affairs and any suggestion that an EU body has the power to dictate our fiscal policy is to undermine that competence and the Island's constitutional rights. It should also be noted that the Code of Conduct Group is not a body with the power to enforce; even amongst the EU member states themselves. The process is one in which Jersey is participating voluntarily because the Island is not in the EU's fiscal territory. Nevertheless, regard will be had for any views expressed by the Code of Conduct Group in line with our policy stance as a good neighbour' to the EU.

3. We have not been notified by H.M. Treasury of the outcome of their consideration ofthe Isle of Man and Gibraltar proposals as H.M. Treasury applies the same confidentiality to those discussions asweare informed applies totheJersey discussions. We follow matters relating to these proposals which are in the public domain as would be expected as partof a formal monitoring process of competitor activity. This includes actual legislation generated by these jurisdictions togiveeffectto their respective proposals since this will highlight any differences fromour approach which may be relevant to the Jersey position. At this time such legislation has not been finalised but is pending and we take noteofthe content of such legislative proposals and await definitive assessmentofthemthatactual legislation will provide. Itisalso worth pointing out in this context that, because of Gibraltar's different position in relation to the EU, the Gibraltar proposals will be subject to EU State Aid Rules which in recent times have been used by the EU to deal with fiscal arrangements in the Member States that are considered to be in conflict with the objectives of the EU Treaties. Jersey is not subject to these Rules.

The Minister for Treasury and Resources will table an answer to a question asked by Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier regarding the potential of a land value tax in Jersey.

"What progress, if any, has been made by the Minister on the assessment of the potential of a land value tax for Jersey and when will any such findings be presented to the States?

Answer

As part of the Fiscal Strategy approach, research is currently being undertaken into appropriate environmental and other taxes, including the potential for a land value tax, which may be of benefit to the Island. This work is being led by the Director for the Environment and a high level options report will be presented to the States for consideration in the autumn session.

3. Oral Questions

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the land required for an enclosed in vessel composting facility at La Collette:

"What is the total area of land required including shed and office space, and waste reception areas for a modern, well-designed and enclosed in vessel composting facility at La Collette and what is the estimated value of this land with commercial industrial development approval granted"

Deputy G.W.J de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The area of land required for a modern and well-designed and enclosed in vessel composting facility at La Collette 2 has been estimated as between 6,500 and 7,000 square metres; in other words, 70,200 to 75,600 square feet depending on the precise site location and orientation access roads and the type of public reception to be laid out at the facility. The land value at La Collette 2 is not precisely known as it was not anticipated that the land would be sold. A preliminary assessment of the annual rental value of the land has been estimated in comparison with other sites. A detailed evaluation would have to be carried out to establish a final value, but the preliminary assessment for a site with no infrastructure, i.e. with no roads and services laid in, has been estimated at approximately £2 per square foot per annum. The sale value of land for a composting facility would depend on the location and the designated use of the land to establish the sale value of that land.

3.1.1 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

May I ask the Minister - while it is a comprehensive answer, it will have to be examined in detail afterwards, where his estimates have been derived from -whether he employed the services of WEB (Waterfront Enterprise Board) to derive that estimate or whether or not it was done through his own Department?

Deputy G.W.J de Faye:

The estimate is derived through officers in my Department who are competent to draw up these types of estimates.

2. Deputy G.C.L Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding confidence in the States of Jersey Police administration:

Does the Minister have full confidence in the States of Jersey police administration and what input has she had, if any, into the present internal investigations?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

I have full confidence in the States of Jersey Police administration and in its approach to ensuring that the highest ethical standards are maintained within the organisation and it is a view that is supported by other eminent authorities. For example, in order to provide independent assurance of performance and best practice, I arranged last year for Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary to conduct a full independent review of the force with particular emphasis on leadership and professional standards. The inspection has been completed and a report will be available towards the end of the summer, Sir, and Members will be provided with a copy. While, of course, it is prudent to await the outcome of that full report, I have received a preliminary briefing on its likely findings, which gave very strong reassurance in the effectiveness of the processes currently in place. So far as any investigation concerned with my input, Sir, Deputy Baudains will recall that in 1993, the States decided to remove any direct political involvement from the police disciplinary process when it agreed to the creation of an independent Police Complaints Authority with a right of appeal to a panel of Jurats made possible, of course, by the Police (Complaints and Discipline) (Jersey) Law 1999. Nevertheless, I, and my Assistant Minister, have had regular briefings on the progress of investigations of this kind. The Deputy will also recall, Sir, that the Police Complaints Authority published its annual report earlier this year and its conclusion was it wished to express its appreciation of the high standard of expertise in the Professional Standards Department at Police Headquarters, and that the members and the staff involved have continued to support the work of the Authority. I am very pleased, Sir, to agree with that conclusion.

1. Deputy G.C.L Baudains:

Thank you, Sir. I am glad the Minister does have full confidence, but given the lack of prosecutions which have apparently occurred in relation to the minor nature of these offences, as we have read about in the Jersey Evening Post, does she believe that the investigations have in fact represented good value for taxpayers' money. Also, while she is on her feet, Sir, would she advise who investigates the investigators? We have already seen that the Police Complaints Authority has released unfortunate comments on firearms; other misdemeanours have been attributed to them in the past. Who checks the upper echélons?

Senator W. Kinnard:

It was a bit difficult hearing all of that. There was quite a lot of movement to my left across the Chamber here. I would say, Sir, that I take the matter of ethical values very, very seriously within the States of Jersey Police and, indeed, I give full support to the senior management team in applying those standards. In terms of who oversees, as I mentioned just earlier on in my answer, I have asked Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary to look at the professional standards and the way in which discipline matters are dealt with. As I say, Sir, we have had very positive feedback from that, also, of course, the independent Police Complaints Authority. Sir, I am concerned that I think I heard, but I cannot be absolutely sure, the Deputy refer to the matters that were brought up in the Jersey Evening Post as minor matters. Sir, I do not consider them to be minor matters, I consider them to be extremely serious matters. But indeed, I should remind the Deputy it is the role of the police in the judicial system to collect and collate evidence, and to present that. It is not for them to decide whether or not a prosecution is appropriate. It is not for them to decide innocence or guilt. That belongs to another place.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Would the Minister clarify for the House whether she has received advice on the speed at which these investigations proceed and if she has, in the light of that advice, would she say she is satisfied with the speed at which these investigations proceeded?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Ideally it is important that any investigation be concluded as quickly as possible, not just for the individuals concerned, but obviously also in terms of the morale of the force and in terms of the reputation of the force. But of course these matters are often quite difficult to investigate and take very, very careful analysis. Sir, again, I have to say that we need to await the outcome of the full report of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and as I say, Sir, I did ask him to specifically look at this area and the initial results I have, Sir, are, indeed, very positive. Sir, I do not have any particular concerns other than that of course in every circumstance, we would wish these matters to be concluded as soon as possible. But indeed, they need very careful analysis, particularly in a very sensitive area like this, where a Professional Standards Department is involved in investigating colleagues.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St Helier:

The Minister will know that I had concerns about the length of time some of these investigations were going and since that time the Council of Ministers, through the officers, have made a new policy and procedures. I just seek reassurance in the first stage that in fact the Minister is happy and will ensure that those new procedures will be adopted. I am interested also in this interim report. Will States' Members have the opportunity of having sight of this report? The other one seems to be some time away. I think it might be useful at this stage.

Senator W. Kinnard:

The new procedures that, of course, have been adopted by the Council of Ministers relate to Civil Service appointments, not to the uniformed services which, of course, have their own rules and regulations and procedures. Indeed we have, as I mentioned before, an independent Police Complaints Authority. However, Sir, I am concerned as anyone that such issues - such investigations - should be concluded as soon as possible, and I am awaiting the more detailed report, the full report of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and if that raises any concerns, then quite clearly those are concerns that I would seek to address, not just in States of Jersey Police but across the whole of the uniformed services sector. But at this point, Sir, I do not have any indication of that. There is no written interim report. This was just a close-out meeting at which certain issues were raised by myself and were raised also by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary while he was over in the Island last week.

4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade :

Would the Minister kindly tell us when was she aware of the scale and conduct of the investigation? I am hearing stories about people being dragged out of their houses at 7.00 a.m. and handcuffed for conduct - not for criminal matters but for procedural errors. When was the Minister or her Committee - because this goes back 4 years - aware of the scale and conduct of this investigation?

Senator W. Kinnard

As I have mentioned before, we have the independent Police Complaints Authority and if any individual is aggrieved by the alleged behaviour of the States of Jersey Police it is open to them to make a complaint, Sir. I am, I have to say, extremely concerned that certain individuals - and I do not wish to go into details - have sought to pursue their grievances through the organ of the press rather than do it through the appropriate channel, which is the Police Complaints Authority. I do not think it is good enough to say: "I have heard whispers" or "I have heard rumours." Sir, that is not necessarily the way in which one receives the full briefing of what the circumstances are. As I have mentioned, myself, as President previously, now as Minister, and my Assistant Minister, receive briefings whenever such investigations are about to take place and the basis on which they are about to take place. We are kept aware, in general terms, of what is going on, but, Sir, it would

not be appropriate to go into that level of detail. It is, of course, a matter of operational concern as to how and when an arrest is or is not made. It will be made on the basis ..

The Bailiff :

Sorry, to interrupt, but Standing Orders require that Ministers reply to questions concisely, because otherwise that inhibits the rights of other Members to ask supplementaries.

Senator W. Kinnard:

Sir, I am very careful to be aware of what is my appropriate role, and not to overstep and step into those areas where my role is not appropriate.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

The Minister has twice mentioned - or in fact mentioned again just a moment ago - the independent Complaints Authority. Could the Minister say whether she has any plans to widen its scope in their terms of reference, because I know from personal experience when I took them an issue of misconduct by the States of Jersey Police, they were unable to do anything about it because their terms of reference is so narrow. Does she have any intention of addressing that issue?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Indeed, the Deputy asked me a question on this very matter attendant upon the concerns that he put to me at the time. I asked the independent Authority if they would like to have wider powers or to have their powers reviewed and they told me, Sir, they are perfectly content with the powers that they have and see them as more than sufficient to do the job.

Deputy G.C.L Baudains:

I take it that the answer is: "No" then?

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding any studies underlying the decision to move elderly residents from Overdale:

Would the Minister identify the relevant studies, if any, such as cost benefit and value for money studies, which underlie the decision to move elderly residents from Overdale to private facilities?

Senator S. Syvret (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

The Health and Social Services Department has developed an initial outline business case, which has looked into the feasibility and desirability of closing Leoville and McKinstry wards on the Overdale site, as they are no longer fit for purpose. Alternative options for providing the service have been considered, particularly considering the costs and benefits of each alternative. These options included keeping the existing beds open in the current accommodation, with an upgrade to the fabric of the building, a new-build or the purchase of 54 beds from the private sector. The proposal to move clients to private sector facilities, where this is appropriate, was identified as best meeting the needs of the clients in an affordable manner. I have approved in principle the recommendations of the business case so that significantly better patient facilities may be procured in the private sector to better meet patient need. I am not prepared to provide any financial information at this time as the Department is currently conducting the tender process for these beds in the private sector, and such information is, therefore, commercially sensitive. It must be pointed out that the initiative to move these residents from Overdale to private facilities has not been driven by short-term financial constraints and objectives. It has been driven by the need to provide appropriate care facilities that are needed now and to develop facilities and multi-disciplinary support mechanisms to meet expected long-term requirements of the Island in response to the aging demographic.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister put in the public domain the general sums of money that are involved, so that a learned judgment can be made on whether this massive shift to the private sector has, indeed, been done in the context of a well worked out policy. Secondly, Sir, would the Business Plan upon which this move is now being conducted also be placed into the public domain?

Senator S. Syvret:

I think I have already said in my answer that the answer to both of those questions is "No". To put them into the public domain at this stage would disadvantage the public interest, as it would give commercial information, commercially sensitive information about costs and other things to potential bidders for the contracts. I say now, as I said on Radio Jersey last night, I am happy to make this information available to the Deputy and, indeed, any other Member of the Assembly, on the basis of strict confidentiality. Of course, to make it public at this stage would disadvantage the public interest.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

In the process of these changes, could the Minister advise as to whether ultimately the number of beds available will either be less, more or the same and is there any intention in the future that the occupants might have to pay all or part of the cost that arises?

Senator S. Syvret:

There will be no variation in the cost for those clients currently using the facilities. As has been made plain on numerous occasions before, it will simply be a case of moving people out of those facilities into better, private facilities. We believe that 54 beds are required. Those are the numbers that we might be looking to commission from the private sector. We do not know quite where yet. There are now a variety of very high quality facilities on the Island which will provide people with private rooms, en suite facilities, facilities of that nature which are completely absent in the 2 existing wards which are being used at the moment, where there is no privacy. Terminally ill patients and their families are simply kept partitioned-off by curtains from other people, other visiting families. It is a wholly unacceptable setting. People that need continuing care are essentially living in what should be a home-type environment. The 2 wards at present, built in the 1930s as they were, simply comprise of a hospital ward-style development. It is not, therefore, appropriate for long-term care.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

In light of local rumours, would the Minister for Health and Social Services confirm that he has absolutely no intention to sell, lease or otherwise dispose of, or privatise Overdale Hospital?

Senator S. Syvret:

Yes, Sir, I am happy to give that assurance absolutely and categorically. I have no idea where the rumour started that the Overdale site was going to be sold. There is not a grain of truth in it. Indeed, Health and Social Services have made very substantial investments of taxpayers' money, running into some millions of pounds, on new buildings on the overall site at Overdale. So, there is no question other than it is going to be in the ownership of the States for providing health, social care and other facilities for the public into the future. The issue, as far as the old 1930s buildings are concerned, is that the States of Jersey simply does not have in its capital programme at the present time the money to demolish and rebuild them now. But we might do in 5 years' time. We do not know. We will have to see how the money is going.

4. Deputy A.E. Pyrke of Trinity :

Would the Minister inform the House, when the residents are moving to the residential homes, what is going to happen to the staff in place at Overdale?

Senator S. Syvret:

The staff will be redeployed throughout areas of need Health and Social Services. That has been made absolutely clear to the staff on numerous occasions. There will be no redundancies, no job losses. Those people that wish to continue to work for Health and Social Services will continue to do so. They will be deployed to other areas of need.

3.4.5 Deputy J.B. Fox:

I was pleased to hear the reassurances about the site after the processes going through at the moment for improvements to health care, but there are residents in the area, that would probably have been listening to the rumours as well, that would like reassurance that the fine mature trees - some of which have got history - will be retained on any future build or other requirement that Health would produce. Can you give that reassurance today?

Senator S. Syvret:

I certainly strongly support the preservation of trees, so, I am certainly happy to look into it in terms of any future plans for redeveloping the site that may exist. But I would have thought it would be most unlikely that trees and other attractive features of the area would be damaged or removed in any way. The area,  it has to be remembered,  includes the crematorium and the crematorium gardens, which are areas obviously that have to be treated with reverence and respect. So, at any future States of Jersey redevelopment of some of the old buildings on the site, all I can say is environmental factors, such as preservation of trees, will be taken very seriously and any such development will be undertaken with the utmost sensitivity.

6. Deputy P.N. Troy of St. Brelade :

I have previously asked the Senator for costings. He did say he would provide them to me. I have not received anything at all and he is now saying today that he cannot provide costings. I think he should certainly consider passing information to States  members. I certainly could keep any information in confidence. The question, Sir: patient care certainly is very important and I would like to ask the Senator would a bed manager be appointed to these 54 bed? Would there also be proper counselling for people who are coming into respite care and arrangements made to ensure that people are not shunted around from one facility to another?

Senator S. Syvret:

Yes, Sir, patients will be engaged in discussions about their own circumstances and where they are going to go. There is no question of patients, without reference to them or their families, simply being shunted to this place or that. There will be proper further discussions with all of the clients of the service facility there. It has to be remembered that there are 7 respite bed facilities there. Most of the rest are long-term care beds. It has to be said for the respite facilities there, take-up has fallen very significantly because of the extremely poor quality and inappropriateness of the building. Yes, Sir, the clients' needs will be taken into consideration as they have been already. Before this exercise really got underway, clients and their families were surveyed to find their wishes, and most quite clearly said they would much prefer to be living in far better or private, more modern accommodation than that which they are in at the present time.

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

The Minister said that he did not understand where the rumours were coming from about the possible sell off of Overdale. Could I point him to the fact that the Housing Department is selling off its stock? Public Services is talking of selling off substantial chunks of property and the Chief Minister is talking about privatisation. Will the Minister assure the House that he will keep communications open with the public sector workers for whom he is responsible and assure them that their jobs will not be sold off along with many others?

Senator S. Syvret:

Certainly, Sir, I am very happy to give that assurance again. It has already been given to the staff in question. I am not aware of any other Department or other Ministers having plans to sell off parts of Overdale. All I can say to the Assembly is that, as far as I am concerned, there are no such plans and never have been such plans, and it is difficult to concede, given the other uses on that site, how it could be that parts could be sold off. It is very, very difficult to envisage any future for that site other than it remaining in the long-term in the social care and health portfolio of the Island.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding estimate of Jersey tax being avoided by tax planning measures:

Notwithstanding the reply to my question on 6th June 2006, what estimate has been made, if any, of the amount of Jersey tax currently being avoided by the tax planning procedures referred to in paragraph 12.2 of the document entitled "Zero/10 Design Proposal". Would the Minister reconsider introducing anti avoidance measures to counteract this planning?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

No estimate has been made. But as the lower rate would only apply to tier 1 capital - an amount fixed for regulatory purposes - rather than for surplus capital as a whole, the impact on tax revenues should not be significant  for that tier 1 element in isolation. I will not be introducing anti- avoidance measures for the reasons given in my written answer, 6th June. This is essentially a competition issue. The Deputy should be aware that multinational banks are situated in many jurisdictions worldwide and they will make commercial decisions on which jurisdiction to place their reserves over and above their minimum tier 1 capital requirements. That decision will be taken bearing in mind various issues including tax, which of course is a cost like any other cost to such banks. No legislation that we would introduce would ensure that such capital is deposited or maintained in Jersey. Indeed, the prospect of such legislation is likely to see us lose not just the excess capital, but also the loss of a whole swathe of banking business and that would have a very detrimental consequence on our tax revenues.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

May I remind the Minister of what the text says on 12.2. It says: "Specified financial services companies will be in the position of being able to hive down assets into a zero per cent rate subsidiary." It then goes on to say: "This happens currently" but it then says: "It is not proposed therefore that any specific anti-avoidance measures be introduced.." Does the Minister not agree that this is like pointing to the horse in the stable, saying the stable door is open and then giving the horse a slap on the rump?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

No, Sir, this is simply reflecting the transition from the present international business company status, which will no longer be effective after 2011 or 2012 into a Zero/10' situation and ensuring the Island remains competitive.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Minister saying that such mechanisms such as transfer pricing are openly available to any company in Jersey if it wishes to want to avoid paying tax in Jersey?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur : No, Sir, I am not.

5. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence of the Minster for Education, Sport and Culture regarding capacity at First Tower, Bel Royal and Les Quennevais schools):

Would the Minister inform Members of the current available capacity at First Tower, Bel Royal, and Les Quennevais schools if any, and if an assessment of the projected impact on them arising for the proposed housing development for 129 homes at Bel Royal has been carried out, and if so, what this concludes?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Culture and Sport):

The total number of pupils in Bel Royal School is currently just over its planned maximum, but there are 6 places available in specific year groups. In First Tower, there is space for a further 25 children. Les Quennevais currently has a roll in excess of its planning capacity, but there are spaces for 6 children in specific year groups only. The assessment of the proposed development at Bel Royal indicates the expected child yield will be approximately 163 children under the age of 18. Predicted distribution of these children will be pre-school age, 41; primary age, 70; secondary age, 44; post-16, 8. Of these pupils, it is expected that some 39 children who are not already attending Bel Royal school would seek places there and that 17 pupils, who are not already attending Les Quennevais school, would seek places there.

1. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

In light of that answer, Sir, would the Minister advise whether he is considering any redefinition of the catchment areas for Les Quennevais School and, if so, would any affected primary schools and, indeed, the parents, be consulted, or would this be presented as a fait accompli?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

The catchment areas are consistently under review as we have to react to the distribution of children in the Island. We always try to give as much notice as possible and consult as much as possible about any redistribution. What we have to do is to provide education for any child under school leaving age and we do that, though sometimes because of pressures, we cannot provide it at the nearest school in the catchment area and we have to provide places at other schools. We have capacity in the Island. Unfortunately that capacity does not match necessarily where major building developments are taking place.

2. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :

I would like to thank the Minister for the information he has given us and ask him whether he is satisfied that the schools mentioned in my question, namely First Tower, Bel Royal and Les Quennevais, are in a position to cope with the future numbers that he has told us may arise if this development at Bel Royal goes ahead?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I hope I have made clear that those schools will not be able to cope with all the predicted children from the catchment areas. We are always contacted for major developments by the Planning Department. When we are contacted, we give our best estimate. Those best estimates change nearer the time to the development being completed and also with the fact that we are not asked at present our view on the cumulative effect on minor developments, and a number of minor developments can have an effect that fill-up schools with children. We occasionally allow certain year groups to go one or 2 over number, but we will not just allow schools to take far more in excess of their capacity. If necessary, some young people - some children - will have to attend alternative schools. What is important is that if anyone is thinking of moving to a new development, they decide beforehand and find out beforehand the situation regarding schooling as a result of moving into that area.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Yes, the figures the Minister has just quoted seem to be at least 125 children over capacity of what the schools in the area can take. I am also aware - and obviously he is as being the Minster for Education - of the 2 large developments in St. Clement, with Le Squez being redeveloped and the 95 houses of 3 and 4 bedroom on the LeMarais site.

The Bailiff :

No speeches, please.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Could the Minister undertake a complete audit of all the new houses and the amount of children and can he reassure us in the next few months that we do have capacity in all our schools, whether they may have to move out of a different catchment area?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

Already done, Sir, and we do have enough overall capacity. The difficulty is the developments are not always matching up to where the school capacity is. We have recently updated those figures and provided them to Planning so they are aware of the capacity issues in the areas concerned.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Sorry, Sir, my question was could he undertake and make sure that all States members know. So, if it is already done, could we please have the figures?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

Certainly, Sir, I have got them here and I will get them distributed to all States members.

4. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier :

The Minister said that First Tower School was full or just about full. Is he saying that for the estate that is going up at the top of Mont à l'Abbé with 120-odd houses there will be no places for our children at the school?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

No, Sir. There will be places at schools for children. There are a number of schools in that area. For example, there is a new D'Auverne School. There has been planning capacity in the D'Auverne School for a number of developments.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding review of the senior management group at the Airport:

Given the information contained in the recent statement that the senior management group at the airport consists of 25 persons earning in excess of £70,000 per annum, would the Minister inform Member what steps, if any, are being taken and within what deadlines to review this situation?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf ( The Minister for Economic Development):

I ask Deputy Maclean, who has responsibility for the airport, to be rapporteur for this item.

The Bailiff : Yes, rapporteur?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier :

I believe that there may be some confusion caused by the use of the term "senior management group" in this question. Of the 25 persons identified as this group, earning in excess of £70,000 per annum, only 5 form part of the senior management group. 22 are, in fact, involved in technical operations at the airport with the majority being air traffic controllers. The salaries being paid to these individuals is consistent with other airports and takes into account the highly specialised nature of their jobs. In addition, it should be noted that the airport, unlike other businesses, is operational for 16 out of every 24 hours, 7 days a week including holidays. As such, it requires staffing by shifts which understandably increases the specialist staff numbers in order to cover extra hours. Sir, I could assure Deputy Le Hérissier and Members that there is nothing that I hate or dislike more than waste and inefficiency in any business, especially where it involves taxpayers' money. With this mind, the new Airport Director is currently undertaking a full review of the organisational structure and operation of the airport. This review is being supported by specialists in both fields and is expected to be delivered with recommendations by the end of July.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Assistant Minister identify the studies that have led him to the conclusion that the 22 non-management people are indeed paid at a comparable level to those at other airports? And secondly, Sir, would he say whether, having started political life out as one of the 7 angry young men, he has undergone a sudden transformation and become a total supporter of the system?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

A very interesting question, Sir. Two very interesting questions, in fact. I will deal with the first one first. With regard to the study of the 22 or the 25 in the group in question, the information has been supplied as part of the initial reports from a consultancy group, who I do not think it appropriate to name at this stage. So, I am very satisfied that in fact the salaries being paid to these individuals are in fact in line with what would be expected in a similar sized airport. With regard to the second question that Deputy Le Hérissier mentions, I have not undertaken a massive transformation or a leap in faith in any particular direction at all. That is why I pointed out that I have been very keen for the Airport Director to undertake the review, which he is currently doing to ensure that the airport is operated in an efficient manner and that value for money and efficiency is delivered.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

It strikes me, Sir, that the Assistant Minister - in the nicest sense - is speaking out of both sides of the mouth. On the one hand, Sir, he is justifying the system. On the other hand, Sir, he is saying he has put an investigation in train to deal with its inefficiencies. What inefficiencies has he noticed?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

I think it would be inappropriate to prejudge the decisions and recommendations that will come from the work that the Airport Director and, in fact, the 2 specialists that have been employed to look at issues surrounding both the operational and staffing aspects of the airport, have done. There are areas that we have identified. The report for that will be available and I will be more than happy to discuss it at the end of July when we expect to have it in full.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Economic Development regarding investment from the Tourism Development Fund in the conversion of coastal forts:

Would the Minister inform Members whether the total sum already invested from the Tourism Investment Fund to convert coastal forts into bed and breakfast accommodation is £758,660 and the States' revenue return is estimated to be £65,000 per annum? If so, is he prepared to give an assurance that no further money will be invested in similar projects from the Tourism Investment Fund?

Senator P.F.C Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

The Tourism Development Fund (TDF) has awarded 2 grants for the coastal forts and fortifications project: the first for £250,000 and the second £340,000, making a total of £590,000. These are for 10 sites. These grants are entirely in line with the stated objectives of the TDF scheme. The initiative is a joint project between Economic Development and Transport and Technical Services, Planning and Environment and the Jersey Heritage Trust, who are the project managers. Sir, this is a great project, almost symbolic of the renaissance that we are beginning to see in the tourism economy. The project achieves several States' objectives. These are important sites and the refurbished sites make a distinctive product for developing both niche tourism and local access. Moreover, I am delighted to report to the Deputy that we even received a Daily Telegraph on Saturday telling the whole of the United Kingdom about our great project. Bookings are now well out to 2010 and this is an example of a fantastic TDF project.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am sorry the Minister did not properly answer my question. There has been no - and this is from the Treasury Minister - reading in between the lines, they are not very happy. There is no business case made and the only reason - and I will read, Sir - that this was approved is because the Tourism Development Fund Sub-Committee sought the approval of the Minister and had not sought the approval of the Minister in the appropriate timescale and had already committed monies. Basically, the Minister is saying this is not a business case and they will not sanction any more money for such hair-brained schemes.

Senator P.F.C Ozouf :

I would encourage Deputy Martin to go and have a look at some of the refurbished projects that we are talking about. Fort Leicester, Barge Aground. Barge Aground itself you cannot even get a booking in the month of August until 2010. I defy the Deputy to tell me this is not a great example of a wise use of TDF funding. The revenue that she talks about is £65,000 per year. Next year it is estimated to be gross revenue of £87,000, in 2008, £96,000 gross - all of the funds of which are going to go back into the Scheme for us to restore yet more projects and more sites across the Island. This is an example of wise use of TDF money and, moreover, a sensible use of TTS money that already had a budget for coastal fortifications, but simply would just refurbish them to continue for the birds to look at. Instead, what we have done is join forces with TTS, putting some TDF money in and putting in place a fantastic project for tourism in Jersey, which is getting U.K. national acclaim.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I am always intrigued in getting a lecture from the Minister. Unfortunately, as Deputy Martin said, he has not answered the question at all. Could he account for the almost obscene waste of money here? This is not a wonderful project, Sir. It just seems to me a terribly bad investment where we are unlikely to ever get the money back, never mind make interest on the capital.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Even on its most basic financial assessment, this project is getting a better return than you would get on money in the bank. But does the Deputy not understand the importance of keeping sites such as Barge Aground, Fort Leicester, the Radio Tower, L'Etacquerel Fort, Seymour Tower, Archirondel, La Tour Carrée and all these other properties. Does not the Deputy think we have a responsibility in this Assembly to look after these assets, moreover get a return from them in a way that has never happened before?

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Yes, Sir, let us get back to the facts, shall we? Would the Minister accept that in the Treasury and Resources Minister's words on this particular loan, the Minister said that it is not evident this project is a good investment, not as best value for money. In addition to this, the schedule of revenue costs does not take into account items such refurbishment costs over the following years, and ongoing maintenance costs. However, the Minister was placed in a difficult position in that bookings for 2006 had already been taken, so he had no choice but to cough up the money. Does the Minister not agree that that is an accurate statement about what is going on?

Senator P.F.C Ozouf :

What the Minster will say is that he cannot speak for the Treasury and Resources Minister. What happens is there are 2 allocations of money from the TDF; one for £250,000 which I understand was previously sanctioned, and one which as for £340,000 which - because it is in excess of

£250,000 - the Treasury and Resources Minister has to agree. I have not spoken to the Treasury and Resources Minister about this, but I would if I did have the opportunity to talk to him, and if he did have any doubts about it, to explain to him what an absolutely great use of TDF money this is. For years, we have seen properties such as Barge Aground for the birds to look at. We have seen other projects such as Fort Leicester decaying. We have used, for the first time, a sensible allocation of money and to get a revenue receivable from these properties in future, therefore, giving us enough money in future to keep them in the state in which they have now been kept. Moreover, local people and tourism are enjoying them and we are getting U.K. national press for it. I say: "Great investment" and I will talk to my friend, the Treasury and Resources Minister, and attempt to convince him.

4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Would the Minister not agree with me that these projects are, if you like, mini Mont Orgueils and that it is  not surprising that members like Deputy Baudains, who so vociferously oppose the refurbishment of Mont Orgueil, should be objecting to these smaller projects? Would he not further agree with me that these are examples of how well the Jersey Heritage Trust has served the Island in bringing forward these kind of projects?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I absolutely agree with what the Constable is saying; this is a joint venture and shows joined-up government between different States' departments and the Jersey Heritage Trust. The Jersey Heritage Trust has done a great job in delivering this project on time and in the manner in which we set out and tourists are enjoying these properties. I absolutely agree completely that Deputy Baudains, and others like that, are always going to complain when we are trying to look after important sites around Jersey.

5. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Just a minor clarification, Deputy Martin asked a question for the Minister regarding the Tourism Investment Fund and all the answers are regarding the Tourism Development Fund. Will the Minister just confirm that these funds are one and the same?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

That is absolutely right. I should have corrected the Deputy . It used to be the TIF (Tourism Investment Fund) and now it is the Tourism Development Fund; and if the Deputy is interested, I have a full schedule of both the consolidated funds and all the allocations of it, if he is interested in seeing it.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Although the Minister for Economic Development could not give me the assurance that no money would be spent, reading the comments - and unfortunately he has not spoken to the Treasury Minister - I have no doubt that under no terms should funds be committed for these projects exceeding £500,000 unless approval has been made by the Finance Minister that, given the business case and given their comments that no money will be given to any more refurbishment of our forts for bed and breakfasts. Would the Minister not accept that?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

No, I am afraid I would not and if there has been an issue of requiring Treasury consent for the greater amounts of money, it is because the project started. We then found that it was such a great project and we found more properties to do. We then hit the ceiling of the £500,000 which requires the Treasury and Resources Minister to approve, so there may well be a timing issue. But the reality is that the project had to be gotten on with and that is why we have already seen Barge Aground and Fort Leicester already occupied and having bookings over the course of the summer, and there may well be a timing issue which I am happy to discuss with the Treasury and Resources Minister. But what I would also tell Deputy Martin is that with this project, I would not agree that no more money should be spent. I am in discussions with the Harbour Authority, for example, about the small harbour master's house on Gorey - currently empty - also to be included in this scheme. Another example of an asset in States ownership not getting a return which we cannot only use for the tourism economy but we can use in a far more way and get a return on it. So I am afraid, no, I want to see more of this, not less.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Could I ask a point of clarification, Sir?

The Bailiff :

I doubt it, Deputy .

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I wished him to clarify whether the expansion of this scheme is going on because there is not a proper Business Plan attached to the scheme?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am happy to answer it, Sir. If the Chairman of the Scrutiny Panel wishes to call me in to give evidence about this at Scrutiny, I am happy to do so.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

And here is a Back-Bencher, Sir.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

There is a clear Business Plan which has been supporting it and I believe if any Member of this Assembly saw it, they would support it too.

8. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Housing regarding H2 sites purchased by Housing Trusts:

Would the Minister inform Members whether any H2 sites have already been purchased by Housing Trusts under the assumption that they will be given financial support by the Housing Development Fund to develop these sites and, if so, how many?

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

I am not aware of any purchases which have already taken place on the basis of the Deputy 's questions.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérrisier:

Would the Minister state whether he is aware of any imminent purchases?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

No, Sir, I have written to all the Trusts' chairmen. This Assembly will know very well that we will very shortly be concluding a full review of social housing, Trust subsidies, everything pertaining to housing and social housing in Jersey. I have written, on 8th May, to all the Trusts' chairmen explaining that I would want no further purchases or agreements without my express authority while this survey is in place.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can the Minister assure the House that, should any Trust approach him with a scheme involving a purchase by that Trust of the land, as well as development of that land, he will reject such a proposition?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I have explained that I have written on 8th May to all the Trusts' chairmen explaining that they must not enter into any purchases or deals or otherwise on H2 sites without referring the matter to myself.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I just ask just for absolute confirmation that also includes Field 690 in St. Martin ?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

All sites - including H2 sites - until this Assembly has had a proper look and proper debate on the needs of social housing in this Island, which includes the whole manner of the relationship between the Trusts, the public sector and everything else.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The answer is yes, 690 has been included. It will not be sold until the report has come from you. That is what I was asking.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Regarding 690, there has been no approach to my department on the social aspect of it.

4. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement :

Just asking the Minister for clarification in regard to his last answer; he said that he has written to all Trust chairmen asking them not to undertake any deals without notifying him. He also insinuated that any that he was notified of he would then bring to this House for discussion. Is that the case?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

It might be easier, Sir, if I had your approval to read out a short letter that I wrote to the Trust chairmen which will clarify the issues. It is titled Review of Social Housing Need in Jersey': "As you will be aware, my department intends during the course of this year to carry out a fundamental review of social housing in Jersey. The ultimate aim will be to take a report and proposition to the States which would make recommendations on the future provision of social housing in the Island. The review will examine, among other things, the level and indeed the definition of social housing needs in the Island. It will also seek to settle recurring questions relating to the cost of subsidy, the level and the form of any regulation and the future roles of the States, Trusts and the Parishes as social landlords. Naturally, as key partners in the provision of social housing, the Trusts' input will be invaluable, particularly in the development of an overarching social housing plan to which we will all work. In view of the fact that this major review is imminent and that States will be asked within a relatively short period to make far reaching decisions in this sphere, you may feel as I do that it would be wise to hold in abeyance any new schemes beyond what has already been agreed, pending the outcome of that debate. In the interim it would clearly be unwise to enter into any firm commitments for additional developments. I intend to call a meeting of the Trust chairmen in the very near future to discuss the issue of individual negotiations on rezoned sites and how I feel this ought to be conducted." That is the basis of my letter.

Deputy I.J. Gorst :

So the answer to my question is yes, there will not be any deals undertaken before the proposition is brought to this House?

2.8.5 Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am sorry, I totally have a different interpretation of that. It was a very nice letter written to the Trusts, but does the Minister not agree that he has no authority whatsoever over any Jersey Housing Trust and if they wish to go out and purchase any land they can do so, and if they get there first we are held that these sites have been rezoned for first-time buyers and social housing and there is nothing the Minister can do under the laws at the moment to stop Housing Trusts going out and purchasing? Is that not correct?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The Housing Trusts could purchase but they would not get my blessing for any subsidies or any agreements. The position is quite clear that the social landlord, should a Trust decide to purchase without the hands of comfort of the States in subsidies, then of course I would believe that you are correct. But, at the moment, all Trusts are seeking letters of comfort and some form of comfort over the interest rates that they borrow at the banks. So the issue is that at the moment I do not believe that the Trusts would in fact go against my advice.

2.9 Deputy S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding costs associated with investigations into police officers:

Will the Minister inform the House what is the total cost of the investigations into police officers over the past 4 years for each year, and what is the cost of the suspensions in terms of salaries, pensions and social security contributions plus the cost of extra over-time and temporary staff to cover absent officers in each of these 4 years?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

It is a lot to answer in a very short period of time but I will do my best. Firstly, investigations of this nature are undertaken, as you know, by the Force's Professional Standards Department but it is part of their normal work. Their role is primarily to enable the force, obviously, to meet its

statutory requirements in terms of the Police Complaints Law and the disciplinary procedures. As the type of the investigations the Deputy refers to are undertaken as part of the department's routine work it is not possible to identify additional costs unless particular special measures were undertaken, such as calling in a force from the United Kingdom to carry out an inquiry. While this practice was common prior to 2001, since that time a number of local officers within the force have undertaken training and they are able to undertake this work; obviously with independent scrutiny by the Police Complaints Authority and periodic audit by the H.M. Inspectorate of Constabulary. There are no significant additional costs outside the normal costs of professional standards work, which all police services are now expected to undertake. In terms of suspension; suspended officers are dealt with in terms of normal staff costs of the force and the loss that is sustained, because of their suspension, is reflected in the temporary loss of their services rather than any direct financial cost. So, from that perspective, it could be argued that the cost is nil but I will give an indication of the remuneration costs - because I think that is what the Deputy really perhaps is asking, although it is not clear - of suspended officers on the assumption that that is what she is requesting.

The Bailiff :

Deputy , your time has expired, I am afraid.

Senator W. Kinnard:

Perhaps if she asked me a supplementary I could give it to her, Sir.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Yes, I have a supplementary. It seems to me that if the accounting system cannot produce the figures then the Minister is really saying that the accounting system at police headquarters is perhaps a nonsense. Given the large sums that must be involved in this; the cost of the Professional Standards Unit for a year, obviously, and given that there appears to be an appalling lapse in management controls and procedures, in fact the word incompetence springs to mind. Will the Minister tell us what steps are being taken to remedy the situation and will the Minister undertake to supply the House with a proper summary of the costs of all these investigations?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I completely refute the assertion that there is any incompetence in the Professional Standards Unit. As I have said, Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary has already given an indication of his complete confidence in that department and indeed States Members will have a copy of his full report when it is produced. What I have done is outline the situation that, in terms of the Professional Standards Unit, they undertake this as part of their normal work and I was trying to clarify what the Deputy was asking. If she is asking how much remuneration individuals have received, I can give her that, because that is governed by the relevant legislation which has been passed by this House at various times. The current law gives officers an entitlement to full remuneration during their suspension - because we must remember that suspension is not punishment - and, as far as can be calculated, the costs of remuneration for each of the years from 2003 to 2006 respectively is £53,000, £72,000, £181,000 and £55,000. That is a total over those years of £361,000. While these payments may be considered regrettable, Members, I think, have to agree that if we were not to confront integrity issues within the Island, this could run the risk of reputational and economic consequences. In respect of additional staff cover, there is no provision for this and absence cover is covered through redeployment within the police force. So it follows therefore that there are again no significant additional costs. Members will also be interested to know that there is only currently one officer suspended, pending a hearing in 2 weeks' time, and the present indications are that there will be no suspensions in place by early July. I also remind Members again that suspension is not punishment and that is why the policies of this House and the laws of this House allow for remuneration during suspension. In other forces it may well be possible ..

The Bailiff :

Minister, you must try to be more concise in answering supplementary questions.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I will try. I am getting tired actually, Sir.

2. Deputy of St. Martin :

Would the Minister confirm in actual fact, if £360,000 has been paid for officers who have not worked, because they have been suspended for all sorts of reasons, that that £360,--- has been lost because we have received no work from those officers? So, it has cost the Island £360 for officers who have not worked?

Senator W. Kinnard:

That is the bit I was trying to really address, I am afraid, when you stopped me in full flow. What I was going to say is that in other forces, of course, it may well be possible to move an officer temporarily to another town or to a department some physical distance from the location of the inquiry. In an island, of course, that is very, very rarely possible. So, what the management of the force is doing it is continuing to look for opportunities and alternatives to suspension but there are obvious physical constraints to us being able to do that when we are an island police force. So the issue, again, is there are circumstances when an investigation is going on when you have to remove the officer from the place where the investigation is being undertaken. We do not have the ability to send someone down the road to another town and also, again, it is the policy of this House, and it is within the law of this House, that when someone is suspended they are eligible to be paid during that suspension.