States Meeting Transcript - 09/10/2007

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 9th OCTOBER 2007

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

1. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE NUMBER OF PERSONS AGED UNDER 21 REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED:....................................................7
2. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY

G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE NUMBERS OF YOUNG PEOPLE ON APPRENTICESHIP SCHEMES:..........................................7

3. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY

G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING NON-LOCALLY QUALIFIED EMPLOYEES:..........................................................................8

4. TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY

G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING CODES OF PRACTICE FOR AWARDING STATES CONTRACTS:..................................................9

5. TO THE CHIEF MINISTER BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE ANNUAL BUSINESS PLAN 2008 - 2010 FIGURES:.............9
6. TO THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE STAFFING OF THE JOINT FINANCIAL CRIMES UNIT:..................................................................................10
7. TO THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES:.............................................11
8. TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BY THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARTIN REGARDING THE JONATHAN COOPER OPINION:...............................................12
9. TO THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE BY DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE AMPHIBIOUS FERRY SERVICE AT WEST PARK:.................................13
10. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING AN INCIDENT INVOLVING THE CHARITY SHIP LOGOS 11:............................................................................15
11. TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING POSSIBLE STUDIES ON STAFFING COSTS IN SPECIFIC STATES DEPARTMENTS:.......................16
12. TO THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE ACTION TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE LEGAL ADVICE CONTAINED WITHIN THE COMMITTEE OF

INQUIRY INTO TENDER PROCESS AND AWARD OF BUS SERVICES CONTRACT (R.C.58/2005):...........................................................16

13. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE LEASE OF OFFICES IN BATH STREET:...............................................................................17

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................17

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a land swap between the States and a local company:........................17 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):.............................................................................17

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................17
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................18
3. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................18
4. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................18

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................19

2. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the nature of police investigations into certain operational practices within Jersey Customs:.........19 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):.......................19

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................19
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................19
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................19
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................20

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the cost of "lay-over" facilities for buses on the Albert Pier:............................20 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):...20

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................21
3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................21
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................21
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................21

4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding whether G.S.T. would be charged on Sky or other satellite television subscriptions:....22 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ..........................22
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Economic Development regarding (j) category licences:.........................................................22 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................22

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................22
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................23
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................23
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................23
5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................24
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................24

6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the current position wit the Jersey Milk Marketing Board and milk producers following the publication of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel's review of the dairy industry:..................24 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................24

1. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................25
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................25

7. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Housing regarding the impact of changes to (j) category accommodation on the housing market:........................25 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ............................................26

1. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................26
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................26

3. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................26

8. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the funding for children aged 3 and 4 years to access free education:.......................27 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................27

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................27
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................27
3. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................27
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................27
5. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour:...............................................28
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................28
7. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade : ..................................................28
8. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................28
9. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................28

9. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding interim measures employed to ensure the Children's Service performed adequately:............29 Senator J.L. Perchard (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):......29

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................29
2. Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier : ..........................................................30
3. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................30
4. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................30
5. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................31
6. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................31
7. Deputy J.J. Huet:.......................................................................32
8. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................32

10. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Chief Minister regarding the impact of Guernsey's sewage disposal system on Jersey: ..............................................................32

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................32

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................32
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................33

11. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the construction of facilities for Connex drivers on the Albert Pier:........................33 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ................33

1. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................33
2. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................34

12. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the benefit to Jersey of the introduction of unregulated investment products:...........34 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................34

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................34
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................35
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................35

13. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the June 2007 manpower statistics:..............................................................35 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................35

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................36
2. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................36
3. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................36
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................37
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................37

3. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Housing ....................37

1. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................38 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ............................................38

1. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................38
   2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................38
   3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................39

3.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................39

4. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:...................................................39
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................40
6. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................40
7. Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:........................................................40

4. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Chief Minister...........................41

1. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................41
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................41

4.2.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................42

3. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................42
4. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................42
5. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................42
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................42
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................43
8. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................43
9. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................43
10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................44
11. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................44
12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................44
13. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................44
14. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................44
15. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................45

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................45

5. Statement by the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the future composition and election of the States:......................................45

5.1 Connétable D.F. Gray of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee): .........................................................................................45

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................46
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................47
3. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................47
4. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................47
5. Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:................................................................47
6. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................48
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................48

6. Statement by the Chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel regarding G.S.T:....................................................................................48

6.1 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier (Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):......48

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................49
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................49
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................50
4. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................50
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................50
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51
7. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................51
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

7. Statement by the President of the Scrutiny Chairmen's Committee regarding the release of information to the media:....................................................51

7.1 Deputy S.C. Ferguson (President, Scrutiny Chairmen's Committee):...................51

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................52
2. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................52
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................53
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................53
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................53 The Bailiff :...................................................................................54
6. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................54

8. Statement by the Chief Minister concerning industrial action by members of the T.G.W.U. (Transport and General Workers Union) at the harbour:..................54

8.1 Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................54

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................55

9. Employment (Jersey) Law 2003: therapeutic work schemes (P.141/2007)............55

The Bailiff :...................................................................................55 9.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................56

1. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................57
2. Deputy A. Breckon:....................................................................57
3. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................57
4. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: ..............................................................58
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................58
6. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................58
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................59
8. Senator F.H. Walker :...................................................................59
9. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:.......................................................59
10. Deputy I.J. Gorst :....................................................................60 The Bailiff :...................................................................................61

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................61 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................62

PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumed..................................................................62 The Bailiff :...................................................................................62

10. Draft Income Support (Jersey) Regulations 200- (P.90/2007)..........................62

10.1 Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................62

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................67
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................75
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................76
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................77
5. Deputy P.N. Troy :...................................................................80
6. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:...........................................................82
7. Deputy A. Breckon: .................................................................82
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................84
9. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................85 The Bailiff :...................................................................................89

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED.................................................................90 Senator S. Syvret:............................................................................90 The Bailiff :...................................................................................90

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................90

The Roll was called and the Deputy Greffier led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE NUMBER OF PERSONS AGED UNDER 21 REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED:

Question

Will the Minister inform members of the number of young people under 21 registered as unemployed as at 1st September 2007 and each of the preceding five years?

Answer

I am afraid that I cannot give figures for people registering as unemployed with the Department who are under the age of 21 as at 1st September. The mechanism for recording unemployment statistics works on age bands and I can give figures for people under 24 for the past five years at the end of August each year.

2007 168 2006 170 2005 153 2004 163 2003 101.

My only comments on these figures are that they may not be typical of youth unemployment as they relate to the summer months and may be influenced by seasonal work and the relatively large number of students looking for work. Monthly averages for the years in question are

2007 N/A 2006 104 2005 105 2004 151 2003 94.

2. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE NUMBERS OF YOUNG PEOPLE ON APPRENTICESHIP SCHEMES:

Question

Will the Minister inform members of the numbers of 16-19 year olds taken on to apprenticeship schemes, both States-supported and other, over the past five years and will he account for any changes over this period?

Answer

The Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme (JAS) originated in 1997 and was previously managed by the Training and Employment Partnership. In 2001 the scheme was adjusted to reflect changes in working and training practices and it has remained unchanged since then. The scheme offers advice and financial support for approved employers who are committed to providing both on and off the job training to apprentices. The JAS offers opportunities across all the traditional building trades, marine engineering, welding and hairdressing.

Over the past five years 434 apprentices have enrolled in the Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme of which 346 have been aged between 16-19 years. A breakdown of individual years 2002-06 is shown in the table below

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2002

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2003

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2004

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2005

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2006

In addition to the Jersey  Apprenticeship Scheme Economic Development,  in partnership with Health and Social Services, introduced a Cadet Nursing Scheme in 2006 and enrolled the first 16 trainee nurses in January 2007. The Scheme provides a two year apprenticeship for 16-19 year olds, who on successful completion are guaranteed employment with Health and Social Services and provided with further training and development opportunities.

Whilst we are aware that non-States funded, private apprenticeships do take place on the Island, we are unable to comment on the amount as there is no data collected and/or held for this.

3. TO  THE  MINISTER  FOR  ECONOMIC  DEVELOPMENT  BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN  OF  ST.  HELIER  REGARDING  NON-LOCALLY  QUALIFIED EMPLOYEES:

Question

1. Will the Minister inform members whether those non-locally qualified (NLQ) employees engaged by local firms on a secondment or short-term contract basis are included in the manpower figures used to measure and report on NLQ quotas under RUDL?
2. Will he further indicate for members what length of contract would qualifyto be classified as short-term or secondment?
3. Will the Minister also inform members what data he has in number and percentage terms of such secondment/short-term contract employees, engaged in the sectors monitored by the manpower reports? Can he also produce comparative figures for five years ago?
4. Will the Minister further inform members how RUDL conditions are applied in the case of short-term contracts or sub-contract conditions in the construction industry?

Answer

1. All staff engaged by local employers are included in the manpower figures.

2. Contract licences are issued to construction businesses to engage staff in relation to specific, time limited contracts. These contracts are not defined as short termor otherwise, but, being limited to the specific contract in question, are limited by the very nature ofthe industry and development in the Island.
3. As reported in the Regulation of Undertakings Employment Licences Statistical Releases, in 2006 licences were issued to engage 479 staff on a contract basis, compared to 775 in 2005. These contracts will beof varying length, and as such, it is not possible to provide an accurate percentage analysis between contract and non contract staff at a point in time. However, to place this issue in context, it is worth noting that 5,060 people were employed in the construction industry as at 31st December, 2006, of whom, including staff engaged on a contract basis, 550, or 11% of the total, were non locally qualified.
4. When a local undertaking applies for a contract licence, it must provide evidence of having advertised locally, and the numbers of non locals it intends to employ on the contract. Once this information is received and analysed, a decision is made on whether to issue the licence.

4. TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING CODES OF PRACTICE FOR AWARDING STATES CONTRACTS:

Question

Will the Minister indicate to members whether any codes are in place to allow Ministers when deciding between rival bids for States contracts to award such contracts on grounds other than financial/best value terms, such as a company's record of employment of locally qualified workers or of numbers of apprenticeships? If not, will the Minister consider the introduction of such codes?

Answer

There is a general presumption when putting States contracts out to tender that the lowest bid will be accepted unless there are sound reasons for choosing one at a higher value. This might include delivery times, quality of supply or other relevant factors.

The current States Financial Codes of Direction do not directly address the issue of contractors' employment of locally qualified staff or apprentices. However consideration is at present being given as to how the States evaluates tenders via two connected pieces of work. The first is the development of a Procurement Strategy in which the States position in relation to building sustainable communities is outlined. The second is the review of the various Financial Codes of Direction that relate to procurement. It is intended that an update to the Codes will give guidance on the award of contracts in accordance with the principles of the Most Economically Advantageous Tender in which a range of criteria including for example, cost, quality, servicing, technical capability are weighted according to the goods, services or works being procured. In the UK some local authorities are specifically including criteria for selection that supports the strategic initiative of building sustainable communities, by including such criteria as development of skilled labour and number of apprenticeships. Application of this type of criteria must be used appropriately as it can be considered discriminatory and may also lead to distortion of competition. These and other issues will be considered as part of the work in progress, on which consultation is due to be completed by the end of 2007 and revised policy documents published by the end of February 2008.

5. TO THE CHIEF MINISTER BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE ANNUAL BUSINESS PLAN 2008 - 2010 FIGURES:

Question

In the light of the summary statement below and the draft 2008 -2010 figures presented at the Annual Business Plan briefing for members of 23rd March 2007, does the Chief Minister now accept that the concerns I raised during the Business Plan debate over significant transfers of funding from the Rural and Tourism sectors to Enterprise and Business Development, Finance and Policy areas in the Economic Development budget and the misleading nature of such figures given the eventual budget outcome were fully justified?

SUMMARY OF ISSUES RAISED BY DEPARTMENTS

The attached summary has been prepared following the Council's meeting of 8th March 2007. This summary represents the key issues raised by departments in their returns and also those issues highlighted by Ministers at their meeting of 8th March.

Economic Development

The service changes identified reflect:

• The remaining resource allocation savings and gradual winding down of agricultural subsidies are planned
• Reductions in Tourism marketing and PR spend
• Significant business re-engineering refocusing which will enable funding and subsidies to new areas to promote economic growth including new monies

• High value industries
• Develop air and sea routes
• Further market and develop finance industry

• Other pressures in Regulation office, grant funding of JCRA.

Answer

In March 2007 Officers were asked to identify the pressures facings their departments and how the departments would likely address those pressures if funding was not granted. Given that the 2008 Business Plan does not provide growth funding for EDD, it is entirely appropriate that the Department should reallocate its funding to its highest priorities.

I understand that the Department is currently conducting a zero base review of all its 2008 objectives but does not have any intentions to decrease direct support to the rural or tourism sectors. In line with the majority of Jersey's economy both the rural and tourism sectors showed improved economic performance in 2006 with real terms growth of 2% and 3% respectively and there is a strong desire to continue to build on this turnaround in performance.

6. TO THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OFST. HELIER REGARDING THE STAFFING OF THE JOINT FINANCIAL CRIMES UNIT:

Question

Will the Minister advise members, what steps, if any, have been taken to address the less than adequate staffing' of the Joint Financial Crimes Unit (JFCU) that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) reported in 2003, and will she inform members if the current level of staffing and experience within the JFCU now meets the requirements of the IMF?

Answer

In 2003 the IMF report identified that the JFCU was under resourced with 15 permanent personnel (2.5 being temporary) and that effort should be made to bring it up to strength.

Therefore the authorised establishment today is 17.5 posts although the actual establishment of the unit at today's date is 18.5 permanent staff.

The JFCU contains the following:

1 Detective Inspector

2 Detective Sergeants 9 Detective Constables

1 Senior Customs and Immigration Officer 2 Customs and Immigration Officers

3.5  Civilian staff ____ 18.5 Total

It is considered that we currently meet all our international obligations regarding co-operation and providing mutual assistance, whilst resources are kept under constant review.

Where workloads may be expected to increase with proposed enhancements to the regulatory regime, resources will be considered within the financial and manpower implication reports accompanying those proposals.

An IMF working party/steering group has been meeting regularly to review the 2003 IMF recommendations and consider proposals for the 2008 review. This steering group includes delegates from the SOJP, Law Officers' Department and Jersey Financial Services Commission.

7. TO THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES:

Question

Would the Minister inform members how many layers of management exist at Health and Social Services between the Chief Executive Officer and nurses and state whether he will be taking any steps to amend the present structure?

Answer

Nurses work in a variety of health and social care contexts with differing levels of clinical complexity and freedom to act in their various roles. Across the Department, the number of layers of management between a nurse and the Chief Executive varies from two to four. In Education Services within Health and Social Services for example, a nurse may report to a nurse manager who then reports to the Director of Nursing and then the Chief Executive (two layers). On a General and Acute ward, a nurse reports to a ward sister who in turn reports to a senior nurse. The senior nurse reports to the Directorate Manager who reports to the Chief Executive (three layers). In some social care and community settings, where a nurse may work with significant autonomy, there are four layers. Such levels of management are comparable with other Island and National Health authorities.

The driver behind levels of management in nursing is patient safety and clinical governance. The profession has gone through significant changes in recent years driving through significant improvements in the role of nurses and their impact upon patient care. As I am new to the post I intend to review all services within the Department.

8. TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BY THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARTIN REGARDING THE JONATHAN COOPER OPINION:

Question

1. (a) Does the Attorney General shareMr.JonathanCooper'sview in hisOpiniongivento him by theformerEducationandHomeAffairsScrutinyPanelon14th May 2007,thatthere is a systemicviolationofArticle 6 oftheEuropeanConventiononHumanRightsontheground that the dual role' ofthe Magistrate does not give the impression that the Court is independent and impartial?

2. Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view thatthe role of Centeniers inrelationtofixingandlistingtrialsintheMagistrate'sCourtgivesriseto a systemicviolation of Article 6 on the basis that it compromises the independence andimpartialityoftheCourt?
3. DoestheAttorney General share Mr. Cooper's view thatArticle 6 now requirestheretobe a professional prosecutorial system in place as partofthe general obligation for fairness?
4. Does the Attorney Generalshare Mr. Cooper's view thatthere is a systemicviolationofArticle14 in relationto Article 6, insofar as a distinction is drawn between more serious offences (dealt with by legal advisers) and less serious offences (dealt with by Centeniers)?
5. Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view thatthere may be a systemicviolation of Article 8 on the grounds those victims' rights may not be properly guaranteed?

2. When the Attorney General appeared before the Social Affairs Scrutiny Panel on 6thNovember 2006 he suggested that there would need to be two or three legal staff plus secretarial supportandthatsalary costs for this staff would be roundabout£300,000 a year if staffinhisdepartmenthandledallcases in theMagistrate'sCourt,shouldtheCenteniers'roleinCourt cease. WouldtheAttorneyGeneralprovide a detailedbreakdownofthisestimate?
3. Will the Attorney Generalstatewhether a roleequivalentto designated case workers, as employed by the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Crown Prosecution Service on an average salaryof between £27,000-£30,000,would in principle be acceptable in Jersey (this would require amendment to Legislation) and if so how the creation of such posts would affect the estimate of the salary costs mentioned in the preceding paragraph?
4. Whatcapacity is thereforthecurrentlegaladviserstotakeonadditionalworkinthe Magistrate's Court?

Answer

1. The opinion of Mr. Cooper usefully contains some references to material which is routine but necessary in the analysis ofthe compatibility of a trial process with the European Convention on Human Rights. Mr. Cooper also expresses however his conclusions on the application of that material toour criminal justice system. As with many human rights issues, it is possible for lawyers to advance different views – and the right place to adjudicate on those is in court. Mr. Cooper's opinion has been useful in stimulating a reviewin my Department on human rights grounds ofwhat is a very small number of cases each year where the Magistrate has a

dual rôle in determining guilt or innocence – I am advised this number is approximately 20 of which in excess of 50% are likely to be the disputed administrative offences of parking infractions.

It is also appropriate to reflect that where there is an allegation of bias, whether actual bias or an objective perception of bias, the determination of the matter by the court will be heavily influenced by the facts of the case before it.

It is also appropriate to recall that the Magistrate is a public authority under the Human Rights (Jersey) Law, 2000, and that he can always call upon a Legal Adviser to present a case if he considers that in that case he is unable to perform his judicial duties without infringing a person's Convention rights.

Against that background, the answers to the questions are -

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. No.
5. No.

2. I regret I have been away from the IslandonStatesbusinessduringthe last week and have not had the timeto deal with this question. However, the evidence which I gave to the Panel was concerned with the cost of lawyers and support staff dealing with all cases before the Magistrate's Court. If one were dealing only with thetwentyorsocasesreferredtoin question 1 above, the additional cost would be considerably less than this.
3. What is acceptable in principle in Jersey as a prosecution process is primarily a matter for the States although they will undoubtedly wish to receive the views ofthe Crown through the Attorney General with his responsibility for the prosecution service.

There is undoubtedly more than one way in which the prosecution process could be structured. The job of dedicated case workers, as I understand it, could be viewed as very similar to that which could be performed by a cadre of trained Centeniers.

No costings have been prepared for what is at present a speculative outcome but this work can be done if the States, the Home Affairs Minister or the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel so require.

4. All parts ofthe Law Officers' Department work under pressure. It is no secret that I have frequently sought more resources. Until those are made available, the Law Officers will continue todo the best they can. However, if the question is intended toaskwhether the Law Officers could do all the work of the Centeniers in the Magistrate's Court without any additional appointments, the answer is that we could not do so without adversely affecting other legal services given to the States and to Ministers.

9. TO THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE BY DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE AMPHIBIOUS FERRY SERVICE AT WEST PARK:

Question

1. Would the Minister advise members how many days that Elizabeth Castle had to close during 2007 due to –

1. the late arrival in Jersey of the amphibious vehicle known as the Castle Ferry,
2. the number of recorded breakdowns to date of the Castle Ferry,
3. the non-operational natureorother problems directly associated with the Castle Ferry that closed Elizabeth Castle for any other reason?

2. Would the Minister advise the Assembly ofthe admission figures to Elizabeth Castle for the comparable periods in 2006 and 2005 and would he further advise whetherthe estimated cost, in terms of lossofrevenuetotheJerseyHeritageTrustcausedbytheseenforced closures, will be recovered from the new operator?
3. When are the two new amphibious machines referredto in the award ofthe new operating contract (2007) dueto arrive in Jersey, when will the existing machine cease service and does he intend to review the operating contractofthe new operator in light ofthe first season's experience?
4. Would the Minister advise -

1. how many persons were admitted andattended the event held at Elizabeth Castle on28th July 2007, how many people, if any, were stranded at the Castle after midnight, owing to a breakdown of the CastleFerry and what time the Castle authorities finally evacuated and closed the Castle on the morning of Sunday 29th July?
2. whether the Statesof Jersey Police asked for a meeting withthe Jersey Heritage Trust owing to this incident to review operating procedures and contingencies?

Answer

1. During 2007 Elizabeth Castle had to close for 63 days due to the late arrival in Jersey ofthe Amphibious Vehicle known as the Castle Ferry.

There have been nine breakdowns or mechanical failures of the Castle Ferry to date, resulting in castle being closed for 30 hours.

Other problems which affected the ferry service leading to a closure of the Castle were due to the weather: five full days, 23 partial days. Total hours = 116 hours. By way of additional information I would like to add that in 2006, there were three full days, six partial days and an additional 11 hours (estimate 53 hours) of closure due to adverse weather conditions.

2. The admission figures to Elizabeth Castle for the comparable periods in 2006 and 2005 were as follows:

Admission figures start of season - end September

2005 42,240

2006 37,615

2007 21,726

Admission figures from 4 June (start of 2007 season at EC) - end September

2005 28,395

2006 27,952

2007 21,726

The estimated loss of income will be recovered by the Jersey Heritage Trust from the new operator.

3. The new vessels are due to arrive in Jersey this October. However as there is less than one month left ofthe season (closes 5th November) it is envisaged that the two new vessels will begin operating the service at the start of 2008 season.

The Jersey Heritage Trust will be reviewing the contract with the new operators.

4. With regard to the event held at Elizabeth Castle on 28th July 2007, 6.30pm – 2am. There were 1,500 guests, of which 640 were delivered on the Castle Ferry. No guests were stranded after midnight.Theeventfinishedat 2am. Thecastlewasclear by 2.20am bysecuritystaff hired by the event organisers in accordance withthe event plan. The guests either walked back across the beach or took coach or Castle Ferry as arranged in the plan. The causeway was lit.

The only unfortunate incident that occurred with the Castle Ferry was on the outbound journey to the castle when a mechanical fault slowed the vessel down which resulted in guests arriving at the Castle later than anticipated.

All transport arrangements and payments of the Castle Ferry outside of Jersey Heritage Trust opening hours are arranged directly between the operator and event organisers.

The States of Jersey Police have not requested a meeting with the Jersey Heritage Trust.

10. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING AN INCIDENT INVOLVING THE CHARITY SHIP LOGOS 11:

Question

1. Would the Minister advise members whether, on 20th June 2007 when the Library and Educational Charity Ship Logos II was docking in Jersey, the starboard bow ofthe ship hit the Victoria Quay, causing damage to some land ties adjacent to the cement pump housing location and dragging a harbour crane along the Victoria Quayfor some distance and then the ship allegedly reversed into the former harbour workboat, Duchesse of Normandie ?
2. Would the Minister confirm whether any employees of Jersey Harbours were on the bridge of Logos II during this alleged incident, and if so, what role they were performing?
3. Can the Minister confirm whether a Jersey qualified Port Pilot was on board the ship and whether the investigation into this alleged incidentby the Marine and Coastguard Agency, through its Marine Accident Investigation Branch will be made public?

Answer

1. An accident did occur as outlined in the question. This is a matter of public knowledge and was reported at the time in the media. I can confirm that some damage occurred to the land ties, crane and two small vessels.
2. Two employees of Jersey Harbours were present in the ship at the time

1. on the bridge was a Jersey qualified pilot who was carrying out his duties regarding the berthing of the ship;
2. the Harbour Master was also on board. As a pastcrew member ofthe vessel he was there in a personal capacity visiting friends. During his visit, he spent some time in the canteen below decks and also spent some time on the bridge deck. The MAIB have told methathe was notpartofthebridgeteam and tooknopartinthedecision making orhandlingofthe ship.

3. I can indeed confirm the presence of a Jersey qualified pilot, and this was in accordance with the requirements ofthe Pilotage (Jersey) Law 1988. The accident is under investigation by the Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB). The report into the accident will be made public. This is as stated in the Ministerial Decision of 5th July 2007.

I need to reiterate what we said in the Press Release of 5th July: "Once the investigation is completed the report will be publicly available and until such time it is regretted no further comment can be made."

11. TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING POSSIBLE STUDIES ON STAFFING COSTS IN SPECIFIC STATES DEPARTMENTS:

Question

Is the Committee undertaking any studies presently or in the next financial year on staffing costs in specific States departments? If so, in which departments?

Answer

The Public Accounts Committee reviews the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General and will hold public hearings regarding those which it considers to be of public interest.

Reports to date have considered the costs of sickness of staff in the public sector but detailed reports on staffing costs in a particular department have not yet been considered. The main emphasis so far has been the financial framework of the States.

The Public Accounts Committee considers staffing costs to be an important part of the efficiency, economy and effectiveness of operation of a department and would look at these in the context of the services offered. Moreover, staff costs comprise around 50 per cent of the expenditure of the States and will, therefore, form an important focus for the work of the Committee.

The programme for the Comptroller and Auditor General in 2008 is still under discussion but the concerns of the Deputy will be taken in account when this is discussed with the Public Accounts Committee.

12. TO THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE ACTIONTAKENIN RESPECT OF THE LEGAL ADVICE CONTAINED WITHIN THE COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY INTO TENDER PROCESS AND AWARD OF BUS SERVICES CONTRACT (R.C.58/2005):

Question

Has the Minister received the legal advice (Recommendation 6 of Committee of Inquiry into Tender Process and Award of Bus Services Contract, R.C.58/2005) and, if so, what action has been taken?

Answer

Legal advice was received in January 2007 and since that date discussions have been ongoing with Connex. It would be inappropriate at this stage to divulge the nature of these discussions as they have not yet been completed. Any agreement resulting from these discussions will be independently reviewed by the Comptroller and Auditor General as part of his scheduled audit of the current bus contract due to be undertaken within the next few months.

13. TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE LEASE OF OFFICES INBATH STREET:

Question

Would the Minister outline the annual cost of renting departmental offices in Bath Street, St. Helier , the length of the current  lease and on what basis the length of the current lease was determined?

Answer

The annual cost of renting the departmental offices in Bath Street, with effect from 1st March 2006, is £44,000 payable quarterly in advance on the usual quarter days throughout the present lease.

The period of the current lease is nine consecutive years which commenced on 1st March 2003.

The basis of the current lease, being of nine years' duration, reflects standard practices of commercial lease durations. A break clause was included within the lease, which allowed the lessee to terminate the lease on 1st March 2006 by serving notice on or before 1st October 2005. This break clause has now been renegotiated and will now allow the lessee to terminate the lease on 28th February 2009 by serving six months' notice on or before 1st September 2008.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a land swap between the States and a local company:

Under what criteria was the land swap agreed with Five Mile Limited of land to the south of the Watersplash (R.94/2007 refers) which includes the transfer to the company of a small coastal strip in a highly sensitive area?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): I will ask my Assistant Minister to deal with this answer please.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):

Negotiations for this transfer go back to 2004 and the strip of land in question is, broadly speaking, a rutted track about 8 feet wide and which is used for vehicle access and has over time I believe expanded into additional parking in the area to the south of the Watersplash. The transaction the Deputy refers to involves a swap for this piece of land and the public will, in return, receive two significantly larger pieces of land on the opposite side of the road which are adjacent to St. Ouen's Pond. While I am not a member of planning, I would note that it is my understanding that both the areas in question are in the green zone as opposed to the zone without its own character, and given its present use I would submit that the public are receiving something that is potentially of greater environmental benefit given the proximity to St. Ouen's Pond and hopefully something that we can improve upon in the future in an environmental sense.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given the highly sensitive nature of this piece of land would the rapporteur indicate what understandings were reached as to the future use of this particular piece of land?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Before I go into that, could the Deputy clarify his definition of the sensitivity of the nature of the land, please?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

In an area of the coast of Jersey which is regarded as highly sensitive and where if not in all aspects there is a presumption against development.

That is why I defined the area as being in the green zone rather than without its own character, although we are treading out of my areas of expertise into planning matters. My understanding is that there is a proposal that involves the redevelopment of the Watersplash and which in my view should be quite a significant improvement than what already exists in the area. I do not know fully the details of the scheme and that will be a matter for the Planning Minister to resolve, however, strong support has been given by the Minister for Economic Development and the former Economic Development Committee, and it is felt that it is quite important for tourism. As I already said, I would reiterate in our opinion we are receiving something that is of greater environmental benefit by receiving the land closer to St. Ouen 's Pond given the nature of the existing land strip that is being transferred.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the rapporteur not acknowledge that really his department, and potentially Planning, have got themselves into a major pickle because there  is a real possibility that this land could be developed and that is by implication what they have agreed to?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré

I think that is potentially the whole point. I do not think we are in a pickle at all, Sir. It is a very, very thin strip. It is 8 feet wide. It is of little environmental benefit as far as I understand it. I understand that all of this type of scheme will be controlled by the Planning Minister and, as I said,

from a public point of view, I think we have acquired something that is of potentially greater environmental benefit by acquiring something for the public on the other side of the road closer to St. Ouen 's Pond, which in the context of that immediate area, is probably the most sensitive.

3. Senator S. Syvret:

Is it not the case that the Deputy himself is interested in properties on the coastal strip of St. Ouen's Bay and it could be argued that he may be conflicted in terms of establishing developmental precedent?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We did consider that matter because obviously I do own a property that is half a mile to a mile down the road and in the end the conclusion is if you apply that criteria to anybody within the Island of having an interest within a property within a half a mile to a mile of another transaction I think we would all be in trouble. So, essentially no. So, we did consider it quite carefully and the general view is that I do not have a conflict, Sir.

Senator S. Syvret:

The point was, Sir, encouraging other owners in that area to be able to develop establishes a precedent which will benefit other owners in the region.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As I said, Sir, I do not know if I want to get into the personal nature of matters. I am in a different zoning and ultimately those types of things come under the remit of the Planning Minister, Sir.

4. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

I used to be Chairman of the Sub-Committee and it was always very, very sensitive that area. I wonder if the Assistant Minister could advise me, because of the sensitivity - and clearly some departments are in favour of this - was it taken to the Council of Ministers for overall consideration

because I perceive that this is where, under Ministerial government, maybe such sensitivity should be discussed.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I do get slightly puzzled as to we talk about the sensitivity of the area, Sir. As I said it is about an eight-foot wide sand and rutted track as far as I understand it. We are achieving something which is considered to be of better environmental value. In terms of anything involving development proposals and things like that, that is under the remit of the Planning Minister. What we are dealing with is a land transaction here, Sir, so it will be down to the Planning Minister with his planning and his environmental hat on to deal with whatever the nature of the scheme is.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Just a final wrap-up: would the Assistant Minister - or the rapporteur - now concede that a major mistake was made in that a highly protected piece of land has been granted and he has allowed a piece of land to be let out even though he trivialises and minimises its extent, and he is setting a very dangerous precedent?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: No, Sir.

2. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the nature of police investigations into certain operational practices within Jersey Customs:

Will the Minister advise Members of the nature of the police investigations into certain operational practices within Jersey Customs and explain why the investigations are not being carried out internally by the Customs Service?

Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):

I can confirm that the following consultation with the Law Officers' Department, the force is conducting an investigation with a view to submitting a report to the Attorney General. As the investigation is live no further information can be given at this time.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am just concerned about the operation of the Customs Service. Are the people suspended and are those people who are suspended, are their places being implemented by someone else? I think it is interesting that Customs are running the country.

The Deputy of St. John :

I can confirm there are no suspensions at this time, Sir.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Why is it that when I spoke to the Deputy on the Friday afternoon he was unable to tell me any of the detail in relation to something that was occurring and yet States Members learn about the detail in the Jersey Evening Post. Why is it that matters of this nature that are sensitive appear in the newspapers and other forms of media when States Members are unaware of the issues themselves?

The Deputy of St. John :

The detail the Deputy is referring to is in fact that there is no detail in that press report, if you look at it carefully. In fact, some of it was wild speculation so I can confirm that ordinarily we would inform Members of this House when appropriate before the media. That is certainly the process that we would take. Some of the speculation in the media was speculation and I cannot really comment on the case any further. You will see from that reporting that they made little comment as well because they did not have any information of any substance.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Could I ask then, Sir, how the media came to know about the situation? Although there is no detail, how did the Jersey Evening Post know about the situation?

The Deputy of St. John :

Knowing that this situation was occurring, a press release was drawn-up should we have had an inquiry from the press - which we ended up having - and so the release was made and you will see from the statement it was very brief because we cannot give much information at this time. Quite how the press found out about it, I am afraid I do not know. They made a call to our department to ask some questions. We gave them a brief statement which was already prepared in anticipation of this possibly happening. How, effectively what the Deputy may refer to as a leak occurred, I do not know, Sir.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Last question, Sir: would it not be then if it is prudent to prepare for the media inquiring, a general statement prepared for the States Members at the same time. If you are going to prepare information for the media in case they get leaked the story, is it not also appropriate the States Members are given a brief at the same time?

The Deputy of St. John :

Ministers that needed to know about this were made well aware and it should in the future it be necessary to make such a statement to Members, we will certainly consider it, but like I say, this is a very sensitive inquiry and there was, at that stage, no need for Members to know. But I do accept the Deputy 's concern that Members perhaps should have known about this before it broke in the press. I do accept that, but it was a sensitive inquiry and it was information was released on a "need to know" basis and that field was quite narrow.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the cost of "lay-over" facilities for buses on the Albert Pier:

Would the Minister identify the cost of renting "lay-over" facilities for buses on the Albert Pier and advise the cost of other facilities provided as part of this arrangement?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): The annual rental cost for the bus drivers' facilities on the Albert Pier is £44,000 in the first year, rising to £53,679 from year 2. The premises have been rented from Harbours and the rental has been independently validated. They require refurbishment and extension to provide a canteen and restroom at a cost of £184,296 including all fees. Furthermore, because this facility introduces a third operational site for Connex, as they will continue to operate out of the La Collette depot as well as Liberation Station and the Albert Pier premises, a minibus driver is required to ferry staff to and from the various sites as well as requirement for some supervision at the Albert Pier. This cost amounts to £27,500. The estimated increase in utility and servicing costs of the canteen over and above that currently provided in Nautilus House at the Weighbridge is £4,350 per annum.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister accept notwithstanding the excellence in many respects of the new Liberation Station, would he not accept, Sir, that it is totally unforgivable to have added these costs to his budget when no indication was given that these additional infrastructure costs were going to be incurred? Secondly, Sir, could he tell us - when he is for ever complaining about his inability to lift one extra weed on the Islands' roads - where this money is coming from?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The fact of the matter is that in moving from the Weighbridge, the drivers for Connex were faced with losing canteen facilities. I will not go into extensive detail on the Deputy 's supplementary question because Deputy Power has a primary question on the subject of transfer from La Collette and the Buncefield issue which is a very significant feature in all this. The monies will obviously have to come out of the budgets associated with running a bus service within the Island and, no, I do not I sincerely hope that this is not an unforgivable move; I hope the States are not just in a forgiving mood but will understand precisely the reasons why I have had to take these measures, frankly in order to make sure that the bus service continues to run properly and efficiently.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I have received some complaints and concerns from residents in the district that live down there that are going to be affected by the increase to the traffic out of all of this. I would just like to ask the Deputy why in the past when we considered alternative locations for the buses - namely up St. John's Road - there was consultation with the residents, why in this instance there was not any?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

My department has received one complaint from a resident who lives on the route between Liberation Station and the Albert Pier. In reality the Albert Pier area has been in the past used by Easylink as a bus lay-over position and to a large extent there is a very considerable amount of traffic running between the Elizabeth Terminal, the Albert Pier and roundabout by the underpass. Frankly speaking, I do not think that this move of Connex Buses will make any significant difference to the existing traffic situation. The reason for picking the Albert Pier site as opposed to some distant location is that in order for buses and drivers to have lay-over opportunities and rest breaks, it is absolutely critical that those can be carried out as near to the bus station as possible, otherwise it will interfere with timetabling arrangements which will, therefore, have a knock-on effect to make the entire operation less efficient than it currently is.

3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

Does the Minister intend to raise bus fares in the not too distant future in order to cover these unforeseen costs?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The Minister has no intention of raising bus fares but may be forced to.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is quite helpful the response that the Minister gave me in regards to my last question. I would just like to ask how many buses are we talking about parked there and how many bus movements are we talking about on a daily basis? If the Minister does know, can he tell us, and if he does not know, can he inform us at a later stage.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I can give an educated guess as to the first part of the Deputy 's question, Sir, and that is effectively the lay-over facilities will be used by the entire bus fleet at one time or another because all drivers are entitled to go to a break at their canteen. How many bus movements, Sir, that will involve over the day I simply do not know off the top of my head but I will undertake to give the Deputy a response to that.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge - notwithstanding the excellence in many respects from a customer point of view of Liberation Station - that this was a major planning flaw and he has basically inherited a highly defective project in that regard.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The Liberation Station project goes back to a States' decision of 1996, which as a Minister acting in an executive role, I have now carried through. I am very happy to sit down with the Deputy at a time at his convenience and go through the very fascinating history of the development of Liberation Station. I have my own views on the matter but they are not pertinent at this juncture.

4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding whether G.S.T. would be charged on Sky or other satellite television subscriptions: Further to news that G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) will not be charged on the B.B.C. (British Broadcasting Corporation) television licence, can the Minister inform Members whether G.S.T. will be charged on Sky or other satellite television subscriptions?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Firstly I should explain to Members why the B.B.C. licence fee is not subject to V.A.T. (Value Added Tax) in the U.K. and will not be subject to G.S.T. when the tax is introduced next May. The B.B.C.'s legal status is that of a public authority. Its broadcasting activity is carried out under terms of the Royal Charter and is financed by means of the licence fee. The broadcasting activity is, therefore, not considered to be business activity for consumption tax purposes because it is carried out as part of its duties as a public authority. This is not the case for other independent television companies, including Sky, which operate as normal commercial organisations and derive income through a range of business activities which are subject to tax. Subscribers in the U.K. are currently charged 17.5 per cent V.A.T. and subscribers in Jersey will be charged three per cent G.S.T. after May next year. This is because the tax is levied in the place of consumption rather than the place of supply.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Economic Development regarding (j) category licences:

Would the Minister advise whether the number of locals seeking employment, especially school leavers and those completing further education courses, is factored-in to the equation for granting (j) category licence under the Regulation of Undertakings process? If so, what impact, if any, does it have on the amount of licences issued?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

The short answer is yes. The Housing Minister is responsible, of course, for the Housing Law granting (j) category to employees. I am responsible for the Regulation of Undertakings Law issuing licences for businesses, most on a three-year licence basis. However, we work together as a Migration Advisory Group with an Assistant Minister from the Chief Minister's Department so that we are entirely joined-up. Ensuring local people have jobs and receive training is our top priority. Also opportunities for school leavers is also a key consideration and is frequently discussed and made as a condition of many licences. Unemployment is at its lowest level of some years and locally qualified employment is at its highest level for some years. A standing invitation exists to any Member - including Deputy Baudains - if he would like to come and meet with me at Ministerial time to discuss how we go about this.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Could the Minister, therefore, reassure Members that the previous requirement that employers would make sure that they actively tried - should I say - to procure employees locally, and had a process in place to train up people to replace those that were leaving in the future, that that is not being diluted or allowed to be diluted with the current issuing of (j) category licence?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I should preface the answer by saying it is the legal responsibility of the Housing Minister to issue (j)s but we are entirely joined-up with Deputy Gorst and Senator Le Main and myself. In fact, I would say to the Deputy that in fact we have even fortified what we are doing  in terms of encouraging businesses to train. I would go further and say yesterday I had a meeting with the Minister for Education dealing with the Skills Executive; dealing how we are going to be putting in place more conditions on licences to ensure training is put in place for not only (j) categories but also for locally qualified. All businesses have to train. They have to employ local people and I am acutely aware of the importance of job opportunities for school leavers.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Minister give us concrete examples of where he has reduced, deferred or withdrawn or not allowed to go forward applications for (j)s and instructed a company to employ local people?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Again, the Deputy will know that I do not issue the (j)s. It is the Housing Minister that does so, but we are entirely joined-up. I would never discuss an individual application on the floor of the Assembly; those are private and confidential. But again I reiterate my offer to both Deputy Le Hérissier and Deputy Baudains to come and see what we are doing. The figures stand for themselves I think. Members will see that the numbers of locally qualified people under the definition of Regulation of Undertakings - those that have been here for more than 5 years - are up. The growth of employment is for locally qualified, more than 5-year resident, population and we are doing it every day. Not only at the Ministerial level but the department. Every day businesses if you have a (j); if you have a non-qualified; you have got to prove that you have exhausted the supply of locally qualified. Moreover that you trained your locally qualified people, raising productivity; job opportunities for all.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister confirm then that the number of (j) licences, as a policy issue if he is not able to deal with individuals, is now being reduced because there are many more locally qualified people available?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I do not think I have to tell the Deputy a third time, I am not legally responsible for (j)s. If he wishes to examine the Housing Minister on the (j) policies, then he can. But it is quite clear, the numbers of (j)s have increased but the overall employment has also increased. (j)s are very difficult to get but we do if we are expanding into new areas of financial services, in education areas, we need to put new manpower, new brainpower, into the Island to assist the locally qualified market too. I think the figures stand for themselves and show that our policies are working.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I believe it is time the Minister called States Members together for a briefing as to what is happening with the immigration policies. But can I ask, while he considers that, if he would extend his personal invitation to me to come to find out what is happening, I certainly do want to know. Can I ask specifically - because of some complaints that I have had - that he will look into whether or not there is any truth in the matter that the accession countries of the European Union who were previously here through a work permit situation, have not accumulated that 5-year residency while they were on their work permit scheme? Surely it would only be justifiable after the accession came

into place. People are complaining that part-time work, in particular, is not there for school leavers during holiday time because people from the accession countries are taking these positions. It might be anecdotal; it might not be factual. Will the Minister agree to look into this issue and tell us how those jobs are safeguarded and how those 5-year residencies are established in truth?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

A lot of questions. A massively important issue. I will try and be brief. Of course the standing invitation exists. We have already had - and Deputy Gorst and Senator Le Main will confirm - briefings on population. I do not know whether the Deputy was able to attend at the time but, yes, of course we will. The Council of Ministers is discussing this week a population paper and there is going to be some public debate about the whole issue of population. As far as the accession

countries are concerned, I would draw the attention of the Deputy to the Employment Report that we published last week, for the first time reconciling the Regulation of Undertakings numbers with the social security contributions. He can see the numbers of the new accession countries and other nationalities totally reconciled for the first time. As far as job opportunities are concerned for our young people and people in part-time work, I do not think there has ever been a situation where there are more job opportunities for part-time working and we are doing everything we can to ensure that we are bringing together people who want to work with employers. There is more to do but I think that I would say that it is not just would I agree to look into it; we are doing it and we are doing it, I hope, quite well.

5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Would the Minister inform the House how far talks have extended with Social Security in job matching people - locally qualified people - who, under the income support system, will probably be able to do a lot of the jobs that are now done by residents of under 5 years? How many talks have taken place and how many jobs have been identified that could be done by the local workforce?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

What is happening is that we are bringing together the skills development and the job opportunity work that goes on with Education and Social Security and Economic Development. Before, they used to be three silos - I think it is fair to say - between the three different departments. The Skills Executive work that we are doing - which we discussed only yesterday - is going to bring that together. I agree with the Deputy that there is still more work to be done to bring together employers seeking staff with those staff that are seeking employment, and those discussions are going to be brought forward by dismantling the remaining silos that exist between Social Security, Education and ourselves and putting together you are going to see some news in the next few weeks of how we intend to fortify our efforts.

6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I was delighted with the Minister's response. Delighted because the reconciliation of the Regulation of Undertakings numbers and the Social Security numbers is something I have been asking for for years. I am very delighted that he is looking into the issue. I would very dearly like to have a copy of the report that he referred to. If I do not have it, could the Minister please repeat what report that is that shows the reconciliation, please, and can I get a copy from him?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

If the Deputy 's email system is working, he had it. I think it was about 12.06 p.m. last Wednesday. It is called "The Labour Market Report".

6. Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the current position wit the Jersey Milk Marketing Board and milk producers following the publication of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel's review of the dairy industry:

Could the Chief Minister inform the Assembly of the current position and report any meaningful progress with the Jersey Milk Marketing Board, its commercial arm, the Jersey Dairy, and milk producers following the publication of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel review of the dairy industry (S.R.4/2007) presented on 25th January 2007?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

I am pleased to report that there has been significant progress since the dairy industry was reviewed by both Promar International and the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel. There has been an ongoing series of talks and negotiations between the Jersey Milk Marketing Board, the States and other parties who are working to help the dairy industry move forward. This has been facilitated by external mediation. The J.M.M.B. (Jersey Milk Marketing Board) have been working hard on many different areas to finalise their forward plan which involves elements such as the set-up of the new dairy; how the new co-operative is structured and run. There has been a cascade of progress on the elements needed to achieve a successful outcome. But to summarise some of the more recent points of progress, Classic Herd are now processing their own milk which has led to some internal competition and choice for the consumer. Jersey Dairy is now actively seeking to adjust milk intake to better match supply and demand for the new dairy and has engaged producers on this topic. It is also working on the contractual arrangements it will have with producers who supply it. The J.M.M.B. is also nearing completion on agreeing details of a lease for the new dairy at Trinity and drafts have been exchanged between the parties. Jersey Dairy is successfully achieving significantly higher prices for both butter and skim milk powder due to world price increases in dairy products, and this is favourably impacting on its financial performance. The dairy is actively pursuing the development of an export market for added value Jersey dairy products and is running trials in a major U.K. supermarket. While at the start of the year there seemed to be some potential for serious division in the dairy industry, it is clear that the parties are now actively talking to each other and I am confident that there is a consensus to work together to a common future which is looking very promising.

1. Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder, bearing in mind that Members were asked to debate this matter with some urgency, if the Chief Minister could give some indication of any timeframe that the excellent things that he has outlined there would fit into, and if there is a target indeed for this?

Senator F.H. Walker :

It is difficult to give a precise timeframe at this moment because it is, largely speaking, in the hands of the board of the J.M.M.B. and other producers. I do know that there is a shared wish to come up with an agreed structure and to reach agreement on the new dairy at the earliest possible time, but these are important and complex issues and they have to be got right and I applaud the very detailed work and the leadership that the board of the J.M.M.B. are now putting into this project.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder, Sir, if the Chief Minister could be more specific. Are there any major issues outstanding where agreement has not been reached, and if there are not, has a deadline been set for the actual move to the Howard Davis Dairy?

Senator F.H. Walker :

The one major issue yet to be resolved that I am aware of is that of the importation of semen where we have encountered legal problems, but I hope that those will be overcome. Other than that, I am not aware of any serious obstruction to progress, but at the same time - as I have said in response to Deputy Breckon - these things cannot be rushed and the board of the dairy are doing a thorough job in a proper timescale and I know they share my wish that it should all be completed and they should be able to reach agreement on the dairy as quickly as possible. But it is necessary for them to get we are looking at the entire future structure of the dairy industry in Jersey here and it is absolutely essential that we and they get it right.

7. Deputy S. Power ofSt. Brelade of the Minister for Housing regarding the impact of changes to (j) category accommodation on the housing market:

Despite the Social Housing Property Plan Sub-Panel's expression of concern with in Scrutiny Report 12 regarding the impact that changes to (j) category accommodation have had on the residential housing market, does the Minister still consider that such changes are having no effect on the prices being achieved?

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

I have never said that the impact of (j) employees on the housing market is nil. What I have always said is that the impact of (j)s on house prices should be kept in strict context. They continue to account for just 8 per cent of all purchasers with 92 per cent of properties being bought by local people with qualifications. It is the economic growth that we are experiencing in which (j)s do have an important role that is driving house price increases. Our task is to manage this which is why I have been requesting that the Planning Minister makes sure that appropriate housing land supply is forthcoming.

1. Deputy S. Power:

The Minister may be aware of a report in the Jersey Evening Post 2 weeks ago quoting a former senior and experienced member of the Housing Department who is now a mortgage consultant. This former officer stated that changes to (j) category accommodation and licensing had accelerated the ability to purchase (j) category accommodation and as a result has had a dramatic effect on local house prices. Would the Minister go so far as to discount the remarks of this officer?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, Sir, I did read that in the Jersey Evening Post and I felt like writing a letter to the Jersey Evening Post to say that it was absolute nonsense and untrue. We have the figures in the Population Department which are quite clear and categorical. I invite any Member to come and see them at any time with me. The issue is that I challenge this gentleman to bring forward evidence that he has that we certainly have not got in the Population Department. There has been anecdotal evidence, if you like - or rumours going around - for a long time that (j)s are causing this issue that he quotes. It is untrue.

2. The Deputy of St. John :

Would the Minister agree that one of the biggest drivers that is putting up house prices in the Island currently is the lack of supply and also the fact that the lack of supply of sheltered housing which is not enabling the market to move and causing a bit of a log-jam? Would the Minister agree with that?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, Sir. There is a very, very large shortage of properties right across the board at this present time. The Planning Minister and I are working very closely to try and achieve this and the Planning Minister has all kinds of legal and procedural difficulties in being able to come up very, very quickly with land. Hopefully that will be resolved very soon but the Planning Minister and I are determined to put more homes in the market place right across the board.

3. Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder if the Minister could tell the House if he is aware of the number of (j) cats. in the last 12 months' employment statistics that Senator Ozouf has just referred to - because my understanding is it was 150 - and if he could tell the House how many of those that were granted a (j) category would be given permission to rent or buy or indeed would be able to buy?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

That is correct. In fact, three per cent of (j)s make up the total workforce in Jersey and there is approximately 150 new (j)s that have come in; a majority of them, Sir, are with Health and Social Services, Education and Home Affairs. The issue is that a (j), whether he or she are on a short or permanent contract, are entitled to occupy property in this Island - (j) category property - and in cases, even short (j)s are buying property for the duration of their three or five-year contract. Reasons are, I suppose, an increasing valuation on property but it is not uncommon for short-term (j) s to buy over a three or five-year period and selling them out of the company on completion of their (j) category.

8. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the funding for children aged 3 and 4 years to access free education:

As the Minister was unable to secure funding via an amendment to the Annual Business Plan in order to extend the opportunities for children agedthree3 and four years to access free education, what steps, if any, will the Minister be taking to secure funding from other sources?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

We will continue to explore options for funding and nursery education for all and will be meeting with the Jersey Early Years Association shortly to further discuss the issue. However, funding of the magnitude required cannot be found from within existing resources without seriously impairing existing services. I will, of course, also be reflecting on comments made by States Members during the debate on nursery education and will look again at alternative options. The issue is being examined by the Education Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel and I will, of course, be taking their conclusions into serious consideration.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Will the Minister consider looking at partnerships, probably with the finance industry? There is probably quite an interest there and one remembers most States Members were circulated with a number of emails from people within finance. So, would he not consider making contact with industry and see whether any financing inducements can come that way?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I am prepared to look at all options but my concern is to provide nursery education for all as well as nursery education for certain sections of the community.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

What is the Minister's view towards the means testing of nursery provision?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I will look again at the means testing but in the many papers we have presented to the States there were serious arguments based on very long research showing that it had some very detrimental effects on the very poorest in our society. So, I would need considerable convincing given that evidence, but as it was raised in the debate I will be reconsidering it.

3. Senator S. Syvret:

Does the Minister now accept that it is not particularly responsible to come to the Assembly with a proposition seeking a great deal of additional spending without  indicating how the additional revenue should be raised, given that he was not indicating that it should be taken from another budget?

Senator M.E. Vibert : No, Sir.

4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Is the Minister concerned that his inability to deliver equitable funding for nursery care means that the Council of Ministers will be in breach of its agreement in the Strategic Plan to deliver this by the end of the current year?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

We will be increasing the provision by a new nursery class, whether it is at the end of this year or beginning of next year and, yes, unfortunately it looks like we will not be able to meet all the aspirations as highly as we would wish and, of course, that was a decision of the States.

5. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour :

Concerning the Minister's reply regarding means testing, does the Minister accept that he used the word "detrimental" but there is nothing more detrimental than continuing this present totally unfair system to parents?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I have been trying to convince the States for some time now of how inequitable and unfair this system is, but like I said, I will look again; but I do not believe that means testing will get rid of all the inequity and that is part of the problem.

6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I am sure the Minister is aware there are a considerable amount of mothers who would dearly love to get back to work but are unable to do so because it is simply uneconomic to do so. Does the Minister agree that there will be savings in other areas and this will not be a complete write-off?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I totally agree there will be savings in other areas; not just with some mothers being able to get back to work though we do have a very high percentage of working mothers. But the real savings will be in the long term for a better society for the future if we provide nursery education for all.

7. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade :

Does the Minister not concede that if the nursery care is purely for the purposes of getting people back to work then that really is not the purpose for which it was intended?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I thought I just made that clear in the answer I just gave, Sir. The primary purpose of extending nursery education for all is for the whole benefit of society, to give every child in the Island a better start in life. One of its ancillary parts is that it will allow some mothers, if they so wish, more freedom to return to work possibly on a part-time basis. But the raison d'être for nursery education - and it has been agreed by the States for over 20 years - is for the benefit it gives to young children for their future lives.

8. The Deputy of St. Martin :

The Minister said he was opposed to means testing because it might affect the poorer people in society. Will the Minister explain why then he went for means testing for old aged pensioners and not for nursery education?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I have never been for means testing for old aged pensioners.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I meant to say for T.V. licences, Sir. I am sorry.

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I came to this House first of all with a proposal that T.V. licences should be available to all over 75 year-olds. This House turned it down and suggested I came back with a system of means testing instead, and I did.

9. The Connétable of St. Helier :

The Minister, on a couple of occasions, has appeared to lay the blame for the failure of delivering equitable childcare and nursery provision on the States. Could the Minister remind us how long he has had this portfolio and whether he does not accept some responsibility himself for not having cracked this problem by the due date?

Senator M.E. Vibert :

I accept the responsibility that I have yet to convince the States that we should provide free nursery education for all by increasing the funding to do so, yes.

9. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding interim measures employed to ensure the Children's Service performed adequately: Would the Minister advise what interim measures, if any, he is employing to ensure the Children's Service is performing adequately in advance of any recommendations that may arise as a result of the present inquiry?

Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

My Assistant Minister will act as rapporteur for this question as he has special responsibility for Social Services.

Senator J.L. Perchard (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur): Clearly it would be wrong to anticipate and thereby potentially undermine the Andrew Williamson Inquiry which is now underway. It is expected that Mr. Williamson will report before the year-end, possibly - and if necessary - by means of an interim report. The House will be mindful that the previous Minister for Health and Social Services appointed Professor June Thoburn as Chairperson of the Jersey Child Protection Committee. Members may be aware that Professor Thoburn visited the Island last week to attend meetings with senior officers, senior social care professionals, politicians and others. I met Professor Thoburn on two occasions during her visit, once with the Minister for Health and Social Services and then with the Ministers for Home Affairs and Education, Sport and Culture. I remind Members that the three Ministries represent the corporate parent on the Children's Executive, all of whom fully endorse the appointment of Professor Thoburn. The previous Health and Social Services Minister also formally invited the Howard League for Penal Reform to undertake an examination of child and young person custody provision in Jersey and pass judgment on the Grand Prix system which once operated at Greenfields. The details of their visit have yet to be finalised, however, I can assure Members that all of us at Health and Social Services will co-operate fully with the representatives from the Howard League. Also, the Minister has appointed me as his Assistant Minister with special responsibility for Social Services which includes the important element of the social care and welfare of our vulnerable children. Since my appointment, I have met senior officers and senior social care professionals on a number of occasions. Having received answers to very clear questions, I am satisfied that all vulnerable children requiring a service from the States of Jersey are being supported appropriately. Therefore, in the interim period from my time of being appointed until after the publication of the Williamson Inquiry, I assure Members that the service will be robustly managed with all staff being supported and encouraged through what is a difficult, sensitive and challenging time.