States Meeting Transcript - 20/11/2007

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 20th NOVEMBER 2007

CONTENTS

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

1. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. TO THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING MRI SCANS: ..............................7
2. TO THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER REGARDING COMPOSTING COSTS: ..........................................................................................7
3. TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BY DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING COST OF DOCTORS' VISITS AND PRESCRIPTIONS:......8
4. TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY P.V.F. LE

CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE STRATEGIC RESERVE:..............9

2. Oral Questions............................................................................9

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the structures and processes in place to ensure that the Minister and the Planning Department operated at arm's length from developers promoting the development of sites on the Waterfront:..................................................9 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):............................9

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ...............................................................9
2. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................10
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................10
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................10
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................10

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security regarding the Ministers' Guide to Income Support circulated to members on 25th September 2007: ..11 Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security): ......................................11

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................11
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................11
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................11
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................12
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................12
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................12

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................12

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Economic Development regarding what measures, if any, were being taken by Economic Development to improve the employment prospects of the unemployed in Jersey:....................................13 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................13

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade : ..................................................13

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................14
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................14
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................14

4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the number of staff required to support the Director to the Civil Aviation Authority and the annual overall staffing and administration costs:...............................................15 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................15

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................15
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................16
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................16

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Health and Social Services as to whether any concerned parent had contacted him alleging gross professional misconduct by the Children's Service:..................................................16 Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.........................16 Senator J.L. Perchard (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):......16

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................16
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................17
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................17
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................18
5. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................18

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................18

6. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the potential relaxation of the Regulation and Undertakings Law to enable small local businesses to take on more staff:......................................................................19 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):............................19

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................19
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................20
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................20

7. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the tendering process for the stevedoring contract at the Port of St. Helier:.................20 Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................20

2.7.1 Deputy S. Power:.......................................................................21

8. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding arrangements for disabled parking at the Weighbridge when the area was redeveloped:21 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):...........................21

2.8.1 Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................21

9. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the progress in finding alternative composting sites and the potential investigation of kitchen waste recycling systems: ......................................21 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ................22

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................22
2. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................22
3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................22

10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding advertising for further expressions of interest in the development of the Jersey College for Girls site:

23

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ..........................23

11. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Economic Development regarding revisions to the Harbour and Light Dues (Jersey) Law 1947, as amended:..............................23 Deputy A.J.H. Maclean (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.......23

1. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................24

2. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................24
3. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................24

12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding succession planning for the post of Police Chief:...................................................24 Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):........................................24

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................24
2. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier : .......................................................25
3. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................26
4. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. St. Clement : ................................................26
5. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................26
6. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................26

13. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of The Chief Minister regarding the route by which representations to the person chairing the enquiry into child protection in Jersey could be made:...................................................................................26 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................27

2.13.1 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................27

14. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the progress made in commencing the Millennium Town Park project: ....................27 Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ................27

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................27
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................28
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................28
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................28
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................28

15. Deputy G.P. Southern of The Chief Minister regarding the 150 year leases to be granted on the new proposed Waterfront/Jardins de la Mer project:.............................28 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................28

1. Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour:............................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................29

16. Senator S. Syvret of the Chief Minister regarding the enquiry being undertaken by Mr Andrew Williamson:....................................................................29 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):...................................................29

1. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................30
2. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................30

17. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the recent police investigation into the activities of the Customs Service:................................30 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs - rapporteur):..........30

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................31
2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................31
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................31
4. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................32
5. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................32
6. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter : ......................................................32
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................32
8. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................33

3. Questions to Minister without Notice - The Minister for Education Sport and Culture: ...........................................................................................33

1. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................33 Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):........................33
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................33
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34

3.3.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34

4. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:...............................34
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
6. Connétable J.L.S. Gallichan of Trinity :.................................................35
7. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................35
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................36
10. Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: ................................................................36

4. Questions to Minister without Notice - The Minister for Planning and Environment: ...........................................................................................37

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................37 Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):...........................37
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................37
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37

4.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37

4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................38
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................38
6. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................38
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................38
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................39
9. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................39
10. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:...................................................39
11. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:...............................................40
12. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................40

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................40

5. Statement by the Chief Minister regarding a partnership agreement with Ille et Vilaine....................................................................................40

5.1 Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):.............................................40

5.1.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................41

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................41

6. Draft Income Tax (Amendment No. 29) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.156/2007)..............41

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ....................41

1. Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. Helier : ......................................................43
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
3. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................45 Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., The Attorney General:.............................................46 Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., The Attorney General:.............................................46
4. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................46 The Bailiff :...................................................................................47

2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................49 The Bailiff :...................................................................................49
3. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................49 The Bailiff :...................................................................................49
4. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................49 The Bailiff :...................................................................................50
5. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................50

The Bailiff :...................................................................................50

6. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................50 The Bailiff :...................................................................................50
7. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................50

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................51
2. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................51 The Bailiff :...................................................................................51

8. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................51

6.8.1 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan:....................................................................52 The Bailiff :...................................................................................52

9. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................52 The Bailiff :...................................................................................52
10. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................52 The Bailiff :...................................................................................52
11. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................52 The Bailiff :...................................................................................53
12. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................53

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................53
2. Deputy P.N. Troy ofSt.Brelade:....................................................54
3. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:..............................................................54 The Bailiff :...................................................................................54

7. Draft Income Tax (Deemed Dividends) (Jersey) Regulations (P.157/2007)............56

7.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources): ....................56 The Bailiff :...................................................................................56

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................57 The Bailiff :...................................................................................57

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................57 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................57

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................57

8. Criminal Justice Policy: audit of the need for a prosecution service (P.161/20007)...57

8.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................57

1. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................61
2. Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:....................................................63
3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................65
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................66
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................66
6. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................66
7. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................67
8. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ............................................68
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................68
10. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................69
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................69 The Attorney General:........................................................................70 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:....................................................................70
12. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................71
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................72
14. The Attorney General:...............................................................72

15. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................73 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................74

9. Criminal Justice Policy (P.118/20007)..................................................76

1. Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):..................................77 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................86
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................86

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................88
2. Senator W. Kinnard:....................................................................88
3. Deputy D.W. Mezbourian :..............................................................89
4. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................89 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................90

3. Senator M.E. Vibert :....................................................................91

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................92
2. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................92
3. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................94
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................94

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED.................................................................95 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................95

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................95

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. TO THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY S.S.P.A. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING MRI SCANS:

Would the Minister advise the Assembly -

1. the average costto the public of an MRI scan charged to the Health and Social Services Department compared to a scan charged to a private health scheme?
2. whether the MRI scanner paid for by public donations has become obsolete after some 36,000 scans, how many of the scanswerepaid for privately orbyprivatehealth insurance andwhat financial advantage did the public gain from such agreement?
3. will the Minister advise whether a new MRI scanner will be provided by the taxpayer and ifso, will it continue to be used by individuals who provide a scanning service for private healthcare or private health insurance patients, and if that is the case, what arrangements are being made to make these private concerns pay an appropriate fee for this service?

Answer

1. The current costto Health and Social Services of providing one MRI scan is approximately £176.00. Public patients are charged £21.00 for this service. Private patients are charged £650.00 per examination. This may be higher if more than one examination is requested and is in line with the fee structure negotiated with private health insurance companies.
2. Thescanner, paid for bypublic donations, was installed in1999.Ithasnow become obsolete and is no longer serviceable or sufficiently reliable for the work required by Health and Social Services. During the eight years of operation, 8,332 scans were undertaken privately. This is approximately 23% ofthetotal number of scans which has produced a profit of £1.6 m for reinvestment in the Department.
3. The new scanner has been secured in part exchange for the old one with the balance paid for bythetaxpayer.Itwillcontinueto provide a comprehensiveservice for all,with the patient / insurance companies paying a fee to the hospital and the radiologists for private scans.

The profit gained will continue to be reinvested to support of the Department's overall provision.

2. TO THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER REGARDING COMPOSTING COSTS:

Question

Further to his written answers on 23rd of May 2006 to a question raised by Senator Perchard regarding green waste composting costs, would the Minister update those answers for the comparable cost in 2006, and so far in 2007, and advise of any other costs incurred that were not evident in the original scheme?

Answer

To enable direct comparison between the years is difficult as the chart of accounts for recycling was re-developed in 2006 and 2007 to better reflect the many areas of recycling now covered by the Department. A new green waste shredder was purchased from a minor capital vote in 2007, the costs for this one off' purchase are shown separately.

The costs for to the green waste composting in 2005, 2006 and 2007 (end of October) are as follows -

**Direct comparison to the answer given on 23rd May 2006, requires the depreciation amount to be added on to give £594,825 as shown on the original answer.

The staff expenditure covers three manual workers which includes weekend reception facilities which are paid at overtime rates, plus management time and departmental overheads.

The plant  and equipment  costs now form part of supplies and  services, and are  inclusive of depreciation and maintenance.

The cost of the new Green Waste Shredder was £230,000 which was funded from a minor capital allocation.

The capital cost for the concrete slab and leachate collection system was £456,000. This work was completed in August 2003.

The income from the sale of compost in 2006 was £63,157. The majority of this income was for fully matured PAS100 soil improver. In 2007, there were process problems at the beginning of the year due to frequent breakdown of the old shredder. This resulted in more compost being delivered to agricultural land and less being further processed to manufacture the high quality PAS 100 approved material that is sold in the garden centres.

3. TO THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY BY DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING COST OF DOCTORS' VISITS AND PRESCRIPTIONS: Question

Would  the  Minister  advise  the  Assembly  how  many  doctors'  visits  were  covered  by  Health Insurance  scheme  payments  by  the  Social  Security  Department  in  2006,  and  how  many prescriptions were similarly funded in that same period?

Answer

In 2006 there were approximately 401,502 GP visits covered by the Health Insurance scheme. The number of prescriptions for 2006 was 1,419,790.

4. TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURYAND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE STRATEGIC RESERVE:

Question

Would the Minister advise members of the current value of the Strategic Reserve, given that it was valued at £391.8 million in June 2003?

Answer

The Strategic Reserve was valued at £516,043,000 as at 30th September 2007.

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the structures and processes in place to ensure that the Minister and the Planning Department operated at arm's length from developers promoting the development of sites on the Waterfront:

What structures and processes are in place to ensure that the Minister and the Planning Department operate at arm's length from developers promoting the development of sites on the waterfront?

Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

I can assure the House that we are keeping a constant watch on the process to ensure that appropriate controls are in place at all times to be certain that the developers do not inappropriately influence the planning process. The master plan needs first to be debated by the States. If any planning application does not conform with the strict terms of the master plan, the application will be rejected. This includes maintaining the quality of design, quality of construction and environmental credentials. It is important to stress that the quantum of development and the mix of uses has been set by the Planning Department in association with other States' departments and the developers have not influenced this area. The master plan will be supplemented by strict design codes. These are being developed by the department in consultation with my newly-formed Waterfront Design Group. This group is comprised of a number of well-known local history and architectural experts. In addition to these measures, any application will be subject to a full public inquiry and extensive public consultation. I am determined to deliver a scheme of the highest architectural, environmental and construction standards of which Islanders can at long last be justly proud. The control measures will ensure that there will be no opportunity for anyone, including the developers, to dumb down the scheme.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister tell the House whether he meets in any respect, together or as an individual or with other Members - for example, of the Planning Department - with developers? Could he tell the House what is the general understanding when these meetings take place? Could he tell the House, Sir, how does he separate these meetings from the final decisions that are taken by his department about the waterfront?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

From my best recollection, the meetings that I have held with the developers, which have been with officers present, have always been about peripheral issues. For example, we had a meeting the other day where a number of politicians were present, a representative of the developer in relation to the Move On Café. I am particularly careful not to get involved in any areas where the developer could try and exert influence, particularly in relation to quantums or uses of development. I am particularly aware that as the final decision maker I have a responsibility in this area to ensure I am extremely cautious in any dealings with the developer.

2. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

Could the Minister confirm how many developers are involved?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

This gives me an opportunity to explain that I am not the deal maker with the developer; the deal making is done by the Waterfront Enterprise Board. I have never seen the deal or the contract that is being signed between the Waterfront Enterprise Board and the developer. There is, as I understand it, one developer. Everything that I know, Members know, because it is in the master plan document.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Minister therefore assure us that except for so-called peripheral issues, he never meets with developers, there are never any promises made or reached or whatever at these meetings, and that he, at all times, keeps an arm's-length relationship with these particular organisations?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

The number of meetings I have had with the developers of the waterfront are very small indeed. I am always extremely careful at such meetings. I certainly never give any undertakings in relation to what will or will not be approved. I accept that in my position as Minister, Members would naturally expect me to be cautious and I am.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Being that there is one developer and being that the Minister has now said that he is not responsible for the negotiations, there are questions about the size of the development for the new quarter and the bond, et cetera, and the spread of risk and also the opportunity for other developers to tender for this type of a development. Who should these questions be put to within the States of Jersey in the mind of the Minister, please?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

To reiterate, and I am glad to have the opportunity of reiterating, I have nothing whatsoever to do with the deal making. Any questions relating to the deal making should be addressed to the Waterfront Enterprise Board or the Chief Minister.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister confirm that because of his eminently sensible approach to produce a coherent plan there is a danger that the whole project could rely, as indeed the former questioner alluded to, on the presence of only one developer? Would he agree that planning may be driving towards that situation?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

No. The present position is from the planning perspective we are dealing with a master plan. A master plan will create a canvas. It is up to this Assembly to decide whether or not it believes that the master plan I have unveiled last week is something that they believe is in the interests of the Island and at this stage we are not dealing with a planning application.

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Social Security  regarding the Ministers' Guide to Income Support circulated to members on 25th September 2007: Given that the section 12.2 of the Minister's Guide to Income Support, circulated to Members on 25th September 2007, offers direct payments for G.P.s' (General Practitioners') costs and social housing rentals and states that the claimants can choose direct payments, would the Minister explain why the voluntary nature of this offer has been changed in letters sent to claimants on 6th November to: "We will have the power to provide direct payment to the Housing Department"?

Senator P.F. Routier (The Minister for Social Security):

The guide to income support quoted by the Deputy is clearly marked a draft document. It was issued to provide Members with a general overview of the income support system. The revised draft is due to be issued before Christmas. During the Scrutiny process, Deputy Martin's sub-panel raised concerns regarding direct payments and as a result of their comments, detailed legal advice was obtained on this issue. I can assure Members that the wording of the letter quoted by the Deputy fulfils the requirements of the law.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

In the same bundle of letters there is a form of rental payments for housing and it goes back to: "Because you are currently paying a reduced rental to housing, it is suggested your income support benefit is used to pay your rental." It is a totally mixed message. Is the Minister saying they do have the power, which is not our understanding of the legal? It should be each case -- obviously, Sir, if there are some difficulties, pay the rent direct, but the claimant should be offered the choice.

Senator P.F. Routier:

The law is written so that the determining officer has the final decision. If someone is not happy with that decision they have the ability to appeal to the independent tribunal. I have to say that I am a little concerned about this line of questioning because even in the last week or so we have sent out 2,000 letters to people and we have only had 2 requests for people to pay their rent themselves. Everybody else seems to be entirely satisfied with the approach we are taking.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Will the Minister release to Members the guidelines that are issued and are in place for determining the officers when making this decision? Will he guarantee to this House that in providing these guidelines he is not unfairly fettering the discriminatory powers of the determining officer?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I am not sure that Members want the 900 pages of guidelines that are required that the determining officers work to. I am certainly happy to provide it to the Scrutiny Panel for information. With regard to fettering the mechanism for the determining officers, in fact, we are advised that if we were to go any further than what the line the Deputy is suggesting that we would be fettering the determining officers. What we are doing is enabling -- the law requires the determining officer to have the final say. As I said previously, that decision can be appealed against via a tribunal.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I thank him for his offer to reveal the 900 pages to the Scrutiny Panel. Can I ask him when? Furthermore, is the Minister aware that under the Income Support Law, income support is regarded as single unified payment no matter how the components are made up and that to divert a fraction of that single unified payment, which is the right of the recipient to receive, in diverting some of that otherwise, that constitutes -- has he sought legal advice whether that in itself is illegal?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I can assure the Deputy that the mechanism we have in place with regard to paying third parties is within the law and we have obviously taken advice on that matter. I do not think I can add anything more to that.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Is it not a fact that it is again discretionary -- it is picking out tenants from the Housing Department? Is it not a fact through you, Sir, that it has already been agreed between the 2 departments, so it is much simpler to pay the rents direct from Social Security to Housing by BACS payment weekly? This is the understanding of Housing. Third parties, again, to G.P.'s, but not third-party rents to private landlords. People on private rents are being given their rent to pass on to their landlord. This is not offered. This is discretionary against States' tenants.

Senator P.F. Routier:

The arrangements we have with regard to paying third parties have to be workable. The mechanism that, I have to say, has been welcomed by most people who are on income support, that they -- in fact, I have had people contact me to say that they are pleased they can still have their rent paid directly by the Social Security Department, which is counter to what the Deputy is implying. With regard to there being a different mechanism for private landlords, unfortunately, because of the desperate nature of all the private landlords, we are unable to set up BACS payments directly at this present time. Certainly, if a tenant was wanting that, we could certainly look at that.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister still has not told me when I am going to receive the 900 pages or we are going to receive the 900 pages. Could he further say what he expects as the results of his guidelines to the determining officers will be that the overall percentage of payments direct to the housing authorities?

Senator P.F. Routier:

With regard to access to the 900 pages, when they are completed we will obviously get them to the Deputy . He does not seem satisfied with that; I cannot do it any sooner. The second part of the question, I am sorry I -- because of the Deputy 's shrugging of shoulders and faces, I lost track of the question. [Laughter]

Deputy G.P. Southern :

What a sensitive soul the Minister is. The question was what percentage overall of payments does he expect to be made direct to the housing authorities?

Senator P.F. Routier:

As I said in the answer to the previous question, of the 2,000 letters we sent out last week, 2 have requested not to have their rents paid directly. I am sure the Deputy is a better mathematician than I am; he can work out what that percentage is.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

With something like 100 per cent payment direct to the housing authority, is that not de facto a limitation of the determining officers' discriminatory powers? An unfair fettering of his discrimination?

Senator P.F. Routier: No.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I think the Minister has totally misunderstood. I am talking about choice and it depends on which letter the claimant has read to suggest why they have not chosen to not pay their rent direct. Does this not take a responsibility out of people's hands and go directly against the new social strategy for Jersey and income support where the Minister wants people to work, stand on their own 2 feet and manage their money? This is directly taking responsibility for their rent out of their hands and only because it suits the 2 Ministers concerned, not the clients involved, Sir.

Senator P.F. Routier:

The whole purpose of enabling people to have their rent paid directly to their landlord is to help the landlord. [Laughter] Sorry, I do apologise. To help both. I mean, there is no getting away from that. It helps both the tenants and the landlord. Certainly, what the determining officer, the way he makes the decision, it is in the best interest of the claimant. That is if it is felt in the best interest of the claimant, that is how he makes his decision.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Economic Development regarding what measures, if any, were being taken by Economic Development to improve the employment prospects of the unemployed in Jersey:

May I ask the Minister what measures, if any, are being taken by Economic Development to improve the employment prospects of the unemployed in Jersey?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I have published a number of strategies to help the employment opportunities for local people. Firstly, the Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme, which provides structured employment opportunities and supports the employer's costs of recruiting and employing trainees. Over 150 local young people are employed on the scheme. Secondly, the Jersey Undergraduate Scheme in 2007, providing 97 local undergraduates with jobs through their university summer periods. Thirdly, the building of a skills' centre at La Moye Prison to provide enhanced training facilities for inmates to help them in secure employment following their release. Fourthly, the funding and delivery of the Jersey Cadet Nursing Scheme, with Health and Social Services, a 2-year training scheme. There are currently 15 cadet nurses enrolled on the scheme. We recognise that we need to do more. That means that we are working now in partnership with Education, Sport and Culture and Social Security to the development of a Skills Executive with the purpose of achieving a better alignment between the skills needs of businesses and the requirement of businesses in Jersey. Once formed, this employer-led body - the details will be announced next week - will bring together the resources of the 3 departments with 3 key objectives: demand capture, careers information and advice, and the further and higher education training provision.

1. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade :

Given that these are all programmes designed for the young and given that Highlands does not provide any retraining for adults sort of 30-plus wishing to re-skill or change their skills, would the Minister describe the efforts he is making in this area and how he will be working with Education, Sport and Culture to provide for this retraining?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am not sure that it is entirely true to say that Highlands only provides opportunities for the young. I think Highlands provides opportunities for training and retraining at whatever stage of life people find themselves. The fact is the Deputy makes an important point and the importance is that we are going to be joining together the initiatives for skills and employment opportunities between the 3 departments of Social Security; Education, Sport and Culture; and Economic Development. That is why we are announcing the formation of the Skills Executive to do exactly what she says. The future prosperity of Jersey depends upon a highly skilled workforce, a mobile workforce and job opportunities for all.

Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Will the Minister confirm that he will give his attention to this very much neglected and totally overlooked area?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I have said in this Assembly, not for the first time, that I regard the skills issue as being the number one issue for Economic Development and that is why I will be chairing the Skills Executive with my colleagues of the Minister for Social Security and Education. Skills are top of the Economic Development agenda and it is vital that we raise the productivities and skills for everybody in Jersey as high as we can.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Faced with pressure from a sector to import skilled labour, will it be the Minister's policy, or that of the bigger group, to order that sector to put its training in order before it allows more skilled migrants to come in?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think the Deputy knows the answer to that question because he was good enough to come and spend some time with the Minister of Housing and Deputy Gorst and myself and receive a briefing on how we deal with Reg. of Uns. He will know and he will have heard that every application for non-qualified labour is rigorously researched by the department. Every time there is an application for more non-qualified labour, the first call is made to Highlands and other education providers to see whether or not there are local people that are available to work in that. We are difficult to convince on non-locally qualified labour and I hope the Deputy will have been convinced that we are doing enough. That is why we have seen job opportunities for local people rise by 1,200 in the last 12 months.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

Further to that, Sir, as the Minister is no doubt aware, there is future anti-discrimination legislation in the pipeline that would make it illegal, punishable by a fine of up to £10,000, to discriminate against anybody on the grounds of race or ethnic origin, which, on the face of it, is very good news. How does the Minister reconcile that with the fact that since the beginning of time Jersey businesses have always been encouraged to take on local applicants?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I see no conflict. The fact is we do discriminate to some extent between resident people and non- resident people. That has nothing to do with their gender, their race, their sexual orientation or anything at all. The fact is we do discriminate and we are allowed to discriminate between those people who are here. My job is to ensure that there are opportunities and good opportunities for local people. Only when we are convinced that all of the local applicants are found in work then we will allow non-qualified. I see no conflict between the general issues of discrimination and the policies that we must ensure to secure the Island.

4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

While I am delighted with the answers that have been given this morning, I would like to pick up on a point that was made by Deputy Ferguson in relation to re-skilling and ask the Minister if he would undertake to look into public/private partnership initiatives for re-skilling adult people who wish to re-skill, such as is being done at the moment in Enfield in the United Kingdom with the Skills Club. Will the Minister undertake to look into that and, if necessary, contact me for those details?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I have said that we are doing a lot, but we need to do more. That is why we have decided to create, the Council of Ministers endorsed last week, the Skills Executive. That will be a triumph of its Ministers with responsibility for skills, but underneath that it will be employer-led with an independent chairman Skills Executive to do the things that I have said. So, yes, there are good examples of where local authorities and other countries have put in place re-skilling opportunities for people later on in life and that is what we will be focusing on. Members will be hearing a lot more about that in the coming days.

4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the number of staff required to support the Director to the Civil Aviation Authority and the annual overall staffing and administration costs:

Following the appointment of a liaison director to the Civil Aviation Authority, will the Minister advise Members of the number of staff that will be required to support the director and the annual overall staffing and administration costs?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

An existing States' employee previously employed at Jersey Airport has been transferred to a new post of Director of Civil Aviation in a designate capacity. Legislation is required to separate out the safety regulatory functions of the airport director's post, which will then become the responsibility of the Director of Civil Aviation, or D.C.A. The D.C.A. will remain in a designate capacity until the legislation is enacted. The current staffing level is one person. During the coming months and until the legislation is in place, work is continuing to refine the precise requirements of the safety regulator and the resources that will be required to deliver the required separation of the safety regulator, D.C.A., from the service provider, Jersey Airport.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I had a little difficulty hearing, but I asked the question how many members and how much would the costs be? I did not hear the answer. Maybe the answer was given? I did not hear it. If it was given, could I hear it again, please?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I did not realise my voice was so quiet. One person, Sir.

The Deputy of St. Martin : The costs, please?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I did explain that there is work going on over the coming months as the law is being developed to work out exactly what the requirements will be in terms of separating the regulatory functions from the service provider functions at Jersey Airport.

1. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could I ask the Minister what would the consequences be for the Island if indeed this appointment is not made?

Senator W. Kinnard:

The United Kingdom was audited by the Civil Aviation organisation in the year 2000 for its adherence to internationally agreed safety standards. Although, Sir, there is nothing to suggest or imply that there is any currently unsafe practice at Jersey Airport, the fact of the matter is that the U.K. was found wanting in terms of its overseas territories, which of course includes Jersey. It was found wanting in the sense that it did not have the separations, Sir, between service provider and regulator. The overseas territories have subsequently established D.C.A.s. The next audit of the U.K. is programmed for early 2009, Sir. The Isle of Man has appointed already a D.C.A. more than 12 months ago and Guernsey has advertised the vacancy a few months ago, so we are falling into line with the other overseas territories, Sir.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wanted to say, could the Minister tell us at what cost it is to other jurisdictions like the Isle of Man and Guernsey for the whole function to be established?   What costs are they telling  her are entailed?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I do not have that information before me. This is something that I would have to go into discussions in with Economic Development to provide the further information and I am happy to do so.

3. Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

There was talk of combining the 2 areas, Jersey and Guernsey, together and having one officer. What happened to that?

Senator W. Kinnard:

I believe the Chief Minister may have answered that last week. I think there was an attempt to do so but it failed.

5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Health and Social Services as to  whether  any  concerned parent  had  contacted  him  alleging gross  professional misconduct by the Children's Service:

Would the Minister advise whether any concerned parent has contacted him alleging gross professional misconduct by the Children's Service, and if so, would he outline how he intends protecting the children involved during the period until Mr. Williamson's work is completed?

Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

Senator Perchard has delegated responsibility for this area and I wish for him to act as rapporteur.

Senator J.L. Perchard (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):

Over the last weekend I was, for the first time, contacted by a concerned parent alleging gross professional misconduct by the Children's Service. The Deputy 's question, however, appears to imply that either the Minister for Health and Social Services or myself are aware of allegations of gross misconduct against the Children's Service staff that such special measures are in some way required to protect the children involved. I can confirm that I am not aware of any such allegations. If the Deputy , however, is aware of allegations to the contrary, I urge him to make contact with the Public Protection Unit of the States of Jersey Police immediately, furnishing any evidence so that allegations can be properly investigated and that the children involved can be properly protected. However, if the Deputy is referring to unsubstantiated allegations by a disgruntled parent who does not wish the Children's Service to carry out its duties in the way the law requires, then I urge him to encourage those parents to use the appropriate legal channels available to them. This is very important. I wish to assure this Assembly that any case against a member of staff where evidence is produced of gross professional misconduct, such that the children involved need to be protected, will be rigorously pursued by myself according to the appropriate States' procedures.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I take it from the Assistant Minister's answer that he is going to do nothing. It is a pity, Sir, that the Assistant Minister has been given the job of answering the question because my question following the supplementary is to the Minister himself. What I want to know, Sir, is why it is that the Minister has failed to respond to a parent with grave concerns about his family? I have a document here dated 7th November, Sir, where he says: "It is now 6 weeks since I verbally asked for a meeting. It is now 4 weeks since I requested a meeting in writing. Has it been arranged? What date? What time?" That letter was written a couple of weeks ago. Why has there been a delay, Sir? Considering the fact that that letter contained information from a lawyer stating that the Children's Service showed a gross level of bias and none of the tactic employed by them would stand up to public scrutiny. What is going on, Sir?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

It would be inappropriate to discuss the details of a specific case other than I am aware of the case and the Deputy is ill informed. The case is subject to a live police and Children's Service investigation and therefore I will say no more. Since my appointment I have met with senior officers of the department and senior social care professionals many, many times. In fact, I have spent much of my time with them. I am a frequent visitor to our residential homes. I am completely satisfied that the children in our care are being appropriately managed and are safely managed. I assure Members that the service will continue to be robustly managed with all staff being supported and encouraged through what is a very difficult and sensitive time for us all.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

May we take some of the personal emotion out of this issue and look at the actual state of procedures themselves. In his question to the Minister, the Assistant Minister's responsibility -- the questioner put the point that he wanted to know how the Minister intended protecting the children involved. I did not hear anything of that in the answer that was given; I heard answers to the effect that States' procedures would be followed and staff would be supported. What I would like to ask is, because it has been unclear to me, given that there is evidently a particular report to that that is in the affirmative, what procedures are in place or taking place under the States' procedures to protect that child or those children? What procedures are in place to protect the children? That is part of the question.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

This is completely inappropriate and I am surprised that you are encouraging the Assembly to go down this channel. I refuse to discuss the details of the case other than to assure the Deputy and the House that the children involved - as a subject of the question just put by Deputy Baudains - are perfectly safe.

The Bailiff :

In fairness to Deputy Le Claire, the question he was putting, as I understood it, is what were the procedures? What were the States' procedures?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

That is exactly what I did, Sir. I did avoid the personal issue when I put it to the Assistant Minister. I thank you, Sir, for that intervention. What are the States' procedures; not what are the particulars.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

The children are subject to an inquiry by the Children's Service and they are not in the care of the Children's Service but are being monitored by the Children's Service.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Given the sensitivity around the Children's Service at the moment, and I have every sympathy for them, can we have an assurance that both the Minister and the Assistant Minister have arrangements whereby they are to be kept up to speed and informed of any allegation as it may be made to the contrary to the actions about the Children's Service?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Absolutely, Sir. As a result of the sensitivities that are surrounding the Children's Service at the moment, I am very much hands on.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Assistant Minister assure us that the recent report compiled by the Chief Officer, in the very best of faith, which exonerated the staff and indeed quite rightly in some respects praised them, can he assure us that he and the Minister have checked this report and that this report fully complies with the conditions one would expect from a rigorous, independent and objective report?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

The report that Deputy Le Hérissier makes reference to is a report on historical practices within the department. Mr. Andrew Williamson is conducting a review of services historically. I am perfectly satisfied that the services being provided to date by the Children's Services are some of the best possible services that we could provide.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Sorry, Sir, point not answered. Can the Assistant Minister reassure the House if that report was produced on the basis of the conditions  he would see  it as being essential to a full rigorous independent report?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I have spent little time looking at the historical aspects of the Service. I am hands-on looking at the current service. I will endeavour to study the document, but I am looking at the service today and ensuring that the children in their care are being appropriately looked after.

5. Senator S. Syvret:

Would the Assistant Minister agree with me that given that the Minister and himself are very new to this job, they may well not be au fait with all of the precise details of various procedures, quite understandably? Could the Assistant Minister give me and the Assembly an assurance that should any flaws and deficiencies in the existing policies and approaches be revealed that they will take swift action to change them?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Absolutely, Sir, and I think that I will be in a position to do that because I am aware of the practices that are taking place currently within the service.

6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I do not recall yet having had an answer as to why the Minister has not responded to a communication from residents that need his assistance. It is now 8 weeks since this particular person approached him, Sir, and I want to know why that is. Secondly, Sir, will the Assistant Minister agree to look into this case again, the one he thinks I refer to? Because it is clear from his comments that he is misinformed about the case. I am obviously not going to go into details here, Sir, but the comments he has made lead me to believe he has not got a clue what he is talking about.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I resent that absolutely. My position is that I will not discuss a live police and childcare case in this Chamber. However, I have spoken to both the parents - unlike Deputy Baudains - and the Children's Service regarding this case. Deputy Baudains has spoken to one of those 3 parties. If we are just suggesting who has knowledge of this case, I suggest it is not Deputy Baudains.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I presume, Sir, he refuses to answer my question?

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy ; the Minister has what?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

It is twice now, Sir, I have asked why it is that it takes 8 weeks for somebody to get a reply from the Minister and they still do not have one.

The Bailiff :

I thought the Minister had answered that.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I also thought I had answered that, Sir. The case that Deputy Baudains is representing is a live police and childcare investigation. I have communicated with Deputy Baudains' clients by email, by telephone, and I will not discuss it in any further detail as it is the subject of a live police and child allegation.

6. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the potential relaxation of the Regulation and Undertakings Law to enable small local businesses to take on more staff:

When Zero/Ten is implemented, will the Minister consider relaxing the Regulation of Undertakings Law to enable small local businesses to take on more staff, and if not, why not?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

When deciding how many staff a business can employ, the Regulation of Undertakings Law considers the contribution of a business to the Island, including its financial contribution. It follows that if a locally-owned business is contributing more tax then they will be more favourably treated. In reality, locally-owned businesses employing locally qualified staff in the domestic economy generally gets a green light. The Regulation of Undertakings Law is already applied with the objective of supporting small businesses and the implementation of Zero/Ten for decisions continues to be something that we are considering on an ongoing basis.

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I thank the Minister for his reply, Sir. That is excellent news. I am sure the Minister is aware that since the downturn in tourism, with high rates and inflation, small local businesses are suffering badly. With G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax), some are hanging by a thread and they need to expand slightly in order to survive. I am sure the Minister is aware of the perception that local businesses are of the opinion that the finance industry can have as many people as they like while their business are being stifled. I am glad the Minister assures us that that may relax in the future. Would the Minister not agree with that?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Minister does not agree emphatically at all. High rates of inflation? This Assembly is learning of inflation rates at a historically low level because of the policies that we have been putting in place. I am acutely aware of the dilemma of businesses and particularly with red tape, and I would suggest respectfully to the Deputy in relation to G.S.T. we need to continue to have a simple form of G.S.T. and not burden business with a complicated system which will require every single good put with a different form of tax code in future. That is the way of encouraging an enterprising small sector of the economy. We have 4,000 small businesses employing less than 5 people in the Island and my job is to ensure that we have the right environment for them to prosper, and many of them are.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Following his policies for economic growth will he assure the House that he will make it equally possible for small businesses and new start-up entrepreneurial businesses to take on non-locally qualified staff where they need to as well as the major operators in the banking sector?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

As I said in an answer a few moments ago, the job opportunities for local people expanded by 1,200 jobs in the year up to June 2006. Only a small proportion of them were in financial services. Many of the others were in the domestic economy. I look at small businesses every day and hear the calls of small businesses and their requirements to employ more staff. I am proud of the track record that we have in turning round Regulation of Undertakings applications and I am not aware of any small business that currently has a difficulty that we have not been alert to or we have not solved in relation to the job of recruitment. But, the Deputy will be the first to say that if we allow more non-locally qualified people in the Island that is going to breach our population limits.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Notwithstanding that answer, does the Minister accept that according to the O.X.E.R.A. (Oxford Economic Research Associates) report of 2002 growing the finance sector was going to reduce the low-skill, low-pay sector; tourism and agriculture in particular? What is he going to do about this?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am confused by the Deputy 's position. Financial services has one of the lowest percentages of non-qualified labour of all of our industries. The industries which he seeks to protect, and I care about too in terms of tourism and agriculture, have one of the highest levels of non-qualified, so he cannot have it both ways. So, the reality is that I want to support all sectors of the economy and I would remind him of the track record on tourism. Tourism bed-nights up 2 per cent this year, passenger arrivals up by 4 per cent. That is growth in the tourism industry and I would hope that he would be applauding it.

The Bailiff :

Deputy Ferguson has withdrawn her question number 7 and we come to a question by Deputy Power of the Minister for Economic Development.

7. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the tendering process for the stevedoring contract at the Port of St. Helier :

Would the Minister advise the Assembly how many companies tendered for the stevedoring contract for the Port of St. Helier; if any of those companies had an existing commercial presence in the port; whether a contract has now been issued and if so to which company?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

I will be asking, if I may, my Assistant Minister to answer questions 8 and 13 as he has responsibility for them.

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development -

rapporteur):

The stevedore contract has not been awarded and is currently the subject of ongoing negotiation. As such the information requested by the Deputy is currently of a commercially sensitive nature, which I am sure that Members will appreciate. However, once negotiations are complete and the contract is awarded all the information requested will be published.

2.7.1 Deputy S. Power:

I wonder could I ask the Assistant Minister to clarify for the Assembly how much longer he thinks this process will take and can he give an indication as to how long it has taken?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

It is very difficult, Sir, to be absolutely precise with the time. We are hoping that within the next couple of weeks we will have a resolution to this and certainly by the end of the year. What I can say to the Deputy is that the process has taken far too long as far as I am concerned and indeed I have a great deal of sympathy for the incumbent's employees who have had to suffer with the uncertainty over an extended period. So, we are very keen to move for a quick resolution to this matter.

8. Deputy S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding arrangements for disabled parking at the Weighbridge when the area was redeveloped: Given that there is currently only one disabled parking space near the Jersey Museum would the Minister advise Members what the arrangements for disabled parking will be at the Weighbridge when the area is redeveloped and how many spaces will be provided?

Senator F.E. Cohen (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

As stated by the Deputy currently there is only one disabled car parking space available in Caledonia Place. The drawings for the new Weighbridge Square do not as yet show the location of replacement disabled parking. However, in conjunction with the Waterfront Enterprise Board and the Minister for Transport and Technical Services we are currently looking at proposals to incorporate 2 disabled spaces in Weighbridge Place. I hope the Deputy will accept an invitation to join these discussions to ensure that disabled parking facilities are appropriate.

2.8.1 Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

I thank the Minister. However, there is currently a proposal to increase the size of pavements at the top of Don Street beyond Beresford Street and this proposal will extinguish the current disabled parking there. Will the Minister review the location and availability of disabled spaces in town to ensure that the number is not unduly reduced?

Senator F.E. Cohen:

I think the supplementary question is more for the Minister for Transport and Technical Services. I for my part will do whatever I can to review disabled car parking spaces and I extend again the invitation to the Deputy to assist me in this process.

The Bailiff :

I have notice that Deputy Martin has withdrawn question number 10, so we come to question 11 from Deputy Duhamel of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

9. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the progress in finding alternative composting sites and the potential investigation of kitchen waste recycling systems:

Would the Minister advise the Assembly of the progress, if any, in finding alternative composting sites and will he also undertake to investigate kitchen waste recycling systems such as those being established in the U.K. and to report his findings to the Assembly in the New Year?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

I am pleased to confirm that the site selection process for a suitable site for replacing the current windrow composting facility at La Collette has been completed, subject only to a confirmation of the validity of the exercise to be undertaken by officers in the Planning and Environment and Public Health Departments this week. The outcomes of the exercises are as follows: of the 18 private sites and 11 state-owned sites evaluated, 11 sites were passed for consideration for more detailed assessment. In relation to the compost treatment facility or facilities required the evaluation process identified that the current industrial location at La Collette was, by a considerable distance, the most suitable location for the proposed replacement enclosed composting facility. In addition the process identified that there were no suitable private sites which offered advantages in terms of developing multiple locations for carrying out composting. With regards, Sir, to the Deputy 's question about kitchen waste recycling systems I do not believe that further work is required on this matter as it has been thoroughly reviewed both by my department as well as a working party set up to review composting in 2006 chaired by Deputy Le Claire.

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Can the Minister confirm that his department, in looking at alternative systems, agreed with the consultants in that the alternative kitchen waste recycling systems were not looked at in detail because they did not form a complete solution to the Island's waste management?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The Deputy is well aware of the problems with kitchen waste composting and it is simply down to the fact that the residue  is a compost composed primarily of kitchen waste and regrettably a comprehensive letter detailing the issues of disposal of kitchen waste compost in the Island was missed out of the report submitted to this House by Deputy Le Claire and himself. But the straightforward issue, as has been debated by the House in the Solid Waste Strategy, is that there are real problems with supermarket protocols in respect of using agricultural land for disposal of certain composts.

2. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Will the Minister in that case forward to the Environment Scrutiny Panel these pieces of evidence which he has told the House would suggest that there are difficulties with supermarket protocols? Because the evidence that the Scrutiny Panel has otherwise is to the alternative.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The evidence I have is exactly the same letter as was sent to the review panel looking into composting of which the Deputy was a Member. I am very surprised that he does not have a copy of it but I am willing to give him a copy of mine if I still retain it.

3. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Will the Minister confirm that kitchen waste recycling represents at present a significant proportion of the materials that are attempted to be burnt at the current incinerator facility of the order of 25 per cent and material is generally wet?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

Kitchen waste does constitute a significant part of our waste disposal problem. It is what Members might regard more colloquially as black bag waste. The issues are obvious. It is mixed waste, it can be tins, it can be plastic, almost all of it contaminated one way or another by food. That makes problems difficult which is why the Transport and Technical Services Department, through the waste strategy, is seeking I think the best way forward in terms of recycling which will be run out progressively through the parishes. This is to enlist the aid of local people to take certain elements out of that waste stream, most notably glass, certain numbers of plastic and tin cans for example, where we do ask people to please clean them before they are collected separately. That is the way forward for recycling. It is to keep things clean and separated as from the start of the disposal system.

Deputy P.V.C. Le Claire:

Sir, may I ask one question? I did not realise it was going to be the final supplementary.

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy , no. That question has now been closed. We come to the next question, which is Deputy Duhamel of the Minister for Treasury and Resources.

10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding advertising for further expressions of interest in the development of the JerseyCollege for Girls site:

Has the Minister advertised for further expressions of interest in the development of Jersey College for Girls' site and if so on what date? If the Minister has not yet advertised will he inform the Assembly of the date he intends to do so and the reasons for delay?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I am happy to update Members on this subject. Four reputable companies with appropriate international commercial property marketing experience, 2 local ones, were invited to put forward a proposal for the marketing and sale by tender of the former Jersey College for Girls' premises. From those I selected the local firm of C.B. Richard Ellis to proceed with the preparation of advertising material for both local and U.K. circulation. I am anxious to resolve this matter as soon as possible and that company is also ready to proceed and is currently awaiting my instructions to go ahead with advertising and marketing and tendering. The reason for my holding back is I have been put on notice of a potential claim by Grange Developments Limited and Axis Mason Limited for a substantial sum of damages based on alleged infringement of copyrights in the development plans and alleged misuse of confidential financial information relating to the proposed development. If such an action is brought and if it is successful the damages and legal costs will almost inevitably wipe out any profit from the development of the site and might even leave the States out of pocket. In the circumstances it would be highly imprudent to proceed with the invitation to tender until I can be confident the issue of the potential claim has been resolved. Sir, I do not wish to say anything further at this stage as to do so might prejudice the position of the States in respect of that potential claim.

11. Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Economic Development regarding revisions to the Harbour and Light Dues (Jersey) Law 1947, as amended:

Does the Minister consider that the Harbour  and Light  Dues (Jersey)  Law 1947 as amended contravenes fair trade and competition and if so will he advise Members whether he  intends revising the law in order to cease bringing price increases in the form of amendments?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):

No, Sir, the Harbour and Light Dues Law does not contravene fair trade and competition. With regard to revising the Law there are no plans to do so as the intention is to repeal it. A replacement law is planned which would end the annual States debate on harbour charges. The intention under this new law would be to set tariffs after due consultation by Order, as has been done for a number of years at the airport. This would reduce the political management of harbour charges and allow the port to operate in a more sensible and appropriate commercial manner.

1. Deputy S. Power:

If I might be allowed to ask a supplementary. The Assistant Minister will be aware that this is the 32nd amendment to the tariff of Harbour and Light Dues (Jersey) Law 1947. The Minister will also be aware that the States approved P.129 in 2002. This directed the then Harbours and Airport Committee to bring forward a draft harbour charges law that would repeal and replace the existing law. Can the Assistant Minister explain to the Assembly why this has not happened?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

This is a law that we are looking to work on at the moment. It is in draft form and it is intended by 2008, during the course of next year, that the new draft law with regard to this matter, the Harbour and Light Dues, will in fact be brought before this Assembly.

2. Deputy S. Power:

Is the Assistant Minister aware that the current law is defective and is open to challenge? Is he also aware that trade between the Island and Members of the E.U. (European Union) can challenge this law and it is in this respect that the absolute requirement of the law is to pay a due on all goods is what the issue is? Does the Minister not agree with this?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

The Deputy I think is referring to, in particular, freight charges which for some years have been excluded from the annual Harbour and Light Dues Tariff Amendments. This was brought to the attention of the Assembly and the department by the Attorney General who advised that automatic increase in such charges was likely to be in contravention of E.U. law. For that matter and that matter alone, Sir, these matters have been dealt with outside of the Harbour and Light Dues Law Amendments each year. They have been dealt with by the Harbour Department in direct consultation with port users.

3. Deputy S. Power:

Can the Assistant Minister confirm whether the commercial port users have voiced their opposition to changing the system and that they would prefer to keep the existing charges based on freight tonnage? Can the Minister confirm whether that is a reason why this law has not been changed?

Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:

My understanding is that port users do like the tonnage arrangements and are opposed to a change, but this in no way has any reflection as to why it has not been changed and, in fact, a draft law is at this moment being prepared. We hope to bring it to this Assembly during the course of 2008 to address this issue.

12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding succession planning for the post of Police Chief:

Would the Minister advise whether the stated major objective of extending the Police Chief's contract, namely to enable the development of a senior succession plan, will be achieved before the current post holder's departure?

Senator W. Kinnard (The Minister for Home Affairs):

Yes, Sir, there is no reason to believe that the succession arrangements approved by the States Employment Board will not be achieved before the current chief retires in 2010.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Thank you. Would the Minister confirm that part of this policy of course is to enable suitably qualified local people to move into the post, and given that the chief has now been many years in position and has had that extended to further this particular objective, would she confirm that it is very likely that a local person will, following his departure, succeed him?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Yes, we certainly hope that will be the case and we are anticipating that at least 2 candidates will be in a position to apply for the position of the Deputy Chief Officer.

2. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

To continue on from that question, the Minister finally gave me eventually a succession planning for 2 local candidates in the preliminary stages for the senior command course, which was Bramshill, or this succession planning and they were also able to go for qualifications for the supported degree courses. But I understand, and this is what I would seek clarification, that before anybody can take up a Chief Officer's post in Jersey they have to serve for 5 years on the U.K. mainland at an A.C.P.O. (Association of Chief Police Officers) rank which would then in effect make it virtually impossible for a local candidate, unless they wished to spend 5 years in the U.K., from becoming a candidate for local Chief Officer of Police. Can the Minister comment on this or confirm this please?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Can I explain? I meant to go on to say, and then there will be an opportunity to potentially apply for the role of Chief Officer. If I can explain to Members, Sir, there are 2 potential options that were open to Home Affairs and the States. The problem is that the 3 most senior ranking officers of the States of Jersey Police are all due to leave the force within a period of 22 months. The Superintendent has already left in August 2007 and the Deputy Chief is due to leave in August 2008. Therefore, Sir, as I say, there are 2 options. One option was to advertise for a Chief Officer to succeed the current Chief Officer at the end of his original term, but the problem with that, Sir, would have meant that it would have been a candidate most certainly from outside the Island and it would have meant also then that quite quickly the post would shortly afterwards be advertised for Deputy Chief Officer, and it would be unlikely that a local candidate at that point would be ready at that point in time. So, the preferred option 2 was to extend the contract of the present Chief Officer for a maximum period of 3 years and to advertise the post of the Deputy Chief and the advert itself, Sir, would stipulate the criteria required for the rank of the Chief Officer so that there would be a strong inference in the advert that the successful candidate would be well placed to accede to the rank of Chief Officer. The idea, Sir, is that would allow the encouragement of local candidates to develop themselves and be in a position, Sir, to take up career opportunities as time moves on. The recommendation of option 2, Sir, as the planned way forward was agreed with the States Employment Board and that is the way that we are proceeding. The answer to Deputy Fox in terms of his training, we do still send officers to Bramshill, Sir, and the recommendations as to the qualifications for a person applying to be a Chief Officer of Police are as set out originally in the Clothier Report and also agreed by the Home Affairs Committee at the time that it accepted those recommendations and therefore those became part of the requirements. Individual officers are trained --

Senator S. Syvret:

Sir, this is beginning to look like filibustering the question time period.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I am trying to answer, Sir.

The Bailiff :

You must be succinct, Minister. Have you come to a close?

Senator W. Kinnard:

Yes, Sir, except all I am trying to say is that we take every opportunity to train our local officers so that they will be in a position to compete for the top jobs.

3. Senator S. Syvret:

Would the Minister for Home Affairs agree with me that sometimes very senior posts such as Chief of Police, Deputy Chief of Police, are better filled by people from outside of the Island and would she agree with me that in fact this Chief Officer and his Deputy , Mr. Harper, unbeknownst to perhaps many members of the public have done stalwart work in law enforcement terms behind the scenes, often in very difficult, very taxing circumstances.

Senator W. Kinnard:

I am surprised by the comment but most gratified by it, and I would agree with him that the Police Chief and his Deputy have done some absolutely stalwart work on behalf of the community. It is the case, Sir, that in the U.K. in a local community a Chief Officer is not taken from within that local community but I think in an island such as ours we have to ensure that an individual is properly trained but they also have the opportunities open to them. But I do accept that there are circumstances when it might be appropriate for an outside officer to take the position.

4. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. St. Clement :

Notwithstanding the last question and the Minister's answer to it, I just wonder if she could clarify something for me. I am not sure if it is early in the morning, I am not really getting it, but I just want her to confirm that the situation is that she expects to have 2 local people that will be in a position on a level playing field to apply for the position of Deputy Chief who will then, when the current Chief's extended term of office comes to an end, will be able to apply on the level playing field and have every expectation to be considered in the rounds for that position.

Senator W. Kinnard: Yes, Sir.

5. Deputy J.B. Fox: