States Meeting Transcript - 08/12/2008

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

MONDAY, 8th DECEMBER 2008

ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER DESIGNATE .............................................3

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:...................................................................4

1. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:................................................6
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................6
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ...................................................7
4. Senator B.E. Shenton:....................................................................7
5. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ...........................................................7
6. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :............................................................8
7. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ....................................................8
8. Senator S. Syvret:........................................................................8
9. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:........................................................9
10. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier:......................................................9
11. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:................................................9
12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................10
13. Deputy T. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................10
14. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................11

15. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John : ........................................................11
16. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................11
17. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................11
18. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................12
19. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................12
20. The Dean of Jersey:....................................................................13
21. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:...................................................13
22. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................14
23. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................14
24. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier:.....................................................14
25. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence.........................................15
26. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................15

2. Senator A Breckon:......................................................................15

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................17
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................17
3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................18
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................19
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................20
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
7. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................21
8. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................21
9. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................22
10. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................22

11. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................23
12. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
13. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................24
14. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................24
15. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................24
16. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................25
17. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................25
18. Senator F.E. Cohen:....................................................................26
19. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................26

ADJOURNMENT.............................................................................27

Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.......................................................................27 Senator A. Breckon: ..........................................................................27

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................28

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER DESIGNATE

The Bailiff :

May I first of all in Members' names extend a warm welcome as customary to His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor. [Approbation] Secondly, may I extend an equally warm welcome to all the newly elected Members of the Assembly attending this meeting for the first time - even the newly elected Deputy of St. John returning to his seat. [Approbation] That welcome of course extends to the families and friends of all the new Members, particularly in the public gallery. Now, I have to announce first of all before we move to Public Business that the result of the Referendum on

Central European Time which Members may have almost forgotten about, was that of the electors registered to vote, 23,969 votes were cast. There were 23,794 valid votes, and 6,564 electors voted in favour of the question and 17,230 electors voted against. The question in the referendum was, of course, do you think that Jersey should adopt Central European Time? Now, I have to remind Members that the only business for the meeting this morning is the election of a Chief Minister designate. I will invite the Greffier now to read the nominations received pursuant to Standing Order116.

The Greffier of the States:

Two nominations were received for the post of Chief Minister by the deadline set out in Standing Order 115(1)(d). They were Senator Terence Augustine Le Sueur and Senator Alan Breckon. The nomination of Senator Le Sueur is made by Senator Frederick Ellyer Cohen, Senator Alan John Henry Maclean, Senator Sarah Craig Ferguson, the Connétable of St. Saviour, Deputy Jacqueline Ann Hilton of St. Helier, Deputy Sean Power of St. Brelade, the Connétable of Grouville , Deputy Ian Joseph Gorst of St. Clement and Deputy John Alexander Nicholas Le Fondré of St. Lawrence. The nomination of Senator Breckon is made by Deputy Judith Ann Martin of St. Helier , the Deputy of St. John, Deputy Tracey Anne Vallois of St. Saviour, Deputy Jeremy Martin Maçon of St. Saviour, Deputy Deborah De Sousa of St. Helier, the Deputy of St. Martin, Deputy Trevor Mark Pitman of St. Helier, Deputy Roy George Le Hérissier of St. Saviour and the Connétable of St. Helier. I can confirm that both candidates submitted a policy statement as required by Standing Orders, and I can further confirm that I have circulated details of the nominations and the statements to all Members as required.

Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier :

In the interests of openness and transparency, and in the interests of the people who put us in office, may I propose that the States suspend Standing Order 117(9)?

The Bailiff :

Deputy , your proposition is that the whole of Standing Order 117 paragraph 9 be suspended?

Deputy S. Pitman:

Sorry. What I meant to say is that the secret ballot is an open ballot.

The Bailiff :

I think the difficulty with this proposition, Deputy , and that is why I asked you what your proposition was, is that it is not open to the Assembly to amend Standing Orders, as it were on the hoof. You can certainly move that a Standing Order be suspended, and that was why I asked you which Standing Order you specifically wanted to be suspended.

Deputy S. Pitman:

Yes, I do want to suspend the Standing Order for a secret ballot.

The Bailiff :

The trouble is that if one suspends Standing Order 117 paragraph 9, there is no provision for a ballot at all. [Laughter] Sorry. We are talking about Standing Order 116, as a matter of fact; 117 is Ministers. But Standing Order 116(7) provides: "When the speeches and questions are concluded a secret ballot shall be held." Now, if that provision is suspended there is no provision for a ballot.

Deputy S. Pitman:

Apologies, Sir. Yes. It would be Standing Order 116: "When the speeches and questions are concluded a secret ballot shall be held." I propose that that be made open ballot.

The Bailiff :

Well, before I make a ruling, Deputy , I would just like to be quite clear how you think the Assembly can overcome the problem of holding a ballot if this paragraph is suspended?

Deputy S. Pitman:

Suspend the word "secret", Sir.

The Bailiff :

Well, I think, Deputy , you are quite right and that is the only way it could be done, but that would not be a suspension of the Standing Order. That would be an amendment of the Standing Order, as it were, on the hoof, and I am afraid that proposition is out of order. Now we return to Standing Order 116(3), and I shall ask the Greffier to reveal his toque and 2 names to Members before they are put in the hat and drawn out. I have drawn out the name of Senator Le Sueur . Senator Le Sueur will be the first candidate accordingly to speak, and I will now ask Senator Breckon to be good enough to withdraw from the Chamber, and Senator Breckon will be accompanied by an Officer of the Greffe to a distant place where he cannot hear, and he will be invited to return to the Chamber in due course.

The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey

On a point of information, may I just say I mean no disrespect to either candidate, but will only be here for a while because Members will be aware, sadly, that Alexander de Gruchy had his plane crash into the sea some days ago, and I am charged with presiding and preaching at his funeral. I hope, Sir, with your leave, that I may take the greetings and best wishes of this House to that service. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Dean, for that explanation, and I am sure the feelings of Members have been made clear. Now the first candidate will speak for 10 minutes. I inform Members that the Greffier will ring a bell after 9 minutes, and will then ring the bell for a second time at the end of the 10 minute period. Members will be aware that the speeches of the candidates are being recorded by television cameras, and at the conclusion of the speeches of the candidates I shall ask the cameras to stop filming. So, I now call upon Senator Le Sueur to address the Assembly.

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I would like to start by echoing your welcome to all the new Members to this first sitting. I remember  how immensely proud I felt on my first day, honoured to have the opportunity to represent the Island. The responsibility that the public have entrusted upon us is enormous, and although Members may have differing views, the one thing that unites us is our passion for Jersey; and more than that, a determination to make Jersey an even better place, with a greater emphasis on social integration and family values. While the next 3 years are likely to be challenging, I am confident that this House can and will reach a new consensus on how we can achieve that. One of the things that I am most proud to have achieved in my political life is long-term planning. At

Social Security, I planned to safeguard the future by a gradual increase in contributions before it was strictly necessary. That secured our pension scheme for years ahead, and today we have one of the best social security schemes in the world. As Minister for Treasury and Resources at a time when we had strong economic growth, I promoted the setting up of the Stabilisation Fund to cope with a possible future down-turn. Well, that down-turn may be on our doorstep, but with a healthy economy, one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world, balanced budgets and money safely tucked away in reserves, we are in a better position to deal with any challenges ahead, and that has not happened by accident. So, just as I have left a lasting legacy at Social Security and Treasury and Resources, I should like to make my mark as Chief Minister. The period ahead calls for experienced leadership. I believe that is what I offer Members in their important choice of Chief Minister. Calmness and long-term vision are not by themselves enough. The Chief Minister also needs to engage, listen, respond and lead, and although I am clear where my priorities lie, as Chief Minister I would continue to work with all Members in a consensual way for the good of the Island community. Although I provided a detailed vision summary, I will now go on to explain some of my policies. I recognise that there may be fewer job opportunities in the period ahead as a result of the global economic downturn, and I will do whatever is necessary to protect Islanders in such times. We are in the unique position of having money set aside to do so, and to do whatever is necessary. I will protect the job market to ensure that jobs continue to be filled by local people, qualified to do the work. The Regulation of Undertakings and Development Law may have to be applied on a shorter-term and more hands-on basis. If necessary, I am prepared to use the Stabilisation Fund to stimulate the economy by means such as bringing forward States property maintenance and reprioritising capital projects. I will also strengthen the resources and activities of the Skills Executive to ensure that Islanders are qualified to fill vacancies in existing and new areas. A successful economy supports the people of Jersey. We need to support and enhance all sectors of the industry, be it finance, tourism, agriculture, e-commerce, retail or whatever. Business is all about people and we rely on an increasingly skilled workforce. Over the last few years, much of

the additional money we have voted has rightly been directed into social areas - Health, Social Security, Education and Home Affairs. Despite this extra money, there are still pressures in areas such as child protection, respite care, prison and immigration. This is an opportunity for Ministers, Assistant Ministers, the Public Accounts Committee and Scrutiny Panels to all work together. There is a healthy debate about spending. On the one side there are those who say the States should save more; and on the other side there are those who say the States should spend more and provide more services. We are going to have to be smarter in the way in which we use our revenues, because while we need to balance our books, I am not one of those who believe that the only way to do that is by rushing out and raising more taxes. We have to decide as a community what services we really need within the means at our disposal. I say "means" rather than "money", because sometimes there are better solutions than simply throwing money at a problem. We have to think smart, but first we have to think. Home ownership should be a realistic goal for every Island family. Shared equity is just a start. But I would also use further reductions in stamp duty rates and look at other measures to make homes more affordable. The development of the new Island Plan will be one of the biggest projects for this Assembly to tackle. A new Plan will need to set out the demand for homes and at the same time, balance this against the need to protect our rural environment. Jersey has got a good infrastructure, but having brought the different streams together through Property Holdings, it has become clear that there are funding challenges. At present, the States owns a great deal of property, so that the maintenance budget is being spread too thinly. I see opportunities here to rationalise the States property portfolio. The next 3 years are also likely to be dominated by an important international agenda. The U.K. (United Kingdom), G- 20 (Group of Twenty Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors), O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development), E.U. (European Union) and the United States are all reviewing matters which could affect our future. This will be an important and demanding activity for the new Chief Minister, and here is one good example where I would propose to work closely with my Guernsey counterparts. Jersey has a proud tradition of honorary service, and I applaud the

work of many charities in giving generously of their time. I want to encourage all Islanders and the business community to find ways in which to play their part in creating an inclusive society. I want to create a strategic direction which all Members can take part in setting, and which a majority of Members can then sign up to. Once that strategic process and direction is agreed, I would look to an official Scrutiny process to make sure that it was properly delivered. As States Members, we have to build up public trust by engaging in more meaningful discussions with the public, so that we can better understand their concerns and better explain our intentions. That means that we all need to listen as well as talk. As Chief Minister, I would involve all of us, States Members and members of the public, in finding a common and an informed view - a view to which the majority of us could sign up. We need to remind ourselves of all that is good about Jersey. We also need to be honest with ourselves about how to improve our shortcomings. I want to make Jersey an even better place for all of us, an Island in which we can all take pride. I am proud that people often refer to me as a safe pair of hands. I believe that I have a proven track record. I have demonstrated foresight and vision over many years in the States, and I hope that Members will consider me to be the best candidate for Chief Minister. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Thank you, Senator. Well, I now ask the television cameras to cease filming, please, and the period of questioning for Members will now open. The Constable of St. Helier .

1. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

In the penultimate paragraph of the Vision for Strategic Policy proposed by the candidate, Senator Le Sueur accepts that there are many areas that he cannot, of course, cover in his vision, or indeed in his opening remarks to the Assembly. I would be very interested to hear from the candidate for Chief Minister what steps he proposes to take to enhance that important part of Jersey which is so important to us all and also to our tourism, which is our culture and heritage.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Our culture and heritage takes many forms. We have, I think, an excellent range of theatrical and artistic events put on. We also have a rich rural and cultural heritage in our built environments, in our countryside and in our fine old Jersey buildings. That covers both town and country, and I believe that in the forthcoming Island Plan, we need to work together in that plan to stimulate the culture of the Island in a broader sense than just maybe that of an elitist idea, but one which really affects the whole community.

The Connétable of St. Helier : Can I ask a supplementary, Sir?

The Bailiff :

No, Constable, I am afraid not, because there are a number of Members who wish to ask questions, I am sure, at this stage; but I may come back to you. I should have announced - I hope the Greffier will take this into account in his calculation of time - that the 40 minute period will be interrupted after 35 minutes by the ringing of a bell as a warning, and the second bell will be rung at the end of the 40 minute period. Because a number of Members do wish to ask questions, I hope that Members will be concise in their questioning, and equally that the Senator will be concise in his responses. I saw Deputy Southern .

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

I heard mention twice, I believe, of the word "consensus" and the word "consensual", and 3 times "inclusive". In terms of his first-11, as it were - his first 9 - how inclusive is the Minister prepared to be? Will he say which Ministers he has allocated to his first team, and will he confirm or deny that in fact it looks very much the same as was in the past, that it concerns Le Sueur , Routier, Ozouf , Maclean, Cohen, Le Main, et cetera, adding perhaps Le Fondré and Gorst - 2 more accountants. Are we going to have a government by accountants?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur : I certainly hope so.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Thank goodness I am a used car dealer. [Laughter]

Senator S. Syvret:

Can I just make the observation that I really do not think this set of the proceedings should be disrupted and the time wasted by such interventions.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I think in respect of the attributes or experience of candidates, they should be people of demonstrable quality and ability, and whether they are accountants or car dealers or anyone else, I want the people best suited to do the job. Certainly, I have been impressed by the way that certain Ministers already carry out their duty, people like Senator Ozouf , Senator Routier, Senator Shenton, Senator Cohen, Senator Le Main who, although were Ministers in the past I would like to see Ministers in the future in different duties, and only the last 2 of those that I named I would keep in their present roles. I also want to appoint 3 newly elected Senators and a Deputy . But finally, Sir, I have to say that it is not my choice at the end of the day, it is the choice of this House as to who becomes elected as Ministers. But I believe that we need to have a team which can best do the job in the difficult times ahead.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Does the candidate believe that there should be a written constitution for Jersey for the future of Jersey? If not, would he explain why he is confident that the current measures are sufficient?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

That is a very broad question, and my short answer is that I am not convinced that a written constitution is in the best interest of the Island. We have done very well for the last 800 years with a constitution which is understood rather than written, and I think as you, Sir, said in your remarks in the Royal Court this morning, we do not tinker lightly with our important traditions.

Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Sorry, Sir. With due respect, Deputy Southern asked my question. I will think of another one.

4. Senator B.E. Shenton:

The Senator mentioned during his speech that he would listen to the people. I would like to put it to the Senator that the majority of the Islanders do not want the underpass. Would he listen to the people in this respect?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I will certainly listen to the people's views and use them to influence any decision. But I would say to the Senator and to the Members of the House that the Waterfront Master Plan was adopted by the States earlier in the summer, and that was done on the basis that there would be an underpass as part of that development. So, I think the decision, to that extent, has already been made by this House.

5. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

Given that it was only as recent as last September that neither you, Senator Le Sueur , nor Senator Breckon supported my proposition to establish a committee for the oversight of Jersey's Human Rights Law or for Ministers to explain why legislation they are proposing is Human Rights compliant, what steps, if any, will you, as Chief Minister, be taking to ensure that there is greater awareness of, and support for, Jersey's Human Rights Law?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I believe it would be a democratic process and this House debated that issue, as the Deputy says, very recently and came to the conclusion that there are better ways of doing this than setting up committees. I find one of the problems with the States today is that there is too much regulation, too much red tape and not enough commonsense and thought and setting up more committees such as this does not strike me as adding a great deal to the benefit of the people of the Islands. [Approbation]

6. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

In June, the previous Council of Ministers revealed Keeping Jersey Special which put environment at the heart of the Council of Ministers' agenda. Would the Senator agree with this and what environmental initiative would be his priority?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I think environmental initiatives are a high priority but I wanted to make that a priority which is shared by Members and the people of the Island. I think we can do that by ensuring that we do strike a right balance in protecting and preserving all that is best in Jersey and I think, as I said, of our rich, cultural and coastal heritage but also acknowledging that there are certain parts of the Island which have fallen into some disrepair and neglect, maybe, in terms of declining industries which should not be left just in that situation but could be put to better effect. That is just one example where I believe that the wider consultation on the Island Plan and maybe a broader, holistic approach to the next Island Plan would produce better results.

7. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Over the past few months several reports, including a Scrutiny report that I was personally involved with, have made recommendations concerning the redefinition of the overall political responsibility for children. I would like to know if the candidate has any thoughts as to how this could be best be dealt with?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Yes, I believe this is an important area and one of my proposals is to involve Assistant Ministers much more closely in this activity because I think there is an important role to play across different departments and different Ministries. It is something which goes right across the whole requirement of many parts of the Island particularly in terms of Education, Health, Home Affairs and Social Security. Clearly, although we can have a cross-department approach, there has to be one clear accountable leader so there will need to be a Minister in overall charge but I would want to see that Minister spreading that over a variety of Ministries and assistant Ministries. One of my activities would be that on Thursdays, which I have designated as Ministers' day, that when Ministers are not sitting for Council they should be meeting on subgroups, such as the children's subgroup, in order that this can be focused upon rather more so than maybe it has done over the past 3 years.

8. Senator S. Syvret:

In part B of his statement the Minister says that the environment must be at the heart of States policy. This is a claim that is invariably made by the people leading the Executive, yet within the space of 2 paragraphs, he changes the focus of the statement into one about the need to develop more housing and stimulate the housing market. How does the Senator expect to be taken seriously when, within the space of 2 paragraphs, he presents precisely the same old, mutually exclusive, contradictory policies that we have grown sick of in the past? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The Senator seems to equate providing additional housing with the need to encroach upon green field sites and that is not a natural consequence. I also believe that, as much as I want to support the rural environment, I also want to support people - the people of Jersey - and there are some people in Jersey who, I believe, are still inadequately housed. That is something which we cannot condone continuing more than is necessary and so there has to be a balance struck. I was anxious, in making my statement, to indicate that I was aware of both sides of this difficult argument but I have to acknowledge the importance of treating people and getting their basic rights, including the right to be housed, as part of that activity.

9. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Following on from Deputy Southern 's comments I would hope that the preponderance of accountants in the proposed Cabinet would be indicative of the fact that the Senator wants a more accountable government - and you can laugh if you want to, just to break the ice. The question I will put in context is this you may know that the Time-for-Change group has held a mock election, so to speak. It is not scientific and it is self-selecting, the results of which so far indicate that out of 324 cast there are 72 who would favour Senator Le Sueur and 252 who would favour Alan Breckon. I do emphasise that this is not scientific in any way. The question I have, on that basis, is does the Senator believe that he has the backing of the public, bearing in mind that he does not have a fresh mandate, and the secondary question, does he think that is necessary to have the backing of the public?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I want to endeavour to have the backing of every member of the community as someone who can deliver something in the interests of the whole community of Jersey. As to having a fresh mandate, I indicated yesterday on the radio that I was elected 3 years ago on the basis of the policies I had then and the principles I had then. My policies have not changed in the last 3 years, my principles have not changed in the last 3 years and they will not change in the next 3 years. So, I believe that if I was good enough to be elected 3 years ago I am good enough today. As to having government more accountable, accountability is not the prerogative solely of accountants. Accountability is something which we all have to take seriously in whatever we are doing. Yes, I do want Ministers to be more accountable. I want all of us to be more accountable to the people that we serve, the people who elected us.

10. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier :

I would just like to say that listening to your comments about listening to the people that have elected you in the past - the people that have elected us, therefore the people of the Island of Jersey - you say you want more openness and listening, why then did you ignore 19,000 who signed the anti-G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) petition? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I did not ignore 19,200 votes, I took them very seriously and I considered in that whether that view was something that ought to be translated into a change of policy. Ultimately, I felt that the policy that we have adopted - the whole of this strategy - was the correct one but, as is the prerogative, the ultimate decision was made in this Chamber and it was the States who decided that they aimed to continue with the existing arrangements acknowledging the fact that that petition had been presented and had been understood.

11. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

The Minister referred in his written submission to liquid waste and drains and the need for future planning. We have suffered for the considerable uninvestment in not only property holdings assets but also technical and plant at T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services). How can this be funded in order that the omissions we have suffered from in the past do not come back to bite us in the near future?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I can only agree with the Constable of St. Brelade, that the replacement of the Bellozanne incinerator was something which was long overdue and that that incinerator is a blot on the landscape and a blot of our healthy Island. As to liquid waste, there are 2 issues tied up in that. Firstly, the need to keep that treatment plant up to date and, secondly, the need to maintain an adequate drainage system and much as I would like to see a drainage system extended I think it is more important, firstly, that we maintain what we have and make sure that does not deteriorate. At the end of the day, all these services are highly desirable and they all cost more money and we have to decide at the end of the day where our balance lies, whether we want to put money into extending the drainage network or encouraging greater resources for child protection or other activities. It would be for this House, in the context of discussing the strategic plan over the next few months, to decide where our priorities lie and there are going to be some very difficult decisions to make there in trying to assess those priorities. That is why I do want to encourage all Members to participate in that in order that we can get a consensual decision for the benefit of the people of the Island.

12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

To what extent should Scrutiny Panel recommendations be made binding on Ministers? [Laughter]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Perhaps to the same extent that Ministerial decisions should be made binding on this House. [Laughter] No, as I see it, the purpose of Scrutiny, and the way I have worked with my Scrutiny Panel in the past, is to help Ministers come up with the right policy decisions to implement the States objectives in the right way. If Ministers can learn from Scrutiny then they should and they must and where Scrutiny Panel recommendations add value to the Ministerial thoughts, yes, they should be taken on board. Where there are differences of opinion it may well be that both sides cannot reconcile their point of view and that is why policy decisions, at the end of the day, come to this Chamber to be decided and it is for States Members, who can understand the point of view put forward both by the Minister and by the Scrutiny Panel, to decide. My objective would be for Scrutiny Panels and Ministers to work more closely, more often and more together in order to get the best possible result. [Approbation]

13. Deputy T. Pitman of St. Helier :

We have heard much talk of experience from the Senator. I think if the last 3 years have shown us anything it is that spin is not enough. So, in talking of experience, could the Senator outline for us what experience  he can offer the Assembly in representing Jersey on the international stage? Thank you.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Yes, in my activities to date I have represented Jersey both at the British Irish Council and in France - in Paris and then in Normandy - at various meetings there and chaired meetings where relevant. I think international affairs is something which I want to devote not only more personal attention to but, in fact, I want to see the Council of Ministers setting up a working group looking at international affairs because I believe that over the next 2 or 3 years, certainly over the next few months, the international dimension of government is going to become far more important and far more critical. It is something, in fact, more than enough for one person, even the Chief Minster. It is something that needs to involve a small team of Ministers and, ultimately, perhaps the whole House but, certainly, I would want to set up a team of Ministers in order to progress a more comprehensive international approach than currently we have been able to adopt.

14. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

The Comptroller and Auditor General, supported by the Public Accounts Committee, suggested in his spending review a number of ideas for reducing expenditure and improving efficiency. What priority will the Senator give to these proposals?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Not only will give them priority but the previous Council of Ministers already began giving them priority and addressing those concerns and we will continue to do so. Some of those recommendations, of course, are going to be more difficult to achieve in practice than others and we will have to see just how the recommendations for saving money go against the personal needs and the personal views of other Members of the States. I take advice from the Comptroller and Auditor General very seriously. I value his advice but, at the end of the day, that advice is written from an accountant's point of view and, speaking as an accountant among a few accountants in this Chamber, there are other points of view besides those of accountants. [Approbation]

15. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

I note in the Minister's statement he mentions tinkering with government reform. Will he be looking at Clothier's recommendations of a more democratic and transparent system and for election on one day for all Members?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Yes, the short answer to the last part of that question is I wanted to see one election day for all Members. I think the last election for Constables and Deputies or Deputies and, in some cases, Constables, where they also had a referendum as well, has demonstrated quite clearly that the public can cope with answering 3 questions on one day [Approbation] and I believe that that should be something which the Council of Ministers and the Privileges and Procedures Committee should take forward together and, I would hope, get the blessing of every Member of this House. As to the Clothier reforms, generally, when the proposal was put forward some years ago the decision of the House was divided and although the proposals were adopted they were adopted by a majority, not an overwhelming majority. I think it indicated that the process was likely to be an evolutionary, gradual one. We have seen some bits of it and maybe we have been cherry-picking certain bits and ignoring other bits but I think it will continue to be an evolutionary process and certainly the move to one election day will be a further step in that evolution.

16. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter :

As the I.C.T. (Information and Communication Technology) and Human Resources Department come under the Chief Minister's office, how does the Minister intend to take these departments forward in the coming years?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

With additional resources in the Chief Minister's Department I wanted to see a Deputy Chief Executive in there who can take overall responsibility for some of these matters. One of the things I have been very proud of over the last few years is the way in which, by co-ordinating things like human resources and payroll and administration of financial transactions, we have been able to achieve significant efficiencies which have resulted in money being available for the public benefit. I want to see that continue and I want also to get better value out of our existing I.C.T. activities which, I think, sometimes are unknown to many Members and maybe are done from a technician's point of view rather than from the State Members point of view. I think, perhaps, what we needed to do is get a clear understanding of what the I.C.T. Department does and maybe for that department to get a clearer understanding of what we do.

17. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

The Haut de la Garenne affair and various associated issues have had the effect of polarising the community and truth seems to have become a casualty. How would the Chief Minister candidate deal with the fallout from Haut de la Garenne and other affairs in order that we can somehow find our way to the truth and to enduring solutions to what is a terrible affair?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The truth becomes a casualty when rumour takes over. [Approbation] I want to ensure that the police continue to be given all the resources they need to ensure that any injustices are discovered, brought to trial and, through the judicial process, are dealt with in the proper way. I will continue to support whatever resources are required in order to do that. If people were to avoid speculating and rumour mongering then it might be possible for the truth to come out and I think, sadly, it may take a little bit longer for the truth to come out but it does not get helped by rumour-mongering and speculation.

18. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

I would like a truthful answer to this question. We have heard the candidate say, again, we are going to be inclusive - he must consult - and then in the same breath the candidate has said he is going to keep most of the same Ministers who were there before. He has also said he has a mandate for this House because he was elected 3 years ago on principles and policies that have not changed and he also assured us they will not change in the next 3 years. Can the Senator tell me, is it going to be more of the same, does he not accept the world has moved on and how can I be sure that we will not get exactly what we had before with not inclusive and one side trying to squeeze out information, if this person is elected as Chief Minister? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am very conscious of the concerns that the Deputy has. I am not going to change my principles but I am prepared to change my policies or to listen to other people's policies if the view of the Members in this Chamber is that there is a different point of view which is better than mine. In trying to be more inclusive I think that that embraces all of us and should embrace all of us. There have been divisions in the past, which I wanted to see eradicated, divisions maybe caused by secrecy or lack of information or lack of trust. I would like, in this new school term, if you like - new 3-year term of office - that we start from a position of openness and trust in one another and talking to one another. I want to break down any sort of divisions. I do want to make this House more inclusive. That is not just something that I can do. I will instil that message certainly, in whichever Ministers get appointed, but I want that message to go not just to Ministers. I want that message to go through to every States Member, whatever role they play in the States over the next 3 years, to ensure that we can demonstrate to the public that we are a responsible and inclusive government working for the benefit of the people.

19. Deputy S. Pitman:

I will try and make a better job of this. [Laughter] The Minister has said that he wants to create an inclusive society and make Jersey a better place for all. He has also said that we have one of the best social security systems in the world. It is a fact that since the implementation of the new income support system, charities are now facing more pressure due to those who are on income support. Further, that chronically ill people on income support are now receiving £5 a week to pay for their doctors' bills which average around £27. As the Senator ignored the conclusions brought by the Income Support Scrutiny Panel how will he now assure us that all those recipients on income support will not have to struggle to pay to go to the doctor instead of going to A&E (Accident and Emergency) which is happening now? Also how will he create a society which is less dependent on state benefit which is contrary to what the States have agreed to and implemented this year? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I think there were several questions rolled up into that one. I will, maybe, have to take a bit longer. I said we have one of the best social security systems in the world and I stand by those comments. I acknowledge and I have said that the income support system is a significant improvement on what we had in the past but it still can improve further and although the Deputy shakes her head I would remind her and remind Members of the time when we used to have to go to Housing, to Education, to the Parishes, to a variety of places with filling in different forms and getting benefits at different rates. The new system, in principle, is far better than that and, yes, it does have imperfections and the Scrutiny Panel did point out some of those imperfections. I think States Members listened to the report of that panel and decided just what it could do within the funds available to the Minister for Social Security and I think that the funds available to the Minister for Social Security were used in the best possible way. Since that debate the Minister has received more funding as a result of the amendments last week in the budget which will enable still further progress to be made in helping those people on income support. In response to the final part of the question as to how to create a society where people have less need to access benefits, the answer there is twofold. Firstly, we have to keep jobs and that is why one of my priorities is to maintain a high level of employment in the Island. Unless people are employed they lose a lot of their self-esteem and they also increase their dependency on benefits. So we need to have an economy which supports and enhances job opportunities and we also need to make sure that we have a Skills Executive which is able to give better training to enable people to have better opportunities to undertake more fulfilling jobs and, again, increase their self-esteem.

20. The Dean of Jersey:

I was very encouraged to hear what the Senator had to say about an inclusive society. I am sure he knows that there are many young people in the Island who feel that there is not enough infrastructure designed to support them whereas there are many older people in the Island whose perception is that St. Helier is not a safe place to walk at night. I wonder how he will invest in our young people and help bridge the gap between young and old?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

A quite tricky question to answer in that one has to acknowledge the needs of all sections of the community. I think part of the need is to encourage and support more youth activities and we have seen recently the introduction, for example, of a skate park but I think part of the difficulty with all of this is that we are looking at material objects there, things for them to have, whereas what I think they need is personal support and encouragement. We need more people for them to talk to, for them to interact with. That would be, to some extent, within the ambit of the Youth Department but I think it is a broader issue than that. We have to have, and if we can have, a more inclusive society in which young people are acknowledged as adults with equal responsibilities and equal abilities

and equal chance to contribute to the society to which they belong. Young people often are a little bit nervous and afraid to come forward. In some cases they will need support and encouragement in order to do that and it is up to us as older and more responsible people and leaders of the community, to give that encouragement to them in order that they can be drawn out to play a fuller, more constructive part in society of the future.

21. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John :

In terms of electoral reform that we might be tinkering with again, we have a system with Senatorial candidates for the Island-wide mandate; we have the Connnétables that have to stand in their own Parish. Does the Senator think it is correct that Deputies can seek an easy option and stand where they do not live?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Yes, it is the right of a Deputy to stand wherever he wishes and it is the right of the electors of that district to decide whether that person is the best person for the job. [Approbation] I think that that probably has answered the question but in terms of Senators themselves, I think that there is still a place for an Island-wide mandate and an Island-wide role for Senators.

22. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Does the candidate consider the life enriching branding of the Island firstly, to be good value and secondly, appropriate and, if elected, will he undertake to reconsider the image that Jersey wishes to promote?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

The life enriching branding is very much a subjective issue but I believe what is important is that the Island does not chop and change with this sort of thing. It takes a while for a brand name to get established and I think over the next few years, with continual use and with diversification of that branding and with proper use of it, we can use it to improve the opportunities in the Island not only for our businesses to develop but for the people within those businesses to continue to enjoy business opportunities and work opportunities. I think that what we are seeing is that that brand is now spreading across into other areas such as "Keeping Jersey Fresh" and so on. It has become a trademark of Jersey, if you like, and certainly I would not want the review and start again. I think it is difficult enough trying to find any brand which, initially, pleases everybody. I think when you

see a new car design it very often looks bad to start with and then in a year's time you think: "Oh, is it not great?" That may happen with the present brand - the present logo - but there is more to marketing, there is more to branding, than a logo.

23. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

With current pressures both upon poorer members of our society and upon middle-Jersey how does the Senator propose to deal with the issue of 1(1)(k)s and to ensure that both future 1(1)(k)s and the current 1(1)(k)s pay their fair share of tax? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

That was an issue which concerned me several years ago when I first became President of the Finance and Economics Committee as a result of which I brought forward proposals to the States which the States adopted to clarify the law in relation to 1(1)(k) residents and for any new 1(1)(k) residents the terms of that legislation are clearly set out and indicate and ensure that they pay tax according to the law, just like anybody else. I think sometimes people regard 1(1)(k) residents as a bit of a parasite on the Island I would just like to remind Members that, per head, they pay considerably more. The requirements of the Migration Department are such that they need a tax bill of at least £100,000 a year now to be eligible to qualify for 1(1)(k) licence under Housing Regulations. Now a tax bill of £100,000 a year is probably more than most households in the Island earn in that time. If these people were not in the Island it would be the ordinary tax payers of Jersey who would have to make up that tax revenue, so I think we get very good value for money out of 1(1)(k) residents. In fact the obstacles, if you like, which we put in their path are far more serious than obstacles you would get in other jurisdictions such as Switzerland where it is far easier for these people than to come to the Island. But I do not want to focus on 1(1)(k) residents simply the financial money side, they also contribute a lot in terms of employment activities and social benefits for the good of the people of the Island and in assessing who should be 1(1)(k) residents, I think that the department takes all these factors into account.

24. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier :

The Senator mentions in his vision, working closer with the Skills Executive to reduce the need to attract immigrant labour. My question, is it not time for a robust system of population control?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

It is time to ensure that any people who come to the Island make a positive contribution to the Island and are not a drain on the Island's activities. We will always need people coming to the Island, be that in teaching or medical services or other areas where we do not have the skills at present ourselves. So it has to be a 2-handed approach. Yes, we have to reduce the need to bring in labour from outside to do the things we cannot do ourselves and that means that we have to increase the skills of the local workforce and diversify the skills of the local workforce. I think that is something which the Skills Executive is already getting underway very well already. In terms of setting anything like an artificial population cap, that is going to be very difficult. What we need to have is an objective of making sure that we have an Island which can sustain a population at a certain level and which gets better value for money and better results from that immigration. What I do not want to see is either an open door where people can flood-in, or a completely closed door where no one can come in, because neither is in the long-term interests of the people of Jersey.

25. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence

Does the candidate's proposed inclusive Council include women? [Approbation]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I would very much like to include a woman on the Council of Ministers and I have asked several Members, lady Members, if they would be prepared to serve on the Council of Ministers. But I qualify that by saying that I want Ministers of proven ability and experience. I believe that there are cases where that could happen and if Members decide or choose that there should be a woman on the Council of Ministers, I would welcome that greater diversity of opinion. I do not think we should have a woman on the Council just as the token woman. I think if they are there they are there because they are the right person for the job.

26. Deputy G.P. Southern :

As Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Senator has developed a reputation of playing hardball. What piece of evidence would he point to to confirm that following his open and consultative process, inclusive process in the States he is capable of changing his mind?

The Bailiff :

Beaten by the bell, I am afraid, Deputy . [Laughter] That concludes the time allowed for the questioning of Senator Le Sueur . I invite Senator Le Sueur to retire, please, to a distant place and Senator Breckon to be brought back to the Chamber. I will send out a call. I hope that all Members who are in the precincts will now return to their seats in order to hear Senator Breckon. Perhaps while Members return I can repeat for the benefit of Senator Breckon that there will be a period of 10 minutes allowed for his speech and that when he has concluded his speech the Assembly will be permitted to question him for 40 minutes. After 35 minutes there will be the first bell and after 40 minutes the second bell. Now I must say that if there are Members still in the precincts I think it is important that they should return to their seats. [Approbation]

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Maybe we could cast the roll call and see who is not interested in hearing who is going to be Jersey's Chief Minister. I think it is ridiculous, we have just had an election and on the first and most important issue Members are not in their places.

The Bailiff :

I call upon Senator Breckon to address the Assembly.

2. Senator A Breckon:

Before launching into my few minutes, I would like to add my name to those who have already paid tribute to Jersey's first Chief Minister, Senator Frank Walker . It is said that he has led from the front with courage, conviction and commitment in his own style and he can rightly say that he

did it his way and I would agree with that. The difficulty for anyone following this is that they firstly have to convince the Members of this House and then subsequently, with colleagues, serve the public and deliver to a high level of expectation. Nothing less will do. I am sure Members appreciate this is a considerable challenge that no one can or indeed will achieve on their own. However, I believe I can play a part because I am still a student of the University of Life from which there is only one graduation ceremony. I wish to say that I was brought up in a secure, 3 and briefly 4-generation family environment in which respect, family values and a strong work ethic existed. My reason for saying that is I am aware of the grounding this gave me for life. I do not need an adviser, a report or a consultant to tell me it has served me well so far. However, I am also aware of those who did not have the same family structure and set of values and this is something we, as a whole House, can and indeed, I believe, must demonstrate for and to each other and to support the community we serve: I would say support family values. We must have the heart of the community in everything that we do and show respect for each other and our community, celebrate our differences, share in common goals and objectives and by doing this, I believe that we will lay solid foundations for our future in what will be difficult times. I believe that we have a great deal of resource and enthusiasm among us to pool, share and harness for the common good, for the benefit of the people and also embrace the spirit of dedication and commitment that flows through our honorary system. I am conscious of the considerable turmoil that exists in global financial markets, that will, in my opinion, create some uncertainty of employment and affect not only levels of profits for businesses but also our investment performance and our funds under management. I welcome those outsiders - some for the umpteenth time - who wish to investigate, question or inquire about our financial services industry or other Island matters. However, I would ask that they inject accuracy not fantasy into their reports. I would show them kindness, courtesy and respect - maybe even give them a feed of spuds - and they can go back to whence they came, hopefully well informed and wiser for their experience. Having said that, we should listen, take notice and respect outside influences, views and opinions, but we must remain masters of our own

destiny. We must beware of those who are ill-informed and maybe envious of our success and hell- bent on destroying it. They must be given short shrift. If asked to jump, I would want to know why rather than how high. While these bigger issues maybe challenging to us like perhaps never before, we must respect and value everyone in our society. I believe that there are some practical things that we can do in the short term for considerable public gain. Because of my wealth of experience and community involvement, I wish to lead a team that will be inclusive, not just a team of Ministers and Assistant Ministers, but also other States Members and I would welcome and involve the many talents of people in our community. My ethos is to include not to exclude. I have no problem trusting and delegating to others and encourage and support them to get on with the job. I produced a short policy paper which I am sure Members will have read and I will be pleased to answer any questions arising from this or any other matter later. I believe that the Jersey public have a high level of expectation of government to deliver essential benefits and quality services and rightly so in my opinion. However, we all may face a period of focusing on what is achievable rather than what is nice to have. I believe that all- yes all - of us would benefit by visiting the various States Departments, talking to people at the sharp end who work there, at an early opportunity in 2009. Seeing exactly what it is they do on a day-to-day basis so that we can celebrate success and witness first-hand all the things that we are doing well and share with those whose problems will challenge us in the future. I would see this as a high priority for new Ministers. I believe we also need to appreciate and support fully the many organisations that are part of the lifeblood that runs through our community; Family Nursing and Homecare, Citizens Advice, Jersey Hospice, Mencap and Focus on Mental Health, Association of Carers, Alzheimer's Society, Age Concern and Senior Citizens, and numerous uniformed and voluntary organisations. These and many others offering vital disciplines and vital targeted support to people in our community in their time of need, all deserve our full support and recognition for their sterling work. Many unsung heroes who work with dedication on a daily basis. Throughout the parishes many other groups do sterling work. I would say, especially to new Members, find out what is going on.

Ask your Connétable , get involved. These are the grass roots organisations that, I believe, we should be working with. The bedrock of our community. This applies also to our schools. By doing this, all of us - I repeat all of us - I believe, can reconnect with the people and restore their faith in government. This, I should believe, would be our first strategic plan: what we all must do now, we must buy into it. Not some booklet with lots of jargon and a few numbers that is waiting to be published. Things I have mentioned are part of the agenda I see and wish to work towards because I believe that we still have some work to do to reconnect with the people. Many people have expressed concerns to me about the unhealthy degree of secrecy under which the previous Council of Ministers has operated and conducted some of its business. But rather than dwell on that, I will propose to put in place an effective communication strategy as opposed to spin as a vital part of good government. I believe Ministers should report more directly and be accountable to this Assembly and I would see that there is regular electronic circulation of Ministerial decisions as opposed to having to hunt for them; and more Ministerial statements to this Assembly where they can be questioned openly by other Members rather than the current system of press releases directly to the media on a wet Friday afternoon. Property: we currently occupy maybe 600,000 square feet of office space located on 76 sites. It is estimated we could release 20 per cent of this. I believe it could make a significant contribution to Housing and should be pursued actively. Overdale is a prime site that has been left to deteriorate to an unacceptable standard. I would urge Members to go and have a look for themselves. I believe a modern centre of excellence on Overdale must be considered. Local architects should be involved in a design competition to introduce an alternative scheme for the site with elderly care at its core. Funding for elderly care is also an issue and I believe it must be addressed through the Social Security system with the proactivity of Ministers involved. Guernsey has a system, for heaven's sake. I am sure we can beat and better that. I also would support a States-funded skill and trades training scheme for the under 25s that gives financial assistance to employers to provide proper training placements. Areas such as a range of building trades, mechanics, marine trades, office skills. Let us equip these young people for the future. It is a commonsense thing to do. Also I believe we must target - put a greater emphasis on - those with literacy and numeracy difficulties. Early intervention and investment now will equip them well in the future. If elected I would work on these and other issues for the common good. I would do it my way, but not on my own but with the support of you and the support of the people. I hope the

content of this has given some food for thought and I welcome Members' questions. Thank you.

The Bailiff :

The period of questioning will now open. Deputy Shona Pitman?

1. Deputy S. Pitman:

As the Senator has led the fight against G.S.T., how would he have raised the money to fill the so- called black hole?

Senator A. Breckon:

I did, as part of not this year's budget, last year's budget, propose a number of amendments which were rejected by the House. One was referring to stamp duty on property and the other was stamp duty on inheritance. The House rejected both of those. Those would have raised about £8 million. I am still not convinced we have looked at all of the issues including looking at the Social Security system. So there are things that we need to do, I believe, and revisit. As it goes on we are where we are, but we need to do it obviously carefully in view of the current financial markets and the downturn which is coming in the economy which is predicted elsewhere.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Senator has made numerous references to inclusivity and community values. Would he be prepared to tell us what his first-11 might be to achieve such inclusivity in his selection of Ministers in the first place?

Senator A. Breckon: Did you mean the first 9?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Yes, 11 is metaphorical. [Laughter]

Senator A. Breckon:

Could I further question the Deputy ? Does he want me to name names?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I would love for the Minister to name names.

Senator A. Breckon:

Perhaps I may do this as known expressions of interest. Of course, as Members are aware, it is not the Chief Minister designate who will elect the Ministers, it is this House. Just on that I would add I hope that there will be contested elections for most posts, if not all. In no particular order, I understand from the jungle drums that in Education I think Senator Shenton has expressed an interest, as indeed has Deputy Le Hérissier and the Deputy of St. Ouen. I am not aware of anyone else, but I should say that somebody said to me that if I was not elected Chief Minister would I be interested, so I should add that caveat in case I appear from under the radar. Health: the names of Senators Perchard and Routier have been mentioned and I should add to that I have also been approached, if not as Chief Minister would I allow my name to go forward as well? So again, I am not going to stand for everything, I do not think, or we will see. Treasury and Resources: I will share with Members that I have had a conversation with Senator Le Sueur . If I was elected I did ask if he would stay there because I believe he has done a good job, we do not agree on everything, but it is not about that, it is about getting the job done and in return he asked if I would be interested in T.T.S., so [Laughter] we are where we are. But I understand also the name of Senator Ozouf has been mentioned .. no, no, [Laughter] we are still on Treasury and also Deputy Gorst 's name has been mentioned in high places. Home Affairs: Senator Le Marquand's name has been mentioned and also, to me, the name of a Constable, a Connétable who I will not name. That is good and healthy if that were to happen because it would ensure that it was a contested election if we have 2 or more candidates. Social Security: the names that have been mentioned are Deputy Southern and Deputy Gorst . Planning: there are probably about 53 candidates for Planning but as far as I know Senator Cohen is interested and a name that has been mentioned is that of Deputy Le Fondré. Housing: names that have been mentioned are Senator Le Main, the Deputy of St. Ouen, again my own name was mentioned for Housing - it was in the Jersey Evening Post so it must be true - and also I had mentioned the name of Senator Ozouf as I believe he could do an excellent job

at Housing. T.T.S: the names I have heard mentioned, if not 53, were Senator Ferguson, I said myself, also Senator Perchard, Deputy Duhamel and Deputy Rondel. I think we are done, I think that is the 9. Apologies for anybody I may have missed.

Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

I am sorry, I may have misunderstood Deputy Southern , but I thought the question was would the Senator please name his proposed team, not all the candidates that we are all aware of.

The Bailiff :

Well, I .. do you want to answer that?

Senator A. Breckon:

I did say that it would be up to me to make nominations but perhaps I would add to that, I would like to have, if elected, conversations with many people rather than just accepting it at face value.

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Details are emerging about serious allegations to do with doctors and surgeons in Jersey working excessive hours. In their words: "Shifts that would be illegal in the United Kingdom." After several months of having this kept under wraps, the media are now starting to talk about it. If elected, what would the Senator propose to do to bring out the issues at the hospital where people are scared, for fear of their jobs, to mention issues that may involve patient safety?

Senator A. Breckon:

My understanding is that most of the medical associations are represented by the trade body, as it were, and they would lay down I know with hospital consultants, for example, and particularly junior doctors, things have changed from a few years ago and there are limits on hours of work. I am concerned to hear that because if that is the case then there is probably a risk to the public, if it is true. But it must be anything raised in such a manner must be .. the evidence must be presented and acted upon. If that is the case and I ..

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

On a point of  information, would not the Senator admit that a politician standing up in this Assembly and raising this is not, in itself, evidence?

Senator A. Breckon:

It is not evidence, you need to speak to the people involved and get that information and there must be some way of checking that because if people are working these hours there must be some record of who is on duty when. So obviously it needs to be investigated and if there are problems it needs to be acted on, but it is difficult to discuss any issue like that in sort of open session. It needs to be investigated by the people involved.

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

In the statement produced by Senator Breckon, he makes reference to the proposed new car park on the soon to be demolished Ann Court site. He says: "I have requested a report into the condition of Minden Place car park and work done and costs for the improvement to Patriotic Street car park." He then goes on to say: "If money tightens, I really question why we are doing this. Is it the best use of public funds?" My question to the candidate is this, many reports have been carried out over the last 3, 4, 5 years into the feasibility of delivering the Town Park and all the reports report conclusively that a multi-storey car park should be built on the Ann Court site. Does he support the siting of a new car park on the Ann Court site in order to facilitate the delivery of the new Town Park on the Gas Place/Talman land and if he does not, what is his alternative?

Senator A. Breckon:

There is a missing link in this. We have not seen the Transport Strategy; do we have a car accommodation policy, I have also put that underneath? I understand a private developer on the old Ann Street Brewery site is building a car park. That is in the plans as well. So, I understand what the Deputy is saying, but this is something that is coming under the radar because the money is in the Car Parks Fund and it was one of the recommendations of EDAW but of course anybody can make recommendations who does not have to pay for them. What I am saying in that paper is, in the current economic climate, is it right and the reason I have asked for the report on Minden Place and I have now found out that Patriotic Street cost £1 million the refurbishment, but £1 million is cheaper than £9 million.  So, what do we need to do to Minden Place to keep it intact? What are we going to create there? I am not sure where this fits into a Traffic and Transport Strategy because I have not seen one. It has been discussed umpteen times by the Council of Ministers and we have not seen it, so why are we building another car park when a private developer is going to build one on the Ann Street site? They had an application in: they perhaps would do it for us. There is another one being built in Kensington Place. What are we doing about parking and car accommodation? In my opinion, we must stop before we spend £9 million, I do not have a problem with the Town Park, but this is somebody else's wishes, not ours and I think we should investigate it before we spend £9 million in the current climate.

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

The Comptroller and Auditor General, supported by the P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee), suggested in his spending review a number of ideas for reducing expenditure and improving efficiency. What priority will the Senator give to those proposals?

Senator A. Breckon:

As a Senator now I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee so I have seen this and we have discussed it at some length in reports and in meetings. Part of the problem was, again, from the previous Council of Ministers, the £35 million of savings that were not. But I think what we must do in the current climate, without intimidating those who are vulnerable or on benefits, we must look at everything we spend money on and be sensible about it. We must not put up the sacrificial lambs and threaten elderly services and things like that. We must look at everything that we do and I believe there are savings in the system. We must do that because it is the thing, I think, that we should be .. and as the Senator will know, the Public Accounts Committee has a lot of work still to do because we need to have more transparent budgets so that we can see where there are some discrepancies year to year: what we approve in strategic plans and business plans and the outcomes are different. So I think we need to get back to the accounting to look at it and Ministers, and indeed all of us, need to be more accountable for that and we need to deliver the right policies at the right price. That is without threatening or intimidating those in our society who need essential services and who need that support. Now, I believe we can do that and we can be more prudent with our finances, but we must not be silly either and we must give people, including the Members of this House, some options. I think we need better lines of communication with the public and with each other to do that and I am not sure we have got it right because budgets past and previous have been delivered to us at some busy times, and even Scrutiny has not has the time to look different areas. I think that is an area that we can improve on, as indeed with business plans and strategic plans. So in general terms the savings, I think, are still there but I would not like to think that we were worrying anybody that their benefits and essential services would be affected because we must keep those at the core of everything that we do.

The Bailiff :

May I repeat my earlier request, please, for questions and answers to be succinct. Deputy Le Hérissier.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

If a recession were to hit Jersey - a serious recession - what would be Senator Breckon's economic policy and social policy in the event of such a recession?

Deputy A. Breckon:

Those with longer memories will remember in the early 1990s we had unemployment of over 1,000 and we had winter work schemes and things like that. These things mentioned just before. But recessionary effects are around us and it is probably folly to pretend that they will not happen but, of course, anything is damage limitation. So we must look to where that would be and something I mentioned before is assisting young people into employment. There are still lots of things that we can do but in general terms the bigger picture, how it will affect our finances, and in the paper I have produced I have suggested that we do more monitoring and take advice on the effects. As things move on we have seen figures for November in the United States of America where over 500,000 people lost their jobs. The City of London is to be affected and as some banking institutions and household names are wobbling then there will be some affect in Jersey. It is a case of what. But we must put in place a robust reporting system that will pick up the early signs and do what we can to limit the damage. That includes sharing the information among ourselves because, obviously, the less money we have, the less we have to spend and as mentioned earlier where can we save money? We are going to have to look at some of these issues and we are going to have to take some tough decisions, make no mistake about that, and I would not have been truthful if I said anything else.

7. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

What flaws does the Senator identify with the income support system and how would he improve it?

Deputy A. Breckon:

One of the problems - and I know this an area Deputy Martin has done a lot of work on and is, indeed, still working on - is that 14 benefits come together for a standardisation because the system we had before was a bit haphazard. You had different assessment levels for people and people were going from one place to another so bringing things together has taken a long time and there was bound to be teething problems, not just over a couple of weeks or a couple of months, it is going to be a couple of years, I am sure. I think we are not there yet because it is throwing up