States Meeting Transcript - 12/12/2008

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

FRIDAY, 12th DECEMBER 2008

Senator B.E. Shenton:..........................................................................6

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................6

1. Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: .............................................6

1. Senator P.F. Routier:.....................................................................6

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ....................................................8
2. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:..........................................................8
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:.......................................................8
4. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier:......................................................8
5. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:........................................................9
6. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:........................................................9
7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................9
8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ...................................................9
9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................10
10. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................10
11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ..................................................10
12. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : .......................................................11
13. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:...................................................11
14. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:................................................11
15. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier : .......................................................12
16. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :....................................................12
17. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : ..............................................12

2. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................13

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................14
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................15
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................15
4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................15
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................15
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................15
7. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence:......................................................16
8. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................16
9. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................16
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................17
11. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................17
12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................17
13. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................17
14. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................18
15. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................18
16. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................18

17. The Deputy of Trinity : ..............................................................18
18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................18
19. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................19

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:.....................................................................19

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................21
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................21
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................22
4. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................22
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................22
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................22
7. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................23
8. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................23
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................23
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................24
11. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................24
12. Deputy J.B. Fox:....................................................................24
13. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................25
14. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................25
15. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................25
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................25
17. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:......................................26
18. Connétable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour:..........................................26

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................26

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................28
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis .....................................................................28
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
4. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................29
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................29
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................30
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................30
8. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................30
9. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................30
10. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................31
11. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................31
12. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................31
13. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................31
14. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................32
15. Deputy A.T. Dupre of St. Clement:..................................................32
16. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................32
17. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................32
18. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................33
19. The Deputy of Trinity : ..............................................................33

2. Minister for Housing....................................................................33

1. Senator T.J. Le Main:...................................................................36

1. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:...................................................38
2. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................38
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................39
4. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................39
5. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................39

6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................40
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................40
8. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................40
9. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................41
10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................41
11. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................41
12. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................42
13. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................42
14. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................42
15. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42

2. Senator A. Breckon:.....................................................................43

1. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................44
2. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................45
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................45
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................45
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................46
6. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................46
7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................46
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47
9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................47
10. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................47
11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................47
12. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................48
13. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................48
14. The Connétable of Trinity :..........................................................48
15. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter : ......................................................48
16. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................49
17. The Deputy of Trinity : ..............................................................49

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................50 The Greffier of the States (in the Chair):......................................................50

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................50 Deputy G.P. Southern :........................................................................50

3. Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee: ..............................51

1. The Connétable of St. Mary : ............................................................51

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................53
2. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................53
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................54
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................54
5. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................54
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................55
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................55
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................56
9. Deputy T. Pitman: ......................................................................56
10. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................56
11. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................56
12. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................57
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................57
14. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................57

15. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................58

2. Senator S. Syvret:........................................................................58

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................60
2. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................60
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................60
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................61
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................61
6. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................61
7. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................62
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................62
9. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................62
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................63
11. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................63
12. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................63
13. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................64
14. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................64
15. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................64

4. Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee: .........................................65

1. Senator B.E. Shenton:...................................................................65

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................67
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................67
3. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................67
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................68
5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................68
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................68
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................69
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................69

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................69
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................69
11. The Deputy of Grouville : ............................................................70
12. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:....................................................70
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................71
14. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................71
15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................71
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................71
17. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................71
18. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................72

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................72

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................74
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................74
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................74
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................74
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................75
6. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................75
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................75
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................75
9. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................76
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................76
11. The Connétable of Grouville :........................................................76

12. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................76
13. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................77
14. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................77
15. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................77
16. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................77
17. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................78
18. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................78 The Bailiff :...................................................................................80

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................80

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

Approximately 100 people in Sark were made redundant last night, Sir, following the election. As Members will know, there is no Social Security in Sark. I think this will be a fitting time for the Chamber to send out a clear message of support to our sister island at these times. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

I think the Assembly has spoken in response to Senator Shenton and would the Assembly wish me to send a formal message to the Seneschal? [Approbation] I shall certainly do that during the day.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS 1. Minister for Education, Sport and Culture: The Bailiff :

Now we resume with the elections for the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. All nominations have been made. The Deputy of St. Ouen, Deputy Martin and Deputy Le Hérissier, would they please all retire to the distant place?

Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Can I just ask; is that the order we come back in, the order we were proposed?

The Bailiff :

That is the order I have been given by the Greffier, Deputy .

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Thank you. I thought it might be a lottery.

The Bailiff :

Senator, I am sure you do not need to be reminded: 10 minutes, 20 minutes of questioning and warning bells as yesterday.

1. Senator P.F. Routier:

Firstly, I would like to say how grateful I was for the support I received yesterday in the election for Health and I have to say I wish Senator Perchard every success. [Approbation] I do not always agree with the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) editorial but I was humbled by the description that I am "a capable and highly-regarded Member with a strong degree of public trust." Over the lunch break yesterday the Chief Minister elect, as well as several Members, asked me how I could put my skills to good use. I have been flattered by their comments. Last night I also received phone calls from people who pointed out that, facing the electorate in an Island-wide election, they were expecting, and wanted  me to be working on their behalf in a Ministerial role. I thank everybody who has encouraged me to stand. I have served on the Education Committee and the old Sports, Leisure and Recreation Committee, so I am well aware of the scope and the importance of the role. E.S.C. (Education, Sport and Culture) is the area most vital to the future wellbeing of the Island. It is the ministry most concerned with our young people, who are Jersey's future. Our young people need to be able to reach their full potential through our education system, not only attaining good exam results, but, importantly, being equipped with the skills to succeed in life, which are grounded in Jersey's history and culture. Our education system is rightly regarded by people as being excellent. But there is always room for improvement and there are a number of significant challenges to face. The States voted to extend free nursery education to all rising 4 year-olds. Work is well underway in preparing for this to happen this coming September. But it will be the new Minister's task to ensure that the new system involving the private sector works and delivers good quality early years care for all. We will have to consider how we, as an Island, are going to deal with fewer pupils overall in the future, with demographics on the downward trend for

the next few years. This will have an effect on our primary schools and particularly our secondary schools and how they are organised. This is particularly important in relation to the teaching of skills. I was one of the 3 Ministers who made up the Skills Executive. The acquisition of essential skills needs to be more available to all Islanders of all ages. We need to develop more vocational training for 14 to 16 year-olds, as well as preparing for a potential increase in student numbers at Highlands, as part of any economic downturn. We must also continue to develop the policy of making more higher education degree courses available in the Island, building on initiatives such as the recently-launched very successful foundation degree in finance. I want to see more foundation courses in other subjects. Complimenting vocational training in the Island is Careers Jersey, which has brought together all the different aspects of careers guidance into one area, based, I am very pleased to say, at Social Security. This service is going to be vital in securing gainful employment and advising on career changes and development, particularly if more people need to find new jobs. We need to ensure that everyone, including those with learning or other difficulties are included and all Islanders are encouraged to fulfil their potential. It is wrong to offer such outstanding support in education through schools such as Mont à l'Abbé and then have nothing to offer after schooling is finished. The States have recognised this in increased funding for supported training and employment. Education will need to play a vital role in ensuring this is delivered. Other challenges facing the E.S.C. include dealing with probable increases in higher education costs in the future. I would continue to argue with the U.K. Government that Jersey and other Crown dependencies should not be treated any less favourably than the British overseas territories, whose young people have home status when they are studying in the U.K. We must be aware that if this is not successful there are likely to be substantial university fee increases to be faced over the next few years. I understand the pressure which is being faced by middle income families in funding university education and I will find a solution. There are 2 other areas of education which need to have real focus. Firstly, there is the recent development in providing extra numeracy and literacy input into secondary schools. We must monitor the outcomes to ensure that pupils attain basic skills. Secondly, while great store is placed on good exam results and being able to gain places at universities, I believe that there is a need to have a review of outcomes when students have concluded their higher education. Jersey's Youth Service is highly rated and we need to extend its offering and availability. Many Parishes now have partnership agreements with the Youth Service and I will work with the remaining Parishes to conclude more agreements with them. By providing activities for young people to do, especially what they want to do, is one of the ways to ensure youth offending is minimised. The success of the Youth Service and the activities such as the football evenings, which ran at Les Quennevais in the winter and on the beach in the summer, has demonstrated the real value of such activities, with reported incidents of vandalism and misbehaviour by young people much reduced when these schemes are running. As a keen sportsman myself, I appreciate the importance of sport to our Island. I am proud of our excellent sports facilities, though I would wish to see dedicated facilities for gymnastic clubs provided, and, of course, Fort Regent will need a major refurbishment in the not too distant future. The Fort needs to be our sports centre of excellence, revitalised by providing high-speed access from Snow Hill so everyone can easily enjoy not just the facilities at the Fort but also its history and wonderful views

it offers. I will work with other Ministers to find a solution for Fort Regent, especially the access. Jersey is hoping to be chosen as a training base by some of the competitors for the London Olympics 2012 and I will encourage this, as well as supporting the bid for Jersey to host the Island Games again in 2015. We last hosted the Games in 1997, and, as one of the major medal winners at every Games, we are now rightly being looked at to offer to host the Games again. "C" in E.S.C. is no less important than the "E" and the "S". In fact, culture is all around us. It is part of all our lives. We will have to find a solution about how we are to maintain and enhance our historical and cultural heritage. Sharing our culture with visitors to our Island is something I would really like to develop and I would want to work together with Economic Development to achieve that. Elizabeth Castle will need serious investment at some time in the future and also the leases and maintenance of the Jersey Opera House and St. James need to be finally resolved. I also want to build on the

citizenship curriculum that has been established in our schools, to ensure all our young people grow up with a good knowledge and understanding of our Island. Jersey has been fortunate in having such a good education service, but we must not rest on our laurels and we can improve. I believe passionately in ensuring our young people have access to a best possible start in their life and I believe I can contribute to this as Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. There is no better investment a society can made in education because it improve social mobility. Giving young people the best start in life and giving all Islanders the opportunity to reach their full potential, has to be one of our main priorities. I know I could make a difference and I do hope you will agree and support me. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Thank you, Senator. The period of questioning will begin.

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Does the candidate recognise the important community contribution played by even the smallest school extends far beyond education and will he ensure that this is given full recognition in his policies, in his targeting of capital projects, and, certainly, if school closure ever becomes an issue?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, the Constable of St. Mary makes a very valid point. The issue that the Education Service is going to face is falling rolls and we need to find an appropriate method of dealing with that. I certainly do recognise the value of Parish schools and I would want to ensure that we are able, if possible, to maintain those because they are certainly of high value.

2. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier :

When the Senator was defeated in his attempt to get the position of Minister for Health and Social Services yesterday, I heard mutterings amongst his Ministerial colleagues: "You will have to go for Education." I would like to know the real reason why the Senator is standing for Minister for Education, Sport and Culture.

Senator P.F. Routier:

About a couple of months ago I was thinking about what I would like to do when I decided to move from Social Security, and it was a voluntary thing to move from Social Security. I believe I need a new challenge and I really thought long and hard about which one I would like to do, whether it be Health or Education. I came to the conclusion that Health would be the priority that I would want to do and obviously Senator Perchard has been successful in that and now I believe that I can offer the States and Members and the Island my skills to help the Education Service move to the next stage. We need to improve Education along and to move it along and I believe I can do that and I can achieve that.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

The Senator has made mention of Fort Regent. If elected, what plans would the Senator have for the Fort Regent swimming pool, which is degrading by the week?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, I am very aware that Fort Regent's swimming pool is degrading. I can recall going to the opening of the pool, well, the day before it opened was my wedding day and I recall having a chat with my best man in the pool and discussing things with him about the wedding. Sorry, I am digressing. But certainly we need to find a solution for the pool. The reason we closed it: it was degrading and degrading and degrading. I recognise the regeneration of Fort Regent is a high priority and obviously the pool will be part of that.

4. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier :

If elected, would the Senator consider creating an internet university in Jersey for the likes of people that cannot afford to go to the U.K. (United Kingdom) and also some people who choose not to leave the Island?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I believe that is a very good idea. Certainly I think that is something that the Economic Development Department, along with the Highlands College, have been considering as an option for increasing education learning within the Island. I recognise there are people who do not want to leave the Island to get further education and that is why I recognise that the development of the degree courses which have started at Highlands are an excellent progression and also the foundation courses which have been put in place. We need to see more of those foundation courses in things like tourism, in IT and all those sorts of areas. I think we could enhance our education service quite dramatically by doing that.

5. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

A question as regards higher education; does the Senator agree that there is a section of society in Jersey who are denied access to higher education who may not qualify for grants or financial assistance, but due to their parents' unwillingness to pay or inability to pay are denied access to higher education, and does he see that as a problem?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The grants system is something that does need to be reviewed. We are going to have to look at that very closely, especially if the negotiations with the U.K. are not very successful and we will probably have to take a fresh look at all of the gateways to gaining grants to be able to go to higher education. There is a recognition that perhaps the rules do need to be adjusted to ensure that there are no barriers for people to gain access, especially if they have limited financial means. I understand there are some mechanisms where families are .. perhaps where they are split that one party, one side of the family are not contributing. I do not believe that is appropriate. We should be looking at the whole financial situation and try and avoid that happening.

6. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

I understand that the 2005 Cultural Strategy has been adopted in principle and is seen by some as a Cinderella of the portfolio. Does the Senator consider Culture sits comfortably alongside Education and Sport and how would he take the Cultural Strategy forward over the next 3 years?

Senator P.F. Routier:

When it was decided to include Education and Culture and Sport and Culture together, there was a big debate about that, whether that was the appropriate thing to do. It was recognised that we needed to find a home for it. But, as I said in my speech, I believe that culture is within us, it is here. The whole Island is culture. So there needs to be a Minister that has responsibility for it and I think, being that education is all about trying to instil belonging within the Island and being part of the culture, I think that it can sit well within Education, Sport and Culture and it does not need to be the Cinderella at all. I think that we obviously need to -- I have not been as closely involved as Deputy Labey has been, or as the Deputy of Grouville has been, but certainly I would welcome her input into helping to move that forward. I would need to look at it more closely.

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Is the candidate prepared to express an interest in the Housing portfolio?

Senator P.F. Routier: Certainly not.

8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

The recent events in Jersey have meant that the visiting youth from outside of the Island are requiring an alternative location. Some suggestions have been made as to where they might possibly go. If elected would the Senator undertake to investigate whether or not somewhere like the Fort Regent Swimming Pool could be utilised by the youth who visit the Island, as it is currently not being used at all?

Senator P.F. Routier:

There are opportunities for the whole of Fort Regent and I can recall when I was on the Sports, Leisure and Recreation Committee there was a plan that was put forward for a hotel for people to come and take part in the sports and a hotel which is associated next to the sports facilities. The building itself of the swimming pool is in such disrepair. I do not know if people have been in it recently but I had the opportunity to go in during last year and it is really in such a bad state and I do not believe there is a lot that could happen with it for it to be regenerated, really. I think it would really need to have a rebuild and have something appropriate which is in association with the Fort.

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

How would the candidate deal with the education of those who have been excluded from school and all those, who, for one reason or another have fallen behind their contemporaries?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The decision to exclude somebody from school  is something that I think is taken very, very seriously. What needs to happen is that the mechanism needs to be that there is something to support those young people who are falling out of the system. There has been a great deal of work in a couple of the secondary schools, which are putting more help and more emphasis and trying to support them in greater than just the ordinary teaching setting. I know that has happened in a couple of the secondary schools. With regard to ones that have been excluded, there are units which do support people. It is the old d'Hautrée School. I am not sure if it is still there, honestly, but I know that the unit there has been very successful in helping excluded pupils and to help them to get back into the system again. But we do need to invest in children who may have been excluded and we need to perhaps avoid them being excluded in the first place, to try and support them within their environment.

10. Senator A. Breckon:

I wonder if Senator Routier would like to comment how he sees negotiations with the United Kingdom developing on university fees and how that fits with parental contributions that might be required locally?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, I think I touched upon that a little bit earlier. Certainly the negotiations are in a critical position at the present time. I know there have been communications between the U.K. Government regarding the way fees are put together. The issue is, I think, some of the letters that I have had sight of have included other matters which are related to our position, our connection with other negotiations with the U.K. Government. So we are trying to use levers to ensure that we get the best deal for all Jersey, to ensure that hopefully we can come out of it on the right side. But the second point about the Deputy 's question about parental contribution is something which does need to be looked at. I am very concerned about those obviously with middle incomes who are finding it really tough to pay the increased fees at the current time and we need to come to an equitable solution which makes it fair so that there are no barriers for any students who do want to increase their education on the mainland.

11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

The candidate expressed the importance of citizenship. The right to vote was extended to the 16 and 17 year-olds, yet no provision was given to educating these new voters. Does the candidate agree that provision must be made to educate these voters and what should this include?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, going through the last election process, it was a disappointment that the hustings we went to at Hautlieu unfortunately did not materialise into anything of what we were hoping it was going to be. So certainly I would like to see the opportunity for having greater involvement with the schools during election time. This whole election process does need to be explained to young people to ensure that they do have the opportunity to participate. But it needs to start earlier than that. I think we need to see that the education curriculum does now include children coming into the States Assembly and sitting in our seats and having debates, which is, I think, very, very good. So it needs to be a process going through all the years to ensure that they do keep up their understanding of the electoral process. But certainly I would hope that we can do it better at the next election time to ensure that we do gain the input of the younger generation within the election process.

12. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

Our town secondary schools carry a heavy burden. At 14 and 16 a large number of students go on to Hautlieu. What support could go into enabling the secondary schools to meet the needs of pupils that are still in our secondary schools?

Senator P.F. Routier:

When we get on to helping students to gain their exam results, there needs to be a combination, I believe, of availability of education, even across the Catholic schools, Hautlieu, the secondary schools, I believe they should all be working a lot closer together to ensure that a wide provision is available for individual students because what I understand in the past is that were times when, because the student was going to a particular school they might miss out on a course that is going on at another school. We need to ensure that students are able to share resources across the schools and have arrangements with the Catholic schools, secondary schools and Hautlieu to ensure that the education division is open to everybody to access.

13. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

I heard the Senator talk about the Youth Service and activities to keep people off the streets. Is he sufficiently aware that the Youth Service is a professional educational service? Indeed, all my former colleagues, though a small team, had to attend university just as a teacher. If elected thus, would he commit to pushing for an adequate resource funding to allow professional youth workers to deliver that education in support of the former system? Thank you.

Senator P.F. Routier:

I certainly would because I believe that the Youth Service is a vital part of our community provision. I have taken part and helped in a youth club in a very, very small way and I know the benefits there are for the young people and also for the community as a whole. I wholeheartedly support all the youth service work that goes on in the Island and in particular the way that the Youth Service has included people with learning disabilities within their groups. It has been tremendous the way that that has worked really, really well and it is now a very inclusive service and I give my wholehearted support to ensuring that the Youth Services are given the resources that it needs.

The Bailiff :

Deputy Duhamel, do you want to ask your question?

14. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

I have not asked any questions yet but I would like to ask one, yes. Exercise and sport have generally been squeezed out of the curriculum except for the most able students. How would the Senator move to promote the greater take-up of physical education for healthy bodies as well as healthy minds?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I thank the Deputy for that question. I think it is vitally important that we do that. I always regret the way there has been a decline in the physical activity within schools. It is something that I believe that encourages .. I am a team player. I believe team sports are very good. I believe competition is very good and I think it creates a person .. it gives them the fight to get on in life, to be able to take part in sport. So, as far as I am concerned, I believe that we should try and get sport back into the curriculum.

15. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Would the candidate affirm equal opportunities commitment for all our young people, whether they be children or going in to adulthood? Thank you.

Senator P.F. Routier:

I certainly do. I believe equal opportunities for all students, whatever their ability, needs to be in place. People with varying abilities need support from people who attend Mont à l'Abbé School, from Bel Royal School and through to high achievers. We need to ensure that we have an appropriate education service. Education is the be all and end all, as far as the future of the Island is concerned. We need to ensure that our education service is able to support our community to ensure that our future is in safe hands.

16. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :

What provision would the Senator make for educating the educators in our culture to enable them to teach better the citizenship programme introduced in the schools?

Senator P.F. Routier:

The curriculum for citizenship is obviously very new and I realise that we do have perhaps some teachers who come from outside the Island who do need to be able to understand the way our culture is and the way we work in our Island. We would need to put in a programme to ensure that they themselves, the teachers (I agree with you entirely) have the right skills to pass on the culture and citizenship values that we hold. If we hold those values, I think we must ensure that our children are able to hold those values.

17. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : The candidate has made mention .. there you go.

The Bailiff :

Sorry, Deputy , beaten by the bell. Now, I ask Senator Routier to withdraw to the Blampied Room, please, accompanied by an officer of the States Greffe and I ask the usher or officer to bring the Deputy of St. Ouen from the Le Capelain Room.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Could I in this short interval point out, and having noted that the Constables are absent from this House, and I believe your ruling yesterday was that despite the swearing in of Roads Committees their first duty was this House. They seem to have made up their minds.

The Bailiff :

The swearing in of Centeniers rather than of Roads Committees, Deputy . But that is a matter for the Connétable , I think.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

But you did point out yesterday that their first duty was to this Assembly.

The Bailiff :

I think I said that if there was a choice to be made then obviously the Connétable should attend the Assembly here and certainly if there were a risk of the Assembly becoming inquorate, that might become important. But happily we are well quorate at the moment. If the Deputy of St. Ouen has caught his breath I will now call upon him to address the Assembly.

2. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

Education is the main foundation of any society and is one of the most important areas that the States invest in. It should not simply be regarded as time spent at school or university. It is a perpetual and ongoing process which never ends. I care passionately about education and want to provide the very best for our young people. I am totally committed to ensuring the department continues to make an important contribution to the Island's overall education. Having run my own successful business for many years, I understand the leadership role. Together with the responsibility that goes with it, I relish the opportunity to become the new Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. As Minister, I will actively seek the views of all those involved, rather than rely solely on the advice of department officers. Over the last 6 years I have gained much experience in all aspects of government and would like to be given the opportunity to put that to good use. I want to maximise the potential of each individual and will work with all partners to ensure that the services provided meet the needs of the whole community. We have much to be proud of but this is not the time to be complacent. Although many of our students are reaching a high level of academic achievement, more attention must be given to the needs of students and other individuals more suited to the practical skills. I want to develop a new careers information system which not only keeps track of the achievements of graduates and other individuals who have left the Island but notifies them of local job opportunities as they become available. This should help skilled local people to return to the Island and contribute to our economy. I want to see more emphasis given to vocational and apprenticeship schemes aimed at providing greater access for jobs for those under 25. The present efforts of both the Economic Development and Education Departments need to be harnessed if we are to develop a comprehensive service for those seeking fulltime employment. Although the overall standard of numeracy and literacy in our school population is relatively high, more needs to be done. If this is to be addressed, difficulties must be identified at the earliest opportunity in order that remedial help can be provided. Waiting until students leave school is not the answer. I want to help those with special needs access  meaningful employment. These individuals deserve better and more effort is required if we are to make real improvements in this area. I believe it is vital that all 3 to 4 year-olds should have access to early years' education. I will meet with the Jersey Childcare Trust and other stakeholders as soon possible to ensure that the service offered can meet the needs of both the children and parents alike. The current annual cost of sending students to university is approximately £18 million. Next year university fees are due to be renegotiated and I will work with the Islands of Guernsey and the Isle of Man in order to achieve the best deal possible for those wanting to access higher education. I am pleased that during the budget debate a commitment was given by the Minister for Treasury and Resources to carry out a review in conjunction with the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, aimed at identifying proposals to mitigate the increased costs faced by parents with children in higher education. It is my hope that I can be involved in that process. One of my first priorities will be to improve the focus on young people. Some of the commitments made in the last Strategic Plan have been less than effective and more needs to be done. Young people are willing to play a part in policy development, as demonstrated by the involvement in the recent Imagine Jersey event and this has to be built on. I will work with both the schools and the Youth Service to develop a more inclusive youth forum, as it is only right that they have their say in how the future is shaped. Parishes, equally, have an important role to play if the department is to meet the needs of our young people

and encourage them to play a greater part in our community. It is only by working together that we can properly identify the services required and offer the right form of support. Our young people should not be considered a nuisance but a valuable and important asset. In rural areas, the local primary school is a key element in aiding the development of the community. I will do all in my power to protect this most important resource. Over the last year I have become increasingly aware that the most vulnerable in our community need to be properly protected and catered for. I fully support the work of the Child Protection Committee and welcome all the proposed improvements to the current approach in caring for children and young adults. I see the department playing a lead role in ensuring greater accountability and providing an improved response to the needs of these individuals. My aim will be to build on the good practices already in place and address the perceived lack of joint working between schools, the Youth Action Team and the Children's Service. I will work closely with all those involved to introduce clearly defined roles and responsibilities for each corporate partner. With the help of the chairperson of the Jersey Child Protection Committee, I aim to implement the recommendations contained in the Williamson Report, in order that improvements can be made for the future provision of this service. Sport is an important area covered by the department and much has been accomplished in this area. We should be rightly proud of the achievements of our sports men and women, both on and off Island. I look forward to working with the organising committee, who are seeking to prepare a bid for the 2015 Island Games. Physical activity is an equally important element or perhaps the most important element in a child's development and I aim to make sure that sufficient time is dedicated to this subject within the school curriculum. The impact of culture on our everyday lives cannot be underestimated. It defines who we are and where we have come from. My aim will be to develop a greater sense of pride in our island and broader appreciation of our history and heritage. Tourism derives much benefit from our diverse selection of historic buildings and I aim to work with the Minister for Economic Development to promote our rich cultural heritage to both Islanders and visitors alike. Our cultural estate, however, has been somewhat neglected and this needs to be

addressed if these buildings are to be preserved for future generations. This cannot be done without capital investment. Gorey Castle is a good example of how targeted investment cannot only improve the quality of the site but increase footfall and income. Funding pressures still remain a concern for properties such as St. James and the Opera House and I will be discussing this and other property matters with the Treasury and Property Holdings in order to secure long-term solutions for this problem. Today children are the future generation and, as such, deserve the best education we can provide. I will engage with all head teachers, teachers and parent/teachers associations so that our schools continue to deliver the high standard of education that we have all come to expect. The Island is extremely fortunate to have an excellent range of public schools and privately-run facilities where top-quality education is provided. With a proposal to develop a university centre, a secondary education offering a more varied curriculum, and opportunities to further develop a local skills base, the Island should be well-placed to meet the challenges of the future. I do not underestimate the size of the task ahead and I fully appreciate the demands of the job. I have much to give and hope that Members will allow me to undertake this challenging role.

1. Deputy S. Pitman:

Does the Deputy believe that we have education: political, cultural and historical, local education in schools and youth services? If he does not, could he tell us how he would go about improving that?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think that we are making advances in all of the areas that you have mentioned. I think one of the great successes in recent times has been the Citizenship Programme. And I believe that there is far more that is able to be done in this area. I have been part of that programme and taken part in it. I also think that by encouraging our young people to meet with States Members and other individuals and link in with Deputies they, too, will begin to start understanding and putting faces and people to the words that they are taught in the schools.

2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

If elected, what would the Member do about inclusivity of all in education?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think that we are and do provide presently an inclusive education system. I think that there are areas where we can improve. I think one area that we have made, and should be very proud of, is the area where we address the individuals with learning disabilities and special needs. Where we let them down, and seriously let them down, is that once they leave school, we abandon them.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

The Deputy will recall that over the last days much has been said regarding traffic, especially schools' traffic. If elected, would the Deputy undertake to work with Transport and Technical Services and other ministries to alleviate this problem?

The Deputy of St. Ouen : Yes.

4. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

It has been apparent that Jersey has not been able to promote a local person to head our Youth Service. What steps will the Minister be taking to ensure to remedy the problem?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I hope I have indicated in my speech that part of the solution to this problem, because we do know and we are aware, many of us, that there are individuals that have left the Island, gained their extra, additional qualifications and experience, local people, who have a genuine desire to return to the Island. The problem is that they are relatively unaware of the opportunities that exist. I absolutely aim to encourage and develop systems that draw these people back to the Island, and, at the same time, ensure that the proper training and the attention placed on encouraging others to climb the ladder, as it were, is properly addressed. Thank you.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

How would the candidate deal with the education of those who have been excluded from school and all those, who, for one reason or another, have fallen behind their contemporaries? I am not referring here to special needs.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think the first thing is to get to the root of the problem. All too much and at many times we place a lot of emphasis, obviously, on the State providing support for the individuals. But we have to look behind that. We have got to find out why these individuals are not being engaged. We need to speak to parents. We need to encourage parents to play an active role. We need to be prepared to listen to their concerns. It is pointless using, if you like, education as a sticking plaster to dealing with the more root causes. I think, as I said, if anything, I would want to engage properly with parents and consider, as I say, the underlying the causes of the problems. Then we can properly address it.

6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Deputy of St. Ouen knows that the Jersey cow is an important part of our culture, one that we have been able to count upon in the past. How would he see us being able to count upon that in the future so that we do not see the dog end days of agriculture? How would he integrate that with the children's need to learn about animals in Jersey?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think that we make quite a number of efforts in engaging the children in all sorts of environmental areas. The one thing that disappoints me, and is a point I believe I raised in my speech regarding appropriate vocational and apprenticeship training schemes, is we spend a lot of time concerned about the state of our agricultural and other industries on the Island, and yet I ask myself how are we ensuring that that future is protected. I am perhaps a strange individual insofar as my father was not involved in agriculture at all. It was a genuine desire, driven I think from my heart, to get involved in that industry that drove me forward. I was fortunate that I could access training from various sources to improve my experience and my ability to start up on my own. I would encourage others to think about that. Why should careers in agriculture and other areas be classed as second class?

7. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence :

How does the Deputy propose to resolve the issue of escalating university fees against the ability of middle Jersey to pay these fees? Would the Deputy consider student loans as a replacement for parental contributions?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

This is a massive area which I only briefly touched on prior to our budget debate. I think there are a number of tools in the toolbox that perhaps we can use. More importantly, I think that firstly we need to properly - and collectively with Guernsey and the Isle of Man - review how we are considered and what contributions we are required to pay for university courses in the U.K. I think there is more to be done and I would be pretty robust in my attitude to ensuring that where possible we should be negotiating downwards from the present position rather than upwards. The second area that I think we will have to look at is parental contributions. We also have a form of student loan already in place regarding the top-up fees. If we are to enable everyone to access education and higher education, we will perhaps need to review that whole area.

8. Senator B.E. Shenton:

I was tempted to ask how he intends to convince the Constables he is the right person for the job. [Laughter] The previous Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, in my personal opinion, did not get the best out of his Assistant Ministers because he did not delegate properly and give them specific powers. Do you plan to give your Assistant Ministers specific powers and let them get on with the job? Have you any idea who your Assistant Ministers might be?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I fully appreciate that I cannot fulfil my role without proper support. Absolutely I will be wanting not only to engage the Assistant Ministers and give them proper authority and power in particular areas, but I also want to engage the Constables and all the Deputies and, in fact, Scrutiny, because everybody has a part to play. If we are going to deal with issues for our young people, it is not just James Reed and a couple of other States Members that are going to do it. It is going to need a concerted effort by all parties. That is the vision, if you like, that I have. I want to include everybody and I want to work collectively with everybody to really improve and provide the services that we all want to provide.

9. Senator A. Breckon:

The Deputy of St. Ouen mentioned in his speech about supporting young people who may have problems in achieving in education. I wonder if he would like to comment on how important he sees an alternative curriculum for those who are not exam-focused.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think that is, as I briefly mentioned in my speech, absolutely important. We are very good and we measure success based on academic performance. I do not believe that that alone is good enough. We need to be developing every individual's potential. I am well aware, I have 3 children of my own with all different abilities, but they equally all need to be supported. They need to be encouraged. I think that in some respects we are responsible for not addressing the needs of young people who fall out of school. We do need to bring in and focus on a far more practical alternative curriculum that picks up these people. I have a great friend of mine who is a farmer. I am sure he would not mind me saying he is totally dyslexic and would not understand figures at all. However, he is brilliant at repairing tractors and growing crops. If he can do it, we should encourage that model in every individual so that they can succeed in areas they are good at.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

We are having some rather long answers. We were pretty efficient yesterday, I think.

The Bailiff :

I think it would be helpful to Members if you could be a little bit ..

10. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can the candidate assure us of his total commitment to equality in education and will he actively pursue anti-discrimination policies, including that of sexual orientation?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

As far as I am aware, we do not discriminate in our schools over sexual orientation or any other area. I absolutely do not support any form of discrimination. I think that every individual who lives on the Island and contributes to our economy and our community, more  importantly, is properly supported.

11. Deputy J.B. Fox:

Would the Deputy affirm equal opportunities commitments for all our young people and young adults?

The Deputy of St. Ouen : Yes.

12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

We expect all our children to learn how to read at school, but should all students also be expected to learn how to read music and express their musical ability by learning to play an instrument, or should it be the priority to the musically gifted?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Music and the arts need to be included in part of the curriculum. I enjoy music and I think that it is an area that we need to ensure people are able to participate in and, in fact, should be encouraged for people to participate in.

13. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I am glad to hear that the Deputy has already touched on citizenship. The right to vote was extended to 16 and 17 year-olds, yet no provision was given to educate these new voters. Does the candidate agree that provision must be made to educate these new voters and what should this include, as debate alone is not enough?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I suppose the short answer is education and involvement. I think this is where my views on developing a youth forum which is meaningful and inclusive will help. I think that we were wrong not to properly consider the implications of lowering the age of voting to 16 without attending to understanding how government in our Island works.

14. The Deputy of Grouville :

We have one of the highest percentages of working women in the western world in this Island, more from need than desire. During the last ministry I put forward an idea for the school day to be extended to those that wanted to, whereby schoolchildren could be taught life skills, participate in more sport, possibly being taught cooking by senior citizens, and including many people in our society to enhance the richness of education and also help parents who are struggling to work with the ..

The Bailiff :

The question, please, Deputy .

The Deputy of Grouville :

.. the school hour finishing at 3.00 p.m. or 3.30 p.m. How would the Deputy proceed? Would he be willing to take this idea forward? Because I do not think it has been thus far.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Absolutely I am willing to consider any ideas that are brought forward. In fact, I am well aware that in certain private establishments they have a much longer school day and provide for additional benefits and opportunities that the Deputy of Grouville has spoken about. So, absolutely, totally, I would be quite happy to pursue that idea.

15. Deputy A.E. Jeune :

Would the Deputy support the teaching of our native language, Jerriais, in our schools, particularly our primary schools?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Yes, and it is already happening. I am very encouraged to know and learn that more and more of our young children want to learn the language.

16. Senator T.J. Le Main:

A very simple question: the general public have asked me to ask the candidate whether he would consider further education for States Members. [Laughter]

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

If I was the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, I would expect that. [Laughter]

17. The Deputy of Trinity :

Our town secondary schools carry a heavy burden. Between 14 and 16 a large number of students go up to Hautlieu. What support could go into enabling those secondary schools to meet the needs of the pupils?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I would be wrong at this moment in time to come up with all the conclusions. I am well aware that there are issues and I will be aiming, as part of my role, to address this particular area.

18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Deputy was a hawkish member of the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General has identified savings. What budget is the candidate seeking, the same, less or more?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Yes, I have been a member of the Public Accounts Committee and, yes, I fully support accountability and efficiency wherever and whatever service is being delivered. I will encourage the department to not only be efficient but demonstrate how we deliver services and the cost. If obviously I identify areas which need additional expenditure, I will not be frightened with clear evidence to come to this Assembly and ask for those funds. At the same time, I will not accept inefficiency and wastage.

19. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Currently, schools are inspected by a peer group review arrangement. Would the candidate accept independent inspections from the Independent Schools Inspectorate and would he be prepared to publish the reports?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I believe in accountability and it is one area that I want to develop. I want to remove the view that all services are inefficient and useless. I think that if any area or any individual or department or group of people can help me to achieve that aim I will consider it.

The Bailiff :

I ask a member of the Greffe staff or the usher to take the Deputy of St. Ouen to the Blampied Room, please, and to retrieve the next candidate.

Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John : Could I ask a question, Sir?

The Bailiff : Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

I noticed that some Members managed to get 2 questions in and others did not have a chance to get one in, although I did get your eye. Is there a particular order?

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I am very sorry, I did not catch your eye.

The Deputy of St. John : Oh, I thought you had.

The Bailiff :

So I did not have your name down on the list, I am afraid. I shall look at you ..

Senator T.J. Le Main:

A good thing that the Deputy of St. John does not ask any questions. [Laughter]

The Bailiff :

I shall look at the Deputy of St. John as often as I can. [Laughter] Deputy Martin.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

For those who do not know who Deputy Martin is, I have been a Deputy for nearly 9 years. I did work on the Education Committee before we went to Ministerial, and other committees. I did say at the time if I was elected Minister or an Assistant Minister I would spend the first year sitting in the Education Department. This was to find out exactly what went on from bottom to top. I knew what went on at the top, but I needed to know more. In Scrutiny, I worked on many reports and sat on 2 panels. Apparently, I have worked with all the chairmen except Deputy Duhamel: on long- term care, telecoms, the role of the Centenier in the Magistrates Court, population, I chaired the Income Support Panel, and there are many others. All who have worked with me know I do not just stick to subjects that I know. That is why I took on the bull semen review. Now I know more about the Jersey cow than I care to know. [Laughter] I have decided to stand for the position of Education, Sport and Culture because I thought if I had applied for health you might have thought it was just for Christmas. Seriously, I am not standing just for an election. I had been asked by Senator Shenton if he was to become Minister for Education, Sport and Culture would I think of taking the job of Assistant Minister, and we discussed what that would involve. I would have very much liked to have worked with him, but as somebody once said - and it has been said many times - we are where we are.  I know the States, and the Island as a whole, places great importance on providing high-quality education and learning opportunities for all people in Jersey, and we pride ourselves on achieving very good academic results. This is all great news, but when I have asked questions on how many of our Island's children leave school at 16 with no qualifications, the previous Minister for Education, Sport and Culture has replied to me: "Oh, there is only very few." I think he quoted about 10 with no qualifications over a 3-year period. Did I ask the right question? How many of our kids do not make it to 16? Just drop out of the system? The reply, if this question had been asked, would have been very different. As I say, what we are doing for our kids who do achieve good results and go on to further education or university is excellent. I want to know are we doing enough for those who cannot or do not want to follow this line of education? Again, I discussed this with Senator Shenton and he felt I could play a part on the education side. This was to really get to the bottom of this problem and see where there is a need for early intervention and advice for these teenagers who I say are being failed by our system. I would want to look again at the newly formed Skills Executive. In my opinion - and not just mine, our adviser when we looked at it, Mr. Rod Kenyon, who has advised the U.K. Government - it is too top heavy. We have the Education budgets reporting to the Minister for Economic Development and it is all down at Social Security. He basically said: "You could not make this up." It is all too confusing for the size of our population. So, as I say, I want to know it is fit for purpose and it delivers to the kids, and not only the kids, people who maybe now need to retrain. This needs to be done. If I was successful in getting the ministry, I would put this as one of my top priorities and work closely with Economic Development. We have had a reading recovery scheme in our primary schools since 1993 helping over 1,000 children. They have benefited: 30 teachers working in all our 22 primary schools with an 82 per cent success rate. It starts at the age of 6, but I have no idea if it is good compared to other places. Is it good compared to the amount we put into our nursery classes, our small student/teacher ratio? I need to find this out. I certainly would want to find out what happens to the 18 per cent who are not helped by the programme. If they continue to lack basic reading skills, they will find it hard through the rest of their educational experience and will be the ones who drop out and are not bothering to turn up after the age of 14. Highlands do not have a pilot scheme for vocational skills, but it has been mentioned and we cannot duck this. The head of Highlands has said he could do a lot more with these teenagers if they came to him with at least basic reading and numeracy skills. This is something we have to address. The Comptroller and Auditor General said we should look at closing one of our Parish schools, and shock, horror, well didn't that go round the Assembly. Only 6 years ago we shut St. Mark's School down. I think some people forget St. Helier is a Parish and St. Mark's was one of its Parish schools. Not a problem, we sent everybody up to d'Auvergne. But we really will have to look at this. We are building homes in St. Helier; that is a debate for another day. So if other primary Parish schools want to stay open and have a full intake, the States will have to find a way to get young children, many of whom's parents will be on low incomes and will probably have no transport, from town into country Parish schools. I think Trinity is doing this and they are doing it well. The States cannot justify building more primary schools in town and keep uneconomical undersized-classes schools open in the Parishes. This will have to be addressed. Knowing the Constables, I am sure they can work with the Education Department or the Minister, whoever that will be, to find an innovative way of getting their schools full. I do not expect them personally to supply more children in the Parish, but that would be one innovative way. [Laughter] I make it clear I am not the Minister, if elected, who wants to shut primary schools in the country Parishes, but they really

do need to thrive. I have heard it from many Constables that this is not happening, so we need to sort this one out. Sports and leisure, again I have asked many questions on how much sports activities our children have in school. It is not what it would appear. After getting to the lesson and changing at both ends of the hour allocated, they are getting about 35 minutes twice a week. I would like to see Education work with outside clubs and let them use the school gym or hall after school. Education have many excellent sports facilities and they are not fully utilised, while some clubs and associations struggle to find premises. They should be encouraged to help children from the school. This could be done in numerous ways: small charges for the club association if they take the child or free if the children cannot pay, and low income families not being stopped from taking these classes because of cost. This leads me neatly into our Active Card scheme. There is only one membership. I have looked at many local authorities in the U.K. and they have different price lists for the over-65s, single parent families, families on low income and the unemployed. They are all catered for but, as I say, they pay what they can afford. We need to encourage more people to use our Active clubs at gyms and keep fit classes, swimming, and make it affordable and an enjoyable leisure activity for all. That is if we really take seriously tackling obesity in Jersey. We must help the kids and their families play a full part in getting fit and we will only do this if it is affordable and there is no stigma involved when you go for your membership. Education have now set up the scheme of 20 free hours nursery provision, 38 weeks a year, due to start in September 2009. In the implementation stage, any Minister for Education, Sport and Culture must keep a close eye on this to see it delivers what the working parents want. If elected, I will want this scheme closely monitored over the next few years and make sure the S.L.A. (service level agreement) is being stuck to. Culture. We have an Island-wide culture strategy, but what has it achieved? It was given very little money and I really question whether it is in the right ministry. I think it should be moved to Economic Development as part of event-led tourism. I think it would thrive there. An Assistant Minister across Health and Education has been mentioned. I think this is an excellent idea. I have discussed it with the Minister-elect for Health and Social Services, a clearly defined job, access to both of these departments, reporting lines clear, where the children can go where everybody knows who this person is. I think this is one way we can implement the Williamson Report and other reports we have had and get the vulnerable children of Jersey catered

for.

The Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . The Question Time begins. Deputy of St. John .

1. The Deputy of St. John :

Our primary school in St. John is in need of a playground that is not a car park for staff vehicles. What will you do if elected to this position to help the school achieve a playing field adjacent to the school?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

There are many schools in St. Helier and I can even think of one in St. Saviour that has a very small playground and will never have a green field. But where St. John 's School is situated I am sure this could be achieved if the money is there and the case is made. As I say again, the children at St. John , is there a playing field nearby that is not utilised? I would be very surprised if there is not. It is not just a question of supplying one; is there one in the very near vicinity that can be used? Probably yes would be the answer.

2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

As the candidate is well aware, most of our students go to the United Kingdom for further education. There have been problems in recent times where the United Kingdom has treated most Crown dependencies as overseas territories and charged accordingly. These negotiations are, of course, ongoing. The previous Minister looked as far afield as Australia to solve this problem. If elected, what action would the candidate take to alleviate this problem?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

The previous Minister may have looked as far afield as Australia, and I think it is good if some of our students want to go there if they can afford it. Talking to the Education Director, there is a challenge over the next 3 years. If we want to make a mark on the U.K. Education Department and stand our ground, we need to work with Guernsey and the Isle of Man. I would fully support that. Sending students to Australia from here, the fare alone would be, to me, off-putting, but if students can afford it and they want to go there, by all means.

3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

My question is regarding citizenship. The right to vote was extended to 16 and 17 year-olds, yet no provision was given to educate these new voters. Does the candidate agree that provision must be made to educate these new voters and what should be included, as debate alone is not enough?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Unlike the previous Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, to have the hustings up at Hautlieu at 4.00 p.m. in the afternoon: absolutely stupid. The teenagers who could vote I would have given the afternoon off. I would have supplied coaches and I would have got that hall full. They would have gone. That is as much as I can say. Yes, they do need educating and they really have a good lot of ideas. Sometimes I think people do not want the 16 year-olds or even the younger people to vote. [Approbation]

4. Deputy S. Pitman:

If elected, how will the Deputy ensure affordable leisure facilities for all?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Hopefully, I covered that in my speech. As I say, our Active Card. We have just one membership, or you go with the begging bowl and you say: "I am on Income Support." I think there are a few free places. It is not rocket science. You pay what you can afford. Different sorts of membership, I have said it: over-65s, single parent families, unemployed. But they need an activity. A leisure or sport activity while you are not working is ideal. So, I would pursue this urgently.

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I am sure all other Members would agree with me, it is very pleasing to see a woman putting herself forward to the Chief Minister's all-inclusive Executive. My question is, if elected, what would the Deputy do to try and work with other departments to ensure that all those young people who are not cut out for finance have the best, widest range of opportunities possible to stay within the Island? [Approbation]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Again, it is the Skills Executive, getting to the children when they are failing early. I want to know who these children are. It is no good standing up in this House and, as much as I respected the last Minister for Education, Sport and Culture, he would not admit that there is a problem. We do have a problem and I want to do everything I can, get in early, find out. We need vocational. It is no disgrace if you do not want to go into finance or be a banker or an accountant or a surgeon; electricians, plumbers, even painters and decorators, whatever you want to do, if that is what you want. Some people die shrivelled up in an office. They do not want to do it [Laughter] and I would make sure .. there is lots of work to be done, that is all I can say.

6. Deputy M. Tadier :

My question regards higher education. I want to know should 18 year-olds, seeing as they major at that age - if that is the right word - have to rely on the financial positions of their parents or the willingness of their parents to send them to university?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, 18 year-olds, I think there are different degrees of what the parents earn. No, they are going on and they can get some help. As I say, the problem is where that money is going to come from. There is a real problem in the next 3 years if we do not get the right agreement with the U.K. universities. Over here, there is a very small grant if you take further education. Again, that could be looked at, but the majority of young students of 18 do live at home and it is just really to cover, I would say, basically a bit of pocket money for them. But they can work as well; work and learning can be done together.

7. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :

At peak times we have the most horrendous problem with traffic outside Grouville School. I would like to ask the Deputy , if she is elected, if she would contact me through my Parish honorary officers in order to try to come to some agreement. We have a contentious situation between Education and T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) at the moment where we cannot bridge the borders between the 2 departments. I am sure that if we have somebody in Education who is willing to talk and to sit down with us then we can come to a solution to this horrible problem.