States Meeting Transcript - 04/11/2009

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

WEDNESDAY, 4th NOVEMBER 2009

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption ...............................................................6

1. Draft Shops (Regulation of Opening and Deliveries) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.111/2009): second amendment........................................................................6

1. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement:........................................................6

1. Senator A. Breckon: .....................................................................8
2. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier:......................................................8
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:............................................................8
4. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement:..................................................9
5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:........................................................9
6. Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen:....................................................10

7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................10
8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................11
9. The Dean of Jersey:....................................................................12
10. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:..................................................13
11. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................13
12. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen : ......................................................14
13. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : .......................................................14
14. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:...................................................14
15. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:...................................................14
16. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : ............................................15
17. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : ..............................................15
18. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John:......................................................16
19. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................16
20. The Connétable of St. Saviour:......................................................17
21. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................17
22. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence:..........................................18
23. Deputy I.J. Gorst :....................................................................18

2. Draft Shops (Regulation of Opening and Deliveries) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.111/2009) - Article 4 as amended....................................................................21

1. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................21
2. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................21

3. Draft Shops (Regulation of Opening and Deliveries) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.111/2009) - Articles 5-11 and Schedules .............................................................22

1. The Connétable of St. Clement (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................23
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................23
3. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................23 Mr. T.J. Le Cocq Q.C., H.M. Attorney General Designate:...................................23

4. The Connetable of St. Clement:........................................................25

2. Committee of Inquiry into the Management of the Health and Social Services Department (P.145/2009) (re-issue).....................................................26

2.1 Senator A. Breckon (Chairman, Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel): .26

1. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................36
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................38
3. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................38

4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................39

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................41 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................41

PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumption..............................................................41

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................41
6. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................43
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................43
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................48
9. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.................................................................48
10. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..........................................................49
11. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................50
12. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................51
13. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................53
14. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................55
15. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................56 The Attorney General Designate:.............................................................56
16. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................57
17. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................59
18. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence : ..................................................64
19. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................64
20. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................66
21. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:..................................................67
22. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................68
23. Senator B.E. Shenton: ...............................................................68
24. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................69
25. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................70
26. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ..................................................72
27. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................72
28. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................74 The Connétable of St. Mary:..................................................................75

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................76

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

I missed the opportunity earlier, but I believe Senator Syvret is out of the Island seeking asylum in the U.K. (United Kingdom). [Laughter] [Approbation]

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I suppose he is going to be asked to be défaut excusé. [Laughter]

Deputy M. Tadier :

I believe Senator Le Main has already asked for défaut excusé, so I will be happy to second that.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I certainly have not; I can assure you. [Laughter]

The Deputy Bailiff : Members, is that a proposition?

Deputy M. Tadier : It is, Sir.

The Deputy Bailiff :

It is a matter for Members. Is it the wish of Members that Senator Syvret be

Senator J.L. Perchard: The appel.

The Deputy Bailiff :

The appel is called for. The proposition is to excuse Senator Syvret.

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I do not consider this a laughing matter. I think Senator Syvret's actions are discourteous, both to this House [Approbation] and to the electorate of this Island. I would ask the Privileges and Procedures Committee to look at the behaviour of the Senator, which I find totally unacceptable. [Approbation]

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I just add in response to that, it was not I who was laughing, I believe, when I stood up with the fairly serious proposition; it was other Members who laughed. I think it is necessary to air this matter.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you to Members. This is a matter not for today; it is a matter for the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee, if she wishes to take up that invitation. We now resume debate.

Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

I am sorry to interrupt you, Sir; I would just like to say, in my capacity as Chairman for the Privileges and Procedures Committee, and of course speaking personally as well, that I would like to welcome you, on the occasion of your first sitting in your new capacity as Deputy Bailiff , and of course  today  as  President  of  the  Assembly.   [Approbation]   I  hope  that  you  will  find  the perspective from your new seat agreeable [Laughter] and, in fact, even enjoyable on occasion.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Chairman, thank you very much for those comments. At the moment it is absolutely terrifying [Laughter] but I hope to inch my way towards the comfort zone. The debate will resume on

Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin :

Sir, I have to remind you also to look at this side of the Chamber. [Laughter] Yesterday morning I asked the Chief Minister if he would circulate the names or the details of the review panel to review the consultant gynaecologist at the hospital; I understood it was going to be circulated yesterday. Could I ask that if it is not circulated early this morning we maybe have it by the end of the day?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I would certainly hope so and I instructed my office yesterday morning to give the fuller details requested by the Deputy . As soon as those are completed they will be circulated. I apologise that they have not been circulated already.

The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

I will be going at lunch time today to license the new Prison Chaplain and Second Hospital Chaplain in a service at the hospital, both of which institutions are the responsibilities of this House and I wonder if I might take the greetings of the House to the Reverend Sally White, the new Prison Chaplain? [Approbation]

The Deputy Bailiff :

It is quite clear, Mr. Dean, you may do so.

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption

1. Draft Shops (Regulation of Opening and Deliveries) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.111/2009): second amendment

The Deputy Bailiff :

We will now resume debate on Article 4 of the Draft Shops (Regulation of Opening and Deliveries) (Jersey) Law 200- and there is an amendment in the name of Deputy Gorst . Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded]

The Greffier of the States:

Article 4(a): in paragraph (1) omit the words "Christmas Day"; (b) after paragraph (2) insert the following paragraph and renumber the remaining paragraphs accordingly - "(3) Regulations made under paragraph (1) may not include provision empowering the Minister, by Order, to designate Good Friday or Liberation Day as a special occasion for the purposes of this Law."

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded]

1. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement :

This is, in effect, 2 small amendments. If I try to clarify to Members the effect of the amendment, should they be approved. The first amendment is one which would in effect disallow shops to open on Christmas Day, apart from shops which are covered by the exempt transactions. I would have hoped to have been in a position to explain to Members exactly what that will mean; however, we heard the Assistant Minister yesterday say that perhaps he had in his mind to bring forward some changes to those shops which were able to offer exempt transactions, perhaps limiting the operations of post offices. So I cannot, with any certainty, say exactly what those exempt transaction shops will be, but I suspect that what will remain, or there will remain to be, an exemption for pharmacies, and probably along the lines, as we heard yesterday, with regard to the airport and the harbour because of the special operating conditions that they find themselves under. If Members approve the first part of my amendment, what that will mean is that they are the only shops which will be granted a permit to open on Christmas Day. The aim of both of my amendments is to protect and preserve the nature of 3 specific days. The first amendment's aim is to protect the character of Christmas Day. The second amendment is to go some way to protecting the character of Good Friday, and what I hope has become known as our National Day, that being Liberation Day. It is a fairly straightforward amendment. I suspect that Members will either agree or disagree with me; however, I cannot pass off the opportunity to make some comment on the comments from the Economic Development Department. While the Economic Development Department are not accepting my first amendment, I find it difficult to understand on what grounds it is that they are opposing it when they themselves report in their comments with regard to anecdote. They, on the one hand, say that there is not much demand, or there is very little demand; on the other hand, they say that people ought to have the right and ability to purchase necessities. What they do not go on to say is for how long they should have that right and ability. If you accept the argument that people, or individuals, ought to be able to go and buy forgotten necessities on Christmas morning, why should that stop at lunch time and not even flow through until the afternoon? After all, we know that different members of our society celebrate Christmas Day at different points during the day. Therefore, if I have forgotten my gravy browning in the morning, that might be suitable for somebody who is eating lunch at lunch time, but not perhaps for someone who has their Christmas dinner in the evening. Why is that important? Well, it is important because, as we discussed yesterday, there are a lot of workers within our community who work shift work, who serve the Island and its community on Christmas Day, and therefore they do

celebrate their main Christmas festivities at different parts throughout the day. One of the rationales that Economic Development are putting forward for not supporting this amendment is that people, as I have said, ought to be able to buy some necessities on Christmas morning. Yesterday, they put forward the rationale in opposition to Deputy Green's amendment that Islanders ought to be able to start sale shopping on Boxing Day, 26th December. So, in actual fact, the only rationale that I can see coming from the Economic Development Department, I am afraid that I have to say, is that shops should be open throughout the year and they are proposing that by opposing my amendment. We heard from the Chamber of Commerce that, of course, we should allow shops to open because people might have forgotten something as simple as their gravy browning. It is not for me to give cookery lessons in the Assembly, but I am sure that I am not the only individual when preparing a roast dinner that can cope without gravy browning; one uses the juice from the pan [Laughter] and perhaps adds some cornflour or even stock or even a stock cube. I am sure that members of the community are much more able to think on their feet than I am in that respect. Another point that I think I want to make in that regard is that not many years ago this Island was used to relying on and supporting each other in a neighbourly fashion. If individuals were falling short of something they asked their neighbour, or they asked another member of their family and they supplied and helped in time of need. I am not sure this acceptance of the need to have a convenience store open on Christmas morning, how we have got to that situation, rather than asking perhaps a family member who might be coming for dinner, or a neighbour, who I am sure would be only too willing to help in time of need. We heard yesterday that if individuals fall outside of those 2 categories they can always of course phone Deputy Fox, who will be only more than happy to supply them with a pint of milk. This amendment, I believe, will help protect the character of Christmas Day. As I have said, I suspect that Members will already have made up their mind; they will either think that is a backwards step, or it is a positive step to help protect at least one day. In effect, this will be the only day in the year afforded these extra protections. The Connétable of Trinity yesterday, in commenting upon Deputy Green's amendment, said that he, in common with all farmers, had to milk the cows on Christmas Day and some jobs must be undertaken. I am fully aware of that, being a farm boy. I, in earlier days, had late on a Christmas afternoon I was expected to go out and do my chores, be that feeding the calves or other activities around the farm. I am sure, however, in common with the Connétable of Trinity , I would rather not have had to do that and I would rather have been able to stay in front of the fire, enjoying my presents and eating more food. So, I am not sure that that is an argument for not protecting Christmas Day. As I have said earlier, I have experienced individuals who have had to work on Christmas Day, not that they have chosen, but they have joined a profession where it was expected, in the caring profession, and I well remember a number of occasions of having to put my Christmas Day on hold until those individuals were able to return home, sometimes very late at night, and then we celebrated Christmas into the evening. So, I do not believe that those examples of individuals who have to work on Christmas Day should be a rationale for us not protecting the day in relation to shops being open. If I briefly then move on to part (b), this quite simply would, if it is approved, disallow the Minister from making an order to declare a special occasion, thereby allowing the granting of a permit to a blanket permit to allow all shops to open. If Members accept this, those days will still be able to be treated as Sunday trading days. We will still be able to get our paper and the other shops that we come to decide to allow to open .. when we see the Regulations, they will still be able to open in that manner. As I have said, I hope that this will not be a long debate. I suspect that most Members have already made up their mind on these 2 particular amendments. I will be asking for them to be taken separately so that we can vote on (a) and (b). I

maintain the amendments. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

The amendment is proposed. The Deputy of Trinity , you still wish to second it, having heard the Deputy ? [Seconded]

1. Senator A. Breckon:

Just a couple of points. I should declare an interest; in the 1980s I probably worked I was on duty for 7 out of 10 Christmas Days and I can say it was no fun. Sometimes if you do get a call - I was at the gas company at the time - you do not see anybody else, you do not even see a dog, so there are not people around. What has come in most recently is some shops - convenience stores - have started to open on Christmas Day between 10.00 a.m. and 2.00 p.m. mainly, and I mentioned this yesterday. For those staff, many of them do not even have any transport, so they have to get there somehow. They either get picked up, and periodically I have seen people who have been working who are waiting outside at about 2.30 p.m. in the rain, having done the opening, and there were a few people using the shop who forgot the apple sauce or whatever it is. But I think if we look at the transcripts, anybody that has run out of something could probably go to Deputy Gorst . If they cannot eat there, he can give them a recipe for something or other or phone him up or get him on his BlackBerry, or whatever it may be, assuming he has still got one. But the thing is, I think this is a good marker because what it does, it says: "Hang on, that is enough. That is enough." It is a very special day and I hope the House will treat it in that respect because the commercial element is necessary, but with the frenzy leading up to Christmas it has perhaps got too commercialised and it is just a way of saying: "Well, hang on, we do know the shops are going to be closed." Most people now have a fridge and storage and whatever else. Nobody will go without. I think it is an apt measure to take and I do not think it is extreme because other measures for example, pharmacists are covered under another law. They have to open, somebody has to if requested, and we all understand why that could be. Also, the Licensing Law is a separate law and perhaps other laws are silent on this, but I think, in this case, reviewing this law, it is something I think that we need to reinforce and we need to do it now. That is why I welcome this amendment and I will be supporting it. Thank you.

2. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier :

It comes as no surprise that I will be supporting this amendment and much of what I was going to say has been said by Senator Breckon. Christmas Day is a special day; a special day when we celebrate the birth of Christ and a special day for families and I think it should remain so. We have seen creeping commercialisation over the years. I can remember as a child here when you would not have found a shop open on Christmas Day anywhere in the Island, other than the duty pharmacist who would be open for a couple of hours. I think it is right that we maintain that wherever possible. Just out of interest, the Constable of Trinity asked me to find a cow that does not need milking. Well, I found him one; it is called a cash cow [Laughter] and we do not need to milk it on Christmas Day. Thank you very much.

3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

I shall be supporting this amendment and there are 2 basic reasons why. At the time when I was a grocery manager, from the week running up to Christmas, every year we used to do a month's business in that few days before Christmas because people were stocking-up, they knew there was a holiday period coming up and, whatever their circumstances, everybody came in and bought extra. I find that people prepare themselves for a special occasion. Going a few years later, when I was a policeman walking the street, like many others that have to work on bank holidays, Christmas Day, Boxing Day,  et cetera, I never was alone. I would like just to take a moment to recall the generosity of the residents of the Victoria Club who used to make sure that I had some Christmas cheer while walking the beat at the top end of town, but they also had a lookout to make sure that my sergeant was not going to be interrupted. I found out years later, in fact, that what they did not want to do was for both of us to clash at the same time. So, I used to leave by one door as he came in by the other door. There are occasions, of course, when things do happen and do get very serious and one occasion, on police motorcycles, I ended up by having to do 15 hours' duty because of the amount of serious accidents there were on a day like there was last night and people in the Casualty Department and the Police Service and the Fire Service, et cetera, were run off their feet.

But I would still remind people that even in the Casualty Department, food always manages to arrive to make sure you were sustained during the long periods that you were there. So, I have got no doubt that this should be incorporated into the main law and would support it. Thank you.

4. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement :

This amendment is not really about trading hours and it is not about introducing or even extending trading on Christmas. It is more, I think, about lifestyle. I think what we should be asking ourselves is is it right, is it appropriate, that we should impose our own individual standards and convictions in legislation, or should we accept, perhaps, that other people have different attitudes, different needs, and even different lifestyles and, perhaps, even that some people do not have the family which most of us can gather around us for the support that Deputy Gorst was describing. So long as the needs of these others with different lifestyles do not impose unreasonably on our own, should we not be tolerant of their needs, requirements, and not force or impose upon them our own convictions and standards? I said this is not about introducing or extending trading on Christmas Day. As we know, as I explained yesterday, every shop that has a Sunday trading permit currently can open on Christmas Day for 24 hours: they do not. What happens is that a number of convenience stores - whether we will still be able to call them this if this amendment is carried - open for a few hours on Christmas Day morning for those people who are not as well organised as Deputy Gorst , and maybe the rest of us, who might need to get some essentials: milk, eggs, chocolates - if you have been out late on Christmas Eve, perhaps - the occasional turkey, maybe. But seriously, it is not a commercial operation. People do not make money. They are providing a service in the local community for the people who live in their particular locality. What we have got to ask ourselves is should we deny that service to those who need it and take advantage of it? As I say, it is a service; it is not a commercial enterprise. It probably costs most of the shopkeepers money to open for those few hours. Now, one of the beauties of the new law, and the Regulations we are able to make under it it is flexible. If we are content with what happens now, it is quite simple to introduce the Regulation when we come back later that Christmas Day will be restricted to stores of a minimum size and for the number of hours; we can do that. But I think to impose in legislation our own standards, our own convictions, our own lifestyles, if you like, to deny other

people the opportunity of meeting their needs, I think is wrong. Thank you.

5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

I thought this one was quite easy last night. I did read it and think: "I think this is a step too far" and listening to the Constable of St. Clement - or the Assistant Minister - is Christmas Day a special occasion? If you read the law and then you read the amendment it says: "To give the Minister automatic powers to declare a special occasion, which will let shops open on a special occasion." To me, Christmas Day, Good Friday and Liberation Day are already special days; that is why shops remain closed. I do not understand why to me, this is going a step and it is all a matter of conscience, but Good Friday, Christmas Day and Liberation Day are the most religious days of the year. Now, that could possibly be where the amendment is coming from. I do not have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with it if it is disguised as something else, and that is why I feel like it is. As I say, we do not open there are very, very few last year I forgot to get fresh brussels sprouts and my dad loves his fresh and I tried. I went around for about 2 hours trying, beg, borrow or sell anywhere, and a friend came to my rescue in the end. I had frozen brussels sprouts, but they were not good enough. It was overcome, but at the same time there was nowhere where I could buy them. I mean, it was not a matter of running out of gravy browning. Good Friday, which we are we discussing all the amendments? Okay, I will keep that one. I really do feel the same. Christmas Day is a special day. I feel the same as the Constable; to decide now that there is no give on this day is a step too far and a step backwards. I supported the 26th as Boxing Day because I think that was again, I mean, the Constable kept saying yesterday: "Only when Boxing Day falls on the 26th is it relevant." Well, Boxing Day only ever falls on the 26th as far as I am concerned. Christmas Day, again, is always the 25th and we have gone beyond Scrooge

and the majority of people who can be off are off. Unless when the proposer of the amendment is summing up, at this moment in time I really think it is a step too far and I do not think I will be able to support it. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , if I may say so, we are having one debate. Although the vote is going to be taken separately on parts (a) and (b) it is one debate, so if you wish to say anything about part (b) and Good Friday then now is the time to do it, or you will have lost your opportunity.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, I will just quickly because there was a remark from the Deputy of St. John yesterday about Good Friday. We all know Liberation Day and there was a big kerfuffle last year; it fell on a Saturday and the shops could open and most did not and it stayed a very special day and it is a very special day to Jersey people and people who know the history. Good Friday, the Deputy of St. John said yesterday he remembers when you could only go to one cinema and see a religious film and it would be free. This is exactly the same today because my children were absolutely had nothing to do last Good Friday and it was raining and I said: "I will take you down to the Waterfront Cinema" and it was closed. It was quite a surprise to me, but it was closed. Now, is that a step too far? I mean, it is a holiday. Again, it is a very, very religious holiday, I respect that, but to stop my children going to the cinema on their day off of school I think is a step too far. It is a matter of judgment. So, as I say, Good Friday is in everybody's view the second Christmas Day. On the Thursday, everything shuts at 11.30 p.m. There is no extending of pub times. I can live with that. People must be off licensed premises by 12.00 a.m. on the Thursday because it runs into Good Friday. Again, obviously Good Friday runs into the next day, which they can open. People live with that. It is the only place I know that still does it, but I do not have a problem with that; it is covered by different laws. So, as I say, I think these are very, very religious days. It depends on what way you want to look at them. I respect other people's views, but I will not have them rammed down my throat. So, I am sorry, as I say, definitely, if we are voting separately, I will not be supporting Good Friday and then Liberation Day either. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

The Connétable of St. Saviour , I saw your light come on, but it may have been involuntarily earlier. If you wish to speak please do so.

Connétable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour : No, Sir, it was just my neighbour's.

6. Connétable K.P. Vibert of St. Ouen :

My good friend, the Connétable of St. Clement, said that this might be imposing our own lifestyle on other people and I was minded to remember a speech which I had seen some time ago from the former Prime Minister of Australia who was addressing a similar issue about making a decision in the Parliament which would affect some people in a different way to others. I think he pointed out that there are 2 sides to the coin. Yes, we are imposing a lifestyle, or the decision we are making is going to impose a lifestyle, but at the end of the day we are a Christian country and these are Christian festivals - other than Liberation Day - and I think that we should be trying to preserve them. If it means that other people do not share our beliefs, do not share our views, that is fine; they have every right to have their own views and their own beliefs. At the end of the day, as that speech clearly said, this is a Christian country, we need to preserve our Christian principles, and I will support this.

7. Deputy M. Tadier :

These kinds of debates make for strange bedfellows as we saw yesterday with the Boxing Day debate. It seems that the centre-left - those who want to protect the workers' rights - unite with the religious element in the Assembly and it is only the hardcore capitalists who want to worship the golden calf, both on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and at Easter, who are left in the minority. There is this interesting idea about imposing our lifestyle on others. In one sense, yes, that is quite true. In the sense that I benefit from having Christmas Day off, Boxing Day off, Good Friday I will not work. I mean, we can all choose to do a few emails on Good Friday, but I think a lot of us generally will take those days off and say: "These are the few days off. We are going to draw a line and we are not going to work on those days." Yes, I do want to impose that kind of lifestyle on other workers. I want to be able to say to workers: "You should be entitled to this day off as well." We have heard in the past that obviously the nature of the world we live in there are going to be essential services that we need to be 24/7/365 or 366, depending on the year. Certainly, those are jobs that I have done in the past, having to man telephone lines for emergency services, just in case anyone would call; and they did, of course, call on those days. But these people are generally in a minority, but they are also protected often by unions, by legislation, they have contracts that entitle them to time in lieu, which entitle them to double or often triple-time. The workers we are talking about in the retail industry are often not. Effectively, I believe what the Constable of St. Clement is saying is that workers should have the right to choose to be obliged to work on bank holidays if they want to. This is what we are talking about. We heard yesterday that in reality we say it is freedom of choice but we know that people who want those jobs are people who need to work in those kind of jobs for whatever reason - maybe it is to do with the fact they have not been here for 5 years and cannot get other work, or the fact that there just simply is no other work around - will be obliged to work on those days. I think we have already agreed in principle about giving people time off; this was the whole Boxing Day debate we had yesterday. I am surprised that Deputy Martin does not see this as for me, while I am a liberal and I want to see flexibility in society, I really think that it is about people having to work on these days, whether they have families, whether they are religious, or whether they are single or not and I think this is the important part. I think that is really there all is that is more or less all I have to say, apart from the fact that we should not get bogged down with whether these are religious holidays or not. Holidays have different meanings for different people. Some people may see Christmas as a religious holiday, they may see Good Friday and Easter Monday as a religious holiday. Even more people who live in secular society see them as times when they can spend time with their family. But everybody should, I believe, see these as times when we can take out time to reflect, time to spend moments with our families, with our friends, or even sometimes on our own just to get a complete break and to reflect on things that are important to us. So I think that really we should support the principle of this. I think enough is enough. There are certain days in the year which everybody should be entitled to have off, where we stop making money. People can make purchases before. If you run out of sugar on Christmas Day or Boxing Day, well just go around and see your neighbour; that is what used to happen in the past, I believe. We need a return to the old values in that sense to restore community. I heard quite a nice anecdote yesterday about somebody who did approach a Senator in here - he is quite a long-serving Senator - and this person had run out of sugar and she just went around and I think she did not borrow sugar, but she borrowed £20 to go and buy some sugar. [Laughter] I should have probably adapted that anecdote, but equally, if the shops are shut, you just pop around and see your neighbour who you may not have even met before, say: "Can I borrow some sugar, some coffee, or the occasional turkey?" and I am sure there will be lots of no shortage of turkeys in our cupboards. So that is my position. I think we need to be quite clear, this is not about imposing our view on other people; it really is just about respect for humanity and drawing a line and saying: "Enough is enough." We have most days of the year where we can

purchase, where we can make money, and we need to take a bit of time out.

8. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

It is interesting really listening to some of the speeches today, how we are moving into the future with this legislation and finding ourselves in some way as a community and trying to have specific regard to our Christian roots in this community predominately. It was interesting to listen to your

oath, Sir, the other day in the Royal Court where you swore to protect the rights of not only the Island, but also the rights of God and other such I do not recall the entire oath, but to preserve God and Christianity, I believe, in your oath. It is very interesting that we are talking about Sunday Trading because of Christianity, yet we all know that Jesus Christ was a Jew and the Sabbath for Jews is Saturday, I believe. So it is a peculiar situation that we find ourselves in, that we are talking about closing shops to recognise an individual, the son of God, particularly on what could be described as the wrong day. So, when we look at 25th December as Christmas Day, as the day that Christ was born, are we certain that that was the day? Not that this is about that day, but this is about [Interruption] It was, somebody said. [Interruption] It was not? I am not trying to get too deep into this, but what I am trying to make the point is - I know I am losing Members, but I just please ask them to if they cannot stay with me, to at least give me an opportunity to speak - that while I am quite religious and a Roman Catholic and a follower of Jesus Christ's teachings, I do not know whether or not it is right to put a blanket requirement of those teachings on a community. There are certainly people in this community that are not Christians. There are certainly people in this community that have no faith. To completely apply this on this day and have it because of religion in trading activity makes me a little unsettled because Christianity, at the end of the day - and I am sure the Dean can tell us - it is something you must embrace. You cannot be a part of this church unless you are a willing member. To go into this, you cannot be dragged in and it cannot be beaten into you, it is something you have got to embrace, so why force it upon somebody? I wanted to speak because I wanted to just make that point and also to ask a question. From my reading it seems that everything on these days, and all shops on these days, would be it would be very, very difficult for people to get things that they would need anyway; maybe perhaps in some locations. Without knowing specifically what those locations would be in and what areas they would be in and what exactly they would be able to sell you, I am not certain I can support this, which is quite difficult for me because I certainly do embrace making as much effort as we can to enable these laws in regards to Sunday trading more progressive. While at the same time I do find it difficult going against my beliefs, in opposing my own I am sort of at war with myself on this one, so I am just uneasy about it. I do not know if the proposer can give me some comfort, but I do feel that maybe perhaps there needs to be some facilities in the Island for certain situations, for certain instances, and certainly accessible to the different areas of the community. I do not know how that needs to be regulated, but I do think they need to be available. I do not think that a

blanket closure is perhaps the wisest thing.

9. The Dean of Jersey:

I do not think this is the moment to give a short seminar on the exact date on the birth of Christ. I think the important thing is that this is the date the world recognises as being the date to celebrate that, whenever the event took place. I do not think there is any reason to apologise for the fact that particular factors shape our culture. I have to say that - I am delighted to say - I agreed with everything Deputy Tadier said, both for the religious reasons that you would expect, but also as a protection of those people who do not need to work, in terms of farmers or nurses. I work on Christmas Day too, so I declare an interest in that. [Interruption] It does seem to me that saying that a cultural tradition - in this case, Christian faith - has shaped the way in which a community operates, it is not something for which we need to apologise; the rest of the world does not do that. If you visit other countries then you do find that the way in which they operate things - if you go to the Middle East, it is going to operate in an Islamic way and that is absolutely fine - there should be no apology for saying this particular culture has shaped our Island and therefore to celebrate and to make Christmas Day, for example, different is not something for which there should be any apology. Practically, it does seem to me the lovely thing about Christmas Day is you have 364 days to get ready for it. It does not creep up on you. You do not suddenly wake up and think: "Goodness me, it is Christmas Day. I should really have gotten around to buying a turkey." It just is not like that. I endorse everything that has been said about a bit of neighbourliness without in any way wanting to say we need to have great restrictions on people's great freedoms. I am also concerned - and I have said this before in this Chamber - for those who work in the retail sector. They are not the most easily protected group of individuals. Many of us, through student days, went and worked in shops in the summer or in the Christmas vacation and understand that a little bit. It does seem to me that we should not put people in a position where they have to work on a day that should be special for them as well. It seems to me, therefore, that there are both cultural reasons for making Christmas Day special, but also there are very good secular reasons. I think it

was after the French Revolution that they experimented with a 10-day week or something like that and it did not work. There is a rhythm, which I would say is a creation rhythm, built into us that does need those times to be different. I have every sympathy with the closed cinema and I certainly would not want to go down that route particularly, but I do think if we cannot understand that Christmas Day is different and special, then not only would we be denying protection to vulnerable workers, but we would be taking a step towards denying the culture that has shaped us for absolutely no good reason and that would be my advice, without in any way, of course, treading over the line that we have been telling Members what to do; I would not want to do that.

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

I have got 3 words on my prompt sheet here and they are God, mammon and the workers. Certainly Deputy Tadier focused on those issues and I will try to do similarly and briefly. Now, Deputy Tadier said that the important element here - or one of the important elements and the one perhaps that was swaying him - was protecting the workers. But he did not mention that that is the job of legislation. That is the job of the unions, to protect the workers, and we can do that elsewhere. Indeed, we are working on putting that protection in place as we speak and we are developing that. So, to my mind, the workers go out for once. They are not germane to this argument. It comes down to God versus mammon. When I was listening to the Constable of St. Clement's speech, where he started on about the poor, good Samaritan shopkeeper who opened on a Christmas Day even though he was making a massive loss, he almost persuaded me to vote for God. But it so happens I have just started last night The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, which I recommend to anybody, and in the very first chapter he says: "I want to get one issue out of the way before I starting talking" about why he is an atheist. He said: "What is it about religious belief that people are persuaded to respect and walk around, no matter how nonsensical it may be?" If somebody says: "I believe the earth is flat" we argue. If somebody says: "Salman Rushdie should be pursued and prosecuted", we go: "Oh, that is your religious belief. Oh, perhaps I have to respect that." So, what it comes down to is God versus mammon. For once, for me, I think I go with the liberal view that says: "If shopkeepers want to open they should be allowed to open and that God does not have a place and faith does not have a place in this sort of issue." I will be voting for mammon.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Can I seek clarification from the previous speaker? He suggested that workers go out the window because they are protected by the unions, but it is my understanding that these types of workers, for example who work in Checkers or Spar, they do not tend to be unionised, so in fact they would not be protected.

The Deputy Bailiff :

That sounded more like another speech rather than a point of clarification, Deputy . Do you wish to comment, Deputy , and clarify your speech?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I never said the workers go out of the window. I said in this case the worker argument is germane.

11. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I will be brief. I will be supporting (a) because I think Christmas Day is special and should remain so. Regarding (b), mention has been made of one of the local cinemas sadly closed, which is common knowledge that I ran for several years. We were not permitted to open on Good Friday and as the Dean and Deputy Martin have made reference to, staff that did work on the Good Friday for the religious films did so voluntarily and there was a retiring collection for the church and films were shown with a Christian message. The point I need to make, this was nothing to do with, as far as I am concerned - but I stand to be corrected by the Acting Attorney General - the shops' Regulations, but was more to do with the Bailiff 's entertainment permit, which excluded Good Friday opening. Thank you.

12. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

Lest we forget, we are a Christian community with laws founded on Christian values, including, I hasten to add, this one about Sunday Trading. I do not believe that this amendment is focused on denying people the opportunity to shop, as some would suggest. I believe, more importantly, it is aimed at recognising the fact that there needs to be, and we need to find a balance, between the commercial aspects of this Island and family life. In this case, the amendment, or the 2 parts of the amendment, identifies 3 - and I underline the word "3" - out of 365 days of the year that we recognise to be special and should be treated as such. I would hope that most States Members will support the amendment. Thank you.

13. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

I will be brief because a lot of things have been said and I get great pleasure to second this proposition. It is a very important day, as the Deputy of St. Ouen has just said. It is only 3 days in the whole year. It is important that they are protected and for religious reasons as well as a national day. I would just say I am very pleased with the impressed with the culinary skills of Deputy Gorst . Obviously he had good parents who showed him how to cook. Let us go back to family life; those days are important. I spent most of my working career working some time over Christmas, New Year, and other public holidays because I had to, but it was because it was part of the job. To be able to have it off, to spend it with our family, that is the most important thing. Just to pick up on a point that Deputy Lewis and other Members have said about the cinema being open on Good Friday, to give you a bit of a history lesson, it does go back to Lord Rank who owned the Odeon Cinemas and he was a very staunch Methodist. It was his tradition that he felt that his cinema should be open free of charge to show a film, as has been said, with a Christian message. This continued in the U.K. for many years, and over here. I would like to thank Deputy Lewis for continuing that tradition for the last 2 or 3 years and to stress it was free of charge and with a Christian message. I have no doubts to urge Members to support this very, very important proposition. Thank you.

14. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

The Connétable of St. Clement said we can be tolerant and definitely we should be, but we should not give up our beliefs. As the Dean said, when you go to other countries you respect what is going on there and very often the shops are shut on the day you arrive and you are in a self-catering apartment. But he also spoke about people on their own, and that is something that we should all think about over the Christmas time. My understanding is that certainly in one Parish that I am aware of, the caretaker prepares a Christmas meal for persons whom she is aware would otherwise not have one. As for Liberation Day, that is unique to the Islands and I will definitely be supporting both sections of this proposition.

15. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

I supported Deputy Green's proposition yesterday because I felt it helped protect or rather helped to return the Christmas holiday to a special time. Consistency, I feel, is important, so I will obviously be supporting Deputy Gorst . I do, however, appreciate where the Constable of St. Clement is coming from with his talk of occasional turkeys, but as a vegetarian I am afraid I have to apologise and tell him that Deputy Gorst 's argument is more persuasive. Perhaps he could have dangled the

carrot of a nut cutlet and I would have been won over. Consistency, as I say, it is important, certainly to me, I think to the House and most definitely to the public. On that note, I have to say it would be interesting, I believe, to see whether that consistency continues tomorrow with the Boxing Day proposition. So we have heard about Christian values. I would enlarge on that, to add that I believe that special, almost magical something - and I am not quite sure what it is, to be honest - that appears to touch most of us over the Christmas period especially is something that is special to many who do not have any faith at all or maybe even a different faith. Thus, as the Dean has said, I feel there is an onus on us to protect people who need to work in retail: people like those who, I am already aware, have been told if they do not turn up very early this coming Boxing Day, they will be sacked, period. That is the reality. No choice, no dangling of carrots. They are sacked. Deputy Tadier talked about worshipping the golden calf, but I will leave the biblical references to him because he does them very well, though not as well as the Dean, I have to say. Sorry, Deputy . I do understand where he is coming from. I conclude on that theme by saying just that I believe pounds should essentially be made to work for people, not people be made to be slaves for pounds. Christmas is, above all, special. Liberation Day very much so, of course, as Deputy Le Claire, I think, made the point, and I do feel that I must support Deputy Gorst and I congratulate him for bringing it.

16. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

I think that the present system works quite well in that I have not any evidence of objections from any members of the public or shopkeepers or those who work in shops having to work on Sundays or Christmas Eve particularly, in this case. The present situation is that the Connétable has the discretion whether to allow small shops to open or not, and I for one would not support the opening of chain stores on Christmas Day. I would be quite happy to support the opening of small owner- operated outlets for whom it tends to be more of a social occasion, I have to say, from a commercial necessity. Lifestyles have changed considerably over the last few years and I really do not think we should be micromanaging public holidays and thus I shall not be supporting the proposition.

17. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary :

The previous speaker but one went back to the cash cows and the golden calves, but I will not milk that analogy any more. I think Deputy Le Claire's trouble is the key to this debate. He was trying to articulate something that is really important and is what this is about, and the issue is whether we are, by accepting this amendment, imposing a lifestyle on others. Clearly, if we are doing that, then there is an issue and we have to be very careful. Deputy Le Claire hit on it as he was searching by pointing out, for instance, that this might not be the right day and we will not go into that, but the fact is it is 25th December by tradition and he did not mention that Jesus was not a Christian, though he did say he was a Jew, and so on. You can get quite complicated, but the point of what he was saying was that that is not the point. The point is what Christmas Day now represents, and the Dean mentioned that, of course, very much in the context of the Christian heritage, but I would go further than that and pick up on what Deputy Trevor Pitman has already said about that magical something. That is the nub of it, is it not? It is not just a Christian festival for Christians any more, and people who have no allegiance to Jesus Christ sing the carols and something is going on and they look at Christmas trees and so on. Of course there is a lot of commercialisation. Of course it has been bastardised, but underneath it somewhere, people are stirred in a very special way at Christmas. It is a day in the middle of winter when we look up and see the stars, and that is what Christmas Day  brings to  everybody, and  if we  fail to  support (a), then we are  letting go of something really, really valuable and we are telling the world out there what our values are. We are saying that that magical something does not matter, it really does not matter; it is just a day like every other day and so it goes. So that is my comment on the Christmas Day. I really do think it is not about imposing lifestyle and somebody else used the phrase: "Is Christmas Day a special occasion?" That is what we are deciding: is Christmas Day a special occasion? So please do not get confused by this, by thinking in terms of what one speaker said, we should not give up our beliefs, we are a Christian country. I would not go that far, but I would say something special is here that must not be lost. In paragraph (b), Liberation Day and Good Friday, it is not a matter of forbidding trading on those days. It is a matter of marking them out by forbidding the Minister to make them into special days whereby there is a shopping free-for-all. That is what we are forbidding if we go for paragraph (b), and then those 2 days, Good Friday and Liberation Day, become under the mantle of Sunday Trading and it would remove the uncertainty we had, I think it was this year, when people did not know what was going on with Liberation Day and the decision was taken very late and we would just have said these 2 days are special and they come under Sunday Trading. So they are not totally special but they are relatively special and I will leave it there.

18. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

I believe in a supreme being and we are in a Christian society and Christianity is the way this Island has been for many generations. To me, it is important that we recognise the various religious days within the church, and over the years we have seen the dwindling of the way of life within the Island and of family values, and I said this yesterday so I will not repeat it because I am sure Members will remember. That said, I will move on to Good Friday and Liberation Day. Good Friday, to me, was always - as a child - spent fishing with the family. Believe it or not, it was a tradition in our family that we would go low-water fishing followed by a barbecue on the beach, or a bonfire on the beach in those days, with all the family from the grandparents right the way through to the grandchildren, and there might be 30 or 40 of us. That is how we would spend Good Friday, and as we grew up, we had - and it was mentioned earlier - the film at the Odeon that we could go and see. Then later on we have seen it all nibbled at the edges and we see discos playing and the like and licensed premises opened and then shops now opened, et cetera. Yes, it has moved forward with the times, but I am opposed to things moving forward too fast because we still need our values. We still need our values. So we must thank people like the former Bailiff , your brother, Sir, for the hard work he has done over his tenure in his office in making Liberation Day the day that it is [Approbation] because it was going down the road of becoming just another Bank Holiday, and thanks to the former Bailiff and officers of the court and this Assembly that we bring it back to something very, very special for this Island. I will not say any more, but I am totally in favour of this amendment and will be supporting it.

19. Senator J.L. Perchard:

Of course Christmas Day is a special day for everybody, even those people who are working, for atheists and for people like the Deputy of St. John who do believe in a superior being. The problem is there is a certain amount of hypocritical nature among what many people are saying. I say that because Members have highlighted the opening of shops and the shop workers who will have to work on Christmas Day but many Members will travel to the U.K., perhaps leaving on Christmas Eve and using trains or receive family members arriving on Christmas morning or Christmas Eve who are expecting the travel facilities, emergency services. We may even go out for lunch on Christmas Day, a very nice family occasion. We expect to be served. We will turn on the electric lights. We will turn on the taps. We expect all that to work just as normal. Our transport links, as I say. So we are being hypocrites really to say that the little corner shop cannot open. We are nuts if we decline to support Deputy Gorst here. We are not saying this is going to be a mass free-for-all, a retail race around and have all the shops open. We are leaving this to the discretion of the Connétable s to open the little family village shop, as they see fit, between 8.00 a.m. and 10.00 a.m. perhaps on Christmas Day, Good Friday, because Members have to remember that the day leading up to Christmas Day is Christmas Eve, and the 23rd before that. Many people will be working those days in order to have Christmas off. Why would they not be able to pop in and get a pint of milk on Christmas morning or Good Friday morning? We are not talking about a retail free-for-all here. We are leaving it to the discretion of the Connétable s. I say to Members do not impose one part of your values while ignoring really what happens underground. We are talking about the shop

window here. If a shop shuts, behind that shop window, believe me, so much goes on to make sure that the shop is ready to open tomorrow. Transport, food packaging, but we are not talking about closing that down. We are just talking about the shop window. We are just denying those people who need the shop on those 3 important days the opportunity to go shopping. The engine room that keeps that shop open of course is still throbbing and we are not looking to impose our views and high-principled morals on the engine room. So I ask Members to think very carefully about this. While, superficially, it is a nice proposition, cosy and cuddly and we will all go away feeling much better, I am not sure whether the 2-faced nature of this is something that I can support.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Could I ask Members to respect the view that when other Members are talking, they should try to keep their voices down? Thank you. The Connétable of St. Saviour ?

20. The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I think we are rather losing sight of what the main proposition is here which is to simplify and make workable the Regulations for Sundays and special days. I do not have a problem with part (b) of this amendment because I am quite happy for those days to be controlled by the Constables as a Sunday. This main proposition will make things more workable. The amendment of taking Christmas Day out of the control of the Constables I think means that we will have areas where there will be no more convenience store. What will happen is that people will get in their cars and drive to a chemist in town or wherever where they will be able to buy their pint of milk or whatever it is they need. That is a decision they can make. It is up to people to decide if, for religious reasons, they  do not  wish to shop on a Christmas Day. They can  make their  arrangements beforehand. They do not have to do it. Eventually economics will make the decision for us because if we, as an Island, do not shop on Christmas Day, the convenience stores will find it is not sensible for them to open and they will not open. Nobody is forcing them to open and therefore I think we can allow the main proposition to go through. There is no reason for people to say, I think, for religious reasons they should not be open. They just do not have to use them. People can make their own choices, and eventually economics will decide whether those shops are viable or not.

21. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter :

Really I come from a point of view "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" because the situation we have now is that the Connetables can make their discretion and allow a shop to open or not on a Sunday. Invariably the Connétable s, apart from a couple of instances recently where Fête dé Noués and Fête de la Libération have confused the issue, certainly the country Parishes do tend not to allow the larger shops to open. I think, just touching briefly into the Christianity point of view here, as Christians I always believe that it is our role to encompass other people and to respect their needs and requirements as well. In one of my former lives, I had many occasions to go into a lot of the houses around the north of town which invariably one would term bedsit land' where people did not have fridges, where people worked right up until late on a Christmas Eve and they needed to find somewhere to go and get their pint of milk and perhaps even their meal for the following day and they would go to the local convenience store to do that. There are people in our community who do not have the same beliefs as we do and would wish to work on Christmas Day or do whatever they wanted to do, and shopping may well be part of that as well. I would like to give notice to the Minister for Economic Development and the Assistant Minister that in their comments for part 2, there is a sentence there which I will just read out very briefly: "In any event, Regulations can be made under the law to restrict the size and type of shop which might be allowed to open on Christmas Day." I would give notice that should there be any creeping into the larger stores and supermarkets requiring to be open, I will come back with a proposition more or less identical to Deputy Gorst and support it to ensure that larger shops do not open and it is restricted only to convenience stores, to the essential needs of that particular day. At the moment,

unfortunately, and I say through the Chair, to Deputy Gorst , I cannot support your amendment because it takes away the element of discretion which has for many, many years been well managed by the Connétable s. Thank you very much.

22. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

After the last couple of speeches, I thought I would just stick to my own conclusions, but I will say to an extent there have been comments about do we impose our own standards on to legislation. Surely what we are made of or what formulates us are our individual views, standards and experiences during our lives. That is what makes us and that is what brings us towards the decisions that we make in this Assembly, and it is the 53 of us all together who make the legislation or make the rules. Therefore I do think it is appropriate for us to take those experiences and views, et cetera, as part of the hotchpotch of the society we represent. I do have to make a slight comment because I have to say I could not stop laughing at the expression on the Assistant Minister for Economic Development's face during the opening speech by the rapporteur. Obviously he does not read from the same cookery book as Deputy Gorst on the matter, particularly in relation to gravy and how to make it. The comment about strange bedfellows I have to say I have never envisaged Deputy Southern and Deputy Martin as being, I think it was hardcore capitalists in the phraseology of Deputy Tadier in terms of who or who would not support this proposition. I do have to say I think Deputy Tadier and the Deputy of St. Mary made some quite good speeches in terms of the comments they have made and also the Deputy of St. Mary tries to bring us back to the proposition. The proposition is saying, effectively, Christmas Day should be a special Sunday almost. It has got to be more than a Sunday, and Good Friday and Liberation Day should be treated as a Sunday and no worse, and that means you cannot do a blanket provision to open; you have to deal with things specifically. So it is not as restrictive as some speakers are trying to make out. I think that is the key thing: to keep going back to the proposition. I do not think I really want to be part of the brigade in the way it will be portrayed in trying to make Christmas less special. In my view, if you do not support that proposition, that is how it will be portrayed and I think we should be supporting both parts.