States Meeting Transcript - 28/04/2009

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 28th APRIL 2009

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................9

1. Appointment of the Minister for Health and Social Services:...........................9

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):..................................................9 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:......................................................9 Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:..............................................................9 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour : ......................................................9 Senator B.E. Shenton:..........................................................................9

1. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :............................................................9

1. Deputy T. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................11
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier:....................................................11
3. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................11
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................12
5. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :..................................................12
6. Senator S. Syvret:......................................................................12

7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................13
8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................13

9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................13
10. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................14
11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ..................................................14
12. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:...................................................14
13. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade : ............................................14
14. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John:......................................................15
15. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : ..............................................15
16. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier : ..................................................15

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................15

1. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................17
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................17
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................18
4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................18
5. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................18
6. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................19
7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................19
8. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................19
9. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................20
10. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................20
11. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................21
12. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................21
13. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................21
14. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................22

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................22

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................24
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................24
3. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................24
4. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................25
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................26
7. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................26
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................26
9. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................27
10. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................27
11. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................27
12. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................27
13. Connétable J.L.S. Gallichan of Trinity : ..............................................28

1.4. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter:..........................................................28

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................30
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................30
3. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................30
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................31
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................31
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................31
7. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................31
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32
9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................32
10. The Connétable of Grouville :........................................................32
11. The Connétable of Trinity :..........................................................32
12. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................33
13. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................33
14. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin:.......................................................33
15. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................34
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................34
17. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................34
18. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................34

1.5 Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................35

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................37
2. The Connétable of Grouville :...........................................................37
3. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................37
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................38
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................38
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................38
7. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................39
8. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................39
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................39

10. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................40
11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................40 The Bailiff :...................................................................................41 The Bailiff :...................................................................................41

QUESTIONS.....................................................................................42

2. Written Questions.......................................................................42

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE REDUCTION OF INCOME SUPPORT PAYMENTS IN OCTOBER 2009:...................................................................42
2. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE DISCHARGE OF EFFLUENT INTO THE SEA:....................................................................................44
3. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ECONOMIC STIMULUS PLAN:...........45
4. CONNÉTABLE OF GROUVILLE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE CRIMINAL OFFENCES CONFISCATION FUND AND THE DRUGS CONFISCATION FUND: ........................................46
5. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE DISCHARGE OF EFFLUENT INTO THE SEA:..............................................................................48
6. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING MONIES OWED TO STATES DEPARTMENTS BY HARCORT DEVELOPMENTS:.......................................................48
7. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING SHAREHOLDINGS HELD BY THE JERSEY ELECTRICITY COMPANY:..........................................................49
8. DEPUTY D.J. DE SOUSA OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING SOCIAL HOUSING WAITING LISTS:................................49
9. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE EMPLOYMENT OF STAFF ON THE NEW ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT SITE:.................50
10. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE SUBMISSION OF CAMPAIGN EXPENSES BY CANDIDATES FROM THE 2008 DEPUTIES ELECTION:............................................51
11. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE INVESTIGATION OF BREACHES OF THE PUBLIC

ELECTIONS (JERSEY) LAW 2002: ..................................................52

12. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE EXCHANGE RATES FOR THE NEW ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT:....................................................52
13. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING THE FUTURE MANAGEMENT OF THE YOUTH SERVICE: ....................................................................52
14. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING INCOME TAX RETURNS FOR 1(1)(k) CATEGORY RESIDENTS:............................................................53
15. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ARTICLE 38 OF THE JERSEY TEACHERS DISCIPLINARY AND GRIEVANCE PROCEDURES:........................................................54
16. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING JERSEY'S RATIFICATION OF UNITED MATIONS' CONVENTIONS:......................................................................55
17. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE FISCAL POLICY PANEL:..................55
18. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE DEVELOPMENT OF A POLICY FOR CHILDREN IN CARE:................................................................57

19. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE REGARDING PARLIAMENTARY PRVILEGE: 59
20. DEPUTY A.K.F. GREEN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE CONDITION OF LA FOLIE INN: ............63
21. DEPUTY A.K.F. GREEN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING DESIGN CHANGES TO THE NEW ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT: ..............................................................64
22. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE TESTING OF SEA WATER FROM THE CASTLE QUAYS SITE:...............................................................66
23. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING SAVINGS FROM SCOPE ADJUSTMENTS' ON THE NEW ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT:................66
24. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE COST OF TRANSPORTING CONTAMINATED LANDFILL TO LA COLLETTE 2:...............................67
25. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING CNIM INCINERATOR PLANTS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM:..................................................................68
26. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE SALE OF STATES-OWNED PROPERTIES:....................69
27. THE CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE NATIONALITIES OF THOSE CURRENTLY REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED: ......................................................................71
28. DEPUTY S. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE NUMBERS IN RECEIPT OF VARIOUS INCAPACITY AND INVALIDITY BENEFITS:......................................71
29. DEPUTY S. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING GLOBAL WARMING ISSUES:....................74
30. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING OUTBREAKS OF THE NOVOVIRUS IN JERSEY:...............................................................................77
31. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE RECRUITMENT OF SECRETARIAL STAFF: .......78
32. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE OWNESR OF THE PLEMONT HOLIDAY VILLAGE:...............................78
33. DEPUTY A.K.F. GREEN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE COST OF CHANGES MADE TO THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT DESIGN: ....................................79

3. Oral Questions...........................................................................80

1. The Deputy of St. Mary of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the withholding of information relating to the increased cost of the incinerator when the matter was debated on 9th July 2008: ..................................................80 The Connétable of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):.........80

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................80
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................80
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................81
4. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................81
5. Deputy A.K.F. Green:..................................................................81

6. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................82

2. Deputy S. Pitman of the Minister for Social Security regarding back-payments from Social Security for claimants of Long Term Invalidity Allowance, Short term Invalidity Allowance or Invalidity Allowance:....................................................82 Deputy I.J. Gorst (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................82

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................82
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................83
3. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................83
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................83

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................84

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................84 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: .....................................................................84 Senator F.E. Cohen:..........................................................................84 Senator A. Breckon: ..........................................................................84

3. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the removal of the cash machine in the Arrivals Hall at Jersey Airport:................................85 Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):..........85

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................85
2. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................85
3. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................85
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................86
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................86

4. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the investigation of complaints regarding allegations of breaches of the Public Elections (Jersey) Law 2002 during the 2008 elections:..............................................................86 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................86

3.4.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:...................................................................86

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chief Minister regarding the number of apprenticeships currently offered within the States: .....................................................87 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................87

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................87
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................87

3. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................87
4. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................87
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................88
   6. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the future ofthe Brig-y-Don children's home: ....................................................88 The Deputy of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................88
   7. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of the Minister for Housing regarding the number of new 3 and 4- bedroom houses due to be built for States rental in the next 3 years: ....................88 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ............................................88

1. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................89
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................89

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................89

8. Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding youth and sport facilities to eliminate anti-social behaviour: ......................................90 Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..............90

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................90
2. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................90
3. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................90

4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................91
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................91
6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................91
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................91

9. The Deputy of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the admittance of staff from private schools to the Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme: ............92 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................92

3.9.1 The Deputy of St. John:................................................................92

10. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding increasing the upper limit of incometax:..............................................................92 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................92

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................93
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................93
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................93
4. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................93
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................94
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................94
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................94
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérrisier:...........................................................94
9. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................95

11. The Deputy of St. Mary of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding where the additional funding of £1.65 million was found for the Energy from Waste Plant:.......95 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................95

3.11.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................95

12. Deputy T.M. Pitman of H.M. Attorney General regarding the decision to arrest Senator Stuart Syvret and search his residence: .................................................96 Mr. W.J. Bailhache Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:............................................96

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................96
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................96
3. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................96
4. Senator S. Syvret:....................................................................97
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................97

13. The Deputy of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the number of local applicants for the post of Director of Human Resources and local succession planning: ...........97 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................97

1. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................98
2. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................98
3. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................98
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................99
5. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................99

14. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the disregard of employee social security contributions for income tax purposes:.........100 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):..........................100

3.14.1 Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................100

15. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding Article 26(1) of the Court of Appeal (Jersey) Law 1961:............................................................100 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):................................................100

3.15.1 The Deputy of St. Martin : ..........................................................101

16. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the arrest of Senator Syvret and the action taken by the States of Jersey Police: ....................101 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): ................................101

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ..........................................................101

2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ..........................................................102
3. Senator S. Syvret:..................................................................102

17. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the accountability of the Police: ..........................................................................102

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................103
2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ..........................................................103
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...............................................................103

4. Urgent oral question to the Minister for Housing.....................................104

Deputy S. Pitman:...........................................................................104 Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing): ..........................................104

1. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................104
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:................................................................105
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................105
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................105
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................106
6. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................106
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................106
8. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................106

5. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Minister for Economic Development.106

1. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................106 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):........................106
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:.................................................................107
3. Deputy K.C. Lewis :...................................................................107
4. Deputy S.Power:......................................................................107
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................108
6. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................108
7. The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................108
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................109
9. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:................................................................109
10. Deputy K.C. Lewis :...................................................................109
11. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................110
12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................110
13. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................110

5.13.1 Deputy M. Tadier :..................................................................111

6. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Chief Minister.........................111

1. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................111 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):................................................111
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................112
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................112
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton:....................................................................113
5. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................113
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon:..................................................................113
7. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:................................................................114
8. Deputy A.K.F. Green:.................................................................114
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................114
10. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................115
11. Senator B.E. Shenton:.................................................................115

STATEMENTS OF MATTERS ON OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY .......................115

7. Statement by the Chief Minister regarding P.49/2009 Child abuse compensation claims: freedom of expression for survivors'..........................................115

7.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):..........................................115

1. Senator S. Syvret:.....................................................................117
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................117
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................117
4. Senator B.E. Shenton:.................................................................117
5. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:.......................................118
6. Senator A. Breckon: ..................................................................118
7. Senator S. Syvret:.....................................................................118
8. Deputy A.E. Jeune :....................................................................119
9. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................119

8. Statement by the Chief Minister regarding public sector pay in 2009/2010..........120

8.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):..........................................120

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................120
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................120
3. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:................................................................120
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:.................................................................121
5. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................121

6. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................121
7. Senator A. Breckon: ..................................................................122
8. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................122
9. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................122

9. Statement by H.M. Attorney General regarding the results of the Deputies elections in No. 2 District St. Helier................................................................123

9.1 The Attorney General:................................................................123

1. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................124
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................124
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:..................................................................124
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:..................................................................125
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:..................................................................125
6. Deputy S.Pitman:.....................................................................125
7. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................125 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :.......................................................................126 Deputy G.P. Southern :......................................................................126

PUBLIC BUSINESS............................................................................127

10. Police Complaints and Discipline: extension to Honorary Officers conducting Parish Hall Inquiries (P.30/2009)..............................................................128

10.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:.............................................................128

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................135

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

1. Appointment of the Minister for Health and Social Services:

The Bailiff :

The Chief Minister has given notice to the Greffier of the States that he will nominate the Deputy of Trinity for this Ministerial position. May I remind Members of the procedure; Members will be invited to propose and to second a nomination but may not speak to the matter. Each candidate nominated will have the opportunity to address the Assembly for 10 minutes and there will be, following that, a period of questioning. Chief Minister

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

With that introduction, I am pleased to propose the Deputy of Trinity , Deputy Pryke for the vacancy as Minister of Health and Social Services.

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Thank you. I am pleased to propose former member of the Health and Social Services Committee, Deputy Paul Le Claire of St. Helier .

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any further nominations for the Minister for Health and Social Services?

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

I am pleased to propose Deputy Geoff Southern for the role of Minister for Health and Social Services.

The Bailiff :

Deputy Southern is proposed, is that nomination seconded?  [Seconded]  There are now 3 candidates for the Minister for Health and Social Services, are there any further nominations?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Yes, I would like to propose Deputy Collin Egré.

The Bailiff :

The Deputy of St. Peter is proposed, is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any further nominations for the ..

Senator B.E. Shenton:

I would like to propose that Senator Perchard and his team are allowed to continue their job.

The Bailiff :

Is the nomination of Senator Perchard seconded? [Seconded] Are there any further nominations for the Minister for Health and Social Services? Well, I accordingly invite Deputy Le Claire, Deputy Southern , the Deputy of St. Peter and Senator Perchard to withdraw from the Chamber to another place and they will be escorted by a member of the States Greffe Staff.

The Bailiff :

I call upon the Deputy of Trinity to address the Assembly.

1. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

I am very honoured to be nominated by the Chief Minister for the post of Minister for Health and Social Services. I come with a long background in health care. I trained as a registered nurse in a London teaching hospital, I had midwifery training in Bristol and I also worked in other N.H.S. (National Health Service) hospitals prior to returning to Jersey. I was a homecare sister for Jersey Hospice Care for well over 15 years up to my election to the States in 2005. This combined experience of 30 years in the front line of care and everything from birth to death has given me the knowledge and understanding of all aspects of health and social care. I have also had experience in youth work, including setting up and running Trinity Youth Club. I was one of the founder members and later chair of Jersey Brook and to complement this important service, I set up Minden Base which is now known as the Yes Project. I am also aware of the issues and problems of those who find themselves on the margins of society in my role as chair of Jersey Homeless Outreach Group and the issues of residential care, being an honorary director of Methodist Homes (Jersey) Limited. Since being elected, I have proved that I am capable of taking an active role in the States as well as my involvement in the Parish, especially being on the Retirement Homes and the First- Time Buyers Committee. Firstly, I chaired a Scrutiny Panel to look at issues at Overdale Hospital and then, as Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment, I would like to think that the Minister and I have turned that department around and I thank the Minister for his support. As part of my role as Assistant Minister, I have been responsible for making tough planning decisions and changing the process from those decisions made behind closed doors to all the decisions and the reasons behind that decision made in public: a major positive change. In my role at Environment, I have driven forward new legislation raising the profile of environmental issues and especially through Environmental Week. Now to my vision of Health and Social Services; how do I see the future? Members are all aware that there are major issues facing the department, all of which are so important. There is the Williamson Report and implementation of that important policy which, if supported by this House, will change the face of social services and the care we give to our vulnerable children and families. I know that Scrutiny are undertaking a review and I, for one, very much welcome that and I shall give a commitment to bring the Implementation Plan and to have the correct funding to this Assembly for debate as soon as possible. Care of those vulnerable children is vital and if this Assembly approves the 11 recommendations in the report, it will make a significant difference on how this care is delivered. I know that the Minister has a dedicated Assistant Minister who has this responsibility. I would continue to have a dedicated Assistant Minister for Children and Social Services. This also includes supporting the Care Leavers Association and to ensure that correct services and funding are in place to support and care for those victims of child abuse. New Directions - a huge piece of work which has been around for far too long; I am committed to finding a way of delivering it, be it taken in stages or one step at a

time. It is no good having such a good report, an important piece of work, if it cannot be delivered. Care in the community; a big issue which includes care of our ageing population, respite care for our young people and adults, delivering an up-to-date, fit-for-purpose service is vital and includes working out a long-term solution for the funding of residential and nursing care. I am committed to people staying in their own homes for as long as possible and I will continue to work with the Parishes and the Connétable s; they know the needs of their parishioners. To achieve this, G.P. (General Practitioner) and care providers, be they charitable and/or strategy groups, all have an important part to play. I would work with the other departments and other organisations to provide our Islanders with better preventative care and centres to provide excellent primary care which Islanders deserve. The subject of primary care, I recognise, is the responsibility of the Minister for Social Security but prevention is better than cure and I would ensure that there is a good working relationship between the Minister and the departments. Indeed, Health and Social Services cannot work in isolation and its strength will be working with other departments, be it Home Affairs over the issue of alcohol abuse; Education, Sport and Culture to encourage healthy lifestyle in schools and youth clubs; Planning; Housing; and of course the Treasury. There are great financial pressures in all areas but to achieve a service that the Island requires and aspires to will cost money and I am looking at the Minister for Treasury and Resources and this Assembly and saying: "More funding will be required." These are only a few of the important issues, the list is much longer. My first priority in post will be to meet the senior management team and political colleagues to identify the priorities; short, medium and long term. In his recent report, the Comptroller and Auditor General identified some areas that needed reform but the management needs to have a political leader. To achieve our goals, I need to take that team with me. I would take a firm hand and if any area needs change I will change it. It is vital to have a good team all working to the same goal; that of providing the best possible care, providing good care for the people of Jersey, whatever their circumstances or their needs. I would like to acknowledge all the excellent care being delivered at present by many very committed staff and if successful in this nomination, then I feel it will be an important part of my role to be as accessible as possible to all. I believe I am the right candidate for the job. I do have a proven track record, a long history in health and care. I am committed and in a quiet determined, unassuming way, I deliver results and can make important decisions when required to do so. There is no quick fix solution to all the issues at Health and Social Services, but by having a strong leadership all working together, change will happen. After having 4 Ministers in less than 2 years, the service is crying out for stability, commitment, experience and consistency. I believe I can offer that. I know I can make a difference and ask for Members' support. [Approbation]

The Bailiff :

Members have 20 minutes to question the candidate and again a bell will be sounded after 19 minutes.

1. Deputy T. Pitman of St. Helier :

If I could make a serious point with perhaps a humorous observation; it might be said that the role of Minister for Health and Social Services should come with a health warning after recent times. What assurances, if any, could the Deputy give the House that she has the toughness to see what will be an absolutely very difficult job, to see it through?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I think, having had over 15 years experience in health and social care over here as well as years in the U.K., 30 years altogether, I realise that there are a lot of different important issues that need to be addressed. I do not go shouting from the top, I work with people, I work as a team to get results and at the end of the day that is most important. We need a health service that Jersey can be proud of and need to take that step forward to make it a service that is right for the Islanders of Jersey. I have with Planning, as I said, to make decisions; they are very tough decisions at Planning, because no one can be happy whatever decision you make, but I am there to weigh-up both sides of the argument and if necessary will make a tough decision.

2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier :

If elected, would the Deputy be looking to fund Williamson in the entirety without any clauses? The Deputy of Trinity :

As I said in my speech, I am committed to bringing the implementation of the Williamson Report to the States for debate. The report highlighted the fact there should be political oversight of these services and I fully endorse this and would still have an Assistant Minister with that responsibility for Children and Social Services. That report is vital to change what is a, perhaps .. well it is a poor service because there are over 11 recommendations and I am committed to bringing that plan to this Assembly for full open discussion, because at the end of the day the most important thing to come out of that is care of our children and families across the whole board. So that is the most important thing, and to get the funding and to get the proper support which it will need, it will need to come back to this Assembly for full and open debate and I am committed to that.

3. Senator B.E. Shenton:

If elected, the Deputy will become a member of the Council of Ministers. Do you support their stance of a pay freeze for all Health and Social Services employees, yes or no?

The Deputy of Trinity :

That is a very difficult question because I have not had any background to that, so it is very difficult for me to comment other than to say that good work is being done in Health and Social Services. As I said, a lot of work is being well done on the front line of care and that should be acknowledged and supported, but then it goes on to the importance of recruiting staff. But, other than that, Senator, I need to get some more background information and I will be briefed on that.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

It is sometimes alleged that the politicians nominally in charge of Health have been hoodwinked by the Civil Service or have not understood what is going on at the grassroots. How will the candidate obtain feedback from the grassroots of health staff as to what is happening and assert her control without micromanaging the system?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I think one of my strengths is that I have got a long proven track record in Health and Social Services. That was one of the positive things  about being a  homecare assistant  with Jersey Hospice; it is not part of the hospital, it is a 100 per cent charitable organisation, therefore it gave me the opportunity to go in every area of care, be it from social worker, be it St. Saviour 's Hospital, Family Nursing Services, other charitable organisations, as consultants, U.K. consultants: I know the backgrounds and, as I said, I am a people person, I am a good listener and I would like to think that I am approachable to all staff and that is the most important thing is listening to what staff are saying to you.

5. Connétable D.J. Murphy of Grouville :

The plight of the cancer patients who have to go to Southampton for treatment has been brought to my attention by 2 or 3 of my parishioners. Would the candidate please undertake  [Aside] [Laughter] if elected Minister to open negotiations with the monopoly air carrier on the route to try to achieve some more affordable air fares for families to visit over the weekends? We have a situation where Health and Social Services, with all due respect, are doing what they can but the cost of a family having to go over to visit somebody who is undertaking treatment, or for that person to come back to Jersey, is now becoming completely unaffordable. If she were to pressure them, I am sure they would come to some arrangement with her over offering cheaper airfares for people under the care of Health and Social Services.

The Deputy of Trinity :

As the Constable knows, care of patients who have cancer is very dear to my heart having worked there for 15 years, so anything that can be done to alleviate the stress and anxiety that patients and their families go through can be nothing but a good thing. I take up very much the Constable's suggestion and if I am elected, I would like to think he and I would go to the carriers and press that point. It is an excellent idea and I thank the Constable for that.

6. Senator S. Syvret:

The Deputy said that she would support the Williamson proposals. Does she not accept that there are several serious flaws with the Williamson proposals? One particularly profound one in that it does not recommend or advocate a complete split and separation between those who are responsible for delivering Children's Services and those who are responsible for the oversight and regulation of those services. Would the Deputy agree that those 2 functions do need to be split in the interests of effective checks and balances and is the Deputy aware that Professor June Thoburn very much agreed with that analysis at the briefing for States Members?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, I am very much aware of the comment that Professor Thoburn made about the Williamson Report and I hope these things would be highlighted in the Scrutiny review of it. Also I said I am committed to bring this back to the House for full debate and all these issues need to be thrashed- out and need to be discussed and debated in this Assembly so that a proper implementation plan with funding can be put in place for the future care of our health service. That needs a full and open and frank discussion and I would welcome that.

7. Deputy M. Tadier :

The Deputy of Trinity mentioned in her speech of support for the care leavers, and I think this is a sentiment which all of the House would be happy to support. Could the candidate therefore explain why she has never been seen at any of the 3 or 4 public meetings that I have been to of the Care Leavers' Association in the past 3 or 4 months and how she reconciles the former statement with her conspicuous absence?

The Deputy of Trinity :

With my hat on, which I did not mention here as the States know, I was appointed by this Assembly as a trustee of the Haut de la Garenne Trust and part of that, since what happened last February, I have had a meeting with the Care Leavers' Association at the back end of last year with a view of how to take the view of the issues at Haut de la Garenne. I fully support the Care Leavers' Association and in fact have been in touch with their social worker and they were in touch with me 2 or 3 weeks ago about again meeting the Trust to discuss the future of Haut de la Garenne. I will leave it at that.

8. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

I would like to ask how would the candidate deal with the high cost of going to see a doctor that prevents many elderly people and families from receiving the medical care they need and require and which would prevent more serious illnesses in the future?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The cost of G.P. visits comes under the remit of Deputy Gorst who administers Social Security, but as I said, prevention is better than cure and preventative medicine has got to be the way forward. If we can keep patients and families out of hospital that can be nothing but good, so prevention is better than cure. We need positive screening, we need to have good primary centres and would work with Deputy Gorst to try and deliver that. There is, I understand, some money in the Health Insurance Fund in the Social Security pot and I think, if I am right, £60-odd million and so, with that, I would like to think that the department and I could work together to make sure that preventative measures are put in place. One suggestion that I had; why not give a free G.P. visit to everybody over the age of 50 or 55 for a regular M.O.T. If we can pick up one disease or one complaint early that can be nothing but positive. [Approbation]

9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

In the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, it appears to imply that Health and Social Services want to take over Family Nursing. What are your views on this?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I have read part of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Family Nursing Services: I have worked well with them over the years and one of their strengths is that they do work and cover issues in the community extremely well, albeit it needs to be changed because we need to look forward to make sure that the service that we put in - whether it is in hospital or especially in the community - is fit for purpose and going really well into the 21st century. Family Nursing Services are the only organisation that cares for families from birth to death, so they have an important part to play and that needs to be continued. They need to be well-funded and perhaps they do need some changes as in every service needs to change when it is moving forward.

10. Senator A. Breckon:

Can the candidate say what she sees as a way forward for elderly services in Jersey? The Deputy of Trinity :

There are many issues there with elderly services. Because of my commitment, I think, to lifelong homes, keeping people at home for however long as possible to me is the most important thing; that people need to be able to maintain their independence for however long is possible. People do want to stay at home and I think with my Planning and Environment hat on, I have stressed the way forward of lifelong homes and it can be just the simple thing of having a wet room so people can have a shower; it is down to that basic but very important level. But then also making sure that if people did need to be admitted into residential or nursing care that it is in a way that they do not need to worry about funding. I would like to work with Deputy Gorst and Social Security to find a way of putting in an insurance scheme into place. If we can do that fairly swiftly - it sounds easy, but I know there are little hurdles - but that must be a way forward; that if someone is in residential nursing care the last thing they want to worry about is if their money is going run out. So we must address those problems and we must do it urgently.

11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

The candidate has said that if she gets elected she will be a good team player and would want to work, first of all, with the senior management. Does the candidate accept that part of the problems within the departments may be the team that the candidate will have to work with and if so, how would the candidate deal with this?

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I said, my first priority is to sit down with everybody and sort out the issues, be it short, medium or long term. That does not only include the senior management team, but includes the political representatives. We all - and I say to this Assembly - have a part to play and a duty of care to making sure that our health service is up-to-date and fit-for-purpose. So working with the management team is going to be important and if changes need to happen then changes will happen. I work in a very quiet unassuming way trying to bring people with me, but rest assured, if change needs to happen, I can and will do it.

12. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

Very much on the same lines as Deputy Maçon. Does the candidate consider that senior management should be responsible and accountable for their department's performance? Would she, if appointed, ensure this was the case within her area of responsibility?

The Deputy of Trinity :

If I am elected, I would have political responsibility. Clear management structures would need to be in place and I know that is one of the issues identified in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. It is going in; sitting down; working as a team; and if change does need to happen, which I am sure it will, then change it will be. With having a proven track record of health care, I come knowing what it is all about and I think that is going to be one of my strengths.

13. Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :

Given that the present Council of Ministers has become, by default, an all-male preserve, does the candidate consider that her presence on the Council will improve its decision-making processes? [Laughter]

The Deputy of Trinity :

Definitely. [Laughter]

14. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

With the recent closing down of the Reciprocal Health Agreement with the United Kingdom, if elected, will the Deputy put in place a private health scheme that the public can contribute to so as it becomes possible to travel to the U.K. with insurance cover as currently people who have certain ailments cannot get health cover? Therefore, would she work to that end?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I remind Members that it was the Department of Health that cancelled that agreement and I suppose there is very little that we can do about it now. But the most important thing I would like to think is let us go and talk to some local insurance companies or U.K. insurance companies and thrash out the problems that are there, and especially for those who have got previous medical problems or are over a certain age, 80 or 82. We need to find a way round that system to make sure that everybody can get some sort of insurance cover, whatever age. If they want to go and see their family in the U.K. or stay with friends or whatever, we do not want to be isolated on this Island, so we need to sit down with insurance companies, thrash out something and need to do it.

15. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary :

Does the Deputy of Trinity agree that there should be a greater emphasis on promoting good health rather than dealing with the results of bad health and if so, how will she ensure that this happens?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Absolutely. Prevention is better than cure and I said, I think the first thing is like having a free G.P. visit to everybody over 50 to have like an MOT can be nothing but a good thing. Prevention is better than cure, as I have said many times, and it needs the funding and to be supported.

16. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier :

The Deputy has mentioned the work that needs to be done around Williamson and the elderly. I wonder what plans, if any, she has to improve the services to young, vulnerable adults and their carers?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I understand that there is a Carers Strategy in place and just about to roll-out and I think that is one of the roles that the Constable of St. Lawrence was championing, and that was a very positive thing; we must not forget about the carers.

The Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . That concludes the period of questioning. [Approbation] I ask the Deputy now to withdraw to another place with the Assistant Greffier. We await the arrival of the second candidate. Well, if Deputy Le Claire has caught his breath, I shall invite him to address the Assembly.

2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Good morning. Before I begin, I would like to wish my colleagues who have also put their names forward for this important position the very best of luck. Such a highly contested election proves that there is a strong desire within the make-up of this Assembly to tackle a difficult position at a challenging time and it can only bode well for the Island and its future and I thank them all for standing in this important election. Policy makers broadly agree on the core objectives that their health care systems should pursue. The list is strikingly straightforward; universal access for all citizens, effective care for better health outcomes, efficient use of resources, high quality services and responsiveness to patients' concerns. It is a formula that resonates across the political spectrum

and one that engenders consensus. The hospital plays a central role in the delivery of health care, yet for too long it has received relatively little attention. In part, this is because hospital reform is regarded as a difficult issue. Hospitals are complex institutions often shrouded in mystique; their distribution and configuration often owe more to the needs of previous generations than to those of today. Hospitals often appear resistant to change, but the demands they face from changing populations, diseases and the need to respond to technological developments and popular expectations are constantly changing. Hospitals are labour-intensive enterprises that depend on their staff to achieve cost effective outcomes for patients. Staff management therefore is a major challenge for hospital managers. The hospital workforce is highly professionalised and contains a multiplicity of occupational groups, who are stratified vertically according to occupation, and horizontally in terms of hierarchical levels. Getting the levels and mix of hospital staff right involves 2 main considerations; first ensuring that the hospital has the appropriate mix of skills for the tasks that need to be undertaken, and secondly ensuring that those employed are well trained and highly motivated. For too long health politicians have treated hospitals as givens. This is hardly surprising. The locations of hospitals, their configurations and the spectrum of activities are typically the result of decisions made so long ago that few can remember how they came about. Today, in making decisions about hospitals, the health policy maker must involve a range of stakeholders; hospital managers, education authorities, professional regulatory bodies, regional development agencies, private companies and consumer groups. The range and diversity of activities undertaken by the hospital are difficult for any one group to comprehend, with myriad complex interconnections and many unwritten rules. Professional independence is guarded jealously with anything seen as an external interference rejected as unacceptable. Faced with these circumstances, many politicians have adopted the path of least resistance. They have concentrated their attention on how money for the hospital system can be raised and left responsibility for spending it with hospital managers and clinicians who, it is assumed, know best. This approach has some merits. Nevertheless, just as war is too important to be left to the Generals, hospital care is too important to be left to hospital managers and health professionals. Hospitals face enormous pressure to meet the immediate needs of all patients who reach their door, while simultaneously balancing this year's budget. This makes it difficult to look to the long-term needs of the entire population that the hospital is serving, taking account of the service provided by external agencies, neighbouring hospitals and by health professionals working in hospital settings. The immediacy of their patients' health needs distracts the attention of the hospital from the needs of future generations and how to ensure adequate investment in facilities, people and knowledge. The pace of work makes it difficult to stand back and assess whether the care that has been provided is as effective as it might be and whether it is being delivered in a way that responds to the legitimate expectations of patients. The focus on healthcare may detract from other important functions of the hospital such as training, research and its broader societal roles. This often involves balancing conflicting incentives and hidden subsidies. In brief, the creation of a modern, appropriately configured hospital requires a co-ordinated effort by those working within the hospital system and those outside it. I would wish, if elected, to create a new service with a rationalised property portfolio that allows for a new hospital-build. In staff development, in the past a basic professional qualification was considered sufficient to allow one to practice until retirement. The rapidly

changing nature of healthcare means that hospital staff need to engage in lifelong learning, not least to retain a basic level of clinical competence. This is necessary to ensure high quality patient care. It is also in the financial interests of the hospitals since hospital employers are increasingly subject to grievances and complaints from patients as well as malpractice suits. Hospitals have a clear responsibility to monitor the care provided by those who work within their walls and to put in place mechanisms to deal with staff who fail to meet such standards. On retention of staff, poor management of staff contributes to a downwards cycle of low morale and stress, often apparent in high rates of short-term sickness, absence and high staff turnover. Salary levels, working conditions and job security are important in both retaining and motivating staff. It can be argued that a pay packet is not the only motivator. It has been found that effective public management performance is more often driven by strong organisational cultures, good management practices and effective communication networks than it is by rules and regulations or procedures and pay scales. People want to feel that the organisation has an important and clear mission and that they are part of this endeavour. Job satisfaction is important in that people should enjoy the work they do and feel it is worthwhile. People should regard themselves as part of a well regarded profession or occupation that has a social status in society. People want recognition and respect from peers and managers for the tasks they do well. These things are important since even when financial resources are very constrained, staff retention and performance can be improved through efforts to create effective organisational cultures, for example, in hospital intensive care units, the best predictors of better patient outcomes are organisational factors such as patient centred culture, strong professional leadership, effective collaboration between staff; an approach to problem- solving. Looking to the future, trends for rapidly developing areas of health technology have implications for the built environment. The miniaturisation of diagnostic equipment, developments in remote diagnostic imaging, minimally invasive surgical procedures and therapeutic interventions whereby drugs are targeted to an organ or a specific cell, these new techniques and equipment mean not only that diagnosis is made easier and safer for patients in a more compact environment but also that the patient and specialist do not have to be in the same location. The challenge facing policy makers is to ensure that hospitals adapt to these changes while continuing to provide welcoming environments that are conducive to physical and mental healing. Being Minister for Health and Social Services is not about micro-managing or running Health and Social Services. Rather, it is about creating a vision for healing a community. Health and Social Services are far too dynamic to control. It is far better that one works with the people, listening to their needs and championing their causes. After all, the vast majority are committed to a vocation to serve their fellow man. I would wish, if elected, to work with Scrutiny at investigating possible partnerships with French health services, I would look at Scrutiny as a critical friend, even if it criticised me or the department and I would champion a public health strategy that embraced environmental concerns.

I thank Members for having listened to me and I ask for their support. The Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . I now invite questions for Deputy Le Claire.

1. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier :

If the Deputy is successful, who will he appoint as his Assistant Ministers? Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I thank the Deputy for the question. If I was successful, I have already indicated to Deputy Martin and the Constable of St. Lawrence that I would ask them if they would be willing to consider remaining in post. I feel that both Members have a good grasp of their portfolios and I think, to be honest, any Minister that is elected today to this role should seek their attention in these important roles.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

What does the candidate see as the crucial management issues and problems that exist within Health and Social Services and how would he go about resolving them?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Well, we do not have time, really, for the analysis that the Deputy has put to me. All we have time for is to reflect upon the vein of his question and, as highlighted in the recent Comptroller and Auditor General's report of April 2009, it is difficult to understand the appropriate ratio of managers and supervisors in the hospital. The Comptroller and Auditor General was unable to compare that with like-for-like in the U.K. so I think a strong organisational review and allowing Scrutiny to work alongside the Minister is called for, including the Comptroller and Auditor General. If elected, I would make certain that the questions that were being asked of me as Minister were answered in a timely fashion. For too far and too long in Scrutiny have members of Scrutiny Panels asked for information and have been kept waiting only to receive partial information, incorrect information or no information at all.

3. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

As much as I admire all candidates that are applying for this post, in recent times the Minister for Health and Social Security has been the most criticised in the Council of Ministers. Does the Deputy believe he has sufficient strength of character for this post and will the Deputy explain how he will lead the department and not be led by the department?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

As I am standing for Health and Social Services, which is a different Ministry, I think I would like to answer it in that vein, if I might, and it is not certainly the Minister for Social Security that I am sure the Member was asking the question. Do I have the character? Well, I ask Members to think about it. When I was 10 I came into this Chamber and at that time I was introduced to the Chamber by the school to see what was happening and I made the conclusion right there and then that I wished to become a Senator in the States of Jersey. I thought, with a modest upbringing, how am I going to be able to do that? I thought at the time, in 1970, the only people that really had a chance were people that had money or a military background of some form and I channelled myself into a military career. I thought choosing to join the Royal Marines was probably one of the best regiments to go in for and I targeted myself for that regiment. I then went on to become a bodyguard in Canada and I worked for Western governments in highly security-related fields for a number of years. I came back to Jersey and stood for the position of Senator, subsequently was elected as a Deputy , stood again, became a Senator, started one political party, left it, started another political party, left it, got re-elected, had enough of parties and if Members do not think this is enough of a character then I really would question what is enough of a character?

4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Can the candidate assure me that he has the time management skills necessary to tackle the broad and demanding portfolio, bearing in mind that since his election to the Planning Applications Panel he has only been able to attend on one occasion for part of the sitting and this is a 2 day a month commitment?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

That  is a really unfortunate question because when I was asked to come on to the Planning Applications Panel I made it quite clear that the first 2 meetings I was unable to attend but I was happy to join. The second meeting I attended I was prepared to be part of; the first day I had missed it due to an invitation by the Minister for Planning and Environment to an important climate change event at the Durrell Organisation, and I was prepared to sit in for the entire day but I was asked to sit out, which was basically suggested by the Constable, and I was encouraged to get to know how a panel worked. I thought that was quite interesting because having been in the States for 10 years, having served on the Human Resources Committee, the Public Services Committee, the Health and Social Services Committee, the Committee of Management for P.E.C.R.S., the Sub- Committee for Ill Health, the Overseas Aid Committee and a number of other committees and panels such as Environment, I have always done my best to attend and involve myself. Time management in this issue though is more about whether or not one is able to commit oneself entirely and not merely turn up at meetings.

5. The Connétable of Grouville :

I have asked this question of the previous candidate and I shall hopefully ask it of the next 2. Because at the moment the cancer patients are being treated in Southampton, we have a problem in that I have had several protestations by parishioners about the cost of airfares for the families visiting them or them coming home at weekends. Health and Social Services, I know, do provide

some form of transport but would he undertake to open negotiations with the monopoly carrier on the route in order to try to get the airfares down for normal family visits or normal patient visits into the Island? Thank you.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I thank the Constable for his question. Recently we saw a Ministerial Decision from the Minister for Economic Development who took a decision to allocate up to £48,000 per investor; a group of investors that had taken some bad economic advice and the payments are being made to those individuals. If we have got time and money to support individuals in need in those circumstances, and if we have got time and money to invest in supporting the airlines with subsidies, then certainly we should have time and money to sit down with the Minister for Economic Development to talk about supporting these families with States funds as he is doing with the airlines and investors who put their money in the wrong places.

6. Senator B.E. Shenton:

If the Deputy is elected as Minister, he will have to operate within a budget. If he finds that he has exceptional funding requirements that would take him outside that budget, would he make the commitment and then seek to find the funding or would he seek to find the funding and then make the commitment?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I think this has been a problem for Health and Social Services since 1999. Depending on what stage of the budget we are in and depending on what the need was and depending on what time of year, I would commit the money and I would ask the managers to come back with the review of the services that we are operating and immediately go to Treasury and Resources to seek extra capital. If I was unsuccessful in attracting that capital, I would come to the States and seek to get that capital; request it from the Minister for Treasury and Resources, from the States. I do not think it is right that we have got £5 million that is divvied-up among other areas of this community and £44 million to go into stimulating the economy when we have urgent need at Health, and over the years my experience has been that Members in charge of the Health and Social Services Committee have been very reluctant to go to the Minister for Treasury and Resources and even more reluctant to come to the States. I certainly would not be putting my associations and friendships with the Council of Ministers ahead of the needs of the patients.

7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

In the recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, it appears that Health and Social Services want to take over Family Nursing. What are your views on this?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Well, I am a bit concerned that the States seems to want to do everything for everybody and I do not know if it is really a case of economies of scale or just control issues. I know that there have always been difficulties with the Health and Social Services Committee and Family Nursing healthcare but I do not think the States needs to or should want to run everything in this Island, and I think the more people that are involved in a private capacity, the better. So, unless there was some compelling case to take over that organisation, mainly in my view due to malpractice or patient safety, then I would encourage them and assist them to keep them going because I am certain that those people are important components of a modern health service.

8. Senator A. Breckon:

Can the candidate say what he sees as an effective way forward for an elderly services and care strategy?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

That is a difficult question. As I said, if I was elected, I would ask the Constable of St. Lawrence to assist me as Assistant Minister. If she was able to feel that she was inclined to do so, the first thing I would do would be to sit down with her and hopefully the other Assistant Minister; Deputy Martin, and look at these issues that are outlined in the long-term care of the elderly and the response of the Minister for Housing, most recently. The response of the Minister for Housing for long-term care of the elderly was embargoed until 20th  April. Quite honestly, to move this forwards, I think we need to have around the table some important players. Those are obviously the Minister for Housing, the Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Assistant Ministers at Health and Social Services and, importantly, the Minister for Planning and Environment. We have to make sure that we plan for the future, we build for the future and we make sure - we have to make sure - that the elderly are in a position where their lives will be meaningful, productive, well catered for, safe and secure. Planning for the future is the first step; implementing the plan is the second.

9. Deputy A.K.F. Green:

The candidate mentioned a great deal around the work in the hospital, the acute services and such like; not very much around the social services and I would like to hear his plans in particular in relation to children and Williamson for vulnerable young adults and their carers. He has already covered the elderly, thank you.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Well, this is an area where the States of Jersey has a very, very difficult task. As Members know, I have a proposition laid before the Assembly to seek funding for 3 children to go off-Island. Three children alone with anticipated costs that would consume the entire social budget of the Health and Social Services Committee; £154 million a year is targeted towards this department and I am sorry to say, from my experience, for far too long Social Services and Children's Services have taken very much a back seat. We need to invest today in the children and the services that they need so that we can head off at the pass the extremely expensive services they will need if we fail them. Not only that; not only will we be doing the right thing there but also pragmatically we will be heading off the law suits that will follow.

10. Deputy A.E. Jeune :

In his speech, the candidate talked of the structure of Health Services. Would he please give his views on what he sees as core and non-core services and, if appointed, how he would deal with the 2?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Well, core services in an Island situation are those that provide enough care where possible in the resources that we have to deliver a high quality of care to the patients that present themselves through the doctors and through the emergency units. It is also wise to recognise that part of that core service is identifying a system that places those that we cannot look after into positions and authorities and hospitals outside of the jurisdiction. So, those are the core issues. I could get into them in minutia but I will not. The non-core issues that I feel that Health involve themselves in, really, you have to look at the broader context of what Health does, and at Social Services. I think, from a number of meetings and considerations on this issue of non-core services over the years, that the Health and Social Services Committees of the past and the Ministers of the present have been struggling with budgets and struggling with the services, and every time the budgets are constrained they look to cut the services or look to cut the supports. I think, really, it is important to have things that we can afford and investment in prevention, so a strong emphasis on public health. I championed the tobacco  strategy and  most  recently, I  implemented the rear  seatbelt strategy. Prevention is far better than cure and that should be our core focus. The non-core focus will fall away if we concentrate on the core.

11. The Connétable of St. Helier :

If elected, will the Deputy investigate the possibility of making the environmental health function of the department more independent, possibly working in conjunction with Guernsey?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is something that I would investigate. It has been mentioned to me not only by the Constable of St. Helier but also by Deputy Duhamel and I think if there is some rationale from an independent commission for the environment, then perhaps that is the way to go. I feel, so far, from my experience in the Planning Department and on Environment Scrutiny and on Health, that the environment takes second place and environmental health certainly takes second place to the strategic aims and objectives and pressures of the States of Jersey. That is not good enough. From a health perspective we should be more concerned about the environment, we should be more concerned about human health and the impact that the States are having on those. So, an investigation with other authorities to see if we can commission an independent commission to monitor and regulate these things I think is something that could save us money, and may improve the environmental health service as a whole. That does not mean that we would automatically remove the higher echelons of public health officers; the Medical Officer for Health, for example, is an important core role within Social Services and Health and those types of people need to be on board, they need to be independent, they need to be able to speak out but they also need to be part of Government.

12. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

Bearing in mind the answers you have just given to Deputy Green's and Deputy Jeune 's questions, with Williamson, if elected, will you be looking to seek full funding, including the advocacy and the extra staffing that is required?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Yes, as I pointed out earlier, I think that there needs to be investment now and I think if we invest properly now in the services that we can achieve, then we will save money in the future. I do not think that we are wise to consider that we have the capacity to create units for every child in the Island that has various historic problems or current problems. Some children, maybe 10 per cent or so, will need to go off-Island. That will need isolated funding but for those children that can remain on-Island next to their families, next to their loved ones, if they can remain on-Island, then the support services and mechanisms around those, as indicated by Williamson and also by Deputy Southern 's amendment, need to be supported as a whole package and that is why I was not willing to rush through a short-term solution.

13. The Deputy of St. John :

With the recent closing down of the Reciprocal Health Agreement with the United Kingdom, if elected, will the Deputy put in place a private health scheme that the public can contribute to so that it becomes possible to travel to the U.K. with insurance cover, given that currently people who have certain ailments cannot get insurance cover? Will he give us an indication of his views on putting a system in place?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

That is a very interesting question. The United States of America has comprehensive healthcare policies for underprivileged children who cannot afford to have the insurance and for the elderly and they take those issues on board because there is such a large group of uninsured people in the United States, but they catch the people that are unable to get the insurance that need it. So, we could do a similar thing. We could introduce a healthcare policy for insurance and I think that is going to be part of the poisoned chalice that any of us as candidates will receive. We will need to start taking contributions from Islanders to put towards that fund and I think that that fund needs to make sure that it is catered for in underwriting specific needs of the community so that the elderly are able to access the things that they need and the young are able to access their need and the policies should reflect those things. So, the overall insurance policy would, by design, allow for those that cannot receive insurance to be able to travel with insurance, under that system.

14. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If elected, what commitment would the candidate give towards the implementing of a whistle- blowing procedure within the Health and Social Services Department?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I thank the Deputy for his question. Whistle-blowing and reporting from the floor to politicians is an important mechanism for making sure that things that are problems are addressed. The current Minister or the previous Minister says that there is a whistle-blowing policy ready to table. I would make it my highest priority to ensure that members of the staff of the Health and Social Services Department in Jersey would have no fear to come to a whistle-blowing policy that would be robust, protect their interests and make certain that their futures are not jeopardised for coming forward for the benefit of the community.

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Deputy , if you would be kind enough to withdraw? I call upon Deputy Southern to address the Assembly.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

On my way into work today I had 2 passing comments made to me; one by a member of the public who said: "Good luck to you; get on with it" and another by a Member of the States who said: "Why did you choose to stand?" So, why stand? I was forced to stand when I realised that of the candidates already named I did not feel I could vote for any of them and the solution to that is either put "M. Mouse" on the ballot paper and spoil it or stand yourself. So I am here. I am here somewhat trepidatiously - now there is a word - because obviously any newcomer to this post; we are talking about £150 million of spending and we are talking over 3,000 staff, could not possibly claim to know anywhere near enough to do the job today but tomorrow is a different thing. However, Members who have known me over my 7 years in the States will be aware that I have a reputation for doing my homework and for doing my homework well and quickly. In my time on Scrutiny, on Economic Affairs in particular, I do believe I have got a good hold on my brief, as Ministers will know. Even in my brief time at the moment on the Health, Social Services and Housing Scrutiny Panel I am already coming to grips with some of the issues particularly relevant to health, but Members will be aware that my preoccupation for some time has been slightly away from health issues and into the related but separate social security issues and, in particular, income support. So, I do not claim to know everything and I do not claim to know detail. What I can claim to do is to be able to do my homework and master my brief in given time. What else do I know? Well, I know for certain that the Council of Ministers, despite the best intentions of the Chief Minister is far, far from inclusive and I think that it has to be inclusive and it is important because what happens if you do not get an inclusive body of Ministers joined together to create policy, what you tend to get is group-think. A dominant personality or 2 leads and less experienced colleagues around him never challenge and that leads to bad planning and bad thinking. If Members agree with me that that is a danger, and may actually be happening - and I believe it is - then perhaps the best thing they can do is add some spice to the Council of Ministers; somebody who is prepared to think differently, put up alternatives and to challenge and that, I would think, is certainly me. What happens in particular is that Ministers tend to be led by their Chief Executive Officers and certainly there is evidence that that is happening increasingly under Ministerial government. Certainly it would be my intention not to be led by the nose by a Chief Executive Officer, to clearly distinguish

between that which is policy and that which is priority, decide it politically and operational issues but I will not be hiding behind operational issues when the buck is passed. It is important that politicians stand up and be counted and be held accountable. In that sense, what I am interested in is not reasons why I cannot do x as a Minister; what I will be asking is: "Show me 3 ways I can achieve x and give me the pros and cons" and that way we can make sound decisions. Once those decisions are made, we will stick that through; we will put that through. So, what will you be voting for if you vote for me? I believe you will be voting for a strong voice to fight the corner of funding for Health and Social Services. With the anticipated revenue drops in the next couple of years, that is going to be a very difficult job. But Health and Social Services spending will not reduce along with revenue; it will continue on its upward spiral. It needs somebody strong there to fight that corner. I believe, after 7 years in the States, I have that strength. What is going wrong has been exemplified by the way in which the Williamson Plan came to the States; not as a plan but as an Implementation Plan with the funding to be discussed but not the issues. Now, whoever made that decision I believe lacked completely in political nous. That was bound to fail. You cannot do that to this House. If there is one thing I have learnt in 7 years; Ministers should not be trying it. This House can hold Ministers to account and we have seen what has happened with that. What was worse is that, under pressure, I believe, from the Minister for Treasury and Resources, the Minister of the moment folded. He watered down the plan - the Implementation Plan - he took out the Laming proposals, which may or may not, but I believe will, be essential in terms of delivering the plan and he also took out one of the best, those small bits of it which was the plan for advocacy and listening to children. Under pressure from Treasury and Resources, he folded. That is not the sort of leadership we need over the next 2 to 3 years. So, what else have I learnt in those 7 years? I have learnt that it is absolutely vital to build a proper team. Listening and respecting the views of others is absolutely vital and certainly on any of my Scrutiny teams I have endeavoured to do that, and I believe I have achieved a remarkable strength on my particular panels by doing exactly that but that does not mean not coming to decisions. I have also learnt how to run effective meetings and that meetings are always about making decisions and the subsequent actions. You can listen for a while so that people feel satisfied that they have had their opinion heard but then you have to get on with making decisions and doing actions. It is not endless waffle. In terms of delivering on those decisions I believe I have managed to do that as well quite effectively. On economic development, in particular with the telecoms report, with income support, delivery, deadlines met, I am aware of doing that. So, what are the jobs to be done? I have mentioned already the funding issue and I have said that I will fight the corner as strongly as I can and that will be vital. In particular one of the main funding issues is the direction - the New Directions - for the way ahead which will require substantial input if it is going to be delivered. It is about prevention rather than cure, and healthy choices. That requires teamwork across departments, it requires reduction or it aims at a reduction of chronic disease such as diabetes and depression, supporting the elderly in their homes; expensive stuff. Williamson also needs to be delivered and that will require not just strength but team-building. I believe I have created excellent relationships with the officers who have worked with me. I can do that again, I believe. They will go the extra mile for me. I have already asked the 2 Assistant Ministers whether they would be content to work with me. I certainly trust them and I would want to keep them in position and, finally, staff. Staff morale in Health and Social Services, I believe is at an all time low. It needs building up. That requires people there to listen. It requires, for example, a whistle-blowing policy, a safe whistle-blowing policy in place

and building staff relations is absolutely important.

The Bailiff :

Thank you, Deputy . Your time has expired, thank you. Now the time for questioning. Deputy S. Pitman:

May I make an observation for question time? There are only 2 Ministers in this room; the Chief Minister and the Deputy Chief Minister are out of this room and we are choosing our Minister for Health and Social Services.

Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement :

Sorry, Sir, if an observation is being made I think it should at least be correct. There are 4 Ministers present.

Deputy S. Pitman:

Sorry, Sir.

The Bailiff :

The point has been made, Deputy .

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The candidate touched on this just as he got to the end of his speech but, if elected, what commitment would the candidate give towards implementing a whistle-blowing procedure within the Health and Social Services Department?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I believe whistle-blowing and the ability to communicate with the authorities in a safe way is absolutely essential within any organisation. It is absolutely essential certainly within Health and Social Services where issues that affect literally life and death are an issue and that staff must feel comfortable and safe in their ability to report incidents to a safe body. That must happen and it must happen straight away. There is also a place, and it must happen, for an appeals independent