States Meeting Transcript - 06/12/2010

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

MONDAY, 6th DECEMBER 2010

QUESTIONS......................................................................................7

1. Written Questions........................................................................7

1. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE HEALTH REVIEW: ..................................7
2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING EXTERNAL INCOME SUPPORT ADVISERS: ...........8
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING ENERGY SUPPLIERS: ..............................8
4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING RENTAL ACCOMMODATION:......................................10
5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING ONCOLOGY SERVICES:................12

7. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING HUMAN RESOURCES STAFFING:..............14
8. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING ENERGY SAVING TARGETS:.............................................................................14
9. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING CORRESPONDENCE WITH BOAT OWNERS:...15
10. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE LOAD ON, LOAD OFF' SERVICE:.........15
11. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GOREY HARBOUR REPAIRS:....................16

1.11 SENATOR A. BRECKON OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING SOCIAL SECURITY CARD REGISTRATIONS:......................16

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................17

2.1 Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding investigation of the previous management of Haut de la Garenne:..........................................17 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................17

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................19

3. The Chief Minister - a statement regarding the Historical Child Abuse Inquiry......19

3.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................19

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................20
2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................20
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................20
4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................20
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................21

6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................21
7. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................21
8. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................21
9. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................21
10. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:...................................................22
11. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................22
12. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : ..............................................22
13. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................22
14. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................23

QUESTIONS - resumption......................................................................23

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................23

1. The Deputy of St. John of the Minister for Economic Development regarding repairs to the Duke of Normandy: ................................................................23 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................23

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................24
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................24
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................24
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................24
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................25

2. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding investigations into allegations against staff at the Education, Sport and Culture Department:............................................................................25 Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..............25

1. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................25
2. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................25
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................26
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................26
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................26
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................26
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................26
8. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................27
9. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................27

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding an increased rate of taxation for those earning over £100,000: .......................................27 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................27

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................27
2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................28
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................29
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................29
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................29

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the new baggage handling system at Jersey Airport:............................................30 Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):..........30

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................30
2. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:......................................................30
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................31

5. Deputy A.E. Jeune of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding a function report pertaining to the Health and Social Services Department:........................31

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................31

1. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................31
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................32
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................32
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................32
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32
7. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................33
8. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................33

6. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding lowering the G.S.T. de minimis waiver to £6:...........................................33 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................33

1. Senator F. du H. Gresley:...............................................................34
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................34

7. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the maintenance of departmental contingency funds:.......................................34 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................34

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................35
2. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................35
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................35
4. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................36
5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................36
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................36

8. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour the Minister for Economic Development regarding the U.K. Lottery:...........................................................................37 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................37

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................37
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................37
3. Deputy A.T. Dupré of St. Clement:.....................................................38
4. Deputy J.B. Fox:........................................................................38
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................38
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................38

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding: under-spends of £10,000 or more within the different departments of Health and Social Services................................................................................39 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................39

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................39
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................39
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................39
4. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................39

5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................40
6. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................40
7. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................40
8. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................40
9. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................41
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................41
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
12. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
13. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
14. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42

15. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
16. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................42
17. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................42

10. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the sale of States vehicles:.........................................................................43 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................43

1. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................43
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................43
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................44
4. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................44
5. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................45
6. Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John : ................................................45
7. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................45
8. Deputy D.J. De Sousa: ..............................................................45

11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Economic Development regarding staffing at Jersey Airport in the human Resources and Marketing sections: ........................46 Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):..........46

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................46
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................47
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................47

12. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding the Napier Report: ...............47 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................48

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................48
2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................48
3. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................48
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................48

13. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding the present complaints procedure: ..............................................................................48 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................48

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................49
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................49
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................49
4. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:....................................................49
5. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................50
6. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................50
7. Senator A. Breckon:.................................................................51
8. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................51
9. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................51
10. The Deputy of St. Mary:...........................................................51
11. The Deputy of St. Martin:..........................................................52

5. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services..................................................................................52

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................52 Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): .........................................................................................52

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................52
   2. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................53

5.2.1 The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................53

3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................53
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................53
5. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................53

5.5.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................54

6. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................54
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................54

5.7.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................54

8. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................55
9. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................55
10. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................55

6. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Chief Minister..........................55

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................56 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................56
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................56
3. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................56
4. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................56

6.4.1 The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................57

5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................57
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................57

6.6.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................57

7. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................58
8. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................58
9. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................58
10. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................58
11. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................59
12. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................59

6.12.1 Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................60

STATEMENTS OF MATTERS OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY.........................60

7. The Chairman of the Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel will make a statement regarding P.143/2010 (Draft Employment (Amendment No. 6) (Jersey) Law 201-)......................................................................................60

7.1 Deputy G.P. Southern (Chairman, Health, Social Security and Housing Panel):........60

1. Connétable P.F.M. Hanning of St. Saviour : ............................................61
2. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................61
3. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................61
4. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................62
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................62
6. The Connétable of St. Ouen:............................................................62
7. Deputy I.J. Gorst : ......................................................................62

7.1.9 The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................63

8. The Minister for Treasury and Resources will make a statement about St. Martin 's School....................................................................................63

8.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................63

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................64
2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:..................................................................64
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................65
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................65
5. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................65
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................65
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................66
8. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................66

9. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................66
10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................66

9. The Minister for Transport and Technical Services will make a statement about the extreme weather conditions.............................................................67

9.1 The Connétable of St. Brelade (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):...67

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................68
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................68
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................68
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................68
5. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................69
6. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................69
7. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................69
8. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:...................................................69
9. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................69

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................70

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

[14:30]

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE HEALTH REVIEW:

Question

Following the recent appointment of a new Chief Executive of the Health and Social Services Department would the Minister inform members –

1. whether she as Minister was partofthe appointment process for the Chief Executive andwhethershewaspartofthe interview panel and, if not, would she inform members who sat on the panel and give the reasons why she did not take part in this most important process?
2. why it has been necessary in such a short period of time to bring in consultants at a cost of some £760,000 if the new Chief Executive was selected because of her experience in other health services and would sheexplainwhytheproposedreview could not be undertaken by the Chief Executive?

Would the Minister give details of the qualifications of the Chief Executive and state what role, if any, she will play in this review and will she also inform members who wrote the terms of reference of the review to be carried out by KPMG and what input, if any, the Chief Executive had in writing those terms of reference?

Answer

1. I can confirm that I played a full part in the appointment process for the Chief Executive including as a member of the interview panel.
2. It was clearly identified as part of the Independent CSR Review Report published thisOctoberthat the current system of health and social services required an urgent and detailed review in order to secure a safe, sustainable and affordable health and social care system fit for the 21st century. Thisis a complex and detailed piece of work which needs to be completed over a period of some 9 months. Toundertake this project a wide range of skills and expertise are required. These include specialist skills such as data modelling, scenario development and testing and financial analysis and planning.

The proposed review could not be undertaken by the Chief Executive as she is required to oversee all activities of the Health & Social Services Department and would not have either the personal capacity or the capacity within her team to deliver this project in the timeframe available. Nor would it be reasonable to expect the Chief Executive, or her team, to have the specialist and scarce skills sets identified above.

The Chief Executive is, however, the Senior Responsible Officer for this Project and the author of the terms of reference that were authorised by the Ministerial Oversight Group comprising of the Chief Minister, the Treasury and Resources Minister, the Social Security Minister and myself.

The Chief Executive has extensive experience in the delivery and commissioning of health and social care services previously being the Chief Executive Officer of NHS Norfolk, one of the largest Primary Care Trusts in England. She has over 20 years' experience in Board level positions including 11 years as a Chief Executive.

The Chief Executive for Health and Social Services was awarded an MA by St Andrew's University in 1982 and an MBA by Henley, The Management College/Brunel University, in 1993. She also has a professional Diploma in Health Services Management.

2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING EXTERNAL INCOME SUPPORT ADVISERS:

Question

Will the Minister inform members who have been appointed as external advisors on the review of Income Support along with details of their qualifications/experience in this field? Will he confirm whether he would be prepared to re-visit the terms of reference to consider the inclusion of the following –

1. Potential interaction of Income Support, earnings and income tax thresholds;
2. Treatment of over/under payments of benefit;
3. Overall coverage of potential claimants/take-up rates?

Answer

As previously set out, the review of Income Support will cover all significant aspects of this benefit.

The Department is making use of external advice as appropriate. The employment review is already under way and a small team from the well respected International Centre for Public and Social Policy (based at the University of Nottingham) is assisting with this task. The communications review has also started and is being supported by the States Communications Unit working with specialist advisers from the UK Department of Work and Pensions. The Housing Department is currently finalising the tender process to appoint external advisers for the Housing Transformation Programme, which includes a review of the interface between social housing provision and Income Support. Further advisers will be recruited during 2011 as other aspects of the review are developed.

The potential interaction of Income Support, earnings and Income Tax thresholds will be considered as part of the overall review of benefit levels. As this topic is also included in the current HSSH panel review of Income Support, the findings of the Panel will be incorporated into the departmental review. The treatment of over and under payment of benefit is an administrative issue which will be addressed as part of the review of Income Support administration. The overall coverage of potential claimants and take-up rates will be considered as part of the analysis of the household income distribution survey recently completed by the Statistics Unit.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING ENERGY SUPPLIERS:

Question

In the light of the recent announcement of an investigation into the increase in profit levels of energy suppliers in the UK, will the Minister inform members what profit levels exist locally, whether profit margins have grown in recent years, and what powers, if any, he has to regulate and control profit margins locally?

Answer

On 26th November, Ofgem (the UK Office of the Gas and Electricity Markets) announced that its latest review of retail prices from UK energy suppliers indicated that margins had increased to approximately £90, an increase of about 38% from September. This will require further analysis, similar  in  nature  to  the  one  performed  by  EDD,  when  an  increase  in  electricity  prices  was challenged by Senator Breckon in 2009.

Disclosure of profits in the local energy market

The availability of information on energy company profits in the UK and Jersey is connected to their level of disclose, which in turn is affected by their stock market status (or lack thereof) and their corporate structure.

The majority of local suppliers of energy are not listed on a stock market in their own right, and are integral elements of larger organisations, and so do not produce individual financial results. This means that their level of profit cannot be exactly identified.

Unfortunately, this means that the question posed by Deputy Southern cannot be fully answered.

The Jersey Electricity Company (JEC), however, is listed on the stock market in its own right and therefore produces detailed financial statements, exerts from which are included below.

Profits of energy suppliers

Jersey Gas is a major supplier of energy to Islanders. It has since the 1990s been part of a larger group of energy companies, (initially IEG and then later Prime Infrastructure). These groups report profits and apply many costs as a whole, and so no specific Jersey-only profit figures have been available since Jersey Gas was a separate company.

This means that no profit level for Jersey Gas can be determined. However, the company has reported to the Economic Development Department that it has not seen an increase in profit trends in real terms in recent years (although it acknowledges that its profits fluctuate from year to year). The company also notes that the price of liquefied petroleum gas is currently at record levels, which is affecting the price to consumers.

The companies supplying petroleum and heating oils are in a similar situation, inasmuch as part of larger groups they do not report their profits individually. It is not therefore possible to determine the exact margin which they charge on energy supplies.

As noted above, a great deal is known about the profitability of the JEC. In the last published accounts of the JEC its Energy business profits moved up by 6% from £6.3m to £6.7m. In January 2010 the JEC reduced its tariffs to customers by 5% and recently announced a freeze in its tariffs until at least 2012.

The recently announced movements in energy prices for four out of the top six energy suppliers in the UK were as follows:

Source – UK press/company websites

In general terms the JEC seeks to achieve a return on assets invested of around 7% which is required to fund Island infrastructure needs and its tariff comparisons with other areas, as at July 2010, prior to the recent UK rises, was as follows:

Domestic single rate customer using 3,750 kWh p.a.

Source - IPA

Powers of the Minister to regulate profit levels

The Minister has no direct powers to control the profit levels that are generated by the energy suppliers. However, the Jersey Competition Regulatory Authority (JCRA) has powers under the Competition (Jersey) Law 2005' (Part 3) to take measures to stop companies abusing a dominant position. Were it to be established that excess profits were being generated by a monopoly energy supplier in the local market, this would fall within the definition of such abuse.

The States Assembly itself has powers to affect the tariffs of both electricity and gas under the Electricity (Jersey) Law 1937' (Article 22) and the Jersey Gas Company (Jersey) Law 1989' (Article 89) respectively.

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING RENTAL ACCOMMODATION:

Question

Will the Minister inform members what the total provision of accommodation for social rental housing for single  persons  or  couples  without  children  exists  in  the  public  and  housing  trust  sectors,  giving  the proportions of bedsits' and 1-bed flats in each? Is the Minister aware of the equivalent figures for private sector  rentals?  Will  the  Minister  further  indicate  what  levels  of  provision  of  new  units  of  single accommodation are planned over the coming 2-year period? What policy, if any, does the Minister have over the provision of bedsit' accommodation in the public sector?

Answer

The Allocations Policy for States rental homes generally excludes single people or couples under 50 years of age, without children or serious medical conditions, from qualifying for social housing. This is to ensure that the stock is used for those most in need.

The numbers of bedsits and 1 bedroom flats in each of the public and Housing Trust sectors is set out in the table below.

The Housing

Departme nt does not regulate or monitor the private rented sector  and I  have  no reliable evidence of  the numbers of  such accommod

ation types.

The delivery of new accommodation is overseen by the Planning & environment Department and they have been able to confirm the following supply of bedsit and 1 bedroom accommodation.

It should of course be noted that just because a development has planning permission doesn't guarantee that it will be developed, let alone developed in a short time frame.

As for future policy on bedsits in the social sector. Bedsits do I am sure have their place, albeit that I believe, it should be limited. It is fair to say that as a form of long term housing they do suffer from  limitations,  particularly  for  couples,  and  offer  minimal  living  space and  privacy.   The development of bedsits should not feature in new build social housing schemes. Where they are already present on existing sites my Department will actively seek to improve them so that they offer full 1 bedroom flat standards. This might sometimes, but not always, necessitate that 2 bedsits be converted into 1 larger more suitable home.

5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING ONCOLOGY SERVICES:

Question

Will the Minister inform members what progress has been made in improving delivery of treatment in the oncology service, and in particular –

1. In refurbishment and modernization of the facilities; and
2. In ensuring that the funding of the service has been protected from CSR reductions?

Will she further inform members what current waiting lists and times exist for oncology treatment both on and off-island?

Answer

Given the ongoing and increasing demand for Oncology services and advances in new drug and chemotherapy protocols, the service regularly reviews the treatment regimes given to individual patients, both locally and in the UK. Two additional chemotherapy nurses and a middle grade doctor were appointed in 2007 and 2010 respectively to provide added support for the service.

The present Oncology Unit was opened in 1995. Since that time the continuing rise in clinical activity has meant that the service has now outgrown its current footprint. Plans are in development to provide larger and more appropriate facilities for this service in 2011.

I am pleased to confirm that the Oncology Service has not been affected by the Comprehensive Service Review (CSR).

I can also confirm that currently no patients are held on a waiting list pending local treatment. Patients requiring specialist treatment are referred to appropriate tertiary centres in the UK and are managed within UK national guidelines for such treatments. These patients are fully supported by specialist liaison nurses who monitor their progress along their particular clinical pathway and ensure that they are followed up upon their return to the Island.

6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING ZERO/TEN:

Question

Will the Minister inform members how the deemed distribution provision under Jersey's Zero/Ten tax system can comply with tests 1 and 2 of the EU code on Business Taxation, given -

1. Whether advantages are accorded only to non-residents or in respect of transactions carried out with non-residents;
2. Whether advantages are ring-fenced from the domestic market, so they do not affect the national tax base;
3. Whether advantages are granted even without any real economic activity and substantial economic presence within the Member State offering such tax advantages.

Will he further state how the application of the zero rate to International Business Companies (IBC) accords with test 3?

The Minister stated the following in his press release on 23rd November 2010 -

"Jersey has been told that there was consensus on the part of Code Group members in support of the Commission's paper and that the present 0/10 regime, as it stands, was harmful."

Given the continuing controversy over zero/ten, does the Minister believe his actions have produced stability in business taxation matters?

Will the Minister inform members what "alternative anti-avoidance measures" to the use of deemed distribution he has under consideration which might comply with the Code?

Answer

Jersey's position continues to be that the deemed distribution regime does not fall within the scope of the EU Code of Conduct on Business Taxation, as they are a personal tax measure. The tests contained within the Code do not therefore apply.

Companies that are subject to the International Business Company (IBC) regime are subject to tax at rates of 30% on their Jersey-source income and rates of between 2% and 0.5% on income sourced outside the Island. Jersey has committed to phase out the IBC regime. No new IBCs have been permitted since 2006, while existing IBCs may continue to claim the status until 2011. After that date, existing IBCs will be taxed under the zero/ten regime. It is anticipated that the majority of these companies will be subject to the 10% rate of company tax.

Jersey's business community and its residents need to be certain that whatever action is taken in response to the EU Code Group review has been carefully considered, and its implications fully understood. The Minister for Treasury and Resources is taking steps to ensure that this is done, by continuing to engage with the EU, and through the ongoing Business Tax Review. Failure to do so would be irresponsible and would certainly cause instability.

It will not be possible to say for certain what action, if any, needs to be taken in response to the EU Code Group's review until the Code Group comes to a firm conclusion on zero/ten. This is unlikely to be before February 2011 at the earliest. It would therefore be premature to speculate on possible actions before then.

7. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING HUMAN RESOURCES STAFFING:

Question

What was the total number of FTE's for human resource posts 5 years ago and what is the number now in the light of the policy of centralising the function? Where have the savings, if any, been made?

Answer

At the end of 2005, the total number of FTE's for HR was 63.8 across the States. However, this did not take account that of part time roles undertaken by secretaries and administrative assistants in departments who undertook some HR administrative tasks.

The HR establishment as noted in the 2010 Business Plan is 57.8 FTEs. During this period 6 FTE posts have been saved, achieved as a result of combining HR functions such as HR administrative support which is centralised in the Business Support Team.

8. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING ENERGY SAVING TARGETS:

Question

What energy savings targets, if any, have been set for the year 2011 for each of the secondary institutions under the aegis of the Education, Sport and Culture Department?

Answer

We are not in a position at this stage to set energy targets for individual schools, however Property Holdings is currently considering options in the context of energy management across the States. The Education, Sport and Culture department looks forward to taking part in that process and working with Property Holdings to implement any measures to reduce energy consumption in all facilities under the aegis of the department, including all schools.

As far as the schools are concerned, energy costs represent a significant element of their budgets, and it is therefore in the interests of the head teachers to ensure that heating costs are minimised.

Pending any changes in States energy management, consumption of water, gas and electricity is monitored by each school on a monthly or quarterly basis dependent on billing arrangements with the suppliers. The consumption of heating oil is rather more difficult to track with complete accuracy, as fuel tanks tend to be filled up when they are becoming empty, rather than at regular times during the year.

A trial study on energy consumption in a number of schools has recently been carried out by Property Holdings. The heating energy used for a given floor area and the electrical energy (small power and lighting) used for a given floor area was compared to benchmark figures available. It is now planned to extend this study to all States schools and colleges.

In general it was found that the heating performance of Jersey schools is good and the electrical performance average.

9. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING CORRESPONDENCE WITH BOAT OWNERS: Question

Will the Minister explain why he has not responded to letters or e mails from Marine Leisure Growth Group members St Helier Boat Owners Association dated 16th February, 18th March, 22nd March and 24th September 2010 given that his department requested consultation, and would he explain how this contributes to a good working relationship?

Will the Minister give details of how many items of correspondence are outstanding or are awaiting a reply to all the members of the Marine Leisure Growth Group for longer than 9 months, longer than 6 months, longer than 3 months, or longer than 28 days?

Answer

I would like to thank the Deputy of St John for bringing this matter to my attention. I have indeed been remiss in responding to a letter from the Chairman of the St Helier Boat Owners Association.

I have however spoken to the Chairman and I have invited him to meet with me.

I am only aware of one piece of written correspondence that requires an answer although email reminders regarding this letter have been received.

I would like to point out to members that my Assistant Minister with responsibility for Harbours & Airport and Jersey Harbours have made great efforts to improve communication with boat owners and other harbour stakeholders.

Jersey Harbours have regular meetings with the Chairman of the St Helier Boat Owners Association as they do with all such associations.

10. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE LOAD ON, LOAD OFF' SERVICE:

Question

Will the Minister explain whether or not the lo-lo' (load on, load off) operation is to move to la Collette from the New North Quay, and if so, when is this planned for?

Answer

At this time, there is nothing in the agreed Jersey Harbours Business Plan to relocate the Lo Lo port operation from the New North Quay to La Collette. Concept plans have been discussed, but no firm plans have been made.

Any such plans would be subject to public consultation and indeed normal planning procedures in due course should any such concept be taken forward.

11. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING GOREY HARBOUR REPAIRS:

Question

Will the Minister confirm what contribution the States are making to his department's budget in respect of the cost of repairs at St. Aubin's Harbour (at a cost of £1.2 million) and also at Gorey Harbour (at additional cost), which are both historic monuments, and if there is none, would he explain why?

Answer

The States have made a contribution of £150,000 to the Jersey Harbours Trading Fund in respect of the St Aubin's project as detailed in MD-TR-2009-0142 dated 2nd September 2009 for £70,000 and MD-TR-2010-0020 dated 25th January 2010 for £80,000.

The total project budget is £1.602 million further to MD-TR-2010-0163 dated 23rd November 2010 which is to be funded from the Jersey Harbours Trading Fund.

The total project budget for the Gorey Harbour project is £2.966 million scheduled for 2012. This was to be funded by the States as detailed in the States of Jersey Annual Business Plan 2011 (page 38).

As a result of discussions with the Treasury and Resources Department, it is proposed in Part B of the Expenditure Proposals for 2012 and 2013 that central funding is removed.

1.11 SENATOR A. BRECKON OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING SOCIAL SECURITY CARD REGISTRATIONS:

Question

Can the Minister provide details, on a monthly basis from January 2005 to date of –

1. the number of new or re-issued Jersey Social Security Registration cards issued to applicants;
2. the country or place of origin of those issued with cards; and
3. those retiring or leaving the Island and handing back cards.

Answer

The table below provides information on an annual basis of individuals registered, re-registered and de-registered, categorised by British, European Union and other. If the Senator would like more detailed information it can be provided separately. For example, the Department has registered individuals from more than 50 jurisdictions during this time.

Please note that:

• British nationality includes those holding Jersey passports
• Registration numbers include children and babies as well as adults registering for work and students studying off island
• There is no formal procedure for a local resident to return a Social Security card when they retire

• Exit data is derived both from individuals returning cards but also through an administrative process  whereby  individuals  are  de-registered  if  they  fail  to  make  contributions  or  claim benefits over a given period.

2. Oral Questions

2.1 Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Chief  Minister regarding investigation of the previous management of Haut de la Garenne:

Now that the States Police have advised that there are unlikely to be further prosecutions emanating from the historic child abuse investigations at Haut de la Garenne, will the Chief Minister inform Members what actions, if any, have been arranged to investigate the management of Haut de la Garenne during the periods when recent convictions have shown that children were being abused?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

I am due later in this session to make a statement in respect of the historical child abuse inquiry. I wonder if it might be simpler for me to make that statement now because questions 1 and 3 will effectively refer to that statement and if we do not answer their questions now I will answer them at

that time and it may be more beneficial to the States Assembly to deal with the statement. I leave it to you, Sir.

The Bailiff :

First of all, just before we go on to that, the filming is meant to have stopped now. Well it is a matter for Members. We have hardly started question time so we could start again if Members would prefer to take the Chief Minister's statement  at this stage.   It is a  matter  entirely  for Members.

Senator A. Breckon:

I do not appear to have it on my desk, I have the other 2 statements but I do not appear to have that, I do not know if other Members have got it.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

It can be circulated, as far as I am concerned it is the Greffier's hands. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

Given that the Chief Minister appears to want to hijack the questions, the idea was to come in half a day earlier to deal with questions. I believe his statement should come at the end of questions once everything is done.

The Bailiff :

Well it is a matter entirely for Members. Does anyone wish to propose that we take the Chief Minister's statement now, or not?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, I am prepared to propose that because I believe it will help with informing the questions. The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Very well, if you wish to take the Chief Minister's statement on Haut de la Garenne now then we would have 10 minutes questions on that and then we would revert to question time. If you want to do that you vote pour, if on the other hand you want to carry on with questions and then have the statement at the end you vote contre. The Greffier will open the voting.

The Bailiff :

Very well then, so we will ..

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Sir,  I  did  support  the  proposition  but  could  I  just  make  a  comment  and  maybe  it  could  be considered as a part of the proceedings, or a point of order in the future. Members submit questions in a limited way, we have 2 oral questions we can ask, we have to give preference to which ones we are going to ask and if Ministers bring statements at the last minute then those timetables and those schedules are negated by 10 minutes of open questions which can be asked by anybody else. So the point I am trying to make is that I put in a question about this, as did the Deputy of St. Martin, and now, rather than having them asked we are going to have 10 minutes of open questions. It might be that if Ministers are going to circulate statements that concern questions that they do so in a more advanced manner.

The Bailiff :

Very well. Thank you, Deputy .

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY

3. The Chief Minister - a statement regarding the Historical Child Abuse Inquiry

3.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

The  Council  of  Ministers  understands  that  the  historical  child  abuse  inquiry  has  now  been concluded. We appreciate that there are many Islanders both here and living elsewhere who have been affected by this long running inquiry and we sympathise with those people. I would like to offer the following apology. On behalf of the Island's Government I acknowledge that the care system that operated historically in the Island of Jersey failed some children in the States residential care in a serious way. Such abuse has been confirmed by the criminal cases that have been before Jersey's courts. To all those who suffered abuse, whether confirmed by criminal conviction or not, the Island's Government offers its unreserved apology. [Approbation] The States of Jersey has received claims for financial compensation which are under review. In March 2008 the Council of Ministers presented a report to the States which considered that, depending on the outcome of the criminal cases, it would be appropriate to hold a Committee of Inquiry. The Council of Ministers will now consider whether there remain any unanswered questions that require further investigation. We will discuss the matter formally in the very near future and bring forward a report to the States.

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Without being churlish I would like to congratulate the Chief Minister on issuing an apology and it was my question if he would apologise I am very pleased he has done so. May I ask the Chief Minister what has changed in the intervening period from when I asked his predecessor to make an apology and he was unable to, to the point that has now transpired where the Chief Minister is finally able to make this welcome apology?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

What has changed since then is that criminal cases have now been heard and I gather that the last of the criminal cases has now been concluded.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Looking at the Chief Minister's apology, he says at the final line: "To all those who suffered abuse, whether confirmed by criminal conviction or not, the Island's Government offers its unreserved apology." The next line then says: "The States of Jersey have received claims for financial compensation which are under review." How does he intend dealing with the ones that unfortunately there was not sufficient evidence to perhaps bring prosecutions but were certainly abused? So are all the residents of these homes going to be treated equally when it comes to claims for compensation?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am very reluctant to speak in any depth about potential civil claims because they are ongoing. I would simply say in broad terms that any individual can bring a civil claim about anything at any time and that claim would be judged on its merits.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is very much in line with my question, in the statement the Chief Minister says that unanswered questions remain. One of the questions I was asking was what action if any is going to be taken against those people involved in the management of Haut de la Garenne? Will that be one of the considerations give by the Council of Ministers?

[14:45]

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am not going to speculate on the extent of the Council of Ministers deliberations merely to say that we will be deliberating and bringing you forward a report in due course.

4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

I also welcome the apology and especially the phraseology to do with criminal convictions, which implies that just because there were cases which did not result in a conviction does not mean that did not necessarily occur. But based on that, will the Chief Minister advise if there are likely to be investigations in the cases where there was not evidence which could be proved beyond all reasonable doubt but which it may be, on balance of probability, that abuse did occur? If that is the case will there be any disciplinary action taken against perhaps current staff members, States employees who may fall into that latter category, even though they may have not had any procedures against them to do with criminal convictions?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

That is a matter on which I am not going to speculate at this stage.

5. Deputy M. Tadier :

Just a quick supplementary, perhaps more concisely, does the Minister acknowledge and envisage that there are likely to be civil proceedings coming which would not necessarily have been able to be brought criminally, and what kind of follow up procedures is the Minister envisaging for that scenario?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I think I have already made it quite clear that because there is the potential for civil claims, I am not going to speculate or elaborate further at this stage.

6. The Deputy of St. John :

Given the statement and its content, will the Minister explain why Members were not in possession of this prior to being asked to vote on taking the statement prior to taking the questions in the House? That, I think, is totally discourteous of Members not being able to have had this information in their hands prior to the Minister asking for the statement to be heard.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

This is simply a matter of good practice that I believe that States Members should be the first to receive the statement and the apology. If I had presented it before the start of the States sitting it does have the opportunity to fall into other party's hands and I am anxious that Members receive it first.

7. The Deputy of St. John :

Given that this could have been handed out at 2.30 p.m. not nearly 2.45 p.m. I think the Minister is being a bit economical with what he is telling us, given we cannot put in-depth questions to the Minister at such short notice.

The Bailiff :

So your question is, Deputy ? The Deputy of St. John :

My question is in future will the Minister ensure that we have it at the moment we walk into the Chamber, not a quarter of an hour afterwards?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

No, it was dependent entirely on the nature of the statement, were it by me or anybody else. I would point out that unless I am mistaken there is no obligation for a copy of the statement in written form to be circulated. It is merely a statement to be made by the person concerned, but I may be wrong on that one.

8. Senator A. Breckon:

Can I ask the Chief Minister, he says in the last sentence: "Discuss the matter formally in the very near future and bring forward a report to the States." Could he give some sort of an assurance to the Assembly on when that will be and hopefully maybe the first quarter of 2011?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I would certainly hope that it would be fairly early in the near year. I was anxious to present an apology today in advance of any other activity that may be required simply to deal with that aspect of the matter. But I do acknowledge the importance of this and we will consider it at the Council of Ministers at the earliest opportunity.

9. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier :

Referring back to the unanswered questions, some of the questions can be answered it is just they were originally intended to become part of an independent inquiry. Are you still intending to look at those aspects while you are reviewing it with your Council of Ministers?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I think I have already dealt with that question and the answer is that the Council of Ministers will consider what aspects may still require review including potentially any unanswered questions.

10. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

As someone who knows individuals in Haut de la Garenne I very much welcome the Chief Minister's apology. However, with the value of hindsight, would the Chief Minister agree with me that it is unfortunate this issue became a political football and that some of the representatives in this House really became vilified and attacked for simply trying to represent the interests of those who were abused? Does he think that is an unfortunate situation and will he work to ensure it does not happen again?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I cannot influence other Members' thinking or actions. I believe that what I have done throughout this is to act in the way which I believe is the correct approach and the right way to go about things.

11. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Part of my question has been answered in how quickly will this consideration be taken, but could I ask very much in line with what Deputy Pitman was saying, that there has certainly appeared from this side of the House a reticence for getting straight answers or at least answers to questions being asked. Will the Chief Minister consider maybe inviting some of those Members who have shown more than a keen interest in getting to the bottom of what has been going on at Haut de la Garenne, maybe consider inviting some of those people - including myself - along with the Council of Ministers to discuss the way forward so we can have a combined way forward rather than an us and them approach?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I will take note of the Deputy 's suggestion, it may be something that is worth pursuing. It will depend on the outcome of the Council of Ministers views. I do take his suggestion on board.

12. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary :

Following on from the Deputy of St. Martin, the Chief Minister's answer was that he would just carry on with his Council of Ministers and not try to have a broader approach to this from the outset and I just want to ask the Chief Minister why he takes that view, and in particular with regard to the wider issues, not so much focusing on the victims themselves but on the fact that their stories were not listened to by all kinds of different people and that wider societal issue? I wonder if that will be included in the Minister's deliberations and whether he will not reconsider having a broader spectrum of people in on that initial discussion?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I do not believe I ruled out the possibility of a subsequent broader review involving other States Members, whether individually or collectively. At this stage all I said was that the Council of Ministers would consider that suggestion and take it seriously.

13. Deputy M. Tadier :

Does the Chief Minister acknowledge that during the Council of Ministers deliberations to consider whether there do remain any unanswered questions it would be useful to know what kind of legal advice was given in circumstances where some cases were dropped when seemingly there was evidence, and how does the Minister intend to go about that very tricky tightrope of asking for legal advice which normally would have a presumption of confidentiality in most circumstances?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

I am sure that the Council of Ministers will take such legal advice as it considers appropriate and necessary and if we require additional advice in that respect I am sure that the Law Officers will be prepared to assist us.

14. Deputy M. Tadier :

That was not quite the question. The question relates to whether any attempt will be made to find out what the legal advice was given in certain cases which resulted in them either being pursued or not being pursued, and there were quite a number of high profile cases which we do not need to mention which one would have hoped - certainly from the alleged victim's point of view - would have gone to court but did not. In order to ascertain to whether or not one needs to have an inquiry it would seemingly be useful to have that information, so can the Minister answer whether he intends to ask for that kind of legal advice to be made available to the Council of Ministers confidentially?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

That is a question which at this stage I cannot give a hard yes or no to. It would be up to the Council of Ministers to consider what information it may or may not require.

The Bailiff :

Very well, that completes questions to the Chief Minister then on that statement. So we will now return to Oral Questions. Deputy of St. Martin , do you still wish to ask your question?

QUESTIONS - resumption

4. Oral Questions

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If we could take that one as the start, and could we start Oral Questions from 2.55 p.m. so any stoppage times have been added on.

The Bailiff :

I will take due note of your suggestion, Deputy .

1. The Deputy ofSt.JohnoftheMinister for Economic Development regarding repairs to the Duke of Normandy:

Given that the Duke of Normandy has had to return to Holland for repairs, who is meeting the cost of the replacement tug, the staffing of that replacement and the cost of sending staff to accompany the Jersey vessel to Holland and what are the estimated costs of the repairs and hire charges of the relief tug?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):

Jersey Harbours will meet all the costs associated with the current repairs to the Duke of Normandy which are being undertaken by the tug's builders, Damen, in Holland. I am told that current indications are that the actual cost of repairs will be approximately 60,000 euros although it was initially estimated at between 45,000 euros and 150,000 euros, depending on the full extent of the damage. Four crew members accompanied the tug to Holland, 2 crew members returned to Jersey immediately at a cost of approximately £250 for flights, 2 engineers have remained on board to oversee the work. The only additional cost for these crew members will be overtime-related. The cost of bringing in the relief tug, Goliath, are £4,000 mobilisation costs and £980 per day which includes one crew member.

1. The Deputy of St. John :

Could the Minister tell us how much downtime our Duke of Normandy tug has had over the last 2 years, and also given that the Duke of Normandy is capable of dredging and the like, why we have had to employ a second tug to dredge the entrance across the harbour for the cable instead of waiting for our own vessel to return, or in fact hiring a tug capable of doing the multitasks that our tug was constructed for? Will the Minister give us those answers please?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

In terms of downtime, which I assume the Deputy is referring to in relation to the Duke of Normandy, the Duke of Normandy has averaged 175 days per annum utilisation so 75 per cent of its time is fully utilised. So aside from the classification works that were recently undertaken and the refit and this existing issue, it has been very well utilised during the time that it has been employed by Jersey Harbours. As far as the dredging works are concerned, they have been

undertaken during this unfortunate period where the tug has had to return to Holland because it has apparently been more suitable from a tidal perspective to get the work done to ensure the port remains open and safe.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Would the Minister comment on whether the accident or the problems that befell the engine were in fact highly unusual and, if so, has the cause been determined, and why is the matter not being dealt with under warranty, which apparently was an extended warranty?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Taking the second part of the question, my understanding is that the warranty has been extended, and indeed that was the purpose of the classification survey - the 5-year survey - to ensure that was the case. As far as the cause of this particular incident is concerned, it is unknown at the moment exactly what the cause is; however we have employed an independent engineering surveyor to look at the cause, in effect, and to report back to the Harbour Department accordingly.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister concede that it was a highly unusual occurrence and a way of interfering with the engine?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I think that is probably correct I mean, I am not an engineer but there are 4 hydraulic pumps I understand on board this vessel and a problem has occurred with one of those pumps. Clearly the vessel is still in Holland, until the repairs are completed we will not know the full extent and the details so I cannot really comment any further.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Part of my question was asked already, how can the Minister be so precise about the cost of the repair for 65,000 euros when he could not tell us what the actual cause of it was? Surely if they are still investigating or trying to find out what the cause is, the figure would not be fixed?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I do not think I gave a fixed figure I gave an approximate figure and that was based purely on the initial inspection. It was not clear before the vessel went to Holland as to exactly the extent of the problem. There are 4 hydraulic pumps and it depended on the extent of the damage and how many pumps were damaged and so on.

[15:00]

The early indications are that it is going to be more like 60,000 euros but indeed we cannot be absolutely precise at this stage, as I am sure Members will understand.

The Bailiff :

The Deputy of St. John , do you wish to ask the final question?

5. The Deputy of St. John :

I do not know if it will be final, Sir, but I hope you will allow me, if need be, to put a supplementary because the Minister said "one pump" and in his reply just now to Deputy Higgins he was not sure how many pumps were affected. Could the Minister be more specific, please?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

There is believed to be damage to one of the pumps but clearly when the vessel arrived in Holland and the engineers started to look at it it was obviously important to make sure there was not any further damage. Clearly the wide range of the estimates, between 45,000 euros and 150,000 euros, was taking into consideration the fact that the damage could have been more severe than initially thought.

The Bailiff :

Very well, then we will move to question 3 which Deputy Le Claire will ask of the Chief Minister or do you wish to queue that one, Deputy ?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

As you can see, Sir, the question was to ask the Chief Minister for an unreserved apology, which he has already given us. Instead of putting the question to him I would just like to thank him for having done so.

2. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding investigations into allegations against staff at the Education, Sport and Culture Department:

Following the naming of a senior civil servant from the Education, Sport and Culture Department in court by alleged victims within the current historic abuse proceedings, will the Minister give Members and parents assurances that the matter has been investigated by his department?

Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

I can confirm that all allegations about members of staff at E.S.C. (Education, Sport and Culture) have been thoroughly investigated by the appropriate authorities and concluded. I am not prepared to comment further. However, I do want to make it clear that I have full confidence in the integrity and professionalism of all senior civil servants in the Education, Sport and Culture Department. Thank you.

1. Deputy S. Pitman:

Supplementary, Sir? Could the Minister tell Members when and following what was this investigation undertaken?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

The investigations have been undertaken over a period of time and, as I have said before, the investigations have been conducted by appropriate authorities and have now been concluded.

2. Deputy S. Pitman:

The Minister has not answered the question. When did the investigation begin and following what? There must have been maybe some complaints from former people who went to Haut de la Garenne, et cetera.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I do not think those details are appropriate and I have answered the question already.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, it is very much in the line of what Deputy Pitman is asking. Could the Minister inform Members who the appropriate authorities were? Were there more than one, for instance, and if there were who were they, please?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Suffice to say they were appropriate authorities.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, just to try and get some clarification because it seems to be becoming more and more obscure as we go on. If the senior executive at Education had complaints made about him, is it one of his employees that would be carrying out the investigation about him and what kind of confidence can we have that that would lead to a satisfactory outcome?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

All the States employees come under the remit of the States Employment Board, not individual departments.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not concede that in order to bring comfort to parents who may be concerned and in order that if we accept his case, total exoneration has occurred, it would be much better to bring this matter to a total end by a full frank and closure statement from himself?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

As far as I am concerned this has already reached closure. This statement that I have made clearly spells out the fact that all issues to do with staff within E.S.C. have been thoroughly investigated by the appropriate authorities and concluded. I cannot, unfortunately, stop States Members and other individuals making allegations on behalf of the staff. All I can do is reiterate what I have said before, that I have every confidence in my senior civil servants.

6. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I have got every respect for the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture but I have to say he is not exactly helping his case in inspiring confidence. No one, I do not believe, is making any allegations. As someone who worked for E.S.C. I certainly know for a fact that in the past anyone who was undergoing an investigation was suspended. Could the Minister at least let us know if this happened on this occasion? That is not to say anyone is innocent or guilty. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, of course.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

At no point was any senior civil servant suspended.

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As the allegations, I believe, made in court, were that the person concerned carried out a criminal act, can the Minister confirm whether the police did investigate it? Was that one of the authorities? If no prosecution has been brought then you could argue that there was no case to answer but at least can you confirm that an investigation took place?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I believe that the police were involved.

8. Deputy S. Pitman:

Could the Minister clarify whether there is a consistent policy on suspensions within this Council of Ministers or is it left to individual Minister's judgment?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

As I have said before, all States inquiries are and do come under the remit of the States Employment Board and, as such, they are the body that oversees all issues to do with staff.

9. Deputy S. Pitman:

It does not appear as .. recently we have witnessed a consultant at the hospital and the former Chief of Police who were suspended while being investigated and this clearly has not happened with this civil servant, why not?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I cannot answer for the States Employment Board but I would suggest that the reason for people not being suspended is that it is not necessary.

The Bailiff :

Very well, then we come to the next question .. Deputy D.J. De Sousa of St. Helier :

Sorry, Sir, the Minister's last comment could be misleading. As a member of S.E.B. (States Employment Board), S.E.B. do not make judgments as to whether somebody is suspended or not, what we do is review them.

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding an increased rate of taxation for those earning over £100,000:

Will the Minister inform the Assembly whether, following the public consultation, the final decision not to proceed with the option of an increased rate of taxation for those earning over £100,000, was taken based on his judgment alone, a joint decision with the full agreement of the Council of Ministers or simply due to the strength of feeling expressed within those responding to the consultation document? Thank you.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

The decision not to propose a higher rate of income tax in the 2011 budget was a unanimous one made by the Council of Ministers. Just over 1,000 individual groups and businesses took the time to respond fully to the consultation on personal tax, and for all of those responses I was very grateful. The responses highlighted the positive and negative effects that respondents thought that a higher rate of income tax would have on Jersey as a place to live, work and do business. This information helped the Council of Ministers to make this decision. This has been discussed at length in the Assembly and I have noted that no amendments to the budget have been received in proposing a higher rate of tax. I have to say that I consider this to be a matter that the States have accepted - that the position of the 20 per cent rate is going to be maintained - and that, in my view, concludes the matter.

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Supplementary, Sir? I accept that I am always going to probably disagree with the Minister for Treasury and Resources slightly. However, does the Minister accept the opinion of the States former Economic Adviser that there is no evidence whatsoever that high earning individuals will depart the Island if rates of taxation become progressive and, as a consequence, does he agree that such a decision as he has taken, not to introduce progressive taxation, will always be based on a simple judgment call, whether collectively with his colleagues or simple political ideology rather than based on hard fact?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I am pleased that the Deputy said that we only disagree on a few things, and I look forward to his agreement in relation to the majority of matters in the budget debated in the next few days. Of course there are political differences in relation to perhaps the Deputy 's stance and mine in relation to progressive taxes and clearly there is no simple mathematical formula that could give either of us the answer as to whether or not the economy would be damaged or there would be a loss of revenue. It is my judgment based upon the consultation that I have received, and that is judgment backed up by the Council of Ministers of which a number of Ministers were very open, in fact even previously supportive perhaps of a higher rate of tax. It is a judgment issue. It is a judgment issue that I have made but I note again that there have been no proposals to introduce a higher rate of tax in this year's budget and I thought that was important.