States Meeting Transcript - 15/02/2011

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 15th FEBRUARY 2011

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................8

1. Nominations for the position of Minister for Housing...................................8

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):..................................................8 Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:..............................................................8

1. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier:......................................................8

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................10
2. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John : ........................................................10
3. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................10
4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:......................................................11
5. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................11
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................11
7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier : ..................................................11
8. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade:......................................................12
9. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................12
10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:................................................12
11. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:...................................................13
12. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................13
13. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................13
14. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary : ..............................................13
15. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter : ......................................................14
16. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:......................................14
17. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................14
18. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:........................................................14
19. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................15
20. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................15
21. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................15
22. Senator T.J. Le Main:................................................................15
23. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................16

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................16

1. Senator T.J. Le Main: ..................................................................18
2. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................18
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................18
4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................19
5. The Deputy ofSt.Mary:................................................................19
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................19
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................19
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................20

10. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................20
11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................21

12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................21
13. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................21
14. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................22
15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................22
16. Senator F.E. Cohen: .................................................................22
17. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................22
18. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:........................................................23

2. Nomination of Deputy Sean Seamus Patrick Augustine Power of St. Brelade as a member of the Environment Scrutiny Panel............................................23

2.1 The Deputy of St. John (Chairman, Environment Scrutiny Panel):......................23 Senator T.A. Le Sueur:.......................................................................24 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: .....................................................................24

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................25

3. The Chief Minister will make a statement regarding Zero/Ten........................25

3.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):...........................................25

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................26
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................27
5. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................27
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................27
7. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................28
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................28
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................28
10. Senator J.L. Perchard: ...............................................................28
11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : ..................................................29

QUESTIONS.....................................................................................29

4. Written Questions.......................................................................29

1. THE DEPUTY OF ST. JOHN OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE USE OF SELF-EMPLOYED OR AGENCY STAFF:........................................29
2. SENATOR F. du H. LE GRESLEY OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING CLAIMS FOR G.S.T. FOOD COSTS BONUS IN 2010:...............36
3. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF ASSISTANT MINISTERS:...........................................................................38
4. THE CONNÉTABLE OF GROUVILLE OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE FUTURE OF THE FORMER JERSEY COLLEGE FOR GIRLS SITE:.....................................................................38
5. SENATOR B.E. SHENTON OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE WORK INVOLVED IN PREPARING ANSWERS FOR STATES MEETINGS: ..............39
6. DEPUTY P.V.F. LE CLAIRE OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE NEW MIGRATION LEGISLATION:............................45
7. SENATOR J.L. PERCHARD OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES REGARDING PARISH RECYCLING SCHEMES:................47
8. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARTIN OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING ACCESS TO PROPERTIES UNDER THE WATER (JERSEY) LAW 1972: .................................................................47

9. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARTIN OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE NAPIER TERMS OF REFERENCE: ..................................................49
10. SENATOR F. du H. LE GRESLEY OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE FUNDING OF A COMMITTEE OF ENQUIRY:..50
11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE FUTURE OF ZERO/TEN:..................51
12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING WEEKLY BENEFITS PAYMENTS......................51
13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE TAX TRANSPARENCY OF THE ISLAND: 53
14. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING FOREIGN-OWNED NON-FINANCE COMPANIES SUBJECT TO 0 PER CENT TAX:......................................53
15. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE ODEON CINEMA SITE:..54
16. DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE COST OF ADVICE ON E.U. ISSUES OVER THE PAST 5 YEARS: ................................................................................55
17. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE LIQUID WASTE STRATEGY: ......56
18. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING TRENDS IN ACTIVITY WITHIN CERTAIN SECTIONS OF THE HOSPITAL:..................................................................58
19. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE CHAIRMAN OF PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE REGARDING FACILITIES FOR STATES MEMBERS:............................................................................58
20. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING HEALTH SCREENING FOR RESIDENTS IN THE VICINITY OF THE ENERGY FROM WASTE PLANT: ..............................59
21. THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING FUNDING FOR REPAIRS AT GOREY PIER:.....60

5. Oral Questions...........................................................................60

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the rates paid to the Harbours and Airport Shadow Board: ............................................60 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (Minister for Economic Development):..............................61

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................61
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................61
3. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................61
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................62

5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................62
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................63

7. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................63
8. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................63
9. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................64
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman.................................................................64

2. The Deputy of St. John of the Minister for Education Sport and Culture regarding charges for early years education:......................................................65 Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..............65

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................65
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................65

3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................65
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................66
5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................66
6. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................66

3. The Deputy of St. Mary of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the criteria for the purchase of new buses:..............................................66 Deputy K.C. Lewis (Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services - rapporteur):..66

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................67
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................67
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................67
   4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of the Minister for Treasury and Resources Minister regarding Zero/Ten:...............................................................................68 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................68

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................68
2. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian :..........................................................69
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................69
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................70
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................70
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................70
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................70
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................71
9. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................71
10. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................71
11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................72
12. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:............................................................72

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services regarding middle grade doctors' posts at the Hospital:............................................73 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................73

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................73
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................73
3. Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin : ..........................................................73
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................74
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................74
6. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................74
7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................74
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................75

6. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the total income yax paid in 2009 by the finance sector at 10 per cent and utilities at 20 per cent: .........................................................................................75 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................75

5.6.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................75

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Economic Development regarding increased lending for businesses:..................................................................75 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................75

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................76
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................76
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................76
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................76
5. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................77

8. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Chief Minister regarding the Terms of Reference of the Napier report:..........................................................................77

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):.................................................77

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................78
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................78
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................78
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................78
5. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................79
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................79
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................79
8. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................79
   9. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the cost of the Metropolitan Police Review of the Haut de la Garenne investigation and of redacting the Wiltshire Report:.......................................................................80 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................80

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................80
2. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................80
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................81
4. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................81

10. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the reorganisation of middle-grade doctors and surgeons:..................................81 Deputy E.J. Noel (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):...........82

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................82
2. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................82
3. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................82
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................83
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................83

11. The Deputy of St. Mary of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a pollution incident which occurred in early 2009 at La Collette during construction of the Energy from Waste Plant:..............................................................83 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment - rapporteur):......83

1. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................84
2. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................84
3. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................84

12. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding an alternative to the use of deemed distribution under Zero/Ten:..........................84 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................85

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................85
2. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :....................................................85
3. Deputy A.E. Jeune : ..................................................................85
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................86
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................86
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................86

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................86 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................87

13. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding fair and equitable taxation practices:............................................................87 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................87

5.13.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:................................................................87

14. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding doctors currently working under restrictions: ...................................................88 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................88

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................88

2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................88
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................89
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................89
5. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................89

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture...................................................................................90

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................90 The Deputy of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):....................90
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................90
3. The Deputy ofSt.Martin:..............................................................90
4. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................90

6.4.1 Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................91

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................91

6.5.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................91

6. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................92
7. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................92
8. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................92
9. Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................93

6.9.1 Senator B.E. Shenton:..................................................................93

10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................93
11. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................93

7. Questions to the Ministers without notice - The Minister for Health and Social Services..................................................................................94

1. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................94 The Deputy of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................94
2. The Deputy ofSt.Martin:..............................................................94
3. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................94
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................95
5. Deputy A.T. Dupré of St. Clement:.....................................................95
6. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................95
7. Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................96

7.7.1 Senator J.L. Perchard:..................................................................96

8. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................96
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................96
10. Deputy A.E. Jeune :.....................................................................96
11. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................97

7.11.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................97

STATEMENTS ON MATTERS OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY ........................97

8. Statement by the Minister for Economic Development regarding the regulation of Channel Islands ferry services:..........................................................98

1. Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):...................98

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................99
   2. Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:..........................................................99
   3. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ...............................................................99

1. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ..............................................................100
2. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ..............................................................100

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ............................................................100
5. Senator A. Breckon: ..................................................................100

6. The Deputy of St. John:...............................................................101

PUBLIC BUSINESS............................................................................102

9. Minister for Treasury and Resources: request to Chief Minister to lodge proposition for dismissal - petition (P16/2011) .....................................................102

9.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :................................................................102

1. Senator T.A. Le Sueur:................................................................106
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ..................................................................107
3. Senator F.E. Cohen:...................................................................107
4. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: ..............................................................108
5. Senator T.J. Le Main: .................................................................111
6. Deputy M. Tadier :....................................................................112

7. The Deputy of St. Mary:..............................................................114
8. Deputy E.J. Noel: .....................................................................119
9. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:..........................................................119
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...............................................................120
11. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.............................................................121
12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ..............................................................122
13. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:.........................................................123
14. Deputy J.A. Martin: ................................................................124

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................126

The Roll was called and the Vice Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. [9:30]

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

1. Nominations for the position of Minister for Housing

The Bailiff :

We come then to F, Appointment of Ministers, Committees and Panels and first of all a nomination by the Chief Minister to the position of Minister for Housing.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

I would like to nominate Deputy Andrew Green of St. Helier as Minister for Housing.

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for the position? Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

I would be pleased to nominate Deputy Geoff Southern for the position, thank you.

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Very well, so there are 2 nominations. Then the procedure is laid down by Standing Orders: it requires that each Member is given the opportunity to address the Assembly for up to 10 minutes. A bell will be rung after 9 minutes and at 10 minutes, no matter what the Member is saying, he will have to stop. Then the other candidate will be taken by a member of the Greffier's staff to somewhere where he cannot hear what is being said. The order in which it will take place is Deputy Green will address the Assembly first and then be questioned for up to 20 minutes and then Deputy Southern will address the Assembly and be questioned for up to 20 minutes. So, Deputy Southern , would you be kind enough to withdraw with the Greffier's representative. Very well, I expect he is far enough away not to hear so, Deputy Green, would you like to address the Assembly?

1. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier :

Good morning, Sir, and thank you. I stand here today with 10 minutes to convince Members of this Assembly that I should be the one to take up the portfolio of Minister for Housing and, if successful, what I will do in the few months that remain before the elections. I hope if Members are not already sure of my skills to, in the short time I have, convince them that I have the right qualities. Those of relevant experience, particularly in change management; those of compassion; vision; integrity; and a propensity for hard work, to name but some of them, and that contrary to what was in the Evening Post on Friday night, I do want this job. I stood for the States to make a difference and I think this is one of those opportunities to do just that. Had I not been nominated by the Chief Minister I may well have stood for the post independently in any case. Before moving on to outline my policies and my visions for the department I would like to pay tribute to Deputy Power for the considerable amount he has achieved in his short time as Minister for Housing. [Approbation] I wish to build on the work of Deputy Power and the officers; there is much to do. Having said that, there is also much that is good. We can be proud of 80 per cent of our housing accommodation, but it is the other 20 per cent that should concern us and that which we should be ashamed of, with £46 million outstanding maintenance and when we put that right all we have done is stood still. There are currently 385 families on the waiting list with 15 disabled families waiting for suitable adaptive accommodation. I am sure there are countless others living in substandard accommodation who do not qualify to appear on any waiting list, and I will come back to that later. This Island needs a framework which will meet the legitimate expectations of all Islanders and I will strive to build on and introduce policies that will support the whole of our community. Policies that will deliver good quality social housing, policies that will support and make it possible for young couples to aspire to home ownership. Policies that support and assist the homeless and policies that will assist particularly the under-25s. Laudable though all this is - and it must be achieved in time - this cannot be completed in the short time that we have before the next election. I would, therefore, propose to concentrate on the challenges or some of the challenges as set out in the 2009 Whitehead Report on social housing and to lay the foundations on which I can build. If successful in gaining the Minister for Housing post today and if successful in being returned to represent St. Helier Districts 3 and 4 at the next election, and if I can convince the new Chief Minister and the Assembly to allow me to carry on the role .. I am beginning to sound like Rudyard Kipling. If all these factors come together I would be in a position to continue the work that I intend to start if successful today. The Whitehead Report came up with a number of recommendations but also concluded that while the Housing Department was operating as effectively as possible within the current policy and financial regime, it cannot hope to maintain in the 21st century a social housing sector, which is value for money, without change. The report that went out set a number of options, which I know Deputy Power has started work on which must be of high priority. Those options included maintaining the status quo, which to my mind is not an option in this case, it is broken, it does need fixing; the development of an arm's length, States- owned management company; the development of a hybrid training company or sale to a newly created social landlord. The options I know the department are considering at the moment are transfer to a wholly-owned housing association or the development of an arm's length, States- owned management company. My own view is that the latter is the way forward but that is entirely based on my current knowledge, therefore, before finally concluding the way forward, I need to develop a greater understanding of the situation and seek the views of others. But whatever mechanism is chosen the department has to be more financially flexible, has to be able to borrow against capital assets, and has to provide as well as encouraging others to provide social housing to a high standard for all that require it, at a price that is fair and at a price that the States can afford. Alongside this, an environment must be developed which will support and make it possible for young couples who aspire to home ownership, to help them fulfil that dream. This may well mean the development of some sort of new States loan scheme, which I undertake to investigate. I bought my own house on a States loan scheme and I know without it I would not have achieved that dream; or sometimes it is a nightmare - my house needs a new roof. That said, the scheme as I

know it cannot go ahead tying-up for 30 to 40 years millions of pounds of Treasury money. [9:45]

That is just not viable today, we need to be more creative and I seek to find ways to be creative. The department must develop policies that support and assist and hopefully prevent homelessness working with Health and Social Services particularly, and there is much work to be done around the under-25s, and some of that is around affordability. It goes without saying, whatever form the revamped Housing Department takes, in the future it must be subject to proper financial oversight, good governance and regulated in order to achieve best value for money. The question of regulation, or to be more precise the lack of it, has to be addressed. It is very difficult to be provider and regulator, it is something that will need to be sorted. All social housing providers, whatever form they take, whether publicly run by the States, whether a housing trust, whether an association, should be of course subject to regulation and accountable to any future regulatory authority set up to deal with this matter. In 2009 this Assembly agreed P.74, the Residential Tenancy (Jersey) Law, as amended, which will provide for written contracts in the non-qualified sector and security of tenure, as well as the deposit protection scheme for the first time. I am pleased - if Members do not know - to advise them that is currently with the Privy Council. I have spent 2 or 3 days with the department going over different things, asking questions, doing my research and they tell me that this is at Privy Council at the moment. The law and subsequent regulations will not, however, improve accommodation standards in the non-qualified sector. There is much work to do here and we need to improve standards. Controlling population by

requiring non-qualified Islanders to live in substandard accommodation is wrong, immoral and unacceptable. Before I summarise and conclude there is one other area which will get my immediate attention and that is one of access to the department by the public, or to use jargon, there needs to be greater emphasis on customer focus. I never know whether to use the term customer, client, tenant, member of the public, but we will just call it customer today. I know that the staff at Housing do their best to carry out site visits but it is not enough. The current reception is not suitable, it is not welcoming and not appropriate, and with the demise and closure of the States Help Centre in Cyril Le Marquand House frankly there is nowhere for customers or residents or the public to go. Access to information other than on the States website is by appointment only, and as a slight aside, Sunday before last I drove past the current offices with my mother and in passing said to her: "Well if all goes well I will be working in there soon." To which she replied: "You are lucky, no one else can get in there to see anyone."  [Laughter] Perhaps this is not strictly true but that is the perception. It is the environment - not the staff - that is far from welcoming and we must change that. In conclusion, if elected, I will continue the work already started by Deputy Power and set out a framework of policies, which will support all Islanders in achieving appropriate access to good quality homes where they are purchased for owner occupation or rented in the public or private sector, whether qualified or non-qualified. In the time allocated I have not been able to cover all the areas of responsibility but I have no doubt that Members will pick up on some of these in their questions. Thank you. [Approbation]

1. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Doing just that, picking up on something, Deputy Green made at least 2 specific references to the housing needs of the under-25s in his speech. I would be grateful if he could be a little more specific as to his intentions in this area?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I just know how difficult it is for young people to fly the nest; I know it is a problem that we need to look at. I am fairly new at this and I do not have any specific plans for the under-25s but it is something we need to do. Not because of the article recently in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post), my constituents have been telling me there is something we need to do. There is also some work that needs to be done about getting some of these people appropriate opportunities for employment which will help them find housing. So I will work on that.

2. Deputy P.J. Rondel of St. John :

Given the candidate's stance on Pomme d'Or Farm, if he finds when elected as the Minister for Housing that there is greater need in other States properties, i.e. our housing properties, for renovation work and the like, how will he prioritise this work given his stance on Pomme d'Or Farm?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

When I started my work on Pomme d'Or Farm, which has been going on for about 2 years now, I had no idea I would find myself in this position today. That said, Pomme d'Or Farm has to go ahead. I have been promised that it will go ahead and it has to. I know there are other areas of accommodation, we have got £45 million of outstanding maintenance. I will pull together a programme and attempt to find the money. That may be around the sale of some of the properties, I do not know, but we must get that maintenance done because I am told that La Collette Flats particularly are as bad, if not worse, than Pomme d'Or Farm, and I give my undertaking to work hard to improve the situation.

3. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Actually La Collette Flats were before Pomme d'Or Farm, some people can roll over, and that is what I would like to ask the Deputy , if he is going for this position. He keeps talking about forward, a way forward, a future of good financial oversight; I want a categorical assurance from him that in the last 2 or 3 years, Le Squez - the Homebuyers Scheme I think, has possibly lost millions. The Chief Minister is not prepared to look inward: as Minister of Housing is he prepared to look inward and make sure that we do not lose millions on land that we own and schemes that suit some people and bar many other people? Will he be a leader or will he be a nodder?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not think I have ever been known to be a nodder and anyone that wants confirmation of that speak to the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. I will be a leader and I will look at the Homebuyers Scheme, but we need to find a way of providing affordable homes for young couples who aspire to home ownership. The Homebuyers Scheme, as I understand it, was a planning initiative and if there were any mistakes made there we need to learn from that, and I will ensure that I do look at that and learn from it and come forward with improvements.

4. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

My question has been touched upon. How would the Deputy see his priority as Minister for Housing in relation to all the maintenance that has sadly been neglected regarding budgets over the last few years? My own Parish of St. Saviour has several estates that need bringing into the 20th century, and where would the Deputy find the money?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not know where I will find the money at the moment. There are years of lack of maintenance, years of neglect; it needs to be worked on. That may be around being more creative around selling some of the properties perhaps that do not fit naturally into our portfolio, although as a general principle I will say I do not agree with selling our housing stock. I do not know, that is a piece of work that I need to do. I have only been looking at this job for about 2 weeks.

5. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Would the candidate, if successful, undertake to review the parking currently in the Housing Department's portfolio, and does he not agree with me that it would make sense if most of that parking, if not all of it, was available for residents and visitors to the Parish rather than rented out on highly lucrative leases?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I was not aware until recently that any parking was rented out, but I have to say I am now aware. It does need to be looked at, we do have - particularly some of our older residents - who are socially isolated because their visitors cannot park near where the people that they are visiting live. It is a piece of work I undertake to look at. I do not have any magic wands but I do undertake to look at it; I am going to be very busy if I get the job I think.

6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

One of the issues that has been alluded to is the number of people in housing who do not subject themselves to means tests and are rightly or wrongly thought to pose a blockage in the system. What would the Minister do about this situation?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

The current rent system does create unintended subsidy for some tenants and I believe, in the short time I have been looking at this, that the housing transformation programme commenced by Deputy Power will bring about changes to the current rental policy. This will address, I think, some of the issues of hidden or unintended subsidies, it is work to be done but I believe it will help to solve that problem.

7. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Co-op housing is considered by many countries in jurisdictions to be a positive way of helping people obtain affordable housing. If elected Minister would the Deputy be willing to instigate a co- operative housing scheme in Jersey?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not know enough about it to say yes I would be willing to instigate it, what I would be willing to do is certainly investigate it.

8. Deputy A.E. Jeune of St. Brelade :

Would the Deputy assure us that if he were to be Minister for Housing he would commit to deliver C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review) savings and work within the budget limits that have been set?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

Every department has to make its contribution to C.S.R. savings and keeping within budget, that said I will fight my corner very strongly to ensure that the Housing Department gets a fair crack of the whip.

Deputy A.E. Jeune :

That is not an answer to the question I asked. The Bailiff :

Well I think it was.

9. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

We hear much talk of various schemes in order to be able to introduce affordable housing into Jersey. Does the candidate accept that ultimately house prices and, therefore, rental prices are ultimately driven by market forces and, if so, what will he do to tackle the market forces, which are the problem with affordable housing in Jersey?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

To deliver affordable housing we need 2 things, we need land and we need the willingness to do it. I undertake to look at it, I have no magic solutions. I have no magic solutions but I know that we need to provide young couples who aspire to house purchase, houses they can afford to buy. There are a number of schemes around that, some of them that on sites allow a percentage of the houses on that site to go out at subsidised prices, if you like, or affordable. There are other ways that we can do it. I need to look at it, I have no magic answers, I am still learning.

10. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

With regard to town and built-up area regeneration, what does the Deputy consider to be a maximum unit density and a maximum average density of build in terms of dwellings per hectare, which can be supported before compromising sustainability criteria? [Laughter]

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I am sorry, I only got the first part of the question in terms of density, I did not catch the rest, could the Deputy repeat it?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I will read it more slowly this time. With regard to town and built-up area regeneration, what does the Deputy consider to be a maximum unit density and a maximum average density of build in terms of dwellings per hectare, which can be supported before compromising sustainability criteria.

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

How long have we got, Sir? No, seriously, I was looking around at different densities around town and the Le Coie centre, for example, near Roberts Garage down near Springfield, is about 180 habitable rooms per acre, whereas Berkshire Court is something like 300 habitable rooms per acre. Now, my own view is that around 160 to 180 is about right but it does depend on the amenities that are provided as part of that development. The least number of amenities, the less open space, the bigger the accommodation has to be because it is not everybody that wants all those amenities. So I am not going giving a very straightforward answer, but if I was asked what I think is the recommended norm I would go for about 180 habitable rooms per acre.

11. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

I think the way the Deputy bought himself some more time there he will obviously make an excellent Minister. As a town Deputy I know of good people in poor states of accommodation waiting to be moved. One family I know, in fact, were waiting for nearly 8 years while many who cause antisocial problems that make these peoples' lives a misery do get moved. If elected what will the Deputy do to ensure that this upside down approach is overturned?

[10:00]

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I undertake to be, as I have been throughout the whole of my life, scrupulously fair and we will develop systems to ensure that we are scrupulously fair, taking all factors into account. If the Deputy would like to speak to me about that particular family that he is talking about, if I get the post I may be able to help.

12. Senator F.E. Cohen:

Does the candidate believe that some States-owned sites should be used in part at least for the provision of affordable housing, both social rented and/or shared equity?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

In a quick answer, yes.

13. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

International authorities recommend that Government should not be in the business of providing social housing, it should be provided by associations and trusts and Government should merely be a regulator. What is the Deputy 's view?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

It is not entirely along those lines. I think there is a role for Government, although at arm's length. As I said in my speech, my own view is that we need to have an independent, wholly-owned by the States, body that will oversee social housing and that we - housing associations, public housing - should all be regulated. It is very difficult for the Housing Department to be regulator and the provider. That is why we need this arm's length organisation. It is all of our responsibilities although the main role of the Government is to facilitate the provision of social housing.

14. Deputy D.J.A. Wimberley of St. Mary :

Does the candidate agree that the root of the fundamental problems in the accommodation sector and the source of the endless treadmill in housing is the current policy of continuing to increase the population by between 150 and 200 households a year coming into a small finite island? Does he agree with that statement and what will he do about it?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do agree that growing the population is part of the problem. I am still new at this, I have only met for a few minutes with the officers in charge in the Migration Department. I have still got to learn. That said, I have great difficulty and always have had in how we control very tightly (j) cats and professionals but allow anybody who wants to live in the unqualified sector to just come into the Island. I do not know the answers; it is something I intend to look at.

15. Deputy C.H. Egré of St. Peter :

With the recent announcement of the massive redundancies within Her Majesty's services, what priority, if any, will the candidate give to returning serviceman getting them housing?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not know what the policy is currently in the department, I would need to investigate that, but as an ex-serviceman I am bound to have a private view.

16. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :

What are the candidate's views on building social housing in the countryside and green zones? Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I have a dislike of building on green zones unless we have absolute categorical proof that there is no alternative. We have a number of sites in town that are sitting vacant doing nothing. I would prefer to see those used before we go out into the countryside.

17. Senator T.J. Le Main:

I would like to offer whoever is the successful candidate my full support and offer any help and advice they may need in the future. I would like to say that there is a very good website, which will assist the Deputy , and I wonder whether he would care to look at it. It is called magicwand.com [Laughter] and I think that the Deputy will need all that if elected and wish him all the best of luck.

The Bailiff :

You have a question, Senator? Senator T.J. Le Main:

In view of the lack of discussion taking place in questions with regard to housing law and population, will the Deputy work with businesses, enterprises, entrepreneurs and all that to make sure that good decisions are made, that Jersey remains a good place to attract new businesses and entrepreneurs to this Island and to make sure that Jersey is a good place to live and do business with?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

Of course I will, because I want Jersey to be a good place to live, but I will make sure that it is done a way that is fair, consistent and appropriate.

18. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

States tenants' agreements are subject to very short periods of notice. Does the Deputy believe that States tenants should have greater security of tenure, perhaps by creating longer leases?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I am sorry, could the Senator just repeat the first part of the question? Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

I was saying that the current States tenancy agreements are subject to very short periods of notice, so do you believe that we should be creating longer leases for States tenants?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

This was one of the surprises in my investigations - I believe it is a week's notice - and I do believe that we need to treat people how we want to be treated - I would not have wanted to have rented anything on a week's notice - so we need to treat people fairly and, yes, I do believe that needs to be looked at.

19. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter :

I just wondered if the Deputy could tell me what value he would add to the product of Jersey by becoming the Minister not only for Housing but also on the Council of Ministers?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I think I will bring my experience of life, my love of Jersey to the Council of Ministers, but also some balance in terms of I am very pragmatic, and I will not say that I speak to the people any more than anybody else, but I think I will bring some balance to the Council of Ministers in terms of different views. I am also quite creative and I may be able to bring that to the Council of Ministers. Who knows until I get there.

20. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Could the candidate tell the Assembly his views on (1)(1)(k)s and how he would administer the (1)(1)(k) policy?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not know how I would administer it and I was rather hoping this question would not be asked, but anyway. I do have a slightly different view to some people on (1)(1)(k) inasmuch as if we bring people into the Island that were not going to be in the Island who are going to make significant contributions to the exchequer, providing I can see that it is a benefit we would not have had anyway In other words for a new member of the public coming in, £100,000 I think is the figure that they currently would be contributing, I would want to work with the Minister for Treasury on that. I mean, I have seen the benefit besides the direct taxation that comes in. I have seen the benefits that many of these (1)(1)(k)s have given directly to charities, many hundreds and thousands pounds, so I am not anti-(1)(1)(k). [Approbation]

21. Senator J.L. Perchard:

The candidate, if successful, will become a member of the Council of Ministers where he will be party to much commercial and sensitive information and when he will become party to policy information. Can he act in a corporate manner and does he accept corporate collective responsibility?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

Always a fine line to tread, but one thing I can give is my absolute integrity and confidentiality. I have never once even repeated private conversations that Members have had in this Chamber that I have overheard. I do not do that. Private conversations remain private, commercial sensitive information remains private. Yes, I do accept overall corporate responsibility, that is about being a team player. That said, do not expect me to sit there and nod.

22. Senator T.J. Le Main:

Housing, apart maybe from the Health Department, is a very hands-on, personal matter with people. Can I have some assurance from the Deputy that he will make all endeavours that when people make contact or leave messages or emails - not like some other Ministers - that he will respond to them as quickly as possible because all these issues are very personal to people that ring up on housing or population matters?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

Absolutely, I do that now and I see no reason to change.

The Bailiff :

That concludes the 20 minutes but I am going to allow one extra question to make up for the repetition of Deputy Duhamel's question, to be fair.

23. Deputy J.A. Martin:

It is on the question of population, when the Population Office was formed a lot of power was taken away from the Minister for Housing; lots of people have now found this is wrong. Would the candidate fight to get the final say, shall we say, as who comes in back under his Ministry and, secondly, could he remind the House which way he voted in the Strategic Plan on the reaching the 100,000 population, was it a yes or a no?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

Taking the last bit first, did you say which way I voted as to whether we should keep below 100,000?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

No, the Strategic Plan was to rise to 100,000 and there was amendment for a keep constant, so which way did the Minister [Members: Oh!] .. slip of the tongue there, Sir, he knows the question I think.

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

I do not remember to be honest, but I suspect if I was consistent in my approach that I would have voted against going above 100,000 because I am against growing the population, but I would have to check. The first part of the question?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Would you take back ownership of the Population Office and not keep it under Economic Development?

Deputy A.K.F. Green:

The truthful answer to that is I do not know enough about it, that is something I would have to look at. I was surprised to find that it reported to the Chief Minister's Office and not Housing, I have to say. But the truthful answer is I do not know. I have been investigating as much as I can in the last 2 weeks and I will look at it.

The Bailiff :

Very well, that concludes questions to Deputy Green so, Deputy , I will ask you please to be kind enough to withdraw from the Chamber and be accompanied by a member of the Greffier staff and we will ask Deputy Southern to return. Very well, Deputy , when you are ready if you would like to address the Assembly for up to 10 minutes.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

The first thing I want to say to every Member in this Chamber is to those who I may have upset accidentally [Laughter] or deliberately in the past 8½ years now is your chance to get your own back. Vote for me as Minister for Housing without a budget because there is no capital allocation after 2011, so get your own back. The starting point is Housing is in dire need of a thorough overhaul and that overhaul has started taking place and there is a White Paper being prepared for the housing transformation project, which is on its way, and it is possible that the new Minister will get the final touch on that to steer it in what he sees is the right direction. The right direction must be the provision of adequate social housing on this Island. The waiting list that we have suggests that we have not enough housing, social housing in particular, full stop. That issue cannot be avoided.

[10:15]

In the latest report which looked at the problems of housing in Jersey - the Whitehead Report - it referred to the social housing property plan 2007 to 2016. It said this: "The property plan was developed within the existing financial framework by which net rental income is inadequate to pay for improved investment." Given this overwhelming lack of available resources, the only option available was to plan to sell-off a proportion of the stock to realise the necessary finance. Housing is chronically under-funded. Something like £26 million worth of rents, £20 million goes back into central funding leaving £6 million, which is not enough to maintain and refurbish and keep the stock adequately. That is the fundamental problem. Until we can get that right, we get funding for the building and maintenance of housing right, we are going nowhere with social housing on the Island. The second thing that the transformation plan wishes to do is to separate the Minister from direct provision of housing and that is about funding. At the moment we have got funding coming through several sources, one of which is through income support, and the rental allocation is so large that it skews income support tremendously. That link between the cost of housing and income support must be broken in some way because we cannot continue using that to prop-up the system when it is designed for income support to keep people alive rather than pay rent. So that has to be an issue that is tackled. The second report that has come out in the last 18 months is the MacDonald Report on affordable housing which was a Planning and Environment review. It came up with the conclusion that there is no such thing as affordable housing in Jersey. The multiplier between value to loan is something like 13 times average earnings; there is no such thing as affordable housing. How do we solve that problem? I do not know the whole answer but I know where we start. Affordable housing depends on the price not only of building a house but on the price of that land. We have to turn to property that is already in States ownership and use that. Why do we not do that as a first resort, as a first stopping point? Because there is a policy driven by the Minister for Treasury and Resources or the Chief Minister or somebody like that, which says we must maximise value on every asset we have got. Now, hang on, that is no way to get

affordable housing. What is the asset value, what is the benefit of providing social housing? Enormous, I would say, for our population. That is the way to go, not say we must get the maximum value, because in that way we just rely on developers and what do they build, 3-bed B' category, they do not build A' category housing which is what we need. Now, obviously I have been in touch with Housing quite a lot over the past 8 years, increasingly now I am chairman of the Health, Social Services and Housing Panel. In fact I am more familiar with the previous Minister than perhaps I would like to be because I think I have met him 4 times in meetings in the past year. I was just looking today at a document that Housing gave me a few days ago and it shows the questions asked of the Minister for Housing over the past 2 years and, lo and behold, I am on there 12 times. Now, whatever you think of question time it does reveal an interest and a concern. So I asked about increasing home ownership, review of social housing, affordable housing. Those are the issues that concern me, those are the issues that I will be driving if you were to elect me into the position of Minister for Housing. Now, I say there is no funding after 2011; the 2011 refurbishment programme is on track though and the priorities are Clos Gosset, Pomme d'Or, Jardin des Carreaux - which is a small estate at the back of St. Helier - and La Collette high rise. Funding for those in place; certainly Clos Gosset is due to start now and I believe Pomme d'Or Farm, some money has been found so that they can make a start in the autumn I believe. Jardin des Carreaux is a small project and might be affordable this year. I would certainly like to see it done this year. But all that depends on selling our current property. Now, that is a short-sighted policy in itself but the fact is that nowadays you cannot get a mortgage at the moment for love nor money, so it is extremely difficult. So beyond 2011 a major problem will be how are you going to fund social housing in Jersey, pay the bill? I would argue that like many other authorities in the mainland and indeed throughout Europe, what we should do is look at isolating that funding for the building of housing and - it has to be said - it is now the time to look at borrowing, I believe it is. You could form a bond and cover that bond with your rental: the fact that we have got £1 billion or nearly £1 billion worth of asset in the housing stock is something that should be and must be developed in order to fund proper social housing. The other thing we need to do is to get regulation in place for the housing trusts and the critical point there is that some of the housing trusts now, their loans are coming to the end of their borrowing. They are paid off. That rental that is coming into their coffers is a freebie. Why is that not coming into provision of social housing? We need to get that regulated and we need quite literally - and they will not like to hear it - to get our hands on that rental income in order to redirect it into more provision of social housing. Finally, I think I will come to something that shows my interest. Also in the pipeline is the public sector rental deposit scheme, Members will remember that I pushed that through and I twisted the previous Minister's arm to get that through. It is ready to go now. Certainly, if nothing else happens, we will see a White Paper in the next 8 months and we will see that come to the House for final approval. That is a starting place but it is not for just 8 months, it is for 4 years beyond that. I would intend - if you elect me this time - to come back and do it again and to push through the enormous change that we need in the right way. Thank you.

1. Senator T.J. Le Main:

A Minister cannot do his or her job unless they have the complete trust and support and confidence of the department staff and of course other public sector staff. Would Deputy Southern please give us an explanation how he would achieve this trust, especially with he having a very serious conviction in the Royal Court in which he believes that rules he does not agree with should be broken?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Certainly. As an ex Minister you should know about trust, and the answer is I believe I already have that trust. I have had a number of actions with the Housing Department where I have been in seeking qualifications under hardship cases, seeking to come to a rent agreement with staff. Initially relations may have been a bit spiky but now I have good relations I think with staff in the Housing Department. They know about me, they know how I negotiate and they negotiate in the correct way when I come in with individual cases. I have got 3 cases outstanding at the moment for housing need where we are looking for a 2-bed for single parents, I have regular contact with the Housing Department and I believe we trust each other.

2. The Deputy of St. Peter :

With the recent announcement of the massive redundancies within Her Majesty's Services, what priority if any would the candidate give to Housing returning ex-servicemen and women?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I believe we have a commitment to housing returning ex-servicemen and I believe we should honour that commitment to its utmost.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

We have heard on occasion social housing being classed as subsidised, does the candidate agree with this analysis given that £26 million of rental, of that, £20 million goes straight back to the Treasury?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Social housing must - by its very definition I believe - be described as subsidised. The question is, as I referred to in my speech, how do you get that subsidy to the required place? At the moment we use income support to convey that subsidy into the system and the fact is that most of that income support goes back into the system and not enough goes into Housing. We need to isolate the capital requirement for Housing and make sure it is separated from our welfare system and the 2 do not overlap because the one is messing-up the other. So, yes, there is a subsidy, the subsidy comes in the building and maintenance of that housing and separate from the welfare of the tenants and that must be the prime object of the subsidy.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Before the Population Office was established the Minister for Housing had a lot more say in population. Would this candidate - if elected - fight to regain the last say on who comes into Jersey other than the Chief Minister's Department, and could he also remind the House which way he voted in the Strategic Plan on the population? Was he in favour of driving it up to the 100,000 that was in the Chief Minister's plan, or was he of keeping it rolling along until we get the situation of housing sorted?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

There may still be space to answer the question, a long question. Yes, I firmly believed at the time that we must have a vested interest in the person responsible for the rising population that they should want to see it automatically not rise by as much as it could, and that means the Minister for Housing. If the Minister for Housing can see that population is rising, and he has to supply the housing for that population, then he has got that vested interest and I do not think that vested interest lies comfortably either with the Chief Minister or Economic Development who has a vested interest in pushing it up and letting people in. So that is the first point. Secondly, the question was about population and going to 100,000. I believe I brought an amendment, if not to this one then the one before, about limiting the growth in population to sustainable levels which was lower than the 150,000 that we have got now.

5. The Deputy of St. Mary :

On a related topic but more precise, if you like, does the candidate agree that the root of the fundamental problems in the accommodation sector and the source of the endless treadmill in Housing is the current policy of continuing to increase the population by 150 to 200 households a year, coming into a small finite Island? Does the candidate agree with that statement and what will the candidate do about this?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I will fight my corner in the Council of Ministers, obviously, and argue the case for sustainable limits on growth. It is a fact, and I have long stood on this platform, that we cannot just let the population grow because of economic growth. We have to choose some limit and control the growth of population in such a way as population is sustainable. A key element in that is housing.

6. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

If the candidate were elected, first day in office, what would the candidate see as his absolute number one priority?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Absolute number one priority would be to read that White Paper and get my head around  it completely because I have not seen it yet, although I know what its general thrust is, so I will be looking to see how it is shaping-up and how far on we are with it to make sure that it comes to this House by June for the consultation period into the future.

[10:30]

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given that the candidate is politically and ideologically totally at variance with the Council of Minister's views on many things, can he tell us whether he will be subscribing to the policy of collective responsibility, and even if he were what would be the breaking point where he would have to say: "Enough is enough and I have to wish you goodbye"?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

It is not my intention to become a Minister only to think about resignation, that is not where the hard work is done. The hard work is done inside the Council of Ministers, arguing what you believe is the correct case and modifying policy little by little if necessary. My time in the States has I think taught me one thing and that is to accept small movement as significant. So that is the attitude I would take in the Council of Ministers, even though I may be politically and philosophically opposed to much of what they represent, nonetheless, my job is to argue the case on the facts.

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Sorry, just a supplementary. Could the candidate say then which issues would be the tipping point for him?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

No. I will repeat my phrase that small changes are significant and that is where I am. I am not into resignation. That is vieux temps passé. That is back to the old and the great who used to regularly resign from their committees and then form another one because they could not get their own way; not my policy at all.

9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

International authorities recommend that Government should not be in the business of directly providing social housing, it should be provided by associations and trusts and Government should merely be a regulator. What is the Deputy 's view?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

That is the direction, I believe, that the White Paper is taking and I am prepared to go along with that to the extent that we - and the Minister for Housing in particular - must stay in control of housing policy and give the direction. In the same way that a Minister might direct the department, the department must give direction, clear direction, to the mechanism for providing social housing. However, having said that, the key element and the starting point, as I have said before, is we simply have not got enough social housing. We need to get the mechanism right so we can deliver it at affordable prices.

10. The Connétable of St. Mary :

What is the candidate's perception of the housing needs and the issues facing the under-25s? How will he address them, and can he also tell me who he is likely to have as his running mate?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I have not given thought to who I might have as my running mate. The position is open. As the Deputy of St. John is such a cynic, it is not open to the Chief Minister to tell me who I am going to pick. The under-25s, we have got a serious problem, because I believe that the rule that says under- 25s have got no automatic access - and the key is income support - to income support for the housing accommodation unit, the accommodation part of that, that is a serious problem. Increasingly, we are seeing young people homeless because they cannot afford to survive. Now, the current rules are that either you have got to demonstrate complete breakdown of the family unit with your parents, or you have lived on your own successfully for a year. It is a bit circular, that one. If you can survive without the accommodation component of income support for a year, then you can have it, but if you cannot, then you cannot. It does not work. It needs a serious look at. Obviously the problem is, and why it is still there as I say, we have got a shortage of housing, and therefore any increase on those eligible would increase the demand on housing and is a difficult problem to solve, which reminds me that the whole issue of waiting lists ..

The Bailiff :

Deputy , I am sorry ..

Deputy G.P. Southern :

If I may continue, Sir.

The Bailiff :

Well, try and be concise, because a number of Members want to ask questions. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Absolutely, Sir. The whole issue of waiting lists was focused on by the Whitehead Report which said: "Your waiting lists do not really mean a lot, the response to who you define is eligible for housing. There are all sorts of poor people in this Island who are not eligible for social housing. Waiting lists as a whole need to be addressed." Within that, under-25s, it is part of that problem.

11. Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

The Halifax Report recently identified that the average cost of a 3-bedroom house in the United Kingdom is £180,000. In Jersey, it is in excess of £500,000. Will the candidate let us know whether or not he would consider investigating the creation of a co-op housing scheme within the ambit of the States of Jersey to help people get out of the slavery of paying debt all their life under these continuing capitalist non-social considerations that have prevailed upon society to give us £500,000 as an average house price?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I do not quite know what the questioner means by a co-op scheme, but nonetheless, I believe we should be looking increasingly at some sort of subsidised scheme for the sale of houses. It is absolutely correct that we should be looking after category A' first-time buyers' houses as well as social housing. As I said in my speech, the first point that I would be looking at is the point of acquiring land. I believe the States have some very large sites where the philosophy should not be just to maximise potential, because we are too reliant on developers, and we must do something otherwise - other than that - to get hold of that land and thereby bring down the cost of certain elements of affordable housing. That is my way forward.

12. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

With regard to town and built-up area regeneration, what does the Deputy consider to be a maximum unit density and a maximum average density of build in terms of dwellings per hectare which could be supported before compromising sustainability criteria?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Starter for 10, and I have to say - and if I get elected, I will say it occasionally - I do not know the answer to that. I have not looked at those figures. However, I will get back to the questioner before the end of the day with the figures.

13. Senator J.L. Perchard:

The candidate, if successful, will become a member of the Council of Ministers, where he will be party to much commercial and sensitive information, and where he will become party to policy under formation, for example, tax and spend policy. Can he act in a corporate manner and does he accept corporate collective responsibility?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I absolutely accept corporation responsibility for not sharing information to which I am privy. I believe my record on Scrutiny, and Scrutiny's record in general, is that leaks of policy in formation, it is Scrutiny nil, somewhere in the Ministerial system, 3.

14. The Deputy of St. John :

Given the candidate's short fuse, and as the candidate has principles, can he put his department before his principles within the Council of Ministers, where he has to be a team player?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Anybody who has worked with me on Scrutiny will know how I am a team player, how my panels work together, how we report, and we do not report until we get total agreement around the room about what we are going forward with. That way, everybody gets absolutely solid behind any policy or any decision that we are making, and I make sure that happens. I believe I am a very good organiser and runner of meetings. I think I do the right balance between allowing people to believe that they have their say and they have said their bit, yes, and then coming to a decision in a reasonable, timely manner. I think anybody who has worked with me would confirm that, and if you have not worked with me, just check with your neighbours and just see that that is the fact.

15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Minister for Housing has responsibility for issuing (j)s and (k)s. The candidate has made his views known on the (k) policy. How would he propose to deal with (k) applications that would immediately come before him and also how would he propose to deal with (j) applications for the financial services industry?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I will start with the (j)s. I am worried about the fact that in the majority of cases, we have got permanent (j)s now, so our population is growing that way, as well as in other ways. So that is a problem and I will be looking to see if we can re-examine that particular policy. As to (k)s, no matter what my politics are, I will use the rules. The rules will be laid out there, and whatever the Council of Ministers has decided, that is who gets in, then that is who gets in. I do not have a problem with that.

16. Senator F.E. Cohen:

The candidate, rather naughtily and wrongly, blamed the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Chief Minister for the imperative within Property Holdings to maximise values on publicly- owned sites. If the candidate feels, as I do, that States-owned properties should be used at least in part for the provision of affordable housing, how would he propose to effect the necessary change in policy, and how will he implement delivery?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Again, we are back to the mechanics of Ministerial government. One has to argue your side in the Council of Ministers. I would seek to persuade as many other Ministers to share what appears to be our common ground to reach consensus that that is the way forward and that housing need takes precedence over profit and greed - oh, I just made that rhyme - in particular, I would be pressing the Minister for Planning and Environment for time-limited consents in the private sector. It seems to me that a lot of developers acquire a site and sit on it and sit on it and sit on it, and if we have got a need, then perhaps those should be time limited so we get them moving as well as the States.

17. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

Would the candidate advise the House what his policy would be on providing social housing in the countryside and green zones?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I believe that we should try and avoid building in the green zones. However, whether we do or not depends very critically on what we allow the population to do. That is the critical link. We have to concentrate on making sure that the population and its increase is sustainable if we are to succeed in not building on green zones. The first point that we have to start to consider, as I have said - and that is now 3 times - would be property or land that is already in States hands, and that is a starting point. Now, some of those sites are in town or on the borders, so we are looking at perhaps the Girls' College, St. Saviour, looking at the d'Hautree site as a prime site for development. That is where we should be starting.

18. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Does the candidate believe that all States tenants should be regularly means tested? Deputy G.P. Southern :

Regularly means-tested? It depends what you mean. I assume you do not mean every 3 months. Certainly what I have noticed in my relations between tenants and the Housing Department and Social Security often that the means test does slip or the income does slip and the Housing Department and Social Security are very quick to try and recover that additional payment or the absence of payment. What we need to do is make sure that we know accurately what income is coming into the household, and where mistakes are made, then we must be careful to make sure that the prime objective must be to make sure that repayment is doable, rather than try and get it back in a certain amount of time. For example, I believe that there is a target in housing for any arrears of rental to be paid back within a year, and sometimes that goes over the limit of: "What can you afford?" If that is 18 months, if it is doable, then let us go for 18 months and not stick to a year is my advice.

The Bailiff :

Very well. I am afraid that brings questions to Deputy Southern to an end. The Bailiff :

There are a number of others with lights, but we have unfortunately just run out of time, Connétable , I am sorry. I ask people to ask questions in the order in which I see the light.

[10:45]

So we invite Deputy Green then to return to the Assembly. Perhaps while that is happening, I can invite ballot papers to be distributed. Members should write the name of their preferred candidate on the ballot paper. Deputy Green requires a paper, I think. We would not want him to be deprived of a vote. If all Members have received a ballot paper, I invite them, as I say, to put one name or the other on the ballot paper of the 2 candidates and then the ushers will collect the ballot papers. Very well then, if all Members have returned their ballot papers, I will ask the Viscount and the Attorney General to act as scrutineers in connection with the ballots.

2. Nomination of Deputy Sean Seamus Patrick Augustine Power of St. Brelade as a member of the Environment Scrutiny Panel

The Bailiff :

Very well, then we come next to a nomination of a member of the Environmental Scrutiny Panel. Do we have a nomination by the chairman of that panel?

2.1 The Deputy of St. John (Chairman, Environment Scrutiny Panel):

Yes. It gives me great pleasure to propose the former Minister for Housing, Deputy Sean Power, as a candidate to join my panel, he having been a former member of the Environment Scrutiny Panel at a different time, and it would be nice to have him back on board. Thank you.

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Very well, I declare that Deputy Power is elected then as a Member of the Environmental Scrutiny Panel.

Senator T.A. Le Sueur :

Before we start question time and before my voice gives out, I wonder if it would be appropriate for me to make a statement on Zero/Ten? There are a number of questions, both written and oral, on the subject and it strikes me it would be more sensible for me to make this statement prior to those questions.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Can I oppose that, Sir? We recently had a ruling from you in regards to the Deputy of St. John, who put a question on the resumption of the agreement on health with the U.K. (United Kingdom); the reciprocal health agreement. You ruled, Sir, that it would be appropriate in the future for Ministers to  wait before distributing the  information until such time  as the Deputy who  had prepared the question and tabled the question had the opportunity to put that question. I have questions today, Sir, number 4 and 5 on the list, about Zero/Ten to the Minister for Treasury and Resources, which challenges exactly the things that are being set out in the statement of the Chief Minister. I think the last time this occurred was when I asked a question of the Chief Minister, whether or not he was prepared to apologise for Haut de la Garenne. My question was leap- frogged in the same manner as it is being attempted to be leap-frogged this morning, and the Minister apologised before I was able to ask the question. I think it makes a mockery of putting questions before Ministers when statements from Ministers are clearly set out in the Order Paper. I would just say the business of the States is in the hands of the business of the States, but is it right that Members have to wait days upon days and get their questions in in a certain format when they can be leap-frogged in this manner? You made a ruling, Sir, in regards to the Deputy of St. John and I would like to ask you to consider that.

The Bailiff :

I am not sure what the ruling was in relation to the Deputy of St. John, but it is not a matter for the Chair. The Chief Minister has suggested it would be convenient to take his statement first because it deals with the matters which are the subject of questions, and in answer to the questions, he will presumably have to start talking about the statement and then have to repeat the statement when he makes it. So that is the argument put, I think, by the Chief Minister, but it is a matter for Members. Is  there  a  seconder  for  the  Chief  Minister's  proposition  that  we  take  the  statement  next? [Seconded] It is really a matter for Members.  I had not realised it would be opposed, but if it is opposed, do you ask for the appel, Deputy Le Claire? Are Members happy to take the statement next? Yes, the appel is called for then in relation to the proposition of the Chief Minister that the statement should be taken before questions, so I invite Members to return to their seats. If you support the Chief Minister on this matter, vote pour, if you do not, vote contre, and the Greffier will open the voting.

POUR: 31

Senator T.A. Le Sueur Senator P.F. Routier Senator P.F.C. Ozouf Senator T.J. Le Main Senator B.E. Shenton Senator F.E. Cohen Senator J.L. Perchard Senator A. Breckon

CONTRE: 12 ABSTAIN: 3 Connétable of St. Lawrence Connétable of St. John Deputy J.A. Martin (H) Connétable of St. Mary Deputy G.P. Southern (H) Deputy M. Tadier (B) Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire (H)

Deputy S.S.P.A. Power (B)

Deputy S. Pitman (H)

Deputy of St. John

Deputy of St. Mary

Senator S.C. Ferguson Senator A.J.H. Maclean Senator B.I. Le Marquand Senator F. du H. Le Gresley Connétable of St. Ouen Connétable of Trinity Connétable of Grouville Connétable of St. Clement Connétable of St. Peter Deputy R.C. Duhamel (S) Deputy of St. Martin

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier (S)

Deputy J.B. Fox (H)

Deputy of St. Ouen

Deputy of Grouville

Deputy of St. Peter

Deputy K.C. Lewis (S) Deputy I.J. Gorst (C) Deputy A.E. Jeune (B) Deputy A.T. Dupré (C) Deputy E.J. Noel (L)

Deputy A.K.F. Green (H) Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)

Deputy T.M. Pitman (H) Deputy T.A. Vallois (S) Deputy M.R. Higgins (H) Deputy D.J. De Sousa (H)

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY

3. The Chief Minister will make a statement regarding Zero/Ten

3.1 Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Chief Minister):

Members will be aware of the ongoing review process concerning Zero/Ten. The detailed background to this was set out in a note issued in December last year. The purpose of this statement is to update Members on this process and to announce measures that the Council of Ministers have taken in response. Following the E.U. (European Union) Code of Conduct Group's evaluation of Jersey's business tax regime, Ecofin asked the E.U. Council's high level working party on tax issues to review the scope of the Code of Conduct on business taxation. The working party was asked to complete its review by June 2011. On 31st January, the high level working party decided that in their view, the deemed distribution and attribution provisions do fall within the scope of the code. It concluded that because shareholders resident in Jersey are taxed on distributions they are deemed to have received, not just on those they have received, this measure is not a personal tax anti-avoidance measure, but in their view is a way of taxing domestic profits. The working party's conclusion is set out in this public report to Ecofin, a copy of which Members have been given today. The Jersey authorities have made it clear to the Code Group that these provisions are a personal tax measure and are therefore outside the scope of the code. This position was not opposed by the U.K., when in 2007 Jersey introduced the distribution as a personal anti- avoidance measure, not a business tax measure. So this is a political and not a judicial process, and therefore differences of opinion can arise. In addition, the review did not allow for meaningful dialogue with members of the Code Group or any engagement with the high level working party. We have asked that if in the future there is any review of our business tax regime, Jersey be invited to participate fully in the discussion. We also plan to discuss with U.K. Ministers the role of the U.K. Government in future discussions and how Jersey's interests can be better represented. While we disagree with the findings of the working party and the Code of Conduct Group, the Council of Ministers believes that Jersey should maintain its voluntary participation in the work of the Code Group as part of our general good neighbour policy with the E.U. Member States. Accordingly, the Council of Ministers has decided to deal with the concerns raised by the Code Group and high level working party and abolish the deemed distribution and attribution provisions from 1st January 2012. The Code Group has been informed of this decision. This of course is subject to the agreement of the States Assembly, as legislation will need to be passed. We believe that this puts our tax regime back to the position which Ecofin approved in 2003, when it was agreed that the Zero/Ten concept was acceptable. This action allows us to retain our Zero/Ten regime, while meeting the concerns of the E.U. Maintaining tax neutrality in a simple and transparent way provides stability and certainty for businesses operating here and sends a clear signal that Jersey continues to provide a competitive tax system, which will safeguard the Island's future economic well-being. The Code of Conduct Group is meeting on 17th February to undertake a formal assessment of Jersey's business tax regime as a whole, including the shareholder tax provisions. Now that we have proposed to abolish these provisions, we expect their response to reflect this. Before the Council of Ministers decided on this action, the States Treasury advised on the impact of such a change on Jersey's tax revenues. They advised that the removal of these provisions would lead to a cash flow effect from 2013 or 2014, which in any one year is not expected to exceed £10 million. We continue to seek an increasingly constructive and mutually beneficial relationship with the European Union and we will maintain our commitment to transparency and information exchange according to international standards. It is evident that tax regimes will evolve over time, as international standards develop. Members can be confident though that as we adapt and remain responsive to the international community, Jersey's essential competitiveness, economic growth and of tax neutrality with Zero/Ten at its core will always remain our highest priority.