States Meeting Transcript - 14th November 2011

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

MONDAY, 14th NOVEMBER 2011

ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER DESIGNATE .............................................3

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :........................................................................4

1. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : .........................................................5
2. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John : ......................................................5
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................6
4. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.............................................................6
5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................6
6. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:.......................................................7
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:................................................7
8. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:.........................................................7
9. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:.......................................................8
10. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:........................................................8
11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:......................................................8
12. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:................................................9
13. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:....................................................9
14. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :..........................................................10

15. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................10
16. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................10
17. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence:......................................................11
18. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................11
19. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Martin : ......................................................12
20. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................12
21. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................12
22. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................12
23. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................13
24. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:...............................13
25. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................13
26. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:..................................................14
27. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................14

2. Senator P.M. Bailhache :................................................................14

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................16
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................16
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................16
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................17
5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................17
6. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................18
7. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................18
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................18
9. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................19

10. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................19
11. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................19
12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................19
13. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................20
14. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................20
15. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................21
16. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................21
17. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................21
18. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................22
19. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................22
20. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................22
21. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................23
22. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................23
23. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................23
24. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................24

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................25 Senator I.J. Gorst :............................................................................25 Senator P.M. Bailhache : ......................................................................25

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................26

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. [13:00]

ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER DESIGNATE

The Bailiff :

May I begin by welcoming His Excellency to this, the first sitting of the new Assembly. [Approbation] Secondly, while welcoming all Members for, as I say, this first sitting of the new Assembly perhaps I can offer a special welcome to all new Members and I trust they find their time here interesting and rewarding. [Approbation] Finally, I would like on behalf of Members to thank the Dean for organising the service this morning which I felt gets the business of the Assembly off to a very good start. [Approbation] Well, as Members know, the only matter of business today is the selection of a new Chief Minister so I will begin by asking the Greffier to read the nominations received under Standing Order 116.

The Greffier of the States:

Two nominations were received for the post of Chief Minister by the deadline set out in Standing Order 115(1)(d). They were Senator Sir Philip Bailhache and Senator Ian Joseph Gorst . The nomination of Senator Bailhache was made by Senator Alan John Henry Maclean, Deputy Susan Jane Pinel of St. Clement, the Deputy of St. Martin , the Connétable of St. Helier , the Connétable of Grouville , Deputy Sean Seamus Patrick Augustine Power of St. Brelade, Senator Lyndon John Farnham and the Connétable of Trinity . The nomination of Senator Gorst was made by Senator Brian Ian Le Marquand, Deputy Andrew Kenneth Francis Green of St. Helier , Senator Paul Francis Routier, the Connétable of St. Mary, Senator Francis du Heaume Le Gresley and the Connétable of St. Lawrence. I can confirm that both candidates submitted a policy statement as required by Standing Orders and I can further confirm that I have circulated details of the nominations and the statements to all Members as required.

The Bailiff :

Under Standing Order 116(3) the order in which the candidates are to speak and be questioned is to be drawn by lots. So the Greffier is going to put the names of the 2 candidates in his ample toque and I will then draw one of them out and whichever one I draw out will go first. Senator Gorst will go first. Now, under Standing Orders each candidate must not be present and not be able to hear what is going on while the questions are asked and the speech of the other candidate is given; but before Senator Bailhache leaves I will just remind members of the procedure I think. Each candidate will speak for up to 10 minutes, the Greffier will ring a bell after 9 minutes and then ring a second bell at the end of the 10 minute period and no matter where the candidate in his speech he will have to stop at that very moment, no period of grace. Then there will be 40 minutes of questions to each candidate. I remind Members and candidates that those questions and answers must be concise; I am sure a lot of Members will wish to ask questions and, therefore, I propose to allow each Member to ask one question, not a supplementary, as otherwise in this particular matter not enough Members will be able to ask questions. Clearly if we run out of Members asking their first question then Members can ask a second question. Again, in relation to questions, a bell will be rung 3 minutes before the end of the period as a warning and a second bell will be rung at the end of the 40 minute period and this is not Mastermind where a candidate may start and then finish; whether it is somebody asking a question or the candidate in the midst of answering the question, at the end of that period it will have to cease. That seems to me the fairest to make sure that each candidate gets exactly the same amount of time. So I hope that is clear so, Senator Bailhache , would you please withdraw with a member of the Greffier's staff who will ensure Senator Bailhache is unable to hear what is going on. The only other thing to mention before starting, of course, is that Members will recall that the media are entitled to be filming at the moment and will film the statement of each candidate, but they will have to cease filming when questions start and I shall remind them of that at the appropriate moment. Very well, Senator Gorst ?

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :

Today the world faces unprecedented challenges. As a small Island community we are not immune to them. For us to overcome these issues we must work together to harness the passion, energy and potential of each and every one of us. This must be our prime concern over the next 3 years. During the Senatorial hustings I declared my intention to stand for Chief Minister. I have immense pride in this Island. For me, politics is about public service in the interest of all Islanders. In my 6 years in the States I have acted with integrity and honesty. As a Minister I have shown that I am not afraid to act, to make the decisions that are necessary for the long term future of the Island. I have experience of Government and I understand the issues that we face today. I believe in applying traditional values to the modern world; in prevention rather than cure; in planning for the future rather than burying our heads in the sand; in action rather than prevarication. The cornerstones of my beliefs are family, community and opportunities for all. I have a vision of a society where we protect the most vulnerable and where everybody has the opportunity to fulfil their potential. These aspirations are magnified in the context of the challenges we face. Now more than ever we need to foster a successful and cohesive community that builds on Jersey's unique community spirit; where all Islanders have the opportunity to succeed; where people who work hard and strive to do well see the fruits of their labours; where those who take responsibility for themselves get the support they deserve; and where assistance is available for those who need help. It is every parent's desire to give their child the best start in life; our aim must be to give a younger generation the personal and practical skills necessary to contribute to our community and to succeed in the job market. A greater emphasis on vocational skills is crucial to this; we do not want people left behind. Education is an economic as well as a social necessity. We should remember that a decent education, coupled with a job, provides a sense of worth and a purpose and is the best anti-crime policy, anti-welfare policy, and the best foundation for a strong community. The disappointing news about fulfilment has made job creation even more of a priority. We are already offering training and intensive personal support through Advance to Work, Advance Plus and Enhanced Work Zone. We must do more to encourage job creation through social security contribution holidays, job subsidies and importantly reviewing the granting of job licenses. In every way a job has to be regarded as preferable to a life on benefits. Income support is a lifeline, not a way of life. If someone has a chance of a job then they have a responsibility to take it. Of course we must never forget that some Islanders are unable to work or can only undertake limited work; we must support those who find themselves in this position and ensure that they have access

to every opportunity. [13:15]

Ultimately it is businesses and entrepreneurs that deliver economic growth, tax revenues and jobs; we need to create the right environment where new businesses can start, grow, thrive and succeed. To do this we must stimulate the abilities, talents and creative innovation of Islanders. Government has to promote the message that Jersey is very much open for business. To secure our economic future it is vital that we maintain effective relationships with other jurisdictions. I have already represented Jersey on the international stage in the U.S. (United States) and across the developing world as detailed in my statement. Creating opportunities is part of the solution for enabling young Islanders who are working hard and seeking to better themselves to have a home of their own; a home where they can bring up a family, that gives them a stake in our society, encouraging them to stay and contribute to the Island. Reintroducing the States Loan Scheme, creating a loan scheme for deposits and shared ownerships schemes are all potential ways forward. There are of course a host of other issues that we need to address; modernising the public service must continue; we need sound public finances - we cannot mortgage the future of our children by loading them with unsustainable debt. The number of Islanders over 65 will double by 2040; we are already taking

sensible and timely action to address the challenges posed by the ageing population, especially in terms of long term care and pension age; actions I took as Minister for Social Security. We need to give effect to the proposals set out in the Health green paper' that will deliver a health system that is safe, sustainable and affordable. Redesigning services with more focus on community based options will ensure that our public resources are spent more efficiently. This will allow us to improve the health and treatment of Islanders, focusing on education and prevention in areas such as alcoholism, diet and smoking. I have already made changes to the Health Insurance Fund that will deliver a more positive partnership with G.P.s (general practitioners). During the recent election Islanders made clear that they expect us as an Assembly to get on with addressing the everyday issues while at the same time dealing with the subject of electoral reform. That is why I have supported and will continue to support an Electoral Commission to find a fair and lasting solution. However, in the short term a more inclusive approach to Government would result from an increasing the number of Members who play a role in policy development and subsequent implementation. I will give Assistant Ministers more of a cross-departmental remit and I will support a reinvigorated scrutiny function operating as a critical friend.' Proper scrutiny of decisions leads to better Government. Today I am asking Members to put aside their own individual interests in favour of the Island's interests. There is much that we can do, much that we can change, much that we can achieve if we work together. I want a new era of politics underpinned by respect and co-operation. This will require a new maturity from every one of us; only in this way can we restore public confidence in this Assembly. The challenges we face are serious but with every challenge comes opportunity. My vision - built around an opportunity economy and a responsible society - is the right way forward; it is the right one for this Assembly, the right one for our community and the right one for future generations. Success only comes with the right ideas, the right approach and the right leadership. I have the skills, Ministerial experience,

motivation and energy to carry out .. The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Senator, you must draw to an end. [Approbation] First of all can I remind the media they must cease filming now and secondly then just to remind Members that both questions should be concise and answers by the candidate should be concise. I will now take questions.

1. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

Could I ask the candidate; he used the phrase "income support is a lifeline not a way of life" would the candidate give his views on the situation with regard to income support as it exists at the moment at Social Security?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes, I will try to be slightly more succinct than I was in my closing remarks. I believe that income support as it stands now is that we have made changes throughout the last year to ensure that it is giving appropriate support; that people take jobs where there are jobs and we now need to see how those changes bed in. We must be very careful; it is easy for us to look at other jurisdictions - perhaps the U.K. (United Kingdom) - and believe that our system is like theirs. It is not. They are now looking to introduce a system like ours. It is an entitlement benefit, people are entitled along the lines that we as an Assembly have agreed. That is absolutely right and proper. As with anything that Government is doing of course there is always room for improvement and that is part of the challenge for the next 3 years.

2. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :

I was listening quite intently, Senator, on your comments or your speech .. The Bailiff :

Through the Chair please.

The Connétable of St. John :

Yes, my apologies on the speech of the Senator; and I heard very little to do with the area - as the former Minister will know - I have great interest in which is T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) and the likes. What will the Minister put in place please for the infrastructure of the Island given the colossal amount of work to be done in that area; and will he give us an insight on what he proposes to spend that money on?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes, as the Connétable will realise, it is difficult to even fit-in exactly what I wanted to say, let alone pick-off all the other subjects that are important and going to be important over the next 3 years. While I was taking part in the Senatorial election part of my manifesto there was investing for the future and I spoke a lot there about investment infrastructure. I believe that we as a Government unfortunately have been guilty of not investing appropriately in the past; we are now having to deal with that. We must develop new mechanisms to invest in that infrastructure and I know the Connétable is particularly keen on drains and that is an area that we need to address, along with a new liquid waste strategy that we require. We must be creative in how we use the money that we have currently got. We have seen a new investment strategy lodged only last week which gives some indications perhaps of how we could address those issues. We know that there are ideas around public/private partnerships and we know that P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) suggested that we should be looking at borrowing. We must look at all these areas because it is absolutely critical that we do invest going forward because what we cannot do is leave unmanageable debt to our children and to our grandchildren.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Given the financial pressures facing us, what priority would the Senator give to a serious business transformation programme?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not sure whether the Senator has quite had time to read my statement or not but in there I outlined the need for a modernisation of public service. We need to change the culture. One of the questions that we need to ask ourselves; the service that we are providing, should Government be providing it? Could it be provided elsewhere? We should not just of course look at cost when we are asking that question but we should also look at quality of service because that is just as important and in some areas of course more important. It is absolutely critical if we are to continue to balance our books that we have a transformation. We need to transform the way that we manage property; we need to transform the way that we use our office space and we need to transform our terms and conditions.

4. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Does the candidate agree that the setting up of the committee of inquiry into historical abuse is a priority for the next Council of Ministers and if not, why not? If in agreement would the candidate give the Assembly a categorical assurance that the appointment of a chairman and terms of reference for a committee of inquiry will be brought to the States for approval in early 2012.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

In the interest of brevity perhaps I could say yes and yes.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

What single characteristic distinguishes this candidate from the other candidate; and what in particular does this candidate for Chief Minister intend to have achieved by the end of his 3-year term?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not think it is for either candidate to say what it is necessarily that is different about them as opposed to the other. It is for each candidate to outline their vision and talk about the issues that they wish to see addressed. I believe that we cannot afford to carry on in the way that we have for the last 3 years being personal, being petty about politics and ideas. [Approbation] We are facing such overwhelming pressures that we absolutely must work together. It will require each one of us to sometimes put aside our own personal differences in the best interests of our Island and of our community; and if Members do not wish to do that I will be so bold as to say then please do not vote for me today because I believe it is so fundamental.

6. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

Further to news that the U.K. is shortly to end low value consignment relief on goods entering the United Kingdom from the Channel Islands; what action, if any, would the candidate take to convince the U.K. Government to maintain the status quo?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

We have been quite a long time in getting to where we are today. Ministers have been communicating and liaising with our colleagues in Guernsey, with industry, and with the U.K. Government. It appears at this point that it is very difficult for us now once the announcement has been made to deliver the status quo. We must remember that this is an internal taxation issue of the United Kingdom. Yes, we must stand up for our rights; yes, we must stand up when something appears to be discriminatory, but it is a decision of the United Kingdom Government and it appears to me that it will - as I have said - be difficult to return to the status quo at this point in time. But there is a lot that we can do to continue to talk and communicate with the U.K. Government; there is a lot that we can continue to do to talk and help industry here because one of the fundamental concerns obviously is the effect on those individuals in this particular industry.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

I wonder if the candidate could outline what he sees as his vision for planning policy and in what areas in particular would he like to see radical improvements?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Planning policy; as the Deputy will know I normally sit on the other side of planning policy and fight against development. I think that the next Minister of Planning and Environment must give the majority, if not all, of his or her powers to the Planning Applications Panel. [Approbation] It cannot be appropriate for one individual to be making such decisions.

[13:30]

I think anecdotally it is becoming evident that there are problems in the Planning Department, particularly with the speed that applications are coming through; and we must be aware that applications going through Planning in a timely fashion help the economy and there are some blockages there now. We must, as a priority, make sure that whatever is causing those blockages is removed. But we must at the same time ensure that all applications comply with the policies that this Assembly has approved. [Approbation]

8. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

With Island families facing the threat of an increase in tuition fees can the candidate tell Members what he feels that he can do to assist those middle-income families in particular to aid them with the cost of university education?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It is my understanding we do not know yet quite how those increased tuition fees are going to affect our young people. The Education Department is currently negotiating - I hope is what they are doing - to ensure that we are not disadvantaged by those increases in tuition fees. In my statement

one of the proposals that I have put forward is that there are greater, if not full, tax relief in university fees. I think that will go a long way to helping the current situation, those middle- income families who currently find the cost of tuition fees excessive, and hopefully it will tie-in with what has developed when we finally know what the new fees are going to be. It is another area where we must continue to fight our corner and make sure that we are not disadvantaged as we have been in the past.

9. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Bearing in mind it seems quite obvious that the first 2 Chief Ministers never really either understood or committed the need to diversify the economy, even noting the candidate's statement, what assurances can he give that for him this commitment will be more than just words?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I believe that the Economic Development Department are committed to diversifying the economy. It is very difficult. There are 2 roles that I see going forward - and I have got to be careful because the current Minister is sat right in front of me - there are 2 roles that I see Economic Development need to really pick up and run with over the next 3 years; and that is becoming a body which provides seed capital for local entrepreneurs and businesses who have good, well-tested, well- researched ideas, giving them a little bit of financial support to get on and see if they can make it a success. The second is supporting local businesses where they encounter Government departments as a blockage to what they want to achieve.

10. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

The candidate talked about those who work hard being able to see the fruits of their labour. Many of those who work in the fulfilment industry are on zero hour contracts on little more than the minimum wage with scarce prospect of any redundancy packages should they be made unemployed. For them the distinct fruit of their labour is unemployment and hardship. Would the Minister comment on the morality of companies who return obscene profits on the back of dubious employment practices, such as some companies in Jersey; and would he also say what he did to try and eliminate these practices in his 3 years at Social Security?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

If I can take the last bit first; I introduced redundancy payments, I introduced an insolvency scheme; they are basic rights that I believe employees should expect in a mature democracy. I cannot - having spent 3 years as the political custodian of the Employment Law - condone the use of zero hours contracts when proper appropriate contracts should be in place, it is only right. This Assembly has made a decision to give employment protection to members of our community and we should not condone it where employers are trying to avoid the protections that we believe should be in place. Ministers have and will continue - whoever they are, I believe, on Thursday - to try and find ways forward for those individuals who find themselves now perhaps looking at unemployment because of what is happening to the fulfilment industry. I have listed some of the things that I believe we should do, not only in my statement but in my speech. Economic Development is working with employers to see if we cannot match-up vacancies that they are currently going to have either over the Christmas period or later on with the skills of those people who are already in the fulfilment industry. That is a body of work which will have to be a priority over the months up to Christmas and beyond.

11. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

One of the criticisms of the previous Council of Ministers was its use of spin and the lack of openness and transparency. Would the candidate give an undertaking (a) that he personally will not engage in spin and will be open and transparent in his dealings with the Assembly and with Scrutiny Panels; (b) that he will expect the same from his Council of Ministers; and (c) that he will take urgent steps to introduce the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law recently passed by this Assembly and will start doing so in 2012.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I hope that I have not spun so far in my 6 years in the States; I believe in giving balanced, accurate information and explaining the issues. Unfortunately of course sometimes one man's balanced, accurate explanation of the issues is another man's spin. But it is important that we are open, that we do not engage in spin, because it is important that we explain the issues to our community about the decisions that we have to make, the challenges that we are facing as an Assembly and as a community. It is only by explaining how we have arrived at those decisions and all the facts that we have had to take into consideration that our community will understand and that understanding is part of the process of them regaining faith in the decisions that we make here in this Assembly on their behalf. It would be nice to think that we could introduce the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law in 2012; from the information I have seen and the readiness of the departments that just will not be practical. I know that the last Council of Ministers did and I believe that the new Council of Ministers will commit to do all that they can to ensure that processes and procedures are in place, that in can be introduced in early course. As I said in my statement, when I am picking Ministers - should I be successful today - then I will be asking them whether they are prepared to build the new consensus and leadership that I believe is absolutely critical and that will be a criteria for me putting them forward for nomination to this Assembly.

12. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

The position of St. Helier was one of the issues addressed by the working group chaired by the former Deputy of Trinity , the late David Crespel. The welfare burden has been equalised but does the candidate believe the position of St. Helier is fair and if not what will he do to correct it?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not sure exactly which position that is unfair that the Connétable is referring to, unless it is rates.

The Connétable of St. Helier :

I am only alluding to the report produced after Clothier that said St. Helier's position was unfair and needed addressing. I simply am interested in the candidate's thoughts about that.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As the Connétable will know, Members get many, many reports through their door. I suspect if it was before Clothier it was a report that was issued prior to my election to this Assembly. I may of course be incorrect and if that report is referring to the unfairness with regard to political representation in light of the fact that it was subsequent to Clothier - the Connétable is nodding - then I hope that those issues will be addressed by an electoral commission.

The Bailiff :

The Connétable of Trinity . Did I not see your light Connétable ? [Aside] [Laughter]

13. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter :

I would just like the Senator if he could clarify for me 2 comments he made, both similar; one about balancing having more people involved in Government and one could assume from that it is Assistant Ministers, but that may be a wrong assumption on my part. But equally about giving Assistant Ministers a cross-departmental mandate. Are the 2 interrelated and how does he see that cross-departmental mandate working in practice?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

There are going to be a number of processes running in parallel throughout the next 3 years, in my opinion. One is going to be changes to the electoral process; that will without doubt necessitate changes to the number of Ministers, the number of Assistant Ministers and how Scrutiny functions and the number of people who are able to sit on Scrutiny. That is one of those processes which I believe will be working away over the course of the next 2 or 3 years. In the intervening period I am of the belief that we need to involve more people more directly in departments and in the activity that goes on day-to-day. That might be through working parties; in fact I suspect it will be, so that we can take issues, we can set up working parties that can liaise with Ministers and Assistant Ministers and make sure that some of the issues that have been stalled over the last number of years let us take for example the alcohol strategy - it just needs people with an interest, people in the Assembly with ability, to sit down in a working party and start to drive that forward in conjunction with the Ministers. That is one. Cross-departmental Assistant Ministers: it is about time we had a Minister for the Elderly or an Assistant Minister for the Elderly. It is about time that we had a cross-departmental Assistant Minister for Children. I think we could all, if we considered the challenges that we face, think of other areas where Assistant Ministers could have a much more roving mandate than they currently have which would enable work to happen in a speedier fashion.

The Bailiff :

I think I must go to a handwriting class. It was the Deputy of Trinity that [Laughter]

14. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

I take that as a compliment, Sir. Following on from what the candidate has just said about excessive alcohol problems. How would the candidate look at solving this problem and would one of the issues be his thoughts on minimum pricing?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Of course, minimum pricing I would not personally wish to see but perhaps on behalf of the good of everyone in our community, that is something that we certainly should consider. As I understand it, one of the problems with the alcohol strategy is just that, that there are one, 2, if not 3 departments involved. One department, perhaps, would like to see it advanced quickly. Another department would not like to see it advanced at all and a third department would just like to see it advanced whenever it can be advanced. That cannot be appropriate. We know that some in our community do struggle with this problem and, to them, it is an overwhelming problem. We should not step aside from that. We must meet those challenges. If it means minimum pricing, if we can provide the evidence to say that that will deal with the issue and that will alleviate the problem, then perhaps that is what we should consider.

15. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

The new Chief Minister will sit as the chairman of the States Employment Board. Can the candidate please explain what new human resources policies, if any, he would like to see implemented?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think that we have probably got quite a few policies that we have not yet implemented. I sat on a working group with Deputy Le Hérissier and the Deputy of St. Peter and we talked about succession planning, modern managers and we produced of course, I would say this, would I not, we produced a rather good policy on the issue but it seems that that has not been acted upon. It is issues like that we need to make sure that we act upon them where we have agreement.

16. Senator A. Breckon:

I think the Senator mentioned in his opening speech about strengthening Scrutiny. Can he say where he believes Scrutiny is weak and also could the Minister say whether or not he believes that Social Security benefited from the scrutiny process with reports on income support and a funded elderly care scheme?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I said earlier, changes to Scrutiny will inevitably, in my opinion, result from the changes to the form of Government and the electoral mandates that we might have going forward. I am of the opinion that Scrutiny has worked the best where it has been topic-based. We have had some absolutely fantastic hand-in-hand topic-based Scrutiny reviews, departments and Scrutiny Panels, and they have produced excellent results.

[13:45]

They have helped Ministers to get to the right policy and they have helped Scrutiny Panels to see that they are listened to. For example, the Rural Strategy was an excellent report. With regard to his particular question, there can be no doubt whatsoever that his Scrutiny review into long-term care stimulated action and allowed me to take that forward and to deliver what I delivered. Perhaps that is not the resounding comment I can make with regard to income support purely because we in the department were already doing an income support Scrutiny review but what it has done is highlighted areas that we already knew to a certain extent needed to be addressed and reviewed in that income support review.

17. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence :

During my time as Assistant Minister in Treasury and Resources, I have formed the opinion that there are currently 2 Members of this Assembly who can successfully fill the role of Minister for Treasury and Resources over the next 3 years, being Senator Ozouf and Senator Gorst . Who will the candidate nominate and vote for for this extremely important role?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am grateful to the Deputy for his support with regard to my abilities. [Laughter] Today is the election for Chief Minister. Thursday and/or Friday will be the election for a Minister for Treasury and Resources and 8 other Ministers. Some Members may have received an email overnight suggesting that it was a package. We do not have that system in Jersey. We vote for each individual position. Any single Member of this Assembly can challenge the position or the person put forward by the Chief Minister for those offices. That is absolutely right and proper. We are not a party system. We are an independent system and it will be for each Member to decide later this week who it is that they wish to see as Minister for Treasury and Resources. Having said that, I have currently 2 choices in mind. The Deputy might not like what I am now going on to say, that is either Senator Le Marquand or Deputy Le Fondré.

18. Senator L.J. Farnham :

Given the diffidence with which the Island appears to be treated from time to time by outside sources, I would like to ask what relevant experience does the candidate have in relation to representing and protecting Jersey's interests, privileges and opportunities overseas but particularly in the U.K.?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I outlined in my statement, I have represented Jersey on the international stage in the past. I have, like many Members, met various visiting foreign dignitaries in our community as well. I believe that we, as an Assembly, must work together. We must harness the talents and abilities of every member of this community. It will not be that one Member is able to perform every task and I think that we must move away from the idea that one person will be able to do everything. I passionately care about this community. I will defend this community's rights and privileges to the hilt and that is how I will fulfil those duties and the functions of Chief Minister, should I be successful.

19. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Martin :

A follow-on because he asked my question - the Constable of St. Peter - about the enhancement of an Assistant Minister. I heard the Senator say that there could be a cross-departmental and that would involve possibly a Minister well, I am presuming means Assistant Minister for the Elderly and possibly Assistant Minister for Children, et cetera. Does the Senator believe that without being elected properly in this House, anybody should have that much responsibility and if he does not, what is he going to do about it?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I would not wish to see this as just simply moving the Assistant Ministers into a process where they are elected by this Assembly at this moment in time outside of what is brought forward by the Electoral Commission. I do believe that this is something that we should consider and it will help to raise those issues but it will, as the Deputy knows in the previous role that she had as Assistant Minister for Health, there were issues that she was facing that were very much tied-up with Social Security. If she was able to have a roving remit that meant that she could feed into Social Security and deal with those issues, I think it would have enhanced in a very positive way the issues that she was trying to address and that is what I am talking about.

20. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier :

Could the Senator give his views on Jersey becoming an independent Island State and by that I mean independent from the U.K.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think that the issue of independence and our international relations with other communities has moved on. It might have seemed appropriate at some point for us to move to independence from

the United Kingdom. While we continue to face pressures from that direction, I believe that the other pressures and the greater pressures are coming from the rest of Europe and from other jurisdictions, and that is where we are now going to need to target our focus towards in delivering our message about who we are and what we do.

21. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The candidate spoke about his potential Minister for Treasury and Resources. Could he say who his nominees for Health and Social Services and Education will be and will he ask those nominees to stick to the Comprehensive Spending Review targets?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I said earlier, today is not the day for election of those other Ministers. If I am successful today, then I will give thought to who those individuals might be. I am aware of a number of Members who would like to be put forward for those particular positions. Any nominee for the office of Minister that I put forward, of course, I would be asking them to comply with the previously agreed decisions of this Assembly and that is to make the savings. That is not the only bad news. Each department is going to have to find more savings and work more efficiently and more effectively in the future as well.

22. Senator P.F. Routier:

Is the candidate aware that there are currently stressors on the respite services with children and adults with learning disabilities and can he give any comfort to families who have a child with learning disabilities that, if elected, he will ensure that the provision of good and sufficient respite care will be available?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Another one in which I can be brief. Yes, and yes.

23. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :

A major concern to Islanders at the moment is that of population and migration. Does the Senator feel we have it right at the moment and, if not, what measures would he put in place to ensure that we do?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

We may not have it right at this precise moment in time but, as the Deputy knows, we, in this Assembly, have approved a new housing and jobs law. I know the Deputy does not necessarily agree with me but I believe that that, with the ability to allow us to review job licences and thereby control the number of non-local licences, will be absolutely critical in this area. I am committed to doing that. I have talked about it for a number of months. The Deputy will know that in my time at Social Security, we liaised often on a daily basis with regard to the skills of the unemployed individuals that we were seeing in our community and the requests for non-local licences that Economic Development were seeing from businesses, and we made the case very successfully in hundreds of cases that those new licences were not required because there were people already living in our community who could undertake those jobs. It is difficult. It is easier to import new labour. It will not be easy for us to deal with this issue but it is one that we absolutely have to get to grips with because otherwise we are leaving people who are already living in our community out of work and unemployed and that cannot be acceptable any way that we look at it.

24. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

The candidate will understand that even given the higher turnout this time, there is a huge disconnect between this Assembly and ownership, as it were, of our Island heritage and future and a large section of our community. What, in terms of his passions and values, can he bring to bear so that all those who live in this Island can think of it as their Island and look at this legislature and think of it as their Government?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I outlined, I hope clearly, in my statement - and I have spoken more of it today in my opening remarks - that I believe that Jersey is a fantastic community. I love living here. I am proud of this Island. However, I am aware that there are too many members of our community who do not feel the same way about the Jersey I love and it is absolutely critical that we put in place measures. I have talked about work, I have talked about houses, I have talked about health, I have talked about a secure retirement and we must not just talk about these issues but we must act and deliver and it is through that delivery, together, that I believe we will re-engage our community with this Assembly and it is the right thing to do.

25. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade :

Can I ask the Senator to expand on his reply to Deputy Le Hérissier and, in particular, explain the simplified planning arrangement he proposes for the delivery of affordable homes which is outlined in the strategic paper that we have seen and please confirm or otherwise to the Assembly whether or not this implies a change to the policy of protection of greenfield sites under the existing Island Plan policy and whether this new arrangement will result in an improvement in public confidence in the planning system?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It does not involve a change to the Island Plan as it was recently approved, which gave extra protection to green space. One of the key issues that we need to address is the use of States-owned sites and we need to evaluate the units that can be delivered there. We need to understand what taking out the value of that land will do to the affordability of the units that we build on those sites and, at the same time, we need to communicate with developers to find a process whereby they might be able to deliver affordable units on developments that they are bringing forward as well but it absolutely does not mean a deviation from the recently approved Island Plan.

26. Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour :

Does the candidate support the concept of Steady State' economics for an Island State economy? Senator I.J. Gorst :

I must say that, on balance, I do not. We have seen decline in our economy over the last number of years so therefore we do have headroom to see economic growth, as I have said in my opening comments. Businesses provide jobs, they provide tax revenues. We need to enable them to get on and do that. Yes, we need to use our resources carefully. We need to use our resources more effectively. We need to use our resources more efficiently.

27. Deputy G.P. Southern :

What moves, if any, will the potential Chief Minister propose to ensure an improvement in Jersey's international standing on tax transparency?

[14:00]

Senator I.J. Gorst :

We already have a programme of signing T.I.E.A.s (Tax Information Exchange Agreements) across the world. I fully support that and we need to in my mind continue that and perhaps even up the pace. This is part of the work that we need to undertake. We do commit to comply with the best international standards. We should, in my opinion, neither be in advance of those nor behind them. We should just be compliant with those international standards but as I said in answer to a question earlier, we need to get out more, as it were, and talk about what we do and

The Bailiff :

Very well. I am afraid that is that, then. [Approbation] No applause from the gallery, please. The gallery is to remain quiet. Very well. Then Senator Gorst will leave to a secure environment and we will invite Senator Bailhache to return.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Sir, during this break, may I ask some direction from the Chair? I was under the impression that question time was reserved for elected members of the States and while I appreciate the Chair probably thought that there were no questions, no lights on, what is the position with unelected members asking questions?

The Bailiff :

The position is that it is entirely a matter for the Chair. I invited the Dean because there were no other Members at that stage who had indicated with their light but I do normally give preference to elected Members. Very well, then. If I now turn to Senator Bailhache , the media may now start recording again while Senator Bailhache speaks but then will have to stop when he has finished. Senator?

2. Senator P.M. Bailhache :

It feels very different down here. I have put my name forward as a candidate for Chief Minister for 3 main reasons. The first is that I think that my electoral platform of constitutional reform can best be achieved by a partnership between the Council of Ministers and the P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) and I should like to lead the Council of Ministers in that respect. There is an overwhelming public demand for reform and I am sure that Members will respond to it. Secondly, since the election, I have been approached by literally hundreds of people asking me to stand and that is pressure that is difficult to resist. But thirdly, my re-immersion in the parliamentary process has opened my eyes to the many threats that the Island faces from the outside

and I believe that my experience of dealing with Whitehall and the international community puts me in a stronger position than my opponent to defend Jersey's interests in these difficult times. Members may ask whether it is a problem that my brother is the Deputy Bailiff . If I may say so, the public clearly thought not and nor do I. The Deputy Bailiff is a man of independence and honour and the idea that biased rulings might be given just on my account seems to me remote. If Members elect me, there will, I hope, be culture changes. I have had numerous discussions with Members and former Members since announcing my candidacy, discussions which will, so far as I am concerned, continue if I am elected. I have been shocked by the number of times I have been told that Members did not find the last 3 years a pleasant experience. Politics is a serious business but it should also be enjoyable and fulfilling. I do not want, and I must say I am not prepared to work in, the kind of negative and untrusting environment that seems to have characterised the operation of the last Assembly. When I was last here as an elected Member, everyone felt involved and useful. I want to restore that sense of belonging. That is not a bit of slushy idealism. Many of us will have sharply opposing views as to the way forward and there will be passionate debates but those who lose the argument should not feel that their views are without value and any Member who wants to play a constructive part in the governance of the Island should be enabled to do so. So how do we bring about this change for the better? Senator Gorst has said that he wants to be inclusive and by implication to create a rainbow coalition in the Council of Ministers. Now, coalitions can be fine, even when composed of people of strongly differing views, provided that those people are prepared to compromise and to accept after full discussion a majority view. That is what I mean by collective responsibility. The rainbow coalitions that we have had in the last 6 years where Ministers have felt free publicly to disagree with each other have not worked and have just spread discord to the rest of the Assembly. I do not want more of the same. I want to offer Members something different and involvement in the decision-making process and inclusiveness in a different way. I make 2 broad suggestions. The first is that the so-called Troy Rule should be abolished. At present, the rules prevent the Assembly from appointing more than 12 Assistant Ministers. By regulation, we could increase that to 15. If we wanted to do more, we would have to amend the States of Jersey Law. For my part, I think we could have up to 20 Assistant Ministers. That would help Ministers to delegate more functions to their assistants and would also, assuming that Ministers acted as they should in discussing important issues with their assistants, involve more Members in significant ministerial decisions. Secondly, the performance of Scrutiny Panels could be enhanced. At present, some work well but some do not. At the new Members' induction on Scrutiny, there was consensus that mutual trust between the Scrutiny chairman and the relevant Minister was an important component. Scrutiny should not be used to pursue the personal hobbyhorses of committee chairmen rather than critically to examine Ministerial policy [Approbation] and Ministers should be obliged to treat Scrutiny seriously and with respect. Scrutiny is a vital part of our political system. If the number of Assistant Ministers is to be increased, the other side of that coin is that they should be able to serve on Scrutiny Panels obviously outside their area of operation. That would strengthen Scrutiny and I am surprised that the last Council of Ministers was opposed to that reform. Good scrutiny, however, requires skills that are not always present. For example, the examination of witnesses is an art that can be learned. The Attorney General, who was a qualified advocacy trainer before his appointment, may be able to guide us. I found reading the transcripts of some of the Scrutiny hearings depressing. Members had good points but they could not extract the information that they wanted. Sloppy behaviour by Ministers and their officials was not punished. If witnesses turn up without the proper documents and without properly preparing themselves, the hearing should be adjourned so that the witnesses can get their act together. Chairing a panel or a committee fairly and effectively is another art that

can be learned. Sorting out the way we work is critical to achieving the ends that most of us seek. We all want to improve access to affordable housing so that more young people can get their foot on the housing ladder. We want to protect children from abuse and to ensure that every child

leaves school literate and numerate and with appropriate skills for life. We want to be creative in getting unemployed people back to work and persuading others to work on to a later age in order to combat the demographic time bomb. We want to strengthen our health service and enhance social safety nets so that no one is frightened of growing old. So far as possible in this imperfect world, we want to create a fair society where people are proud to call themselves Jerseymen and Jerseywomen. We want a cohesive society at ease with itself and tolerant of all the minorities in our midst. No one surely will disagree with any of that. A strong and balanced economy based upon prudent fiscal policies is a prerequisite for achieving these aims. We may differ on the means to get there but the end cannot be controversial. We have in broad terms an excellent public service but the Council of Ministers needs to articulate clearly its vision for business transformation envisaged by the Comprehensive Spending Review. The first priority, however, is to create a Council of Ministers working together as a team. We cannot have a viable team if it contains Members who fundamentally disagree with each other. There cannot be any proper accountability to the Assembly. The Council should be bound by rules of collective responsibility. If elected as Chief Minister, I will offer Members leadership from the front. Whether Members follow will, of course, be a matter for them but I will not shrink from giving a lead as to the way in which I believe that a particular problem should be resolved. My leadership style is collaborative. I have never liked giving orders. I seek to persuade and if I fail, I accept the majority view. I think that together we can create a new and positive dynamic in Jersey politics. As an Assembly, we have much work to do to regain the public's trust but the first step is to learn to trust each other. [Approbation]

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can the candidate state clearly how the States can possibly work better if, as he plans, he reduces the number of Deputies while enhancing the role of the Constables, especially in the light of the verdict delivered by the voters of St. Brelade on their previous Constable who chose to be a Minister?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I think that the public has shown very clearly at the hustings, certainly for the Senatorial elections, that they want the Constables to remain in the States. The Constables are a vital link between the Parishes and this Assembly and to remove the Constables from the States would be to diminish not just the office of Constable but to diminish the Parishes themselves, and I do not believe that that is what the people want. So far as the Deputies are concerned, I have proposed that the remaining number of Members of the States should be apportioned between Deputies sitting in larger constituencies. This is clearly a matter for discussion and a matter for debate but I do not personally think that that diminishes the role of the Deputy .

2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I make no secret of the fact I have always advocated greater co-operation with our sister island of Guernsey. If elected, which areas does the candidate believe that these relationships could be improved with our northern Bailiwick?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I think that there are numerous areas where co-operation could be improved between Jersey and Guernsey.

[14:15]

One of the obvious first areas to address would be in the context of fisheries where there has been a total breakdown of trust between the islands as a result of action taken I am afraid by our sister Bailiwick but there are, no doubt, other areas as well.

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

With regard to the Electoral Commission, probably the greatest mistake leading to the disaster of Ministerial government was cherry-picking against all advice. Having taken that majority decision to go for Electoral Commission, the candidate says he accepts the majority view, so why does he want to waste more States time by going back on a decision? Is it clearly that he just does not like it?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I think my answer to that question is that I do not believe that this is an issue that the public wants kicked out into the long grass, and I fear that the appointment of an Electoral Commission might very well amount to an abdication of responsibility by this Assembly. We have had a report by the Clothier panel, which was not entirely accepted by this Assembly. It seems to me that it would be the worst of all options to set up another Commission composed, perhaps, of outsiders who would have to learn how the Island works and then to find that the Assembly was not sympathetic to the conclusions reached by that Commission. That would be to let the public down. The public has shown quite clearly that it wants reform and it does seem to me that the solution of the problem is not too difficult.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

With due respect, it was the majority view. The candidate did say he supported it. The Bailiff :

Deputy , you know the rules. One question each and it is question time not statement time so please do not try and get in a further observation.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Earlier this year, the States approved by a democratic majority decision that there should be a committee of inquiry into historical child abuse. One of the terms of reference that was agreed - again by a majority in the States - was that among others, the role of Crown Officers, including whether there was any political interference with decisions to prosecute, should be one of the terms of reference and it falls to the Chief Minister and his department to implement this committee of inquiry. So, firstly, is the candidate supportive of the committee of inquiry and, secondly, which steps would he take to minimise any perception of real or perceived conflict of interest, given that he was one of the Crown Officers and a member of the judiciary at the time?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

Dealing with that last point first. I am not sure that I had any involvement in any of the issues relating to the child abuse inquiry but if I am wrong in that respect, then clearly I would have to consider my position as to whether I took any part in the decision-making process. So far as the broader question is concerned, it is a sensitive and very difficult matter. The Assembly has agreed to establish a committee of inquiry. The cost of that inquiry was put by the Minister for Treasury and Resources at £10 million. For my part, I think that was an underestimate and I think that the costs could very well mount to £20 million or even more, given the range of the terms of reference that have been adopted by the Assembly. That perhaps is not the most important issue. What is important is that we find a means to bring closure to an issue that has divided the Island and caused anxiety for far too long. What is also important, it seems to me, is to bring reconciliation to those who have suffered from abuse in the past so that at the end of a long process by a committee of inquiry, if we have one, they feel that something has been gained. There is nothing to be gained by creating a tortuous process which does not, at the end of the day, satisfy those who have suffered from abuse. So it is a very difficult issue.

5. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

What changes, if any, will the candidate be seeking in relation to the States of Jersey Law 2005, Part 4, Article 18(2)(e) to allow greater participation by non-Ministerial Members in setting and deciding strategic policy directives?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

My understanding is that the first duty of a new Council of Ministers is to produce a draft strategic policy for discussion and consideration by this Assembly and the process of arriving at that strategic policy is one that must clearly involve as many Members as possible. I am not able to be specific at this stage as to how I would create that involvement but it is certainly important that there should be involvement.

6. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

Does the candidate believe that Policy H3 in the Island Plan, which seeks the provision of affordable housing on developments of 6 or more homes at a rate of 12.5 per cent rising

incrementally to 20 per cent after 5 years, is viable when the Island, and, in particular, the construction industry, is in recession?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I think it is very important to do everything that is possible to achieve the aim that is set out in that policy of the Island Plan. I do think that we have available to us land which can be released for housing and should be released for housing and that we have the means whereby this aim can be achieved. One of the difficulties which has arisen in the past in relation to shared ownership is one about which I feel strongly because I consider, having played a part in the drafting of the law on co- ownership some years ago, that there is a means whereby the existing law can provide a means of satisfying the desire of shared ownership and I think that that would greatly enhance the availability of affordable housing for members of the public.

7. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Having read the candidate's statement and heard his answer to an earlier question, I am going to ask him to clarify as to whether what he is saying in relation to the 30 other Members of the States that his proposals would neither include Senators nor would include keeping the link between the small country Parishes and their individual Deputy .

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I think that the problem that has bedevilled constitutional reform in this Assembly is that there have always been particular groups of people who were opposed to particular reforms. Some have opposed the abolition of the Senators. Some have protected the position of Deputies of small Parishes. Some have wanted the Constables in; some out, and so on and if we are to achieve reform - which I remind Members is without any doubt the desire of the public- then there have to be some compromises. I do not personally necessarily rule out in a new composition of the States a body of Senators but that is a body to be discussed. What is important is that we get on and find a solution to the problem.

8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Given the financial pressures facing us, what priority would the Senator give to a serious business transformation programme and who would he propose as Minister for Treasury and Resources to pursue this?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I certainly think that a business transformation scheme in development of the Comprehensive Spending Review is extremely important and if I may be permitted to say so, the Scrutiny Panel report prepared by Senator Ferguson was a model of constructive criticism [Approbation] of the Council of Ministers and the difficulties which they had not entirely resolved. In answer to the second question, I have obviously given some considerable thought to the composition of a Council of Ministers if the Assembly were to honour me by electing me. I have spoken to each Member and sought to ascertain the aspirations of each of them. So far as the Minister for Treasury and Resources is concerned - and it applies to all Ministries and all Members - I have made no promises. There seem to me, however, to be 2 candidates who stand head and shoulders above the

rest. The first is Senator Gorst , the second is Senator Ozouf . I have no particular predisposition but I will say that whoever is recommended by me to the Assembly will not have the same unrealistically broad-ranging functions that were held by the previous Minister for Treasury and Resources. They were not good for the individual and they were not good for the Assembly.

9. Senator P.F. Routier:

Is the candidate aware that there are currently stressors on the respite services for children and adults with learning disabilities and can the candidate give any comfort to families who have a child with learning disabilities that, if elected, he will ensure that the provision of good and sufficient respite care will be made available?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I know that this topic is particularly dear to the Senator's heart and very rightly so. I think I would answer the question by saying that I was aware of the pressures and that it seems to me that these and a number of other social issues could best be resolved by entrusting - probably to a Minister but perhaps to an Assistant Minister - a responsibility for co-ordinating a whole range of social policies in the Island and whether that should rest with the Minister for Health and Social Services or the Minister for Social Security or someone else would be a matter for discussion, but I think that these social issues do need to be addressed.

10. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Jersey people are rightly proud of the environment we live in. What are the greatest threats to our natural and urban environment and how would the candidate, if elected, seek to address them?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The greatest natural threats to our environment I suppose come from climate change which is a subject that the Assembly has not really embraced in recent years, and which I think does need to be carefully considered. So far as the town of St. Helier itself is concerned, I think there are issues which previous Assemblies have tried but not entirely succeeded in addressing in order to reclaim the town of St. Helier for ordinary people in the face of threats from the night economy. Parts of St. Helier are not very pleasant places to be at certain times of the evening and I think that a co- ordinated and holistic approach to these problems, which has been mooted before, is one that really ought to be grasped with both hands.

11. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The new Chief Minister will sit  as the chairman of the States Employment Board. Can the candidate please explain what new human resources policies he would like to see implemented, if any?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The Chief Minister is indeed the chairman or has been the chairman of the States Employment Board but I am not sure, for my part, that that is really a function that the Chief Minister ought to perform and I would certainly want to give consideration to delegating that function to an Assistant Minister if I were appointed as Chief Minister.

[14:30]

So far as the general policy of human resources is concerned, it is clear that the implementation of the Comprehensive Spending Review is going to give rise to stressors in some respects in relations with our employees and these stressors need to be addressed by full consultation, by taking people into one's confidence and by taking nobody by surprise and I certainly would want to follow policies on those lines if I were to be elected.

12. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The candidate's views on independence have perhaps been misinterpreted and caused consternation in some quarters. Could he clarify to the House, does he believe independence is, in and of itself, a good thing or would he only contemplate it under certain circumstances and if so, which?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I have made it clear on a number of occasions, certainly during the Senatorial election campaign, that I have never advocated independence for Jersey. What I have advocated is that the Island should be prepared for independence if that were the only way in which we could retain our autonomy and our privileges that we have enjoyed for more than 800 years. I do not think that it would be helpful for me to speculate on the circumstances which might give rise to a situation where it would be desirable to seek independence except that to say if the United Kingdom were to present us with a scenario where we were told that our interests, for example, in Europe, could no longer be protected by them and that it would be in our interests to become a sovereign state, then those could be circumstances when we should examine it. The important thing is not to bury our heads in the sand. We ought to be prepared for any contingency. There is a report which is lodged with the Council of Ministers making certain recommendations as to action which ought to be taken and I would like to dust that off if the Assembly elects me and follow some of those recommendations.

13. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does the candidate consider Jersey's taxation system to be fair to all its citizens and would he be prepared (a) to adopt a progressive income tax system rather than the flat rate of 20 per cent; (b) rebalance the situation where under the Zero/Ten tax regime, personal taxes account for 82 per cent of all taxes and company taxes are currently 12 per cent and falling; and (c) would he be prepared to adopt a land development tax?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

That is a very long question. I will try to give a short answer. I do not think that at this stage a graduated tax would be a sensible way to change our tax system. We have had a flat rate of 20 per cent for many years and a graduated rate of tax, although it may be necessary to examine it, but in my view, at this stage, would not be a constructive way forward. So far as Zero/Ten is concerned, Zero/Ten was a policy that was, in effect, thrust upon us because it was the only way in which the Island could retain the financial services industry. A zero rate of tax is critical to the retention of the financial services industry and Zero/Ten was a compromise that enabled the finance industry to remain here. I agree with the Deputy that there is an unfairness as to the taxation of businesses. It is not fair that businesses owned by those outside the Island do not pay tax but those inside the Island do pay tax and that is a matter which I think should be given very urgent consideration. There was a third question, but I am sorry, I have lost it. [Aside] Land development tax. I am not in favour of a land development tax for this reason. The Planning Law gives us the power to exact from developers planning agreements - planning conditions - which require the development of land in a certain way and properly used, sensibly used, those powers in the existing Planning Law can be used to achieve much the same kind of thing as a land development tax but much more easily.

14. The Deputy of Grouville :

A major concern to Islanders at this time is that of population and migration. Does the Senator feel we have it right at the moment and, if not, what measures would he put in place to ensure that we do.