States Meeting Transcript - 1st May 2012

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 1st MAY 2012

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

1. Written Questions........................................................................6

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ZERO-HOURS' CONTRACTS FOR STATES EMPLOYEES: ........6
2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING TAX INFORMATION EXCHANGE: ...................................8
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING AN INVESTIGATION INTO EFFECTIVE TAX RATES:..................................................................................9
4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING ZERO-HOURS' CONTRACTS:..........................11

2. Oral Questions...........................................................................12

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the stimulation of the Jersey economy: .................................................12 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................12

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................13
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................13
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................13
4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................14
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................14
6. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................14
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................15
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................15
9. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................16
10. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................16

2. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the total cost of the remediation at Beauport to deal with potato leachate: ....17 Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): .....17

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................17
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................18
   3. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the provision of over-60s with a free faecal occult blood test kit' at 2-yearly intervals:....18 Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................18

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................18
2. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................18
3. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................19

4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................19
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................19
6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................19

4. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding organ donation: ...............................................................................19 Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................20

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................20
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
3. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:...............................21
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................21
   5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chief Minister regarding health and criminal checks as an integral part of an immigration policy: ..............................................21 Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):.................................21

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................21
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................22
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................22
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................22
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................23
6. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................23
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................23
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................24
10. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen : ......................................................24
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................24

6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding referrals by ante-natal services staff to third sector agencies or other agencies for support and guidance: ..........................................................................24 Deputy J.A. Martin (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur): ........25

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................25
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................26
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................26
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................26

7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the provision by the new contractor of buses that are suitable for the Island's narrow roads:..................................................................26 Deputy K.C. Lewis (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):....................26

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................27

8. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chairman of Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding lessons to be learnt from the higher electoral turnout in the recent Guernsey elections:.27 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee): 27

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................28
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................28
3. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement:.................................................28
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................28

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman:...................................................................29

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding a move away from reliance on finance and greater support of industries such as tourism:.............29

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................29

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................29
2. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................30
3. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................30
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................31
5. Deputy G.P. Southern ..................................................................31
6. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................31
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................31
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
9. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade......................................................32
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................33

10. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the recent deployment by the States of Jersey Police of semi-automatic rifles on the streets of St. Helier : ..................................................................................33 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................33

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................33
2. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................34
3. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................34
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................34
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier............................................................35
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................35
7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................35

11. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the dismissal of staff convicted of sexual assaults on children: .............................36 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):............36

2.11.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:................................................................36

12. Deputy J.A. Hilton of the Minister for Social Security regarding work experience placements of Jersey Employment Trust clients within government departments:......36 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ..............................36

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................36
2. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................37
3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................37
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................37
5. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................38
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................38

13. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the introduction of a tax system where all citizens and businesses bear the costs and burden of the recession:........................................................................38 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................38

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................39
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................39
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................39

14. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the pay freeze in the public and private sectors:..........................................................................40 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................40

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................40
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................40
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41
5. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................41

6. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................41
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................42

15. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding programmes in place for succession planning within the Health and Social Services Department:............................................................................43 The Connétable of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):43

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................43
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................43
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................44
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................44

3. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture...................................................................................44

1. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................44 The Deputy of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture): ....................45
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................45
3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................45
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................45
5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................46

3.5.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................46

6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................46
7. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St.Saviour:.....................................................46
8. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:.......................................................47

3.8.1 Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................47

9. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................47
10. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................47
11. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................48

3.11.1 Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................48

4. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Housing....................48

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................48 Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier (The Minister for Housing):..............................48
2. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................48
3. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................49

4.3.1 Deputy S. Power:.......................................................................49

4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

4.4.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................50

4.5.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:...................................................................50

6. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................51

4.6.1 Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................51

7. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................51
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51
9. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................52
10. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................52
11. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................52

5. Urgent Oral Question....................................................................52 5.1 The Connétable of St. John of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the action plan in place in the event of the demise of stevedore company Geaorge Troy and Sons Limited to ensure that the Island's transport and freight-handling needs are met:..53 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Economic Development):.........................53

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................53
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................53

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................54

6. Draft Strategic Plan 2012 (P.28/2012)..................................................54

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................55

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2012 (P.28/2012): amendment (P.28/2012 Amd.)................58

6.2.1 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................59

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................60 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................60

3. Draft Strategic Plan (P.28/2012) - as amended .........................................60

1. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:......................................................60
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................62
3. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................63
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................64
5. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................68
6. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................70
7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................71
8. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................74
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................74
10. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................80
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................80
12. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................83
13. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................84
14. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................85
15. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................86
16. Deputy S.Power:....................................................................86
17. Deputy A.K.F. Green:...............................................................89
18. Senator I.J. Gorst :...................................................................89

7. Draft Policing of Parks (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.23/2012) ..92

7.1 Deputy K.C. Lewis (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): ..............92

1. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:...........................................93
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................93 Deputy J.H. Young (Chairman, Environment Scrutiny Panel):................................93

8. Tourism Development Fund: assistance to the private sector (P.26/2012) ............94

8.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................95

8.1.1 The Connétable of St. Martin:..........................................................95

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................98

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

QUESTIONS

1. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY  G.P.  SOUTHERN  OF  ST.  HELIER  OF THE  CHIEF  MINISTER REGARDING ZERO-HOURS' CONTRACTS FOR STATES EMPLOYEES:

Question

Will the Chief Minister inform members how many States employees, by department, are currently employed on temporary contracts and how many of these are employed on zero-hours' contracts?

Will he further inform members of the reasons given by departments for the levels of temporary employment revealed and in particular of the justification for the use of zero-hours' contracts?

Does the Chief Minister condemn the use of zero-hours' contracts in both the public and private sectors and, if so, will he agree to work with his Minister for Social Security to eliminate their use?

Answer

Temporary fixed term contracts of employment are used to cover various operational requirements such as:

• To cover a permanent member of staff who is absent because of a period of sickness, maternity, or special leave;
• To cover seasonal resourcing requirements – ie the requirement does not exist at another time;
• Due to the fluctuation of pupil numbers and demographics within schools and colleges;

Jersey Harbours 3 Non Ministerial States Funded 12 Social Security 2 Transport and Technical Services 5 Treasury and Resources 7 Grand Total 283

States of Jersey Zero-Hours Employees paid during the month ending 31.03.2012

Department

Chief Minister's Department  2 Education, Sport & Culture 582 Health & Social Services 545 Home Affairs 17 Department of the Environment 3 Social Security 2 Transport and Technical Services 1 Non Ministerial States Funded 3 Jersey Airport 2 Grand Total 1157

Within the States of Jersey, Zero-Hours contracts meet the organisation's need to provide a flexible pool of labour where additional work is required. Generally zero-hours contracts are used to cover ad-hoc short term absence and to provide additional employees to meet other unforeseen demands. For example within Education Sport and Culture zero-hours contracts are used to employ Supply Teachers, Lecturers, Teaching assistants, cleaning and caretaking staff to cover absence due to training courses, sick leave, or short term vacancies. Similarly within Health and Social Services zero-hours contracts are issued to Bank Nurses and Health Care Assistants. Within the Home Affairs Department Tutors, Administrative support staff and Translators are also employed on a Zero-hours contract basis.

The appropriate use of Zero-Hours contracts in both the private and public sectors are essential and have the benefit of offering flexible working opportunities that employees appreciate.

2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING TAX INFORMATION EXCHANGE:

Question

Does the Chief Minister welcome the resolution of the European Parliament to call on EU member States to take action on tax avoidance and evasion (which condemns tax competition; demands better company registrars and registers of trusts; demands full country-by-country reporting; demands more resources for tax authorities; condemns the use of tax havens and in particular highlights the need to generalise automatic information exchanges and to extend the scope of the Savings Taxation Directive in order to effectively end banking secrecy)?

Will he inform members what actions, if any, he will take to demonstrate his willingness to co- operate with such initiatives?

Answer

Jersey has long had an excellent reputation for complying with international standards and initiatives whether they be in respect of tax, financial regulation or anti-money laundering. That reputation is well founded on third party assessments by the OECD Global Forum of Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes, the International Monetary Fund and the Financial Stability Board which are seen by the G20 as the key bodies in promoting essential international cooperation in dealing with the current global issues.

I am determined to maintain and enhance that reputation and Members can be assured that, as and when the measures the European Parliament has referred to in its resolution become an international standard, our declared policy of compliance with such standards will be as actively implemented in the future as it has been to-date. Indeed independent assessments have shown that we compare favourably with the EU Member States and G20 countries in the application of international standards such as the recommendations of the Financial Action Task Force on anti- money laundering, and particularly those relating to the availability and accessibility of information on the beneficial ownership of companies and trusts to which the resolution refers indirectly.

There is a further dimension to this policy when it comes to the European Union and that is what can be described as our good neighbour approach'. This is most clearly reflected in the voluntary support we have given the EU Member States in their application of the EU Directive on the Taxation of Savings Income. In the regular discussions that my officials have with officials of the European Commission it is always made clear that we are committed to maintaining that support, in partnership with the other non-EU territories who are similarly involved, once the EU Member States reach agreement among themselves on the adoption of the proposed extended scope of the Directive to which the European Parliament's resolution refers.

We will continue to follow closely developments in the European Union including the response of the EU Member States to the European Parliament's resolution. In our discussions however with many of the Member States, and particularly those that we join with in the OECD Global Forum Peer Review Group of which we are a vice-chair, we have found their focus is not on tax havens as in the resolution but on uncooperative jurisdictions. This is evidenced by the fact that, within the French administration, the French Chair of the Peer Review Group is from the General Delegation

on non-cooperative countries and territories. In this context Jersey is seen by all members of the Group and beyond as a cooperative jurisdiction accepting fully the importance of the effective application world-wide of the standards set by the Global Forum. We are determined to protect our present high standing in this respect and we will do so by continuing to respond appropriately and positively to both existing and new international standards and initiatives.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING AN INVESTIGATION INTO EFFECTIVE TAX RATES:

Question

Will the Minister provide the results of his investigation into effective tax rates by quintile and inform members what these reveal about the progressive nature, or otherwise, of the Island's Income Tax system?

Answer

The Minister has provided below comprehensive data which illustrates the progressive nature of Jersey's Income Tax system. In summary:

• An analysis of individual (married and single) income levels and effective tax rates shows that the top 20% of earners pay 70% of all personal income tax.
• Those with income levels in the top 5% pay 34% of all personal tax, and the top 10% pay 47%.
• This analysis also shows that the bottom 40 % of earners pay less than 2% of all personal income tax , due to their tax exemptions.
• Furthermore, 17,000 individuals (married and single) (approximately a quarter of all income earners in Jersey) do not pay any income tax because of their personal exemptions.
• We already have an income tax system which results in those who earn more paying more, and those who have low incomes being protected by their exemptions.

The following tables give three alternative presentations of information by quintile:

Derived  from  2009/10  Household  Income  Distribution  Survey  and  individual  taxpaying population who completed a 2010 tax return

Derived from individual taxpaying population who completed a 2010 tax return

Individual means a single person or a married couple.

In addition to the 46,423 individuals who paid tax for the year of assessment 2010, approximately a further 17,051  individuals were  not  liable to tax  because their  total  income was  below their personal exemption threshold. 10,438 of these had completed a 2010 tax return.

All individuals (married and single) from Taxes Office data base. Year of assessment 2010.

Analysis of number of taxpayers

Liable to pay tax and completed a 2010 tax return  46,423 Not liable to pay tax and completed a 2010 tax return  10,438 Not liable to pay tax and not required to complete a 2010 tax return   6,613 Total 63,474

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING ZERO-HOURS' CONTRACTS:

Question

Will the Minister advise members what information, if any, he has on the extent to which zero- hours' contracts are used by the Island's employers by sector and explain why such contracts are used?

Will he inform Ministers how such contracts interact with the Income Support system and whether they cause particular problems for its administration?

Will he further state whether he considers the use of zero-hours' to be harmful to employees and, if so, what steps, if any, will he take to discourage their use?

Answer

My department  does not  hold specific  information on the prevalence of zero-hours contracts, however departmental inspectors will examine employment contracts and wage information during regular survey visits.

Zero-hours contracts are used to meet requirements for casual or irregular work where no particular number of hours or times of work are specified and there is no guarantee of work. They are useful when an employer needs a bank of 'casual workers' including recruitment agencies, bank nurses and supply teachers. In a zero-hours contract, there should be no obligation on the part of the employer to offer work and no obligation on the worker to accept. Zero-hours contracts may be used,  for  example, to  cover ad hoc shifts,  holidays, sickness and  seasonal upturns  in certain industries (particularly fulfilment, agriculture, hospitality and retail).

If an Income Support claimant is working sporadically under a zero-hours contract, their Income Support claim will be reviewed frequently to ensure that the benefit amount is adjusted in line with actual earnings.

Depending on the number of hours actually worked, an Income Support claimant may also be required to undertake job-seeking activities in order to find more regular employment.

There are no specific problems identified with the administration of an Income Support claimant with a zero-hours contracts per se. If an individual has earnings that fluctuate considerably from day to day or week to week, this will result in extra administration but this could be due to short- term temporary contracts, overtime, commission income and casual work or zero-hours contracts.

Genuine zero-hours contracts are necessary and appropriate, for both employers and employees.

The existence of a zero-hours contract does not, of itself, absolve the employer from any responsibilities under the Employment Law. If an employer/employee relationship is in fact created, the Employment Tribunal will consider this and apply the Employment law accordingly

Since March 2011, the Jersey Advisory and Conciliation Service (JACS) has included the following advice on its website discouraging employers from inappropriately using zero-hours contracts:

"We are concerned that some employers are using zero or variable hour contracts in circumstances that may not be appropriate and they may, therefore, be susceptible to successful Tribunal claims. Where we think problems do arise is when an employer uses zero-hours contracts for work that is regular because the employer believes it protects them from claims of unfair dismissal, the need to give notice or, in future, from the obligation to make redundancy payments. The question arises as to whether an employer/employee relationship is created but, in our view, it is probable that a relationship does exist where a mutuality of obligation arises i.e. there is an expectation by the employer that the individual will be available for work and by the individual that work will be offered. In such circumstances we believe that such employees would be entitled to the same employment rights as 'permanent contract' employees. While it is for the Employment Tribunal to determine the facts in any such case, we caution employers to be careful that they use zero or variable hours contracts appropriately."

2. Oral Questions

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the stimulation of the Jersey economy:

In the light of the news that the U.K. (United Kingdom) is officially in recession and that the leading cause is a 0.1 per cent drop in the finance sector, which accounts for 29 per cent of the U.K. economy, what evidence, if any, does the Minister have to suggest that Jersey is not in recession and what further measures, if any, will the Minister take to stimulate the Jersey economy?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

The leading cause of the fall in U.K. G.D.P. (Gross Domestic Product) is not the 0.1 per cent fall in the finance sector. Most economists see the sharp fall in the construction sector within the United Kingdom as being the main cause and even then, the figures published last week are the provisional figures. G.D.P. figures are notoriously almost always revised with accurate information later on. The Deputy is aware that a recession is normally defined as 2 consecutive quarterly falls in real G.D.P. or equivalent measure of overall economic activity. We do not have quarterly figures and what G.V.A. (Gross Value Added) data we do have relates to the activity in 2010. However, the latest business tendency survey does suggest that conditions are weakening in the economy in 2012, both in Jersey and elsewhere, with business activity falling at a greater rate but 8 of the 10 indicators remained essentially at the same level as the previous quarter. It is because business conditions remain difficult for local businesses and unemployment is rising that the Council of Ministers has responded by tasking the Minister for Economic Development to bring forward his economic growth plan and in the medium-term financial plan funding appropriately for that, bringing forward £27 million of social housing projects supporting the construction industry which then supports the rest of the economy. In addition, the spending of £40 million of 2011 carry- forwards this year to support the economy and we are also supporting and considering other measures of support to support the economy over the coming months.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Never mind quarters' recession. Does the Minister accept that the figures for the last 3 years, 2007- 2008 were a 3 per cent drop; 2009 a 6 per cent drop in G.V.A. and 2010, another 5 per cent drop? What estimate does he have for the drop in G.V.A. at constant values for 2011 and does he accept that we are in deep recession?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

No, I do not, and I refer the Deputy to the estimates compiled by the independent Economics Unit and overseen by the F.P.P. (Fiscal Policy Panel) which stated that the economic situation of Jersey was likely to be within a range but was probably around zero or slightly positive. I do not think that G.V.A. numbers in themselves are the actual barometers that we should be looking at. Certainly I agree with the Deputy that it is the issue of unemployment that is immediately the issue that the Council of Ministers is dealing with and we are responding proactively because we can, unlike some other governments, to key projects such as bringing forward social housing. I am not going to steal the thunder of the Minister for Economic Development's economic growth plan but certainly there have been discussions with Ministerial colleagues only yesterday about the latest draft of it and that is going to be bold and it is going to be positive in its outlook attempting to do the very best we can in what is clearly a very difficult economic situation.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

The Minister has said that the recession in the U.K. is driven by the construction industry and given that the construction industry has been driven by overheating of the housing demand, is the same factor not applicable in Jersey?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think the factors are quite different. I think it is important to understand the role that the construction sector has in the economy and what I would say to the Senator is that I believe that the economic situation of Jersey would have been far worse had we not engaged the Fiscal Stimulus Plan with the various initiatives in terms of capital infrastructure and housing projects. They made a real difference, not only to our infrastructure, but the third sector too and they kept people in work. That is one of the principal endeavours of the work that the Minister for Housing and myself have been doing in terms of stimulating order books for the construction sector which employs so many local people are very low and we are seeking to get good value for housing projects and we are seeking to get also projects such as the police station up and running, keeping people in work in an situation which would otherwise definitely lead to job losses.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Given that we were putting money into the construction industry, has that fiscal stimulus not, in fact, stimulated the immigration over the last 2 years?

[9:45]

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

On the contrary, I think that the Senator will be aware in her position as Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel Chairman that the rules surrounding fiscal stimulus were only "local employment" and I have said before on my feet in this Assembly that I myself went in the middle of the night to check on projects such as at Victoria Avenue to ensure that it was local labour together and I saw myself that that was the case. We delivered local labour for those projects and it was the right thing to do.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Does the Minister not accept that the fall in G.V.A. from 2008 to the present time, let alone this year's figures, means that Jersey will not even get back to the level it was at in 2008 probably for another 5 years because the recession was that deep and the impact on the economy? Does he not think that having put all our eggs in one basket over the previous years of concentrating on one industry at the expense of all others has cost this Island dearly?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Deputy and I often stand across this Assembly and disagree on what is optimistic about Jersey. Our industry, our engine of the economy, is financial services. The Deputy will be aware that last week I had the privilege of representing Jersey in Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi is one of those areas with the growing areas of the world, 13 per cent of our deposit base now coming from the Gulf Region, having added £1 billion worth of deposits on our Jersey deposit book over the last 12 months since we opened the Jersey Finance Office. We are concentrating our endeavours in the growing areas of the world where we enjoy a good reputation, where we can provide good quality financial services and we will continue to do so. I hope the Deputy believes, as I do, that we have a great future in providing quality financial services in the growing areas of the world and that is going to help make sure that we do diversify financial services quite apart from what we are doing in the digital economy.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I agree with the Minister that the finance industry is our main industry and we have got to keep it to save other jobs and to keep the Island where it is but does he not agree that the failure of previous governments was to concentrate on one industry at the expense of others, which means that the Island economy is vulnerable to shocks and we know that this recession was caused by financial services' abuse and that we are all suffering as a result of it.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , if I may say so, you have got a question on almost exactly the same point coming up later. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think the Deputy is simply wrong. The recession has been caused in the world by poor financial regulation in some countries and overspending by governments. That is why governments are, in the western world, in so much difficulty and while we have been chilled by these effects, and yes we have been affected by them, we have positioned Jersey to be in a much stronger position to seize opportunity and seize growth as other places cannot. The failure is not concentrating on financial services or overspending in this jurisdiction.

6. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

I will not ask the Minister for Treasury and Resources whether he thinks that this position is the ultimate point of capitalism as that would be too much fun. The question I do have is does the Minister for Treasury and Resources agree with the comments of the former Chief Minister in March 2009 which said that there is no Plan B if there is a structural downturn in the finance industry? If he does not, does he agree that diversification is the real key to sustainably stimulate the Jersey economy going forward?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I agree that absolutely we must diversify. We must diversify the financial services industry from a product base and also geographically. It is important that we do recognise that that ensures that all our eggs are not in one basket. The drivers of different elements of financial services are different. Some are delivered by legislation, some by other factors. That is a key part of diversification and I agree with the Deputy that we do need to step up further our attempts to diversify into other service elements of the economy and I believe that the digital economy and I.C.T. (Information and Communication Technology) endeavours could present an important area of our economy in the future which Gigabit Jersey - which Jersey Telecom with the Treasury support - is now driving and now supported by the Digital Jersey Group which is the replica of Jersey Finance. This will deliver jobs and we are positioning ourselves well and we are going to put more effort and resources to deliver those jobs for people in Jersey.

7. Deputy M. Tadier :

The Minister for Treasury and Resources almost fell into the trap of simply talking about diversification in the finance industry. Will he talk about whether real diversification is possible at all when we have one high network in this industry which is capable of the cuckoo-in-the-nest phenomenon which makes all other industries too expensive and not worthwhile investing in, as we have seen this very previous Government taking money away from tourism and giving it to finance which is more than capable of funding itself?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

It is important that we promote the Island and that is what we do and I would remind the Deputy that the allocations within Economic Development's budget - and it is almost as though the Minister for Economic Development should be answering these questions but I think we are absolutely united on our view - is that there has been a direction; he has maintained the support for the tourism and agricultural industry and, yes, we have been putting more in financial services and I do not agree with the pessimistic view that the Deputy has. I think that we have a great future in financial services, properly regulated, properly marketed, with all of the attributes of the way that we do things in Jersey perhaps unlike some other offshore centres which are receiving international attention and rightly so.

Deputy M. Tadier :

A point of order. Can I ask the Minister for Treasury and Resources not to attribute any views, pessimistic or otherwise, to me without a firm basis for doing so?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I do not think that is a point of order.

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Notwithstanding the Minister for Treasury and Resources' optimism, and indeed the cautious optimism of many of us, would he accept the view stated by the departing Guernsey Minister for Treasury and Resources that the economy has to radically reposition itself in Guernsey because it is on a false basis essentially?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , is this not a question that can be put later on? Question 10 is precisely on this issue. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can I ask another, Sir? [Laughter]

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , for you, anything. [Laughter] [Members: Oh!]

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Thank you, Sir. Would the Minister for Treasury and Resources consider whether or not the plans he is putting forward, particularly for construction, are sustainable plans? Is he, for example, convinced that proper apprenticeship schemes, proper training schemes, proper recruitment schemes, are in place as opposed to the almost hysterical and unconditional expansion of the industry which has occurred in recent years?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The construction industry is an important part of the economy. It employs hundreds of local Islanders and when order books, because the credit squeeze happens those people find it difficult to find work and large contractors go out of business. We need to avert that happening and there is an alignment of objectives. The Minister for Housing and some other Ministers have a backlog in maintenance which needed to be sorted out and we have used the downturn to get good value for money for housing projects, Pomme d'Or Farm, Miladi Farm, all the others are now building new social housing for the benefit of our Island community. Yes, he is right; there has been some necessary improvement in terms of apprenticeships that need to happen with the construction industry. He is Assistant Minister for Education. His Minister sits on the Skills Board and there has been good work done on apprenticeships and other things. There has been a lot done but there is more to do.

9. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Could I repeat my question? Does the Minister have an up-to-date estimate of the G.V.A. figures for 2011 and 2012 and, if so, will he give them?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I have not got an update of where G.V.A. is compared to the Economics Unit and I honestly do not think that it would be a good use of the Economics Unit to update those figures at this time. The Chief Minister has said very clearly that the major objective of the Council of Ministers is to tackle unemployment and frankly, working out theoretical numbers, which are notoriously revised when the actual numbers come in, I think is a waste of resources. We need to tackle urgently our growing unemployment. We need to create the conditions for economic growth. We need to put public spending in order to ensure that there are opportunities for growth creation that otherwise would not happen and we need to be thinking about the long-term growth strategy, which the Economic Adviser is working on. There are many debates in many parliaments about G.V.A. numbers. It is short-term politics. It makes good media fun but I think it is short-term and we need to be thinking about the medium and the long-term, not just having a "yah boo" in relation to numbers across this Assembly.

10. Deputy G.P. Southern :

May I have a point of clarification from the Minister since he went on to employment? Will he detail for Members the £67 million he quoted earlier and state how that £67 million is going towards creating how many jobs in the economy as of now?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I will give a consideration to answering that but, of course, the £40 million is the underspends from last year which departments are being allowed to spend, which itself is a stimulus to the economy, which means otherwise jobs and other procurement and people kept in work and the £27 million of the construction industry working with the Minister for Housing is going to create jobs. If he wants the number of it, I will try and do my best to estimate but it is quite clear that that scale of investment in the economy makes a difference.

The Deputy Bailiff :

All right. Can I just inform Members that we took 15 minutes on that question and it is not a debate; it is question time and so I am sorry that some Members will be disappointed that their questions were not answered but we must get on with question time.

2. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the total cost of the remediation at Beauport to deal with potato leachate:

Would the Minister advise the Assembly the total expenditure from 1992 to date on the remediation at Beauport to deal with potato leachate, provide an estimate of the ongoing costs and give details of the lessons learned? In asking the question of the Minister, can I say that this question, as far as I was concerned, should have gone to the old Agriculture and Fisheries Committee which would now be Planning and Environment but for some reason, it has been passed to T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services).

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The Constable of St. John is absolutely correct on that point. Responsibility for dealing with the leachates at Beauport has rested with a number of States departments over the years and precise costs are difficult to determine with accuracy, given the extended period over which remediation has been necessary. The total expenditure for dealing with the liquid leachate emanating from Beauport since 1992 is estimated at £300,000. Between 1992 and 2006, the leachate was transported via tankers from a holding tank located in Beauport Car Park to the Bellozanne Sewerage Treatment Works in order to receive treatment. The associated cost of this process was approximately £20,000 per year. In 2006, the odours associated with the leachate had significantly reduced, which enabled it to be connected directly to the foul sewer system without the risk of the leachate affecting nearby residents connected to the mains drainage system. Subsequently, costs were reduced to approximately £500 per year. With regards to lessons learned, waste management practices have evolved significantly over the last 20 years, making a recurrence of this type of incident highly unlikely. The disposal of potatoes in 1992 predated the current laws designed to protect the environment. The Water Pollution (Jersey) Law 2000 and the Waste Management (Jersey) Law 2005 administered by the Minister for Planning and Environment would absolutely prevent a reoccurrence of this type of disposal practice.

1. The Connétable of St. John :

Given the ongoing cost, although it be very limited, over the years has the T.T.S. Department and previously Public Services been refunded for the money that their department has spent from the department who were responsible for doing the damage?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Not to my knowledge but I will get back to the Constable on that.

2. The Connétable of St. John :

Therefore, if the department has not been refunded, will the Minister be taking action to get that funding transferred from the Planning and Environment Department?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

I am more than happy to look into that.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the provision of over-60s with a free faecal occult blood test kit' at 2-yearly intervals:

Would the Assistant Minister advise Members whether the Health and Social Services Department plans to follow the National Health Service's example and provide the over-60s with a free faecal occult blood test kit at 2-yearly intervals and if not, why not?

[10:00]

Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services -

rapporteur):

Health and Social Services Department does not have plans to introduce faecal occult blood testing otherwise known as F.O.B.T. We are instead introducing a bowel-screening programme in 2013 based on the use of a procedure known as FlexiSig. FlexiSig is a simple version of a colonoscopy where there is a direct view of the entire inside of the bowel. Clinical evidence shows that one-off FlexiSig screening could reduce colorectal cancers by 20 per cent whereas F.O.B.T. testing at 2- yearly intervals may only reduce the result by 4 to 8 per cent in reduction of colorectal cancers.

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

But surely does the Assistant Minister not agree that prevention is better than cure and by adopting a prevention strategy, moving something into the primary care sector, the hospital consultant concerned with treating bowel cancer is less likely to have a long waiting list of patients anxiously waiting to receive his urgent attention?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Of course it is always proper to avoid people becoming ill in any form and any procedure that does that is seen as the right way to go. I think Members must understand that the faecal occult blood testing is looking for microscopic elements of blood within the faeces of the person being tested. However, blood in faeces is not necessarily of itself an indicator of cancer. There are many other causes. Even as simple as taking too many aspirin can produce that same result. So it unfortunately produces quite a large range of false indicators which creates a lot of stress as well for the people having to go through other procedures which end up with them having to go in at the moment for colonoscopies in any case.

2. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

I am sorry if I missed it. Obviously, people must come before cost, but could the Assistant Minister give any indication of what the costs involved would be?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

For the average group, that is round the age of 60, the cost would zero because they will be targeted and invited in by the hospital for testing on the FlexiSig programme. Other people who wish to have a test done .. there will be a charge for people who are voluntarily coming in just to see if they can be checked outside the target age range.

3. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour :

Could I ask the Assistant Minister whether there will be any consideration for people that have diseases such as ulcerative colitis or Crohn's disease because they have a higher likely chance of cancer than normal?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

The Deputy is absolutely correct. They are a higher risk group and they would be covered by the new FlexiSig procedures.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

The Assistant Minister spoke about the various success rates of the 2 programmes, one at 60 per cent, one at 48, but will the Assistant Minister comment on the reach of both programmes and whether a blood test as proposed by the Senator is more likely to reach more people than those who perhaps have to come in for scans where they may not wish or otherwise be disposed to come into the hospital?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I do not see there is going to be an issue with the reach because the same people will be targeted. The people who are currently targeted by the F.O.B.T. testing are the same people who will be targeted by the FlexiSig testing.

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Surely the Assistant Minister understands that having sigmoidoscopy or colonoscopy or C.T. (Computed Tomographic) colonography, anybody having those would far prefer the choice of performing a painless test in their own bathroom which does not involve a 3-day clean prep diet. Does the Assistant Minister not understand this and agree?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I certainly do understand it. I think unfortunately the Senator does not recognise the fact that a positive test done in a bathroom will result in a colonoscopy or a FlexiSig procedure. That is what will happen, whether, in fact, it is an indicator of cancer or not, whether they are taking too many aspirin-type potentially inflammatory drugs will involve them having a colonoscopy in the hospital if it comes as a positive out of an F.O.B.T. testing.

6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Yes, but that would be controlled, in fact, by the G.P. (General Practitioner), which is the way that primary care should work. Surely that is the whole idea. Move this sort of testing out into primary care, co-ordinated by the G.P.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I appreciate the Senator's comments and certainly there is a great move within Health and Social Services at the moment to look at primary care delivering far more services reducing the pressures on the hospital but what we really want to be doing is increasing the preventative options of the FlexiSig, which will identify much earlier problems than the current F.O.B.T. testing will do.

4. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding organ donation:

Will the Assistant Minister outline whether information and application forms regarding organ donation are readily available at the General Hospital and if not, where can this information be obtained and will she consider a move to make the organ donation scheme in Jersey opt-out rather than opt-in?

Deputy  J.A.  Martin  of  St.  Helier  (Assistant  Minister  for  Health  and  Social  Services -

rapporteur):

Sorry, there are 4 so we have got 2 each and I thank the Deputy for his question. Yes, unfortunately at the moment, Jersey does not have an equivalent database to the U.K. and the N.H.S. (National Health System) and the hospital. The clinicians work on a one-to-one with families to ask whether they give permission and also do they know the patient's wishes. This is very similar to the scheme in the U.K. whereby even if people carry a donation card - that they are willing to be a donor - often they may not have them with them at the time. It is only whether they have spoken to their family and their wishes are known and, if they are not, sometimes the family override even and it may be found out later that the person did have a donor card. On the second part, my personal is yes, I think an opt-out scheme really needs a good debate. It is not in Health's plans for 2012 but with all the different things coming in like the population card and registration card and things like that, where there is a card where there needs to be questions asked we could include that, but it needs to be a debate because apparently you know it is very emotive for some people.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

Just a supplementary on the first part. The reason I have raised this question is because a constituent of mine said he has considerable difficulty in finding information and forms at the General Hospital. This may well be an isolated incident but I would like the Assistant Minister perhaps to take a personal look at that, a cursory look, just to make sure information is readily available. I think that is all I have got to ask for the moment. I just thank the Assistant Minister for her answer.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am not sure what the Deputy I think the Deputy may be alluding to the The Deputy Bailiff :

The question is asking is if you would take a personal interest in having a look. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, I take a personal interest. Is he asking I have already said we do not have an actual registration form so if he is asking me where does the person register, he would probably just need to let the family know and I think with us in I think it may be just an English thing, we do not talk about death and we do not talk about what is going to happen after and that is another thing that we should be encouraging.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Could I reiterate the question?

The Deputy Bailiff :

The Deputy can think about his final supplementary in due course. Deputy Le Hérissier?

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Assistant Minister inform the House, given the parlous state of the system as outlined by her, is the department prepared to undertake a review into this situation and put some proper alternatives in front of the public?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I think I have already said we will need a debate - an in principle debate - some time on whether we do go for opt-out. I have said it is emotive and I have been told it is on a religious basis but it works well in Spain and to me it is a very highly Roman Catholic country, so you know; but if we go down this route, firstly we have the in principle debate and then we decide which and how we get people on the register, and I do not think that would be too hard with all the different forms and different cards we already carry - driving licence and the population card. So it can be done.

3. The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

Would the Assistant Minister take it from me that there are many of us as religious leaders who would love to see an opt-out system on the very sensible ground of love thy neighbour and when I do not need my kidneys any more, I am not going to need them in Heaven either, somebody else is very welcome to them. Would she accept that from me?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I accept anything from the Dean. He knows that [Laughter] and I thank him for his donation.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

I think from the clarification that the Assistant Minister has given, it is slightly concerning to know that we are very far from an opt-out because we have not even got a functioning opt-in system yet. So will the Assistant Minister give urgent attention to making sure that both information about organ donation and perhaps application forms should be readily available, if not promoted, at the General Hospital and other health outlets throughout the Island?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, I will look into this and see where we are.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chief Minister regarding health and criminal checks as an integral part of an immigration policy:

Would the Minister state whether there is any legal issue in Protocol 3 or other relevant legislation which prevents health and criminal checks being carried out which are customarily seen as an integral part of an immigration policy?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

I would like to ask my Assistant Minister with responsibility for the Migration Advisory Group to answer this.

Senator P.F. Routier (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):

Performing health or criminal background checks which resulted in nationals of the European economic area being prevented from entering and remaining in Jersey would generally be incompatible with the provisions of the Immigration Act 1971 and Jersey's Protocol 3 obligations. Nevertheless, alongside the introduction of the new Control of Housing and Work Law, we are also considering additional controls on nationals of the European economic area, for example, around the 5-year qualifying rule. Also how migrants gain access to some public services and the use of criminal record checks when it comes to the ability to work. If the Deputy would like to assist us in this urgent work, we will report our findings to all Members as soon as we have them.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Assistant Minister not concede that the current so-called substitute for an immigration policy has been a catastrophic failure over the last 10 years and would he not accept that a so-called immigration policy which sets up a system of first and second-class treatment once people have arrived is not the way to go? Proper control at the point of entry is the way to go. Would he accept that?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I think Members recognise that our existing legislation needs quite a considerable overhaul and we have decided to do that. The existing legislation does have its flaws, there is no doubt about that, and that is why we have brought forward the new Control of Housing and Work legislation which is a lot stronger than the current  legislation. It does allow us to record people's names and addresses and to keep knowledge of where they are working and where they are living. You will have to remind me on the second part of the question, I do apologise.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would he accept that the policy has been a catastrophic failure? That was the first part. Senator P.F. Routier:

No, I do not, certainly not.

2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

Without commenting on the advisability of health checks or not, could the Assistant Minister note, speaking from personal experience, when I worked in an E.U. (European Union) Member State on a work permit, I was required to have a health check so the question is why does it work one way but not the other?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Yes, certainly if you are on a work permit that is possible to have a health check. The original question which was laid, I did speak to the Deputy about the difference between migration and immigration because the immigration policy that we currently have, which is controlled by the Minister for Home Affairs, does give discretion for an Immigration Officer to ask for a health check or a criminal record check so that already exists in the case of those work permits which are already issued.

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The point is if somebody going from here working in the European Union is treated one way, can we not apply that principle coming back into the Island?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I would need to seek advice from the Solicitor General on that. I would certainly find out and come back to the Deputy .

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Assistant Minister mentioned about carrying out police checks on people coming into the Island. As Members may be aware from an answer given by the Minister for Home Affairs in the last sitting, on a question I asked about police checks, currently there is no way that we can conduct police checks on European Union citizens or people from Eastern Europe. One of the criticisms I have of that is the fact that local residents applying for work are being told by their employers they must get a police check and yet people coming in from outside the Island are not subject to the same check. They are getting the jobs and our people are not. How are you going to do those police checks if there is no mechanism?

[10:15]

Senator P.F. Routier:

I think the Deputy is mixing up 2 issues here with regard to an employer who has asked for a police check, which is quite within their rights to do that, every employer can seek a police check for any potential employee. What the legislation is focused on is presently the work permit system does allow the discretion of the Immigration Officer to seek a criminal records check but, as identified in the answer which was given previously by the Minister for Home Affairs, the people within the E.U. economic area that is not the case. That does not apply at the present time. It is down to each employer if they wish to have a criminal record check, they can do that.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does that mean that the Customs Officers are going to be stopping everyone when they come into the Island and if they have not got their letter showing they have not got a criminal record, they will be refused entry?

Senator P.F. Routier:

That will be a matter for the Immigration Officer to make any decisions that they wish.

6. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :

The Assistant Minister keeps on referring to the names and address register as a form of control. Does he still not accept it offers no control whatsoever? It is, as the name suggests, a names and address register that anyone and everyone can put their names to.

Senator P.F. Routier:

The Deputy makes a fair point that the names and address register on its own is not a control mechanism. It is working in conjunction with the Control of Housing and Work legislation where the control comes about. The information which the names and address register provides and with all the other  information which is collated from the manpower returns, that is where when a decision has had to be made by an applicant to come into the Island or to set up a business, that is when the control is put in place with all the information that will now be available which has not been available in the past.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I have just come back from the U.K. I spent 10 days there and the moan is and it is what I would say to our Chief Minister, and say again, a plea. The U.K. is who we are attached to through the E.U., are the softest touch in Europe and they have been for years and everybody is fed up with it. I think when we negotiated our deal, at the time it was good but we have attached our horse to this cart and it is not working. We need to renegotiate because, as Deputy Le Fondré says, it does not work both ways. The U.K. is a soft touch and by that makes us a soft touch. Does the Assistant Minister not agree or can he please look into this?

Senator P.F. Routier:

Certainly, the Deputy raises a fair point about the soft touch culture which may be seen to be an issue in the United Kingdom. We also in Jersey, as I said in my initial answer, need to look at the access to services within our Island because people come to the Island for varying economic reasons. It may be because we have a good education system. It may be because we have a good health system and they do come and use those services. We may need to toughen up on our access to those services and our benefit system. That is part of the work. It is separate from the work that is happening with the new Control of Work and Housing legislation but, as a separate piece of work, we need to seriously look at the access to our services. I think that answers the question.

8. Deputy M. Tadier :

I am concerned that the Assistant Minister has given inadvertently incorrect information when he says any employer can get a criminal background check. Does he not mean that he can make it conditional on a job offer but if an potential employee does not want to get a background check for whatever reason that the employer, unless it is for certain categories of job, cannot insist on that taking place?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I think the Deputy has a fair point.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

If we are talking about an even playing field for local workers versus those who may come from the U.K., with regard to criminal background checks, there is no requirement in Jersey for the police and no ability for them to be able to give a résumé of criminal acts including spent items, so spent items for Jersey people would appear on the background check which the employer has no business asking for whereas somebody in the U.K. could benefit from that not being on their background check. So will the Minister undertake to look into that with data protection because I know it has been raised as an issue in the past?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I think that question would be far better answered by the Minister for Home Affairs than myself but certainly I will discuss it with him and see where it takes us.

10. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

The Assistant Minister stated earlier on that his department was considering additional controls for E.U. citizens. How confident is he that these controls will comply with Protocol 3 when health and criminal checks do not?

Senator P.F. Routier:

We will obviously look at all the issues with regard to whether things are feasible or not but I think, from the general mood, there is a need to look at what other controls we can put in place. Whether it revolves around really access to services in Jersey and access to benefits is why people come to the Island that may, in combination with our Control and Housing Work legislation, be the way that we address the issue.

11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

It is partly a repeat of our last session. Could the Assistant Minister confirm whether or not the work and residential permit system operated by Guernsey is compatible with Protocol 3? Has he managed to research that issue?

Senator P.F. Routier:

I have not but I know it has been challenged in the European Court a few times over recent years but I cannot recall the outcome of that, but I know it has been challenged.

6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding referrals by ante-natal services staff to third sector agencies or other agencies for support and guidance:

Can the Assistant Minister explain whether as part of antenatal services offered by her department, teenage mums and/or those with drug/alcohol problems, are automatically referred either to third sector agencies or other agencies for support and guidance and if not, why not?

Deputy J.A. Martin (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):

Yes, any women accessing maternity service who require additional support are always offered a referral to the most appropriate agency. This may be either in Health and Social Services or in the third sector. This will be offered on an individual basis and some women will choose to take up the offer and some women will not. The question itself does not determine between teenage mothers and/or on drugs and alcohol problems which are 2 totally different categories. Some teenage mothers - I mean those of 17, 18 or 19 - will not be able to cope on their own. Some will be in very good relationships and have good support from their extended family.

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

In answer to my question, the Assistant Minister referred to individuals who require additional support. The whole reasoning behind my question is that I feel that there are vulnerable people slipping through the net because there is no one single agency picking them up and no one single agency taking responsibility, and it seemed to me that all pregnant mums have to go through antenatal services and to me it seems that this was the best agency to deal with those mums. So I do not accept that all those who require additional support are getting it and, with the best will in the world, I do not understand how anyone could think that a teenage mum I accept that some teenage mums might have supportive families behind them but with the best will in the world we all know that the best outcomes are achieved by positive intervention at the time of birth and I think it is very important that Health and Social Services pick up on this. I have been told that Health and Social Services are intending to do this in 2014 so my question to you is why cannot this be brought forward to now?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, hopefully the Deputy and everyone else who is attending the White Paper presentation this afternoon at lunchtime will hear this and the Deputy has been told I am sure it is going to be early intervention and it will be before birth. Again, it will be through Health but it will be involving .. we need more input from health visitors, more input from G.P.s, we are working with the J.C.P.C. (Jersey Child Protection Committee) to put this in train but again I may differ to the Deputy 's view. I think that there are some very capable teenage mums out there and some 30 year-old mums who are not as capable. It is everyone who needs the every individual case and I am sorry if the Deputy feels that people are slipping through the net. I work very closely with Brighter Futures and they go out to some of these mums and it takes about 6 or 7 sessions and not always do they get them into the unit. The help, I think, is there and we monitor it and obviously if there is any concern over child protection that then becomes a totally different issue and we try not to get to that point.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Would the Assistant Minister comment on I think the underlying premise of this question which deals with to what extent should the State get involved in individuals' lives, so can the Assistant Minister comment perhaps on the policy of the department about the difficulties of intervening in the private lives of individuals and in which cases it is appropriate to do that?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Personally, I have no problem in intervening in anybody's life if they need the help or the department or the G.P. or whoever the professional is thinks they need the help. As I say, you can point people in the right direction, you can help as long as they need it and you can give them all the support. I do not have a problem with doing that but I do not agree, as referred to in even the question, all teenage mothers would need to be referred to an outside agency. I do not agree with that.

3. The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Is the department confident that they are able to identify all those in need who would benefit from support and guidance?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

As I think I said in an earlier question, people may not be picked up – teenage or 20, 21, people having their first child at 30 or older may not be picked up antenatally. It is afterwards some suffer with post-natal depression so it is all people that come into contact with these people - i.e. as I said, midwives, health visitors - we need to work and we will be introducing this programme, early identification and directing people to the right help whatever age and whatever their problem is.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

But is this something that the Minister keeps talking about this is something being done by the department. Surely this is something that comes under primary care and should be dealt with at the primary care level, co-ordinated by the G.P.?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I did say that if the Senator obviously may have missed me, but I said we do need to really work. Some people who are working only come to antenatal at the hospital for scans. They choose because they go to their G.P. for the rest of their check-ups. Now, we need to get all the G.P.s on board, which we are working with, and the G.P. has probably known that patient since they were a baby so if anyone can identify that there could be a problem they are the ones to do it and I do not have a problem with that. We are just working towards that.

5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

I think with the best will in the world, a professional working in the Antenatal Department would have to have their head stuck in the sand in dealing with some individuals who present themselves who very obviously require some outside assistance. The Assistant Minister's own department has recognised the value of positive intervention and intends introducing this wide scale in 2014. What I want to know is will the Assistant Minister urge her department to introduce this as soon as possible and include it in the medium-term financial plan for next year?

[10:30]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, the medium-term financial plan covers the next 3 years and it is in the plan. It is about recruiting, making sure we get the right systems out there and that some are done in small places, some are done in very large places but with outlying communities. I want, and I know the Deputy wants, the best scheme for early intervention that will work in Jersey. So I will try and see if we can bring this forward and do it properly because we do not want another thing that is not right for the Island, but as the Deputy says, we do not want to miss anybody.

7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the provision by the new contractor of buses that are suitable for the Island's narrow roads:

With the present buses often driving over the centre white line, will the Minister be requiring any new bus contractor to comply with local legislation and provide buses that are suitable for the relatively narrow roads that exist in Jersey?

Deputy K.C. Lewis (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services): I am pleased to confirm that my officers have been working closely with the preferred bidder for the 2013 bus-operating contract and, within the last 2 weeks, have met with potential vehicle suppliers. At least one vehicle design has been identified, which provides a reasonable passenger capacity without requiring exemption from the Jersey rigid vehicle size limits.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Supplementary?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Merely, to thank the Minister for that helpful reply.

1. Deputy M. Tadier :

The question relates to the white lines. It seems to me that anyone who has driven along the inner road, especially coming from town to west, will know that it is not simply buses that cannot get past without going over the white lines. Any cars have to constantly go over the white line in order to pass the traffic. Can I ask the Minister, whether it is a bus or whether it is a car, is there any liability for the department or for the authority, which may be the Parish, in ensuring that cars do not park in such a way where all the traffic is likely to have to cross the white line and make themselves liable in terms of an accident?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Yes, anyone crossing the white line would be liable but this is something we are working on to streamline traffic.

The Deputy Bailiff :

The question for the Minister was whether the department would be liable? Deputy K.C. Lewis :

Not in my opinion.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

What steps is the Minister taking to specifically deal with the question on the inner road where there is not enough room where people are parking? What steps will the Minister take to resolve that issue?

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

We are looking, again, at parking on the inner road and possibly moving the central line over and possibly moving the parking spaces.

8. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chairman of Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding lessons to be learnt from the higher electoral turnout in the recent Guernsey elections:

What lessons for Jersey, if any, can be learnt from the higher electoral turnout in the recent Guernsey elections where electors vote for a single class of States Member?

Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):

This is a matter for the Electoral Commission to consider as part of its work. It would not be appropriate for me to make assumptions at this stage as to how electing a single class of member might impact upon voter turnout. Percentage turnout should always be considered in the context of the number and proportion of people who are eligible to vote and who have registered to vote. The Electoral Commission will no doubt wish to examine these areas and to make comparisons between Jersey and Guernsey and any other jurisdictions that are considered to be relevant when it begins its work.