States Meeting Transcript - 18th June 2013

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 18th JUNE 2013

CONNÉTABLE OF ST. CLEMENT - APPRECIATION.......................................8

1. Senator P.F. Routier:.....................................................................8 Connétable L Norman of St. Clement:.........................................................8 The Bailiff :......................................................................................8

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................8

2. The Bailiff :................................................................................8

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

3. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE PROPOSED ELECTRICITY SUB-STATION AT WESTMOUNT: .........................................................................8
   2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING EMISSIONS FROM COMPRESSED AIR POWERED VEHICLES:........................................14
   3. SENATOR S.C. FERGUSON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING SUICIDE RATES:.........................................14
   4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE RE-INTRODUCTION OF HOSPITAL PRESCRIPTION CHARGES:..........................................................15
   5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE HIGH COST OF ACCESSING PRIMARY HEALTH CARE THROUGH G.P.s:..............................................................16
   6. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE ARREST OF MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC FOR PLANNING INFRACTIONS: .......................................................................17
   7. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING INVESTIGATIONS INTO HISTORIC ABUSE:.......................18
   8. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE RE-REGISTRATION OF LODGING HOUSES: .................18
   9. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE IMPACT OF THE REFERENDUM ON ST. HELIER VOTERS: 20

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................20

1. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding complaints received from members of the public alleging maladministration:20

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment):.........20

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................21
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................21

3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................21

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the emissions from compressed air vehicles:.................................21 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................21

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................22
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................22
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................22
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................23

5. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................23
6. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................23
7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................23

3. The Connétable of St. Helier of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the listing of St. Helier 's parks: ............................................................24 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................24

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................24
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................24

4. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the rationale and criteria for sending Jersey delegations to U.K. party political conferences: .............25 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................25

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................25
2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................25
3. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................26
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................26

5. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................26

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding the Assistant Minister with responsibility for External Affairs reading confidential documents in public:...........27 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................27

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................27
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................27
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................27
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................28
6. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................28
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................28
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................28
10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................29

6. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the development of a language immersion school in Jersey:..................29 Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):............29

1. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................30
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
4. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................31
5. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................31

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Security regarding the evaluation of new management positions:..............................................31

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):.................31

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................31
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
4. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................32
5. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen:..........................................................32
6. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................33
7. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:......................................................33

7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................34
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................34
9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34

8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence of the Chief Minister regarding the terms of reference for the Dame Heather Steel investigation into the Korris Review:............34 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................35

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................35
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................35
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................35
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................35
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................36

9. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chief Minister regarding aggressive tax planning:............36 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................36

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................37
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................38
4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................38
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................39
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................39
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................40

10. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the imposition of Goods and Services Tax on aircraft fuel:.................................40 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................40

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................40
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................41
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................41
4. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................41
5. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................41
6. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................42
7. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................42
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................42
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................42

11. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the exact terms of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (O.E. C.D ) agreement on tax information exchange: ..................................................................43 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................43
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................44
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................44
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................45
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................45

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Attorney General regarding the accountability of the Chief Officer and Deputy Chief Officer of the States of Jersey Police:........................46 Mr. H. Sharp Q.C., H.M. Solicitor General:..................................................46

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................46
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................46

13. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Chief Minister regarding grounds for instant dismissal for gross misconduct for public sector employees: .........................................47 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................47

1. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:..................................................47
2. Deputy T.A. Vallois:................................................................47
3. Deputy T.A. Vallois:................................................................47
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................48

14. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chief Minister regarding an independent inquiry into allegations that the Assistant Minister for External Relations obtained and read in public confidential documents associated with the suspension of the Dean:....................48 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................48

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................48
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................48
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................49
4. Deputy T.A. Vallois:................................................................49
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................49
6. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................49
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................50

15. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Solicitor General regarding the Court's powers to ensure that full indemnities awarded to members of the public at the conclusion of a court case are enforced: ...............................................................................50 The Solicitor General:........................................................................50

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................51
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................51
3. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..........................................................52

16. Deputy M. Tadier of the Chief Minister regarding action undertaken to assess whether

Jersey's limited involvement in Associated British Foods avoidance of tax via

subsidiaries based in the Island constituted aggressive tax avoidance': ................52 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................52

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................52
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................53

17. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the delegation of powers to officers to enter into planning obligation agreements which require land transactions and monies to be paid: ........................................53 Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ........................53

1. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................54
2. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................54

18. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding an investigation into the use of zero hours contracts across the Island: ..................................................54 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................54

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................54
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................55
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................55
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................55
5. Deputy T.A. Vallois:................................................................55

6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................56

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture...................................................................................56

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................56 The Deputy of St. John (Minister for Education, Sport and Culture): .........................56

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................56
   2. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................57

5.2.1 Deputy S. Power:.......................................................................57

3. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement : ........................................................57
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................57
5. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................58

5.5.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................58

6. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................58
7. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................58
8. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................59

5.8.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................59

9. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................59

5.9.1 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................59

10. Connétable S.W. Rennard of St. Saviour : ..............................................59
11. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................60

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................60
2. The Deputy of St. Ouen:.............................................................60

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Health and Social Services 61

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................61 The Deputy of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................61

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................61
   2. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................61

6.2.1 The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................62

3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................62
4. Deputy J.P.G. Baker of St. Helier : ......................................................62

6.4.1 Deputy J.P.G. Baker:...................................................................62

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................63

6.5.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................63

6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................63

6.6.1 Deputy T.M. Pitman:...................................................................63

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................64

6.7.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................64

8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................64

6.8.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................64

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................65

7. The Minister for Social Security will make a statement regarding proposals for the long term care scheme...................................................................65

7.1 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ........................65

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................66
2. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................66
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................66
4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................67

5. The Deputy of St. Peter : ................................................................67
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................67
7. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................68
8. Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................68
9. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................68
10. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................69

8. The Chief Minister will make a statement regarding discussions with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom........................................................69

8.1 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................69

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................71
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................71
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................71
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................72
5. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................72
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................72

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................73 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................73 PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................74

9. Draft Wills and Successions (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Law 201- (P.38/2013)......74

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):........................74

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................75
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................79
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................80
4. Senator B.I. Le Marquand:..............................................................80
5. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................81

2. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................83
3. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................83

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................83
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................84
3. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................84

10. Approval of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of Jersey and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland relating to Co-Operation and Tax matters (P.55/2013)........85

10.1 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................85

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................85
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................86
3. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................86

11. Draft Taxation (Implementation) (Disclosure Facility) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.56/2013)...............................................................................87

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):................................................88 Senator S.C. Ferguson (Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):......................88
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................88

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................88

12. The Connétable of St. Helier (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):......88

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................89

2. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................89
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................89
4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................89

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................89

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer.

[09:30]

CONNÉTABLE OF ST. CLEMENT - APPRECIATION

1. Senator P.F. Routier:

If I may just comment on the fact that today is a remarkable day because Connétable Norman has now been included in the roll call in this Assembly for the last 30 years. [Approbation] His fantastic record of service is that he was first elected to the States on 17th June 1983 as a Deputy of St. Clement. He was re-elected as Deputy for that Parish in 1987, 1990 and 1993. He was then elected as a Senator in 1996 and re-elected on 12th December 2002. He was then elected as Connétable of St. Clement on 8th December 2008 and again in 2011. I hope Members will join me in congratulating the Connétable and thanking him for his service to his Parish, Island and this Assembly during his 30 years of service. [Approbation]

Connétable L Norman of St. Clement :

I am not usually lost for words but I would like to thank Senator Routier for his very kind words and the appreciation of the Assembly shown in the traditional manner. Clearly, I must have done something extremely bad in a previous life. [Laughter]

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Connétable .

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

2. The Bailiff :

May I welcome His Excellency, particularly on this occasion as it comes shortly after the service to celebrate 60 years since Her Majesty's Coronation. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions

3.1. DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE PROPOSED ELECTRICITY SUB-STATION AT WESTMOUNT:

Question

Will the Minister provide details (by use of a map if necessary) of what part of St Helier the proposed electricity sub-station at Westmount is intended to service and, in view of his comment in the States on 4th June 2013 that "there are going to be problems in the future in relation to the J.E.C.'s ability to deliver supply to homes" in St. Helier if the scheme does not go ahead, would he set out the likely timescale for any such disruption?

Would the Minister also give a list (using a map if necessary) of the other potential sites considered for the substation and explain, in each case, why the site was ruled out?

Answer

The Minister considers that the need to provide a reliable power supply to homes and businesses is a core requirement for the JEC and he is seeking a swift resolution to avoid any disruption to power supplies.

The Minister is advised that this is an urgent issue that needs to be resolved without delay and has sought to expedite the preferred solution with the Parish, as landowner, and the JEC.

The preferred option and other sites considered, together with a commentary provided by the JEC in respect of the pressure on capacity, are set out below.

St Helier West Primary Substation

The electricity network in the central and western part of St Helier is presently near full capacity and demand is growing. Several cable circuits and related equipment between Queens Road and Esplanade were installed over 50 years ago and are becoming aged as well as stressed' due to the high electricity loadings. This could lead to a reduced asset life as well as increased risk of disruption of supplies to existing customers.

There is limited backup infrastructure available to maintain supplies in the event of an electrical fault' situation especially if an event occurred during the winter months. A sustained fault at either Queens  Road  Primary  or  Esplanade  Primary  would  mean  that  Jersey  Electricity  could  have difficulty supplying customers for up to 1,250 peak hours over the 6 winter months until the fault was repaired. A major fault could easily take 6 months to repair, requiring procurement of assets from specialist manufacturers' off-island.

Such an event would therefore lead to repeated supply (rota) disconnections and re-connections during the afternoon and evening when the electricity network loads are at their highest (and when the electricity is most needed). Customers affected could include domestic customers as well as existing businesses including those located in the commercial district of St Helier.

Two thirds of St Helier could be at risk depending on the nature and timing of the fault (darker area in Figure 1 below). In addition services to some customers in adjacent Parishes could also be similarly affected as the network topography is not delineated by Parish.

Figure 1 – Potential Area at Risk

Trinity

St Lawrence

Queens' Rd

St Saviour

6,000 supplies

7,000 supplies Esplanade

La

6,300 supplies Collette St Clement 9

Area of increased risk within St Helier Parish

An additional consequence of this is that Jersey Electricity is unable to provide new supplies to new developments, including the hospital development, housing schemes as well as new supplies to businesses and the commercial district of St Helier.

Jersey Electricity has been looking for a suitable site for a substation for several years. Parish and States officials have been extensively involved in this process. In order to securely reinforce the network  in  this  part  of  St  Helier, the  substation needs  to  be  physically  located  between  the Esplanade Primary and the Queens Road Primary. The location is critical as it must be sited close to the load to offer secure integration to the existing Jersey Electricity network with minimal cable lengths and maximum cable separation that is necessary for resilient connections. The network design showing cabling, is shown diagrammatically in Figure 2 below.

Figure 2 – Diagrammatic Representation of the 11Kv Network

Queens Road Primary

Kensington Place

Marina Court

West Park

Esplanade Primary

Bay View Esplanade

Waterfront

Existing 11kV Network Network showing new St Helier West

The new proposed St Helier West Primary substation will take load from the Esplanade Primary and from Queens Road Primary relieving those substations of their overload operation. It will also offer additional capacity for existing and new customers in the north, west and central St Helier.

Several options for the new substation have been extensively explored. These are shown in Figure 3 and described in detail below.

Figure 3 – Site Options Considered

The options considered were:-

1. Part buried in the crescent of Peoples Park - former fountain
2. In the car park adjacent to the Inn on the Park site
3. In the old disused quarry opposite Lower Park
4. As a direct replacement for Fergusson's Folly
5. In Victoria Park
6. In the Overdale Grounds Val Andre

The preferred site, taking into account the various trade-offs, is option C. This site was chosen after discussion with both Planning and Parish Officers for four primary reasons:

1. It was felt that the substation was easier to conceal and landscape than would be the case if sited in the open parkland alternatives
2. Whilst more expensive for Jersey Electricity in termsof site preparation and despite some technical  compromise,  the  site  was  considered  acceptable  given  the  minimal  loss  of amenity, ease of concealment and ease of access for installation and for emergency repair
3. The site is remote from residential areas, minimising any safety risk or noise to neighbours
4. From a Parish perspective, they would no longer be responsible for any future contingent liability risk (and cost) associated with an old and potentially unstable quarry

Details for each option are listed as follows.

1. Part buried in the crescent of Peoples Park (former fountain location)

This location has been discussed with the Parish who welcomed the installation if it included Public Toilets and offered a viewing platform. These facilities could be included in the design.

Proposed St Helier West Primary Substation at People's Park

This is Jersey Electricity's preferred location. It is good secure location to connect into the existing 11kV circuits and 90kV circuits. This proposal was not supported by planning officers.

2. In the car park adjacent to the Inn on the Park

The primary substation could be located in the car park. It could be walled for security as required.

Its location is good for secure connection to the existing 11kV and 90kV cables. This proposal was supported by Planning Officers. Significant objections may emerge from apartment owners who would be within a few metres of the site, and therefore this site has not been progressed.

3. In the old disused quarry opposite Lower Park

This location was proposed by the Parish. The substation would be mostly concealed but the 11kV cable installation would still be challenging as 6 circuits would need to run along the inner road past West Park. However this is deemed achievable. Planning Officers agree with this proposal subject to design criteria.

Disused quarry - Existing Site

Substation cut into disused quarry opposite Lower Park - Proposed

4. As a direct replacement for Fergusson's Folly

The building shell is not quite large enough to accommodate the equipment but the style could be very closely followed if required and certain plant installed underground (under St Aubins Inner Road). The 11kV cable installation would be very difficult as 6 circuits would need to run along the inner road past West Park. If part of the installation was installed under the road, the road would likely have to be closed for about 18 months pending the build process leading to significant traffic problems. This proposal was not supported by Planning Officers.

5. In Victoria Park

This location is good for connection to existing 11kV and 90kV circuits, but it was not supported by Planning Officers due to the sensitivity of the location.

6. In Overdale Grounds Val Andre

This location was proposed by Property Holdings as an alternative site to those previously considered. It is a very difficult (near impossible) location to install large plant and equipment and very difficult to resiliently connect to existing 11kV and 90kV circuits.

2. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF TO THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING EMISSIONS FROM COMPRESSED AIR POWERED VEHICLES:

Question

Following the Minister's recent statement suggesting that compressed air powered cars are environmentally superior to petrol powered ones has the Minister researched the overall energy requirements of using these vehicles compared to other vehicles such as modern diesel cars and is he satisfied in promoting the use of compressed air vehicles that the cleaner environment they may create in the vicinity of the vehicle in question is not offset by a greater environmental problem elsewhere in relation to the generation of the necessary energy to power the vehicle?

Answer

I believe Deputy Baudains is referring to the comments I have made in relation to the recently launched Air Quality Strategy, included in the article published in the JEP on the 28th May entitled Call for greener cars in air quality drive'.

Emissions produced from energy used to fuel cars are the main contributor to air pollution on the Island and the Air Quality Strategy provides a framework for ensuring that our air quality is maintained and improved.

We must encourage people to use lower emission and more environmentally friendly powered cars such as electric, hydrogen or compressed air vehicles in the future.

In relation to the total environmental impact of these alternatively powered vehicles, much depends on how clean the source of power to manufacture and run the cars is. As identified in the Pathway 2050: An Energy Plan for Jersey', tidal and wind power may play a role in the future for the island and help us towards reducing carbon emissions and improving our air quality.

3. SENATOR S.C. FERGUSON OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING SUICIDE RATES:

Question

How many attempted suicides and actual suicides have there been over the past 5 years? Answer

Between 2008 and 2011 there were an average of 13-14 suicides each year, ranging from in any one year from seven to 25 (see Figure 1). However figures have dropped significantly during the last 3 years.

Figure 1: Numbers of suicides and open verdicts in past five years

*provisional: subject to sign-off by Deputy Viscount

In the UK open verdicts are included in research on suicide, for this reason they are also included here.

Initial indications from 2013 suggest that the trend towards a reduction in the number of deaths from suicide is continuing.

Attempted suicide

Attempted suicide is a more difficult question to answer and is usually estimated by looking at attendances at local Emergency Departments.

The Jersey Emergency Department data for 2012 showed 51 attendances coded as deliberate self harm', the majority of these were for people under the age of 35.

Some of these cases would be attempted suicide, but they could equally have been a cry for help' or a behavioural issue. We have no way of knowing for sure and, therefore, it is not possible to ascertain with any degree of certainty how many emergency DSH cases were actual attempted suicides.

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTHAND SOCIAL  SERVICES  REGARDING  THE  RE-INTRODUCTION  OF HOSPITAL PRESCRIPTION CHARGES:

Question

Prior to her decision to lodge P.72/2013 on the reintroduction of hospital prescription charges, (Hospital Outpatients- re-introduction  of  prescription  charges')  what  consideration,  if  any, did  the  Minister,  in conjunction with the Minister for Social Security, give to measures to address the underlying problem of the high cost of accessing primary health care through GPs and, if none, why not?

As part of the longer term plans for the reform of primary care will the Minister work with the Minister for Social Security so that appropriate proposals can be brought to the States to address the issue of prescription charges?

Answer

The cost of GP consultations is not within the scope of this proposition, but the Minister for Social Security and I are both committed to working together to develop a more sustainable future model for primary care, which includes the cost of accessing GP services.

The reintroduction of community prescription charges will be considered as part of that wider review of primary care, agreed as part of P.82/2012: Health and Social Services: A New Way Forward; which will be undertaken in collaboration with Social Security and other stakeholders, as appropriate.

In this sense the two departments will continue to work together on prescription charges, just as they have during the development of this proposal, in arriving at the list of exemptions which might apply to those on low incomes or other vulnerable groups.

It is important to remember that a number of exemptions to Hospital Pharmacy Outpatient Prescription Charges have been agreed between HSSD and Social Security, including:

• Individuals who receive a personal-care component under the income support scheme
• Individuals who receive assistance from Social Security with their Residential Care fees
• All children under 16 years of age
• Vulnerable groups such as some psychiatric patients

In addition, certain medicines would also continue to be free for all people, including:

• all cancer treatments
• those prescribed for public health reasons

5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE HIGH COST OF ACCESSING PRIMARY HEALTH CARE THROUGH G.P.s:

Question

What consideration has the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister for Health and Social Services, given to measures to address the problem of the high cost of accessing primary health care through GPs and if none, why not?

What plans, if any, does the Minister have to address the issue of prescription charges, and if none, will he commit himself to assess this issue and to bring proposals to the States in the next 18 months?

Answer

Both the Minister for Social Security and the Minister for Health and Social Services are fully committed to working together to deliver a sustainable health and social care system, properly funded and delivering services to Islanders in the most appropriate, cost-effective manner to meet their needs. Affordable access to high-quality primary care will be an integral part of this system, and Ministers will be co-operating over the coming years to develop a more sustainable future model for primary care, including access to GP services and the availability of prescription medicines.

As outlined in P.82/2012 (as amended) Health and Social Services: A New Way Forward, a Primary Care Governance Team has been established and the Team is currently co-ordinating an independent review of primary care, leading to the production of a Primary Care Strategy by September 2014. Both the current co-payment system for GP consultations and the possible reintroduction of community prescription charges will be considered as part of this review.

The bulk of the current costs faced by people in Jersey for primary health care is in respect of the GP co-payment, given that medicines and charges for dispensing community prescriptions are free to Islanders, met by the Health Insurance Fund (HIF) pharmaceutical benefit. GPs operate as private businesses and the States do not control the fees they levy. The States does however subsidise the cost of each GP consultation in the form of a medical benefit, currently set at £20.28 per visit, paid directly to GPs to contribute towards the cost of a consultation with a patient.

The number of visits to GPs has remained relatively steady over recent years, although there has been a steady annual increase in the number of prescriptions issued and paid for by the Health Insurance Fund. In total, the HIF provided £8.6M towards supporting the cost of GP fees in 2011 and a further £17M in respect of drug costs and the dispensing thereof.

In addition, substantial investment has been provided to establish and maintain the local Primary Care Governance Team and separately the HIF has provided funding of approximately £1 million to improve the IT systems that support GP surgeries.

In addition to the funding provided through the HIF, households with low incomes are able to access additional financial support via the Income Support benefit. Income Support contains dedicated components which are designed to address the extra costs associated with long term medical conditions and additional GP visits.

I must emphasise that community prescriptions are currently free to all Islanders covered by the Health Insurance Fund and that I have no plans to reintroduce prescription charges. Community prescriptions will continue to be available free of charge until the review of primary care is complete; if that review recommends a reintroduction of prescription charges then proposals will be put to the States for debate as part of the overall model of primary care.

6. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING THE ARREST OF MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC FOR PLANNING INFRACTIONS:

Question

Can members of the public be arrested by the Police for alleged planning infractions and, if so, can such individuals also be legally required by the Police to report to the police station on a daily basis whilst these allegations are investigated?

The Police have the power of arrest under Article 3 of the Police Force (Jersey) Law 1974 where they with reasonable cause suspect "that any person has committed, is committing or is about to commit, an offence" That would, therefore, also include a planning offence.

However, in practice the Police do not carry out criminal investigations for infractions of the Planning legislation (Planning and Building (Jersey) Law 2002). These are policed' or investigated by the Planning and Building Department.

Planning officers do not have a power of arrest and any person who breaches Planning legislation would be invited for interview with Planning officers. If the person refuses to be interviewed, as is their right, Planning officers would submit a file to the Attorney General for consideration of prosecution, without the accused's input. That person may then be warned or summoned for Court.

However, if the person were to refuse to answer to a summons to attend Court, their arrest could be ordered by the Court and they could then be arrested by the Police for failing to appear in Court. If, subsequently, they were released on conditions, these would be conditions imposed by the Court and not the Police or Planning officers. Such bail conditions imposed by a Court could include a requirement to report periodically to the Police. If they did not adhere to these conditions, the Court could order their arrest for breach of bail conditions and they could then be arrested by the Police.

7. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS REGARDING INVESTIGATIONS INTO HISTORIC ABUSE:

Question

Since police investigations began in 2007 in relation to historic abuse can the Minister advise if there have been any cases investigated by the States of Jersey Police where abuse was alleged by both another perpetrator of abuse and corroborated by a victim yet no prosecution was then brought and, if so, what was the reason for this?

Answer

The investigations which began in 2007 in relation to historical abuse are both voluminous and complex. Deputy Trevor Pitman, on the afternoon of 13th June 2013, in response to a request from the Minister, gave the name of the relevant accused person. However, despite this, it has not been possible to produce an answer by noon on Monday 17th June 2013.

The Minister will provide an answer as soon as possible but that answer will anonymise the details.

8. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE RE-REGISTRATION OF LODGING HOUSES:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether, in the case of the owner of a self-catering property who has re- registered the premises as a lodging house yet retained one unit out of ten as a (third party) manager's flat, all of the tenants are still classed as private tenants in law?

Following the introduction of the new Control of Housing and Work (Jersey) Law, 2012, on the 1st July, 2013, the Residential Tenancy (Jersey) Law, 2011, which itself came into force on the 1st May, 2013, will apply equally to all new residential tenancy agreements entered into for residential units that meet the definitions under the Law, whether the unit is a manager's flat or any other unit, irrespective of the residential status of that unit, or any registration under the Lodging Houses (Registration) (Jersey) Law, 1962.

The relevant provisions of the Residential Tenancy (Jersey) Law, 2011, are included in Article 1 and 2 of the Law, as outlined below.

1 Interpretation

"residential tenancy" means the right to occupy a residential unit under a residential tenancy agreement;

"residential tenancy agreement" means an agreement –

1. for the exclusive occupation, by one or more natural persons who are party to the agreement, of a residential unit as a dwelling;
2. for value; and
3. f or a specified term of 9 years or less, or without a specified term; "residential unit" has the meaning set out in Article 2;

" tenant" means, in relation to a residential unit, residential tenancy or residential tenancy agreement, the person who has the right to occupy the residential unit that is the subject of the residential tenancy under the residential tenancy agreement

2 Premises to which this Law applies

1. In this Law, "residential unit" means a self-contained dwelling, that is, a dwelling that has, for the exclusive use of the inhabitants of the dwelling, a minimum of all of the following, whether or not in separate rooms –

1. a shower or bath (or other facility, no less convenient than those, in which a person may wash);
2. a washbasin;
3. a kitchen;
4. a sleeping space; and
5. a lavatory.

2. For the purposes of paragraph (1), the fact that a dwelling has (or is associated with the use of) a garden, a swimming pool, a parking space, a garage or other space or facility does not make the dwelling any less a residential unit.
3. For the purposes of paragraph (1), any of the following parts of premises is not a residential unit unless used solely as a place of residence by a person employed on the premises –

1. any part of a hotel;
2. any part of premises ordinarily used for holiday purposes;
3. any part of an educational institution, or of a hospital, hospice, nursing home, shelter, or residential home;
4. any part of a club offering sleeping accommodation to its members.

9. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE IMPACT OF THE REFERENDUM ON ST. HELIER VOTERS: Question

Would the Attorney General advise whether individuals who are aggrieved by the fact that Option B of the Electoral Commission (which gives greater representation to residents of the smaller rural parishes at the expense of St. Helier and other urban parishes) would have any recourse against the States of Jersey via the European Court of Human Rights if this Option is implemented?

Answer

No human rights arguments arise here.

The European Convention of Human Rights does not impose any legal requirement that each vote in an election must have equal value in determining the composition of the legislature. On the contrary, the European Courts have consistently held that that there is no obligation on a State to introduce a particular voting system. For example, first-past-the-post elections are considered human rights compliant even in countries whose constitutions protect equality of voting as a fundamental right. In 1979, the Liberal Democrats secured 18.8 % of the votes in a general election in the United Kingdom but only obtained 1.7% of the seats in Parliament. The European Court rejected their complaint that there had been a breach of human rights law.

The European Court affords jurisdictions a wide margin of appreciation and has regard to the particular political history of the jurisdiction. In this case, Option B seeks to preserve the role of the Connétable s and, given their historic link to the States Assembly, that is a feature of Option B that would carry significant weight with the European Court.

The European Court would also be struck by the number of politicians that are elected in Jersey, and would be elected in St Helier and other urban areas if Option B is implemented, having regard to the Island's size and population.

The Vienna Commission guidelines are guidelines that do not change the legal position as described above.

4. Oral Questions

1. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding complaints received from members of the public alleging maladministration:

Since the Minister's appointment, have any complaints been received from a member of the public alleging maladministration of his department and, if so, would he advise what proportion of these complaints have been independently investigated and written responses made and detail a number of complaints which are still without reply?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

My department welcomes feedback and has a customer feedback policy that sets out how customer comments, complaints and compliments are dealt with. This policy is available from the

department and on the States website. Formal complaints and those of a more serious nature need to be made in writing to the department by email or letter and these are fully investigated by the department senior manager and a response provided. The complainant can ask that their complaint be reviewed by the department director or the chief executive officer if they are not satisfied with the response they have received to their complaint. If the complainant is still not satisfied with the outcome, they have the right to raise their complaint with the States of Jersey Complaints Board and their complaint may be heard at a public hearing by an independent board. I would also expect that any complaints relating to illegal or corrupt activity are to be reported to the police. In relation to formal complaints, the department received 7 complaints in 2011, 13 in 2012 and 3 to date in 2013. As might be expected, a large proportion of these complaints relate to planning decisions with a small number relating to customer service issues. All of those complaints received have been investigated and a response given to the complainant and are now closed. I believe the department receives a very small number of complaints in comparison to the many thousands of varied and difficult decisions it makes per year.

1. Deputy J.H. Young:

Can I ask the Minister to confirm that he does keep a complaints register or make sure that one is kept and could he confirm that 23 complaints in the period is the whole total of the number of criticisms that his department is receiving? Would he agree that seems an extraordinarily low number, given the contentiousness of their decisions?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I can confirm that 23 over the period of 2011 to 2013 are the figures that I have received. The department does keep a complaints register and, as I said, I do think that this does represent a very low number of complaints perhaps compared to other States departments.

2. Deputy J.H. Young:

Could he say if this complaints register is publicly available? Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I will check that. I think it is but if the Deputy would wish to inspect the list that I have in my folder, I would be happy to pass those details on to him.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Could I ask is it possible for that list to be shared with other States Members as well who have had complaints made about the department?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Yes, it may need to be docked a little bit in order to take out any data protection elements but I will sort that with the officers.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the emissions from compressed air vehicles:

With regard to the Air Quality Strategy, would the Minister concede that the alternative vehicle propulsion methods he proposes are inefficient when compared with vehicles having their own engine and that the end result merely swaps one environmental problem for another?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

First of all, with regard to the question, I am not proposing any particular alternative vehicles. I am proposing general principles of the States or any other bodies who are interested in looking at different vehicles that are in a position to reduce the pollutants that are omitted. Likewise, I am not suggesting that vehicles should be adopted that do not have their own engine. Pedal power, for example. While accepting that low emission environmentally friendly powered vehicles such as

electric vehicles, hydrogen powered vehicles or compressed air vehicles might not be suitable for all domestic and commercial use, I strongly believe that they can nonetheless contribute towards reducing our carbon emissions and improving our air quality within the built-up area and beyond.

[09:45]

Emissions produced from energy used to fuel cars are the main contributor to air pollution on the Island and we must encourage people to use lower emission, more environmentally friendly powered cars to protect our environment for future generations.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

The Minister appears to be saying he is not promoting these. In which case, I wonder why he is going to the lengths that he is in saying that he prefers this. Does the Minister appreciate that, for example, electric vehicles are less efficient - because of all the transmission losses - than a diesel powered vehicle? A compressed air vehicle is even worse. So is it not the case that each of those alternatives would use more fuel per mile driven than a diesel powered car and how can there be an environmental benefit then?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

This is a technical issue and while not wishing to bore Members, I am quite happy to take Deputy Baudains to one side  [Laughter] and to have a technical discussion with an engineer and a mathematician who do not always get on but, that said, the Deputy makes half a point. The omissions that are to be noted are highly dependent on what the primary fuel to power these vehicles is. So if we take, for example, tidal power or indeed wind power being used with gas compression techniques to drive motor vehicles, then obviously the overall emissions are going to be lower. If, on the other hand, one is suggesting that one has a gasoline station in the middle of the sea or somewhere else where we are burning hydrocarbons in order to compress the gases, then obviously those gas emissions would still be being made in a different place. I take that point entirely and it is all about lifecycle costing both in financial terms and in environmental and emission terms. So I think, in this particular case, I take the Deputy 's point on board but we are both right.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Which particular emissions does the Minister want to stop? Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

The Minister wants to reduce overall the carbon dioxide emissions and, more notably, the nitrogen emissions and indeed all of the other hydrocarbon pollutants that we breathe from unburned fuels that are driving through our urban canyons.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

Given the Minister's very ambitious targets, does he not believe that simply substituting one kind of car for another is not really the solution?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I think there is perhaps a tendency or an impression that when the Minister for Planning and Environment Minister goes off on one, he is way out there on his own but Members have to realise that I am merely indicating - perhaps ahead of the game - those changes that are being made with important car manufacturing companies. If people do a little bit of background research, one will notice that, for example, on 25th January this year, the car company Peugeot suggested that they were going to be bringing out a hybrid air compressed car, albeit by 2016, so it is a little bit ahead of time. But if large manufacturing companies are looking at these things, I am merely the messenger here suggesting that things are on the horizon which can deliver more important and better environmental benefits to the whole of the population, either born or not born, and this is part of the remit of the Minister's job.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Sir, I do not need to ask my question now.

4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

Is the Minister aware that a pair of electric motorcycles took a star turn in the recent Jersey International Motoring Festival and that they were among the fastest recorded speeds in the speed trials on Victoria Avenue? Would he agree further with me that the number of Jersey residents who live on heavily congested roads in and out of the urban areas deserve an enthusiastic and wholehearted pursuit of lower emissions in our vehicles on Island roads?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I agree wholeheartedly with the Constable of St. Helier on this point but will go further to suggest that not everybody would be safe on a fast motorbike and perhaps if those motorbikes had 3 wheels or indeed 4 wheels, it is perhaps the better option.

5. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

The Minister's Air Quality Strategy is informed by data from 2 monitors located within St. Helier. Would the Minister confirm that these monitors do not conform to recognised standards as set out in E.U. (European Union) testing equipment?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I was under the impression that they did and perhaps the sole argument that was being put forward by the Environment Scrutiny Panel was that perhaps further requests should be made to the Treasury in order to pay for further monitoring. If indeed it can be shown that the monitors that we do have are insufficient to assess the state of affairs according to international standards, then I would be seriously concerned.

6. Deputy J.H. Young:

Would the Minister confirm that at the recent Environment Scrutiny Panel hearing, it was said by the Director of Public Health that emissions from vehicles was responsible for a substantial amount of lung disease in the Island, particularly in locations close to the road. Would he confirm that?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Absolutely, and that is why we have these questions presumably because if the Island can do anything or something more to reduce the amount of emissions that can be attributable to poor health conditions or poor living conditions for those living in town, then so much the better.

7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I am not going to get, obviously, into the wider debate of unleaded petrol versus leaded and electric vehicles and battery problems and all that but I have to say that I think everybody realises that compressing air warms it up, so I look forward to the invitation from the Minister to discuss the issue of vehicles powered by hot air. In the interim, I would ask the Minister would he prepare a table showing the total carbon footprint of these alternative vehicles compared with conventional ones?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I will do but people have to realise that, even with nuclear power, there are carbon emissions and if our accounting systems are to truly paint the correct picture, then perhaps the level playing field of lifecycle costing should be how we present our information. If I can do that - and that is obviously a bigger job - then I will do so.

3. The Connétable of St. Helier of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the listing of St. Helier 's parks:

Can the Minister advise whether a process is underway to list St. Helier's parks including the wooded area of Westmount adjacent to St. Aubin's Road and, if so, will he provide details to the Assembly?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

The answer to the Constable's question is yes. An assessment of the important desired landscapes in Jersey has been undertaken as part of the recent re-survey of all of the Island's heritage assets and this has included St. Helier's public parks. The area referred to by the Constable is part of Westmount Park which is considered to be a typical late 19th Century naturalistic cliffside seaside park which expertly exploits the topography to provide easy walks and marine views. That has obviously been said by people who have not walked up the steep slopes but there you go. This has survived largely intact and its design will probably be of national significance in England. In Jersey, it is of major significance as an early and complex public park of the Island representing part of the history of the Island as a tourist resort and part of an ensemble with the contiguous People's and Victoria Parks. On the basis of this historic interest, I am in the process of considering a recommendation from Jersey Heritage to list Westmount Park along with others in the Parish of St. Helier.

1. The Connétable of St. Helier :

In the light of the Minister's comments, could he explain why on page 5 of the written answer to Deputy Martin who asked about this matter of the proposed substation on Westmount Park, it says underlined at the top of the page under "The Proposed Use": "Planning Officers agree with this proposal subject to design criteria"?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I am just reading the written question briefly. That may well be because the Planning Officers, in making those comments, are just talking about the design issues of the particular substation and not taking the siting of the substation in a potentially listable area into account.

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Sir, I know you do not normally ask Ministers to Ministers but this is a matter by discharge the function of Shell over the J.E.C. (Jersey Electricity Company), which is the matter in hand. I would be obliged if the Minister would confirm that while, of course, there needs to be a high protection of the wooded area, would he confirm his understanding that the area proposed for the substation is, in fact, the small disused quarry which could hardly be described as part of the woodland?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

The small disused quarry is not part of the woodland obviously but it is part of the park which might have a listed designation in the near future. That said, also I have not been made aware of any further suggestions by the J.E.C. or, indeed, the Minister for Treasury and Resources, as to other potential sites that could be used to place this energy substation.

The Connétable of St. Helier :

I have no more questions, thank you.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

May I ask a question?

The Bailiff :

No, Senator. I think as one Minister to another, you can go and discuss it elsewhere.

4. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John of the Chief Minister regarding the rationale and criteria for sending Jersey delegations to U.K. party political conferences:

Could the Minister inform the Assembly what the rationale and criteria are for sending Jersey delegations to U.K. (United Kingdom) party political conferences?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

Jersey's most important political relationship is with the U.K. Due to our status as a Crown Dependency, there are a number of policy areas, such as immigration, citizenship, tax and financial services, aviation and maritime issues, where Jersey's interests can be affected by U.K. Government policy. We therefore need to put forward Jersey's position and interests in relation to these issues directly to those who are developing U.K. policy in both government and opposition. Ministerial attendance at the U.K. party conferences is an important means of ensuring enhanced engagement with U.K. Government Ministers, Shadow Ministers and prominent parliamentarians. It has never been more important that Jersey's message is heard so that we can develop a better understanding among U.K. policymakers of our constitutional position, our key economic and social interests, and the value we provide to the U.K. economy.

1. The Connétable of St. John :

Given that U.K.I.P. (United Kingdom Independence Party) are polling consistently as the third most popular political party in the U.K. and a Survation poll in the Mail on Sunday on 26th May have them within 2 percentage points of the Conservative Party, would the Minister look into the possibility of sending a delegation to the U.K.I.P. party conference?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I would not wish to make government policy on the back of an opinion poll taken out in a different jurisdiction. I do not think anyone in this Assembly would thank me for that. I perhaps could simply remind the Connétable of the amount of representation that that party has in the U.K.'s Parliament itself and perhaps when that increases, Jersey's Government policy will change as well.

The Connétable of St. John :

In other words, the answer is no?

The Bailiff :

I will come back to you, Connétable .

2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Perhaps the Constables can be sent to the U.K.I.P conference as a delegation. I would ask the Chief Minister just to clarify how are the delegations how do they work? Is it by invite or are the invites sought directly by the Comms. Unit, by the Chief Minister's Department? If the Chief Minister could explain.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not sure what the Deputy is asking. The invitation in what regard? Deputy M. Tadier :

Let us phrase it in a different way. When Ministers or whoever attends from the Jersey Assembly at party conferences, are they invited by the individual parties or do they simply pay a subscription and attend and in what capacity do they attend?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Attendance is decided by Jersey Ministers, those Ministers which are members of what we call F.E.R.A.G. (Financial Services and External Relations Advisory Group) which is the advisory group which advises me with regard to external relations and financial services and often it comes down to previous diary commitments and we divide up in that regard. The party conferences are, as I have said, about engaging Ministers, Shadow Ministers and important parliamentarians and we do not, as such, attend the plenary sessions of the party conference that Members might see televised but we have one-to-one meetings with those policymakers and influencers and occasionally we might speak at fringe events as well.

[10:00]

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Along the same lines really, can the Chief Minister advise whether the party conferences attended are just for those who currently have seats in power or if they are potentially any political party? I only ask that because U.K.I.P.'s policies are probably pretty similar to the Monster Raving Loony Party. I wondered if we should go there as well.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think I have indicated quite clearly what our position would be with regard to U.K.I.P. and we intend this year to send Ministerial delegations to the 2 parties of Government and the official opposition party's conference as well.

4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I was unclear by the Chief Minister's answer to Deputy Tadier 's question as to whether or not he had been invited or whether he had invited himself.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I thought I was quite clear. Jersey Ministers decide to go. There is a cost to attendance and that is an approach taken by other similar jurisdictions to ourselves.

5. The Connétable of St. John :

During Nigel Farage's recent visit to Jersey, he spoke of his support for the finance industry and the promotion of the U.K.-Jersey relationship. Does the Chief Minister agree that we should be working with politicians who are respective and well informed of our Island and its finance industry as well as with individuals such as the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer who continued to write ill-informed letters and summoned our Chief Minister and others to Downing Street to be lectured to?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The only individual I believe that can summon this Chief Minister is Her Majesty. I get invited to various meetings. As soon as I received the invitation from the United Kingdom Prime Minister within 24 hours of receiving that invitation, I said that I would be delighted to attend because I support the U.K. Government's approach and its agenda of growth and the priorities that it has got for the G8 so perhaps I can clarify that position. My position with regard to U.K.I.P. and other parties is as I have stated in previous answers.

5. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding the Assistant Minister with responsibility for External Affairs reading confidential documents in public:

Following his meeting with the businessmen, plural, who raised concern at seeing the Assistant Minister with responsibility for external affairs reading confidential documents in full view of the public on a flight, does the Chief Minister support the Assistant Minister's views expressed on 14th

May 2013 that the allegations were inaccurate and gave a fictitious and malicious account and if not, will he now be asking his Assistant Minister to resign?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

Senator Bailhache 's interest in this matter is as a Back-Bencher and member of the lay community of the Church of England in Jersey. This issue does not form part of his official responsibilities as an Assistant Minister. As to Senator Bailhache 's views on the matter, they are his own and do not require support from others.

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I just draw the Chief Minister's attention to the Ministerial Code of Conduct and perhaps he can explain. It does say that Ministers who knowingly mislead the States will be expected to offer their resignation to the Chief Minister. Does this apply to Assistant Ministers with responsibility for external affairs or are Assistant Ministers permitted to mislead the Assembly at will whenever they are exposed as telling the exact opposite to the truth?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I can reiterate, as I said in my opening answer, that Senator Bailhache 's views on this matter are his own and they are well recorded in this Assembly. They do not require support from myself or others and, of course, as the Deputy well knows, the Ministerial Code of Conduct covers Ministers and Assistant Ministers.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does the Chief Minister think that the 2 businessmen were lying in their version of the events and the fact that it does totally contradict his Assistant Minister's statement to this House, does he not think that his answer is unsatisfactory?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I have said, I am not to be drawn I have no reason to doubt the 2 businessmen, nor have I reason to doubt Senator Bailhache .

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

How can the Chief Minister square the circle on that? One or the other has obviously got it wrong. Now, which version of events does the Chief Minister take on board because the Assistant Minister told this House he did not have documents that had the names of the individuals on the aeroplane in view of the public and yet the 2 businessmen stated quite categorically that he did.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Senator Bailhache , if I recall from Hansard, said he did not recall reading anything other than what has become known as the Korris Report.

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Is the Chief Minister saying in his answer by distinguishing between the Assistant Chief Minister's role on the Executive and that he performs as a Back-Bencher, is he saying in matters of the utmost importance and behaviour that there is a difference to be drawn between the standards applied to our Back-Bench behaviour and the standards that are applied to our Executive behaviour?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not saying that at all but I am saying that, as Senator Bailhache himself said, any information with regard to this particular issue came to him either as a Back-Bencher or as a lay member of the Church of England in Jersey and some Members are trying to draw me in as if it were part of an official responsibility, which it was not.

5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can I have clarification from the Chief Minister? Does he believe the standards applied in both of our roles should, in essence, be similar?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I have already accepted.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Does the Chief Minister consider that the use of the description "fictitious and malicious account" given by his Assistant Minister is a breach of the Code of Conduct of Members in requesting Members to treat all members of the public with respect?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Members seem intent on trying to draw me into something from an activity that was undertaken by a Back-Bencher Member in a Back-Bench capacity and in his capacity as a lay member of the Church of England in Jersey. I do not think that they would request the same of any other Back- Bencher. As I said, Senator Bailhache 's views on this matter are his own and they do not require support from me or others.

7. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Surely on this issue, the Code of Conduct applies to all Members, not just Assistant Ministers, in the conduct of their business?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

If that is the feeling of the Member, perhaps he should refer the matter to P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee).

8. Deputy M. Tadier :

Does the Chief Minister accept that he has responsibility for the behaviours and the conduct of his Ministers, irrespective of whether they are performing a role which is directly related to their portfolio or not?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I have been quite clear. If that were the case, then I should be held responsible for everybody's activity in this Assembly and I do not think that that would be a reasonable position to take.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

Obviously this is complicated because if the Assistant Minister were acting in a different capacity, it does relate to external relations, which is his portfolio. But the question here which needs to be answered is that there is an allegation which is hanging over Senator Bailhache 's head that he misled this Assembly or, from Deputy Trevor Pitman, that he may have lied because he said that the claims of the Deputy and of the businessmen were fictitious and malicious. The Chief Minister has met with the businessmen. Does the Chief Minister believe that the allegations of the Deputy and the businessmen are fictitious and malicious? That last part is my question.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I have said throughout this discourse, Members seem to be wishing me to act as a judge. That is not part of my responsibility as Chief Minister.

10. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

What an embarrassment the Chief Minister's responses are but I thank him for revealing to the public that he is not fit, in my opinion, to lead this Government. If I could just refer him to his Assistant Minister's answer, because he is not a Back-Bencher, as we just heard. He said: "I have already said that the document is fictitious and malicious" and he said I produced a document purporting, i.e. pretending, to be an email from a member of the public. The Chief Minister has met those 2 gentlemen. He knows they are telling the truth. He knows they can identify documents that the Assistant Minister said that he did not have. Is he going to do something appropriately and at least ask his Assistant Minister to apologise to me and to this Assembly and to those 2 members of the public or is he going to do what he normally does, show utter weakness and do nothing?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I have been quite clear in my answers this morning. Members are trying to get me to act as investigator and judge on these matters. That cannot be appropriate. Perhaps I could say, however, in Senator Bailhache 's defence in this regard, it was the questioner this morning who thrust into my hand 5 minutes before a States sitting, at the last but one States sitting and I passed that on to Senator Bailhache . There was no name attached to that. It could not from that document be ascertained whether it was a fictitious document or not.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

It is a leading answer. I must put that on the record.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I beg to differ. That is exactly the point as was at that point in time and I believe now 2 weeks ago. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

And the Senator has met with 2 physical people.

6. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the development of a language immersion school in Jersey:

As language immersion schools have become increasingly popular in North America and are now appearing in Britain, has any research been undertaken into the benefits of these schools and if so, does the Minister consider that Jersey should develop this concept to the advantage of our own students to increase the Island's skills base?

Deputy P.J.D. Ryan of St. John (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

I thank the Connétable for her interest in language teaching, particularly French. We are going to visit a bilingual school in London in the early part of the autumn term and, at the same time, we will be investigating the question of total immersion schools as well. There is much research that we need to do. The research is at a very early stage and while there may be significant advantages to bilingual education generally, including immersion schools, it might not be suitable for all pupils, particularly those that have difficulty learning their first language and there are also other factors that will need to be carefully considered and a lot of consultation will have to take place.

1. The Connétable of St. Mary :

The thrust of my question is really to talk about language immersion and not about bilingual education because the research that I am reading is showing that the benefits to pupils, particularly those who are not linguistically able, the benefits across the curriculum in other subjects apart from languages are proving to make the worth of these schools make it stand alone and I would like to know whether the Minister will be looking specifically at benefits to non-linguists?

The Deputy of St. John :

I think we will be looking at the benefits to all children right across the piece and I do understand that full immersion can work very well in places in the world where the population is genuinely bilingual or, in fact, even biased not towards English, towards the second language, for example, as some areas of Canada and some areas of the United States where there are very, very high populations of Chinese people.

[10:15]

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the Minister address why he seems to already have reservations about the notion of immersion schools when he has just said he is going to go over to London and can he reassure the Assembly that he is going into it with an open mind and that he will look for the benefits and even drawbacks for all students?

The Deputy of St. John :

I would not use the same words as the Deputy did. Cautious is my approach because this is a big subject and if we are going to do anything, we need to get it right but yes, I can reassure the Deputy that I have a completely open mind. In fact, I would go slightly further, in fact, that I have quite a positive view on the benefits of improving our language education in general.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

On the back of that, will the Minister give an update to the Assembly of where he is with the modern languages strategy for schools which I think he has spoken about in the past, certainly with me?

The Deputy of St. John :

I am not sure if this is strictly to do with immersion schools but I am happy to or perhaps the Deputy would like to ask me again during

Deputy M. Tadier :

If it helps I can ask a question about immersion heaters. The Deputy of St. John :

I think the Deputy is referring to French language assistance principally? No. Well, I mistook the question. We are looking at those things. We are keeping an open mind. I have a Curriculum Council that advises me. We have to be careful though with the curriculum because it is already quite crowded and we have to see where the demands lie.

4. The Connétable of St. Mary :

I am concerned from the Minister's answers that he is not understanding the thrust of my question. I am not talking about areas where there are indigenous populations who speak a second language. I am not talking about that. I am talking about developing language immersion as a way of education and adding it as a string to our bow. Does the Minister not consider that Jersey may be missing the boat yet again? We are in a uniquely placed environment to offer language immersion to attract inward students. We could become a centre of excellence. Would the Minister first of all confirm, does he understand the difference between immersion as an educational tool and immersion as a way to overcome a societal problem with immigration?

The Deputy of St. John :

I have read much of the same research already that the Constable is referring to. Yes, I absolutely understand the differences between a bilingual school and a full immersion school but there is as much research which prefers bilingual rather than full immersion as there is research that prefers full immersion as opposed to bilingual. We need to carry out all of the research. I have already said that I am very receptive to all of these kinds of suggestions and that we will carry out very careful and detailed research and consultation and it will include those Members of the Assembly obviously who are particularly interested as well.

5. The Connétable of St. Mary :

I thank the Minister for his invitation, I think that is what I just heard, but I would just like to close by asking the Minister will he arrange to contact or to visit perhaps, if that is possible, one of the State schools in the United Kingdom which is opening up its immersion programme to see what the benefits they have already encountered with their first programmes of French and Spanish to see how they are looking at Mandarin as a third option and to see how this could possibly be the niche educational market for the Island that we have been looking for?

The Deputy of St. John :

Our research will obviously include all of those areas that the Constable is suggesting, yes.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Health and Social Security regarding the evaluation of new management positions:

How are new management positions such as those in the new Commissioning Unit evaluated in order to ensure, for example, that the annual expenditure of £269,450 for this unit is fully justified?

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

My department will be delivering on an ambitious £34 million project to improve health and social care in Jersey. This comes at a time when we also need to find £7 million in savings through the C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review) programme. The Commissioners are fundamental in achieving this. Their responsibilities include supporting delivery of the White Paper initiatives worth a total of £11 million, negotiating and managing overseas contracts for hospital services worth a further £11 million, negotiating and managing placements for children and adults in the U.K. worth a total of £4 million, negotiating and managing a further £8 million on-Island contracts. The Commissioners are also crucial to building key relationships and improving partnership working as well as contributing to our C.S.R. My department expects the Commissioners to deliver these initiatives and as such, I consider the cost to be fully justified.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Firstly, would the Minister acknowledge then that all the savings that are anticipated were not being sought by previous management structures and the department was, in fact, wasting an awful lot of money? Secondly, would she not acknowledge that a commissioning system is very much a system oriented to creating competition within health delivery and is it not a total over-structured system to apply to a small Island where the possibilities of encouraging competition often lead to wasteful fragmentation, both of effort and of money?

The Deputy of Trinity :

No, I would not agree with the Deputy . Part of it over here is partnership, working especially with the voluntary and community sector. Up to now, it has been a bit of a one-way expectation on the contracts but now it is very much 2-way. It is not only what we expect from the voluntary sector but importantly, what the voluntary and community sector expect from the States of Jersey and our department and that is a key change. As I say, building up relationships is vital.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

When can the States expect to hear what progress has been made in achieving those very ambitious targets set out for the Commissioning Unit? When will we hear what progress has been made?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The Commissioners have only been in post for 5 months and have undertaken a lot of work in that short time. The work is of some benefit too if you talk to the voluntary and community sector of improved partnerships but it is also about raising standards right across not only contracts and service level agreements that we have in Jersey but also overseas.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can the Minister point to local improvements in the relationship between voluntary bodies and the hospital which are already in place?

The Deputy of Trinity :

Yes, most of the service level agreements have been in the process of being updated and renegotiated and, as I said, for the first time, the voluntary sector are expecting some feedback, some understanding of what is expected from the States of Jersey for them. The feedback so far has been very excellent. They say for the first time, and Deputy Southern is very happy to talk to anyone within the voluntary and community sector, that they feel valued and appreciated and welcomed the opportunity to contribute actively to the developments.

4. Deputy J.H. Young:

Would the Minister inform the Assembly that the responsibilities of these new management positions that have been created that she has explained, whether these are new responsibilities and if they are not, could she tell us how those functions were being discharged before we invented this new structure?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The Commissioners are new within Health and Social Services. Before, the department, as I said, negotiated with 80 different hospitals, for example in the U.K. regarding the medical treatment, children and adult placements and mental health. At that time, the agreements were managed through the hospital as an add-on for people who were doing other important jobs. From now on, we will be able to benefit from further and more detailed negotiations of service to ensure best value for money, consistently high standards, both off-Island and on-Island, which will benefit patient care.

5. Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen :

The Minister was asked: how are the new management positions evaluated? Perhaps she could answer the question.

The Deputy of Trinity :

How are they evaluated? Well, we did wonder which side the Deputy Le Hérissier wanted. The posts were Hay evaluated.

6. The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think if the Minister reviews the question that was asked by Deputy Le Hérissier, she will see it was regarding value for money and the fact that they were going to deliver as per their engagement so perhaps, again, the Minister could answer the question.

The Deputy of Trinity :

As I have said, they have only been there in the job for 5 months. They have delivered service contracts, some off-Island and some on-Island, and how they are evaluated is the data that will come back informing service deliveries going forward.

7. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier :

Contrary to what the Minister just stated, is the Minister aware of a growing dissent among doctors and the third sector with a feeling of dislocation in relation to the commissioning structure?

The Deputy of Trinity :

The commissioning structure is regarding the on-Island contracts. Regarding primary care, this is a separate issue that we are dealing with sustainable primary care going forward and we are in firm negotiations with primary care which includes G.P.s (General Practitioners), dentists, opticians and pharmacists.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Could she just answer the second part of the question which is in relation to the third sector? The Deputy of Trinity :

Could he repeat that on the third sector?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, I could.

The Deputy of Trinity :

Is he talking about voluntary and community services?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, I am.

The Deputy of Trinity :

Sorry, I forgot that bit of the question.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Sorry, it is just again we have got this situation where the third sector is feeling that the commissioning structure is not resolving the situation that they find themselves in and there is a growing dissent.

The Deputy of Trinity :

I disagree with Deputy Bryans. The voluntary and community sector - known as the third sector - have really appreciated the commissioners because they have taken the time to understand their services and negotiating a way forward. As I said at the very beginning, up to now it has been a one-way traffic what the States of Jersey expect but this time now the voluntary sector is very much what the voluntary and community sector expects from the States of Jersey.

7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

To return to the original question, how does the Minister justify the annual expenditure of £269,450? Can she say that that money has been saved within the first 5 months or that it will be saved in the future?

The Deputy of Trinity :

It is very difficult to put an amount on the salaries. Part of it is negotiating better contracts with service providers to endorse patient care and it is very difficult to put a sum of money on patient care because we need to endorse especially with all the 80 different hospitals that we negotiate with the U.K., we need to ensure that we have the right data back from them and that we understand what their services are and what our Islanders need and be much sharper in achieving that.

8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

That was not my question. My question was: we did a service last year; we did a service this year - how much have we saved?

The Deputy of Trinity :

I have not got as I said, it is very difficult to come up with exactly you cannot do so because how can you put a cost to improving patient care?

9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given that the whole justification was based on money to be saved, I am afraid that is a bit of a cop-out. I wonder could the Minister again inform us why, for internal Jersey-based partnerships why were not the strengths of line managers why were they not given new skills and why was their role not strengthened rather than insert yet another layer of bureaucracy in the health system of people who have to speak to people who then have to speak to further people. Secondly, will they be moving to payment by results?