States Meeting Transcript - 24th September 2013

STATES OF JERSEY

OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 24th SEPTEMBER

COMMUNICATIONS BY PRESIDING OFFICER.............................................7

1. The Deputy Bailiff :......................................................................7

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................7

2. Election of Minister for External Relations ..............................................7

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache : .................................................................7

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ...............................................................8
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:....................................................................8
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson...................................................................9
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:......................................................9
5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................9
6. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................10
7. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................10
8. Connétable S.W. Pallet of St. Brelade:..................................................10
9. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................11
10. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................11

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ...............................................12

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................13
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................13
3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................14
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................14
5. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................14
6. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................14
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................15
8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................15
9. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................15
10. Deputy M.R.Higgins:............................................................16
11. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................16
12. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................17
13. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................17

3. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................17

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................20
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................20
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................20
4. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................20
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21

6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................21
7. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................21
8. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................21
9. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................22
10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................22
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................22
12. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................23
13. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................23
14. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................23
15. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................24
16. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:....................................................24

3. Privileges and Procedures Committee (representative of the Chairmen's Committee). ...........................................................................................25

3.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................25

4. Notification by the Chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel in accordance with Standing Order 125(1) of a reduction in the number of members of that panel.26

4.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................26

5. Election of a member and an associate member to represent the States of Jersey on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. .............................................26

1. Deputy A.K.F. Green of St. Helier:.....................................................29
2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade:......................................................29
3. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................29

QUESTIONS.....................................................................................31

6. Written Questions.......................................................................31

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING SECOND DETERMINATIONS OVER DECISIONS ON INCOME SUPPORT:...................................................................31

2. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ANNUAL RENTAL FROM LIBERTY WHARF PROPERTIES:..........................................................................32

3. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ESPLANADE QUARTER AND HARCOURT:.33
4. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. JOHN OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE FINANCIAL AND PLANNING DETAILS OF THE ESPLANADE QUARTER:........................................................34

5. DEPUTY J.A. MARTIN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE LIBERTYBUS PERFORMANCE RECORD AND DEALING WITH COMPLAINTS AND STAFFING ISSUES:....................................................................34
6. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING EXPLAINING THE BENEFITS OF RAGWORT:........................................................................36

7. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING ALTERATIONS OF LA ROUTE DU FORT AND ST. CLEMENT'S ROAD JUNCTION:................36
8. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE INCINERATOR:..............................................................37
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING UNDERSPENDS AND NEGOTIATIONS FOR PUBLIC SECTOR PAY: .....................................................................................38

10. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING PUBLICATION OF A CLAIMANT-FRIENDLY VERSION OF INCOME SUPPORT CALCULATOR:................................39

11. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING EXTENSION OF MATERNITY LEAVE: ..............40

7. Oral Questions...........................................................................41

1. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding schools charging their former pupils fees for providing the school-attendance certificates required for residence cards:............................................................41

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................42
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................42
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43
4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................43
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
7. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:.......................................................44
8. Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................44
9. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................44

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding a review of Jersey Telecom's wholesale rental structure: ........................................45

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................45
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................45
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................46
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................46
5. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................46
6. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................46
7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................46

3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding tenders for the Energy from Waste Plant:...............................................47

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................47
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................47
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................48
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................48

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a meeting between himself and representatives of the Co-op:...........................48

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................48
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................49
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................49

4. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................49
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................50
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................50

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding zero-hours contract staff and proposals to sanction those leaving employment without good reason':......51

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52
4. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier:.........................................................52
5. Deputy S.Pitman:......................................................................52
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................52
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................53
8. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................53
9. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:............................................................53

7.5.9 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................53

6. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding plans to improve access to Fort Regent:..................................................................54

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................55
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................55
3. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................55
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................56
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................56
6. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................56
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................56

7. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding the full and complete costs arising from the secret court proceedings against former Senator Stuart Syvret:................57

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................57
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................57
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................57
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................57
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................58
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................58
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................58
8. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................59
9. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................59

10. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................59

8. Deputy J.H. Young of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding sites under consideration for the new Les Quennevais School:...............................60

1. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................60
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................61
3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................61
4. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................62
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................62
6. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................63
7. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................63
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................63
   9. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee regarding a study of the fibre optic project undertaken by JT:.....................................64

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................64
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................65

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................65

10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the numbers of under and overpayments of Income Support:..................................................65

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................65
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................66
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................66

11. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding why traffic was not redirected around the north and east of Mount Bingham in order to alleviate traffic congestion caused by the recent rock-fall: ..............................66

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................67
2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................67
3. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................67
4. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : ............................................67
5. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................68

12. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Attorney General regarding compliance with Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights:...............................................68

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................68
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................68
3. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................69
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................70
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................71

8. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Transport and Technical Services..................................................................................71

1. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................71 Deputy K.C. Lewis (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):....................71
2. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................72

8.2.1 The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................72

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................72
4. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................72
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................72
6. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................73
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................73

8.7.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................74

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................74

8.8.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................74

9. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................74
10. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................75

1. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................75
2. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................75

11. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................75
12. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................75

8.12.1 The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................76

9. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Home Affairs ..............76

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................76 Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs): .................................76

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................76
   2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................77
   3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................77

9.3.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................77

4. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................77
5. Deputy S.Power:.......................................................................78
6. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................78
7. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................78

9.7.1 The Connétable of St. John:............................................................79

8. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................79
9. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................79
10. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................79

9.10.1 The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................80

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................80

10. Organ Donors' Register (P.89/2013)....................................................80

10.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................80

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis : .................................................................82
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................82
3. The Deputy of Trinity : ..............................................................83 The Attorney General:........................................................................86
4. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:....................................................86
5. Connétable S.W. Rennard of St. Saviour:............................................88
6. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:..............................................................88
7. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................89
8. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : ........................................89
9. The Connétable of St. Peter:.........................................................89
10. Deputy S.Power:.................................................................90
11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:........................................................91

11. Sunstone Holdings Ltd. and De Lec Ltd. – ex gratia payments to investors (P.90/2013) ...........................................................................................93

11.1 Senator A. Breckon: ....................................................................94

11.1.1 Senator I.J. Gorst : ..................................................................102

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................104

[9:32]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Deputy Bailiff :

There is nothing under A other than to remind Members that we currently have a meeting of the Commonwealth Magistrates' and Judges' Association in the Island, which may explain from time to time over the course of this sitting the absence of both the Bailiff and me from the Chair, but it is a great privilege for the Island to have the Commonwealth Association here.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Election of Minister for External Relations

The Deputy Bailiff :

The first item is the election of Minister for External Relations.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand ( Deputy Chief Minister - rapporteur):

In the temporary absence of the Chief Minister I propose Senator Bailhache for that post. The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

I would like to nominate Deputy G. Baudains. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy Gerard Baudains. Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

I would like to nominate Deputy Montfort Tadier .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Deputy Baudains, Deputy Tadier , can I ask you both to withdraw from the Chamber. Senator Bailhache will give his address to Members and then face questions. Then Deputy Baudains will be invited to return and after that Deputy Tadier will be invited to return.

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache :

After the elections at the end of 2011 I was delighted to be entrusted by the Chief Minister with responsibility for External Relations as an Assistant Minister and I hope that the Assembly will show the same faith by appointing me to the newly created Ministerial post. I believe that the portfolio has never been more important than it is in 2013. The Ministry of Justice has been cutting back on personnel and Jersey is expected to represent its own interests on the international stage to a much greater extent than has ever been the case before. I have been doing the job for 2 years and I think I have acquired some new skills during that time. Before standing for election as a Senator I had represented the Island in different capacities for a number of years. I was Solicitor General

between 1975 and 1986, and Attorney General between 1986 and 1994. During that time I had many dealings with foreign governments and foreign officials in the context of extradition and the investigation and prosecution of criminal offences, and the resolution of legal disputes between the United Kingdom and Jersey. Between 1995 and 2009 I held the office of Bailiff and in that capacity I gained a different experience of representing the Island in a number of other ways, in particular by receiving and entertaining royal and diplomatic visitors, but also by protecting the Island's constitutional position in relation to the United Kingdom by giving advice to Ministers and to senior civil servants. I think that many of the skills I learned during those periods are helpful in the context of the Ministerial role. But diplomacy, as I have discovered, requires other skills too, which I have been trying to learn during the last 2 years. Diplomacy involves finding the sometimes delicate balance between asserting one's position firmly and clearly and using language that achieves that aim but without causing offence and with the best chance of achieving the desired aim. A distinguished former British ambassador to Washington described it as the part of getting one's own way. Jersey, of course, has fewer levers to pull internationally than a sovereign state but that does not mean that the art of diplomacy is unimportant to us, nor that it cannot occasionally be deployed to good effect.

[9:45]

One of the purposes of this speech is to enable Members to learn of the candidates' proposed policies in the Ministerial post. The Minister for External Relations is in the unusual position of having his policies set by the Council of Ministers. The common policy on External Relations has been set by the Council of Ministers and reported to the Assembly and I would of course abide by it. I hope that the Assembly will entrust me with this important office.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We are about to open 20 minutes of question time. The Greffier will sound a bell after 19 minutes, which is a warning, and a final bell after 20 minutes. When the final bell goes after 20 minutes, whether the questioner is speaking or the candidate is speaking, the person speaking will stop and sit down. The final bell will be the final bell. Greffier, if you will now start the clock running. Deputy Le Hérissier.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if the candidate could tell us under what circumstances would he propose independence for Jersey?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

As the Deputy well knows, the Council of Ministers has considered this question and determined that achieving independence is not part of the policy of the Government of Jersey, but it is the policy to seek to be ready for independence, should that become necessary. I think it is very difficult to answer the Deputy 's question, and I am not sure that I am inclined to speculate on the kinds of circumstances which might make it in Jersey's interests to seek that step. At the present time it is not in Jersey's interest.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Obviously the Minister for External Affairs is going to have to answer many questions about Jersey, not only about the finance industry and its role but also, for example, the historic child abuse case, which the Minister for External Relations, for example, was not supportive of the Committee of Inquiry and was not in the States when the vote was taken. I would like to know what his stance is about the historic child abuse and how he can answer the critics that his only history for dealing with these matters was not exemplary.

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I am not sure that I understand what was intended by that last barb from the Deputy . If it was a reference to a speech that I made on Liberation Day in 2008 I do not, I am afraid, resile from anything that I said on that particular occasion. I am not sure that the question of child abuse is central to the role of the Minister for External Affairs. The Assembly has set up a Committee of Inquiry to investigate matters in accordance with the terms of reference and that will be a matter for the Committee of Inquiry in due course. These are sensitive and difficult matters. Every Member of this Assembly is appalled by child abuse and the question of how one prevents it is something that has been considered on a number of occasions. I do not think it has very much to do with the role of the Minister for External Affairs.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson

Given the global dimension of the laws which we are passing, many of which derive from United Nations committees, can the negotiation of relations with the E.U. (European Union) and U.K. (United Kingdom) really be considered as anything other than window-dressing?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The Senator asked a good question a fortnight ago and received a very substantial reply in relation to the legislation which has been passed during the last 40 years, I believe, since the European Communities (Jersey) Law 1973 was enacted. The Senator will know that Jersey's relationship with the European Union is embodied in Protocol 3 and that we are bound by European legislation only to a very limited extent. I think there are circumstances nonetheless when it is in the Island's interest to seek to have European legislation applied to the Island, even though we are not obliged to implement it in accordance with the provisions of Protocol 3. The decision as to whether or not such legislation should be applied does require important consideration and it is not window dressing. There are important considerations to bear in mind.

4. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

Could the candidate please explain what his top 3 priorities, if he were to obtain this position, would be and what they would do for the Island?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

As I said in my opening remarks, the policies of the Minister for External Relations are set out in the common policy which has been adopted by the Council of Ministers, and there are a number of priorities set out in that common policy and I think it would be wrong for me to identify any particular policies which I thought were more important than others,. The Council of Ministers has set the priorities and those are the priorities to be followed.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

I feel I must press the candidate on the issue of independence. He used the phrase: "It is not in the interests of the Island at the present moment." Can he envisage circumstances in which it would be in the Island's interest to declare independence and does he expect to see those conditions in his tenure of office?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I do not know how long the tenure of office will be if I have a tenure of office. I think that is quite a difficult question to answer in that respect. Perhaps I can help the Deputy in this way. In 1971 the United Kingdom decided to negotiate its entry to the European Economic Communities and the first stance taken by the United Kingdom Government at that time was that the Channel Islands did not have a choice. If the U.K. obtained entry to the European Communities then the Channel Islands would go into the Communities on exactly the same basis as the United Kingdom. Very considerable concerns arose at that time and there was much debate as to the future of the Island's autonomy, the future of our industries, and many other things as well. The second stage adopted by the United Kingdom was to say: "We will try to negotiate some special relationship for you and it will be for you, the Islands, to decide whether or not the terms that we have negotiated for you are acceptable. But we must tell you that if you do not accept those terms then you will be obliged to become an independent state and look after your own affairs." The Island was presented with that choice in 1971 and found, after debate in this Chamber, that the terms negotiated by the United Kingdom, after consultation with relevant people and the Committee involved at that stage, were acceptable and Protocol 3 accordingly came into existence. So that was the last occasion when the Island was faced with an ultimatum, as to whether or not it wished to seek independence. As I say, I do not wish to speculate on whether any circumstances like that might arise in the foreseeable future.

6. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

I would like to go back to the answer the candidate gave to Deputy Higgins. The candidate said that he did not feel child abuse was particularly relevant to this role. I have to put it to the candidate that some of us work very hard to try and restore Jersey's international reputation that we are no longer one that sweeps child abuse under the carpet. But throughout his career, Attorney General, the Roger Holland scandal; as Bailiff , Jervis-Dykes; the infamous speech on Liberation Day where, if I could remind the candidate, he said: "Rather than child abuse it was the unjustified and remorseless denigration of Jersey and the people that is the real scandal." Could the candidate then tell us how he will join with us to work towards gaining the trust and respect of those who have been abused?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

There are not many issues which affect the reputation of Jersey, and the Deputy is of course right, that the reputation of Jersey was adversely affected at that time by what I think I described in 2008 as the remorseless denigration of the Island and its institutions. The fact that one can condemn that remorseless denigration while at the same time condemning child abuse, whether it is institutional or not, does not seem to me to be in point. The other issues to which the Deputy has referred I think are long-buried in the distant past and I do not wish to respond to those.

7. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :

The Senator has told us that during the past 2 years he has acquired new skills. He then referred to the skill of diplomacy. Will he tell us what other skills he has acquired and give us an example of how they have been beneficial during his role?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

I do not know that it is possible to describe in any detail new skills that I may or may not have acquired. I have tried to acquire some of the skills of diplomacy and deployed them on the occasions when it has been necessary. Diplomacy involves, as I said in my opening remarks, a balance of assertiveness and tact. I spoke to the French Ambassador recently as a result of the designation of the Island as an unco-operative territory by the Government of France, and it is in the public domain that I expressed in fairly strong terms my disappointment that the French Government had not sought fit to consult with the Government of Jersey before taking this aggressive step. I believe that the conversation that I had with the French Ambassador was appropriate in the context of the matters that I have been speaking about.

8. Connétable S.W. Pallet of St. Brelade :

In light of the current visit of the Lord Chancellor to the Island, what will the Assistant Minister do to ensure that the Island is represented fairly and strongly internationally by the U.K. Government as a Crown Dependency, and does he feel the Island has been treated fairly by the French in relation to the threat of blacklisting early next year and if not, what he intends to do to minimise that risk?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

There seem to be 2 questions there. I do think that the French Government has acted unfairly towards Jersey in the designation of the Island as a non-co-operative jurisdiction and that is going to be the subject of considerable discussions, both at Ministerial and official level in the days and weeks ahead.

[10:00]

There is a meeting with the French Ambassador on Thursday to be attended by the Minister for External Relations, whoever he may be, and there will subsequently be discussions between officials to see whether the differences that have arisen between the competent authorities of the 2 countries can be bridged. I hope that they can but, as Members will appreciate, politics comes into these equations to a certain extent. We have, as I said in my opening remarks, few levers to pull and it will be important, I think, for the Island to secure the assistance of the United Kingdom Government, which is the sovereign power, and which has a duty constitutionally to protect us in these kinds of matters. I do not think I can say any more than that. The Minister of Justice, who I think is probably poised to leave the Island as we speak, has been asked to do whatever he can to ensure that the full weight of the United Kingdom Government is behind us in our negotiations with the French Government.

9. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs mentioned that he is following the policy set by the Council of Ministers. Does he not believe though that this House should determine what the external relationship should be for Jersey and we should have a debate on these issues to determine what the policy is rather than just a few Ministers behind closed doors?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

One of the advantages of the creation of the post of a Minister for External Affairs is that Members will be able to question the Minister in future on any issue arising out of the conduct of the Island's external affairs and so the matter will be brought much more into the public domain than it has been in the past. So far as the common policy is concerned, I think that goes to the question of what kind of Government we have. If we have Ministerial government, Ministers must set that policy. That is the provision in the law and that is what has happened so far.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Supplementary, Sir?

The Deputy Bailiff :

No, Deputy , there are other Members. You can come back later on if needed.

10. Senator L.J. Farnham :

It is looking likely that in 2017 the U.K. will hold a referendum on their membership of the E.U. Should, as a result of that referendum, the U.K. withdraw  from the E.U. what would be the ramifications for Jersey?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

If there is a referendum in the United Kingdom in 2017 and if the decision of the people of the United Kingdom is to withdraw from the European Union, one of the consequences will be that the Treaty of Accession of 1971 to the European Economic Communities will fall and with it will fall Protocol 3 and our existing relationship with the European Union. In those circumstances it will be for the Island, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man, to see what can be done to negotiate a new relationship with the European Union. There are many imponderables in that respect and a great deal of work is being done by officials in order to try to bring light to these difficult questions. But there are so many uncertainties that it is very difficult to make any positive plan at this stage for what the Island would do in those circumstances.

11. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence

I have seen the candidate in action and I consider him to be eminently qualified for the post. However, is there not a risk by raising the risks and possibilities we have been referring to and the issues concerning the Island's constitutional position, even as recently as in the last few days, that we could be seen to be crossing over from being prepared to be independent to seeking independence? What will the candidate be doing to ensure that there is absolutely no danger of that very important message being mixed-up?

Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The Deputy makes a fair point. I think that all one can do is to reiterate what the Government of Jersey's policy is and what we are doing. The difficulty of not talking about these issues is that one gives the impression to the public that one is not concerned about these issues, and it seems to me that they are matters, particularly the matter raised by Senator Farnham raised a few moments ago, about which people ought to be thinking. All intelligent people ought to be concerned about our position in relation to Europe if the United Kingdom pulls out of Europe in 2017. There may or may not be consequences so far as sovereignty is concerned, it is impossible to tell, but I do not think that any purpose is served by pretending that these problems do not exist.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you, Senator. Can I now invite Senator Bailhache to withdraw from the Chamber and Deputy Baudains be invited to come in. While you catch your breath, Deputy , I was just going to remind you that a bell will sound after 9 minutes, which is your warning, and the final bell will sound at 10, and there will be no slippage past the second bell. So when you are ready the Greffier will start the clock.

Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John :

Sir, was it not 20 minutes on the previous speaker? The Deputy Bailiff :

Twenty minutes for questions, 10 minutes for speaking.

2. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

I thought it was important for this particular position that we had an election because the public complain about Constables, some of whom walk into an office without facing an election but here, in my view, we have a situation which could potentially be more serious. I have no idea whether Senator Bailhache is the right person for the job, so I am not sure. But when our Foreign Minister, or whatever name we prefer to use, was an Assistant to the Chief Minister basically he had to do what the Chief Minister wished him to do. If that was not carried out then the Chief Minister could replace him. But now, having created the new position of Minister for External Relations, we have a completely different ballgame and this is what has concerned me because with a Minister being corporation sole and the Chief Minister not having any ability to force any of his Ministers to do

anything, he does not have the ability to hire or fire, so he is only there for the nuclear option of asking the States to remove any particular Minister which does not appear to be doing the Council's will. That is a nuclear option which is simply never going to happen because it would reflect badly on the Chief Minister. What I am concerned about in this situation, to my mind, there is a very real danger we could end up with the Chief Minister wanting a certain foreign policy and the Minister for External Relations doing something else.  It would be extremely damaging for Jersey. So in my view the way we mitigate that is to get the candidates to tell us with their speeches and questions that follow what policies they intend to follow. That way we, as an Assembly, can then hold them to account later because without that election the possibility of doing that simply evaporates. The title "Minister for External Relations", as listed on the Order Paper, sounds to me a little too much like the Council of Foreign Relations, a rather shady organisation. But in his email last night the Chief Minister referred to the title as Minister for External Affairs, and I am not sure that sounds much better. Presumably somebody knows the correct title. The post is only for a year because after the next election all the posts will be up for election again and by which time hopefully, if this Assembly agrees, the Chief Minister will have the ability at least to fire if not hire, and therefore have some control over his fellow Ministers. At the moment we do not have that and that concerns me because the ability to fire an underperforming Minister does not exist. During the one-year duration of this post, if elected I would ensure that there was only one foreign policy, that of the Council of Ministers via the Chief Minister. In other words I would be acting as an Assistant Minister. I would be carrying out the wishes of the Chief Minister so there would only one be foreign policy. I would not be developing policy of my own but carrying out the Council's wishes. So in conclusion, I would say that if any Member has any questions on policy I suggest he or she puts them down to the Chief Minister.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you very much. The time for questions now opens. Deputy Le Hérissier.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if the candidate could outline to the House what advice he will be giving to the Chief Minister in respect of pursuing independence for Jersey.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

With regard to the question of independence, I, to a certain degree, follow the thinking of Senator Bailhache . We simply could not survive as an independent state. I do not believe we could even do that in conjunction with the other Channel Islands. We have never historically been able to get sufficiently close to them to do that. But I think we do have to have options so that we are not caught out in this rapidly changing world. I cannot see it happening but if the United Kingdom went into the Euro I do not think it would benefit us to do so, but we need to have an alternative policy which I know has been worked on in the past few years, so that we are not caught out without having done our research.

[10:15]

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As the States of Jersey has never debated our external relations, we have never had a debate about where we should be going. Should it be left to the Council of Ministers to determine what the future of this Island is and the policies they should pursue? Does the candidate believe that the States of Jersey should at least debate these issues and try to come to an agreed way forward and then the Council of Ministers should pursue that agreed way forward?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I can completely agree with the Deputy . It does seem to be a somewhat less than a grey area. It is somewhat of a vacuum that we are not quite sure what is going on until we receive a notification from the Chief Minister that we are doing this or we are doing that, but it has not been debated in this Assembly. I do agree with the Deputy that what we should do is debate the basics of a foreign policy for the Council of Ministers and obviously the Minister for External Relations to follow.

3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

Senator Bailhache told the Assembly that he has acquired the skill of diplomacy during his 2 years as Assistant Minister. Does the Deputy believe that it is a necessary skill for this post and can he give an example of his own diplomatic ability? [Laughter]

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I am trying to think of what the previous Chief Minister used to say when anybody accused him of having potentially misled the House. People say: "Give me an example", and of course you can never think of one in the timeframe available. I consider that I am a diplomatic person. I try to understand the subject before I act. I do not act in haste. Referring to the candidate who has spoken before me, I appreciate that he has a fine mind but I am not always comfortable with the way that he goes about things. To be perfectly blunt, I would have thought the ideal candidate for the job would have been Senator Ozouf . I have heard nothing but good reports about him, but of course he is not standing for the post because he is already occupied.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Given the global dimension of the laws which we are passing, many of which derive from United Nations committees - the fishing quotas is one that springs to mind - can the negotiation of relations with the E.U. and the U.K. really be considered as anything other than window-dressing?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

How long have I got? I think it is 20 minutes I am limited to. I am very concerned about the way that the E.U. is going. I am very concerned at the way that it now overrides national law and national sovereignty but of course, on the other hand, we all have to work together. We might say that we do not like the E.U. telling us to do this or telling us to do that and then of course when we want to export our produce or financial services: "I am sorry the door is closed." So there has to be compromise, there has to be a policy that we are both comfortable with because otherwise we simply would not be able to trade. It is not an ideal situation but you have to achieve the best situation that you can for the Island, the same as we did when we entered into Protocol 3 in the first place.

5. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

This is the same question from me to all candidates which is, can the candidate explain if he were successful what his top 3 priorities would be and what he would do for Jersey?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Quite simple, in referring back to my opening speech. My first priority would be to be advised by the Chief Minister what policy he wanted me to pursue. The second would be to listen again and the third would be to take note of what he said in the first place.

6. Senator L.J. Farnham :

Should the U.K. have a referendum in 2017, and as a consequent of that decide to withdraw their membership of the E.U., does the candidate have an understanding of what the consequences for the Island could be?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

The consequences for the Island would obviously be quite profound and we would then be no longer in negotiation with the E.U. We would be working mainly to the United Kingdom because the United Kingdom would be the organisation that is sorting out new trade partners or existing trade partners in Europe. Whether they were still prepared to trade under existing circumstances or new circumstances there would be an incredible amount of debate going on but mainly through the U.K. rather than directly with the E.U.

The Deputy Bailiff :

No other questions for the Deputy ? Deputy Higgins.

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The same question I asked Senator Bailhache . Jersey's reputation has been sullied by the child abuse scandal and by the time it has taken for the Island to come to terms with it and have a Committee of Inquiry. What would you tell people outside about Jersey and its way of dealing with problems such as that because it is reputational, it is not just the economy, it is everything that happens in Jersey that the Minister for External Affairs will have to deal with. What will you tell them about how the Island handles things such as child abuse?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I know child abuse is very close to certain people's hearts and so it should be. I am not satisfied today that we - moving away from abuse – are looking after children as well as we should be even today. Regarding the historic child abuse, there are basically 2 sides to this. There has been over- exaggeration by national press but we have failed ourselves and the best way to approach such a difficulty is with honest answers. What happened? What went wrong? Because when you tell the truth you do not have any difficulty remembering what you said last time.

8. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

It is said that small states or small jurisdictions have no real powers and when the elephant rolls over, the insects underneath the elephant get crushed. How would the candidate ensure that he punched or that he ensured that the Island punched above its weight in negotiations where it is often big-powers that rule the roost?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

The Deputy raises an interesting question. I have always been slightly wary of the position that Jersey has taken over the last few years of trying to be a major-player on the world stage when clearly we are not. I mean we sign these bilateral agreements, but what happens if the other party does not honour them? Where is our fleet to go and attack them? We just roll over. There is nothing we can do about it. I think Guernsey would be a better example to follow. You get on quietly with your work and do not put your head above the parapet quite so much. That way you get the work done but you get less problems sent your way. I think we need a slight variation in the way we operate. I am sure we are creating quite a lot of problems for ourselves that would not otherwise exist.

9. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I think it is fair to say that within the Council of Ministers, not just the current one, there is always a mentality-of-group think, in not facing criticism but rather battening down the hatches. How would the candidate approach severe criticism, whether it be on child-protection failings or tax issues? How would the candidate approach that? Would he engage with people or would he just say: "No, everything is rosy in the garden"?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Quite a difficult question because it highlights the question that the Constable raised earlier of diplomacy. I am the sort of person that wants the truth. That is why I get so frustrated in this Assembly at times trying to find out what is going on. I follow the old adage that you never ask a question until you know the answer. But trying to get the answer is sometimes not so easy. But the point is, yes, you can huff and puff, you can criticise people, you can take it to another level if you really feel that it needs it, but all the time you have to consider is whether that is in the Island's best interest? I am not a person who likes to back away if I am in the right. Sometimes unfortunately it is the best thing to do.

10. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Protocol 3, we have discussed it briefly but there are so many unknown variables out there at the moment. We know there is the Scott ish independence. We know there is the possibility of a referendum in the U.K. We also know the U.K. would like to renegotiate its terms with Europe. All of which will have an impact on Jersey. What do you see as the biggest threat to Jersey from these negotiations?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Protocol 3 is clearly - how can one put it? It is becoming out of date. It no longer applies properly to our present situation. But also I think one has to appreciate that any renegotiation of Protocol 3 would not be to our advantage. We would lose far more than we would gain so I think it comes down to the fact that although we are not happy with it, I know some people complain that their passport has a stamp in it which makes them essentially, they think, a second-class citizen in European countries although in reality it does not seem to apply. Yes, we could probably get that removed with great expense in other areas. We have to tread very carefully.

11. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

If successful, how would the candidate as Minister for External Affairs argue the case for Jersey being environmentally-friendly when, as we know, we have paid well over-the-odds for a redundant piece of technology at the Energy from Waste plant? How would he put it across that we do care about the environment and we will play a part, however small?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I think we already play a part. For example, I know at the present time, due to the failure of one of our cables to France, we are burning a lot of oil to generate electricity, but normally we import a vast majority of our electricity from France which, is in the main, nuclear-powered. Whichever fuel you use there is an effect on the environment. I mean people may say: "Well, nuclear fuel, there is no carbon dioxide rated, is that not wonderful?" But you only have to look at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and the plant in Japan to see that that is not always the case. Where do you store the waste? It's dangerous to mankind for thousands of years. My view is, and I do not think it has been properly addressed, it is an internal issue, and that is we have created a need to commute. It is quite ridiculous to have .. I mean we have just seen it with the problem at Mount Bingham and the traffic. But those are people going to work. People in the east of the Island working in town. People in the west of the Island working in town. This should be, I believe, an issue not only for this Assembly but chiefly for the Environment Department and the Minister for Planning and Environment. Why are we not building offices in the west of the Island so that people do not have to drive into St. Helier to go to work? It will alleviate the traffic. It is no good hoping that people will leave their car behind and walk and cycle. Some will. But it is not convenient for everybody. I remember somebody have a go at me in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) many years ago for not using my bicycle to go to town but I pointed out that if I stood at the bus stop with an outboard- engine in one hand and ticket in the other they would not let me on the bus. If I put 40 gallons of diesel on my bicycle I am sure it would collapse. There are times you just cannot do it. But you have to do as much as you can carefully and responsibly. There is no silver bullet there.

[10:30]

12. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Renegotiating Protocol 3; the candidate commented that we would lose more than we would gain. Would the candidate care to describe what we would lose or gain? Would he be prepared to expand on that comment?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

There are many areas but the one that would worry me the most would be the ability to control immigration, which, as I understand it, we have the ability to do so at the moment, providing we treat everybody equally. I am looking at the problems in the United Kingdom and I would not wish those on Jersey. There are numerous other issues, but I think that would be the chief one.

13. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

I apologise if the candidate has answered this but there is no audio in the restroom. He touched briefly on independence and I think what he was saying was we needed to be prepared. But does he believe that Jersey could survive as an independent nation and if so how would that affect his approach to doing the job of Minister for External Affairs?

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I thought I had explained that. Sorry, if I did not make myself clear. I do not believe Jersey could survive independently at all. I put it in the no-chance bracket. Together with the other Islands we might but I think it would be very risky. We would have no defence requirements. We rely on the United Kingdom for an awful lot of things. If we have emergencies. I mean in the last resort if there was a lot of upheaval and rebellion in the Island we could not handle that ourselves, we would have to call in the United Kingdom to bring in people to help us. The same if there was aggression from outside. Unlikely, but we would have no ability to respond to it and when other countries know that you have no ability to respond, you are weakened. As I touched on in another question, we have bilateral agreements, we have all sorts of agreements with other countries. Providing there is goodwill on both sides that is fine. But when you have got somebody, and I am not going to name the countries involved, who are not prepared to co-operate then how do we enforce that? At the moment we have an ally in the United Kingdom. We send most of our children to university. We rely on their hospitals and all this sort of thing. We can have service-level agreements with them, but we need a fall-back position, but it is somewhere I would hope we did not have to go.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are there any questions? Very well, Deputy Baudains, you seem to be forgiven of your last minute of question time. Can I ask you please to withdraw from the Chamber, and we will ask Deputy Tadier to return? It would be very helpful if a few more Members returned to the Chamber. We are on 26 Members at present. Deputy , while you get your breath back, I am just reminding you, as I did earlier candidates, you are entitled to take the 10 minutes. The bell will sound as a warning after 9 minutes, if you are still speaking, and the second bell at 10, and there is no give-way time, so when the second bell goes, you sit down.

3. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

This may well be the last contested election we have for any Minister, depending on what changes we put through and whether we adopt the Machinery of Government's recommendations, which is also a move from certain areas, to have non-contested elections but simply appointments for Ministers. We are not here to talk about that today, but I think it is important whenever there is a position available, whenever there is a duplicity or a multiplicity of views, that those are expressed, irrespective of who ends up winning the post. That really explains my candidacy today for this position. What is the purpose of the role for Minister for External Relations? It is a relatively new role, although it has been going for a while under a different name. It will be the first post of its kind. Is it simply to go abroad and sell the finance industry? If so, why do we have a very smooth and well-branded Jersey Finance and its head, as well as countless others in whose financial interest it is to keep the machine ticking? Radical as it may sound, I think the Minister for External Relations needs to be visibly separate from the interests of such powerful lobbyists so as to retain credible objectivity. I can see one smirk over there; it is better than a scowl. My job would be to make a firmer challenge to the industry to make sure that tough questions are asked and that we are not fobbed off. Two examples: we have heard of this "sniff" test. This is the type of meaningless jargon that we are given as an answer when we are asked about what mechanisms we have in place as a government to guard against the kind of business which may be perfectly legal - and we saw that in the case of Jimmy Carr - which we have coming to the Island, which Ministers have admitted causes reputational damage to the Island. I would make sure that we have a written statement of exactly what kind of business as a Government we think it is acceptable for the industry to be accepting, and this should be available for all to see, which is in line with a move to greater transparency. T.I.EA.s (Tax Information Exchange Agreement) we are just about to sign with Switzerland; that marks our 32nd information exchange agreement. But what happened with France? We are told that it is critical and highly significant that France put Jersey's finance industry on the blacklist, yet over a month later we still do not have the answers. Why not? We were fobbed off 2 weeks ago, by being told that we cannot give the information unless we speak to France. Very basic information about how many T.I.E.A.s had been signed. I would make sure that we have a more open approach with our own Members when dealing with these things. I would also be more radical; I would move Jersey as the first jurisdiction towards automatic information exchange, because we know T.I.E.A.s in their current form are of limited value. If you have to know the information you want before you can ask for it, it does seem to defeat the object slightly. It may be that some might see that as a risky strategy, but I say it gives Jersey first-mover advantage in the international community. It acknowledges the challenge that global finance is facing, that tax as a commodity is no longer accepted by global citizens, and that as a jurisdiction which seeks to be transparent and progressive, we need to be making the first moves, leading the rest of the world, which ultimately will give us the advantage. This does not mean we should not be robust with our foreign counterparts. There is a lot of hypocrisy in the international community over tax and tax havens, or perceived tax havens. The U.K., France, Europe in general, and the U.S.A. (United States of America) all have their own tax havens, off-shore or on-shore jurisdictions which they are all too willing to keep, while at the same time having to speak with a so-called forked tongue, if you like. I think we should seriously address this, find out what the international moves are, and we should all work in unison on this. Part of the solution, not part of the problem,

is the pithy expression that we are told, which is pedalled by some of our local propagandists. My alternative would be: "My brother's problem is also my problem." If something affects world citizens, then it affects all of us. Similarly, we were told only 2 weeks ago that homophobia is outdated and is no longer acceptable in our community. I also believe that countries which practice homophobia, sexism towards women and particularly the death penalty, should not be unchallenged. Although one has to be diplomatically sensitive, I would make a point when going abroad, when dealing with such Ministers who hold such views, who have outdated and human rights non-compliance, death penalties, et cetera, simply do not shake their hand. We will not tolerate it in our own Assembly, we should not tolerate it in the international community. Party conferences, yes, of course we should attend. We should do so, and in an official capacity; we should be invited, not pay to have a little stall in the corner selling some Jersey merchandise. We should have direct lines of conversation open with Ministerial counterparts on all sorts of subjects to do with health, the environment, et cetera, so that all of our Ministers can be involved and really punching to our weight, but across the spectrum, not limited to selling one part of our industry. It may sound counterintuitive, but I would use my time sorting out Jersey's problems internally because as an island we are not simply, as some would have us believe, a faceless business that caters for super-wealthy who do not live here. We also have an Island community which sadly too often comes second in the consideration of our priorities. We talk about reputational damage to the Island. I say that when we have 13,000 people in a very small, 100,000 population, and if we consider that many of those are not eligible for benefit or for housing, 13,000 of those live in States Trust housing. We have others who need subsidies to live in private sector. Why is this, in a wealthy island? We have a derelict swimming pool at Fort Regent, which is a testament to government procrastination and ineptitude, when it could be a jewel in the crown that would be used by tourists, business people and locals alike. Would that not be great for our international image? Healthcare; how does any Minister travel overseas to sell Jersey when we have thousands of people back home who cannot afford to visit the doctor when they are ill, or the dentist when they have a toothache? We have bus drivers, nurses, teachers, on the brink of strike-action; with morale in the public sector at an all-time low. How do we, on the one hand, have senior Ministers actively speak against the need for a committee of child abuse, even though it is a big problem being faced by many countries, but on the other hand talking about reputational damage to our Island? How do we shake the hand of the Speaker of the Commons and talk to international diplomats, when we have not even implemented a separation of powers in Jersey, which is long overdue, and which we know causes eyebrows to be raised at the highest possible level? But I think there is a positive way forward for Jersey; we need to concentrate on greater cultural diplomacy. I would like to see a multi-purpose cultural centre, perhaps akin to the Barbican in London, built in Jersey, which would be of use both locally and when receiving tourists, business people and also foreign diplomats. Not a national gallery, but a world-class and unique arts centre that will bring others to Jersey. Just as an aside, I like to, when I go abroad, compare and find the best of travelling, and the Venice Biennale I certainly recommend. Something akin to that could be done in Jersey, which would bring the international community here, to celebrate local and international arts. It is something we do well already, it has to be said, both in the Parishes, and I know St. Helier in particular puts on some great events which probably would not happen if it was

solely left to the States of Jersey to do; we must encourage all that cultural activity in Jersey. [10:45]

We hear a lot about reputational damage, as I said, but I pose the question: which is more damaging and to whom? Simply being honest or trying to constantly cover up? Build on our cultural and economic links with France is something we must do. We already do it fairly well, to a certain extent. We know we have the twinning; it works very well. But I think we can go one step further. I will fight for more funding for tourism, for culture and for leisure, for sustained support of involvement of the Parishes in doing this, because I think that is the natural way, certainly for working with France. I heard it said that the French may try and blacklist our finance industry, but they will never blacklist our beaches. I think there is something true to be taken here. Whatever the future holds for the Island, I think that we have a strong future, but I do not think it necessarily lies where it always has done. As we know, historically, things change. We need somebody, preferably who is younger, who does not have a particular axe to grind, who is not part of the ancien regime and who will be able to go away. I also favour more French-speaking, a bilingual school, for example. I would insist that all of the Ministers at least try and learn some Chinese and Arabic in the next few years, because we are going to be having to do greater business and cultural links with those areas.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you very much. We now have 20 minutes of questions, starting now. Deputy Le Hérissier?

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder if the candidate could outline the circumstances in which he feels Jersey should push for independence?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think in the instance that we overnight perhaps go mad and lose our minds, then we should go for independence. I did read one of the first documents before I came into politics, the one that was commissioned and chaired by one of the candidates, and quite clearly it was a worthwhile piece of work, but after reading that, one was left with the very distinct impression that it is not at all feasible, for various reasons.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Although the candidate mentioned the child abuse, Jersey's reputation has been sullied worldwide because of the child abuse scandal and the Island's response to it. How do you think that the candidate could try to repair that damage in the world forum?

Deputy M. Tadier :

The Deputy will know my own views on this. It is an area that I have obviously put a lot of work into. I think the international community is aware that these kinds of things happen everywhere and it is not the fact that it has happened - because we are all human - it is very much the response that one has to it, and I do not think we responded universally in the correct way. I think simply by being honest, showing what we have done, by showing that we have now pursued a committee of inquiry that will to all intents and purposes be robust, I think that is all one can do, and one must not try to hide one's inadequacies in certain areas; you have to show that you are human but also constantly sell the good points of Jersey.

3. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

The candidate in his speech made quite clear that he does not see this role as just being a Minister for the finance industry. Given that perhaps his opinion would be in a minority among the Council of Ministers, how would he resist any moves to pressure him into being just a promoter, if you like, for the finance industry, and how would he put across those other things about where we do protect children, that we do have a good tourist industry, or we could have? How would he stick to his guns, as it were?

Deputy M. Tadier :

As things currently stand, Ministers are appointed by this Assembly. There is no collective responsibility in the Council of Ministers, there is no Whip, or at least there should not be, although it is moving towards that area. So any candidate who is appointed today will be done so on the basis of the Assembly's approbation and they will therefore have a mandate. Then, if those views do not fit with the Council of Ministers something has to give. But we are electing a Minister for External Relations today, and we do that on the basis of what we have heard and what we think about the candidates involved. Would I have the backbone to stand up to the Council of Ministers? Absolutely; and I think the Deputy has heard the contents of my speech and knows where I am coming from.

4. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Same question to all the candidates: could the candidate please explain, if successful, what his top 3 priorities would be and what he would do for Jersey? Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think I have said that. Cultural diplomacy is one of them; I think it is something which, as I have said, benefits us locally and internationally. Also, the key thing is that it adds to true diversification of the economy. The other one is to really sit down and hammer something out, going forward, for a long-term plan for where we see ourselves in terms of the finance industry, what is our position? We cannot simply always be reactive. I think we have to sit down and take the bull by the horns on that and do it in an honest way, notwithstanding the fact that I have said there is an element of hypocrisy in the international community. Those are probably the 2 big ones, but also caring for our own community; I think you cannot separate your international image from your local image.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

What advice will the candidate be giving his Chief Minister to progress moves towards automatic exchange of tax information and extension of the E.U. Savings Directive into the area of trusts?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think we have seen a classic example with the U.K. We had a stance which said: "No, we are certainly not going to do what the U.K. wants." They wanted information automatically exchanged, which we were willing to give to the U.S. Then we huffed and puffed, and then after a while they forced it upon us anyway. That is the reality of it. Why put ourselves in that situation? Why not be the leaders and say: "We recognise where this direction is going; if we have got nothing to hide (as will be used in the C.C.T.V. (Closed Circuit Television) debate, if it happens) why do you care about open and transparent exchange?" We should be leading that; we should be leading by example and not waiting for it to happen when we are at a disadvantage when it comes to tactics.

6. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Given the global dimension of the laws which we are passing, many of which derive from United Nations committees, can the negotiation of relations with the E.U. and United Kingdom really be considered as anything other than window-dressing?

Deputy M. Tadier :

That is a complex question; I do not think I can do that question justice. I think, clearly, we do have people that work in our departments who understand the complex nature of international relations. Certainly, from a Ministerial point of view, we would expect simply somebody who is adept, who can talk to a wide range of people, preferably in their own language, and certainly we have to be sensitive to the always-changing local sensibilities. That is all I can say for now.

7. Senator L.J. Farnham :

It is a distinct possibility that the U.K. will hold a referendum in 2017 on its membership of the E.U. If, as a result of that, the U.K. decide to withdraw from the E.U., does the candidate understand the ramifications that could arise for Jersey?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Does anybody understand the ramifications? I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who could tell you what the ramifications will be, because there is an element of unpredictability in that. Clearly, there would be ramifications, but Jersey is not currently a member of the E.U. It is not part of the U.K. either and I would presume that, first and foremost, our relationship with the U.K. would come first, although we have to be aware that we are part of a greater community.

8. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

The Council of Ministers' common policy on external relations lists 16 actions in support of the principles. Does the candidate feel able to sign up to deliver all of these, and if not, are there any particular ones that give him concern?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I do not have the list with me, but what I would simply say is that why is this the Council of Ministers' external relations policy? When has this ever come to the States? It was never lodged in the form of a proposition, it was a report, and we were told this is our external relations policy. That is not currently how things work. The Assembly is ultimately one that is sovereign in those terms. I would renegotiate many of those and reprioritise them.

9. The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In light of comments made this morning in regards to improving external relations with the French authorities, what would the candidate for the Minister for External Relations do to improve this relationship if he were to meet the French ambassador this Thursday and prevent Jersey being blacklisted by the French authorities, potentially avoiding huge damage to the local finance industry?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think what you do is you talk to the ambassador in frank terms and you say: "We want to know why we have been put on this blacklist." Frankly, I cannot believe that 4 or 5 weeks have passed since we were blacklisted - it is more than that - and that we do not know why that is the case. We must know why that is the case. If we do not know why that is the case, we should be sacking our External Relations Department and getting a new one employed, because clearly somebody knows more than they are letting on, and again, we are being hoodwinked. So, you simply use realpolitik. You sit down, you have a chat, and say: "What is going on here?" If there is something that Jersey needs to resolve, we resolve it. If it is something which we cannot resolve, then we deal with it as best we can.

10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

A similar question for the third candidate: Deputy Tadier has referred to cultural diplomacy and he has also told us that one has to be diplomatically sensitive, and indeed Senator Bailhache told the Assembly that he has acquired the skill of diplomacy during his 2 years as Assistant Minister. Does Deputy Tadier consider that he has the skill to undertake sensitive diplomacy, and if so, what example can he give us as evidence?

Deputy M. Tadier :

When one is in the Assembly, and I would consider that the candidate who may eventually win this may be a good example of that, one may be completely undiplomatic with one's colleagues in the Assembly when it comes to this quasi-party political system - and we know that the poll-topper who topped the polls said that the States spend all the time calling each other names and when he got elected spent most of his time calling other Members names - but I would refer the Constable to the various conferences which I know she has been on and which I have been on. Speak to those members of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, the A.P.F. (Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie), when we have had visiting dignitaries, and just ask them: "What did you think of Deputy Tadier when you were abroad?" and see what they say to you.

11. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

He has alluded to the issue, but could the candidate inform the House how he will reconcile a tension which will possibly fall apart between his own views on the role of finance and in some respects having to promote a finance industry which he seems to be very uncomfortable with?

Tension can be healthy. If I were to be elected today it would be because the Assembly wanted me to be elected, so there would already be an element of crisis within the Council of Ministers, which the Deputy knows full well. Nonetheless, I would not be selling the parts of the industry which I did not agree with or which were unsellable. You renegotiate the position and you re-prioritise the priorities that you would be having under your portfolio, and I think the Deputy understands what I mean.

12. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

It is quite ironic that we have had a visit from our U.K. Justice Secretary. The fact is that the U.K. have failed to intervene when they should in abuses of human rights and the justice system which I have to say I do not think is fit for a Third World country. How would the candidate go about interacting with the U.K. Justice Minister to ensure that they did fulfil their constitutional obligations with regard to law and order and good governance?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think it is always difficult when you are dealing with people at the top. Diplomacy can have 2 sides to it, and you can end up getting nowhere. I think what is important is that we remember in the U.K. that there are 650 M.P.s (Members of Parliament) in the House of Commons. I think it is important that any of us in this Assembly who have particular areas of concern, whether it be to do with the legal system, which certainly I do have concerns about access to justice in Jersey, we should be making direct contact with our counterparts in the U.K. because it is not simply those with titles who hold sway; it is those Back-Benchers who are dealing with constituents on a daily basis.  I think that is something that we need to start doing; also at party conferences, individually or collectively going to see them and hearing what their ideas are, how they run the show.

13. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The candidates have talked about the policy that they would pursue as the Minister for External Relations. As the States has never debated foreign policy and our stance, does he believe that it should be the preserve of the Council of Ministers or does he believe that everyone in this Assembly should have a right to say and determine the policy that we are going to pursue with the rest of the world?

[11:00]

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, it is the latter. I think the Assembly cannot expect to pass everything; we leave certain things as delegated responsibly to Ministers and their departments. But something as critical as external relations, which is a relatively new area of policy of Jersey, should be coming in the first instance to the Assembly for at least some debate, some amendment if necessary, so that we can have consensus. At the moment it is very difficult for the Council of Ministers to claim that this has the backing of the Assembly and the full credibility it might otherwise have, without first putting it to the Assembly for its endorsement and perhaps enhancement.

14. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Although it would only be part of his role, if the candidate is successful as Minister for External Relations, how would he deal with questions and challenges which would surely come as to why Jersey has not yet signed up to the U.N. (United Nations) Convention on the Rights of the Child, and would he give out the message: "Yes, I am going to push my Ministerial colleagues to do this" instead of procrastinating?

Indeed. Were it my decision, I would prioritise a Minister for Children before a Minister for External Relations, because that is the critical area. Indeed, last week when we had the same comment about homophobia being outdated, it was followed by the next priority which is to maintain and protect our children's interest in Jersey and I think that is the way we go. I think we have a very good team, I believe, at the Health and Social Services Department, when it comes to children, with good intent there. We have someone in there, to all intents, who is responsible for children and we should make that an official role. But we should be signing up to that, absolutely, and it is strange that we do not.

15. Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Travelling the world and meeting dignitaries, opposite numbers from many different places, does the candidate feel that the ability to speak a number of different languages is a help, can he tell us if he speaks any languages and perhaps he can demonstrate by speaking a few words in all of them? [Laughter]

Deputy M. Tadier :

I will not do that. I think it is important. I do not think it is the be-all and end-all. I think there are other skills that come with having lived abroad; when you learn another language, you learn another way of thinking and I think that is the key thing. If you become too inward-gazing, you forget that different cultures do things very differently, certainly if that is the case China is a stark example where the cultural sensibilities are perhaps even more important than the language-barrier. You need to know exactly what you are doing in those terms and that is why it is important. On my first day in office as the Minister for External Relations, I will be getting the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture in and saying: "Right, we need to do something about a foreign- languages policy which is updated and not simply based on those languages which were popular in the 1950s and 1960s", albeit that they are equally valid. We need to move in that direction culturally and for the jobs, because I think they are going that way in our Island.

16. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

Does the Deputy consider his interview with the Le Parisien newspaper to have been an example of his sensitive diplomacy? [Approbation]

Deputy M. Tadier :

With the right-wing tabloid Parisien French newspaper - which I do not think was particularly well-written as an article - but absolutely, it is not necessarily about sensitivity, it is about not being .. I do not know what the acceptable parliamentary-phrase is for somebody who does not .. what is the expression? Somebody who tells it as it is rather than necessarily pedalling .. yes, Deputy Pitman was asking for some French and taureau is the word for bull in French.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are there any further questions for the Deputy ? Very well, then I invite Senator Bailhache and Deputy Baudains to return to the Assembly before the ballot sheets are distributed.

Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

Sir, while we are just waiting for the candidates to come back up, can I just remind States Members that the Health and Social Services Department have got a presentation at lunchtime at the Société.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Sir, can I ask the Minister for Health and Social Services what the presentation is on? That would be helpful.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Minister, you are being asked what the presentation is about. The Deputy of Trinity :

Sorry, Sir. It is on general policy. I am looking at 4 particular areas - as I said 2 weeks ago - end of life, so there will be an End of Life presentation, there is also a very important launch of M.A.S.H. (Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hub) and so it is important that we have States Members on that, and updating on where we are with regulation of care. To end that presentation we will have an update on the bowel screening.