States Meeting Transcript - 8th October 2013

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 8th OCTOBER 2013

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................8

1. The Bailiff :..............................................................................8

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................8

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..................................................................8

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

3. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING DETAILED COURTS COSTS:..........................................8

2. CONNÉTABLE OF ST. MARY OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING THE NUMBER OF REQUESTS TO IMPLEMENT SPEED LIMITS:.........................................................9
3. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING CONDITIONS TO BE MET FOR THE INCINERATOR PRIOR TO ACCEPTANCE BY THE STATES:.10
4. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING RESURFACING OF RUE DES PRES:........................................................................10

5. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ROMANIAN NATIONALS IN JERSEY:..............................11
6. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE COST OF PROVIDING FREE DOCTORS VISITS: ...........................................................................................12

7. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE USE OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES IN JERSEY IN TERMS OF BUSINESS:..................................................12
8. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING PLANS TO BUILD A MULTI-PURPOSE ARTS CENTRE IN JERSEY:..........................................................13
9. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING AN ISLAND-WIDE SYSTEM FOR KERBSIDE RECYCLING COLLECTIONS:..........................................14

10. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE IMPACT OF POPULATION INCREASES ON JERSEY'S GVA:....................................................................15

11. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE FULL COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH ATTENDANCE AT BRITISH POLITICAL PARTY CONFERENCES IN 2013:..........................15

12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE JERSEY DENTAL FITNESS SCHEME:..........16

13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING REDUNDANCY PAY AND INCOME SUPPORT:......18

14. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF THE ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS ON INCOME SUPPORT FOR 2012 PRIOR TO THE BUDGET DEBATE: ................................................................................19

15. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE SALE OF SOCIAL RENTED HOUSING:......................20

16. DEPUTY T.A. VALLOIS OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE AMOUNTS RECEIVED IN TAXATION FOR THE YEARS 2011 AND 2012: ....................................................20

17. DEPUTY T.A. VALLOIS OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING SOCIAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTIONS RECEIVED IN 2011 AND 2012:......................................................................24

18. DEPUTY T.A. VALLOIS OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE CESSATION OF FREE ANTENATAL CARE:..................................................................25

19. DEPUTY J.H. YOUNG OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT OF THE ESPLANADE AND THE HOPKINS MASTERPLAN 2008:....................26

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................28

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :........................................................................28

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding updating the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme:.................................................................28

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29

2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the disposal ofasbestos:......................................................29

4.2.1 Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................30

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement : ...............................................30
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:...............................................30
3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................31
4. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................31
5. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................31

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the retirement age for Fire and Rescue Service staff: ......................................................32

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................32

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................33
3. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................33
   4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding access to the network by J.T:.....................................................................33

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................34

5. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the proposed access route into the building site of the new police station on the Green Street car park site:..............................................................35

1. Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John : ....................................................35
2. Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier:......................................................36
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................36
4. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................36
5. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................36
   6. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier of the Attorney General regarding evidence given under oath in the 2008 Royal Court Curtis Warr en abuse of process hearing and a written statement to the Operation Invicta investigation:........................................37

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................38
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38

7. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the creation of legislation addressing 'death by careless driving':........................39

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................39
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................39
3. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:...............................................................39

8. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding a review of the current operation of Standing Order 109(7):..................39

1. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................40
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................40
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................41

9. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding negotiations with staff in the pathology laboratory:.....................................41

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................42
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................42
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................42

4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade : ........................................................42
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................43
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................43
7. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................43
8. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................44
9. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................44
   10. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Housing regarding the continued sale of social rented housing:.........................................................................44

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................45
2. Deputy J.H. Young: .................................................................45
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
5. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................46

7. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................47

11. Deputy S. Pitman of St. Helier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the average waiting time for an appointment to see a psychologist:.....................47

1. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................47
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................47
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................47
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................48
5. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:...........................................................48
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................48
7. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................48
8. Deputy S.Pitman:...................................................................49

12. Deputy T.M. Pitman of the Chief Minister regarding the difference between a criminal' and regulatory' breach of the Data Protection (Jersey) Law 2005: .....................49

1. Deputy T.M. Pitman: .............................................................49
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................50
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................50
4. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................50

13. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding who brought disciplinary action against three officers involved in car bugging in the Curtis Warr en case: ....................................................................................51

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................51
2. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................52
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................52

14. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the publication of a report relating to public sector salaries over £100,000:.............................52
15. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the Jersey Electricity Company's cable project at Mount Bingham:....................53

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................53
2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour:............................................53
3. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade : ..................................................53
4. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ............................................................54

16. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the removal of infestations of Japanese Knotweed:.....................................54

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................55
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................55

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................55

5. The Minister for Treasury and Resources - statement regarding the Budget 2014...55

5.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):......................55

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................60
2. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................61
3. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................61
4. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade:.................................................61
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................62
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................62
7. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:........................................62
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................63

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Treasury and Resources...63

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................64 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):............................64
2. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................64
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................65

6.3.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................65

4. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: ..............................................................66
5. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : .............................................66
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................66

6.6.1 Deputy M. Tadier ......................................................................68

7. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................68
8. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. Saviour:....................................................68

7. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Chief Minister............................69

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................69 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................69
2. Deputy T.A. Vallois: ...................................................................70
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................70
4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................70
5. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...................................................................70
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................71
7. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................72
8. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................72
9. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................73

7.9.1 The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................73

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY........................73

8. The Minister for Health and Social Services - statement regarding the future hospital project....................................................................................73

8.1 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Health and Social Services):...........74

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................75
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................75
3. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................76
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................76
5. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................76
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................76
7. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................77
8. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................77

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................77 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:....................................................................77

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................78 PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................78

9. Draft Sea Fisheries (Licensing of Fishing Boats) (Amendment No. 6) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.97/2013)............................................................78

1. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur):.............................................................................78

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................78
2. Connétable M.J. Paddock of St. Ouen:..................................................78

3. The Connétable of St. Brelade:.........................................................79
4. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................79

2. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................80

1. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: .................................................................80
2. Deputy J.H. Young:....................................................................81
3. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................81
4. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................81

10. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013)..............................................................................85

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security): ........................85

2. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013) - reference to Scrutiny under Standing Order 79........................88

1. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................88
2. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:........................................................88
3. Deputy T.M.Pitman:................................................................89
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................90
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................91
6. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................91
7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................92
8. The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................92
9. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................92
10. Deputy S.Power:.................................................................93
11. The Connétable of St. Peter:......................................................93
12. Senator I.J. Gorst : ................................................................94
13. Senator L.J. Farnham : ............................................................95
14. Deputy S.Pitman:................................................................95
15. The Connétable of St. John : ......................................................95
16. Senator P.F. Routier:..............................................................96
17. Deputy J.H. Young: ..............................................................97
18. Deputy J.A. Martin: ..............................................................98

3. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013)............................................................................101

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains: ..........................................................101
2. The Deputy of Grouville : ..........................................................101
3. Deputy M. Tadier :..................................................................101
4. Deputy T.A. Vallois:...............................................................103
5. Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement : ..................................................104
6. Deputy T.M.Pitman:...............................................................105
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................106
8. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:...................................................107
9. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................107

4. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013) - Regulation 1............................................................112

10.4.1 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................112

5. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013) - Regulations 2 and 3.....................................................114

10.5.1 Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................114

6. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013) - Regulations 4, 5 and 6..................................................118

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................118
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................118
3. Senator L.J. Farnham : ..............................................................119
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: ................................................................119
5. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................120

7. Draft Income Support (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.101/2013) - Third Reading..........................................................121

1. Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:.......................................................121
2. The Connétable of St. John : ........................................................122
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................122

11. Jersey Law Commission Appointment of Commission (P.103/2013).................124

11.1 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister);...............................................124

12. States of Jersey Complaints Panel: appointment of members (P.106/2013)..........124

12.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon (Chairman of Privileges and Procedures Committee):............124

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:..........................................................125
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : .............................................................125
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:................................................................125

13. Jersey Mutual Insurance Society Incorporated: alteration of fundamental rules – petition (P.108/2013) ...................................................................125

13.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:.............................................................126

1. Senator I.J. Gorst : ..................................................................126
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ..........................................................127

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED................................................................127 Deputy J.M. Maçon:........................................................................127

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................127

[09:31]

The Roll was called and the Deputy Greffier led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Bailiff :

As Members know, since we last met, there has been an election for the Connétable of Grouville and there were 2 respected candidates. The successful candidate was Mr. John Le Maistre, who was sworn in on Friday and I am delighted to welcome him to his first Assembly. [Approbation]

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS The Bailiff :

I am able to inform Members that Deputy Power resigned as a member of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

We regret losing Deputy Power because he has been an invaluable member of the panel. He has done some excellent work, including chairing the report we did on the population policy and we shall be sorry to lose his service, but we do appreciate that it is very difficult to be in 2 places at once. As a result of that, I would ask the House if they would approve the fact that the maximum number on this particular Scrutiny Panel, the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel, should be reduced to 4, because if we remain at 5, we will have difficulty meeting the quorate requirements, so I ask the panel ..

The Bailiff :

It is a matter for you, Senator. Under Standing Orders, it is your decision. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

I am sorry, I thought we had to ask the States. Oh right, in that case .. The Bailiff :

No, I think it rests with you, but you are informing them that is your plan. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

I shall resort to benevolent dictatorship then.

The Bailiff :

Very well, thank you.

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY T.M. PITMAN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING DETAILED COURTS COSTS:

Question

Further to his answer on 24th September 2013 will the Chief Minister provide an estimate of the full court and case costs arising from the secret court proceedings against former Senator Stuart Syvret and show this in relation to the annual court budget for the period concerned?

Answer

As explained at the last States sitting on 24th September 2013, the costs incurred by the Data Protection Commissioner's Office on this case amounted to just over £387,000 for a 6-year period from  2008  to  September  2013. These  costs  were  met  from  the  court  and  case  costs  budget administered by the Judicial Greffe.

The only additional costs were £14,010 incurred by the Bailiff 's Chambers, which were also met from the court and case costs budget. The Judicial Greffe incurred no additional costs.

This means the total cost of the case to the court and case costs budget was £401,010.

Court and case costs budget ( Bailiff 's Chambers and Judicial Greffe) (£):

9 months Full year Full year Full year Full year Full year 2013 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 3,373,718 4,117,900 3,753,555 5,224,482 4,171,552 2,863,710

Total for 6 year period (£):

23,504,917

The departmental budgets for the Court Services and the Data Protection Commissioner's Office from 2012 – 2015 are publicly available on page 49 of the Medium Term Financial Plan.

Past expenditure can be found in the States of Jersey Financial Report and Accounts for each year. These documents are all available on www.gov.je

2. CONNÉTABLE  OF  ST.  MARY  OF  THE  MINISTER  FOR  TRANSPORT  AND TECHNICAL  SERVICES  REGARDING  THE  NUMBER  OF  REQUESTS  TO IMPLEMENT SPEED LIMITS:

Question

Will the Minister advise approximately how many requests, if any, to implement a speed limit which is not in accordance with the limits defined in the existing policy are received annually?

Will the Minister further advise whether he believes the current policy remains appropriate for the Island?

If the Minister does not consider the current policy appropriate (and further to the adoption by the Assembly on 3rd December 2008 of P.166/2008 Speed Limits: creation of a review working group' and the resulting work by the Department) would he outline his thoughts on a way forward?

Answer

Requests for consideration for lower speed limits are regularly received by my department, either from the Connétable s or from members of the general public. Over the last 18 months approximately 20 requests for changes on particular roads or areas of roads have been received, of which about half were consistent with current policy (and are being processed) and half were not, these will not be considered further until a review of the policy is carried out.

I do believe that the current policy is reasonable which is why I have agreed to relatively minor changes which are now being processed. It is apparent however from the many communications my Department receives that speed limits are a contentious issue and I therefore intend carrying out a public consultation on future speed limit policy before the end of the year. I will give consideration to the public's views and any potential changes to the policy can then be incorporated within the road safety strategy which I am currently progressing. I anticipate publishing the strategy white paper early in 2014.

3. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING CONDITIONS TO BEMET FOR THE INCINERATOR PRIOR TO ACCEPTANCE BY THE STATES:

Question

Further to his response to my question of 24th September 2013 regarding the Energy from Waste Plant, would the Minister agree to release to Members that part of the contract which relates to the conditions that have to be met before the incinerator is considered able to be accepted by the States from the contractor?

Answer

The plant was formally accepted at "Takeover" which was achieved on the 29th July 2011. Takeover is the point at which the plant is handed over from the contractor CSBC (Jersey) Limited to the purchaser, the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

There is a strong contract in place which enables officers to ensure that the plant is working to a high standard. This contract is based on the Institution of Chemical Engineers IChemE Red Book model form of contract. The IChemE Red Book is a public document and the Deputy is welcome to have a copy. The full contract is made up of The Agreement, The IChemE Red Book 4th Edition 2001, The Special Conditions, Specification and Schedules. The contract is subject to a Confidentiality clause which requires written consent from the Contractor to release contract documentation for purposes other than design, construction, operation or maintenance of the plant.

The Minister has asked CSBC (Jersey) Limited if they are happy to release relevant parts of the contract documentation to Members. CSBC (Jersey) Limited have advised that individual parts of the contract read in isolation are open to misinterpretation and thus are of little use. CSBC (Jersey) Ltd have also advised that it is against their company policy to release contract documentation into the public domain.

CSBC (Jersey) Limited's view is a standard industry position and it is very rare for large commercial contracts to be published in the public domain. The IChemE model form of contract is a widely used contract which successfully deals with the complex way in which purchaser and contractor divide the responsibility for creating new process plant.

4. DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING RESURFACING OF RUE DES PRES:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether the resurfacing work at Rue des Prés was considered to be sub- standard and, if so, would he indicate what he intends to do about it?

Despite his recent statement that future resurfacing would be of a higher quality, would he concede that the present resurfacing of Rue à Don is no better than Rue des Prés and, if so, what measures are in place to ensure the works are undertaken to an acceptable standard?

Answer

The resurfacing works on Rue des Prés are not considered to be sub-standard and fully meet the requirements of Transport and Technical Services' Specification for Highway Works.

The surfacing works that have been completed to date on Rue à Don have been carried out in accordance with the above Specification and are all fully compliant to date. Transport and Technical Services have a full time team on site to supervise the Contractor and to ensure he delivers all aspects of his work in accordance with the Specification.

5. DEPUTYM.TADIEROFST.BRELADEOF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING ROMANIAN NATIONALS IN JERSEY:

Question

1. How many Romanian nationals are there in Jersey and, if no exact figures are available, please explain why and what current estimates are?
2. Should a representative from the Romanian Embassy be invited to visit Jerseytodiscuss,inter alia, work, housing, discrimination and driving licence issues?
3. Is there currently a Romanian Consul in Jersey?
4. Are there any plans for such a post to be created and if so how would this be done?
5. Is any information from States departments published in Romanian and if not, why not?
6. Is the Chief Minister willing to take up the issue of Romanian driving licences not being recognised in Jersey and vice versa with the Romanian authorities?

Answer

1. In June 2013, there were 807 Romanians living and working in Jersey; 57% male and 43% female.
2. The Minister for External Relations has written to the Romanian Embassy requesting a meeting with the Ambassador. Atthat meeting it would beopportuneto discuss how we might further support the affairs and interests of those Romanians living in the Island.
3. No.
4. The appointment of a consul to any jurisdiction is a matter for each national government to decide.

As I have mentioned in part (b) of this question, the Minister for External Relations has sought a meeting with the Romanian Ambassador and it is likely that the matter of appointing an Honorary Consul for Romania accredited to Jersey, or possibly the Channel Islands, will be discussed.

5. There is no information from States departments published in Romanian. The publication of official documents in languages other than English, Polish and Portuguese is kept under review by my department's Communications Unit. To date there has not been an identified need to add this extra language.
6. As you know,at a meetingatthe Department for Transport in London last November, officials from the Transport and Technical Services Department asked representatives of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to approach all new EU/EEA  jurisdictions to recognise Jersey licences for mutual exchange. Since then officials from my department have been engaged with the Romanian Embassy on the possible reciprocal exchange of Jersey and Romanian driving licences. The matter is currently under consideration bythe Romanian authorities, who have said they are interested in reaching agreement on this issue.

6. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE COST OF PROVIDING FREE DOCTORS VISITS:

Question

Would the Minister provide an estimate for the additional cost of providing free doctors visits –

1. for all residents who meet the 5 year residential requirements; and,
2. for all over 65's who meet the 5 year residential test?

Answer

General Practitioners (GPs) operate as private businesses and the Health Insurance legislation does not require GPs to share their pricing model nor does it control the fees GPs levy on patients. The Health Insurance Fund (HIF) currently provides £20.28 in medical benefit to contribute towards the cost of each GP consultation. This is paid directly to GPs on receipt of a Medical Benefit claim.

In the time available to provide this written answer, some initial estimates have been made based on existing information held within the Department and the 2011 census. These suggest that, based on the existing system and details of charges currently paid directly by patients, the additional cost of free GP consultations for all individuals with at least five years residence could be between £9 million and £12 million per annum. In respect of those just aged over 65, the estimates are calculated as between £3.5 million and £4.5 million.

Changing the funding mechanism from a co-payment system to 100% public funding for people with 5+ years residency is likely to lead to changes in both patient behaviour and GP business models. For example, one might anticipate far fewer no-charge' and discounted visits coupled with an increase in requests for home visits. Therefore the estimates provided here are not likely to fully represent the actual costs to the HIF if the full cost of the fees levied by GPs were paid from the public purse.

7. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING THE USE OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES IN JERSEY IN TERMS OF BUSINESS:

Question

Will the Minister state which foreign languages are the most important for Jersey both currently and in the medium and longer term in terms of business?

What plans are there for co-ordination with the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture to make sure that a sufficient number of local school-leavers are sufficiently competent in these languages to meet current and future demands for these language skills for business and culture?

Answer

Businesses in Jersey increasingly work in a global market place with the majority of business transactions undertaken using the English language, except in the emerging BRIC markets and the Middle East. As business development, from Jersey, to these emerging markets represents a longer term investment, where opportunities or needs arise with regard to language these will be prioritised by States Departments in conjunction with private sector suppliers.

It is therefore currently believed that the most likely medium to longer term business language requirements include Mandarin (China) and Portuguese (Brazil).

In 2007 the Council of Ministers agreed to the establishment of a Skills Executive comprising the Ministers and Chief Officers for Economic Development, Education Sport and Culture and Social Security. The purpose of the Skills Executive was to give political leadership, determine policy priorities and provide strategic direction to an employer-led Skills Board charged with co- ordinating the work of three government departments in developing policy and strategy for enhancing skills – including languages - in the workforce and those about to enter it.

Skills Jersey Board activity to identify where the skills gaps are now and where industry feels it will be in the future, with the Board tasking officers from all three departments to work closely with industry representatives to develop strategies to better align the skills needs of businesses and aspirations of individuals.

Individuals who study languages at a higher level in Jersey have remained relatively and consistently low over the last 5 years with a slight dip in the 2013/2014 academic year.

Enhanced language skills are likely to become a key employability asset in terms of the future Jersey workforce and the States is seeking to promote languages alongside other higher level professional skills, through the recent launch of the Skills Accelerator' product. Under this EDD funded scheme, individuals – with the support of their employer – can access up to 75% of the costs of specialist training, with a financial cap of States support at £5,000. By taking advantage of a Skills Accelerator grant, businesses can identify those key individuals with both a business need and a languages capability and acquire the requisite private sector training required for them to learn those languages appropriate for future business development.

8. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE REGARDING  PLANS  TO  BUILD  A  MULTI-PURPOSE ARTS CENTRE IN JERSEY:

Question

What consideration, if any, has been given to building a multi-purpose Arts Centre in Jersey and, if none, why not?

If discussions have taken place, what potential sites have been identified, what costings and funding mechanisms are anticipated and is there support from the Department for such a project?

Answer

I can confirm that consideration is being given to the building of a multi-purpose Arts Centre in Jersey to address the shortcomings of the existing building in Phillips Street and the transfer of St. James to the Youth Service. This has been addressed in the context of a review of the current range of arts and cultural facilities in the Island, which has been carried out by a project group including representatives of the Department for Education, Sport and Culture, the Jersey Arts Trust, and the Jersey Arts Centre. The project group has consulted with cultural organisations, States departments, and other interested parties.

The final report of the project group was received by the ESC Ministerial Team in September, and this included a recommendation that consideration be given to a new Arts Centre.

The ESC Ministerial Team has agreed that further consideration should be given to this proposal, and has requested that funding should be set aside in the Long Term Capital Plan in 2016 to enable this facility to be developed. It is recognised, however, that there are many other demands on the forward capital programme, and that decisions will need to be taken by the Council of Ministers about which projects can be afforded within the total funds available. It may be that an alternative option, such as the refurbishment or redevelopment of the existing site, will need to be considered.

At this early stage a site for a new arts centre has not been identified, and would only be explored further if the project was approved as part of the Long Term Capital Plan.

9. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES REGARDING AN ISLAND-WIDE SYSTEM FOR KERBSIDE RECYCLING COLLECTIONS:

Question

Is the Minister committed to an Island-wide system of kerbside collection for recyclables; if not, why not and, if so, will he advise when such a system will be available?

Does the Minister accept that having 12 potential recycling schemes running parallel, all offering different services, is not as efficient as having one centralised system?

What does the Minister estimate a realistic cost would be for a centralised, Island wide system of kerb-side collection for recyclables?

Answer

Household kerbside recycling remains a core strategy for my department as it brings recycling directly into people's homes; making it easy to recycle and embedding recycling into everyday life. It has a fundamental part to play in changing behaviour so that the Island as a whole recognises our waste as a resource rather than just rubbish.

Since the Solid Waste Strategy was agreed by the States Assembly in 2005, my department has been working with the Comité des Connétable s to implement household kerbside recycling in each Parish. Unfortunately, as the decision to introduce kerbside recycling lies with each individual Parish, I am unable to advise when an Island-wide system will be available but I can reiterate to those Parishes that have not yet provided recycling collections to their residents that my department will provide support in designing, implementing, communicating and monitoring your Parish kerbside collection.

I will acknowledge that the complexity of introducing schemes on a Parish by Parish basis is not an efficient use of officer time within my department and that the differences in recycling collections across Parish boundaries can cause confusion, which only serves as a barrier to using the recycling collections. An Island-wide centralised recycling scheme may be a solution to overcome these failings but it is not an option my department has explored and it would require the support of the Comité des Connétable s if it's feasibility and cost are to be investigated.

My department is currently conducting a review of the Solid Waste Strategy (2005) which will be complete by the end of the year. This exercise will assess performance against the 2005 strategy and set out new waste  minimisation and recycling targets  for the next 5 years. Working  in partnership with the Comité des Connétable s will continue to be essential if we are to increase sustainable waste management practice on the Island, and so we will invite the Comité to hear our findings and discuss how our strategy can be achieved efficiently so that recycling becomes part of everyday Island life.

10. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE IMPACT OF POPULATION INCREASES ON JERSEY'S GVA:

Question

Will the Minister for Treasury and Resources provide Members with a much fuller explanation of the last paragraph on page 6 of the Report entitled: "Measuring Jersey's Economy: Gross Value Added (GVA) 2012"; explain the full effect on Jersey's economy at present and going forward if the population continues to increase and real-term GVA per capita decreases as a consequence and explain what policy measures, if any, he proposes to take to remedy this situation?

Answer

GVA per capita is the product of trends in GVA and the population but it is wrong to imply that there is a simple causal relationship between the two components. That is, higher population does not necessarily lead to lower GVA per capita and vice versa. Population in Jersey has increased every year between 2001 and 2012 but GVA has followed a much more varied cycle not least after the onset of the global financial crisis.

At times in recent years we have had periods when population, GVA and GVA per capita have increased (2005-2007) and periods of a weaker economy when population has increased but GVA and GVA per capita have actually fallen (2001-2004 and 2008-2012). It is important to remember that GVA trends since the onset of the global financial crisis in 2008 have been dramatically affected by the low interest rate environment which has led to large falls in financial services profitability and in particularly banking profitability. UK interest rate trends and their impact on the local economy bear no relationship to the level of population in Jersey.

While the underlying trends need careful interpretation the Council of Ministers have recognised the need to act and have a wide range of policies in place to improve the underlying performance of the economy. The States will lay the foundations now for future economic growth based on productivity improvements that will raise both GVA per person employed and per capita. This is being achieved in a number of ways and initially through short-term fiscal support for the economy to stimulate activity and boost employment.

In the medium term, the Economic Growth and Diversification Strategy (EGDS) will underpin economic growth and job creation policies through growing and diversifying finance, new enterprise, use of the Innovation Fund and more inward investment. In line with the EGDS, and the 2012 Strategic Plan, inward migration will only be permitted where it can be demonstrated that it will support high value activity and job creation. This will be further outlined in a population policy being developed for debate in the term of this current Council of Ministers.

At the same time the States will provide fiscal stability and certainty that will help growth flourish whilst also committing to essential investment in areas such as health, social housing and liquid waste. Supporting the economy and investing to improve our competitiveness now will mean Jersey is in the strongest position possible to improve productivity and our economic performance as the global economy recovers.

11. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE FULL COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH ATTENDANCE AT BRITISH POLITICAL PARTY CONFERENCES IN 2013:

Question

Will the Chief Minister provide Members with a detailed breakdown showing the costs, per individual, for Ministers and civil servants to attend the British political party conferences in 2013?

Would the Chief Minister further indicate the duration of each stay at each party conference, the hotel, flight and entertainment costs for each person who attended the conferences and whether any participants were accompanied by their spouses or partners?

Answer

Ministers attended all three party conferences where they were able to meet MPs (Members of Parliament), Lords, MEPs (Member of the European Parliament) and diplomatic contacts. They received a positive reaction and attendance formed an important aspect of on-going engagement with the United Kingdom government and opposition.

The cost of travel, accommodation and accreditation for those attending all three party conferences comprised a total of £20,228.

The cost of hosting an exhibition stand and a fringe event at the Conservative conference was £35,235. This ensured the opportunity to disseminate the results of the Capital Economics report demonstrating the value of Jersey to the UK to approximately 12,000 delegates attending the conference.

A breakdown of participants and the costs of attending each conference are provided below.

Individual Ministerial travel, accommodation and entertainment expenses will be provided to the States Assembly as part of the normal reporting process. No participants were accompanied by their spouses or partners.

Liberal Democrat conference

The Minister for External Relations, Treasury & Resources Minister and 2 officers attended the Liberal Democrat conference in Glasgow from 15 to 18 September. The costs for attending the conference came to £6,127.

This comprises accreditation (£2,740), accommodation (£2,145) and travel (£1,242). Labour Party conference

The Treasury & Resources Minister and 2 officers attended the Labour Party conference in Brighton from 22 to 25 September. The costs for attending the conference came to £5,055.

This comprises accreditation (£1,485), accommodation (£2,775) and travel (£795). Conservative Party conference

The Chief Minister, Treasury & Resources Minister and 3 officers attended the Conservative Party conference in Manchester from 29 to 2 October.

The costs for attending the conference came to £9,046.

This comprises accreditation (£1,650), accommodation (£5,660) and travel (£1,736).

12. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE JERSEY DENTAL FITNESS SCHEME:

Question

Will the Minister for Social Security inform Members what progress, if any, has been made in reviewing the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme and the Westfield Dental Scheme for over 65's in the light of the commitment to do so in response to SR.12/2010 (Review of Dental Services') and his own commitment, given to the Assembly on 6th December 2011 "I will undertake to ensure that 2 issues identified by the Scrutiny Panel review of dental health services will be prioritised within my departmental business plan for 2012" and " to review the provision of assistance with dental costs under both these schemes during 2012" and if none, will he state why?

Will he further state whether he intends to put funded measures to address these issues into his business plans for 2014, if necessary using some of the £13-million underspends his department has recently identified and, if not, why not?

Will he also state what actions, if any, he will take in 2014 in the area of access to primary health care under the objectives outlined in the M.T.F.P. (Medium-Term Financial Plan) 2013-2015 in key objectives 2 (iv) and 3 (vi)?

Answer

Since the statement made at the end of 2011, the Assembly has approved P.82/2012 - Health and Social Services: A new way forward, which endorsed the following action:

"(b) to request the Council of Ministers to co-ordinate the necessary steps by all relevant Ministers to bring forward for approval –

(ii) proposals to develop a new model of Primary Care (including General Medical Practitioners, Dentists, high street Optometrists and Pharmacists",

Whilst, as Minister for Social Security, I remain responsible for the provision of tax funded benefits to support dental costs to teenagers (Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme), those aged 65 and above (65+Westfield health scheme) and low income groups (Income Support special payments), any review or change to these benefits should now be considered in the context of the more general review of primary care that is taking place as part of P.82/2012.

However, I can confirm that the terms and conditions of the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme are currently being reviewed and as soon as this review is concluded I will announce the changes and lodge for approval by the States any consequential legislative amendment/s.

The departmental 2013 Business Plan includes the following two objectives:

"PR.21 Review access to Income Support services for older residents and implement operational changes as necessary."

PR.22 Prepare and seek approval for primary legislation in respect of Food Costs Bonus and Cold Weather Bonus, currently enacted through triennial regulations."

As part of these actions in respect of improving access to benefits available to older residents, access to the 65+ Westfield health scheme will also be reviewed.

Members will be aware that it is intended to allocate the anticipated underspend in the 2013 Social Security to the Long-Term Care Fund, allowing the new long-term care benefits to commence in July 2014, in advance of LTC contributions which will not be collected until 2015.

The Medium-Term Financial Plan includes the following:

Social Security Department key objective 2: Protect Islanders from the impacts of low income.

Social Security Department key objective 3: .Adequate income for old age, affordable for our children. Assist older Islander to maintain standards of living by means that are financially sustainable for future generations.

Both headings include the same sub-objective: (2(iv) and 3(vi)):

Health Service Reforms include support to low income groups and those with long term conditions to enable them to access health services, including primary care

As noted above, the Council of Ministers has been tasked with bringing forward proposals for sustainable Primary Care and the Social Security Department is supporting the delivery of this review. In particular, the Primary Care Review has been designed to include a specific piece of work in respect of access to primary care services for low-income groups.

13. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING REDUNDANCY PAY AND INCOME SUPPORT:

Question

Further to his response to a written question on 24th September 2013 when he stated that there are no situations where household income is treated as capital for Income Support purpose', will the Minister explain why, when I posed a similar question to one of his Income Support (IS) Officers, I was informed that Redundancy pay is treated as capital. Pay in Lieu of notice is treated as income'?

Will he state how severance pay' which, like redundancy pay,  is usually based on length of employment and can be defined as not the same as termination pay, which is given in place of the required notice of termination of employment' is treated for IS purposes?

Will he also state how many cases of loss of employment have come before IS Determining Officers where the employee's final payment has been categorized respectively as a redundancy', in lieu of notice' or severance' payment by the employer?

Notwithstanding his previous answer on guidelines for income/capital, will the Minister reveal those training guidelines or procedures for IS officers, whether technical or otherwise, which relate to the treatment of final payments for employees dismissed from their employment?

Answer

The Income Support system requires working age adults to support themselves through paid employment, whenever possible. Wages earned by an Income Support claimant are subject to a disregard of a total of 26% to ensure that any one receiving Income Support is better off if they are in employment.

Direct payments made by an employer to an employee who is claiming Income Support are treated as earned income against the Income Support claim.

The only exceptions to this are:

1. Payments made because employment has ended through redundancy - In this case the redundancy payment is treated as a capital receipt on the claim of the ex-employee
2. Payments by an employer for expenses wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred in the performance of the employment - payment is completely disregarded
3. Payments byan employer into an occupational pension scheme for an employee. - payment is completely disregarded

In a redundancy situation, the final payment to the employee is likely to be made up of a number of separate amounts. Those relating to unpaid wages, any outstanding holiday pay and payments made in lieu of notice are all treated as earnings. These are allocated to the Income Support claim to cover a period of time after the end of the employment, based on the normal weekly wage of the employee. The redundancy payment itself will be identified as a separate amount on the final payslip and will be exempt from ITIS (up to £50,000) and Social Security contributions.

Under Income Support, an employee is considered to be redundant by reference to the definition given within the Employment (Jersey) Law 2003. If employment is terminated in any other way, any final payment, regardless of how it is described by the employer, will be treated as earnings, and allocated to the Income Support claim in the normal way. The terms "severance payment" and "termination payment" are not used in the Employment (Jersey) Law.

It is not possible to produce statistics analysing the breakdown of payments made at the end of employment, other than on a case by case basis.

As stated in my previous response, Income Support staff use a variety of internal procedures and guidelines. These are technical documents which are not designed for public circulation. The distinction between whether a final payment is treated as income or capital for Income Support purposes has been set out in this written response.

14. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE PUBLICATION OF THE ANNUAL REPORT AND ACCOUNTS ON INCOME SUPPORT FOR 2012 PRIOR TO THE BUDGET DEBATE:

Question

Will the Minister inform Members whether the Social Security Department's Annual Ministerial Report and Accounts for 2012 and the 2012 Annual Report on Income Support will be made available to Members before the annual Budget debate, and notwithstanding the answer, will he explain why these reports take so long to be published in this or any other year?

Answer

Yes, I can confirm that the Social Security Department's Annual Ministerial Report and Accounts for 2012 and the 2012 Annual Report on Income Support will be published in October.

My department has made considerable progress in the publication of detailed information on benefits over the last two years. In 2011, a separate annual report was published on Income Support for the first time. This year, a single annual report has been prepared incorporating details of the Social Security Fund, the Social Security Reserve Fund, the Health Insurance Fund, Income Support, Back to Work and other tax funded benefits and services.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the officers who have worked extremely hard to prepare this new publication which represents a substantial improvement in the information that the Department is able to provide to States Members and the general public.

A document of this nature will always take time to prepare. Once drafted, the final version then requires Ministerial and Treasury signoffs, prior to submission to the Department's external auditors, PwC, and finally to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Social Security Annual Report for 2012 was approved by the Comptroller and Auditor General on 2 October, and will be printed and distributed to all States Members and other stakeholders in advance of the next States sitting.

15. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE SALE OF SOCIAL RENTED HOUSING:

Question

Will the Minister state why, in the face of the most recent numbers of applicants for 2 and 3 bed social-rented homes (490 and 291 respectively) he continues to advertise social-rented houses for sale at discounted prices, with the result that several of these properties remain empty despite there being many households living in overcrowded conditions?

Answer

There seems to be a notion that P.6/2007 deferred payment sales have had a negative effect on the amount of social housing available. This is not correct, in fact it is quite the opposite. All of the deferred payment sales have been to social housing tenants. Those tenants could not afford to buy in the private sector and so would have remained tenants. The sale of a home to them represents a tenure change and the impact on the social housing stock has been negligible. £31m has been generated from these sales, all of which has been reinvested in to the stock either to develop new homes or for major refurbishment projects.

Members will recall the Full Business Case (R.15) which supported P.33/2013 sets out that over 20 years some 330 homes will be sold to persons qualifying for affordable housing and specifically states that The sale of 330 properties includes 30 sales prior to the commencement of the new Housing Company on 1 July 2014. The proceeds from the sale of properties part fund the stock development and associated borrowing until repaid in year 16.'

Members will also be aware that the Strategic Housing Unit has now been established to look at Island-wide housing strategy. The Housing Department is not the only provider being required to meet the demand on the Affordable Housing Gateway, the Trusts must and will also play their part. It is the lack of new social housing supply overall that has been stifling the waiting list, not the comparatively small amount of sales.

As I say there has been a lack of new housing supply during the recent economic downturn. However, new rental sites are still being developed, notably at Langtry Gardens (80 units), Le Squez 2c (24 units), Lesquende Phase 1 (35 units) and 2-4 Journeaux Street (9 units). Additional developments which will start shortly include, the Former Le Coin site (23 units), Le Squez 3 & 4 (137 units) and and Lesquende Phase 2 (44 units). These developments contain the right mix of homes to meet the needs of current tenants needing to downsize and this will in turn allow existing homes to be utilised better and go a significant way to meeting the needs of those on the Affordable Housing Gateway. There is no room for complacency, more homes are required still and I look forward to debating the proposals in the Draft Island Plan Review in due course, which are essential if we are to meet the demand for social housing that is clearly demonstrated by the Affordable Housing Gateway waiting list and in the Statistics Unit's Jersey's Housing Assessment 2013-2015.

16. DEPUTY T.A. VALLOIS OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE AMOUNTS RECEIVED IN TAXATION FOR THE YEARS 2011 AND 2012:

Question

Would the Minister provide figures for the amount of taxation received from each area of the economy for the years 2011 and 2012?

Answer

Figures are provided below for (i) Company Income Tax and (ii) GST.

1. Company Income Tax

Sector 2011 2012 Financial Sector 53,339,000 59,275,000 Real Estate 11,942,000 12,238,000 Other Business Services 3,045,000 2,575,000 Transport and Communications 2,815,000 2,421,000 Construction and Quarrying 2,826,000 1,092,000 Hotels and Restaurants 1,106,000 714,000 Wholesale and Retail Distribution 751,000 538,000 Agriculture and Horticulture 373,000 358,000 Other Community, Social and Personal Services 88,000 59,000 Manufacturing 117,000 17,000 Health and Social 48,000 45,000 Total 76,450,000 79,332,000 Adjustment for accruals and year of assessment basis (1,470,000) 157,000 Corporate Income Tax 74,980,000 79,489,000

Notes to Income Tax figures:

The above analysis is only for corporate entities, It does not include partnerships or self- employed.

The industry classification is on a Taxes Office basis. This classification is in the process of being revised to bring it into line with the classification used by GST and other States Departments, in order to provide more consistent reporting.

The classification above is based on the primary activity of the Business, which may not be the main source of tax income (for example, many businesses receive rental income, which is taxed at 20%, whilst their primary income from a trade is taxed at 0%)

In order to be able to report on tax revenues by industry, information is only available based on year of assessment, rather than financial year. Year of Assessment 2011 is almost exclusively  recorded  in  Financial  year  2012,  and  Year  of  Assessment  2010  is  almost exclusively recorded in Financial year 2011.

There are therefore two primary reasons for differences between Year of Assessment basis and Financial Year basis - accrual adjustments and amendments to assessments relating to other years. The net impact of these is shown separately.

It is not possible to analyse Personal Income Tax by area of the economy as a significant element of personal income is unearned, and cannot therefore be allocated to an industry. The comparable figures to the company tax data above are:

Financial Year 2011 £335,818,000

Financial Year 2012 £353,993,000

2. GST

Sector

Retail trade excluding trade & repair of vehicles and motorcycles Wholesale trade, excluding trade and repair of vehicles and motorcycles Accommodation and food service activities

Construction

Electricity, gas, steam and air conditioning supply

Information and Communication

Trade and repair of vehicles and motorcycles

Professional, scientific and technical activities

Administrative and support service activities

Manufacturing

Real Estate activities

Arts, entertainment and recreation

Agriculture, forestry and fishing

Transport and Storage

Water supply, sewerage, waste management and remediation activities Financial and Insurance activities

Mining and Quarrying

Other service activities

Education

Human health and social work activities

ISE Status

Activities  of  households  as  employers;  undifferentiated  goods  and services

DIY House builders

Charity

Public administration and defence; compulsory social security Adjustment for accruals and return basis

Total Domestic GST

Import GST

International Service Entity (ISE) Fees - Finance Sector Total GST

2011 2012 18,469,000  23,284,000 7,192,000  8,500,000 6,320,000  8,194,000 5,138,000  5,295,000 3,544,000  4,542,000 3,639,000  4,478,000 3,083,000  3,774,000 3,067,000  3,548,000 2,005,000  2,362,000 1,774,000  1,901,000 694,000  1,766,000 889,000  1,114,000 533,000  888,000 600,000  841,000 540,000  739,000 405,000  545,000 657,000  540,000 221,000  285,000 7,000  84,000 6,000  13,000

(37,000) (36,000) (3,000) (47,000)

4,000  (129,000) (797,000) (1,032,000)

(3,680,000) (4,100,000)

691,000  555,000 54,961,000  67,904,000

2,393,000  2,901,000 8,904,000  9,255,000 66,258,000  80,060,000

Notes to GST figures:

The GST rate changed from 3% to 5% in 1 June 2011 – this is the main reason for the increased income.

The total GST for 2012 relates to the analysis on page 116 of the Financial Report and Accounts 2012.

Negative values are repayments (i.e. the business has paid more GST on its expenditure than it has on its sales, normally because it is making some zero-rated sales and is therefore entitled to a GST refund).

It is important to note that these figures are not directly comparable to other measures such as retail sales figures, for the following main reasons:

· GST includes both revenue and capital spend, so major capital projects can distort return values.

· Not all businesses are GST registered (turnover below threshold).

· Some sales will not have GST applied (e.g. zero rated/exempt sales such as domestic house building and export of goods)

The industry analysis is a modified version of the UK 2007 Standard Industry Classification.

In order to be able to report on tax revenues by industry, information is only available based on the GST return data. A single return can span two years. Returns can also be amended at a later date. There are therefore two primary reasons for differences between Return Year basis and Financial Year basis - the net impact of these is shown separately.

17. DEPUTY  T.A.  VALLOIS  OF  ST.  SAVIOUR  OF  THE  MINISTER  FOR  SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING SOCIAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTIONS RECEIVED IN 2011 AND 2012:

Question

Would the Minister provide figures for the amount of Social Security contributions received from each area of the economy for the years 2011 and 2012?

Answer

Note that an extra 2% contribution payable on earnings between the Standard Earnings Limit and Upper Earnings Limit of £150,000 per year was introduced in January 2012. This contributed £5,121,000 towards the Class 1 total for 2012 and £1,974,000 towards the Class 2 total.

18. DEPUTY T.A. VALLOIS OF ST. SAVIOUR OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THECESSATIONOFFREE ANTENATAL CARE:

Question

Would the Minister advise whether antenatal care has ceased to be offered free of charge at the Hospital and, if so, when was this decision implemented and how will families be able to access such antenatal services in the future?

Answer

Antenatal care is still provided free of charge at the hospital.

As a result of White Paper investment, women are now being offered more choice about where they receive their antenatal care.

Following the roll out of a successful pilot scheme, which provided women with the alternative option to receive their antenatal care via a community midwife based in their General Practice, an increasing number of women are now choosing to do.

The  shared  care  with  Midwives  and  GPs  in  the  community,  is  not  replacing  Hospital-based antenatal care, but offering women with low-risk pregnancy, a consistency of care between key health professionals, while maintaining the familiarity and convenience of the General Practice setting. There is no charge for midwifery antenatal care carried out in the GP surgeries.

The service provides an alternative, appropriate and convenient option for women, and it has generated excellent feedback from those who have trialled the community-based antenatal care option.

19. DEPUTY J.H. YOUNG OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR PLANNING AND ENVIRONMENT REGARDING THE PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT OFTHE ESPLANADE AND THE HOPKINS MASTERPLAN 2008:

Question

Will the Minister–

1. confirm whether the Policies of the Island Plan requires the States of Jersey Development Company to ensure that their proposed development of the Esplanade for the Jersey International Finance Centre fully complies with the Hopkins Masterplan of April 2008 and the Supplementary Guidance of April 2006;
2. inform the Assembly of any agreed changes which have been made to the 2008 Masterplan;
3. provide details of the extant consents for the Esplanade development, including the conditions of consent and Planning obligation agreements in force, to ensure the sinking of La Route de la Liberation is fully achieved before the Island Plan reaches its expiry date in 2020; and
4. ensure this policy requirement is rigorously enforced? Answer

It is assumed the question relates to "the Esplanade Quarter" project and not the neighbouring road "the Esplanade".

1. Policy BE2: Delivery oftheSt Helier Waterfront ofthe 2011 Island Plan provides the principal element ofthe planning policy framework for the assessment of any planning applications relating to the St Helier Waterfront, including the Esplanade Quarter.

The policy states that the supplementary planning guidance for the St Helier Waterfront, represented by The Jersey Waterfront - Supplementary Planning Guidance, April 2006 and the Esplanade Quarter Masterplan - Supplementary Planning Guidance, April 2008 will be the principal material considerations in the determination of planning applications for the St Helier Waterfront and that applications which accord with the planning framework will be permitted.

2. The Minister for Planning and Environment made and published an amendment to the Esplanade Quarter Masterplan - Supplementary Planning Guidance in March 2011.

The amendment sought to respond to the emerging demand for commercial office floor space and resulted in some changes to the proposed layout, size, scale and location of the open spaces and buildings in the eastern section of the Esplanade Quarter.

The broad concept of the master plan to provide a new waterfront with streets and squares with a firm emphasis on design quality and place making did not change with this Amendment. The Amendment however made it clear that the sinking of La Route de Liberation would not take place at the start of work on Esplanade Quarter but would now be part of a later phase.

3. The extant consents for the Esplanade Quarter are:

• Planning application PP/2008/1680 was approved in July 2010 and granted outline planning permission for a mixed use development of 620,000 sq ft of offices, 388 residential apartments, 65 self-catering units, winter gardens, boutique hotel, 54,000 sq ft restaurant / retail, public open spaces, 1425 car parking spaces (900 private car parking spaces and 525 pubic ones) with a new underground road tunnel and other associated road works and landscaping.
• Planning application P/2009/1462 was approved in February 2010 and granted permission for a scheme known as Zephyrus, comprising 59 residential apartments in five buildings with ground floor commercial space and associated basement parking and storage.

• Planning application P/2012/1141 was approved in August 2013 and granted permission for "Building 4" as an office block of 67,000 sq ft (net) with associated basement and landscaping, plus the temporary relocation of existing car park.

The application PP/2008/1680 and P/2012/1141 as noted above were approved with conditions and both also were the subject of Planning Obligation Agreements, which are available to view on the States of Jersey website. The planning application PP/2008/1680 which was granted consent on July 2010 was the subject of extensive public consultation and was also the subject of a full Public Inquiry. It was a complex scheme which was supported by the independent Inspector whose report in favour of the scheme was endorsed by the former Minister Senator Cohen

Approval of application P/2012/1141 was informed by the SPG of March 2011. The scheme was acknowledged to be compliant with the terms of the SPG and the broad objectives of the Masterplan. The approval also required the submission of a phasing plan prior to the commencement of development, to include the timetable for the sinking of La Route de la Liberation and the balance of the wider Masterplan works.

None of the approved schemes have been implemented and, as yet, the wider 'phasing plan' information has not been submitted to my department. Whilst the Masterplan sets a general vision for the area, it is not the Planning Department which is responsible for bringing forward developments or ensuring their delivery.

The Masterplan sets out the sinking of the road as a later phase of work, after the delivery of new modern office space. There is no requirement for the works to be complete before 2020. The 2008 Master plan is embedded in the 2011 Island Plan and it may also be carried forward into future Island Plan reviews. It is a strategic long-term project.

Although the Deputy only asked for details of extant consents in his question, it should also be noted that other applications have been submitted for the Esplanade Quarter site, and are yet to be determined, specifically:

• Planning application P/2008/1681 was submitted in August 2008, and seeks detailed planning permission for excavation and enabling works to form basement car park, new underground road tunnel and other associated road works and general infrastructural works. This application has not been determined. A financial bond was deemed to be essential to ensure the completion of those works and this key element was never successfully negotiated.
• Planning application P/2013/0993 was submitted on 18 July 2013, and seeks permission for "Building 1" as an office block with associated basement and landscaping, plus temporary relocation of existing public car park. This application is pending a determination.
• Planning application P/2013/1209 was submitted on 28 September 2013 and seeks permission to construct a 520 space underground public car park on three and a half levels with a new public park on the surface. This is pending a determination.

4. As required under law, the Minister shall grant planning permission for development which accords with the Island Plan. The law also provides the Minister with discretion to grant planning permission thatis inconsistent with the Island Plan where the Minister is satisfied that there is sufficient justification for doing so.

In assessing all applications, it is incumbent upon the Minister to have regard to and to weigh the individual considerations that apply to each case and to determine each application accordingly, having set out his justification for doing so.

In this respect, and as the Planning and Environment Minister, I can confirm that I will ensure that the policies of the 2011 Island Plan, and the guidance associated with them, will remain my primary consideration, to be weighed and considered against other matters raised by any proposed development.

4. Oral Questions Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Would it be appropriate for me to ask whether it would be possible after the period of oral questions for the statement on the Budget to be taken in advance of questions without notice, to give Members a greater opportunity than just 10 minutes perhaps to quiz myself and the Chief Minister on the Budget statement?

The Bailiff :

Yes, that seems a sensible suggestion. Do Members agree that? So we will take your statement after the oral questions on notice, but before the oral questions without notice.

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Does that decision mean that we shall have more time to quiz the Minister or not? The Bailiff :

No. What it means is that you will have the statement, then you will have the normal 10 minutes, but then you will also have 15 minutes to question the Minister without notice, and no doubt some of the questions may relate to his statement.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding updatingtheJersey Dental Fitness Scheme:

What progress, if any, has the Minister made on updating the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme? Senator F. du H. Le Gresley (The Minister for Social Security):

Members will recall that the major proposition on health strategy, P.82/2012 Health and Social Services, The New Way Forward, was approved by the Assembly towards the end of 2012. That proposition included a commitment to develop a new model of primary care, including general medical practitioners, dentists, high street optometrists and pharmacists. This work is ongoing and the Social Security Department is supporting the Health and Social Services Department in the development of primary care in Jersey, including dental services. The Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme is a good example of an existing co-operation between the 2 departments, with the Health and Social Services Department providing dental services to ensure that children aged 11 and above are dentally fit so that this dental fitness can be maintained by a community dentist. The ongoing cost of the community dentist is then subsidised by the Social Security Department. Against the background of the major Primary Care Review, I am also committed to making a complementary improvement to the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme and this work is currently underway. As set out in my written answer tabled today, I will return to the Assembly with details of my proposals as soon as they are ready. It would not be appropriate to commit to a timetable today, as both legal and financial issues must be resolved before any firm plans can be brought forward.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister for Social Security appears to have lost a chunk of time. He refers to P.82 of 2012. He first promised to do something about the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme as a result of S.R.12 of 2010.

[09:45]

He failed to produce anything by the end of 2011, and at the end of 2011 promised that it would be in his business plan for 2012 and he would deliver a review of the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme by the end of 2012. It is now October 2013 and still we have seen nothing. Can the Minister for Social Security account for this?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

The timeframe the Deputy has just described includes the time when I was not Minister for Social Security. I was appointed Minister for Social Securityin November 2011. The work that developed the healthcare proposal P.82 was developed in 2012 and it is as a result of that that we held back on the full review of dental services. However, we have, as I stated in my opening statement, and we are working on the Jersey Dental Fitness Scheme. I have looked at proposals and as I said, subject to legal changes required, if required, I will be bringing those proposals back to the States.

The Bailiff :

A final question, Deputy Southern ?

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Surely, Minister, it is a very straightforward thing to update a scheme that is already in place. It was very useful when it was introduced in 1992. In 1992, the sum paid to dentists monthly for maintaining people at dental fitness was £6 a month. Members might like to hazard a guess as to what it is now, 21 years later. Why? It is £6 a month and completely inadequate.

The Bailiff :

Come to your question, Deputy . Deputy G.P. Southern :

Surely the Minister for Social Security does not have any legal problems with updating a scheme that has been accepted by the States of Jersey previously?

Senator F. du H. Le Gresley:

If it was only that simple, we would have done it by now. The only thing that the scheme has allowed us to do is to increase the annual disregard for income, which is now in excess of £40,000. We did not have provision in the way the scheme was devised to increase the payment to dentists and it is exactly that which I am obtaining legal advice on as to how we can amend the scheme to improve the contribution that the States of Jersey makes to the dentists.

2. Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the disposal of asbestos:

Will the Minister for Planning and Environment advise whether he considers it vital that the substantial legacy of asbestos-containing materials is safely stored as soon as possible, pending longer-term disposal, and if so, when will he determine the planning application submitted in December 2010 by the Minister for Transport and Technical Services to allow the use of a hazardous waste cell at La Collette, which was engineered and available for this purpose?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

I consider it very important that asbestos materials are safely stored and managed and that both short and the longer-term solutions are identified and implemented. My department has and continues to work with the Transport and Technical Services Department in exploring options that offer the best way forward. With regard to the T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) planning application to store asbestos at La Collette, I have recently received from T.T.S. written confirmation of an amendment to their application. This now confirms that the intended use of the waste storage cell at La Collette would be for a temporary storage solution pending the introduction of the appropriate technologies to treat this waste in a more sustainable manner. Now that I have received this alteration to the application, I can confirm that I will determine the amended planning application as soon as possible following the expiry of the statutory planning application advertisement period.

4.2.1 Deputy J.H. Young:

I am grateful for the Minister's answer, particularly the final part. Could the Minister for Planning and Environment explain though why it has taken almost 3 years from the time of February 2011, when the 2 Ministries consulted on this question, to arrive at what seems a sensible answer now? Why has it taken nearly 3 years?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

It has taken this long because of the nature of the application. The application that was delivered to the department in December 2010 was for, and I state: "Construction and operation of an asbestos cell to provide the final disposal of approximately 1,100 to 1,500 tonnes of asbestos, both fibrous and bonded, which is currently stored in approximately 200 ex-shipping containers on La Collette Phase 2 reclamation site. The development will also provide for the final disposal of asbestos arising on Jersey while the cell is open, anticipated to be approximately 9 years." Disposal of asbestos materials does not necessarily represent the best sustainable method or environmental method for dealing with this particular material. The negotiations that have taken place over the intervening period of time have been to encourage the T.T.S. Department to explore options that offer a more sustainable way forward. I am pleased to report that the penny has dropped and they have amended their application to move forward on that basis.

1. Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement :

It seems to me that what the Transport and Technical Services Department are seeking is to move it twice and there could be a danger that once moved into a temporary state it will stay there and no long-term solution will be found. Does the Minister share those views?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Indeed, that was one of my particular worries, which is why I have held out for an amended application to establish beyond doubt and under proper reasonableness that the longer-term solutions will be robustly explored and hopefully implemented.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

If the process works and the application is approved, can the Minister for Planning and Environment tell us when we can see movement on this matter?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I have already indicated that following the expiry of the statutory planning application period, I will determine the application. It depends on T.T.S. It is not my department's responsibility to decant the materials from the containers or to place the sorted or unsorted materials into this storage pit.

But we have to be aware that the fundamental difference of opinion has been between the departments on the basis of a long-term disposal route, which would render the site down at La Collette in a toxic dump state for the inevitable future, as opposed to a remediation process, which would still allow for disposal of remediated materials which would not pose similar toxic health or other waste problems.

3. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Just a supplementary: could the Minister for Planning and Environment tell us when he will be issuing approval?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

When the next Ministerial hearing is convened. The Bailiff :

Senator Le Gresley, you wanted to ask a question, but it is the policy that we do not normally allow one Minister to question another. It is usually rather friendly, although it may not always be. But I think we must stick to the policy because we do not know in advance.

4. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin :

What is the earliest possible date that the Minister could determine this modified application? Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I think the earliest date is probably 6 to 8 weeks. It may be a little bit longer, but I have not seen the amended application as yet, although I am told it is with the Planning and Environment Department, and an officer will have to write a report in the meantime.

5. Deputy J.H. Young:

Would the Minister not agree that the public might find it difficult to understand why, notwithstanding all the technical complexities of his very helpful answer, it took 3 years to get an amended application and a letter which allows him to approve this application after 3 years? Would he not say that this is an example of how our Ministerial government system is working in silos and does it really take a question from me to get an answer?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

No, I do not think it does, but Members of this House must appreciate that times change and we do have and should have regard to best environmental practice in dealing with our waste materials. Notably, there was a release dated 8th October, Incinerator Bottom Ash set for export. Originally, the A.P.C.R. (Air Pollution Control Residue), and indeed the I.B.A. (Incinerator Bottom Ash), were going to be continued to be placed in pits at La Collette, but times have changed and following work that has been done by the T.T.S. Department, encouraged by my department, we now have 2 suggestions whereby both those materials will be exported for recovery and recycling, not disposal. There is a fundamental difference of approach between the 2 to U.K. (United Kingdom) or other European outfits in order to treat those materials in the best sustainable environmental fashion. Absolutely the same thing applies to asbestos waste.

The Bailiff :

A concise answer, if you would, please, Minister. Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

I have forgotten what the question was. [Laughter] Deputy J.H. Young:

Shall I repeat it, Sir? The Bailiff :

No, I think to remind Ministers of the Standing Order which says answers must be concise and they must be directed to the question. We come next to ..

Deputy K.C. Lewis of Saviour:

A point of clarification. I did say since the day I was elected as Minister for Transport and Technical Services ..

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Minister, this is question time.

Deputy K.C. Lewis :

It is just clarifying the answer, Sir, but I said I would send it away for remediation.

The Bailiff :

It was not in relation to you and I am sure you can clarify it by an email to Members, if necessary.

3. The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the retirement age for Fire and Rescue Service staff:

Given the physical and arduous job that the Fire and Rescue Service staff perform on behalf of Islanders, would the Minister for Home Affairs agree that the current retirement age of 55 is a suitable age for fulltime operational firemen to retire?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand (The Minister for Home Affairs):

The role of a frontline firefighter is physical and can be arduous when there is a major or lengthy incident. The Fire Service is different from other services that I am involved with, because unlike the States of Jersey Police, Customs and Immigration, there are not many desk-type jobs and therefore it is not easy to transfer officers who may no longer be fit across to desk-type jobs. The key issue in relation to the test of fitness is the level of oxygen-uptake of the individual. There have been medical studies on this fairly recently in the U.K. and this varies between individuals as to the starting point when they are young and decreases with age. The U.K. recommended level is 42 millilitres per kilogram per minute, but with an absolute lower limit of 35. There is much debate as to whether 42 is the right limit or not. The opinion of our Chief Fire Officer is that it is possible for firefighters to maintain an adequate level of fitness and work safety to the age of 60 provided that they remain free from injury and disease and provided that they keep fit. However, not all firefighters will succeed in that. The current retirement age is not 55. The current retirement age is between 50 and 55 and the S.E.B. (States Employment Board) proposals are a move to between 55 and 60. With that move, there may be some officers who would be no longer operationally fit before 55 and a provision may need to be made for them to be able to retire before 55 with a pro-rata pension.

The Bailiff :

A supplementary, Deputy ? You do not have to. The Deputy of St. Martin :

That is all, Sir.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I think maybe the Deputy of St. Martin has an interest in this question which he may wish to declare, but if I can carry on, I would ask the Minister for Home Affairs, is he fully supporting the S.E.B. move that the pension age be moved from 55 to 60 and would he be prepared to contemplate, for example, transfers to other work within the States as a whole? It seems very limiting to transfer simply within the Fire and Rescue Service.

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

I just need to correct the Deputy very gently that it is not a retirement age from 55 to 60. It is moving a compulsory retirement age from 55 to 60, because there is a 5-year slot in relation to that. In general terms, I am supportive of it, provided that fair arrangements can be made for firefighters, and in particular, I have highlighted the particular issue of a difficulty which may occur if a firefighter is unable to retain the necessary fitness level before 55 and therefore is forced to retire effectively because he no longer can do the job. He is not being retired on health grounds in the normal way and there is going to be a gap before he receives his pension. That is why I said that I think there needs to be some consideration of this and I certainly will be in discussions with the S.E.B. on this kind of issue.

2. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Just to clarify, Sir, that the Minister for Home Affairs is supportive of the move to reform the system?

Senator B.I. Le Marquand:

Provided there are appropriate safeguards. This one cuts both ways, because there have been those arguing for some time that it was unfair on officers who were still fit that they were being forced to retire at 55.

[10:00]

I am told in the notes which I have from the Chief Fire Officer that he has on occasion obtained an extension for some people to 57, so you have 2 different views here. There are those who would want to enable fit officers to continue later and there are those who are concerned about the effect on pensions.