States Meeting Transcript - 11th November 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

TUESDAY, 11th NOVEMBER 2014

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................5

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor..................................5 The Bailiff :....................................................................................5
2. Remembrance commemoration..........................................................5 The Bailiff :....................................................................................5

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.....................................................5 APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................6

2. Chairman, Public Accounts Committee..................................................6

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:......................................................6

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:........................................................7
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :....................................................................8
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :....................................................................8
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :....................................................................8
5. Senator P.M. Bailhache : .................................................................9
6. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:..........................................9
7. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:......................................................9
8. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................10

9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................10
10. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................10
11. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary:................................................10
12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................11
13. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................11
14. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................11
15. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................12
16. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................12

2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier : ........................................................12

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................13
2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................14
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................14

4. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................14
5. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................15
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................15
7. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:..................................................15
8. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................15

9. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................16
10. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................16
11. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................16
12. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................16
13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................16
14. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................17
15. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence:..........................................17
16. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................18
17. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................18
18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................20

3. Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel.........................................21

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................22

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................23
2. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................24
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................24
4. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................24

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER .....................................24

Welcome to His Excellency, the High Commissioner from New Zealand, Sir Lockwood

Smith and Lady Smith..................................................................24

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS.........................25 Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel (continued)..................................25

5. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................25
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................25
7. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................25
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................26
9. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................26
10. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................27
11. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................27
12. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................27

2. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary:........................................................28

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................29
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
3. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................30
4. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................30
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................30
6. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................31
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................31
8. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................32
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................32
11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................32
12. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................32
13. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................33
14. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................33
15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................33

16. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................33
17. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................34

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:...............................................................34

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................35
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................35
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................35
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................35
5. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................36
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................36
7. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................37
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................37
9. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................37
10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................38
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................38
12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................38

4. Chairman, Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel...........................................39

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS....................................................39 The Connétable of St. Clement:..............................................................39

Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel (continued)..................................40 Chairman, Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel (continued)....................................41

1. The Connétable of Grouville : ...........................................................41

1. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................43
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43

2. Deputy S.M. Bree:.......................................................................43

1. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................44
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................44
3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................45
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................45
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................45

5. Chairman, Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel..............................47

5.1 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................47 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................47

6. Chairman, Environment, Housing and Technical Services Panel......................47

6.1 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................48

7. Chairman, Health and Social Security Scrutiny Panel.................................48

1. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen:........................................................48

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................50
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................50
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................50
4. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................51

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................51

1. The Connétable of St. Lawrence:.......................................................53
2. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................54
3. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade:.................................................54
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................54
5. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................55
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................55
7. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:..................................................55
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................56
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................56
10. The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................56
11. Deputy S.M. Wickenden:............................................................57

8. Chairman, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission..........................................58

8.1 The Deputy of Grouville :................................................................59 ADJOURNMENT................................................................................59

[9:31]

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor The Bailiff :

On behalf of Members may I extend a warm welcome to His Excellency for our deliberations today? [Approbation]

2. Remembrance commemoration The Bailiff :

Before we begin can I also say to Members that, with Members' agreement, I plan at 11.00 a.m. no matter what is happening at that stage, to interrupt the proceedings so that we can stand for 2 minutes to commemorate those who have fallen?

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

May I ask, I hope it is a point of order after hearing what Sir Lockwood said to States Members yesterday, can the order be changed on which panels are proposed? Forgive me for not having read the Standing Orders.

The Bailiff :

I think it is in Standing Orders, in the order set out there. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I understand that there is one potential panel which has no contest at all but I understand that there might be another candidate that may come forward. Therefore, in that eventuality, it might be helpful to deal with those panels who have a contest, and a known contest first, rather than potentially somebody just walking in.

The Bailiff :

Well the order is as set out. What I suggest is that if we do not get any nominations for a particular panel then we will move on to the next one and put it at the end.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

In other words, there can be ..

The Bailiff :

But we must go for it in the order in which it is in the Order Paper at present. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

But then somebody else could be nominated for it later, is that right?

The Bailiff :

No, if there are no nominations then we will put it down.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Then they just walk in?

The Bailiff :

But at the moment if there are some nominations, if people are not ready to be nominated, then that is too bad. So, in other words, we will do it in the order in which it is in the Order Paper but if, for instance, we get to one Scrutiny Panel and there are no nominations ..

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

It is just one Member who is unaware. [Interruption] That was my point. There has apparently been a lack of clarity on the fact that there are some panels there may be just simply one Member going into it and therefore no contest then therefore they just walk straight in.

The Bailiff :

Well, everyone has had plenty of opportunity to know. The Order Paper has been clear, if Members have not got themselves together, I think that is the consequence.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

That is fine. You have made your ruling, Sir. The Bailiff :

Very well.

The Very Reverend R.F. Key, B.A., The Dean of Jersey:

I would crave Members' forbearance, I will not be here at 11.00 a.m. in this Chamber because I will be presiding over the Remembrance Service at Victoria College.

The Bailiff :

Thank you very much, Dean.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Chairman, Public Accounts Committee

The Bailiff :

Very well, so we will now return to the Order Paper and the first matter is the Public Accounts Committee. May I invite nominations for the chairmanship of that committee? Yes, the Deputy of St. John .

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

May I nominate Deputy Jeremy Maçon?

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Deputy S.M. Bree of St. Clement :

I would like to propose Deputy Andrew Lewis .

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Very well, so we have 2 nominations, so I would ask Deputy Andrew Lewis please to withdraw and go with the Assistant Greffier. Very well then, Deputy Maçon, you have up to 10 minutes to address the Assembly.

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

Here we are again. The Public Accounts Committee plays an extremely important role in the functioning of both parliament and government. Its ability to hold officers to account with the assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor General reporting to this Assembly is of significance to the way in which public services are implemented and the wishes of this Assembly to deliver in an efficient and effective manner. We have seen the development of the Jersey Audit Office by the Comptroller and Auditor General over the past year, in addition to the new primary legislation governing this office providing absolute independence and clear roles and responsibilities to this Assembly. The role of the P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) is to assist in determining the economies of scale held within departments for delivering wider public services. Issues of value for money are of great importance, especially in a financial climate whereby potential deficits will arise and particularly with a government whose wishes are to deliver more services for less. If I was elected to the chair of P.A.C. I would ensure that all previous reports compiled by both the

Comptroller and Auditor General and the previous P.A.C. are followed up to ensure in particular the recommendations that have been accepted by departments are implemented and seek the evidence to find this in fact. The reason why I believe this is an important first priority is that there is a risk that a continuum of reports saying the same thing will not hold those responsible to account for effective change but potentially allow more get-out clauses. Governance is a huge issue within the States of Jersey. Without having appropriate governance arrangements and appropriate control of financial management, the Minister for Treasury and Resources will be facing a requirement to increase taxes much sooner than he believes. Value for money is not just about the number but about the quality of product or service that has been produced. It is about ensuring that the contract and project management is carried out effectively for the benefit of the taxpayer. I see my role not as being a thorn in the side of the Executive but more of an external management tool for the public to see how money is spent and whether it is spent efficiently and effectively and provides constructive solutions to assist the development of better governance and financial prudence. No, I may not have the qualifications in accounting or finance. I do, however, have common sense and political savvy to take this committee forward. I have also chaired, not only the Privileges and Procedures Committee, but also I was a former chair of the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel which shows that I have the ability to chair a panel, conduct meetings and also hold those to account in public. Therefore, I believe I would be more than able to bring this committee into function very quickly, given my past experience. Thank you. I look forward to Members' questions.

The Bailiff :

Very well, do any Members have questions for up to 20 minutes for Deputy Maçon? Deputy Tadier .

1. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Thank you. We were reminded yesterday by His Excellency who visited from New Zealand that an imperative and important part of government is to hold the Executive to account, which P.A.C. obviously is one of the bodies which does that. Does the candidate think that while in the past P.A.C. has come up with many interesting findings sometimes very critical of government spending that they perhaps lack the teeth to be able to do anything to hold those Ministers to account in real ways and, if so, what would the candidate propose for the future?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Of course the main role of the P.A.C. is to hold the Accounting Officers to account in order to ensure that policy adopted by this Assembly is implemented properly. It is very much a case of having the political will and backbone in order to drive these things forward if perhaps they are not being met. By my track record I am certainly not afraid of the Executive, nor to bring things forward before this Assembly to be debated. I think that is an important role of the chairman of P.A.C. to do that.

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

We have 2 candidates which is good for the position of P.A.C. The current candidate will have been in this Assembly over the last 3 years and will have seen effectively the spectre of the P.A.C. and Corporate Services working together.

[9:45]

As the previous questioner rightly said, P.A.C. is focused on the Executive in terms of almost being the Scrutiny Panel for the public sector employees and the Accounting Officers not employed. Sometimes there are grey areas; how would the candidate propose to work with the chairman of Corporate Services in order to deal with their segregation of duties?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I would not necessarily call it a spectre of Corporate Services. Certainly I think it should be a partnership between P.A.C. and Corporate Services. I think that the main issues are that P.A.C. is very much looking back over different processes, looking at the implementation, whereas Corporate Services are more so looking forward into quality development and, therefore, I think that is where the dividing line is. But I appreciate that at times there will be a bit of grey area but I have shown myself to be a team player and able to hand things over if appropriate or stand my ground if necessary.

The Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to ask any questions of Deputy Maçon? Senator Ozouf .

3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

If nobody else is going to ask questions, it is important I think to elucidate the answers and to try and test out exactly how the candidate, in a constructive way, would approach things, so forgive me for putting my light on. The role of the Comptroller and Auditor General is also another adjunct to the work of P.A.C. Last time we had the incidence of the P.A.C. producing reports themselves as a committee. Would the candidate agree that the committee's primary function is to take reports prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General and then to effectively examine witnesses and the players that form part of the reports themselves perhaps rather than writing their own reports as a committee? I do not say "unprofessionals" but effectively the professional expertise, the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General), the P.A.C. themselves are effectively non-experts, although parliamentarians. Would the candidate agree that he does not think that the P.A.C. themselves should be writing reports rather than concentrating on C. and A.G. reports?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I do believe that the focus of the P.A.C. is to receive reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General and therefore formulate work from that, but if I turn Members' attention to Standing Order 132, if you look at clause (c) under which the Terms of Reference of the P.A.C. are set out, it does allow for the P.A.C. to consider things more widely in that it is asked to assess whether public funds have been applied for the purpose intended by the States and whether extravagance and waste have been eradicated and sound financial practices applied throughout the administration of the States, so there is scope within that Standing Order to allow the P.A.C. to look at matters. So while I accept that the majority of the work from P.A.C. will be from the Comptroller and Auditor General that particular Standing Order does allow the committee to produce its own reports and that is the political dimension of that committee and that is why it is there. It is not simply to rubberstamp anything that comes from the Comptroller and Auditor General. I think the terms of the committee are laid out in Standing Orders.

4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

May I have a supplementary on that? I agree with that but does the candidate not agree that the absolute primary driver of reports should be the C. and A.G.?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

As I have already, said the majority of the work will come from what the C. and A.G. does but I am not going to hamstring the Public Accounts Committee if there is something that comes along which they feel is of worth for them to delve into as laid out by Standing Orders.

5. Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The Public Accounts Committee has the very difficult task of holding what I might call the "establishment" to account and challenging on occasion very senior officials. Would the candidate care to identify an instance during the last period of time of his Presidency of the Privileges and Procedures Committee where there was a particularly nasty nettle that he gripped and dealt with?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

One can almost say that everything one has to deal with in this place can be a nasty nettle to deal with. In particular I think there are certain aspects around the Police H.Q. (Headquarters) which my committee on Education and Home Affairs Panel robustly challenged. I also feel in that aspect we robustly challenged the introduction of the Taser Review, so much so that the Minister for Home Affairs did have to go back and look at his proposal to change it in order to resolve matters raised by the panel, which initially the Minister was not happy to do but once we produced the evidence he more or less had to do so. Therefore, I do believe that working as a team one can be effective and create changes in the States.

6. Connétable D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :

If elected, what would the candidate see as a priority in the first year for P.A.C.? Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think there are probably 3 tranches which have to be looked at, as I have already alluded to, following up on the recommendations which were already established by the previous P.A.C. Also carrying on the work from the previous P.A.C., the matters surrounding grants and subsidies which are given out are high on the priority and are something which do need to be looked into. Finally, with the aspect of ongoing public sector reform, the matters around governance by the Comptroller and Auditor General have got to be key and it is something which I believe that the P.A.C. over the next 3 years must factor-in to its work programme.

7. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

It was almost implied by Senator Ozouf that you should be looking at things discreetly so, in other words, only reports by the Comptroller and Auditor General rather than be looking at reports yourselves and not liaising with the chairman of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel. Is not part of the problem that we had in the past a silo mentality with our Ministries and it is important that we have a wider reach and greater co-operation with people, whether it be the Comptroller and Auditor General or the chairmen of the Scrutiny Panels to look at the work of departments and their expenditure?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, as the Member will know the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee does sit on the Chairmen's Committee which is chair of all the Scrutiny Panels and that committee is there in order to collaboratively work together in order to split up the workload among those Scrutiny Panels so that effective management of the function is done and also to ensure that duplication does not work. Therefore, I would expect naturally that some form of collaboration and prioritisation between those bodies would occur and I would seek to continue that in the future.

8. The Deputy of St. John :

Could the candidate explain what his position would be if he found himself without the Comptroller and Auditor General and how he would pursue that particular problem?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The first answer is: with great difficulty as I know this particular matter did dog the previous chair. However, I believe again from her work that the National Audit Office in the U.K. (United Kingdom) was willing in order to assist in some matters with regards to carrying on the work within Jersey and I would be looking to that body in particular to try and assist us going forward.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

The candidate being astute may have noticed the Chief Minister leap to his feet when he thought that his candidate, Deputy Andrew Lewis , was not going to get proposed. Does the candidate believe that it is important that Scrutiny is truly independent and not beholden to the Executive and can he comment on the Machinery of Government Sub-Committee recommendation that we should consider in future that the Executive should not be able to vote for Scrutiny chairmen and that

should be left to Scrutiny on their own to appoint who they think best to hold the Executive to account?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I did not realise this was a question of an all and sundry. No, I should not say that. No, it is incredibly important that Scrutiny and the chairs of panels are of course independent but able to work collaboratively when they are able to with, not just the Ministers, but any part of the Assembly that should appear. I think in regards to who should vote for whatever panel, I think that is out of the Terms of Reference of this particular seat and I withhold from commenting at this time.

10. Senator P.F. Routier:

Every job has its good points and its bad points so could the candidate give me an indication of what he thinks is going to be the bits he is really going to enjoy and the bits he is going to dislike?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think that in Scrutiny or P.A.C. the part which one always enjoys are the public hearings, holding Ministers to account, getting the evidence out of particularly tricky officers or Ministers; that is always an enjoyable part of the job. I think perhaps the least enjoyable part, although I accept it is going to be the most considerable part of the job, is all the reading and research that will go with this particular post though I have showed myself more than capable of doing that.

11. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Does the candidate consider the current sizing of the committee is appropriate or will he be seeking to change the size of the committee?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

There is always a balance between how many members one should have on the committee versus being able to hold meetings that are quorate in order to progress matters. Just to remind Members that the Public Accounts Committee does also have non-elected members on the body and therefore in order to carry everything forward my intention is to keep the size that it is with 5 members and consider the workload and how we progress. If more work does appear, then I think it might be appropriate to enlarge the committee but at the moment my vision is to keep it with 5: 3 elected members and 2 non-elected.

12. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Following on from Deputy Tadier 's rather curious question which he previously cited the wise words of our distinguished visitor, the former Speaker of the New Zealand Parliament, where he said that the Executive benefits from tough scrutiny. Would he not agree that what the Executive needs, and I am talking about the Executive in terms of the Civil Service and the public sector, that Ministers need a chair of P.A.C. and a C and A.G. which is not an issue of being the Chief Minister's preferred candidate or not in terms of friendship because it is nothing to do with that. But what the chair of P.A.C. needs to be is professional, tough and searching in relation to the way that they conduct their business. Does he think that he can do that and has he been at all to see any of the hearings of the P.A.C. or has he looked at any of the P.A.C. hearings in London and does he have any comments about the way that Margaret Hodge has run P.A.C. in the U.K.?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Shall I take those questions in order? Yes; yes; I believe that Margaret Hodge has done a very good job in regards to the P.A.C. in England. I think that her work has been exemplary. Her reports have not always been as well received and adopted as they should have been because she has come forward with some very good recommendations around different types of government structure with the matters that just come forward. I have also been to see the officer in charge of P.A.C. over here in order to get a briefing with him about the workload of the committee and also, yes, I have seen snippets, perhaps not an entire P.A.C. hearing, of the U.K. branch.

13. Deputy M. Tadier :

Can the possible chairman give his thoughts on the fact that there are many ways to chair meetings effectively and one does not have to be perceived as always macho or abrasive to be able to work effectively with the team? Can he confirm that if he is elected to this position he will do that job to the best of his ability but also employ the skills, not only of other States Members on that panel, but the non-Executive members who bring something to that panel?

[10:00]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

In order to gather information during a Scrutiny hearing there are a different variety of tactics one can employ. Sometimes it is necessary to be tough, short and sharp in order to get specific chunks of evidence out of witnesses. At the same time there is also the possibility for a much calmer approach as often if witnesses are calmer in front of a committee they do open up and give out more evidence willingly. But of course it is a political judgment as to how the committee should proceed when conducting hearings. Of course, I have shown myself to be able to do this, chair a panel, in order to bring out the skills of those members on my committee and I am sure I would have absolutely no problem doing that with non-elected members as well.

14. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Could the candidate give some indication to Members who he might consider for membership of the panel and the criteria behind those particular individuals that make them good members and obviously potential members of the Public Accounts Committee?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It is a completely open door to any Member who should want to come forward and identify themselves if they want to be on the P.A.C. I think that the most important aspects, qualities, for members on the P.A.C. are certainly to be critical, to be analytical and, above everything, on Scrutiny and the P.A.C., to judge things on an evidence basis. Those are the types of skills and qualities I would be looking for anyone coming forward who would want to serve on the P.A.C.

15. The Deputy of St. John :

Experience of the P.A.C. suggests that, no matter how much evidence you have to support your arguments and your report, you become rather more of a nagging individual to try to ensure that implementation is carried out appropriately. Could the candidate explain how they would go about this and try and break down the barriers of "them" and "us" and ensure that there is more of a cross-selection of dealing with implementation properly?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It can be a frustration for Members in this Assembly when one does have the evidence to back one's arguments and perhaps the Executive is not willing to change matters accordingly. There are different ways in which these things can be actioned. These can be through, I would not call them "cosy" meetings, but sometimes a private meeting in order to have a discussion with the relevant Minister or Accounting Officer is one way forward. But I have absolutely no problem in bringing matters to the States Assembly if I believe that they are so serious that the P.A.C. effectively is being ignored and change needs to happen. I am not afraid to do that and if necessary I would do so.

16. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The chairman of P.A.C. will come under pressure from Ministers. Do you have the strength of character to stand up to them and not be malleable and give in to their will?

The Bailiff :

Does the candidate. Deputy M.R. Higgins: The candidate, thank you. Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.

The Bailiff :

Very well. Now we will ask Deputy Maçon to withdraw and request that Deputy Andrew Lewis return. Yes, then when you are ready and have collected your papers, or not, as the case may be, Deputy Lewis , you have up to 10 minutes to address the Assembly.

2. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

Sorry for the slight delay but they found a particularly dark dungeon for me. Members, we are very privileged to live in a society which is supported by an economy that, despite the impact of a recession, has fared well compared with most other small jurisdictions. Anyone looking at Jersey from the outside can see from just a cursory glance that our economy punches well above its weight. That said, it will face challenges on a number of fronts. Balancing the books must be a priority of the Council of Ministers and if appointed as chairman I will challenge Ministers, not least the Minister for Treasury and Resources, to do just that. Public Accounts is about value. I have scrutinised public accounts for many years. Some of you will know that I was chairman of the Institute of Directors for a number of years. At that time we were challenging government all of the time. We used a P.R. (Public Relations) machine to do it and it was very effective. We are

honour-bound as an Assembly to ensure that the public receives fair value from their taxes and those that pay little or no tax should also be treated well within our benevolent society. As we know, tax receipts are falling and expenditure is increasing and we have consequent looming deficits. So what do we do? How are we to ensure that our Ministers act as responsible guardians of our public funds? In my mind there are 2 simple mechanisms for balancing the books: increasing taxes; increasing economic growth. But there is of course a third. It is a housewife's solution, or in this modern day should I say a houseperson's solution? It is simply this: we should not be spending money that we do not have and when it is economically sensible we should borrow for items such as capital expenditure in exactly the same way as a family does for a family mortgage when buying their first house. But such an approach should only be taken when an income stream can be guaranteed such as the Andium Homes' concept. As I said in my last speech in this House when I was running for the Minister for Economic Development, government must be encouraged to set the scene and encourage enterprise, to act as a facilitator for economic success by creating the right conditions on which businesses can thrive thus hopefully increasing tax receipts. So why is this important? Well if we wish to maintain our high levels of public services the business must grow to generate the income that we need to supply those services. So when I stood as the Minister for Economic Development, for that post, I outlined my credentials and I think it is only fair to the Assembly that I reiterate them once again. I believe that I have business credentials that would be eminently suitable for the post of chairman of this panel. I possess a Business Studies qualification, I studied economics, accounts, law, I am a past chairman of the Institute of Directors, and I have both private and public sector experience. Those of you who may remember, I was the very first Humphrey the Lion at Fort Regent. Okay, it may be comical, but it shows that I have some public sector experience working with the old committee system. I built one of the Channel Islands' largest design, marketing and digital agencies from scratch and we now have offices in Jersey, Guernsey and Gibraltar. I developed and remain a shareholder in one of the U.K.'s largest online beauty, perfume and eCommerce platforms, employing over 120 staff in the Channel Islands. I have participated in developing online businesses in emerging markets. I understand the world economy. I have participated in developing commercial property as an active investor and project manager. I understand project creed; I understand how we can get it wrong. I have also worked in the travel and tourism sector, a pillar of our economy. I have worked in corporate aviation, corporate jet sales, charter, as well as luxury yacht management. I possess experience in launching new airline routes, including 2 premium class products. I have significant experience in corporate communications, both on and offline, in reputation management and crisis P.R. We are stumbling towards a crisis; we have a looming deficit. It is essential that our public accounts are scrutinised on a regular, invasive basis. Ministers must be brought to account for their spending. A word of warning to all Members, this House has a habit, as I have observed over many years, of bringing well-meaning propositions to this House but those propositions have a cost and often the last statement where it says: "What impact will this have on manpower and finances?" is grossly underestimated. Well-meaning propositions cost money and they are also out of synch with

the overall strategic plan that Members agree on. We vote on a budget, we then need to keep to it. That is very difficult to do if Members present well-meaning propositions to this House. We need to guard against that and as a chairman of Public Accounts Committee I will be making statements to that effect, warning Members that their actions, as benevolent and well-meaning as they may be, have an unintended consequence. I have little else to say and I welcome questions. Thank you.

The Bailiff :

Very well, so the Assembly now has up to 20 minutes to question Deputy Lewis and I have seen first Senator Ozouf .

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Standing Order 132 sets out very clearly what the Terms of Reference of the Public Accounts Committee are and that is to primarily take reports from the expert, Comptroller and Auditor General, and the results of the annual accounts and looking particularly at ways in which the public sector and the, not Ministers, but Accounting Officers have applied funds and got value for money. Would the candidate conduct the P.A.C. in a way that focuses very clearly the work of the panel on report from the C. and A.G. and will he regard himself as the Scrutiny Panel of the Executive in the public sector sense rather than in the political sense which is the area of Corporate Services Panel?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I think all Scrutiny Panels should work together and Public Accounts is in effect scrutinising government expenditure so, yes, the Assistant Minister is exactly right. This must focus on what the Ministers are spending and on Public Accounts but there is clearly an overlap with all other Scrutiny Panels. I would also wish to engage with all other business groups, charity groups and all sorts of input from other  members of our community to establish whether they think we are spending their money appropriately and the Ministers are doing exactly that. Thank you.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Thinking back to the previous post that this candidate has gone for, he has mentioned about qualifications. I would like the candidate to tell us precisely, accurately, what his academic qualifications are. He alluded to having experience in lots of areas but I would like to know what his specific academic qualifications are.

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I have a Business Studies qualification. As anybody knows that has studied business it covers all aspects of matters regarding accounts, economics, law and that is my qualification. It is a Business Studies qualification. But my qualification also is in life. I have managed and set up and established numerous businesses and bought and sold them.

[10:15]

I believe that my economic real-life experience is worth far more than any qualifications that many of us may have in this House.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

A supplementary? There are many Business Studies qualifications. Can the candidate tell us whether it is a B.T.E.C. (Business and Technology Education Council) Certificate, an ordinary National Certificate, Higher National Certificate, Higher National Diploma, a degree, what?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

It is a Higher National Diploma.

4. The Deputy of St. John :

The Public Accounts Committee holding Accounting Officers to account can sometimes come up against a difficult situation whereby no matter how much evidence they have to support their arguments, or even the C. and A.G.'s arguments, the implementation is few and far between. Could the candidate explain what they would do with regard to this situation?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I am not entirely sure that I understand the Deputy 's question but I assume that what you are wanting is strong leadership from somebody that will challenge anything that comes before that committee and that is what I would do and also I would do it collectively. I would want to work with the group. I chair a number of boards already and I am used to working as a chairman, I am used to working with a group. That group should be all powerful; it should not just be down to the chairman. I would listen to the whole group and I would also listen to other scrutiny chairmen's opinions and views as well.

5. Senator P.F. Routier:

Every position, every job in this Assembly has its challenge, can the candidate give some indication of what he thinks will be the best parts of the job and what he thinks will be the worst parts?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I think the best part will be ensuring that public funds are well spent and well managed. The worst part will be reading it all. As we well know, we have an enormous amount of information to digest and I would hope that all Ministries and Scrutiny Panels will get used to preparing good executive summaries if the Public Accounts Committee is prepared to look at things seriously. I want clear, concise reports with good executive summaries so that all Members of that panel and members of the public can get their head around issues quickly and easily without verbatim, long drawn out reports that do not get to the point.

6. Senator P.F. Routier:

A supplementary? With regard to those reports, is the candidate prepared to put in the work to ensure that those reports are read thoroughly by himself and the rest of his team?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Yes. I have been a States Member before at the time of paper. We did not have the online facility we have today and my study used to be full of paper, and, yes, I did used to read most of it. I can lay testimony to that because I still have copies of it covered in highlighted pens. So, yes, I will be reading all the relevant information required to make informed decisions.

7. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour :

Just so as I am clear for the future, I wonder if the candidate could enlighten us as to what a well- meaning proposition that should not be brought to the States look like. Just so I am clear.

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Members will remember this one very clearly. School milk. Well-meaning, good for dairy, good for some children, a lot of children do not like milk. It is well-meaning, it is for society, it is for the least able in our society perhaps, young people, but it has wasted so much time in this Assembly I believe and it could have cost us a lot of money, and I do not believe that money was very well directed either. So it is that type of proposition, Deputy , that I was suggesting.

8. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

How good that timing was. That short-sighted decision is now reflected it the words of our Director of Education who notices that people are coming to school starving, hungry and tired and that is affecting their achievements. That is the reality of doing what we did. Well-meaning or not. So the question must be, given the candidate's political stance, how easy is he going to find it to take off his politician's hat and put on his scrutineer's hat and be really tough. When I was listening to his speech I thought for a minute I had drifted off and it was a bid for the Chief Minister. We have to stick to our spending targets. That is the politics he is bringing to the job but can he take that off and behave on the basis of evidence?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I certainly would not move away from sticking to our budget, sticking to our spending targets, that is essential in balancing the accounts. So I do not really know where the Deputy is coming from on that. I am an independent politician. I will scrutinise in the way an independent politician should. I am not a member of the Executive now and I would not be if I was a Member of the P.A.C. It is the job of the P.A.C. chairman to scrutinise the Executive spending and that is exactly what I would do.

9. Senator P.M. Bailhache :

The candidate has made it clear that he would be active in challenging the Government, quite correctly. Would the candidate agree that challenges can be conducted firmly, and sometimes extremely firmly, but yet with courteous and good humour?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Absolutely. Listening to the Ambassador for New Zealand yesterday, the former Speaker of the House in New Zealand, he said exactly that. Courtesy in a Chamber such as this is vital to co- operation and getting all on-side. I would most definitely observe such behaviour. It is the only way to work in a Chamber of this nature. It is the only way to work in any group, is to abide by simple rules of courtesy and to bring people on side through negotiation, discussion and courtesy.

10. The Connétable of St. Mary :

Can the candidate advise the Assembly what the optimum size of the committee would be in his view?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I like small committees but I also believe that in this Assembly and outside it there is an enormous wealth of experience that we could draw upon. So I would not at this point wish to say exactly the size of the committee. I think we need to look at the skills that are in this Chamber and outside it before we decided what the size of that committee would be. However, I think once we get over 7 or 8 it becomes unwieldy and unproductive. That is not to say we cannot bring experts in at any time to advise us, as indeed do other scrutiny panels.

11. The Deputy of St. John :

Value for money is not just about the number that is tagged-on to a service or a product, it is also about the quality. Because management information is so poor in the public sector, could the candidate explain how he would determine value for money?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

First of all, if the Deputy believes that information is so poor I would want to discover that for myself, and if it was I would want to do something about it because, yes, you cannot come forward with policies and suggestions that exact and describe value if you do not have all the information. Value is when we use our budgets very carefully to maximise their value. In other words, it is very easy to have a project creep, for example, on a capital project. That is not presenting good value for the public, that is poor management. So getting value is about managing our finances better and managing our resources better. That is how I would determine getting good value.

12. The Deputy of St. John :

Supplementary? Could the candidate then explain how many C. & A.G. reports he has read? Deputy A.D. Lewis :

During my time as a Member in the past I think I read every one because they were usually very beneficial in the debate that we then had. I cannot remember exactly what they were but I have to admit that in recent times I have read very few.

13. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The candidate mentioned the remarks yesterday of our visiting speaker where he said, effectively, tough scrutiny and tough questioning raised the standard of debate and raised the level of competence of government and the Executive. Being that the chair of P.A.C. is arguably one of the most important positions in a parliament, and indeed the public sector, would he agree that the standard probing nature and the detailed forensic probing nature of the position is important and will he undertake, if elected to this position, to discharge that duty in the way in which our visitor spoke yesterday?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Yes, it is a vital component of the job. I am not going to claim to be an accountant or forensic accountant but there are plenty of people out there who are and I would be seeking their advice and assistance. There is an important job to do here and probing, asking difficult questions and demanding information that perhaps has not been provided in exactly the way that many Members here as Back-Benchers do already, I would continue that stance and, yes, I would needle-out all the information that we required, and sometimes information that Ministers may not ever have expected to be asked.

14. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Would the candidate agree that while it is perhaps Ministers that are ultimately accountable for departments that his job primarily is going to be having the Accounting Officers before him, in

other words, chief officers of the States of Jersey who are the Accounting Officers responsible for public money? Does he think that as chair of P.A.C. - perhaps to use a word that I have heard Senator Bailhache use previously - he is capable of skewering the necessary information out of chief officers as opposed to politicians?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Yes, I have had to do this with finance directors, C.F.O.s (Chief Financial Officer), accounts managers on a regular basis in my business life. They do often work in a little cocoon of their own. Unless you ask the right questions, you do not get the right answers. I think it is about asking the right questions to get the right answers. Ministers, I am afraid, you are also responsible for your departments. So you are responsible for your Accounting Officer.

The Bailiff :

The Ministers are responsible. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Sorry, Ministers are responsible for their Accounting Officer. They have to perform as civil servants and it is the Minister's responsibility to ensure that team is performing. They are responsible for budgets, strategy and policy. The Chief Officers and the Accounting Officers are responsible for implementation. So it is a team and if it is not working and functioning correctly I will be asking why.

The Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to ask any questions? Deputy Higgins. I do beg your pardon, I have seen Deputy Le Fondré, I am so sorry, and he has not asked a question yet.

15. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

Purely just to put a question that was put to the previous candidate. Has the Member ever viewed the activities or sessions of other Public Account Committees in other jurisdictions, for example in Westminster? Using that particular example, what is his view of the present chair of that P.A.C. in terms of effectiveness and challenging matters?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I am not overly familiar with the U.K. example. However, I am quite familiar with their select committee process which I think is very, very good. I think we should be looking at a process here that is similar so that when we have something in particular to scrutinise, matters of finance, that we do appoint effectively a select committee. That is a method and a process I believe works very well in the U.K. I have not observed in any detail how public accounts works in the U.K. but if given the opportunity through the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association I would be delighted to do so.

16. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As has already been said, the position of chairman of the Public Accounts Committee is a very important position. It demands a person who is going to be scrupulous in investigating what has gone on and should be a person who has obviously not only integrity but also strength of character, who will not be moulded by Ministers, and who will, as I say, examine all the issues properly before coming to a conclusion. Now, as the candidate is perceived, when he was the Minister for Home Affairs in a previous parliament here, not to have investigated properly all the evidence before suspending the former Chief of Police, Graham Power, and also gave misleading information either to the Napier Commission or to Wiltshire or to this House as to whether he read the Metropolitan Police report or not, how can the candidate convince us that he would be not malleable, independent and stand up to Ministers and do the job properly? How can we have that assurance from this candidate?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I am my own man and that is exactly what I did in that particular situation. I am not frightened of making difficult decisions and that is exactly what I did based on evidence, based on information placed before me, based on advice from the now Attorney General, from many other experts in their field. That is what one needs to do when chairing this type of committee: listen to advice, listen to evidence, see evidence and act upon it. That is exactly what I did. The Deputy has a different view on this. The Assembly here has gone in camera on a number of occasions to discuss this so I am not party to everything that was discussed, but what I can say is that Members came out of those meetings of the view that I did make the right decision and it was based on evidence. That is exactly what I will continue to do in the future. If the Deputy continues to persist with this particular line of questioning in the future then I will continue to be just as robust. This is a matter of confidentiality as well. The person you are talking about is now a private citizen. It is not right that this should be discussed in public. I was the Minister responsible at the time, therefore by virtue of office I was his employer. I am not prepared to discuss the matter of his contract in public in the same way that no other Member of this Chamber should be discussing the contract details of any member in their department. [Approbation]

[10:30]

17. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As the candidate mentions, it comes down to, I think, integrity. We are being told that he took the evidence of the Attorney General of the day. The evidence that was given to the Napier body --

The Bailiff :

Deputy , we are questioning him about what he is going to do in the future. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Yes, Sir, but it is important about whether the candidate is fit for the role. He told Napier he did not see the Metropolitan Police report and we now know from the leaked copy of the in camera debate that the candidate implied to the States that he had, that he had read the Metropolitan Police report, it was so damning that he had no alternative but to get rid of the former Chief of Police. He also said that the Metropolitan Police report, by the way, was not even a disciplinary one. The point I am trying to make ..

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

With respect, this is wasting time.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Sorry. No, sorry, it is not.

The Bailiff :

No, it is a matter for the Deputy . Come to a question, please, Deputy . Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Okay, the question is: how, with your past statements ..

The Bailiff :

With the candidate's past ..

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

With the candidate's past statements that he was given advice by the Attorney General, which he followed, and the Attorney General said: "Do not do it unless you have concrete evidence, including the Metropolitan Police report" and he went ahead again. So how can we take it that you had evidence and you acted appropriately?

The Bailiff :

How the candidate. Deputy , you have been in the Assembly now, this is your third, fourth term, you really must learn the rules about addressing in the third person.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Yes, Sir, I hope by the time I get to 9½ years and I leave this Assembly then I will get it right. Thank you.

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

We talk about integrity in this Chamber and I believe that Members have exactly that. However, Deputy Higgins and I had a telephone conversation the day before the election for the Minister for Economic Development and he said: "Let bygones be bygones and let us move on." The next day he put the hatchet straight in my back. So let us not talk about integrity in this Chamber. I do not believe the Deputy has very much of it.

The Bailiff :

No, Deputy . Both Deputy Higgins and Deputy Lewis , you may not accuse another Member of having a lack of integrity. You both know the rules. I am going to ask Deputy Higgins to withdraw any allegation of lack of integrity on the part of Deputy Lewis and I am going to ask Deputy Lewis to withdraw any allegation of a lack of integrity on the part of Deputy Higgins.

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Sir, I will do so but I cannot say I do so happily. The Bailiff :

Deputy Higgins.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I do find it exceptionally difficult to do this.

The Bailiff :

Well, you either will do so or consequences will follow.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

No, I will say this, Sir, that if P.P.C. are willing to look at the evidence on whether the .. The Bailiff :

Are you withdrawing the allegation, Deputy , it is very simple?

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I will have to, simply because it is the rules of the Assembly.  So I will withdraw it.

The Bailiff :

Very well, you are withdrawing. Was that the second bell?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

I think we should have some time added on, Sir.

The Bailiff :

Very well, we will allow a short extra period to take account of that time. Senator Ozouf .

18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

There is a risk that the P.A.C. becomes a political football, as we have seen in the U.K. with the politicisation of the P.A.C. I see both candidates voted against 5 Ministers each, the candidate certainly demonstrates the fact that he was not in favour of all the Ministers. Will he undertake for P.A.C. not to be a political football and rather focus entirely on the issues of value for money and getting efficiency and economy out of the public sector spends and Accounting Officers?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Yes. I am particularly interested in the Minister for Treasury and Resource's remit on reform in the public  sector,  and  I  do  hope  we  can  have  some  very  interesting  conversations  about  that. Absolutely, it would be apolitical, as apolitical as one can get in this Chamber.

The Bailiff :

Very well, I think that brings questions to Deputy Lewis to an end. So we will ask for Deputy Maçon to return. Very well, so now we have an election between the 2 candidates. If you wish to vote for Deputy Maçon you vote P, if you wish to vote for Deputy Andrew Lewis you vote C. The Greffier will open the voting.

The Bailiff :

I therefore declare that Deputy Lewis is elected as chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

May I congratulate Deputy Lewis of St. Helier and wish him all the best.

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Thank you, and I do hope that Deputy Maçon would maintain a keen interest in Public Accounts.

3. Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel The Bailiff :

Very well, so now we come on to the next matter, which is the first of the Scrutiny Panels. As I indicated to Senator Ozouf , although I do not have the Standing Order in front of me, the order is laid down in Standing Orders. Therefore we take first the chair of Corporate Services. I invite nominations  for  the  position  of  chairman  of  Corporate  Services.   Any  nominations?   Any nominations for the chairman of Corporate Services.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Could I nominate Deputy Southern , please?

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :

Could I nominate the Deputy of St. Mary, please?

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations?

Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : Could I nominate Deputy Le Fondré?

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Very well, so we have 3 nominations, Deputy Southern , the Deputy of St. Mary and Deputy Le Fondré. I will therefore ask the Deputy of St. Mary and Deputy Le Fondré to withdraw. I invite Deputy Southern to address the Assembly for up to 10 minutes.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I rise to my feet with some trepidation having seen the previous position almost nominated by a Chief Minister, questioned by a senior Minister and coached in how to answer by another Minister. Quite frankly, I am shocked. A Member came to me last week and said: "You gave the best speech and you almost got my vote. You are obviously the best person for the job but I was wondering whether if I voted for you I would get an Assistant Ministership." That is what was operating last week. This week we have seen a different but equally covert machinery at work in order that the Ministers should have an easier time as possible. It happened in the last House and it appears to be happening this time. The ex-Minister for Treasury and Resources in the last question session said the head of P.A.C. should be professional, tough and searching. Professional, tough and searching, that is what I intend to be as head of Corporate Services. Why Corporate Services? Because that is where the big decisions are made. That is where policy is laid down and the consequences of those policies are laid down also. It is no use messing around, I do not think, with particular departments when the overall guidance and the overall purse is controlled from the top. That is the place to be if you want to change policy, if you want to examine policy, if you want to look at alternatives to current policy. That is what is required. I have over 6 years of experience in Scrutiny. I know how the job is done. I know, for example, you need 3 things in Scrutiny, absolutely essential and the overarching rule: you need preparation, preparation and preparation. You need particularly to be able not to question, it is a secondary skill, but to listen. Listen to the answers that you are getting. What often happens is people in a normal conversation are waiting for the next opportunity to ask a question. In Scrutiny you must wait. Wait for the answer. Wait for the answer. Wait for a little more explanation. If you leave a gap a Minister will try and fill it and that is when you sometimes hear the truth. Not the first line, because that has been prepared, but the second and third one when you leave the gap. Time and time again I  have listened to Scrutiny hearings and  heard the opportunities missed, he was going to answer and another question came in, completely different direction and we are off in a different way. So listen; prepare and listen. Questioning also is a highly skilful act. We do not spend the years we do training lawyers in how to ask questions properly to elucidate information to no end whatsoever. You need to learn to ask questions and often the  best questions are the  shortest ones. The who,  what,  when, where,  how and why questions. Short and sharp, that is what gets you answers, and to be able to follow that up with the next question and the next one. Politicians naturally have plenty of opinions. They have plenty of policies and love talking. Politicians working with me learn to be a little less voluble. Ask the short question, ask it accurately, ask it often and ask it again until you get the answer. Above all politicians must learn to take their hat off that says: "Politician, I know the answers, I know what the solutions are" before they go into Scrutiny and put on a hat that says: "I am looking for the evidence. This is my Scrutiny hat and I am going strictly on the evidence. I am going to areas where the Minister probably does not want me to go because there will be no point in talking to a Minister about how well his latest policy is doing and how it is working to perfection, let us investigate that." I do not think so, we need to pick the areas where we think there is something worth discovering. Now, sometimes that is simply the Minister is not telling anybody. They have

got it under wraps. But sometimes things are going wrong and you go to that place, how do you decide where that place is? Where is the policy creaking? Where is it not working quite as well as it might? That is where you start with question time in this Chamber. The accountability of these Ministers, either written or detailed or oral or general principles, starts here in this Assembly with question time. That is when you start probing and that is when, if you hear something that sounds a bit off that is where you decide you might want to go there and investigate further, that is the reality. The fact is that Ministers have a fairly compliant House here. The role of Scrutiny and the role of effective and hard scrutiny is absolutely vital. Without it Government does exactly what it wants and is accountable to nobody. The fact is that when Ministers come into a Scrutiny Panel it should mean a period of hard work.

[10:45]

That Minister and his chief executive, if necessary, should leave that meeting thinking: "I earned my crust today. That was tough." It is not tea and biscuits, let us co-operate, let us be nice to each other. Of course we are polite, always polite, and we do listen carefully and we treat people with respect. But the fact is that it is work and hard work and if anyone leaves a session of mine thinking: "Well, we got away with that" then I am very, very disappointed. So I have the experience. I spent 3 years on Economic Affairs and I think looking back I saved Jersey Telecom from privatisation. I am not sure necessarily, with hindsight, that was that as good of a decision but certainly at the time it was, the evidence said: "Do not sell it, the evidence says you will ruin your communications industry if you do that for little return." I also spent 3 years on Health, Social Services and Housing, which is a massive portfolio and produced highly effective reports on a number of issues. What are the issues coming up? The skills are there, what are the issues? Well, the issue to start with or the issues that were floating around this last election, they were population, because that is absolutely vital, it affects every aspect of our economy and our lifestyle. The economy, the £100 million shortfall in taxation, is that permanent, will that still exist next year and the year after that? What do we have to do? That then says the balance between taxation and public services is then called into question because of that £100 million. So there are 3 starting points where we will have policy being made in the coming year and we need to examine that and analyse it clearly with some hard hitting and tough professional and searching Scrutiny, to use the words of the ex-Minister for Treasury and Resources.

The Bailiff :

Very well, Members now have up to 20 minutes to question Deputy Southern . Does any Member wish to ask any questions? Any Member? Deputy Higgins.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Would the candidate care to comment on the fact that with the Chief Minister getting his slate of candidates for Ministers and with the selection of Assistant Ministers, it is vitally important that we have effective Scrutiny and that Scrutiny should not also become like it is perceived as in the Council of Ministers, yes men and women? Therefore we need people who are going to be critical, not critical in a political sense but critical in an evidential sense, in going through, examining the evidence and drawing out where they get it right or where they get it wrong?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I have long experience of conducting Scrutiny and anyone who has served on a Scrutiny Panel with me knows that the final question, the final sets of questions are: how strong or weak are our recommendations? To what extent are they completely backed up by the evidence or do we need to revisit them? Let us make that "shall" into a "may". Let us change them. If anyone on my Scrutiny Panel has the slightest reservation about being 100 per cent able to back up the recommendation with the evidence then we go back to it and we write it until we are all happy. That is what happens. That is how you establish consensus, you get total agreement that what we have is backed by the evidence. That is the way it works and that is what I intend to do.

2. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

As the candidate knows, each Scrutiny Panel leaves a legacy report for their successor. Will the candidate, if elected, prioritise what is on the legacy report or does he have his own ideas now of what should be priority within each of the 3 departments that he would be scrutinising?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Yes, the starting point for any Scrutiny Panel taking over is to start with the legacy report and see which of those issues are still ongoing, which of those have the greatest priority and whether a new angle needs to be started early on. But certainly it may well be that the first 6 months is dealing with legacy issues, and that is perfectly natural. There would be no point in the previous incumbents leaving a legacy report if that were not the case, if people were to ignore it completely. So deep consideration of whether the legacy issues are appropriate and still current.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

I wanted to ask the Deputy about an example of where he went into a particular review where his political instincts may well have taken him in one direction but the evidence took him in a different direction. If I can apologise for the lack of warning.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

That is a difficult question and I do not know that that is necessarily the case because what I tend to do is a lot of thinking beforehand and it is about that stage of pre-Scrutiny, if you like, where do I think there may be a weakness? Where do I think something is being hidden and therefore that exercise in judgment is one that does not necessarily, automatically, reflect my political opinion but nonetheless what it is says it is using my analytical brain, not my political brain, there may be something that is worth investigating here and not over here. So it is a different sort of process.  So thanks for the really hard question but that is my best answer.

4. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter :

Would the candidate give some information about the positive change that he felt he saw as a result of his 6 years of work in Scrutiny?

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Certainly. The reports that we produced on the income support scheme, including better communication, including more information on the website, including a calculator so that people could see what they were due, and clear instructions, clearer letter-writing, reduction of the massive form which was devilishly hard to fill in - it still is to a certain extent, there is more work to be done on that. So, yes, although those recommendations were not enacted at the time - with time, and I have been around long enough - if they make sense and if they are the practical way forward, then people do pay attention. So 3 years on from my last report in 2011, which made quite significant recommendations many of those recommendations are coming through. The idea is if you get it right Ministers, sooner or later, do what is right and do adopt many of the recommendations.

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

Welcome to His Excellency, the High Commissioner from New Zealand, Sir Lockwood Smith

and Lady Smith

The Bailiff :

Before the next question, Members will know that His Excellency, the High Commissioner from New Zealand, Sir Lockwood Smith and Lady Smith are paying a visit to the Island and, indeed, I think Members had an opportunity yesterday of hearing from Sir Lockwood and by all accounts that was a very productive and instructive meeting. He has a worldwide reputation as having been an outstanding Speaker of the New Zealand House of Representatives. He and Lady Smith have just arrived in the gallery and I am sure Members would wish to welcome them in the traditional way. [Approbation]

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel (continued) The Bailiff :

Very well, we will take time out for that little intermission, but subject to that, any further questions for Deputy Southern . Yes, Chief Minister.

5. Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think all Members agree that Scrutiny during the last 3 years have achieved a lot by working constructively with Ministers and we compare or contrast that with the 3 years before that when the candidate was a chairman of a Scrutiny Panel where they were confrontational, to use the candidate's word "hard scrutiny". Does he believe that he is going to achieve something by reverting back to, to use his words, "hard scrutiny"?