States Meeting Transcript - 7th November 2014

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT

FRIDAY, 7th NOVEMBER 2014

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS ........................... 6

1. The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture .......................................... 6

1. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier : .......................................................... 6

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour : .................................................... 8
2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier : ........................................................ 9
3. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier : ............................................................ 9
4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ..................................................... 10
5. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville : ......................................................... 10
6. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 10
7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier : ...................................................... 11
8. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour : ................................................... 12
9. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John: ......................................................... 12
10. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ...................................................... 12
11. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville : ............................................. 13
12. Connétable D. W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence : ...................................... 13
13. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier : ...................................................... 13
14. Senator Z.A. Cameron:................................................................ 13

2. Deputy M. Tadier : ......................................................................... 14

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ...................................................................... 16
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton: ....................................................................... 16
3. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 17
4. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 17
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 17
6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : .................................................................. 18
7. Deputy S. Y. Mézec of St. Helier: ........................................................ 18
8. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade : .................................................. 18
9. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John : ...................................................... 19
10. The Deputy of Grouville : .............................................................. 19
11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour: .................................................... 20
12. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 20
13. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ................................................................... 20
14. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 20
15. Senator L.J. Farnham : ................................................................. 21
16. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 21

2. The Minister for Social Security .......................................................... 22

1. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement : ........................................................... 23

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 24
2. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ...................................................... 25
3. The Connétable of Grouville : ............................................................ 25
4. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 25
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 26
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon: ...................................................................... 26
7. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 27
8. Senator Z.A. Cameron: ................................................................... 27
9. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 27
10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ................................................................. 28
11. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ................................................................... 28
12. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 28
13. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 29
14. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 29
15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ................................................................. 29
16. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 29

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier : ......................................................... 30

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon: ...................................................................... 32
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 32
3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 32
4. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 33
5. Senator P.M. Bailhache : .................................................................. 33
6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 33
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 34
8. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................... 34
9. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 35
10. Deputy M.J. Norton:................................................................... 35
11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ................................................................. 35
12. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 36
13. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 36
14. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ................................................................. 36

3. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 37

1. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 39
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 39
3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 39
4. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 40
5. The Connétable of Grouville : ............................................................ 40
6. Deputy J.M. Maçon: ...................................................................... 41
7. Senator P.M. Bailhache : .................................................................. 41
8. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 41
9. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................... 42
10. Deputy M.J. Norton:................................................................... 43

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED ................................................... 44

3. The Minister for Housing.................................................................. 44

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT .................................................................. 45

1. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : ............................................................ 46

1. Senator A.K.F. Green: .................................................................... 48
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 48
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 48
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 49
5. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 49
6. Deputy M.R. Higgins: .................................................................... 49
7. Connétable M.J. Paddock of St. Ouen : ................................................... 50
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 50
9. The Deputy of St. John : .................................................................. 50
10. The Deputy of St. John :................................................................ 51
11. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : ......................................... 51
12. The Connétable of St. Helier : .......................................................... 51
13. Senator Z.A. Cameron:................................................................ 52
14. Senator Z.A. Cameron:................................................................ 52
15. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier : ................................................ 52
16. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 52
17. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 52

2. Deputy M. Tadier : ......................................................................... 53

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 55
2. The Deputy of St. John : .................................................................. 55
3. The Connétable of St. Martin : ............................................................ 56
4. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 56
5. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 56
6. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter : .......................................................... 57

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ................................................................. 57

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour : ....................................................... 59
2. The Deputy of St. John : .................................................................. 59
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 60
4. Senator A.K.F. Green: .................................................................... 60
5. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................... 61
6. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 61
7. Deputy G.P. Southern : .................................................................... 61
8. The Connétable of St. Martin : ............................................................ 62
9. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 62

4. The Minister for Planning and Environment ............................................ 63

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR CURRENT MEETING ................... 63 Senator I.J. Gorst : ............................................................................... 64 Deputy J.A. Martin: ............................................................................. 64 Deputy M. Tadier : .............................................................................. 65 Senator I.J. Gorst : ............................................................................... 66 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :........................................................................... 66 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :........................................................................... 67 Deputy G.P. Southern :.......................................................................... 67

1. The Deputy of St. Martin : ................................................................. 68

1. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 70
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis : ...................................................................... 71
3. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 71
4. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................... 71
5. The Connétable of St. Mary : .............................................................. 72
6. The Connétable of Grouville : ............................................................ 72
7. The Connétable of St. Helier : ............................................................ 73
8. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................... 73
9. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ...................................................................... 74
10. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 74
11. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 74
12. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 75
13. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ............................................................. 75

2. The Deputy of Grouville : .................................................................. 76

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis : ...................................................................... 77
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis : ...................................................................... 77
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ................................................................ 78
4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ................................................................ 78
5. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 78
6. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 78
7. The Connétable of St. Mary : .............................................................. 79
8. The Connétable of St. Mary : .............................................................. 79
9. The Connétable of St. Ouen : .............................................................. 79
10. Senator L.J. Farnham : ................................................................. 80
11. Deputy R. Labey : ...................................................................... 80
12. Deputy R.G. Bryans: .................................................................. 80
13. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 80
14. The Connétable of St. Lawrence : ...................................................... 81
15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ................................................................. 81
16. The Connétable of Trinity : ............................................................ 81

COMPLETION OF MINISTERIAL TEAM ..................................................... 82 Senator I.J. Gorst : ............................................................................... 82

CONSIDERATION OF CONTUINUING MEETING .......................................... 83 ADJOURNMENT .................................................................................. 84

5. Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee ...................................... 84

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon: ....................................................................... 84

1. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 86
2. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 86
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 87
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 87
5. The Connétable of St. Mary : .............................................................. 87
6. The Connétable of St. Mary : .............................................................. 87
7. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 88
8. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 88

9. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 88
10. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 88
11. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 89
12. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ............................................................. 89
13. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 89
14. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................... 89
15. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 90
16. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 90
17. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 90
18. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 91
19. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 91
20. Deputy M.J. Norton:................................................................... 91

2. The Connétable of St. Clement : .......................................................... 92

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 93
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : .................................................................... 93
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ................................................................ 94
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 94
5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ...................................................................... 94
6. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 95
7. Deputy M. Tadier : ........................................................................ 95
8. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :......................................................... 95
9. Senator L.J. Farnham : .................................................................... 96
10. Senator L.J. Farnham : ................................................................. 96
11. Deputy G.P. Southern : ................................................................ 96
12. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 96
13. Deputy M.R. Higgins: ................................................................. 97
14. The Connétable of St. Brelade : ........................................................ 97
15. Deputy S.Y. Mézec : ................................................................... 97
16. Senator P.F. Routier: .................................................................. 98

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED ................................................................... 99 ADJOURNMENT ................................................................................. 100

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

1. The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture

The Deputy Bailiff :

We have now come to the point for election of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. Chief Minister.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

For that particular position I should like to nominate Deputy Bryans. The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

I would like to nominate Deputy Tadier .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Very well, Deputy Tadier , if you could please withdraw?

Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

Can I ask a question before I go? Are we going straight on to Housing after this or is it Social Security?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I was expecting to go on to Social Security after this, assuming there is no hiccup in another place. Deputy M. Tadier :

That is a relief. Thank you.

Senator P.F. Routier:

Sir, the conversation about what comes next, I thought it would be the Chief Minister had the option of perhaps changing his mind at any stage if a particular election ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you for pointing that. Of course that is true. Deputy Bryans.

1. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier :

I received an email this morning from Kevin Keen, somebody I richly admire. I was hoping to see him in this Assembly. He was wishing me well but he had one little phrase that stuck in my mind - it was a very short email, as most of his emails are: "Kids only get one chance after all." I would like to set out my vision. In the next 3½ years there are things I want to achieve: a reinvigorated, inspired and inspiring teaching profession, an education service that is highly regarded across the Island and has renewed confidence and, crucially, standards on the move upward for everyone. I want to restore confidence and belief that a high performing education system is the route to a fair society. For the last 3 years as an Assistant Minister I served an apprenticeship that has given me a sharp insight into the important work that needs to be done to take our education system to the next

level. During that time I worked hard and have gained the confidence and respect of the unions and the teaching community. I have built on my previous experience working on a primary school P.T.A. (Parent-Teacher Association), as a volunteer at Brighter Futures, as the chair of governors at Haute Vallée and as a teacher at Grainville. All these things, as has been previously said by other prospective candidates, will allow me to hit the ground running. I understand education. It is my passion; it is in my DNA. In England, education has been under enormous pressure to change and to respond quickly. Under Michael Gove, love him or hate him, those changes began. It has been a turbulent, painful time for many schools but he put high standards right back at the top of the education agenda. Locally, some feel Education has suffered from a lack of leadership, a lack of direction and a lack of political support. It is time to change all that. The Chief Minister has already stated that Education must now be a major priority. I doubt there is anyone in this Chamber who disagrees. Education has been out in the cold for far too long. Now we have an opportunity to address those concerns and I hope winter is over. The darkness is receding and the light can flood in. Every year 1,000 babies are born. That means 2,000 anxious parents hoping their children will get a strong education and good life chances as a result. Behind them, 7,000 businesses in Jersey are ready, also hoping our education service can deliver students with the right skills who can develop a career and innovate. Later, when those people have got a change of heart or retire, they may want to reinvent themselves or retrain. At every point, education is there to step in and support them. This is a unique moment where all the planets are aligned and real improvements are possible. A new Minister, a new director, a new head of Highlands, 3 new secondary heads and 4 new primary heads creates a strong team across education. They can make a significant difference. We need to reach out to teachers. We need to support and inspire them so they inspire the children in their care. I know this is possible and have seen skills being passed from secondary teachers to primary teachers and on to children as young as 4. Teachers have suffered enough pressure from changes imposed from the U.K. (United Kingdom) and the uninformed criticism here. Now is time for negative attitudes to thaw so that we can enter into calmer waters. From the outset the director and I agreed on 4 major priorities. Firstly, standards. We are already seeing change. With the help of our professional partners, G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) results are improving, primary school results are improving, but more work needs to be done. I intend to finish the job. If teachers are to inspire students and reach the full level of their potential they must have the same expectations in their own careers. Great teachers should be recognised and rewarded, their good practices shared. Secondly, a Jersey curriculum, not Michael Gove's, not Finland's but a Jersey education for Jersey students, one that includes the French language, our local history and a greater understanding of our political system, one that is more closely defined by the needs of our community and aligned to our jobs market. Thirdly, autonomy: giving schools the opportunity to free-up their creativity, encourage new thinking and, where it is successful, share it with other schools. They will be able to make decisions consistent with the needs of their schools and their particular pupils. Just as every child is different, so is every school. We have remarkable teachers. They should be given the freedom to astound us. Lastly, working more closely with families. For many of the more vulnerable members of our society, because their own problems seem so overwhelming, education is given a low priority. We need to reach out, give help where it is needed to people who might never ask for it, and make sure that no child is left behind. Every child must be given the greatest opportunity and the best education we can offer. I am not going to be able to say everything I want to do in this short space of time, but I have a long list of considerations. Some of the others are we need to engage all parents in their child's education, not just at school but from the vital early years that can set the templates for life. Parents need to have a clear understanding of how they can help their child and be part of the partnership that successful education is. To help with that we have recently appointed a new head of Early Years. To continue the work we set out in the Digital Vision document, preparing teachers and students for the changes both in teaching practice and job skills, providing access to a wider range of qualifications, we will

continue the success of the apprenticeships and the Trackers programme, particularly in the digital sector. The Youth Service will, in its new home at St. James' and its projects across the Island, continue offering sanctuary, a respite, an alternative for the youth that seeks a safe place and our support but also some of the best opportunities to develop their creativity and let it flourish. I can assure people that although culture and sport will move to E.D.D. (Economic Development Department), they are so intrinsically woven into the fabric of our teaching the links will not severed. I will continue helping create a Youth Parliament. This is key in providing a better political education, allowing their voices to be held and holding us to greater scrutiny. Equally, it should encourage a new generation of politicians. I want to support the aims outlined in the Skills Strategy, inviting closer relationships with the private sector, encouraging engagement on all fronts. The new head at Highlands has spoken about the possibility for Jersey to have its own diploma, to create a new post-16 curriculum. He wants to take our vocational courses to a world-class level and open our courses to foreign students. A new head, with new ideas, thinking differently. One of my first acts if elected will be to bring everyone associated with Education into one room to outline what is our shared vision, our strategy, our expectations and aspirations. It will take positive energy, empathy, a sense of humour, creative thinking and clear communications to achieve the goals we have set out. I believe I embody those attributes and will, along with the Government's support, set the tone to lead the department into a new era. I will be visible, accessible and approachable. In my view, a good education should foster the development of good society and support every aspect of an individual's life. In short, from cradle-to-grave lifelong learning. It should enable learners to discover the life they want to live and help them acquire the skills to do so.

[9:45]

To achieve this we need a reinvigorated workforce, a confident service and rising standards. That is what I aim to deliver as Minister for Education. So, to close and for those who will recognise the cultural reference, for Education spring is coming. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now have 20 minutes of questions. Are there any questions?

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour :

Deputy Bryans spoke about skills being passed from secondary teachers to primary teachers and this rang alarm bells a little bit. Some of the problems, I think, that the education system has faced have come from this top-down approach and children grow up not down. I would just like to ask the candidate what he will do to renew the importance of early years and ensure that we get it right from the beginning for our children?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

The reference in particular was to what we have designed within the Digital Vision. One of the things we recognised, as I said earlier, is we have absolutely remarkable individuals in the teaching profession and one of those individuals is at Hautlieu who is responsible for the I.T. (information technology) Department. What we saw in that particular teacher was somebody who fully understood what it was necessary to do to take I.T. to another level. In the construction of the Digital Vision, as was recommended by Scrutiny, we began to develop pockets of learning and got them to share these with the people who were somewhat behind the curve. So that is what I am referring to. That was the sort of thing that I witnessed through a couple of events that we put together with regard to I.T. and it has been extremely successful. For the first time really we have seen a lot of sharing between departments. The evidence of that was there was a professor who came over from the U.K. who put together an I.T. event and about halfway through the event I happened to say to him: "What have you found?" and he said again it was quite remarkable. He

had never seen such a collegiate atmosphere and he was interested by the very fact that when he opened up the doors we had primary school kids, we had secondary school kids and we had students from Highlands. They had run around informing each other about what they were doing. There was no consideration; it was about stages and not ages. So that is really what I was referring to at that point in time.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , we have 10 Members wishing to ask you questions, so if you could be brief, please. Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Sorry. Well, I think that answers that to some degree.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

I have had a number of people come to me with educational matters and I would like to hear the candidate's view on them. One concerns a young lady who has been studying, has a degree and has done various other things to do with the medical profession and wishes to train as a doctor but she cannot get a grant for the final part of her training, which I think is altogether about 7 years in all, and she cannot get a grant from the department in the end. When we are crying out for local doctors and so on, is the department prepared to finance this type of thing? At the moment she is being told that she cannot get assistance. Equally, I have had other people come to me who are in employment and realised that there are redundancies in their own firms and are looking for retraining but they cannot get a grant or the Income Tax Department will not give concessions. What would you do to help these people to retrain, because training is the key to our future?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I absolutely agree that training is the key to our future. One of the roles that I played as Assistant Minister was that I oversaw all the appeals. We have got a fantastic appeals situation in Education. I oversaw all the appeals about changing between schools and moving for those who wanted to enter Hautlieu. I dealt with about 270 families at that time and it taught me a great deal. It brought me very close to the heart of what was going on in Education. What I would suggest to the Deputy in all those situations is doors are open. We are listening, there is a new breath of change, a new atmosphere of proactivity, and if anybody feels that they are not receiving the due regard to receiving grants and whatever, we will do everything that we can to make sure that that carries on.

3. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier :

What is the candidate's view on the current system of internal self-assessment at schools where teachers are placed in the invidious position of assessing their colleagues? Will he push for industry standard external assessment?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you very much for that comment, Deputy . We have a set of professional partners. It was brought in under the last director. It has had a profound effect. They are generally ex-Ofsted inspectors. They act independently of the school. They go in there and they see where the pinch- points are. They ask the schools to provide them with the kind of information you have just mentioned, to look at themselves internally, to make sure that they are up to standards, and then they place that against what they perceive themselves. Then the discussions begin to happen with regard to what they can do to improve that situation. So we do have things in place, the professional partners are there and they are working.

Deputy R. Labey :

Can I have a supplementary, Sir?

The Deputy Bailiff :

There are so many Members I am going to let supplementaries come in all at the end.

4. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary :

Two things in the candidate's opening speech resonated particularly with me, one concerning, of course, the French tuition and, secondly, the seeming move away from the slavish adherence to the U.K. curriculum. Can the candidate explain to me whether he will be looking at the way our European counterparts deal with the teaching of modern foreign languages in an attempt to try to give our youngsters the same advantages that the multilingual Europeans have?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you for that question. I was delighted that at the request of the ex-Senator Jean Le Maistre with regard to Jèrriais - I know that is not the French language but it is indigenous to the Island - we went across and visited the Isle of Man, because they have taken on immersion schools, they have taken on a whole new notion of bilingual schooling. It was an eye-opener to me and I went to visit a small immersion school. If anybody gets the opportunity to do so in the Isle of Man it is a fantastic place, but the Manx language is completely different to Jèrriais. It is almost like you had walked into the set of Lord of the Rings or something. It is like hobbits all over the place. What was interesting though, they showed us around the schools, they showed us the immersion schools, they showed us the teaching, and then just as it happened, when we were sitting in a common room, a young girl came in, a young teacher, and I said: "What is the role that you play?" She said: "I work both in the immersion school and in the secondary school, so I have a foot in both camps." I said: "Which one works more effectively?" She said: "Neither really. In the immersion school, what the kids end up with is a really good ability to speak the language but not such good academic results whereas in the secondary school where they do the bilingual, the academic results are very good but the actual language is not spoken so well." So it was at variance. I think it is important, and the Deputy and I have spoken about this, that we do pay due regard to modern languages, that we do look at where they are necessary to take ourselves forward with regard to not just education but for the job prospects in the future. So it is very much on my agenda.

5. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :

Some years ago when I was Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture we set up the citizenship programme in schools. So many years on from that, I find it is not taught in some schools, mainly because the trainers are not educated enough in our political system and our culture. What would the Deputy do to address this?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think there are 2 things, one as I said in my speech, and I know the director is very focused on this. He was quite astounded to go round the schools himself, as he comes from the U.K., and to see not enough local history and not enough citizenship was being complied to. So that is very much something we will be looking at in the future. But I will also say I said in my speech about the Youth Parliament. I think it is exemplary that our students have come to us. I was struggling with the notion and working with the Greffe and various departments to try to put the Youth Parliament together and then a letter was received by the Chief Minister who passed it on to me. I contacted the young girl at J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and she has now become very much part of the political fabric of our lives. She is intending to create a Youth Parliament before Christmas, the notion of which would be that each Parish will have 3 youth candidates representing that Parish and they will construct the parliament from the ground up. I think that is an important factor.

6. Senator L.J. Farnham :

I was going to ask almost the identical question to the one Deputy Labey asked. I think the teaching of life skills and good citizenship ..

The Deputy of Grouville : The Deputy of Grouville , Sir. Senator L.J. Farnham :

It is the Deputy of Grouville . I am sorry. Life skills and good citizenship are essential, as is the teaching of our own heritage and history, but we hear time and time again, especially around election time, the lack of understanding of our own political system. Students and pupils tend to know more about how the English Parliament, the English political system works. Would he advocate the teaching of our own political systems to our children in schools?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, you have my commitment.

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

The candidate has said that the unions have confidence in him. He must have done some talking behind the scenes then because 2 of the unions feel very isolated because the Chief Minister had negotiated with one of the teaching unions, thereby apparently splitting the approach to the unions. What measures will he take to reassure the unions that they are part of his future as Minister? In particular, he picked out Finland and said: "Not Finland." Why would he reject anything that is happening in Finnish education which is widely regarded as the best in the western world and one where the teachers are well supported, well resourced, and that is why it works?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I thank the Deputy for his question. There are 3 parts to that really. The first thing with regard to the unions, there has not been any behind the scenes talking to the unions. When I was dealing with the public sector reform, one of the ways in which I deal with things is to get very highly involved and one of the unions that approached Education in the first place approached me and she said to me she had observed what I was doing, observed the way in which I got involved in things on the ground. She was very respectful of me and had said that she would support me moving forward. There was a dislocation, you are quite right, Deputy , in terms of the other unions. I think that has been rectified. We have brought all the other unions to the table now. I have a book here in front of me called Finnish Lessons. If anybody is interested in education, he is absolutely right, Finland is somewhere we need to look. I will just read out a small part of it: "The Finnish way of educational change should be encouraging to those who have found the path of competition, choice, test-based accountability and performance-based pay to be a dead end. The future of Finnish education described above can moreover offer an alternative means to customised learning. The Finnish way is to tailor the needs of each child with flexible arrangements and different learning paths. Technology is not a substitute but merely a tool to complement interaction with teachers and fellow students. As a countervailing force against the global education reform movement driving school systems around the world, the Finnish way reveals that creative curricula, autonomous teachers, courageous leadership and high performance go together. The Finnish way furthermore makes plain that collaboration .."

The Deputy Bailiff : Deputy , the answer is ..? Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I will be very short, Sir. "Collaboration not conflict with teacher unions leads to better results. The evidence is clear and should be the road ahead." I totally agree.

8. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour :

The candidate mentioned in his speech the post-16 curriculum, good society, lifelong learning and an educational spring that is coming. Should he be successful in his clawing for the job, in this educational spring would the candidate consider planting a seed that will eventually grow into a Jersey university?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you for that question. I believe we already have what I would call a Campus Jersey. We have Highlands; it is highly regarded and it is moving in the right direction. I mentioned in my speech what the new head is implying he will be doing over the next few years. I believe we already have a Jersey international business school. We already have a law college. I think the only thing missing in a Campus Jersey at this moment in time would be something like an I.T. college.

9. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

The candidate talks about creativity, which is welcomed. Not all people, though, are academic and therefore sometimes are made to feel as if they are failures before they even begin. Other than vocational skills, what does the candidate see as alternatives to providing opportunities and choice for our future generations?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

They are many and varied. One of the great things that I witnessed in working with Highlands College in particular was the way in which the courses have evolved.

[10:00]

So people will not really know too much about, let us take the cookery side of things as an example where the course itself some years ago was nearly at the point where it was going to fold. People were not interested. I know there has been a great deal of advancement with regard to cookery in the media. We have now got a situation where students from our cookery courses, which are over- subscribed, are not only being taken into restaurants for people like Jamie Oliver and the like but one of our students recently cooked at one of the top restaurants in the world. That is what we are doing. We are beginning to look across what we need to do to fit those evidences, to fit those spaces where in the past they have probably not been given high regard, and in particular the digital sector is very much on my agenda.

10. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

We have all heard stories of young children arriving at school having had no breakfast, no packed lunch, inappropriately dressed, often in dirty clothes, consistently late; in a word, neglected children being brought up in seriously dysfunctional families. Can the candidate explain how in practical terms these issues can be addressed in order that every child has an equal chance regardless of their family background?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think the article in the interview that was given by the new Director of Education highlighted that very fact. He was quite astonished to come into schools and find what has just been articulated by the Deputy . What we have begun to do - there are some around the schools already but we are considering looking to increase that factor - is to give breakfast clubs an opportunity where children know they come in .. if a child is well-fed, if a child is nourished in all sorts of way, they are more open to, they are more accessible to education. So it is on our agenda to make sure that that sort of thing is dealt with.

11. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :

Grouville School causes considerable chaos on every school day because of the lack of parking facilities and pick-up facilities. I brought a proposition to the Chamber last July to ask for the problem to be addressed and the Chamber, by a large majority, backed the proposal. Progress is very slow. The candidate voted against the proposition, which I do not hold against him, but will he see the wishes of the Chamber fulfilled both in this case and in other cases where the Assembly so demonstrably expresses its wishes?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I am glad you do not hold that against me. At that point in time I think I was trying to make the point that if I am working in education I will fight for every piece of space that that particular school has and I was most concerned that we were losing some elements of what we had. But the proposition went ahead and I am sorry there has been a delay. I did not know about the delay. I will work with the Constable to make sure that we alleviate the problem because the best thing in the world is making sure that all the children arrive on time to receive the best education they can. So I will honour that.

12. Connétable D. W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence :

No matter the excellence of teaching staff, pupils may be held back by personal medical issues such as A.D.H.D. (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) and dyslexia. Often these are not identified and pupils therefore lose out on their education. If elected as Minister for Education, what would the candidate do to identify these issues and to manage them not only in the first instance but throughout a pupil's educational career?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think we have a very good inclusion department that is well aware of these problems. I know it is very high on their agenda. I have dealt with several of the appeal students that were going from one school to another. Generally there are reasons behind that and they are the kind of reasons that have been outlined by the Constable. I do not know what is being done with regard to those particular things and I am not going to stand here and say I will do this and I will do that if I am not in full receipt of the information, but I will take on board what the Constable said and I will look at that and I will see what I can do to achieve what she set out.

13. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

How does the Deputy believe that the Jersey education system can be made more accessible and equitable for all? For example, would he make available many more scholarships for the Island's fee-paying schools, thus giving parents more choice? Does he agree that the access to education choice should not be determined by ability to pay only?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, I do. Somewhere within the speech is the notion that what we should do is make sure that no child is left behind. I think he is absolutely right. There are opportunities for us to rediscover and redesign the education system as it stands. If it demands that what we have to do is consider scholarships then certainly that will be given the respect due.

14. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

I.T. certainly presents opportunities for young people but it also presents hazards. I just wondered what safeguards the Deputy might put in place.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Could you expand on what you mean by hazards?

Senator Z.A. Cameron:

It has psychological problems, addiction, that kind of thing. Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think we have a safety ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy Bryans, thank you. If you could be ready to withdraw from the Chamber and Deputy Tadier to return. When you are ready, Deputy .

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

It is not good when even your party colleagues desert you but I am sure they are listening somewhere. I stand here not as the Chief Minister's choice for Education and what is currently Sport and Culture but as somebody who is passionate about the department, about education and all that goes with it. This is the position in which I would like to serve, where I think my skillset lies and the areas about which I am passionate. In my manifesto only less than a month ago I did say that I wanted to invest in education across the board, not simply financially of course but in terms of energy and invigoration so that no child would be left behind. I have come to speak today not simply as the Deputy from St. Brelade but as a Jersey lad who was given a chance to get a good education both here in the Island and by going away. Were it not for the bursary that was made available in the Island I certainly would not have been able to go to university. My parents would not have been able to fund that and I would have stayed here, and I am sure I would be doing something else possibly equally or more happy but it would have been a completely different path for me. I wasted no time in going to see the Director of Education after the elections. In fact, we tried to see him before but of course it was too busy. I was very impressed that we have got this new director who has come in who apparently understands the system very well despite the fact he has only been here a short time. He has got a handle on it, he has got a great track record in the U.K. in the areas that he has worked in. He said that he has inherited a great team, the staff up at Education are great, but there have been problems that have been left to lie in Jersey. I suggested that not much had happened in the Education Department in the last 6 years. Partly I knew that from my work on Education and Home Affairs, which I have been serving on for the last 2 terms. He said you can extend that to 10 years. In Education, despite the good staff, it has not been standards or student-focused for at least the last 10 years. He said we have been looking at anything but focused on standards, and that is what he wants to work on and that is certainly what I want to work on. I spoke to the Chief Minister about that as well very shortly after also. I do have sympathy and I think I tend to agree with the Minister's stance that the current education system we have is not one that we would have designed. It is not one that anybody logical would have written down and said this is what we must do. It is something that has grown up organically in Jersey and it is, I believe, sub-optimal; it is fraught with problems. I think that is something that we need to deal with at some point but in the interim, in the short term, it would take so long to disentangle. We have seen from what happened in the 1990s, entrenched positions depending on which schools people went to, et cetera, and it was not easy for that to be resolved. So in the short term, and this is where certainly the Education Director is coming from, we must focus on standards. When we talk about no children being left behind, that is what is happening at the moment. For the first time in many years Jersey has fallen behind the U.K. It is important that we start to benchmark in terms of where we are coming from and the results that are being achieved, not simply the results on the face of it but what underlies them about the value added. That is something that needs to be done urgently. The director told me that we do not have a problem with the high-achieving students in Jersey. If you are an A or A-star level student either at G.C.S.E. or A-level you will achieve those grades. The problem is if you are a C grade student at G.C.S.E., or you are achieving Ds and Es that is problem. We are letting people down at the lower end. That is not surprising when we have a highly selective and in some ways elite system that subsidises those who can already be well placed. That is something that does need to be tackled. We cannot simply bury our heads in the sand and, if I am elected, I will do both jobs of instituting transitional standards to improve but also a longer-term goal. We know it is not easy because there is a big political lobby out there which votes and which the Ministers have been reluctant to take on in the past. I will certainly do that tough job and I will not really mind if it costs me my seat if it means that we get a better system in the Island. What do I bring to the table otherwise? I am somebody with a track record, even as a Back-Bencher, for getting things done when it comes to education and culture. I saved the Old Library from being sold off, which was a budget amendment I put in. Now that houses the Alliance Française. If that building had been sold we would not have that very great organisation in there, which we all support. I protected French assistants. They were going to be axed. Ministers said: "No, Minister, you have to protect these." That was my proposition. I brought requests for a modern languages review, which has just been published and again achieved unanimous support. Outside the States, I have served on the Arts Centre Committee. I am passionate about the arts and their development in Jersey. I have organised, along with the Parish of St. Helier , music events, jazz trios to come over - quartets actually - to play in the Royal Square at minimal cost to Jersey and the ratepayers. That was enjoyed by many people, tourists and locals alike, and the hoteliers of the Royal Square. Of course, I am a promoter of local culture and heritage when it comes to Jèrriais, the music and traditions of our Island. Like my opponent often says at the end of his emails: "Be audacious"; when it comes to languages and education more generally I am audacious. I believe in an Island such as Jersey where we have a tradition of being so close to France but we also have a rich tradition now of immigrants who speak their own languages alongside ours, whether it is Portuguese, Polish, French or increasingly even some Chinese, we should be teaching students those languages at the younger stage because early intervention, if you like, early teaching when it comes to languages in particular is where you get the maximum output for the minimum input, both financially and educationally. We should be aiming to have bilingual students leaving school by the age of 11 and I think we should also aim to get trilingualism by the time of 16. That is achievable in other areas. If you go to Switzerland and Scandinavian countries, it is a matter of course and they have their other specialities alongside. I am also keen to make sure that maths and the basics are taught very well. We know that there is an issue about students not leaving primary school with basic literacy, and moreover basic numeracy, and that is hardly surprising if we do not employ qualified maths teachers to do that.

[10:15]

If we employ amateurs, and I mean that in the nicest sense of the word - all-rounders - we cannot always expect to get high results in numeracy. That is not fair on parents, students or the teachers themselves. We need a longer lead-in for G.C.S.E.s. It is quite strange that we only start teaching the G.C.S.E. syllabus really in year 9, effectively 10 and 11, when people are already going and students are already going into assessment by that stage. It should be started earlier, year 7, and that would give some of the, let us say, less academic students a chance to get the grades that they deserve. I firmly believe in education for education's sake but that does not mean that, of course, there is a reconcilable demand for jobs for the market versus jobs for education. I think it is important to be focused on jobs but the way we do that is to teach people to learn as students and to be able to be flexible, and that is I think what the employers in Jersey want. They want jobs and people to be able to lifelong learn, if you like. I am keen about the idea of a Youth Parliament.

Generally in Jersey young people have been left behind. We have got 6 golf courses in Jersey that I counted, yet how many skate parks and how many basketball courts, how many Quasar facilities do we have? I will start to sum up, even though I still have got a lot to say. We heard yesterday about my ideas for the Latin quarter. Would it not be great to have a university in Jersey which also had a theatre, which had possibly Government buildings, which had its winter gardens all in one location where we could capture some of that vibrancy that Jersey lacks because of the brain drain often of students not coming back to Jersey. I will leave it there. I think Members have got a feel for where I come from, including the things I said yesterday, and I do ask Members to consider me for this role. It is an area that I am passionate about and which I will be happy to serve in and put all my effort into. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now come to questions and I call on Deputy Andrew Lewis .

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Does the candidate believe that the 14-plus transfer works? In some ways it demoralises good teachers who lose their best students and the students appear to lose the students that stimulate them and you end up having a less diverse and mixed abilities class. Does the Deputy believe that the 14-plus transfer works?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think it works but it is divisive. That is the problem. For those who benefit from the 14-plus system it is great because there is nothing for them otherwise. If you go through the State school sector at that age there is no other grammar school that is available, but the Deputy is absolutely correct. It is divisive and, as I said earlier, we would not have designed such a system. We do need to look at how that works but we do have an over-dependency in Jersey on the fee-paying sector which throws a spanner in the works when it comes to how we might like to run the education system otherwise.

2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

The candidate spoke about wanting to invest in education so no child is left behind. We have all heard stories of young children arriving at school having had no breakfast, with no packed lunch, inappropriate dress, often in dirty clothes, consistently late; in a word, neglected children being brought up in seriously dysfunctional families. Can the candidate explain how in practical terms these issues can be addressed in order that every child has an equal chance regardless of their family background?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I am glad the Deputy brought that up. It is something I would have wanted to touch on but for the lack of time. This is something I addressed very quickly with the director because one will remember as soon as he came over there was that front page headline which talked about children turning up to school not fed properly, not necessarily well dressed, and that has a massive impact on educational standards, much more than any building or anything else will have on them. He used a very interesting term. He said they are not so much neglected. They are very much loved in many cases, in most cases. It is just the parents are running round with the hectic nature of life. They are often having to work overtime, the home conditions and the housing conditions are not necessarily good, and there is a synergy there. We spoke very much about the poor quality of housing, the expensive nature of housing which means that parents cannot spend the time that they want to with their children. They are not read to at night, for example, and they are not loved in the practical sense although they are in the other senses. Those were his words, so I think that is the issue, and if there is other forms of neglect going on, but ultimately the point is to bring the poverty

gap down in Jersey. If we can bring the gap between rich and poor down and make sure that we have a fairer society where people do not need to work 50 or 60 hours a week then that is the way we do it. That ties-in with the living wage, et cetera.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

In addition to the problem we have over the selective education system, we also have what seems to be an inbuilt system that favours university education over vocational education. In other words, although people can get grants to go to university, they cannot get grants to go to technical courses, either in the U.K. or anywhere else. Would the candidate treat this as a priority and treat everybody fairly, whether it be vocational or academic?

Deputy M. Tadier :

There is a Frank Zappa quote, which is probably not parliamentary. It says that if you want to get laid go to university; if you want to get educated then go to a library.

The Deputy Bailiff :

You are right, Deputy . That is not parliamentary language. Deputy M. Tadier :

I withdraw that in that case and I will tell Frank that I am not very happy with him. That is a very important point that the Deputy brings. University education is not for everybody and it is not always going to be a good use of time or money. I think it does provide education simply to leave the Island and come back and it does not need to necessarily be done by going to university. But absolutely, we do not need to provide vocational qualifications and we also need to make sure that those jobs that are being got at the end of the vocation are valued both monetarily but also culturally. That is an issue at the moment.

4. Senator L.J. Farnham :

I think it was Deputy Hilton who said yesterday those who get the most assistance in society are those at the end of the scale or those at the higher end of the scale but leaving those in the middle often in difficult positions. Would the candidate seek to revise the assistance for students wishing to attend university? I know it is simply a financial burden that many of middle-Jersey simply cannot deal with. Does he agree that no suitably academic student should be prohibited from going to university due to lack of funding?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I absolutely agree with those sentiments. That is something we looked at on our panel and I have been surprised that we have been able to keep the grant system going for so long in Jersey compared to the U.K. where loans are almost automatic now and there are very few grants apart from the very worst off. It is absolutely something we need to address, but if money does become scarce how do we raise that, Senator? I think if we want to do it through progressive taxation, if those very high earners in Jersey want to pay an extra 5 or 10 per cent then that is fine, but we know that is not supported by the majority of this Assembly.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the candidate agree that the model for our education should be the Finnish one, and not the U.K. model, which is well respected throughout the western world and seen as the model to base an education system on because it respects and resources its teachers well? How will he deal with the split that has occurred as a result of the Chief Minister's actions whereby 2 unions have been seriously disaffected by negotiations taking place with one union and how will he bring teacher morale up to scratch?

Deputy M. Tadier :

That is a composite question. The Finnish model, of course, has to be contextualised in the wider economic and cultural model of Finland which has a completely different outlook on social provision, taxation and what the value system of their community is, which is starkly different to Jersey's. It is certainly something I support generally because I think it makes for a more cohesive society and a fairer society. When it comes to teachers, I think it is absolutely important that we have somebody in the education role who can take staff, parents and pupils and students along with him in this case. I am concerned that that has not been the case up until now and I think having someone around the table who is perhaps more sympathetic to the union way of doing things along with the traditional variety of Ministers will only be a good thing.

6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The candidate mentioned that he would have a focus on raising standards and that there has not been previously and this puzzles me somewhat because surely the day-to-day work of Education is raising the achievement of students. But I would like to know specifically what the candidate would do and would he engage with teachers and listen to their ideas, because surely they are the ones that understand the children the best?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Absolutely. Let me just explain one example. Those are the words of the director which tallied with my experiences that for the last 10 years the department has been treading water, despite the good work that goes on. I should have added that we have got to the point where Le Rocquier School for a couple of years stopped teaching and examining G.C.S.E. music and this was the school, of course, which was famous for the Le Rocquier Island Band that then does not even teach G.C.S.E. music, so why did we allow this to get into that state? But absolutely it is important that that dialogue and that faith between government and teachers is restored because I think that has been eroded. We know that teachers, despite what some people think about the long holidays and easy life they get, put in very long hours at work and are often increasingly under stress.

7. Deputy S. Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

You often read about schools in the U.K. and particularly in London where a large proportion of pupils there do not have English as their first language or even cannot speak it at all. Could I ask the candidate what he perceives as the challenges in Jersey for people going to school who do not have as good a grasp on English as you would necessarily hope for them in education here?

Deputy M. Tadier :

The students we are talking about at the young end, 3, 4, 5 year-olds who come from perhaps a non-native English speaking family, when they go into school that must be seen as a challenge but it is not a problem in my book because very quickly those students will develop to be bilingual. By the time they leave primary school they will be fluent in their mother tongue and in English. The issue we have got is managing that transition because at schools, for example, like Rouge Bouillon - it is again something I discussed with the director - they do not have the provision, they do not have the native Portuguese or Polish speakers, and when I say "native", they do not even have trained staff who know those languages who need to liaise with parents. That ties-in with Deputy Hilton's question about neglect. If parents cannot understand the obligations and the needs that are required in that community then that is when a gap can develop. It is not so much in the fact that these students will not end up learning English. It is about the fact that they may be put back and there may be wider disruption and segregation in those schools, which is ultimately divisive.

8. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade :

Digital skills will be vitally important over the forthcoming years if we are to have a successful digital sector that is not reliant on inward migration. The Digital Skills Sub-Panel last year made several recommendations in regard to the implementation of the Thinking Differently I.T. strategy for schools. How would the candidate make sure there is a consistent approach to not only the delivery of the I.T. curriculum but also the use of new technology in both primary and secondary schools to ensure that no child is disadvantaged irrespective of their background?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you to the Constable for that question. In one sense, of course, it is the students who are going to be teaching us and the teachers. There is almost a sense in which the teachers are the ones who are going to have to learn because often we see even young children walking around with one of these tablets who know their way round it better than their parents. But of course on a much more fundamental level, when it comes to computer programming and things like that, that is the language not of the future but of today, and if students are leaving school without those basics - I say basics for them; in fact for us they would be seen as quite high level skills - then they are going to fall behind. So there does need to be that joined-up approach from all the schools to make sure that you do not get schools but also students, as the Constable says, falling behind, because not everyone can afford one of these. That is really the key issue if you do not have access, so I think absolutely there is a lot to be done and it is certainly something I would like to work on and make sure that our school locally is consistent with the rest of the Island.

9. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John :

I am concerned that we are blindly following a U.K. curriculum. Can the candidate give us an undertaking to include a Jersey section in the curriculum that will include such things as our heritage, agriculture, our honorary system and our political and parochial systems?

Deputy M. Tadier :

Thank you to the Deputy for his question. Constable, sorry. [10:30]

I have got that in my notes, and I can show you the notes after. It is absolutely correct; we do need to have what I think I would call a local studies module in every school, possibly at different stages: at primary school .. we know there is some very good stuff that goes on already in this Assembly and that is largely due to the great work of the Greffe. Students come in in Year 6 and then again there is the possibility for the Youth Assembly here, but we do need it to be more joined-up, we need to know about our local culture. There is a Welsh lecturer at Cambridge who teaches Jèrriais in the U.K., so we have got people learning our language in the U.K. whereas we do not even necessarily have it over here. She said something which struck a chord with me: that if we do not teach our local language, and by extension culture, who is going to do it? Nobody out there is going to be teaching people to speak Jèrriais, it is up to us to determine whether we value these things and to invest in that. As I said yesterday, as far as Jèrriais is concerned, I would like to make sure that benefits from protection and recognition as a minority language within the U.K. and the wider European community.

10. The Deputy of Grouville :

Would the candidate agree that the professional partners are not an acceptable alternative to external examination and assessment of schools as they do not visit the classroom, they visit the headmaster's office?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think it is important that we have proper independent inspections in schools and that any issues that are flagged-up can be done so in the correct way. Certainly, if that is not happening at the moment, it needs to be reviewed; something I will take up, and perhaps I can speak to the Deputy afterwards.

11. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

What is the candidate's policy regarding special educational needs in the Island? Deputy M. Tadier :

I think that is critical, and what we have seen is that many of the schools which specialise in that provision are often seen as the schools which sometimes mainstream parents do not want to send their children to because, on the face of it, they do not always achieve the grades. This is where it is important to look at the value added. If you are taking in a cohort of students which is from a diverse demographic with lots of different social problems, or rather challenges, of course that does not always show up on the grades balance sheet at the end of the day. We do need more to support that, but we also need to make sure that all schools across the Island are doing what they can to provide in the increasingly acute area of special provision.

12. Senator P.F. Routier:

In many areas of Europe, the business community are now taking a stronger interest in what happens in schools and going into schools and building a relationship with the schools and the new academies which are being established. Does the candidate feel that there is a place for the business community to be a part of assisting the education system?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think there is. I think we have to be careful; we need to make sure that at all times we are teaching students how to think and not what to think. If the business community wants to give money to schools to help them, that is absolutely great. If they want to give money to help build cultural or sporting facilities, that is great as well, and I do not see why it cannot be acknowledged in the form of sponsorship. I would probably draw the line at some of the more extreme things that we have seen in the U.S. where Coca Cola and McDonalds are sponsoring things in the school to the point where we rely too heavily on corporate sponsorship. I do not think that is what the Senator means. So by all means, yes, anything that the business community can do in terms of synergies is to be welcomed.

13. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

In our current system, many teachers spend years, sometimes decades, at the same school. Does the candidate believe that the education system and the teachers themselves would benefit from moving around the network of schools, which surely would greatly aid teachers' professional development? Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

I spoke to one of the senior teachers at Hautlieu not so long ago and I think that is the angle he was coming from. It is important, if not so much for teachers to change school on a period basis, certainly to have greater interaction with other teachers so that the ideas can be shared. It may well be a 6-month or a year placement and exchange between schools so that one can learn how other people and other places do things. Even with Guernsey, there is no reason that we should not necessarily be sending our teachers over to Guernsey, and vice versa; that could be a great way to share experience.

14. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As education is for life and training is for life, and we need to have the most capable population we can have, what actions would the candidate take to help those who are either unemployed or working in an industry which could be declining, to get new skills in the form of grants or working with income tax to try and give some tax concessions to enable them to train?

Deputy M. Tadier :

I think there is already a lot of good work going on with Social Security; I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the staff down there: things like Trackers are very good. We have got to be careful that there are real jobs out there, that we are not just subsidising, in some cases, phantom jobs. But I think definitely there needs to be more dialogue. In the old days.. I have got family members who trained as an apprentice for a stonemason as soon as they left school; in those days probably at 14. They have never been out of work since and they have either worked privately in construction or for a States department. So it is a very good way to learn a trade and I think we can only do more in that respect.

15. Senator L.J. Farnham :

Does the candidate believe that hot school lunches, and in some instances breakfast, should be available to all primary school children and, if so, if successful, would he agree to explore the viability of that? There is no need to refer to the introduction of progressive taxation to do so; we know his stance on that.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Yes, we could start with reintroducing school milk, I think, which would mean that at least at primary school that would do 2 things: it would support our local farming and dairy industry and give children some nutrition for their young bones and teeth. Certainly there needs to be provision for breakfast clubs; they do already run. I think breakfast is probably the most important thing, but also hot lunches. I do not know if hot lunches are necessarily better than cold ones, but it is certainly something which can be looked at.

16. Deputy G.P. Southern :

What will the candidate do to eliminate the tick-box approach to assessment and recordkeeping, in primary schools in particular, where a student may have up to 300 boxes to be ticked? In a class of 25 it is impossible.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well then, we will wait for Deputy Bryans to return to the Chamber .. and, indeed, any other Members to return if they wish to do so. If all Members have returned, the vote is on the appointment to Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. You vote P if you want to vote for Deputy Bryans, you vote C if you want to vote for Deputy Tadier . I ask the Greffier to open the voting.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I can declare that Deputy Bryans has been elected. Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Can I just thank the Assembly and say that I will honour all the commitments made in my speech. Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier :

Sir, can I also congratulate Deputy Bryans and wish him all the best for the next 3½ years in that post.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Thank you. Chief Minister?

2. The Minister for Social Security

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes, for the post of Minister for Social Security, I should like to nominate Deputy Pinel. The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for the Minister for Social Security position?

The Deputy of Grouville :

Yes, Sir, I would like to nominate Deputy Judy Martin.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Yes, Sir, I would like to nominate Deputy Southern .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Very well, then I will ask Deputy Southern and Deputy Martin to withdraw from the Chamber. Deputy Pinel?

1. Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement :

I am honoured to have been nominated by the Chief Minister for the position as Minister for Social Security. Having served as Minister for Social Security himself, he understands the demands of the job and that I am capable of fulfilling the role. After 3 years as Assistant Minister, I have an up-to- date and detailed knowledge of policy development and the accompanying legislation; 2 major examples being long-term care and discrimination law. The Minister's role is one of financial responsibility, but a major role is also one of social responsibility. I have been part of the Treasury Advisory Panel for the last 3 years: T.A.P. is for the Common Investment Fund, of which £1.33 billion are Social Security assets comprising mainly the Social Security Reserve Fund or pension fund. There is also the Health Insurance Fund, currently standing at £86 million, utilised mainly for primary care; one example is subsidising G.P. (General Practitioner) visits to the tune of £20.28 per consultation. Another example is prescription and dispensing charges, which are very significant. I have run my own successful business for over 30 years; while not with the aforementioned budget figures, the principles remain the same: the importance of the balance of income and expenditure. In the last 3 years I have been a trustee of the Jersey Employment Trust, which encourages, finds and supports work for people with disabilities. The extraordinary success of placing 100 people in jobs has been very recently reported in the media. [Approbation] I have also represented Social Security on the Housing and Work Advisory Group which is responsible for implementing the Housing and Work (Jersey) Law and for issuing business licences, or not. As Members will know, I have been a chairman of Brig-y-Don Children's Charity and Residential Home for over 13 years, so was very pleased to be invited to participate on the Children and Adult Policy Panel and contribute my experience. I am a strong believer in partnership working; I will continue to develop this within Social Security and with other departments, notably Health and Social Services, and also supporting Education with school leavers and jobs. It is vitally important, with Social Security being responsible for employment law, to maintain and develop further relations with business groups such as Chamber of Commerce, the Institute of Directors and the Institute of Management. Also, the voluntary and community sector, Citizens Advice Bureau and the Consumer Council. Every good Minister listens to advice. My approach to the role of Minister for Social Security would be based on 3 principles: affordability, balance and common sense. Of course, this is not as easy as A, B, C but I think this is a reasonable framework to engage with our community and to explain what we are trying to do with the resources available. A total of £333 million was spent on benefits and administration by the department in 2013. While investment returns on the Common Investment Fund have been extremely good, there is an absolute responsibility to match benefits given to contributions received, in whatever form. The benefits should be targeted to those most in need, not a blanket provision. Last year, a total of £185 million was collected in contributions, but we paid £154 million in old age pensions in Jersey and overseas alone. With projected ageing demographics, by 2030 the number of people over 65 will have doubled. We again have to address affordability and balance. We need a working population to provide the contributions to support the increasing length of pension claims, possibly up to 25 years' worth. £75 million was paid out in income support in 2013; approximately 1 in 3 households receive a regular payment from Social Security.

[10:45]

My priorities, were I to be elected as Minister, would be to ensure continuity and development of the extremely successful Back to Work programme, incorporating all the incentives, training and mentoring in the schemes such as Advance to Work, Advance Plus, JobsFest, Community Job Scheme and others. We still have an unemployment problem but, with the latest figure at 1,450, the lowest since November 2011, it proves the scheme is working. I would hope to be able to target some of the help to parent returners and the long-term sick, those on long-term incapacity allowance, to support the people that could work, get back into work. It is an undeniable fact that when people can work and achieve financial independence, self-esteem and state of mind improves enormously. Due to the Back to Work programme, the numbers of unemployed have dropped, as have the numbers of people on income support. Discrimination law has been introduced, with race as the initial added characteristic. Sex discrimination and family-friendly law drafting will require review before introduction in 2015. I would like to explore a longer period of paid maternity leave and a higher minimum wage, but the cost to small businesses must be recognised and addressed: affordability and balance. Next on the agenda is age discrimination, combining with the gradual increase in the pension age. Bringing in disability discrimination is high on my agenda and I fully support the ongoing work on a disability strategy which will underpin the law. Social Security has, and is, benefitting greatly from the Lean programme with the introduction of better client service areas and shortening of client transaction time. I would want to maintain and build upon current service standards, improving ease of use, efficiency and effectiveness. I would also like to improve the accessible information related to available benefits for customers. As was alluded to yesterday, there is huge opportunity for collaboration with Treasury and Tax Departments for contribution, debt collection and compliance. Social Security is a data business: we are already working with the Tax Department for the collection of contributions from January 2015 for long-term care. Without considerations of affordability and balance, the only alternative would be to increase taxes, G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) and social security contributions or reduce services and support elsewhere. The C of A, B, C - common sense - to me is a given: I have it in shed-loads. What we do must make sense to our community and be proportionate and appropriate. Finally, as Assistant Minister for Social Security for the past 3 years, I have served my apprenticeship. At the same time, I share a vision of a society that promotes good health and social wellbeing for all and treats people with illness, disabilities, financial problems and those in unemployment, fairly, positively and with respect. Of course, it is not an easy balance to make and I think my experience over the last 3 years with the former Minister and the department at the sharp end of introducing policies, is of enormous value. The former Minister brought most of these propositions to the States with my significant input to them. It could be termed as succession planning. I am a team player; like all good apprentices I have listened, learned, attended every meeting available to me, which were many, demonstrated my ability to work with States Members, departments, panels and working groups, and at all times with courtesy and respect. I hope the Assembly will have the faith in me to take on the role of Minister for Social Security in the knowledge that I work hard, I am a good communicator, I am honest and, most of all, I care. Thank you. [Approbation]

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Could the candidate tell Members how many people under the age of 25 are unemployed and how many people over the age of 50 are unemployed, and what policies she is going to bring forward to get the over-50s, for example, back to work, whereas there is work being done for the under-25s?

Deputy S. Pinel:

A whole mount of work is now being concentrated on the long-term unemployed so that, as the Deputy mentioned, the over-50s who have been unemployed for a considerable amount of time, and a lot of the work with the Back to Work team and Advance Plus is concentrated on getting those people back into work, because they have normally been unemployed for a great length of time. As I said in my speech, being in work improves self-esteem and financial independence. Work is also being concentrated on school leavers, who generally tend to be the under-25s, to prevent them from becoming long-term unemployed.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I did ask for the figures for the numbers of people under 25 and over 50. Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes. I will get those to the Deputy as soon as possible.

2. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade :

Within business, there is a great deal of debate and fear within those employers at the moment that employing people is something that they are not prepared to do, in many cases, because of the restrictive laws that are in place concerning unfair dismissal after 26 weeks. It is something that is handcuffing business at the moment and it is not reducing the unemployment levels greatly, whereas if that were freed up, then possibly that would not be the case. Will the candidate, if successful, be prepared to review this and give any assurances to the Assembly?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I thank the Deputy for the question. Unfair dismissal has been very controversial. It is a qualifying period of 6 months in Jersey, it is a year in Guernsey and 2 years in the U.K. It is the Employment Forum's recommendation, which the former Minister agreed to for the 6 months. I think there is a big move to extend it to a year but this has to be done in consultation with the Employment Forum, the policy advisers at Social Security and the law draftsmen, and obviously with the business enterprise.

3. The Connétable of Grouville :

Would the candidate commit to undertaking research as to why, or possibly if, our income support system is letting those on low incomes down so badly that we need to have food banks in Jersey?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I disagree with the Connétable that the income support system is letting people down very badly; it is constantly under review and the mention of the food parcels, I am quite well aware of, which are mainly supplied by the Grace Trust, and they are largely being dispensed to the people who do not have a 5-year residency in Jersey and are therefore not entitled to income support.

4. Deputy M. Tadier :

Will the candidate comment on the practice whereby women who are aged between 60 and 65, who may be in receipt of a pension are being asked to go out there and find work, which is not always easy, especially in the absence of any age discrimination law?

Deputy S. Pinel:

The pension age is 65 and, up until that age, everybody has to be a jobseeker. Deputy M. Tadier :

A supplementary, Sir ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , there are string of Members wanting to ask questions. Deputy M. Tadier :

There was an understanding from the previous Chair that ..

The Deputy Bailiff :

That was yesterday, today is today; the rules change. Deputy Mézec ?

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Does the candidate agree with me that it is utterly perverse that the more you earn the lower a proportion of your income you pay in social security? Does she believe that the cap on social security for high earners should be raised so that we can fund better services and do not constantly have to cut things for those who have the least among us?

Deputy S. Pinel:

The higher earners I think the Deputy would be referring to is the middle-earnings limit or the standard-earnings limit, which is £47,000. The income is constantly under review, and that is being looked at at the moment as to whether that standard-earnings limit should be increased.

6. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase the Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I am sorry, Sir, could I ask the Deputy to repeat the question; there was some conversation going on on the right and I could not hear?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Certainly. The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase the Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I am not quite sure what the Deputy is referring to when he says: "Increase the Social Security funding." Could he expand a little more, please?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Certainly. The retiring Minister expressed the need that in order to meet the cost of ongoing Social Security needs .. I think he did refer to the Health Insurance Fund, but certainly the Social Security aspect, he expressed that the next Minister would need to be bold in bringing forward proposals to increase funding into that system. There are 2 methods to do that; which one does the candidate prefer?

Deputy S. Pinel:

By increasing the Social Security Reserve Fund, which is invested in the Common Investment Fund, it increased last year, with interest - it was an extraordinary year - by £92 million, but that does not mean to say that is going to carry on like that; it was a very good year last year. The Health Investment Fund needs to be watched very carefully because that has about a 3-year capacity, according to the latest government Actuarial Department report, and that is under debate and discussion as to whether, because it deals with primary care, this should be moved to the Health Department or the Treasury.

7. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I have been frantically trying to think of a question, because I was beaten by Deputy Mézec . I think we spoke about dentistry yesterday and I have had anecdotal evidence of people attending at the department requiring emergency dental treatment and being refused, even though they were entitled to it. How would the candidate propose to deal with that and also make those recipients of income support aware that, indeed, they are entitled to it?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes. There is a dental scheme at Income Support and I think it comes into a lot of the equations; that we need to communicate better with the public as to what the public can receive. I appreciate where the Connétable is coming from with this that people are not aware of their entitlements under some of the schemes, and dentistry is certainly one of them. Also, under the dentistry side, there is a dental review going on at the moment which should be available in the next few months, and also it was mentioned yesterday the Child Smile, which is starting in the primary schools at the moment, of which I am very supportive. I would like to look at the departments contributing towards that, because at the moment it has just been started by 2 dental hygienists off their own back, and I really think the departments should be supporting that.

8. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

I just wonder what the likely impact of the Babylon initiative and G.P. consultations is thought to be?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Sorry. Sir, I could not hear the Senator.

Senator Z.A. Cameron:

What is the likely impact of the proposed Babylon G.P. consultation initiative to Social Security? Deputy S. Pinel:

The Babylon initiative is going to be trialled in Jersey and it is a free trial, because Babylon is a private company, and it will be, for those Members who have not come across it, a video consultation with your G.P. to avoid having to do the visit, which is certainly very significant for the elderly or disabled who may not be able to visit the G.P. personally. So they can have a video consultation and G.P.s would have to possibly provide an hour or hour and a half a day of their practice time in order to answer these questions from patients. It is on trial at no cost, and we will have to see how the trial works.

9. Senator L.J. Farnham :

What are the candidate's views on zero-hour contracts and, if successfully elected to the position of Minister, would she consider tightening-up the rules relating to them?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Zero-hours is a controversial subject. The manpower survey, which will be released at the end of 2014, will release the number of zero-hours; the total of them and which industry they are most likely to be used in.

[11:00]

They are very helpful; we have always had locums and supply teachers, who work on a similar basis, and for some employers the zero-hour contracts have meant that they have been able to keep their business afloat. Some, reportedly - but it is only reportedly - have been abused but we have yet to find any evidence of that. There is a questionnaire in the Jersey Annual Social Survey about the zero-hours' contracts. In June, of the 58,330 employees, 6,050 were on zero-hours' contracts, so it is being reviewed at the moment and when the manpower survey figures can be put in then we will have a better idea of where the zero-hours contracts are going.

10. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

In many countries, social  security pension funds and national  insurance have been raided by Treasury Ministers, they have been merged into central taxation. Will the Minister give a cast-iron guarantee that she will maintain the electric fence between the Social Security Fund and central taxation, but at the same time will she also agree that the Health Insurance Fund needs a complete overhaul?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I thank the Senator for his question and I would not dream of letting the Treasury get their hands on anything that belongs to Social Security, and the Health Insurance Fund certainly does need a complete review, as I mentioned in an earlier question. As to whether it should rest with Health, bearing in mind that it deals with primary care .. Social Security would then be purely a benefit department.

11. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Would the candidate support the reintroduction of prescription charges for those that can afford to make a modest contribution to help eliminate some of the waste and, of course, make a useful contribution to meeting future funding gaps?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Again, this is part of an ongoing review in the primary healthcare strategy. We need to protect people with high medical costs, and there are options for doing this, but where prescription charges in the U.K. have been introduced to the 10 per cent who are not under 12 and over 65, it has been fairly disastrous on an income-raising basis, because that is the age group that does not necessarily go to the doctor very often. It is an expensive commodity: in 2013 there were 1.8 million prescriptions in Jersey at a total cost of £18 million to the Health Insurance Fund. So at this stage in the game, as I say, the review is ongoing; it is not ruled out whatsoever, but I do not think it should be a blanket under-12 and over-65, because we could not afford it.

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The candidate's answers on many questions have been rather woolly. From her answers she gives the impression she feels that the Social Security budget is too high, too much money is being spent, and she is going to try and reduce this. Equally, she has not answered the question does she believe that there should be a cap of £47,000 or should those who can afford to pay more contribute more to the cost of social security in the Island. Can I have some specific answers, please?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I have mentioned earlier that the cap at £47,000 and another at £150,000 will have to be altered in order to accommodate the demands of the social security requirements and can be raised; we are looking at raising that. We have already put 2 per cent on the employers' contributions, which could be increased, but in a time of recession with employers it is difficult, or we could put another percentage point between the cap on standard earnings limit of £47,000 up to the final cap of £150,000.

13. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Does the candidate agree that we should investigate introducing more classes of social security contributions, particularly for people who are self-employed who may find that the current system puts them off from starting a business and taking the risk, because of the perceived unfairness there may be in having to pay more social security contributions directly from their own pocket or lose their entitlement to pensions and benefits?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes, I do. I think a separate contribution, be it class 3 or 4, for the self-employed is absolutely essential because at the moment it puts people off starting businesses if they have to pay 12.5 per cent in contributions, so there should be a separate one. [Approbation]

14. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Just following up on the candidate's answer on the cap. If given the option, does the candidate feel that the £150,000 cap should be removed so that those who earn over £150,000 are making greater contributions to the cost of the fund in this Island: yes or no?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I do not think the cap should be removed, but it can be increased, as I said in the answer to the last question from the Deputy . I know everybody says it is being reviewed, but it is being reviewed; income support is constantly under review, as is contributions. So we are looking into raising the standard earnings limit cap of £47,000 and raising the £150,000 cap at the upper earnings limit.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Apart from looking at it, are you going to do it?

Deputy S. Pinel:

If the decision is recommended in conjunction with the policy team and the law draftsmen, yes. The Deputy Bailiff :

If there are no further questions for the Deputy ? Senator Ozouf ?

15. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The candidate has addressed the issue of discrimination  generally, but  could  she make some remarks about her views on discrimination for disabled people and how much the focus of her work might be on the issues that are real issues for disabled people in Jersey?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes, thank you. I am very interested, with my background of care with disability and children with disabilities especially, the disability discrimination should be enforced by 2017, after age discrimination. We are investigating it and hopefully might be able to bring it forward, but all these laws take an enormous amount of time to legislate: law drafting here and then the Privy Council in the U.K., as the Senator will know. I am keen to get it in in my term of office for discrimination, and waiting for the Council of Ministers production of the disability strategy, which will underpin the law and which I fully support. So when we have that strategy it will give us the framework to work forward with the discrimination law.

16. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I do not think we have heard anything yet about the living wage, so does the candidate agree that the most effective way of reducing income support payments would be to encourage employers, both in the private sector and at the States themselves, to pay people enough so that they can work full-time and make an honest living without having to resort to income support?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I mentioned in my speech that I would like to see a higher minimum wage but, of course, this is the recommendation of the Employment Forum. The living wage is a voluntary wage, it is not compulsory, and in the U.K. I believe is about just over £8 an hour. In Jersey the minimum wage is £6.63, which goes up to £6.78 fairly soon, which was devised largely for the agriculture and hospitality industries when the industries provided board and lodging. So minimum wage at the present time, if it is somebody who is not in the hospitality industry, is considered to be too low. A living wage would be higher but it would be down to the employer to voluntarily contribute that and, yes, I think it would keep staff for longer if they were being paid better. I agree.

The Deputy Bailiff :

That brings question time to an end, so I ask Deputy Pinel to withdraw and the Greffier to ask Deputy Martin to return. Deputy Martin?

2. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

Coming from next door, this is quite an easy task; there is nothing more daunting than standing in the Royal Court. So who is Judy Martin, and does she want this job? Well, my first instinct was, when I saw the slate, I thought: "No, let them have it and wait till it falls off the roof and smashes into a million pieces" but I could not convince enough of my other people who think politically, like me, to let them have the slate and, as they say, be hoisted by their own .. "façade" is it?

The Deputy Bailiff : Petard.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I know I said the word wrong. But who is Deputy Martin? Deputy Martin has been an Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services for the last 6 years, held complete confidentiality, and worked and been held up as being part of the inclusive government because they had a "Red in the bed" - under the bed - but she was a Red; and she worked very well for 6 years as Assistant Minister in the department. I was looking at G.P.s, making the system fairer for all. Do we make it free or for those who can pay? We are still working on that, or they are working on that, and worked very closely with Social Security Department. I worked on the Jersey Employment Trust for 5 years forcing the States to make the doors open for disabled people when I first went on there; I had to get people round a table. I scrutinised the introduction of income support and long-term care benefit, where both of our chosen advisers were asked by the Social Security Department to go in and introduce both of these benefits. The income support adviser declined because all of our recommendations, and his social justice, were ignored, but luckily Dr. Julien Forder, who was the long-term care adviser, went in and we do have good long-term care awaiting and to start collecting money in January. As I see it, there are 2 major problems that Social Security face, one of which is jobs. I was in the department on Wednesday. I asked about the 500 unemployed 16 to 24 year- olds; I wanted to know how prepared they were for the construction boom. You heard it from Deputy Andrew Lewis yesterday, they were taught to build a few bricks and knock them down again over a 2-week course. Absolutely mad. They gave me this JobFest document, and it is called Back to Work. It is in the Chief Minister's .. it should be called "Ready for Work." It tells you: "One-to-one mock interviews. Editing a professional C.V. (curriculum vitae). Opportunities in hospitality. Sell yourself in 500 words. Ace that interview. Health, confidence and success for life. Personal branding. All things you need." Now, you tell me, why is this done actively seeking

work? We did not hear it from Education. Why are these not going into schools for those between the ages of 13 and 16? You show me a child that is not engaging with education or training between those ages and I will show you a system that is failing and it is failing them. That is what we are doing. We have been told: "Education in Jersey is fantastic" and it was the outgoing Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - and he was outgoing at the States - who blew the lid off it. There are the kids who sit in the back of the class, they are not troublemakers; they sit in the back of the class and they are ignored. This is where you should be going. This is where you should be getting. You want these kids ready. Find out who they are and mentor them.

[11:15]

Do not tell me that at 13, 14, 15 .. they have always got something they are good at, and that needs to be encouraged. The next big thing, and I am going to show you some frightening figures here, is income support. Just remember these figures. There are only 1,000 people who rely on income support totally for their income, but income support sustains 6,552 households, 8,400 of these are adults, 3,500 children. So why are they reliant on income support? I will just read you the Minister for Social Security's main concern 3 years ago when he made his speech: "I am particularly anxious to find a solution to the ever-growing cost of funding social and private rent subsidies." So what did Housing do? They raised the bar to 90 per cent and put the rents up. A lot of people might not know the average cost of a social rented house is over £350 a week. I work near and I live near and know these people. Why are they taking £100 or £200 off income support to subsidise their rent? They are working, wife has probably got a part-time job. Because nobody looks at the bigger picture. Ask them: "Where is the carrot?" The best thing that Senator Ozouf ever did was the loans deposit scheme. Talk to these people. If they reach a certain level, Guernsey say to them: "You have got 3 or 4 years, pay the top rent, pay over" and they save it for their deposit. Well, there is a bit of blue-sky thinking there. They get them out of income support, they get them out of subsidy, they get the step on the ladder. Look at these figures: 1,000 of the people who are dependent on income support are under 25, so they do not even have a rent component. It is thousands .. £30 million this year in rent subsidies to the trust, private landlords and social. We are all celebrating the ex-Minister for Housing going to borrow a bond of £250 million so we can build. £30 million a year; it does not take a lot of adding up: that is over £300 million in 10 years, no interest. I am not saying all of these people would be able to buy their own home, but talk to them, get them in, show these people. You look at the page, it is so many children with one child, with 2 children paying for 3-bedrooms. They are all getting a massive subsidy. Do they all want to get a foot on the ladder? That, I am told, in Jersey is the biggest carrot you have got. So I would get these people in, I would talk to them. What have they done as well? What have they looked at, especially since income support? Children with a disability; you know who was here before, we know they got bunched into the income support, their families are fighting. If they do not get PC3 and now PC2, they are fighting for everything, they are fighting for respite. The form is not fit for purpose, it does not recognise certain disabilities, severe childhood illnesses for which they were getting money before when it was introduced and they do not get money now. No points, no prizes, no money, no respite, no special needs; just let the parents fight every department, and that is what they are doing. That is why they came to me and Deputy Southern , after they had been into Senator Routier, the champion of the disabled. S.N.A.P. (Special Needs Advisory Panel) used to come to us, and we brought the proposition to get PC2 through, and it was long overdue and it will be needed. But when I asked the question down at Social Security, I think the administration and taking advice is going to cost more than this £101 a week that these children are going to get. I want a root and branch into the offices down there. What most of them do is good. There are ways of looking at different things. Senator Ozouf asked Deputy Andrew Lewis how could he work with him as he had voted for the alternative choice; let us put it that way. It is really disgusting we have given an alternative choice. By the way .. I thought, as I said at the

beginning, long and hard: "Do I take this on? Do I challenge?" Because if I lose it will be sour grapes, if I win I have got to work. Will I be a thorn in their sides? Yes, I will be a thorn in your side. [Approbation] Will I look at things differently? Yes, I will. Is that a bad thing? Do the public want yes men? The Deputy of St. Martin is a yes man; he went on radio and said it. The public do not want yes men. I am not a yes woman but I am prepared to work. He is laughing .. I thank Senator Bailhache for his absolute clarity of what his collective responsibility is. I could work with it. I may be resigned by January, but I will definitely work with it.  [Laughter] [Approbation] Thank you so much.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Questions for Deputy Martin? Deputy Maçon.

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Very good question. I think increasing the social security cap has been persona non grata .. you must not look at it. I want to look at it. I want to look at everything. As I said in my speech, before you start increasing, how do you help these people? Carrots, social inclusion.. do not say to someone: "You have got to take that job" and you are a zero-hours' contract and they are worried how they are going to pay their rent or feed their kids. You have got to get them in. They are playing us. They are sitting there, they are claiming their bits of money, they are not breaking any laws. They play you because you will not help them. I agree, I want to look at everything. I have just said I am going to go right from the bottom to the top. Good officers in there. The forms need looking at and I want to ask questions.

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I hope, if the candidate is elected, she will consider reconsidering her pre-emptive resignation announcement. Since income support has been introduced, when the switchover was made from Parish welfare, there has never been a full review into whether its implementation has been effective and whether it has done what it is meant to do. So, if elected, would the candidate pledge to make one of her first moves to instigate a review into income support to make sure that it is delivering effectively to the people that need it?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. As I said, I spent over 3 years, and 5 years before that, with the ex-Minister when he was head of Citizens Advice, looking at social security and looking at income support. It was rushed at the end and lots of benefits were put here and disincentives and lots of sticks, sticks, sticks: "Let us hit them with this stick and we will get them into work." They are cleverer than us, they find their way past that stick, and the stick gets longer and the carrot has never been there. Of course I need to look at it. Would I reconsider my resignation? Of course I will reconsider it. What I will swear to this House and to the people out there, I will never compromise my principles, but I have never broken a confidence in the 6 years I have been at Health, and I have been round the Council of Ministers table, I have been on the oversight review for the hospital; never, ever, ever broke a confidence. Would I resign before .. I do not know what the debate is going to be. I said: "I can bring an alternative view." I will look at the glass from the other end.

3. The Connétable of St. Lawrence :

I know the Deputy is passionate about social security; I have worked with her on Scrutiny in this regard. She mentioned a root and branch review. Would that include communication to recipients of income support as to their entitlements? Because anecdotally I believe that many of them are not fully aware exactly what they are entitled to in many instances.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. I think there are a lot of officers down at Social Security that could do with a good teaching in plain English. I have been sent how to claim for PC2. S.N.A.P. do not like it, I do not like it, and we have gone back to the officers and said: "This does not tell them what they can claim for." Again, it is so fundamental - and the Constable knows - how they present a letter and then 5 days later or 3 days later another letter comes along: "Oh, we calculated this wrong." Yes, it has to be root and branch. I am not frightened. The officers are working within the law; the law needs to be looked at, the whole thing needs to be looked at. I used to ask the ex-Minister: "Have you advertised the food subsidy instead of taking it off ..?" "Oh, well, people know about it." No, they do not know about it. Yes, I agree with the Constable.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does the candidate think the existence of food banks in the Island is an example of the income support system failing a lot of the poorest people in this Island?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I do not say that the benefits system is pitched wrong, I do not say the amounts are pitched wrong; what I do say is the people who are on the food banks, you will get 2 families, you will get 10 families, you will get 8 families who survive very well on what they are given and you will get others who do not. If they are having a problem, these are the families that should be spoken to. Now, were they already above their weight? Were they in a lot of debt and suddenly they lost their job? So they are not just having to survive on what they are getting, they are having massive, massive back-bills to pay. It is all statistics. I know the people, you need to talk to the people, you need to find out why, where their expenditure is, what they are paying out and why they cannot afford the food. I do not necessarily agree that they are not getting enough money from income support.

5. Senator P.M. Bailhache :

That was a wonderful presentation from the candidate, if I may say so, but does she really think that she can work collaboratively with a Council of Ministers whose views she does not share? Would she simply not be a vixen in the hen house? [Laughter]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am no vixen and I am certainly no hen [Laughter] and so this is how fundamentally wrong this slate is. The Senator knows what the views are of the other 9 or 10 and probably eleventh Ministry.. sorry that is the twelfth Ministry they might have. Does he know my views? Has he ever sat on a committee with me? No. I am not there to challenge .. it has been a very sad week for me, it has been a very sad day yesterday. We had some excellent candidates who I know would do the job better but they are not on the slate, and they might look at something differently. Somebody said to me today: "You have got a Minister for Treasury and Resources whose officers he is going to rely on." Scary, absolutely scary.

6. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I enjoyed sitting next to Deputy Martin as a Deputy when I first entered this House 15 years ago, but does she not accept that it is totally unfair to describe the Chief Minister's slate of candidates as yes men and women? Does she not accept and would she not confirm that a Council of Ministers that arrives for a policy discussion in the morning is not a bunch of yes people, that an effective Council of Ministers has tense, difficult yes and no discussions throughout a debate, but it is at the end of the day that the Council needs to have a yes unified collective responsibility approach. It is dreadfully unfair, and will she withdraw the accusation that effectively the Ministerial slate are just simply nodding dogs? It is far from that.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, pardon me for quoting the Deputy of St. Martin ; he went on radio when Deputy Southern accused this slate of being yes men and said he is totally a yes man, and you are all looking "yesly" in the right direction or the same direction. Yes; the Senator shakes his head: bunch of nodding dogs. Look at the voting records of the people who are on there. The Deputy of St. Martin and the now Minister for Education and resources absolutely stood up on the immigration policy and said it was rubbish and they could not support it; overnight, they both voted for it. Do not tell me about yes men and women: get your facts right, Senator.

7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

How I wish Deputy Martin was standing for Chief Minister. [Laughter]  The Jersey Conservative Party are really scared of her; it is quite clear. One of the biggest problems I have with constituents coming to me for help with Social Security is often related to the impairment component of income support where many of them find that they are assessed as purely a tick-box exercise. With her background as Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services, if elected, would she pledge to review whether this is an appropriate way of judging whether somebody should be eligible for the impairment component of income support? Does she accept that it is absolutely wrong that people with health problems are treated like that when everybody's circumstance is different and people should be given the help based on their need and not what boxes they tick on an arbitrary form?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Thank you, Deputy , and I did mention that in my speech. At the very first hustings in Grouville , Senator Cameron .. or then she was standing for the post, said the impairment form is not fit for purpose.

[11:30]

I said it in my speech. I have got families whose children are born very, very ill. They do not tick the right boxes. They do not get the right money. Again, even talking to Senator Cameron, it applies at the other end of the scale. It needs to be looked at. It was pinched from some country. I think the U.K. has even got away from it. You will have that box, the officers looking at it saying: "Oh, it does not reach 7 points." Some of these illnesses, we have one in 100,000, 2 in 100,000. The consultant that is telling them: "This child or this adult is seriously ill and needs help" they ignore, but they spend more and more on advisers to make it better and go to tribunals. Mad, absolutely mad.

8. The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have been through some very difficult economic times. In terms of boosting more job opportunities, would the candidate be supportive of Social Security incentives to tempt employers, both new and existing, into taking on new staff, especially those small and medium-sized businesses?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, and that has already started. I do not want to stop any of that. I think it is fantastic. I want the kids more ready, not looking at back-to-workers, as I said in my speech. Why are we not - and I never even heard it from the new Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - advocating mentoring? Well, it must be right because I think he is bugging my room because he said exactly the same as I did at the hustings. Mr. Boleat said it yesterday. We need to have mentors. We need kids ready. My grandson, who is 3, can work my iPhone better than me, but he comes out of school knowing that because he is not taught anything. This coding Deputy Wickenden knows all about it; millions of jobs across the E.U. (European Union). I think Deputy Lewis .. we can get lots of people, incentives for small employers. I have no problem with that. I am not against it, but we need to look at this as a whole. I will be on the back of Education. I want these kids taught. I want them ready for work, as it says, not at 16. Sell yourself in 500 words because when you go for any interview - this was taught to me very early on - what are you doing? You are selling yourself and if you cannot sell yourself you have no chance. Know your product. That is the company you are working for.

9. Senator L.J. Farnham :

I am pleased I am out of arm's reach of the Deputy this morning. She must have had 3 shredded wheat, I think, for breakfast. Can I just ask the Deputy 's views on zero-hour contracts and, if successful, would she consider tightening the rules for their use?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Zero-hour contracts, I have friends who work in banking, health care, and they are fantastic for them and different things like that. Making someone leave the benefit system to go into something that might have 30 hours, might have 40, the following week you go into work: "Oh, it is raining" and you have .. and the Social Security Department is 3 weeks behind, so you still have to feed, pay the rent and clothe your children. It needs a good look at. I do not say they are completely wrong, but they cannot be abused. I am hearing there is abuse and that is what I do not like, so I would look at them. It certainly works for a lot of people. It is great, they pick their hours. It is not the boss who picks it; they pick. But when it is the other way round and there is abuse, no.

10. Deputy M.J. Norton:

I am within arm's reach. The fear of many in small business is employing new people because of the very restrictive laws that are in place at the moment concerning the 26 weeks of unfair dismissal, which is much more than that in Guernsey and much more than that in the United Kingdom. Would the candidate give an assurance or at least comment on that 26 weeks and where she stands on that?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

This was brought up at the Chamber of Commerce before the election looking at economic growth. Is a small business that close to the wall that fair employment legislation is going to send it over the top? The Deputy says yes. Twenty-six weeks, is that right? I did say in my speech I would look at all legislation. If people come to me and say: "This is not working" .. there are some small firms who cannot indulge in what the Constable of St. Brelade wants because their turnover is not big enough. They are quite willing to take on an apprentice or someone to help them with works. One or 2-man-band electricians or plumbers, they cannot do it. It is wrong in both senses, but I have just quoted those figures: 8,000 people relying .. and then again, on the low-paid jobs, £60- something million in supplementation to make up their Social Security payments, so someone is making some money somewhere. Now, I do not know if it is not the small employers and they all have their backs right up against the wall and the 26 weeks is killing them. The Deputy is nodding, but I would have to find that one out. At the moment, the jury is out on that one, I think.

11. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

A nice question, I hope, for the Deputy : what is the candidate's views on discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and does she agree that there is no place in Jersey society in any Ministry that she would be in charge of for any discrimination whatsoever on the grounds of sexual orientation?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

There is no discrimination on any grounds and in theory that is totally right. We just found out, what, 3 days ago in the U.K. every woman working the same job as a man is working for nothing from then to Christmas. So I hope the Senator practises what he preaches.

12. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The fact that this is very much a rubber-stamp exercise is illustrated by the fact that so many of our colleagues are in the other rooms having their tea without listening to the speakers, so they have already made up their minds. However, would the candidate please tell me from her own experience of going into Social Security with the problems that she has been dealing with on behalf of people the things that she would like to see changed or the approach changed?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

As I said, the officers that I deal with and up to the supervisor level are fantastic. They will meet me. I have to ask for a private room. I do not like the way that people's business is discussed. Some of these have been proud people. They have been made redundant. The last time I was in Social Security was a lady that had been made redundant, mid-40s, early-50s, and she had spent all her redundancy money and they were on her to get the 35 hours. Now, she was working 30 and she had to turn jobs down because she could not .. no, she was working 25, and some were 5. When I went in with her, I said to them: "She would fulfil your criteria if she left the job she is in earning twice as much as the 30 hours on minimum wage, but took one of these jobs that she could walk into at 35 hours?" They said: "No, we do not want her to do that." I said: "No, well, get off her back then." Because this has to be a bit of common sense. If you are earning £13 an hour but you are not doing your 35 hours, you are not claiming much. So the answer is the form, like Deputy Mézec said, income support like the Constable of St. Lawrence said, how they are assessed, how people are told what benefits there are, and it is about finding out what they need right at the beginning and finding out what support they have. When you are pushing them into work, what other things do they really need to fulfil at the end of the day? I think with the bottom line always in view, as I say, you miss at your own peril. You do the same as the now elected Minister, keep doing the same, people will keep playing us. They will keep claiming their £30 million a year in rent subsidies. £30 million, over 8,000 people reliant on income support, over 7,500 of them working. You work it out.

13. Senator P.F. Routier:

The Minister for Social Security would be part of the Housing Advisory and Work Group considering applications for people to bring in new people into the Island. They make applications for when they say that there are no skills already in the Island. Can the candidate give an indication of how she would approach those sorts of decisions?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I have no problem and I think only ever once or even twice in the last 3 years agreed with Deputy Baker. He made a fantastic speech on immigration and he said, yes, if you need skills, bring them in, but at the same time do something positive. We have to now really look at who is wandering around. Who is wandering into this Island? Who is taking the low-paid jobs? You do not even have to be employed for 5 years. You could come over and look after your daughter's children and after 5 years you get full income support. You cannot make it up.