States Meeting Transcript - 20th January 2015

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 20th JANUARY 2015

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................6

1. The Bailiff :................................................................................6

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS QUESTIONS...........6

2. Nomination of Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier as a member of the Public Accounts Committee ................................................................................6

2.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier (Chairman, Public Accounts Committee):..............6

QUESTIONS......................................................................................6

3. Written Questions........................................................................6
4. Oral Questions...........................................................................19

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding ......................19 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................19

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................19
2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................20

3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................20
4. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:....................................................20
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................21
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................21
7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................21
8. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................21
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................22
10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................22

2. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding ..............................................................................23 Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..........23

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................23
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................23

3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................24
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................24

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding ........24 Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (The Minister for Planning and Environment): ..............24

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................25
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................25

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding ..........26 Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):.........................26

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................26

2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................26
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27
   5. Deputy J.A. Hilton of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding ..............28 Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):.............................................................................28

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................28
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................28
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................29
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................29
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................29
6. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary:........................................................30
7. The Deputy of St. Mary:................................................................30
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................30
9. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................30

6. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding .. .........................................................................................31 Deputy E.J. Noel (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):..............31

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................31
2. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................31
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................32
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................32
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................33
8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................33

7. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding ....................33 Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................33

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................34
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................35
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................35

8. Deputy J.A. Hilton of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding ...........35 Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):.............................................................................36

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................36
2. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville :........................................................36
3. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................37
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................37
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................37
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38
9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................38

10. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................38

9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of the Minister for Economic Development regarding .............38 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Minister for Economic Development - rapporteur): .........38

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................39
2. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................39

3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................40
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................40
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................40
6. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................41
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................41

10. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding ...........42 Deputy E.J. Noel (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):..............42

1. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................42
2. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................42
3. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................42
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................43
5. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................43

11. Deputy J.A. Martin of the Minister for Social Security regarding ......................43 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................43

1. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................44
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................44
3. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................45 The Connétable of St. Peter:..................................................................45

5. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Minister for Economic Development..45

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................45 Senator L.J. Farnham (The Minister for Economic Development):............................45

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................46
   2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................46
   3. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................46

5.3.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................46

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

5.4.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................47

5. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................47
6. Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade : ....................................................47
7. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary : ...................................................48
8. Deputy R.J. Rondel of St. Helier:.......................................................48

5.8.1 Deputy R.J. Rondel:....................................................................48

9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................48

5.9.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................49

10. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................49

5.10.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................49

11. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................49

6. Questions to Ministers Without Notice - The Chief Minister..........................50

1. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................50 Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................50
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................50

6.2.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................51

3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................51
4. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:..........................................................51
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................52
6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52

6.6.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................52

7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................53

6.7.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................53

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................54

7. Gas Place: petition (P.156/2014)........................................................54

7.1 The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................54

1. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................59
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache : ................................................................60
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................61
4. Senator P.F. Routier: ...................................................................62
5. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:..................................................62
6. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................62
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................63
8. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John : ....................................................64

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................64 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................64

9. Deputy R.G. Bryans: ...................................................................64
10. Deputy M Tadier :....................................................................65
11. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................66
12. The Connétable of St. Clement:......................................................67
13. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : .......................................................67
14. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................68
15. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................69
16. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..............................................................70
17. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:...............................................70
18. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen : ....................................................71
19. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................71
20. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................72
21. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................73
22. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................74
23. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................76
24. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................77

8. Jersey Arts Trust: re-appointment of Chairman (P.167/2014) ........................80

8.1 Deputy R.G. Bryans (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):..................81

9. Armed Forces Covenant and Community Covenant (P.168/2014) ....................81

9.1 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter (The Minister for Home Affairs):......................81

10. Council of Ministers' Meetings: public access (P.163/2014)............................83

10.1 Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................83

1. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................85
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................86
3. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................88
4. Senator Z.A. Cameron:..............................................................89
5. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................89
6. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................90

11. Draft Act annulling the Employment (Qualifying Period) (Jersey) Order 2014 (P.169/2014)..............................................................................93

11.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................93

1. Deputy S.J. Pinel:....................................................................96
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................98
3. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ..................................................99
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: ................................................................100
5. Senator P.F. Routier:...............................................................101

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................103

The Roll was called and the Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Bailiff :

As this is the last occasion I shall have the opportunity of doing so I am delighted to welcome His Excellency. [Approbation] I am also very pleased to welcome back all Members. I trust you are suitably refreshed after the Christmas and New Year break and there was no over-imbibing.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Nomination of Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier as a member of the Public Accounts Committee

The Bailiff :

I understand there is to be a nomination to the Public Accounts Committee, Chairman.

2.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier (Chairman, Public Accounts Committee):

I would like to nominate Deputy Judy Martin to sit on the P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee. The Bailiff :

How many members are you now going to have on the panel?

Deputy A.D. Lewis :

The intention is to have 7, as we are also hoping to announce in February the appointment of 3 lay members.

The Bailiff :

Is that nomination seconded?  [Seconded] Any other nominations to the Public Accounts Committee? Then I have pleasure in announcing that Deputy Martin is elected as a member of the Public Accounts Committee. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY A.D. LEWIS OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURYAND RESOURCES REGARDING THE DELIVERY OF GIGABIT JERSEY:

Question

In response to question 8540 on 25th November 2014 the Minister provided an update on the status of the delivery of Gigabit Jersey (Homes and Business) connections against the following three project elements:

1. Core Network Equipment – 100% complete
2. Premises Passed Network – 98% complete
3. Premises Connected – 33% complete

With the first 2 elements of the project now virtually completed will the Minister, as shareholder representative, confirm:

1. The total amount spent on the project to date;
2. The total amount spent to date on each of the three elements of the project as identified above; and
3. Why  the  stated  number  of  properties  now  targeted  for  connection  under  Premises Connected' totals, as given on 25th November 2014, of 34,875 now differs from the 44,000 homes originally targeted to be connected as part of the Ministerial funding approval in 2011 and the 52,000 homes referred to by the Chief Executive Officer of Jersey Telecom in

the Jersey Evening Post on 17th August 2013?

Answer

Part a) and b)

Part c)

The Minister is advised that the difference between the original business case (44,000) and the updated 2013 business case (34,875) relates to JT's decision to focus on broadband connections and to leave JT voice-only subscribers until a later phase. The Minister is advised that the change in project delivery was explained in detail to States members at a presentation by JT on 4 March 2013 (at the Pomme d'Or Hotel) and to the Public Accounts Committee on 10 June 2013, as well as in answers to States questions since the programme was started.

JT has advised the Minister that the Jersey Evening Post reference of 52,000 is not a quoted remark of the Chief Executive Officer. It is clear from the article that the journalist confused the Premises Passed and Premises Connected elements of the rollout.

2. DEPUTY S.Y. MEZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMITÉ DES CONNÉTABLES REGARDING PARISH ASSEMBLIES:

Question

Could the Chairman of the Comité des Connétable s provide a breakdown by parish and year of how many times in the past 5 years parishioners have utilised Article 9 of the Loi (1804) au Sujet des Assemblées Paroissiales'  to  instigate  a  Parish  Assembly  and,  if  possible, provide  details  of  the  subjects  of  those Assemblies?

Answer

Parish of St Clement Year: 2012

Subject: "Consider the merits of the proposition of the Privileges and Procedures Committee (Projet 5 of 2012, Electoral Commission: composition and terms of reference) and further to consider the amendments thereto lodged by Deputy R G Le Herissier and to decide whether or not to express support for those amendments and advise the Connétable , the two Deputies and the ten Senators accordingly."

Parish of St Helier Year: 2012

Subject: "To consider the merits of the proposition of the Privileges and Procedures Committee (Projet 5 of 2012, Electoral Commission: composition and terms of reference)  and further to consider the amendments thereto lodged by Deputy R G Le Herissier and to decide whether or not to express support for those amendments and advise the Connétable , the ten deputies and the ten senators accordingly"

Year: 2013

Subject: "To consider the merits of options A, B or C as set out in the report of the Electoral Commission of January 2013 ahead of the Referendum on States Reform due to be held on 24 April 2013, and following a vote by show of hands, that the outcome of the meeting be made known to the Constable of St Helier, the ten Parish Deputies and the ten Senators."

Parish of St Ouen Year: 2013

Subject: "To decide whether the Parish should lodge a third party appeal against the Minister of Planning and Environment's decision to grant permission for the re-development of the Plemont Bay Holiday Village."

Subject: "To consider whether the Parish should make representation to the Minister for Planning and Environment to remove Field 622, La Rue de la Croute, from the Interim Review of the 2011 Island Plan and to decide thereon."

Parish of St Saviour Year: 2011

Subject: "(a) To consider whether Parishioners support the proposal in the Draft Island Plan to designate field no. 528 as a part of the Island's Green Zone and decide thereon:

2. To consider whether Parishioners objecttoany form of development on field no.528and

decide thereon:

3. To consider whether Parishioners wish to call upon all their elected parochial

representatives to oppose any attempt to develop buildings on field no. 528 and decide thereon."

St Brelade, Grouville , St John, St Lawrence, St Martin, St Mary, St Peter and Trinity received no such requests in this timescale.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT REGARDING JOB OPPORTUNITIES ARISING FROM LOCATE JERSEY:

Question

In P.55/2012 the previous Minister produced a table showing the "job opportunities" arising from the success of Locate Jersey in encouraging inward investment through the business licences granted to the 128 foreign-owned companies which set up in the 4-year period from 2008 to 2011. Can the Minister state how many of these opportunities have been converted into real jobs, and if not, why not?

Can the Minister further state whether he considers that the figures shown represent successful diversification of the economy when they reveal that 30% of both businesses and jobs are in the finance sector?

Can the Minister also inform members how many of these jobs were high-value jobs in line with strategic aims and how many were low-value jobs, and if not, in the light of his predecessor's commitments to seek this data, why not?

Will the Minister liaise with the Minister for Treasury and Resources to establish what taxes and/or revenues have been paid by those 35 finance sector companies subject to the 10% rate and what income tax has been paid by the 937 employees of these companies either overall or by sector over the period to date, and if not, why not?

Answer

Businesses in Jersey are required to submit half yearly manpower returns to the Population Office. The most recent return is not due until the end of January and will be reported on by the Statistics Unit later this year. Using the most recent manpower statistics available (June 2014) from inward investment businesses assisted by the department between 2008 and 2011, these businesses have a total of 896 individuals working for them of which 83% were entitled posts. This is a total of 743 jobs created for people with entitled status.

The inward investment activity carried out by Locate Jersey is done irrespective of sector. 70% of businesses and job creation in non-financial' related services is an enormously positive step towards successful diversification of the economy. Trends in the last three years include Retail and Hospitality, Real Estate and Private Equity Funds, Hedge Funds, Fintech, Digital/IT, Family Offices, Natural Resources, Corporate Services and Payroll and Recruitment.

Diversification of the economy does not mean solely focussing on developing businesses outside of the finance industry. Jersey's finance industry, which is already diverse in nature, continues to diversify itself to meet changing global demands. Jersey's outstanding reputation as a centre of excellence for financial services and much-respected regulatory system means that the Island continues to attract both businesses operating in financial services and ancillary businesses related to that sector. More than 40% of GVA comes from financial service-related businesses. With increased productivity and services being a priority, Locate Jersey will continue to work closely with Jersey Finance Limited and other representative bodies in this sector.

As stated on previous occasions, my department is not privy to tax paid by individual businesses or persons. This is confidential information between the business and / or their employees and the Income Tax Office. These activities do generate new tax revenue for Jersey and we will continue to support them. I would be pleased to arrange for the Deputy to visit the Department so we can explain the nature of our work and the benefits to Jersey to him.

4. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING TAX REVENUES:

Question

In the light of the projected £80m+ shortfall in tax revenues in the 2015 budget, what quantative evidence, if any, does the Minister have to indicate that the policy of encouraging inward investment, which has produced 128 new business start-ups in the period 2008 to 2011 (see P.55/2012 for example), has generated increased tax revenues over the period to date, and, if none, does the Minister consider that this policy has failed?

Is it the case that the shortfall represents a "structural deficit (which) arises simply because the tax base will have shrunk" as stated by the Minister's predecessor in November 2009 (Question (4886) refers) and what measures, if any, does the Minister have under consideration to generate additional revenues in 2015 and onward into 2016 and 2017?

Answer

The policy of encouraging inward investment has not failed. Inward investment businesses assisted by Economic Development between 2008 and 2011 have a total of 896 individuals working for them of which 83% were entitled posts. The policy continued to be successful in 2014 with Locate Jersey dealing with a further 158 business enquiries, creating 361 potential job opportunities in areas as diverse as construction, retail and fintech. Where these activities result in new and additional employment opportunities this will help spur economic growth and generate additional tax revenues.

The shortfall referred to by the Deputy is misleading as it is a cumulative total over several years, not an annual shortfall. It is not clear the extent to which the annual shortfall in tax revenues identified in Budget 2015 is structural and the FPP will be reporting at the end this month to give us further advice on assessing the structural position of States finances. In the meantime we continue to follow FPP advice that "If there is a structural deficit in the public finances, the States should plan to address it once the economy has recovered. Structural changes in taxation, or expenditure programmes are easier to introduce once the economic recovery is fully established."

The foundations for returning the economy to growth were set  in the Economic Growth and Diversification Strategy approved by the States July 2012 and the 2014/15 Enterprise Strategy. The Council of Ministers has economic growth as one of the key priorities for the next Strategic Plan (2015-2018) as it continues to be a significant driver of job creation and revenue growth. The Plan will be debated by the States but it is clear that we need a renewed focus on all aspects of economic growth and productivity – enterprise, innovation, inward investment, infrastructure investment, skills and competition.

5. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING GIGABIT JERSEY:

Question

Given that on 9th December 2014 the Minister stated that he was not aware of "budgetary or financial problems likely to get in the way of the final delivery of Gigabit Jersey" and, following news from Jersey Telecom (JT) 5 weeks later that there may be a delay in the timely delivery of the Gigabit project due, in part, to the withdrawal of the deferment of £6m in the dividend payment, can the Minister assure the Assembly that there was no discussion during the 2-hour meeting with the Chief Executive Officer of JT of the potential for the £6m reduction in funding on JT's ability to deliver Gigabit, and publish the minutes of the meeting (redacted as necessary) to confirm this?

If not, will the Minister inform members why he did not broach the issue himself, given the decision of his predecessor on this measure contained in the 2015 Budget and his assurances that agreement on the issue had been sought and obtained with JT?

Will the Minister further issue a statement clarifying his understanding of, and agree to call a meeting as requested in my proposition (P.181/2014) on, all the issues involved in the delivery of Gigabit?

Answer

The Minister confirms that there were many elements of the Gigabit Jersey Project discussed during the meeting, which including the impact of any reduction in funding. As previously discussed in the States, the Minister does not intend publishing minutes of this meeting.

JT provided a full and detailed update on the Gigabit Project, in a private briefing to States members at the Pomme d'Or hotel on 19th January 2015. The members of the Board and Executive

remained afterwards to answer any additional queries that members had.

In regard to funding, the CEO has confirmed that the repayment of all or part of the £6m deferred dividend would naturally reduce the pool of funding available for capital expenditure (JT's capital expenditure is in excess of £20 million annually). This would therefore result in a re-prioritisation of JT Group investment programmes but not necessarily the Gigabit Jersey project, which is a clear priority.

JT has offered that, if are any States Members for whatever reason were unable to attend the briefing on 19th January, they are willing to set up separate sessions. To arrange this, please contact,

Graeme Millar (CEO of JT) by email at graeme.millar@jtglobal.com.  

6. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE ALLEVIATION OF POVERTY:

Question

Following the Chief Minister's commitment to making poverty a central focus of government, does he accept the international standard for the measurement of relative low income as 60% of median earnings or £323 weekly for a single person in Jersey and, if not, why not?

Does the Chief Minister also accept that a single person working 40 hours per week on the minimum wage falls some £50 per week below this low-income threshold?

Does the Chief Minister accept Reform Jersey principles that suggest that action should be taken on wage levels (living and/or minimum wage, zero-hours contracts) rather than benefits if poverty is be alleviate in a sustainable manner?

Does the Chief Minister consider that, whilst the new Income Distribution Survey (2014/15) to be finalised in the 4th quarter of 2015 may indicate new levels of poverty, these are unlikely to be markedly different to those in the 2010/11 survey which showed 9,000 households, including 4,000 pensioners, 4,000 children and 10,000 working age adults to be below the relative low income threshold and that this should not preclude action early in 2015 to lay down the principles and policies to deal with poverty, and if not why not?

Answer No.

The commonly used measure for relative poverty is household income (i.e. not individuals, and not earnings) against  60% of median household income. This includes pensions, benefits, and investment income for the household as a whole.

This is the measure applied by the Independent Statistics Unit.

• In 2009/10, the relative low income threshold for a standard household (two adults) was £400 before housing costs.
• Applying this value to a single person household, the relative low income threshold values was £267 before housing costs.

This analysis is being updated as part of the latest household income survey due to report later in 2015.

• The minimum wage is currently set at £6.63 per hour, so an individual working 40 hours per week would earn a gross wage of £265.20. For a single person living in a bedsit supported by Income Support this would increase to a gross income £345.20 per week.

To support increased incomes, we must seek earnings growth that is driven by increased productivity, i.e. workers producing more economic value in the same amount of time and being rewarded accordingly. To complement this, benefits should be available to ensure people have sufficient money on which to live when they are unable to work, or when their wages need topping up to meet basic living costs. At the same time, action should be taken on containing prices in key markets to make people's income go further, for example, updating our competition framework, promoting competition, etc.

As to the minimum wage, it is essential as a means of setting a minimum standard of pay to remove the excesses of low pay, while taking into account business realities, supporting a competitive economy and maintaining employment. This is how the minimum wage level is formulated. It would be counter-productive in tackling poverty to raise the minimum wage if that led to unemployment, or reduced hours. The world of work is also changing with increasing use of technology supporting part-time working, self-employment, and small businesses, and changing customer behaviour. We need to combine appropriate protection with flexibility.

This is the approach of this Council of Ministers: Increasing living standards – increasing productivity, increasing employment, containing prices – while also implementing a range of measures to improve education, health and social care, investing in housing provision and standards, all of which helps our community become more inclusive.

The new income distribution survey will provide valuable evidence of the impact of the recession on different household types, and it is not advisable to second-guess the outcome of the survey before the underlying data has been fully gathered, or to make significant policy changes to the income support system in advance of that analysis.

7. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE AWARD OF INCOME SUPPORT IMPAIRMENT COMPONENTS:

Question

Will the Minister inform members on what basis the tests used to assess award of Income Support impairment components are founded and when they were last reviewed by the Department or the relevant U.K. authority?

Is the Minister satisfied that these tests represent an accurate and complete picture of applicants' functional abilities, especially in the case of mental impairment, variable and multiple conditions and those difficult to diagnose such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?

In particular, is the Minister content that these judgements are made by Social Security officers without medical training on the basis of Department for Work and Pensions guidance and internet reading?

Is the Minister satisfied that the Department's appeals process, whether applied to medical (impairment) or other components of Income Support, or to the sanctions regime applied to breaches of Actively Seeking Work or leaving work without sufficient reason, is fit for purpose?

Further, has the Minister obtained legal advice on whether an appeals process which contains a "second determination" tick-box exercise followed by a complex process lasting between 3 and 6 months is human rights compliant given that an applicant's condition could be worsened due to stress following denial of benefit?

Answer

The tests used to assess the award of the Income Support impairment component were designed at the start of Income Support with the assistance of medical experts who had participated in designing the UK system and in training large numbers of staff on the mainland to deliver similar assessments. The Department continues to make use of experienced UK experts to train local assessing staff and to carry out periodic reviews to ensure that the tests are functioning as intended. Changes to the tests are made on expert medical advice, most recently in 2014 when the descriptors relating to epilepsy were updated to reflect changes made to the equivalent tests in the UK.

I am satisfied that the assessment process designed for Income Support is an appropriate way to obtain an accurate and complete picture of the applicant's functional abilities. The process is designed to take into account evidence presented by the applicant and to match this against evidence from a General Practitioner and/or specialist medical reports. Separate areas of the assessment deal with physical, sensory and mental capability and they can be applied to mental impairment, as well as variable and multiple conditions. The assessment process is not centred on a specific diagnosis, but is designed to take into account the effect of any and all medical conditions on a person's functional abilities, whether these are subject to a formal diagnosis or not. Where there is medical evidence that a condition affects everyday function according to the criteria set under law, an award will be made.

The assessment process used by Income Support is designed to be administered by officers who do not have professional medical qualifications. The role of the officer is to assess the evidence that has been provided, rather than to take medical judgements. Where evidence is not clear, a medical board can be used to gather the additional evidence needed. The specialist officers who work in this area of benefit assessment have my full confidence. Officers undertake an intensive period of

training from experts who perform the same function for DWP staff in the UK. Determining officers have access to medical professionals to request advice, but also make use of a range of reference material including the DWP website which is regularly updated.

Furthermore, I am completely satisfied that the Department's appeal process is fit for purpose. Any adult included in an Income Support claim has the right to request a second determination (i.e. a review or reconsideration) of any decision made under the Income Support Law that affects their household. This request will be dealt with by a different officer who will fully review the original decision. The applicant is given full opportunity to understand the first decision and present additional evidence to support their case. If they are still dissatisfied with the outcome of their second decision, they are given the opportunity to appeal to an independent tribunal organised by the Judicial Greffe.

Appeals in respect of medical components are considered by a dedicated Income Support Medical Appeal Tribunal. This body is chaired by a qualified lawyer, who is supported by both a GP and a member of the public with an interest in disability issues. Other appeals are referred to the Social Security Tribunal. In both cases, the tribunal applies the law and its decision is binding on the Department, but appellants may appeal to the Royal Court if they feel that the law has been misapplied.

I strongly reject the use of the term "tick box exercise" to describe the review process and I can reassure Members that the appeals process is fully human rights compliant. The process of internal review and external appeal is extremely thorough and gives the claimant informal and formal opportunities to both understand and challenge the original decision, and to submit additional evidence.

In cases where the claimant chooses to submit additional evidence, the end to end appeal process can last several months, as new evidence is submitted and assessed. For example, reviews and/or appeals are often put on hold to await the outcome of a specialist appointment at the hospital, or the return of test results. It would not be fair nor proper to conclude a review or hold a tribunal hearing where the applicant is unable to present supporting evidence that they know is pending.

8. DEPUTY S.Y. MEZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING THE ANDIUM HOMES STANDARD FOR OPEN AND COMMUNITY SPACE:

Question

Will the Minister, as shareholder representative, state what progress, if any, Andium Homes has made in developing the Andium Homes Standard for open and community space for housing developments in St. Helier and other urban areas? Is the Minister in a position to inform members what these standards are and when Andium will be in a position to set targets for the percentage of housing that meets those standards in the Strategic Business Plan 2014-2019? If not, when will the Minister be able to discuss these standards with

elected representatives? Answer

The Andium Homes (Estate) Standard is an initiative designed by the Company to complement their commitment to achieve 100% Decent Homes Standard compliance within 10 years and to support one of the Company's Key Objectives Great Homes & Places' as set out in its Strategic Business Plan 2014-2019. The Decent Homes Standard will concentrate on the structure and internal services of the home, while the Andium Homes (Estate) Standard will target improvement to external areas.

The Estate Standard is well developed and a client guide is available on the Company website, www.Andiumhomes.je

There have already been two formal visits to each estate and a third visit, designed to encourage greater client participation, is scheduled for February. Considerable information has already been gathered and has assisted in informing the Andium Homes 2015 Planned Maintenance Programme, which is also available on the Company's website.

Many Andium Homes clients have taken the opportunity to accompany their dedicated Andium Homes colleague during scheduled inspections. This has assisted in ensuring that scheduled works are focussed on client expectations.

In rising to the challenge of their ambitious programme of work, detailed in the Company's Strategic Business Plan, maintenance expenditure for 2015 is forecast to approach £12m. This compares with a 2010 annual expenditure of £8.5m.

In addition the Company's Capital Programme for 2015 will see further investment of £30m.

A revised Business Plan will be published in the coming months and this will contain the outset compliance percentage and onwards targets for the sustainable improvement of open and communal areas.

9. DEPUTY S.Y. MEZEC OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE REVIEW OF PROPOSED SITES FOR THE NEW HOSPITAL:

Question

Will the Minister inform members of the terms of reference agreed with the chosen agents into the 100-day review of the one-site/two-site question for the new hospital project, and inform members when he expects to be in a position to report back to the States on its findings?

Answer

I am pleased to be given the opportunity to do so formally.

In September 2014, the then Ministerial Oversight Group gave its commitment that "in view of the scale of the Project, a stand-alone report and proposition on the Future Hospital is in the best interests of transparent and open Government" (SR.10.Res/2014 refers).

The Ministerial Oversight Group for Health Transformation met on 17th December 2014 to discuss this matter. The monthly MOG meeting is chaired by the Chief Minister and is normally attended by the Minister and Assistant Ministers for Health and Social Services, and the Ministers for Treasury and Resources, Social Security, and Transport and Technical Services.

Following consideration of the alternatives, the Ministerial Oversight Group agreed that optimised design configurations of the following four sites should be appraised on a like-for-like basis:

1. A new build single site hospital at the existing General Hospital site (Gloucester Street, St Helier) and adjacent land;
2. A new build single site hospital at the existing Overdale Hospital site (Westmount Road) and adjacent land;
3. A new build single site hospital attheWaterfront site (Zephyrus, Crosslands and Jardins de la Mer); and,
4. A new build and refurbished Dual Site hospital at the existing General Hospital and Overdale Hospital sites.

Gleeds Management Services, appointed by Jersey Property Holdings to undertake the Future Hospital Feasibility Study, has started the options appraisal of the four sites, and this is expected to report within the 100 day target.

Following Ministerial Oversight Group and Council of Ministers reviews, the outcome will be lodged for debate before the summer recess in accordance with the undertaking that the previous Ministerial Oversight Group made to the Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel (within SR.10.Res/2014)

10. DEPUTY M. TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING THE AVAILABILITY OF SATIVEX: Question

During the debate on 9th December 2014 relating to the availability of Sativex, the Minister informed members of an existing mechanism whereby the medicine could be available if an application was supported by a general practitioner (G.P.) and if a recognised consultant in an appropriate specialism had made a request for public funding on behalf of a specific individual, but to date no applications had been received. Will the Minister inform Members:

1. when the existing mechanism was introduced;
2. whether the public and G.P.s were informed, and if so, how and when;
3. whether the fact that no applications had been received could have been due to G.P.s and the public being unaware ofthe existing mechanism, and whether the Minister intends to take steps to inform them?

Answer

Firstly, for clarification, any GP can prescribe Sativex. It is not, however, a medicine that is routinely available and, as such, can ordinarily only be accessed via private prescription.

There has, however, been a long standing mechanism in place, within Health and Social Services, whereby a Hospital Consultant can make an individual patient request for a medicine – where it is not routinely available – to be supplied free of charge through Health and Social Services..

The mechanism for application has been in existence for over 15 years and applies to Hospital Consultants only.

General Practitioners are not able to make individual patient requests directly to Health and Social Services for a medicine that is not routinely available. However, they may refer patients to a relevant Hospital Consultant for review, if they think it appropriate.

Referral to a Hospital Consultant in such cases would be through normal referral channels and a GP may include a request for consideration of the prescribing of Sativex, as part of a referral, where they consider that to be appropriate.

However, the decision on whether to make a request for the non-routine drug to be supplied by Health and Social Services for an individual, rests entirely with the relevant Hospital Consultant, who will give due regard to the patient's particular clinical circumstances; the likely benefit to be gained from the medicine; other treatments previously tried or available; and any exceptional circumstances in the case that may influence the patient's condition.

This can only take place after a patient has been reviewed by the Hospital Consultant following a referral by the patient's GP.

If, after reviewing the patient, the Hospital Consultant's clinical opinion is that a particular treatment would not provide the desired benefit, it follows that they would not submit an individual patient request.

In the 15 years that the process has been in place within Health and Social Services, no such submissions have been received from any Hospital Consultant for the prescribing and supply of Sativex for an individual patient.

GPs are aware of the normal Consultant referral process, but my Department will ensure that they are reminded of the options and process for applications, where they feel this to be an appropriate course of action.

Alternatively GPs can make an application to Social Security to have a particular medicine included in the approved list of medicines. In the event this is agreed by Social Security, the GP would be able to ordinarily prescribe the medication under the Health Insurance Scheme.

11. DEPUTY M.TADIER OF ST. BRELADE OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING THE REGULATION OF PROVIDERS OF SOCIAL RENTED HOUSING:

Question

Does the Minister have a timescale for the introduction of appropriate and more stringent regulation of all providers of social (affordable) rental housing following the incorporation of Andium Homes and the adoption of the Housing Transformation Programme, and, if so, will the Minister inform members when such regulations are expected to be brought to the Assembly?

In the meantime, will the Minister inform members what policies Andium Homes and the Housing Trusts have concerning the tendering for planned and unplanned repairs, internal and structural maintenance, and decoration to ensure that professional standards and safety as well as value for money are met?

Will the Minister further examine what policies exist across housing providers on recharges for cleaning, decoration and repair costs between the provider, incoming new tenants, housing transfers/exchanges and departing tenants and, in particular, state whether there are agreed standards across providers for assessing the degree of "fair wear and tear" involved and, if not, will the Minister agree to achieve such agreed standards?

Answer Regulation

Regulation of social (affordable) housing providers will be brought forward before the end of 2015. This timeframe takes into account the need to develop an appropriate regulatory framework and to consult on proposals with stakeholders, including the social housing providers and tenants. Work is underway with social housing providers to enable this.

Tendering policies for repairs and maintenance

All social housing providers have policies in place for the tendering of repair and maintenance works.

For major items of work above a certain value, providers will conduct a competitive tender that is subject to a full due diligence process by senior officers and/or the provider's board of directors or trustees as is necessary.

For  minor or urgent repair works, providers will obtain services from a number of approved contractors. The standard of their work and rates will be assessed to ensure that the services represent value for money and satisfy professional standards of maintenance and repair.

Recharges for cleaning, decoration and repair at the end of a tenancy

All social housing providers have clear and closely aligned policies in respect of recharging tenants for cleaning, decoration and repair costs when they give notice to vacate their property.

The responsibilities tenants have to return their home in a reasonable state of repair and cleanliness will be set out in their tenancy agreement, and additional guidance is available from providers in respect of tenants' obligations for the condition and maintenance of their property.

Where a property is not in a satisfactory condition at the end of a tenancy, and its condition could not be attributed to fair wear and tear, providers will require tenants to undertake remedial works to improve the condition of their property. If a tenant does not return his/her property in a satisfactory condition, the provider will carry out the work itself and seek payment from the tenant to meet its costs.

In the case of the Housing Trusts, the costs of such works will be deducted from a tenant's deposit if there are outstanding obligations, in addition to a further sum if the amount is not sufficient to meet the costs of remedial works. It should be noted that Andium Homes does not require tenants to pay a deposit, and thus operates a system of recharges where a tenant fails to return a property in an acceptable condition.

There are no precise rules on what constitutes "fair wear and tear" which is the case for all types of rental tenancy, although social housing providers will take a professional approach to determining how such matters are dealt with. It should be noted that all the providers use condition reports on new tenancies as required by law since October 2014, which provides a comparative record of the condition of a property at the beginning and at the end of a tenancy.

4. Oral Questions

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding proposals for the reduction of poverty in the Island:

What measures, if any, will the Chief Minister be proposing this year to reduce poverty in the Island?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

The best way to reduce poverty is to help people into work to deliver earnings growth that is built on productivity increases and to constrain price rises so people have more money in their pockets. Of course we also need an income support system that provides help where needed and a minimum wage that removes excesses of low pay. But poverty is a broad agenda. We also need to better educate our children and secure improvements in our living environment, health and social services, all of which will make our society more inclusive. This is the agenda we will be outlining in our Strategic Plan.

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We heard aims there, we did not hear policies. The Chief Minister will have been as shocked as I was to read in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) earlier this year about a family where 2 people were working but were still having to go to food banks to be able to feed their family. For them they have no time for platitudes. What they need is clear action and a timescale, so could he give us some specifics as to what he will do, not just wishy-washy aims, which is what I think we just heard.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

This Government recognises that the issues of relative poverty that some in our community face is complex and covers a broad agenda. I have asked the Deputy of Trinity to work with voluntary and community organisations specifically in regard to food banks. We know that we have an income support system which does not start providing for members of our community until they have been resident for 5 years. That was a policy aim of this Assembly. But we know from speaking to organisations in the voluntary community sector that they have seen and are reporting increasing numbers using those food banks. We need to understand why. We need to understand who those individuals are before we can bring forward firm policy proposals.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

The Chief Minister in his initial answer mentioned how he was going to ensure the prices were kept down. I would very much like to know how he is going to do that. Secondly, and more importantly, what steps he is going to take to make sure that we do not get user pays charges and other charges, which are going to add to the burden on ordinary individuals and add to inflation.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Jersey, in common with other European countries, is enjoying some of the lowest inflation that it has known for many years. That is good for consumers and it should be good for ordinary individuals and the money in their pocket. One of the reasons that the issue of competition has moved, and is moving from Economic Development to the Chief Minister's Department and Senator Ozouf being responsible for it, is because we have to make sure that competition is working, because we know that competition is important. When we look at what is happening in the fuel market we know that one of the answers there, rather than increasing margins when the global cost of fuel is declining we should see those narrowing.

[9:45]

We are not. We need to make sure that competition is working in a way that perhaps we have not done in the past.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The Chief Minister forgot to mention about the role of Government in keeping prices down and whether we are going to see an increase in user pays charges and other above inflation charges coming to the public. Will he give a commitment that he will not be bringing in over-inflation charges?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

That is the standing instruction which was agreed by this Assembly some years ago. If there is a need to change that then this Assembly will be a party to that decision.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Having heard those words I am tempted to reflect back to his own statement: "A decision has been made that charges will not go up by greater than the rate of inflation by this House" a previous House, and yet we have decided that rents, a fundamental aspect of people's lives, will go up by R.P.I. (Retail Price Index) plus. Plus 0.75 per cent. What sort of example is that and does it not break the resolution of this House not to increase costs by greater than R.P.I.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy knows that was a decision of this Assembly. This Assembly has difficult decisions to make. It made that decision in the knowledge that it wished to improve the standard of accommodation in the provision of Andium, and that was a difficult decision that it had to make. Was it going to invest in social housing and affordable housing into the future or was it going to carry on making the mistakes of the past and allow people to live in accommodation that was not fit for purpose? I believe it chose the right decision.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Supplementary, if I may. Does the Chief Minister not accept nonetheless that this is an inflationary measure and sets the marker for the private sector, also to raise their rents by greater than the R.P.I.?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not think it gives much cause to continue to argue about a decision that this Assembly has made. I believe it was the right decision. We have not seen the inflationary rise that the Deputy now suggests from the figure that was only released this week.

6. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

Does the Chief Minister agree with me that the time has come for this Government to examine their policy of encouraging low paid, unskilled workers into the Island who exist on an inadequate living wage or the incidents of poverty levels will not improve?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy knows from reading the Interim Population Policy that that is not a policy of this Government. In fact, it has spoken about managing population and immigration in a way that allows those people who have skills and have got value, be that social or economic value, to come into our community. That is where we have continually been challenged. I believe that that policy remains the correct one, which is the reverse of the indication of the Deputy 's question.

7. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

I do not believe that the population is being managed at the current time. While the registered licences remain within companies and those people that are employed by those registered licences then become entitled to work after 5 years. We are just drawing more people into the Island, so I do not believe the Chief Minister knows how many people are arriving in this Island at the current time who are unskilled and will be doing low paid work. I am sorry, I just do not believe he knows the true figure

The Bailiff :

So your question, Deputy , is?

Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Will he go away and address that issue? Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy knows that we do know the number of licences. We do not necessarily know the individuals who are occupying those licences but we do know the number of licences. In the last 3 years H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Work Advisory Group) have been doing work which has reduced the number of licences for 9 qualified people in our community. It is hard because there are some sectors of our economy that requires those individuals, but those politicians, those departments, have been working with those sectors of our economy to try and manage that to create schemes to take people who are already here into their sector. It is difficult work but I believe it is being successful.

8. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

What does the Chief Minister understand by the concept of "wage slaves"? Is that a phrase that he is familiar with and, if so, what does he understand by the meaning of the term "wage slaves"?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I am not sure that a 10-minute question is a suitable time to be able to answer what is a very complex question about the inter-relationship between a job, between a payment for that work, the relationship with the tax system, the relationship with the benefit system. These are very complex issues and it does not do us justice to try and trade political points across this Assembly in dealing with them.

9. Deputy M. Tadier :

Let me assist the Chief Minister. Perhaps another phrase for "wage slaves" is "in-work poverty". The Minister opened his answer with the fact that his Government is trying to get more people into work. I would question what is the point in getting people back into work if those basic wages do not even cover the very expensive [Approbation] living costs in Jersey without some kind of subsidy from the taxpayer? The question to the Chief Minister is if he is genuine in wanting to tackle poverty or relative poverty in our Island will he tackle the single biggest issue, which is extortionate rental prices often for squalid or bad properties. If he took the time to look on Jersey Insight or other websites he would realise that in Jersey you cannot rent a one-bedroom property in the Island of any decent quality for less than £1,000 a month and many individuals are having to give up more than half of their net income for property..

The Bailiff :

Sorry, Deputy , questions must be concise. Deputy M. Tadier :

The question is: will the Chief Minister undertake with urgency to look at rental prices to bring in some form of rent control and if that is not the preferred option, what is the policy of his Government to control the outgoings on rentals?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy will know from history that rental control does not work. We have tried it before and it did not work. With regard to income support, the Deputy knows that income support is an in-work benefit. Is he trying to really suggest to this Assembly and to this community that he would rather see people on benefit and not working than see people working and being supported by the Government to deal with everyday living costs, because I know which policy I would rather pursue, and it is the latter one and it is the one that the Minister for Social Security is pursuing. We need to continually keep that under review to make sure it is working. We know that work is good for us. All the academic research tells us that, so it is better for individuals to be in work and be supported than just be supported outside of work.

10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

In this entire question we have not had a single specific commitment to a specific policy. Those are my first 2 questions and unfortunately because the Chief Minister refuses to answer questions properly it has to be my third question as well. What specifics will his Government try to do? What timescales and what outcomes will he be looking for? He must have something surely otherwise it would appear that he just went to the media for a photo opportunity without any substance at all. What is he actually going to do and what would be a good outcome?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I said in my opening response. There are many areas of work and we will be bringing forward some of those areas of work in the Strategic Plan. The first area of work is continuing to get people into work who are not in work. There is the area of competition, there is the area of considering the food banks, there is the latest income distribution survey in gathering further information so that we come forward with policy proposals, which are specific to Jersey rather than just taking other people's policy proposals not knowing whether they are going to be successful or not, which is what some seem to be proposing.

2. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet ofSt.SaviouroftheMinister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding fees charged by Victoria College:

Can the Minister confirm whether a non-refundable £500 deposit must be submitted with applications for a place at Victoria College and whether this fee, previously made payable to the Treasurer of the States and deducted from the first term's fees, is now not deducted from the fees and made payable to the Victoria College Foundation and, if so, can the Minister advise when this decision was taken and by whom?

Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

Thank you to the Deputy for raising this issue because I am sure other Members would have had concerns over the Christmas period. Parents of boys starting Victoria College in September 2015 have been asked to pay a non-refundable deposit to secure their son's place at the school. In previous years this money would have been deducted from the first term's fees however the school changed the system this year and intended to use this £500 for the Victoria College Foundation. I have asked the governors to reverse this decision and the school has confirmed it. It will be writing to parents to advise them that the deposit can either be returned or donated to the Victoria College Foundation this year. I will have further discussions with the school to discuss funding issues for the future.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just thank the Minister for his swift action on this matter? I am sure the group of parents will be very pleased.

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

The Minister did not quite finish off the question, which was asked of him, which was when the decision was taken and by whom.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

The decision was taken by the governing body. Unfortunately because of the election and various other things there was a timing delay in finding out. I was not aware of the actual letter having gone out to parents until some time in mid-December. I asked the finance director of Victoria College to come in and have a discussion. It was at that point in time I found that they had already sent the letter out to the parents. I then asked him at that point in time to rescind that decision, which they have now done. They had a meeting last Friday and informed me through email on Sunday that that is what had happened.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

In the context of the requirement for all departments, all Ministers, to take 2 per cent off their budget what topics will the Minister be addressing when he talks to Victoria College? Will one of those be the possibility of reducing the subsidy from the States and taxpayers?

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, Deputy . Too far off the original topic.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Minister did mention he was going to have further talks with ..

Yes, he did, but it is supplementary to the original question.

3. Deputy M. Tadier :

Given the fact that previously the deposit would have been paid to the Treasurer of the States, was the Treasurer of the States informed of this decision before the letters were sent out?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

No, he was not. The College at the time felt that the Foundation, because of the nature of the request, did not have to inform him. That was one of the problems that occurred and was highlighted at the meeting with the finance director.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Following on from what the Minister told us about he is going to be having meetings with the College regarding funding, can he advise Members whether the reasons for the £500 non- refundable deposit was because they believe they are short of funds and are they making a request for additional funds from the Minister?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

No, that was not the background to this. The governing body felt that they wanted to provide extra activities to enrich its students' educational experience, which I think is a particularly good thing. But the way in which they went about it was not in accordance with the rules.

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding the Planning and Environment Department's policy for the retention and disposal of records:

Will the Minister advise Members what the Planning and Environment Department's policy is for the retention and disposal of records and what safeguards there are to ensure that the policy is followed and that no accidental or deliberate disposal of records can occur?

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin (The Minister for Planning and Environment):

My department has a records management policy and records are retained and disposed of in accordance with this policy. The purpose of the records management policy is to ensure that full and accurate records of all activities and decisions of the Department of the Environment are created, managed, retained or disposed of appropriately in accordance with relevant legislation. This policy provides a framework and outlines responsibilities for the operation of the department's record management programme. This programme has been established by the department in accordance with the Public Records (Jersey) Law 2002, the Data Protection Law 2005, the Freedom of Information (Jersey) Law 2011. The policy has been authorised by the chief executive officer of the department and all staff must comply with this policy and associated records management procedures. The department is developing section-specific retention schedules covering records relating to its core functions and activities.

[10:00]

The schedules include timescales after which records should be transferred to the Jersey Archive or confidentially destroyed. The policy and retention schedules are available from the department and I have arranged for copies of these to be forwarded to Deputy Higgins. With regard to ensuring that the policy is followed the department expects all staff to comply with States and department policies. Any breach of policy by an employee of the States Employment Board following an

investigation would be dealt with by the department's chief officer or his nominee in accordance with the States of Jersey disciplinary procedure. If the Deputy has any questions or concerns regarding the retention or disposal of records by my department I ask that he forward these to me and I can make sure that they are either answered, investigated or both.

1. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I am pleased the Minister has given that statement. I will be providing him with information of where his officers are starting to cull files where there are disputes. People are being told that no emails are contained in the files, which they have requested under subject access request, some of which other copies exist elsewhere, but the department is claiming they do not have it. They do not have file notes. They do not have other things. Will the Minister ensure that his officers, to comply with the Human Rights (Jersey) Law and Article 1 Protocol 1, which requires that all actions of the department are carried out in accordance with the law and are proportionate, that they will retain all the records regarding decisions, including all file notes, all relevant telephone messages, all emails, so the people, if they wish to challenge the law, can do so because the records are there and not culled? I will provide him with the information. Will the Minister please give an assurance that all file notes and all emails relating to cases which could be in dispute will be retained?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

My department recognises that records are a vital asset to facilitating information accessibility and protecting the rights and interests of the States of Jersey, its customers, clients and most importantly the members of the general public. As I said before, all staff, whether permanent, contract, temporary, student or work experience must comply with this policy. But I do have to say to the Deputy that there are a number of items which are destroyed - or not retained is possibly a better way - and these include things like low-level meeting agendas, trivial emails, draft letters, working papers, obsolete publications and superseded addresses and distribution lists. For my department to retain absolutely everything they have is extremely difficult. However, I will say and reiterate to the Deputy that if he has any questions or concerns I will certainly look into them if he can provide me with the detail.

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I will be providing the Minister with relevant information but what does concern me is the fact that individual officers who are dealing with the cases are not making the decisions about what they are going to delete. In terms of emails and so on, I will say that there has been a recent case where a criminal conviction was overturned in the Royal Court on the basis of irregular .. not irregular, I am trying to think of the term. It was to do with procedural and other problems. In fact personally I think it should have gone further, it should have involved perjury. What I would say is that the information that was used by the court to quash the conviction and pay compensation to the person and so on, the information would only have come out had all the emails, et cetera, which were provided to the court and to the Law Officers had they been made available. It should not be for officers to decide which emails are relevant because even a very minor email relating a case or to an architect or to another officer could be relevant in deciding whether a person has been badly treated or not. So I would ask the Minister to have a darn good look at the policy, especially in light of the information I will provide.

The Bailiff :

Have a very good look. Deputy M.R. Higgins: Yes, thank you, Sir.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I would say to the Deputy that my department operates a procedure called S.A.F.E. which stands for Sender Always Files Emails. If the sender decides to retain an email it should be treated like any other document and it is saved in the relevant and appropriate location. This relates to departmental email correspondence only. Unfortunately  we cannot rely on other  agencies or outside departments to follow the same procedure. But if the Deputy has emails which he thinks are relevant, again if he would forward them to me I will look at them and investigate.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the delivery of Gigabit Jersey:

Will the Minister inform Members of the latest developments in J.T.'s (Jersey Telecom) commitment to deliver the Gigabit project on budget and on time?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

The Chief Executive of J.T. gave a presentation to States Members on the Gigabit project last night. The presentation was also attended by the chairman of the J.T. board. I circulated the slides of that presentation to all Members last night. It is clear that a great deal of progress has been made in terms of delivering an extremely challenging and complex programme, one which of course has had its problems. Nevertheless 100 per cent of the core network has been installed, 99 per cent of premises past network has been installed and 35 per cent of broadband premises on the Island had been connected by 31st December 2014. That is 12,035 homes connected versus a target of 13,697. For context, in the terms of global ranking for fibre to the home, Jersey is overall in the top 10 and in Europe in first place. Make no mistake, this is a fantastic achievement and critically important as we develop Jersey's digital economy.

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Wonderful attempt at not answering the question. Could the Minister address the issue of the timing of the completion of the Gigabit project and does he accept that the Chief Executive Officer of J.T. last night said that that may be up to the end of 2019 rather than the initial aim of end of 2016?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

First of all I was delighted that Deputy Southern attended the presentation last night. I am sure he found it very useful. Yes, there are variables in a project of this complexity and size. There have been some difficulties which have been notified in the media among other things. Members who attended last night were made aware of those challenges. The chief executive did point out that in certain scenarios there could be an extended delivery period for this project. But he said he was not in a position to commit to that until the details and issues surrounding CH2M and the workers have been resolved, and he has undertaken that by June this year he will have completed a complete review and will be in a position to give Members a proper update on the budget and indeed the delivery date for this important project.

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Following on from that, there must clearly be a link between the current dispute that is going on, its resolution and the safe delivery of the Gigabit project in everyone's interest. Could I ask what influence does the Minister have with CH2M in order to make sure that the dispute resolution is catalysed as quickly as possible?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

Clearly, as Members will appreciate, the influence is with the executive with CH2M. CH2M was successful in securing the contract for this infrastructure. They are, as Members will be well aware, one of the largest infrastructure companies in the world with turnover of £6 billion and 28,000 staff globally. They do infrastructure. It is their business. So the relationship is between J.T. and that particular company. However, last night following the presentation, I discussed with the board chairman and the chief executive the particular challenges around this, and I have said that as a result of the position that we now find ourselves in that I am going to write personally to CH2M to express concerns around certain aspects of the delivery of the project and in relation to the way in which it appears that some workers may have been challenged. I think that will hopefully help to exert some additional pressure on a company which has shown globally that it takes its reputation very seriously.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I am glad to hear from the Minister that he is finally acting on this particular issue. Is it his intention that those workers who claim to have been not paid for work done or hours done, to the extent of thousands of pounds in some cases, that he will take up the cases of those workers and seek a resolution so that we can look forward to some sort of completion date well in advance of 2019?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

I certainly hope in terms of the latter part of that question that the project is delivered as early as possible. It is in the interests of the Island. It is critically important from an economic point of view that we remain one of the leading jurisdictions with regard to delivery of high speed fibre. It is something that our sister Island I noted recently in the media were bemoaning, suggesting that they are 20 per cent slower and 35 per cent more expensive. But in terms of ensuring that the issues around the employees are properly rectified, yes, I have been holding to account both the executive, and I have spoken to the chairman about this issue, I have to say, and I am sure Members who attended last night would agree, the executive and the board are determined to do everything that they possibly can to ensure that the workers are properly paid for a fair day's work. That is what they should expect and that is indeed what they should get. I can say that although these are not J.T. employees, what J.T. have done, as recently as December, is that they have looked at the payments that were approved by CH2M. They did not agree with all of them and they paid £23,000 in excess of authorised payments from CH2M to the workers to ensure that fairness was achieved. A lot more work clearly needs to be done and I am satisfied that both the board and the executive are undertaking their duties very seriously to resolve this issue.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Final supplementary, if I may, Sir. Does the Minister have a date by which he intends to be in touch with the workers concerned in order to ensure that this issue is satisfactorily resolved?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean:

No, I do not or would not give a date to the Deputy . The Deputy knows that I attended the meeting organised by Deputy Mézec with some workers from G.F.F. (Gigabit Field Force) last week. I found that very constructive to hear first-hand their views and their challenges. Indeed where I was allowed by those workers to pass on the comments they had made, I have done so to J.T. As I have said, the H.R. (Human Resources) Department in J.T., the executive and the board are taking this matter seriously and I will continue to challenge them to ensure that they put the appropriate pressure on CH2M to operate in an appropriate way with their employees, their workers.

5. Deputy J.A.HiltonoftheMinister for Treasury and Resources regarding a grant made to the Sea cadets for the construction of new premises:

Will the Minister confirm the balance of monies available to the Sea Cadets from the £600,000 originally granted for the purpose of providing new premises and state what monies have been spent, by whom and to what purpose, and who retains control of the remaining funds?

Senator A.J.H. Maclean (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I am delighted to ask my Assistant Minister, Deputy Noel, to deal with this matter. He has been dealing with it for some considerable time and he has delegated responsibility.

Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):

Of the £600,000 budget originally allocated in 1996 £192,730 was expended before 31st December 2006 by E.S.C. (Education, Sport and Culture) and its predecessors at the department, mainly on the 1998/2000 aborted scheme. The balance of £407,263 was subsequently transferred to Property Holdings. With regard to the expenditure on the current scheme: project development costs are £225,334 and payments have been made in respect of legal fees, architect fees, marine architect fees, project management fees, quantity surveying fees, heritage adviser fees, public relation fees and valuer fees. Payments made to the private sector company reimbursed pre-agreed costs incurred by them from suppliers with no mark-up, no administration fee, no additional overheads or profit or any other added costs. The agreement between the private sector company and the suppliers is a commercial agreement between those third parties. In addition to the above payments, the project budget has made the following internal direct payments: planning fees paid to the Planning and Environment Department of £32,802, surveyor's fees paid to T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) of £560. A further sum of £41,200 has been paid by to the Jersey Maritime Trust in respect of set-up and operating costs. The balance remaining is £107,367 and it is in the Treasury and Resources Department capital budget.

[10:15]

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

There are a lot of figures spoken about then but my understanding is that the balance left of the original £600,000 is £107,000, which is under the control of the Treasury Department. I think that is correct. I think I have understood that correctly. Will the Minister confirm that the original plans for the Marine Hub did not include apartments and as a result of the amended plans to include apartments the former chairman of the charitable trust resigned his post?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

The chairman of the charitable trust has not resigned his post. It has been the same chairman throughout. One of the members resigned their post because they had a difference of opinion of how the project should be carried out. I believe - I have not heard this directly from the individual concerned - that they resigned because they thought that the Trust themselves should have been the developer. I can confirm that the Deputy is correct in that the balance remaining is £107,367.

2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Another supplementary, Sir? Could the Minister  just explain, with the remaining  balance of £107,000 is this what has been driving the fact that the apartments were included in the original plans because simply all the money has been spent?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

No, the original scheme brought forward was for a hotel-come-hospital development. Members will recall back in 2011 when we debated the Island Plan this was the preferred site for the Sea Cadets and for the other maritime users, and it was to be funded out of a planning gain from that site. The schemes that was brought forward originally as a hotel scheme to provide the funding. Unfortunately that hotel would have been at such of a size that nothing else would have fitted on the site to provide the necessary planning gain to provide the £2.2 million to £2.5 million worth of community asset being built. Members may or may not know that residential property provides the biggest return from a development for the smallest physical footprint, which is why we ended up with a residential scheme to fund the public community space.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Assistant Minister proud of the record of his department and other departments in the Council of Ministers in frittering away this sum which was allocated to a particular cause all those years ago?

Deputy E.J. Noel:

I will take that question in 2 parts. I am extremely proud of the departments that I have worked with, particularly Property Holdings which has worked exceptionally hard in trying to deliver projects that this Assembly wants them to deliver. I am also proud of the Ports of Jersey in their work that they do. I do not believe that we have frittered away. We have done what this Assembly has asked us to do, which is come up with a scheme that self-funds the £2.2 million to £2.5 million worth of community space. It is obvious from the public reaction to that that the public do not want residential development on that site, and we have agreed with stakeholders to go in and see alternative sites to see if it is possible to relocate the Marine Hub there. But it may be the case that the Marine Hub, without any commercial development, the preferred site will still be Les Galots and that we will have to get the planning gain from other sites within the Port's portfolio.