States Meeting Transcript - 29th April 2015

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT WEDNESDAY, 29th APRIL 2015

PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumption................................................................5

1. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2016 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (1) - resumption.............................................................5

1. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:...................................................5

1. Senator L.J. Farnham :....................................................................6
2. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:.......................................................6
3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................7
4. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :............................................................7
5. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:......................................................8

6. Senator I.J. Gorst :........................................................................9
7. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................10

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): twelfth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(12)) - paragraph (2)...............................................................12

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):..................................................................................12
2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................12
3. The Connétable of St. Peter:............................................................13

4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................13

3. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): ninth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(9)) - paragraph (4) ............................................................................14

1. The Connétable of St. Helier (Chairman, Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel):........................................................................14
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................14
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................15

4. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (2)(a)........................................................................15

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................15
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................16
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................16

5. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (2)(b)........................................................................17

1.5.1 The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................17

6. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (2)(b) - amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)Amd.)............................18

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister).................................................18
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................18
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................18
4. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:.......................................................19
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................19
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................20
7. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John : ....................................................20
8. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................21
9. Deputy K.C. Lewis :....................................................................21
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................21
11. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................22
12. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................23
13. The Connétable of St. Peter:.........................................................24
14. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:...................................................25
15. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin : ........................................26
16. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin:.....................................................27
17. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:...............................................28
18. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................29
19. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................30

7. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (2)(b) - as amended........................................................31

1. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................32
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................33
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................33
4. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................35
5. The Deputy of St. Martin:..............................................................35
6. Deputy E.J. Noel of St. Lawrence:......................................................36
7. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................36
8. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................36

8. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): twelfth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(12)) - paragraph (3)...............................................................37

1.8.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré (Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel): .............38

9. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (3) ................................................................38

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................38
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:.....................................................39
3. The Connétable of St. Mary:............................................................39
4. The Connétable of St. Helier:...........................................................40

10. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): ninth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(9)) - paragraph (5) ............................................................................40

1.10.1 The Connétable of St. Helier (Chairman, Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel):...............................................................41

11. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): thirteenth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(13))................................................................................41

1. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement:...................................................41
2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................42

3. Deputy S.M. Brée: ..................................................................43

12. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): tenth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(10))

- paragraph (1)..........................................................................43

1.12.1 Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:......................................................44

13. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraphs (4), (5), (6)(a) and (6)(b)..................................................45

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................46
2. Deputy J.A. Hilton:..................................................................47

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................47 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................47

3. Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement:..............................................47
4. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................48
5. Senator A.J.H. Maclean:.............................................................48
6. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier : ....................................................49
7. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................49

14. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7))

- paragraph (6)(c)........................................................................52

Senator I.J. Gorst :............................................................................53

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................53
2. Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade : ..............................................54
3. Senator L.J. Farnham : ...............................................................54
4. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................54
5. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary : .....................................................55
6. The Connétable of St. Mary : ........................................................55
7. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................55
8. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................56

15. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (7) ................................................................56

1. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................57
2. The Connétable of St. Clement:......................................................58
3. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................58
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................59
5. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................60
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................62
7. The Connétable of St. Brelade:......................................................62
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................62
9. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................63
10. Deputy P.D.McLinton:...........................................................64
11. Senator P.F. Routier:..............................................................64
12. The Connétable of St. Helier:.....................................................65

16. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.) - as amended..................................................................................66

1. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................67
2. Senator P.M. Bailhache :.............................................................70
3. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................70

4. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................72
5. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................73
6. The Deputy of St. Mary:.............................................................74
7. Deputy S.M. Brée: ..................................................................74
8. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................74
9. The Connétable of St. Peter:.........................................................75
10. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :..............................................................75

17. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 – 2018 (P.27/2015): tenth amendment (P.27/2105 Amd.(10))

- paragraphs (2) and (3).................................................................77

1. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................79
2. The Deputy of St. Martin : ...........................................................85
3. Deputy M.R. Higgins:...............................................................86
4. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................86
5. Deputy E.J. Noel:....................................................................86
6. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................87
7. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................89
8. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................90

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................92

The Roll was called and the Vice-Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. PUBLIC BUSINESS - resumption

The Deputy Bailiff :

I should tell Members that whereas the microphones are working fine, the electronic voting systems is at the moment not working, which means that in the event that the appel is called for there will have to be the traditional appel nominal, in other words Members names will have to be read out in sequence and their vote taken and then added up by the Greffier and announced. So there will be a delay when we come to voting under the appel system. Hopefully that will be cured by this afternoon but I will obviously keep Members informed as we go.

1. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2016 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (1) - resumption

The Deputy Bailiff :

[Aside] We now resume the debate on the Connétable of St. Helier's amendment, amendment 7(1). When we adjourned I had noted 3 Members still wishing to speak on the amendment, on the assumption that they remain the same I call firstly on Deputy Wickenden.

1. Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier :

So to follow on from yesterday when we were talking about the proposition, unfortunately I cannot support my Constable in this. I agree with what Deputy Tadier had to say yesterday that I feel that the 5-year rule is not the right system and it is not doing the beneficial work that we want to control immigration and support our economy. Maybe it is time to look at maybe a points system model that will .. as long as it can fit within protocol 3, that can help us really build our economy and help the industries that support our Island. I also agree with Deputy Martin when she said yesterday that it is crazy we have over 1,000 in unemployment and still there are employers that are unable to fill their vacancies. I think that really needs to be looked at. What is making people choose unemployment as the better option? I know when I was younger I sometimes did 2 jobs just to pay my rent and have a quality of life, and unemployment was never an option. Is it a lack of skills and training that we .. or have we made it too lucrative to be unemployed? [Interruption] [Laughter]

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think, Connétable , it is very kind of you to make such a substantial donation in such a joyful manner.

Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter :

If I may say so, that is the tune to the pamphlets on everybody's desk. [Laughter] It is a copy of the original programme for Liberation in 1946. But I am sure they are pleased to hear the new tune anyway and I shall make a donation.

The Deputy Bailiff : Thank you very much. Deputy S.M. Wickenden:

I did ask for the music at the beginning of my speech but maybe there was a technical issue. So whether it is skills or whether it is too lucrative to be unemployed, I think we need to support the Social Security Department and Deputy Pinel in the Back to Work schemes and any other way we

can to make sure that we can help people get into work, make sure they have the right skills. I just do not think that this proposition is the way to do it so I will not be supporting it. Thank you.

1. Senator L.J. Farnham :

No reflection on the previous speaker but I cannot help thinking that if it was the microphones not working and the appel working we might get through today much more quickly. But I would like to support the Constable of St. Helier but alas I cannot. I think it is really down to the wording. I know what the Connétable is trying to achieve, I just think unfortunately the wording as explained in the comments by the Council of Ministers, inadvertently mean that if we were to put all sectors on an even playing field it could lead to a bigger disadvantage for the hospitality sector in the other traditional areas of commerce. Now, I am very mindful of the work that the Housing and Work Advisory Group do. I did sit on it; the Assistant Minister, Deputy Norton now sits on it and works hard with the Minister. It is a very difficult job. When you have to sit there in front of people who, in some cases, are pleading for their livelihoods, it is a very difficult position to be in. Rather than wait for the traditional sectors to be put on a more even footing with finance or to be treated with the same irreverence that I think the Connétable was suggesting, I would like to see more equality among the traditional industries. It is difficult to square the circle when some, for example, garages have licences to employ 2 or 3 registered to work and some do not; the same with restaurants; the same with shops, - there is no equality in those different sectors. When it comes to the hospitality sector - and Members will know I have an interest, I am a director of a hotel - there is a real shortage of skills. Skills that do not just apply to the financial services sector, skills apply across the board. Skills are required to work in retail. Skills are required to work in the motor industry or construction or the hospitality sector. For example, there is an acute shortage of chefs, not just in the Island but in the whole of the E.U. (European Union) and what do we do, we have put a large barrier to importing chefs by stating a minimum salary that is required, which is about £10,000 a year higher than the industry level for such chefs. I know the hospitality sector, as we speak, are penning a letter to the Minister for Home Affairs to ask her to look at this. But we do not like using high and low value in the Economic Development Department. We have said it before, all jobs are valuable, all economic activity is valuable. At E.D.D. (Economic Development Department) we are working now with .. we are going to be working to present some ideas to the Housing and Work Advisory Group and the Population Office. Following a meeting that Senator Maclean and I had with a group that have named themselves Small Businesses in Crisis, the Senator and I went down a couple of weeks ago and we listened to these people. Now, these real people with real businesses, with real views, some of them do not really understand the process that we have for the licences and the communication between the Population Office and small businesses needs to be far better. It needs to be improved significantly, but we need to come up with a better way of doing this in the near future. So I regrettably cannot support this amendment, although I do support what the Connétable is trying to achieve. As Minister for Economic Development, I promise to work

with him to try and make it more equitable. [9:45]

It is challenging for E.D.D. One of our economic objectives is to encourage small business and it is very difficult to encourage small business when you cannot always find the right staff for them to employ. Thank you.

2. Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour :

I cannot support this amendment. I believe it is very well intentioned but obviously we cannot have an open door policy. We must look after the people we have and I, too, as a very young man had 2 jobs and I take my hat off to everyone that is doing that now to make ends meet, but we must look after the residents that we have. I recall not so many years ago being invited on to the Radio Jersey

Sunday morning politics programme with a then Senator, and I made the point at the time as we were talking about immigration that I could foresee a day in the future when we would be pushing 85,000, 90,000 residents in Jersey, and here we are now nearly pushing 100,000. So I am sure this is very well-intentioned but I cannot support this amendment.

3. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Some people are getting the wrong end of the stick on this amendment. If one reads the words: "Create a level playing field to ensure that businesses wishing to employ staff with less than 5 years residency are treated in the same way regardless of sector." That does not lay down a population policy or migration policy. It does not say we should have tough laws, it does not say we should have lax laws. It is neutral. So this thing about we must employ our own local unemployed first is not affected by this at all. That is the first thing to say. So there could be lax laws, there could be tough laws but what it says is there should be fair laws. We should treat one person equally with another. Good grief, is that the Jersey way, I wonder? We certainly should be. So I have got on my little notes here: "Fair." It is a move for fairness and, oh, yes, what does it do then? What does it do? It makes it .. if we are fair, which everybody is saying, whatever sector they are, it makes it more difficult to grow the economy by productivity because what is the easiest way to improve the productivity of your economy? Let us get rid of 4 farmers, 3 plumbers and turn them into bankers or FinTech people because they make lots of money and big salaries. Your productivity or your economy goes up just by switching which sector you are working in. Of course, the Council of Ministers has said: "We are going to produce productivity growth. Productivity-led economic growth." That is what they want to do and the easiest way we can do that is open the gates in financial, in the eBusiness, et cetera, FinTech, let us do that because that is good earners. That means productivity will go up. We will be seen to succeed. That is what it says. No, what we should have is not a high powered economy but a balanced economy. As my hairdresser says to me every time I go in, which is not very often but often enough: "What use is that banker if I cannot get a trained-up hairdresser to give him a haircut? He is not going to get any sales next week because they will go: Look at that scruff Nicky'." If we want to encourage our own unemployed into work, what must we do? Well, Deputy Higgins will know all about this, but is it not the law of supply and demand? If we open the doors to labour its cost goes down, it becomes cheaper to employ. If we close the doors somewhat and make it tougher to import this free market of labour, then what happens? In order to attract the right people you have to pay the right wages. As somebody said yesterday, if we want to see people in our agriculture industry, our own young people in agriculture, in hotel and catering, well pay them the proper wage. Make the job attractive then they will do it. Yes, there is hard hours, awkward hours but paid properly and not at the Minimum Wage or next but one to it, then you might well have our young unemployed back in the economy and working and being productive. That is the thing to do. So, you are safe to vote for

this amendment because it does not say: "Tough, we will not be closed." It does not say tender. We will not be open to all comers. What it does say is what we must be is fair. Members may have noticed that was a theme that I was pursuing yesterday. So I will be voting for this amendment.

4. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity :

Population, immigration will always be a difficult issue for everyone. Do we limit immigration, put a cap on it or have an open door policy? Either way is not right but what we need here is a balance allowing some immigration but the right ones to grow our economy but not an open door policy. It is a difficult balance, that is why the Housing and Work Advisory Group was set up in line with the States approved interim population policy. All applicants must benefit Jersey to ensure a diverse economy. A great deal of work has been done to look at every business and the number of registered permissions, as you will see, have decreased over the last 2 years; 3,000 registered permissions have been removed. Emphasis must be put on getting over local

employment back to work by giving training and Social Security and the Back to Work team do an excellent job. At the H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Work Advisory Group) meetings an officer of Back to Work is present and to advise if applicants have engaged with the team or not. But we still do need immigration and will always need to do so. There are sections of our economy that those staff, one size does not fit all. Indeed, if it did, it could be detrimental to our economy. Our population is growing with or without immigration as our birth rate is higher than our death rate and has been for many years. It is evidence that we are an ageing society. While this is, on the face of it, a good proposition it will just not work. Thank you.

5. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Yes, thank you. Unfortunately, unless we break this amendment down to its elements I cannot support it. Obviously as a St. Helier Deputy I want to see St. Helier as a safe, clean, peaceful part of the Island, with the quality of life comparable to the Parishes. I want to see St. Helier voters having equity with the other Parishes, so those things I fully support. However, I cannot support the proposals that the Constable has put forward on immigration mainly because we have major problems on this Island in the sense that the low pay element .. we have such a difference, an inequality, those in finance obviously are doing quite nicely, most of them. That is not even true, I would say a minority of those in finance. There are some people doing exceptionally well in finance. There are many people who are ordinary workers who are about surviving like everybody else. But the rest of population are doing very poorly. We have a situation here where it is a low pay economy. If we have to look at the number of people, for example, who are on .. getting support from Social Security to top up their wages, which is a drag on our economy. If we talk about a deficit, I believe it should be down to the employers to pay a reasonable wage, and by that I mean a Living Wage. I think it is intolerable these days that we should be subsidising in many cases bad employers. I know there are some employers who are struggling. I have got sympathy with them but I know there are an awful lot who are exploiting their employees. If we look at it another way, retail, I  have absolutely  no sympathy with the retail  industry  in Jersey.  Why? Because they have ripped-off the consumers of this Island for years. The rip-off I am talking about is the fact that many of them are charging an extra 20 per cent. Remember before we brought in G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) there used to be: "Oh, it is a 10 per cent surcharge or a 5 per cent surcharge because of the fact we are an Island." What happened? We brought in G.S.T. and many of them are charging the same price as customers in the U.K. (United Kingdom) are paying with their 20 per cent V.A.T. (Value Added Tax). So in other words their profit margins .. I can remember .. in fact I will name him. [Name omitted from the transcript in accordance with Standing Order 109(7)] from the Chamber of Commerce, I had a debate on this on the whole question of V.A.T. He said: "But we take it as extra profit." Well, I am sorry, when times are hard and the public are struggling, it is wrong to take an extra 20 per cent over and above their normal profit margin. So I believe that the low paid culture that we have for a large number of people in this Island is detrimental to the economy and because of that, if we allow everyone to come in and treat them identically, it just means there is a greater pool of labour and the price of that labour will go down. So that part of it I cannot support. So I will support everything to do with St. Helier, as you would expect as a St. Helier Deputy , but I cannot vote for this proposition unless it is broken

down to elements. Thank you. The Deputy Bailiff :

Deputy , you named an individual during the course of your speech. I direct that that gets removed from Hansard, the reference to the individual.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

That is fine, Sir, I was just quoting someone directly who had made a statement publicly.

6. Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not wish to say very much, but this is a continually difficult issue. I just want to pick up on the theme of fairness. It was suggested by one speaker, who if I understood his speech correctly, is going to support the amendment because they believe that it delivers fairness. I am not quite sure how that speaker or .. the Connétable perhaps in his summing up could explain to us where they think that fairness is going to be because if we look at page 3 of the comments then we can see that there is quite a different percentage of those who have got non-local employees and those who have not. If we were, for example, as has been suggested, to level out and deliver fairness based on the percentage of non-locals in the finance industry then we would have an issue with hotels, bars and restaurants. We would have an issue with the agricultural and fishing sector because they have a far greater percentage of non-local licences. So I am not sure and I do not believe it is the intention of the Connétable to remove non-local licences from those sectors. I believe rather it is to allow those sectors who already have the highest proportion of non-locals to increase their proportion of non-locals. That, of course, creates all sorts of issues as, I think, the speaker did suggest around productivity. We also heard a speaker who suggested that the problem in those sectors, which I think the Constable is referring to who might struggle to get non-local licences, is simply one of a low-wage culture and that if those businesses paid greater wages there would not be an issue. It is nice to live in that sort of world but when I go out and speak to farmers, when I go out and speak to those in hospitality and when I go out and speak to those in retail, hard as it might be for you to believe this, some of them believe that I am on the left-wing political persuasion and I am a soft woolly socialist because I believe that they should play their part, they should pay appropriate .. I will not be signing up for membership of the party of the Members opposite. I feared they were rumbling through for a membership form there in their papers. [Laughter] They should play their part but they are quite clear to me in those conversations that their margins are already narrow, they already see an arbitrage of the Minimum Wage that we have from other parts of Europe and workers coming to participate in their sectors that the Minimum Wage, as it currently stands, means that they struggle with viability. Of course, some in the retail sector are more profitable than others, as one would expect, but we have to be very careful in what we do and in how we suggest that simply if they paid a greater wage those issues would go away because I fear information from the front line that if we did force them to pay a greater wage those jobs would cease to exist in

some sectors and those industries would cease to be viable. [10:00]

So it is a balance and the Ministers involved in the Housing and Work Advisory Group each week have to carefully consider that balance and that is what they do. I believe the policy that we have got in place is working. It is trying to deliver on that balance but we have got to be very careful that we do not upset that balance, meaning that businesses go out of business and therefore there are fewer jobs available in our economy. Therefore, while I understand that there might be specific cases that the Connétable would like to make to that group of politicians, and sometimes they might take a little time to get round to what he and other Members might consider to be the right decision because they expect employers to do their part in employing locally qualified individuals and working with the Back to Work Group, and they are doing a fantastic job as they continue to do under the leadership of the new Minister. That balance is difficult sometimes to achieve and it is not lost on me that Members in this Assembly sometimes stand up and say that we are allowing too many people to come to our community. There are too many non-local licences in our economy and yet quietly behind closed doors they are going and speaking to those politicians who have to make the decisions, asking for extra licences in individual cases. We have to be open. We have to be clear about the implications of the decisions we make. I accept the Connétable 's point in his opening comments about being perhaps clearer about the process that we go through, and I know that Ministers are working on that and I hope that they will be able to do that in the near future, being clear about how the policy is applied. I think that would go a long way to helping some of those businesses. So I am afraid, having been in a position of being able to support a lot of amendments during the Strategic Plan, and I will continue to do that, this is one that I do not feel that we can. Yes, we want to improve productivity. Yes, we want to encourage people to come to our community who are going to make a valuable contribution and that is not just financial, that is also social and cultural but at the same time we have to manage it fairly and with balance.

The Deputy Bailiff :

[Aside] Does any other Member wish to speak on this amendment? If no other Member wishes to speak I call on the Connétable to respond.

7. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

I am grateful to everyone who has spoken. I do not propose to comment on all the contributions individually. Senator Routier, I think, gave a helpful overview of the current procedure in dealing with applications for licences and it was encouraging to hear of progress in moving this panel called, I believe, H.A.W.A.G., to Social Security where it can work closer with the Back to Work team. So that is clearly very useful. Also I am grateful to the Ministers who have agreed that there is, perhaps, a need for more transparency and a greater understanding out there in the business community, particularly among small businesses of what the procedure is and how they can appeal and so on. So that is a job that I look forward to on the understanding that this may not be successful today. I look forward to taking up that challenge with the Council of Ministers and trying to, together with the Parish Deputies and others, explain to local businesses exactly how they can service their customers' needs. It certainly was not my intention to suggest by the word "fairness" that it is about numbers because clearly it is not about numbers, as I think Deputy Southern alluded to, a farmer, a hairdresser, someone working in a restaurant. We are not talking about just balancing up the numbers of people working in the different sectors. Perhaps the problem with the table we have been given by the Council of Ministers is it does rather suggest that it is about numbers in each sector. There are just a couple of points I want to make. Deputy Martin cannot support this particular amendment and she was surprised to hear that there are clothing retailers who cannot find staff in the Back to Work scheme. I will, this week or next week, take Deputy Martin personally to a well-respected clothing retailer. I am not suggesting she needs a new outfit. [Laughter] This is a well-respected retailer of women's clothes so I am sure she will enjoy the visit. This person has had to close shops in the last couple of weeks because of a lack of staff. She simply cannot open one of her shops and that is a fact. I can introduce Members, if they wish, to a local restauranteur who runs one of the finest restaurants in Jersey who has told me quite candidly that it will be easier for her to move to a European city where not only will she get all the licences she needs to employ, she will get grants, she will get every possible assistance from the local community, the local town, the local government in running a successful business. The fact is out there, certainly among hospitality, there is an impression that all we are doing here is generating

a regulation to make it more difficult to run a hotel, to make it more difficult to run a restaurant. Whereas in other European cities they are bending over backwards to invite these people to do business there. So we really do have a problem to deal with because, as I say, there are restaurants out there who could run a better business, they feel, in other places. No one has mentioned one of the .. I suppose it is a bit of a cliché, but the elephant in the room is the construction industry. We all know, particularly at a time when construction is booming, that when the ferries are running the white vans are pouring off with U.K. construction firms coming over here to do their work and that is another area .. they presumably do not get licences. A lot of them probably come off the ferry, do the work and return to the U.K. but some of them, presumably, stay here. There are a number of issues. Members have talked about low wages. They have talked about other aspects of the economics here and really what I was trying to do in this amendment was to help Members understand that out there, certainly in the Parish I represent, there is a feeling that if you are running a financial services business or a digital business, it is much easier to get someone, straight off the plane, straight off the ferry, a licence than it is if you are running a restaurant or are a hairdresser. Deputy Southern , I think, mentioned his rare visits to the hairdresser and he made a very good point. A person working in the financial services industry needs a skilled hairdresser. They need to be able to take their clients to restaurants where the food is top notch and I know we have given licences to some of our Michelin-starred chefs but it is not just them that need the skilled chefs. The other restaurants and hotels also need licences if our financial services industry and our tourism industry are going to really succeed. So if diversifying the economy is really important to the Island then I think most of us agree that the current system -, and we are not knocking the people who administer it, they do a great job in difficult circumstances - but the current system needs to be improved because while I do not support an open door policy for Jersey of letting anybody in I do support an open door for business policy. At the moment there is a suggestion out there that we are not open for business because it is simply too difficult for small businesses and entrepreneurs to start up. So I do maintain the amendments. This is possibly not the best way to achieve what I want to achieve but at least it has put the matter on the agenda and I look forward to working with the Council of Ministers to see if we can at least make the process easier to understand in the coming months.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Could I ask those Members who are in favour of the amendment to kindly show? The appel is called for. The Greffier will read the appel nominal.

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): twelfth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(12)) - paragraph (2)

The Deputy Bailiff :

The next amendment has been lodged by the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel, namely the twelfth amendment, paragraph (2) and I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Deputy Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words – (2) "except that on page 12, in row 3.3 for the words "starting and growing a business" substitute the words "starting, growing and maintaining a business".

The Deputy Bailiff :

Chief Minister, I understand that this is accepted by the Council of Ministers? Senator I.J. Gorst :

That is correct.

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence(Chairman, Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel):

Hopefully a short amendment essentially on looking at the Strategic Plan. It presently says: "Identify and address barriers to starting and growing a business in Jersey." We rather felt there should be a focus on existing businesses as well so we have just inserted or changed it to: "Starting, growing and maintaining a business." In other words, if there are impediments to people running a business over here it will be caught up by the review that they are going to do on this piece of work. At that point it has been accepted by the Council of Ministers. I welcome their support and I make the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is  the  amendment  seconded?   [Seconded] Does  any  other  Member  wish  to  speak on  the amendment? No Member wishes ..

2. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

It is just really to relate some of the issues that I have picked up in the last few years from the Les Quennevais  business  community  although  I  think  the  issues  could  be  shared  from  the  wider community and it is really to support this amendment. The maintaining part is critical. If one is to take a look around Les Quennevais Precinct, for example, one will notice that there is an increasing number of shops which are vacant up there and the ones that are not vacant are increasingly looking more generic, like any High Street you might find in the U.K. There is no shortage of bookies in the Les Quennevais and Red Houses district incidentally so if one does want to go up there and waste some money very quickly either on the slot machines or on the horses one can do that very conveniently either in Les Quennevais or at the back in the other precincts. There is also a Gregg's, which I think is being welcomed, ironically replacing a health food shop which used to be there before which could not make ends meet.

[10:15]

Talking about the maintaining part of it, I think it is all fine for incentives to be there, innovation, et cetera, for starting and growing but when businesses hit a little bump, which was the case with one particular shop up there, and I was contacted. He said he could not get any help whatsoever because he owned his own business. That was considered as an asset. He owned his own home as well but of course he was employing a number of staff; let us say it might have only been 10 staff but for that business to fold it was very costly, ultimately, to the taxpayer and the Social Security Department because that money was not coming in to the States coffers and also those people would have found themselves on the dole ultimately in need of some support. It seems that the system is quite intransigent. Where somebody who could have been given a loan or even a grant for a certain amount of time to help get him over the bump and help with the liquidity issues, ultimately found himself in the position where he had to lay off staff and was unable to maintain that business. I simply flag that up because it is probably not something that I am able to do in this kind of forum on a regular basis and this is probably an apposite time to do that. So, in agreeing this extra word it may seem like it is simply a logical word to insert into the Strategic Plan but I would be very keen to see what workable and practical application can be found to help businesses in that situation because I think those kind of community shops, which are quirky, which employ locals, which are locally run, are not simply manufactured global brands that we are seeing increasingly in the Island which I accept do employ people but do not necessarily have the other cultural benefits. I think the addition of this extra word is far more than we might think. It is not going to be easy to do, of course, because how do you make those judgment calls but it is just something I think worth flagging-up at this point and putting on record.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on this amendment? In which case I call upon the Chairman to .. I beg your pardon, sorry.

3. The Connétable of St. Peter :

Just very briefly in regards to what Deputy Tadier just said. I could not agree with him more.  I think the ability to keep community shops open is very important but there is a mechanism, I think, that is available for all businesses to go to if they have any problems or need assistance and that is Jersey Business. It is there to support not only the larger businesses but the smaller businesses and I think it is only right that the Assembly and those listening are aware that there are mechanisms to help businesses of that size and in fact irrespective of what their problems are.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on this amendment? I call upon the Chairman to reply.

4. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think I will just thank Members for their contribution and I maintain the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I ask those Members who are in favour of the amendment to kindly show? Those against. The amendment is adopted.

3. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): ninth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(9)) - paragraph (4)

The Deputy Bailiff :

We next come on to the amendment lodged by the Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel, namely the ninth amendment, paragraph (4) and I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Deputy Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words – (4) ", except that on page 13 of the draft Plan,  in the section headed The Ambition' after the word vibrant' insert the words ", environmentally aware"; and in the chart on page 14 before row 4.1 insert an additional row as follows with the remaining rows renumbered accordingly. Desired Outcome. 4.1 St. Helier is an environmentally friendly and environmentally aware place in which to live and work. Key areas of focus, 2015 to 2018. Consider explicitly best environmental practice in policy development and decision-making to improve the attractiveness of St. Helier as a place in which to visit, invest and live".

The Deputy Bailiff :

Chief Minister, I think this is accepted, is that correct? Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes. My microphone is not working, sorry.

1. The Connétable of St. Helier (Chairman, Environment, Housing and Technical Services Scrutiny Panel):

I am grateful to the Council of Ministers for accepting this amendment. I clearly did not have my Environmental Scrutiny Panel hat on when I was doing amendments to the plan as Constable because I missed this completely and I am grateful to my panel and to myself, with my other hat on, for spotting that the Strategic Plan needed to be strengthened with regard to the fourth key priority of St. Helier, to make sure that St. Helier is indeed a place of environmental best practice and awareness. So I am happy to propose the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is  the  amendment  seconded?   [Seconded] Does  any  other  Member  wish  to  speak on  the amendment?

2. Deputy M. Tadier :

Very briefly. Obviously I support this amendment as a panel member and perhaps with another hat on, as an ordinary Back-Bencher, I would like to issue a challenge to both the Constable of St. Helier and the Minister for Transport and Technical Services. If I direct their attention to written question 20 this week which talks about glass which goes into the main refuse collection stream and then finds its way into the incinerator. It is very damaging to our incinerator and as such I would like to ask both of those individuals whether they will be providing facilities, whether it is a Parish facility or a T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) facility Island-wide so that general waste in the street can have at least 2 bins where glass can be put in one compartment and ordinary refuse in another compartment. That is before we start talking about general receptacles for recycling because it seems a very costly false economy that we are having. It has been acknowledged that glass is very damaging and very expensive to the incinerator. It seems to be very cheap to provide a second bin in St. Helier and if we are to make St. Helier an environmentally aware place to live it seems that that needs to be followed up by action which is quite easy to do for both of those parties.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on the amendment? In that case I call on the Chairman.

3. The Connétable of St. Helier :

I can only answer the Deputy 's questions with my Scrutiny Panel hat on unfortunately but I will undertake to speak to the Constable of St. Helier about the problem that he has raised. It is an interesting one and what can the Parish do to help separate glass more than they already do by providing communal glass bins, a commercial glass collection service and a new glass collection kerbside trial which going to be rolled out across the Parish from what I know of the Parish. So I will certainly take that forward and otherwise thank him for his comments and maintain the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Those Members who are in favour of the amendment kindly show. Those against. The amendment is adopted.

4. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (2)(a)

The Deputy Bailiff :

The next amendment has been lodged by the Connétable of St. Helier. It is the seventh amendment paragraph (2)(a) and I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Deputy Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words – (2) ", except that in the chart on page 14 of the draft Plan in row 4.1 in the column "Key Areas of Focus 2015–18" (a) after the words "facilitates investment" insert the words ", and provides, in particular, for the use of funds generated by the development of the Jersey International Finance Centre to pay for urban regeneration projects."

The Deputy Bailiff :

Minister, I think that this is accepted by the Council of Ministers? Senator I.J. Gorst :

It is. Thank you.

1. The Connétable of St. Helier :

Once again I am grateful to the Council of Ministers for accepting the amendment, honouring commitments made in the Assembly in the several last years by previous Ministers that the receipts from the development of the International Finance Centre would be used to fund urban regeneration, not just in St. Helier but in other urban parts of the Island. I do urge Members not to treat this as an opportunity to have a debate about the merits of the International Finance Centre because if we do that we will be here until Friday. I simply thank the Council for agreeing that this commitment is going to be put into the Strategic Plan. It is going to be put in writing, in other words, rather than simply being an assurance that we have had in the past from Ministers.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is  the  amendment  seconded?   [Seconded] Does  any  other  Member  wish  to  speak  on  the amendment?

2. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Notwithstanding what the Constable has just said about the International Finance Centre, I shall vote for this particular amendment as a belt-and-braces thing, (1) I personally do not see the economic argument for the International Finance Centre and I certainly will not be supporting it unless that evidence is forthcoming. However, should it go forward then it is right that the money is put into urban regeneration. So I shall vote for it on that proviso.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on this amendment? Then I call upon the Connétable to reply.

3. The Connétable of St. Helier :

I thank Members for their restraint in not taking that opportunity that was offered to them. I am grateful to Deputy Higgins for making the point that Members who support this amendment, and I hope they will, are not necessarily saying they support the proposal itself but they are waiting for more Scrutiny work to be done. So I maintain the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Those Members who are in favour of the amendment would they kindly show? Deputy M. Tadier :

Could we have the roll call please?

The Deputy Bailiff :

Greffier, could you read the appel nominal?

5. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (2)(b)

The Deputy Bailiff :

The next amendment is lodged by the Connétable of St. Helier. It is the seventh amendment, paragraph (2)(b), and I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Deputy Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words – (2) ", except that in the chart on page 14 of the draft Plan in row 4.1 in the column "Key Areas of Focus 2015–18" – (b) after the words "improving Fort Regent" insert the words ", seeking to acquire the land currently in the ownership of the Jersey Gas Company in order to extend the Millennium Town Park to provide additional open space and public parking as appropriate".

The Deputy Bailiff :

Chief Minister, I understand that this is accepted subject to the amendment put forward by the Council of Ministers. Would that be correct?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

That is correct.

1.5.1 The Connétable of St. Helier :

It is ironic the time we saved in not having a debate in the last one, on the International Finance Centre, we wasted on the appel nominal because it seems to take so long and are we not grateful for electronic voting? Not that we should not, of course, exercise our rights to have the appel. Another opportunity for a long debate now on the Town Park and again I would urge Members .. we have recently had a debate about this. I am going to accept the amendment by the Council of Ministers for reasons which I will state very briefly and would urge Members that we do not need now to have another debate about the Town Park in the light of what, hopefully, will be agreed. I must say that the report of the Council of Ministers did not fill me with much hope and left me wanting to have a debate, a battle if you like, on the floor of the Assembly but the words themselves in the amendment seemed to me to give enough comfort that the opportunity, which was presented, of extending the Town Park across the Jersey Gas Company land will be seriously evaluated before the nightmare scenario of town planning that has been approved goes ahead. That is really what I was trying to do with this proposition, this amendment, to the Strategic Plan to ensure that open space in the heart of town around the Millennium Town Park is as important as the development of Fort Regent up on the town hill. So think with those words I am not going to say anything further. I would simply ask Members to support the amendment because it will mean that we will give significant attention to the opportunities presented to extend the Town Park.

[10:30]

The only place it can really go is across the Jersey Gas site; perhaps not across all of it but at least perhaps across some of it to increase that marriage value that we have in the Town Park. It is already a very well used facility. It is quite crowded in the summer and the idea of maybe 2,000 new homes going into that part of St. Helier and no increase in the size of the Town Park really, I do not think, is acceptable but let us not have the debate now. Let us allow that work to be done to see whether it is feasible to extend the town park over the Jersey Gas site.

6. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): seventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)) - paragraph (2)(b) - amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(7)Amd.)

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded?  [Seconded] There is an amendment to the amendment by the Council of Ministers. I ask the Greffier to read that proposition.

The Deputy Greffier of the States:

For the words "seeking to acquire the land currently in the ownership of the Jersey Gas Company in order to extend the Millennium Town Park to provide additional open space and public parking as appropriate"  substitute the words  "providing additional open space and public car parking as appropriate; examining the benefits and costs of extending the Millennium Town Park".

1. Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister)

I am grateful to the Connétable for accepting the amendment in light of their own. I am simply going to say that the Council of Ministers understands the Connétable 's concern about having sufficient, appropriate open space particularly if there are new developments to be taking place in that area, and I am equally grateful for the comments that he has just made that even during this review work he accepts that we may not be able to have a site in its totality but it is the principle of understanding where we can deliver extra space in that area and the cost and benefits that will be delivered accordingly arising from that.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the amendment to the amendment seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak on the Council of Ministers' amendment to the amendment?

2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

I stood for election and at the .. I think it was towards the end of my manifesto I had a paragraph in which I said that I unequivocally supported the extension of the Millennium Town Park over the Gas Works site. I have got a choice now of voting for an amendment to it that I think provides an excuse to eventually not do it. I have a choice between an unamended amendment which says we do it or an amended amendment which still leaves the excuse for not doing it later. So it is absolute common sense and in line with my election manifesto I will be voting against the amendment to the amendment.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak on the Council of Ministers' amendment? If no other Member wishes to speak .. I beg your pardon. I am afraid the placing of the mace is not particularly ..

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :

That is always the problem. I should not be so slim; I should put on some weight, have some more lunches and then you would see me both sides of the mace. Just briefly. Absolutely supportive of the position that my colleague, Deputy Mézec , has taken. It seems to me also that the amendment emasculates what was brought forward. I think with my wise head on that I can see half a dozen ways around this that will mean that the Town Park across the whole site is not delivered and that we end up with, I do not know .. I have lost count of how many more units of accommodation we are putting there or thereabouts until we will have the Town Park overshadowed and the grass growing yellow because it does not get enough sunlight, is my impression of what we are getting. I think it is vitally important for St. Helier Deputies, in particular, and St. Saviour, just across the border, and St. Clement, where all of the development is going to happen because it is not happening in the country Parishes. They are not having the green fields. That is where the development is going to be. If the standard set by the first acceptance, the first 300 houses, is anything to go by that will be not embellishment, not improvement to our town; it is going to be, build them cheap; stack them high. That is what we have got so far. We have got a highly dense unit put right next to the park, swamping it, with more to come. What we should be doing is voting against this amendment because that indicates the way forward that we are going to see for the so-called regeneration of St. Helier and town, the urban areas. So I think it is important that we put a signal out to say: "Whoa, whatever you are going to do over the next 4 years pay attention to what is right and proper and do not cut corners" because already the corners have been cut.

4. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :

As enticing as this amendment to the amendment may sound I really read it with the hat on of a St. Helier Deputy who has been disappointed for years. This is in my District and I can read this as examining the benefits and costs of extending the Millennium Town Park and what is not written there and then dismissing this as an idea. Absolutely dismissing it and we will find you some open space somewhere else in St. Helier. I am sorry, the amendment is direct.  I know the Constable has accepted the amendment to the amendment and he believes that there will be .. examine the benefits and costs of extending the Millennium Town Park. I mean unless I am missing something, and I looked, on this amendment to the amendment, there are no financial costs or manpower. I do not know who is doing this. I mean I am waiting for the Minister for Planning and Environment to speak because he might have someone in his department who is already on the case but nothing.. So, it is all well and good for the amendment to the amendment telling me that they are going to do this. I have got residents fearing where they are going .. that their kids are going to play with the Gas Site and Play.com and much more. You have got La Bas Centre. It is all up for being built on and we let this go .. sorry, where are you going to find their open space? Somewhere in the other part of town? Have they got to go People's Park, St. Andrew's Park? It is not feasible. We are on the amendment to the amendment so we will hear from the Chief Minister, and I want to know who is doing this cost benefit? Where is the money coming from even if it is beneficial to St. Helier ? There is nothing I have seen so far and I have asked and asked, where is the funding for your fourth priority? Even the little bit of funding that you are going to do this cost benefit analysis on, buying the Town Park or buying part of it and where are these other open spaces you are going to give to my residents and the whole of the rest of St. Helier? Not convinced. I am not supporting this amendment to the amendment.

5. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

I, too, cannot support this amendment to the amendment. The thing that really concerns me is the wording when it talks about providing additional open space and public car parking as appropriate. What is "as appropriate"? What is the Council of Ministers' definition of that? This deeply concerns me. I know I am going back a very long way when I go back to the mid-1990s when a group of people got together and decided that we would try and achieve some open space for the residents in the north of St. Helier. The vision all those years ago when we finally got there was a vision of standing outside the Odeon Cinema looking down the Town Park, right through to St. Saviour 's Road, a completely large unhindered space by development for the people of St. Helier . I have always supported development happening in St. Helier. I have not got a problem with that. I live in St. Helier and I am proud to be a St. Helier resident but not at the expense of car parking, good amenity space for St. Helier residents and this really concerns me. I was just really hoping that today Members might support the Constable of St. Helier in doing some sort of deal with

Jersey Gas so that we could achieve this. Other Members have spoken about the level of development that is going on in the north of St. Helier . We have literally hundreds and hundreds of new units having been passed, car parking has been compromised; this is a massive issue. Just recently I helped organise a meeting in the Town Hall about the lack of residents' parking, visitors' parking, disabled parking in St. Helier and whatever this Assembly or the Planning Applications Committee agrees developments are selling St. Helier residents short on amenity and parking. This situation is going to get worse and worse and it is simply not fair. I know that this Assembly agreed the Sustainable Transport Policy, which agreed a 15 per cent reduction in commuter traffic, but the word there is "commuter traffic". This is people travelling in from outside of St. Helier into St. Helier. It is not about penalising the people who live in St. Helier. We have as much right to a car to drive out of St. Helier as all those people who live in the countryside have got to drive in whether it is for work, pleasure or whatever and I feel very, very strongly about this. So I would appeal to Members to reject this amendment. As other Members have said, there is no detail there. I think we will be sold down the river. I hate to say that but it seems to me that is how we are treated in St. Helier. That is how the Council of Ministers looks at us. The vast majority of Members in this House live outside of St. Helier and really what goes on in town does not really affect you that much. Okay, I agree with you about it but please, please, just consider the quality of life for children, especially children and older people, and just consider that and reject this amendment and support the Constable of St. Helier .

6. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I am rising to support my colleagues in St. Helier on this. I was looking at the wording of the Constable's amendment to the Strategic Plan and he says: "Insert the words seeking to acquire'", it does not commit the Council of Ministers to acquiring it. Obviously, there has got to be a lot of work done on this particular thing but St. Helier is overcrowded. I have been looking, quite aghast, at all the property developments in that area that are being proposed and to my mind it is a red line. We want to keep the countryside green; we all want that. We want to keep the Parishes standard. If you are going to put people in St. Helier you have got to treat the residents of St. Helier fairly and that does mean we have got to have our fair share of grassy areas where the kids can play, but we have also got to be able to have parking for residents. I live in a house where I do not have parking. I have to park on the street.  I am fighting for a car space against probably about 20 other people who are seeking that same car space. Probably a fair proportion of my salary every month goes on parking fines because if I am working at home, as I do, and I get called by a parishioner on the phone and I do not get out in time the parking wardens have given me another ticket. Now, this is commonplace for a lot of people in St. Helier. You cannot keep your car there all the time or you have got to go out and change the disc or whatever. It is a nightmare so we have got to provide facilities for the residents in St. Helier. I would urge the other Constables to support our Constable on this particular matter because imagine yourselves in the same situation. Would it be tolerable to you? I do not think so. So, I think for all St. Helier Deputies these are red lines. So I urge you to support the Constable of St. Helier and reject the Council of Ministers' amendment. It does not make any real difference. We are saying "seeking to acquire". It does not mean to say we will. There may be arguments against, maybe we cannot afford it or whatever, but the point is, reject their amendment and support the Constable of Helier.

7. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John :

As a Constable of a country Parish I am rather concerned that we already pay nearly half our rates over to St. Helier and if taxpayers' money is also to be used to purchase open green spaces in St. Helier it means that we are, as a country Parish, paying twice and this concerns me. An issue of car parking has been brought up by Deputy Higgins and again I strongly support that. Significantly more car parking is required in St. Helier so that cars can come in from the countryside and so that residents have got parking and there are sufficient facilities for the cars on this Island. I also support very strongly the idea of open space. It is important. The residents of St. Helier do need it but perhaps it should be done through the rates and St. Helier Parish purchase rather than the taxpayer purchase. Perhaps that is something that should be examined.