States Meeting Transcript - 30th April 2015

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT THURSDAY, 30th APRIL 2015

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................3

1. The Bailiff :..............................................................................3

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption ...............................................................3

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): tenth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(10))

- paragraphs (2) and (3) - resumption....................................................3

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:......................................................3

1. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:...................................................4
2. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:...........................................................4

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): eleventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(11)) - paragraphs (3)(b), (3)(c) and (3)(d).........................................8

2.2.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence : ..............................................8

3. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): third amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(3)) .8

1. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :................................................8
2. Senator I.J. Gorst :........................................................................9

4. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): fourth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(4))9

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:......................................................9
2. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:........................................................12
3. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:.................................................12
4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................13
5. Senator Z.A. Cameron:.................................................................14
6. Senator A.K.F. Green: ..................................................................14
7. Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement:.......................................................15
8. Deputy J.A. Martin of St Helier:........................................................15

9. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement:......................................................16
10. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................17
11. Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity : .......................................................19
12. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:.................................................20
13. Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:...................................................20
14. Connétable P.B. Le Sueur of Trinity :................................................21
15. Senator P.F. Routier:................................................................21
16. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier : ....................................................24
17. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................24
18. Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter:................................................25
19. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:..................................................25
20. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ..................................................26

21. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier : ....................................................26
22. Deputy G.P. Southern ...............................................................27

5. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): fifth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(5)).31

2.5.1 Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................31

6. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): fifth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(5)) - amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(5)Amd.)..................................................33

1. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................34
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................35
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................36
4. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................37

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................38 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................39

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................39
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................41
7. Senator I.J. Gorst :......................................................................41

7. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): fifth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(5)) - as amended..............................................................................43

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
2. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................43

8. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015) - as amended............................44

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44
2. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................46
3. Senator Z.A. Cameron:.................................................................48
4. Senator A.K.F. Green: ..................................................................51
5. The Deputy of Trinity :..................................................................52
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................54
7. Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:...............................................55
8. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................55
9. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................56
10. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................61
11. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................65
12. Senator I.J. Gorst : ...................................................................65

3. Income Support Medical Appeals Tribunal: appointment of members (P.30/2015)..69

3.1 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):...................................69

4. Income Support Medical Appeals Tribunal: appointment of members (P.31/2015)..70

4.1 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):...................................70

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS ....................71

5. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):....71

ADJOURNMENT................................................................................71

[9:32]

The Roll was called and the Vice-Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. The Bailiff :

Members will be aware that today marks the last day in office for Michael Wilkins as Viscount, one of the officers of this Assembly. He was appointed to that office in 1981 and although his job perhaps does not require his presence in this Assembly as often today as in centuries past when Jurats, Rectors and Deputies did not behave as well as they do now, he has been a faithful servant of the Assembly since then. Members will be accustomed to seeing him carry the seal of King Edward I upon its cushion on all ceremonial occasions, an exercise which is harder than it looks, but the Viscount assures me that it tones up his forearms for tennis, which he enjoys at the weekend. As Viscount, Michael Wilkins has been particularly active in the field of insolvency and, indeed, the co-author of a notable textbook, and he is expert in that area. He was also appointed Judicial Greffier in 1997. He has been a superb servant of this Assembly and of this Island, as indeed was recognised by an award of the M.B.E. (Member of the Order of the British Empire) in the Queen's Birthday Honours of 2011. On behalf of all Members, I thank him for his service and I wish him well for his retirement. [Approbation] It is also the last day for the Vice-Dean as Dean substitute in this Assembly as the Dean will be returning after his sabbatical for the next meeting. I would like to take the opportunity of thanking him very much for his assistance. [Approbation]

PUBLIC BUSINESS – resumption

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): tenth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(10)) - paragraphs (2) and (3) - resumption

The Bailiff :

We now resume debate on amendments 10(2) and 10(3) to the Strategic Plan. Does any Member wish to speak? Deputy Maçon.

1. Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour :

I think what struck me yesterday is out of many of the speeches given certainly one of the most enthusiastic ones that was given was by Deputy Labey . It struck me, thinking about the Strategic Plan, thinking about this document is about vision, this document is about aspiration and things to achieve, and when we look at the Strategic Plan a lot of it is not major policy change. A lot of it is business as usual. A lot of it is, well, we have to do this anyway. Some of it is picking up on stuff we should have already done in the last term: reference public sector reform, et cetera. We should be 3 years down the line on that. So we are looking at the document and we want something aspirational and something to give vision. It is a bit lacklustre. So what struck me with Deputy Labey 's amendment is here we have some vision, something about what the Island could do and achieve and what it could be, which I thought was very inspirational. What I want to touch on is looking at what Deputy Labey 's amendment tries to achieve. It fits in with a lot of established States policy, whether that is the sustainable transport policies, whether that is the health policies of exercise and public promotion, it fits in with that as well. It fits in with our tourism policies which are trying to encourage people to the Island. While driving back, as I was given the courtesy of a lift home by the Deputy of Grouville very kindly yesterday, we drove through the Havre des Pas area and it is in need of a lot of love and care and attention. It is in need of that. Looking at the whole aspect of the fourth strategic priority in this Strategic Plan, which is St. Helier, of course .. although as I pointed out in the draft version, it is the central urban area, but never mind, we will carry on. Looking at how funds will be spent on that area, already we are looking at .. well, Deputy Vallois is twitching and it is the point that Deputy Martin raised of where is the money going to come from for this priority, which is absolutely a fair point to raise. Looking at those particular areas, we do need to do what we can in order to improve the living areas in those parts of the town. Then we started to get into this argument of my masterplan is better than your masterplan because my masterplan encompasses this much but yours only looks at this much. Of course, going back to certain masterplans such as the North of Town Masterplan, there are elements which were not mentioned about it yesterday, which is within that masterplan buildings, were supposed to be bought and knocked down in order to provide better pathways through the north of town. That document was 2010. We are 2015; that has not happened. Also, there was supposed to be chunks of areas which were then supposed to be bought and turned into green spaces. Well, that has not happened. The money for that probably is not going to come forward. So when we start talking about "let us have this huge masterplan in order to cover the whole of the central urban area in order to achieve what we want to", inevitably it is going to be a phased approach which is going to have to happen. So, although the criticism from the Council of Ministers has been this only looks at one particular part and we want to look at the whole thing, well, we are going to have to do a phased approach anyway. So here we have an element where we can start, which is achievable, and, therefore, I think that the Assembly should try and love the central urban area and support Deputy Labey this morning.

1. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour :

There is a book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I know that the Chief Minister is familiar with this book. Some people chuckled, which I half expected, but I know one of the habits of highly effective people is to begin with the end in mind. Now, you could argue that the Strategic Plan, this section of it, begins with the end in mind, the end being a nice end. We are going somewhere nice. It is like maybe a metaphor of somebody setting off on a journey. Where are you going? Somewhere nice. Do you know where? No, I am going to start and end up somewhere nice. I do not doubt that the somewhere nice will be a very pleasant thing indeed because there is a fine team of people who will be putting together an excellent vision of St. Helier in the future. However, I rather fear that the dumping ground that is the Havre des Pas area, the districts of Deputies Labey et al, will yet again be left somewhere on the back burner. I rather fear for them because, after all, they are our neighbours, Deputy Maçon and myself, and so I am speaking partly for the people in our district as well. So I would like to see some commitment to this poor, dumped-upon area. My father grew up there. I have spent a lot of time down in that area. The McLintons basically started off at Havre des Pas and moved off to Georgetown, so there is a synergy between the 2.

[9:45]

Now, if the Minister in his summing up could give a commitment that this will happen in Havre des Pas, then I would be happy to reject the amendment simply because I would know that there is a commitment to it on record, that poor old Havre des Pas will be looked after in the Strategic Plan. If, however, as I suspect, it will not be committed to, then I will certainly be supporting this amendment because I think the poor, put-upon people of the area of Havre des Pas certainly need a bright and breezy area in which to live, work and enjoy.

The Bailiff :

Does any other Member wish to speak? Then I call on Deputy Labey to reply.

2. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier :

Can I propose raising the défaut on Senator Cameron?

The Bailiff :

Well, she is here ..

Deputy R. Labey :

She is already .. okay. [Laughter] I did not want to lose her vote.

The Bailiff :

No, quite.

Deputy R. Labey :

But I do want to get finished before Senator Maclean arrives back in the Chamber. [Laughter] The Bailiff :

You may have lost her, Deputy , but she was here earlier. [Laughter]

Deputy R. Labey :

I thank the speakers this morning and yesterday and, to the last speaker, you are going to have to vote with me now because the Minister does not get a chance to reply and give you an assurance. I would like to thank the Minister for Planning and Environment for his very reasonable treatment of me yesterday and especially for opening up La Collette, so important. As I said yesterday, that area has been dead and if you kill an area you kill the amenities around it; they will die. So, that is welcome news. I also welcome the Minister for Planning and Environment being part of this high- level overview - I am going to avoid the "M" word completely this morning - because he is a man of action and I know he wants to get going. He is an action man in the best sense of the word, as is the Minister for Transport and Technical Services. He is a man of action. He is an action man. They both are, as am I, and this is an action plan. However eloquently but lengthily Senator Ozouf splits hairs, this is an action plan. Senator Ozouf is right to highlight the furore that the Constable of St. Brelade copped when the St. Aubin improvement plans started, but they are not carping now at that. It is excellent. The horizontal services are up to scratch and brilliant and the traffic calming works, it seems to me, extremely well and in an inoffensive way. I should apologise to the Constable of St. Mary for calling the new cobbles a roundabout. They are not a roundabout. They are, in fact, a square.

Deputy R. Labey :

What they do is tell motorists on approach that this is not a road, this is not just a thoroughfare, it is a square and there may be people on that square and it is sensible to slow down. That is sophisticated traffic calming which looks good and is appropriate and I applaud it. I think the Constable of St. Mary and the Deputy will find that the furore there drops down. Also, the furore is not coming from people who live on that road and that is what that traffic calming is all about, for the people who live on that road. That is what I want for Green Street and it is urgent. The chicanes are carnage. I am not asking for granite for Green Street or for the promenade, I am just asking for concrete, but a better concrete with literary quotations imprinted on it, a literary walk. I am indebted to the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture for last night sending me a quote from T.E. Lawrence. It is the quote about men who dream at night, wake up and find it is vanity; men who dream in the day, open their eyes, are dangerous men because they act on their dreams and they make things possible. I know why the Minister sent it to me and I thank him and it lifted my spirits. I want that quotation on our literary walk pertaining to people in the area. It was interesting, in the summer I was .. actually, I think I was doing my leafleting for the election and I saw one of the blue coaches arrive on the end of Havre des Pas as it goes up to South Hill. The coach pulled over, put the hazard lights on and waited there for about 3 or 4 minutes and then it indicated and drove off. I said to a local who was there: "What is that all about?" and he said: "Oh, well, they stop at the house where T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, lived for a while and they take their pictures from the coach and then off they go." I want the coach to be able to park somewhere in Havre des Pas, for those people to get off, do my literary walk, walk to the most southerly place in the British Isles - forgetting the Minkies - have their selfie there, do the loop, come back, and use the amenities in Havre des Pas. People are investing in those amenities. There are some very good restaurants and pubs and those landlords have invested a lot of money in upkeeping them. Then you walk from one of those places along Havre des Pas and it is shabby and it is dreary. The most telling contribution probably of the day yesterday was that from Deputy Andrew Lewis because I did exactly what he did. After his speech, I went on to Google and I googled Havre des Pas. It is terrifying that one of the things that pops up is TripAdvisor, very, very, very critical. I do not really want to repeat it because I do not want it to go on Hansard, but it talks of it being a poor location, to be avoided, it talks of walking into town from there in streets that are not lit properly, and the parking issue. As any hotelier or restaurateur or guest house owner will tell you, those TripAdvisor comments are commercial death. They are very, very destructive and the tourism Minister should be jumping up and down about this. Of course, he cannot. The Minister for Economic Development should be jumping up and down about this because it is highly detrimental. It is highly damaging. But, of course, he cannot because he, I think, is bound by collective responsibility, which I think is a shame. It is quite depressing as a Back-Bencher putting these things forward because now you are meeting the wall of collective responsibility. You have no chance to convert Ministers by the debate and I think the debates are poorer. Are they not bound? Are you releasing them? Is the Chief Minister releasing them?

The Bailiff : Through the Chair. Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not know if the Deputy is giving way to me but I thank him very much. That is very kind. The Minister for Economic Development is free to speak about tourism matters and he frequently does. He can make statements that are in line with government policy, which is rejuvenating the whole of St. Helier , and that is exactly the reason that Ministers have put this priority in their plan. I tried to speak before the Deputy stood just to give the commitment, certainly, that Deputy McLinton wanted and that the Minister for Planning and Environment gave yesterday about action together with T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) in ..

The Bailiff :

I think, Chief Minister, this is too late for a speech.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy kindly gave way.

Deputy R. Labey :

I think you are taking advantage. I think the Minister is taking advantage of me giving way. The Bailiff :

He is taking advantage of you, Deputy .

Deputy R. Labey :

He is. [Laughter] So let us strike a blow against that. I appeal to Members, appeal to the Connétable s, I appeal to the Back-Benchers, I appeal to the Assistant Ministers, come on, let us strike a blow against this. I am not trying to steal a march here. I am trying to blaze a trail for a local area. The reason why I put this in and why it is Havre des Pas is not because I want to get in there first, because it is more special, because it is more important, it is because we are a little bit further down the line with this than most other areas because we have a well-established Havre des

Pas improvement group. I should inform you that much of what is in my report has already been presented by T.T.S. to the Havre des Pas improvement group. That happened last October. That carrot has been dangled and I just do not want that carrot to be gobbled up by the behemoth that could be this all-encompassing massive review of the whole area. It is about putting 3 little words into this document: Havre des Pas. Now, I know my style is forceful. People have commented on it and I know perhaps I am over-loud and people are disdainful of it. I will try to conform in future and I will try to know where to draw the line in future, but please do not confuse my style and theatricality with any insincerity. I have to face the residents of Havre des Pas every month in that group meeting, along with Deputy Martin, along with Deputy Wickenden, along with Constable Crowcroft , and that meeting is full of sincerity and passion and disappointment and frustration and hope. I want to give these people some hope and some action. It is a small concession. Let us have a look at those cycle paths over the pier heads. Let us do the study. Let us see if it is feasible. Let us see how much it will cost. Let us smarten up the area. Let us try and defeat that awful comment on TripAdvisor, which is so dangerous but so revealing. That is an ordinary person just giving their view and it is painful to read. Let us stop the rot. Let us have some action. I move and maintain the amendment and ask for the appel.

The Bailiff :

The appel is called for. The amendments you wish us to take together? Deputy R. Labey :

I think we should take them separately.

The Bailiff :

Separately, very well. Then the vote is on amendment number 10, paragraph (2), and I invite Members to return to their seats. I ask the Greffier to open the voting.

The Bailiff :

Very well. Deputy , according to the running plan, the loss of that amendment means that paragraph 10(3) falls away.

2. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): eleventh amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(11))

- paragraphs (3)(b), (3)(c) and (3)(d)

The Bailiff :

Very well, we now come to amendment 11, paragraphs (3)(b), (3)(c) and (3)(d). I am going to ask the Greffier to read the amendments together.

The Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words - "except that" - (3)(b) on page 15, in the first paragraph, after the words "costs than elsewhere" insert the words "; a pressing need to place Jersey on the path of fiscal balance"; after the words "coping financially" insert the words: "It is, therefore, critical that we have sound and sustainable public finances."; and in the second paragraph, before the words "4 priorities" insert the word "other"; 3(c), on page 16, for the words: "The  Council's  4  priorities"  substitute  the  words:  "The  Council's  5  priorities";  3(d),  delete paragraphs 18 and 19, service delivery and funding, and renumber pages and priorities as required.

The Bailiff :

Lodged by the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel. Oh, there you are, yes.  You have moved. Deputy Le Fondré, it seems to be convenient to take all 3 together if that is ..? Very well.

2.2.1 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

Yes, thank you. As I said, my understanding is that the Council of Ministers are obviously accepting these because they are consequential amendments, having inserted the main amendment earlier I think yesterday. It might even have been Tuesday. So, for example, now instead of having 4 priorities we make reference to "other" 4 priorities and we are obviously just tweaking the words accordingly as a result of the changes that have already been put in place. On the basis that they are not controversial or anything along those lines, I shall stop there and move the amendment.

The Bailiff :

Is the amendment seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak? All Members in favour of adopting the 3 amendments kindly show? Those against? The amendments are adopted.

3. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): third amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(3)) The Bailiff :

We now come to amendment number 3 lodged by the Connétable of Grouville . I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Greffier of the States:

After the words: "In the attached Appendix" insert the words - ", except that in the chart numbered 5.1 on page 18 of the draft Plan, in the column headed Key Areas of Focus 2015-2018' after the words Deliver e-government' insert the words to a level and timescale that will be set out in the Corporate Delivery Plan'."

1. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :

The Council of Ministers have accepted this, in fact welcomed this amendment. I hope there is nobody in the room that does not want to set targets and timescale, so I think I need speak no further and I propose the amendment.

The Bailiff :

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak? [10:00]

2. Senator I.J. Gorst :

Just to say we do indeed welcome the Constable's amendment as it will focus the programme and hopefully bring delivery forward, so we thank him for his pertinent amendment.

The Bailiff :

Do you wish to reply? All Members in favour of adopting the amendment kindly show? Those against? The amendment is adopted.

4. Draft Strategic Plan 2015 - 2018 (P.27/2015): fourth amendment (P.27/2015 Amd.(4)) The Bailiff :

We now come to amendment number 4 lodged by Deputy Southern and I ask the Greffier to read the amendment.

The Greffier of the States:

After the words "in the attached Appendix" insert the words -", except that in the chart on page 18 of the draft Plan, after row 5.1 there should be inserted an additional row as follows. Desired outcome. 5.2 Commitment to the first 1,001 Days agenda made real. Key areas of focus. Extend statutory maternity leave to 26 weeks paid out of social security contributions; expand capacity for free nursery places from 20 to 30 hours per week; increase the number of health visitors to meet the U.K. (United Kingdom) recommended level for average caseload of preschool children."

1. Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

Two days ago I would have said that this was a fairly routine amendment and that it was in serious danger of going through on the nod. However, the tenor of the debate we have had so far has been otherwise. The Council of Ministers have dug their heels in time and time again and argued in some cases over wording of 6 words, sentences of 6 words, and said: "That is not good enough." Time and time again the Council of Ministers has argued against very straightforward and feasible and practical and useful propositions. I believe that my amendment could be described thus. Let us focus once again on the process, remembering that this is the overall strategic planning and that gets put into action in the Medium-Term Financial Plan and that is when the money gets attached to it. This is, today, deciding priorities. It is not the action. The action takes place later. We will see those plans in June/July and we will vote on them in September. However, what one can be sure of, given the squeeze that we have on financing, is that if it does not get on the priority list in some concrete way you will not be seeing it in the Medium-Term Financial Plan and, once again, it will be up to this House to bring amendments to say: "Hang on, the priorities you have are not right. Put this back in." What we have here is classic invest to save. If you put the effort in in the early years, you reap the rewards 10, 20, 30, lifetimes later with better education outcomes, better health outcomes, better social outcomes, fewer people in prison, fewer drugs, et cetera. You cannot

necessarily measure it in any particular way, but you can say that you have improved outcomes time and time again. For investment now, you reap fivefold, tenfold, whatever, that sort of answer in the long run. That is exactly what this ministerial government is saying that they have embarked on, in particular with public services. Invest to save in the long term, that is what we are told. So it

fits in entirely with what ought to be Council of Ministers strategic planning. Let us have a look then at the comments issued by the Council of Ministers and note that we have 4 statements absolutely totally positive about 1,001 Days. Under 2.4: "Support children and families during critical preschool years." Further on: "Support children and families from conception through the critical preschool years outlined in the 1,001 Days initiative and beyond." That is an amendment that has been accepted and looks fairly concrete. "Reduce demand on services by investing in early interventions." Here is the use of the "invest" word. Yes, it will cost money but it will save money in the short term. The money is not issued today. The money is issued and debated and authorised come September. Then we have: "The Council of Ministers firmly believes in this agenda. The States now have a firm commitment to the first 1,001 Days agenda and the pending establishment of an early years' task force is an important development." Indeed, apparently the Ministers have responded to the report that I make use of, the E. C.D . (Early Childhood Development) report by UBS, and have put out a news release on 27th April which says: "As part of a restructuring, the task force will examine the services available to support children during the critical early years, identify any gaps and find solutions for those gaps." Well, that is very laudable, laudable indeed. So why, despite repeated statements of support for children, do the Ministers end up both in the opening line and in the last line saying: "The Council of Ministers strongly recommends this amendment be rejected"? The Council of Ministers strongly recommends that this amendment be rejected, top and tail. Not only ordinary rejection, which is normal, but strongly recommends rejection. Not even: "We like bits of it and you might have the right idea, but overall we do not want to vote for it." Strongly recommends; this is something that is somehow completely wrong according to the Ministers. Well, I invite the Ministers to prove how completely wrong it is because I do not believe it is. It is very much in the spirit of support for early years, 1,001 Days initiatives. So let us have a look at what the UBS report says. Perhaps I could do no better than start with the introduction: "The UBS Optimus Foundation commissioned this report to examine opportunities for enhancing early child development in Jersey both through raising the population average achievement and through reducing inequalities." Here comes that word again, inequalities, equalities. They have been against it all 3 days on this debate. Every time anybody mentions equality, fairness, they came out against it. "In particular, this report aims to describe the landscape of early years childhood in Jersey, describe the services available to enhance E. C.D ., identify gaps in those services, and make recommendations for enhancing E. C.D ." What is the task force entitled to do, tasked to do? Identify any gaps and find solutions for those gaps. The report has already been done. While the task force has things to do, it is about prioritising. It is about designing systems, about how best to apply. But in terms of identifying the gaps and finding solutions, that has been done. I will just go briefly through what they say. What are the gaps? Several gaps in knowledge and services were found, the lack of data on preschool children. There is little communication between G.P.s (general practitioners) and health visitors, insufficient support for C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service), some families are more at risk than others, et cetera. There is a list of at least 10 issues that could be taken on. I have extracted 3 issues from this report and said: "Let us start here." The recommendations: "1. Improve the current service provision. Health visitor numbers should be increased." That is in my proposition. "Improve access to high-quality services," access to Bridge and Samarès, et cetera. "Increase the quality of childcare and education services, public health campaign on early literacy, improve local E. C.D . capacity through improving intelligence, and evaluate the system as to how well it is working and how to make improvements." So, nothing there that this Council of Ministers should really be objecting to, I do not believe. Let us just examine then what I am proposing. I am proposing that commitment expressed by the Council of Ministers to the first 1,001 Days agenda is made real, and I am trying to get something that says: "Do something." Do not give me a report on it, do not discuss it, do not sit around discussing it, do something, commit now to putting this in your Medium-Term Financial Plan so that something gets done. In the 2 months between now and the Medium-Term Financial Plan work out how best to deliver it. I think in the key areas of focus this means extending statutory maternity leave to 26 weeks. Could I have some water, please?  [Interruption] Apologies, that is not just an ordinary frog in my throat. We do not have them in Jersey, not very many of them. It is one of the toads from my back pond. Right, extend the statutory maternity leave to 26 weeks paid out of social security contributions. This is the starting point for the 1,001 Days. It is about maternity leave. In the report, it already says the following, and this is why I focused on it, apart from my own concern, the fact we do not have proper, I believe, statutory maternity leave and the issues are still there: "Some employers currently provide paid leave of up to 6 months. The general pattern at present among most working families appears to be of taking around 4 months [it is fairly low in Jersey] paid for from savings." Why is it that low? Because people cannot afford to. We understand that breastfeeding is initiated by most mothers but continuation beyond 6 weeks is relatively uncommon, reportedly due to early return to work. Now, again, early return to work and they are 6 weeks breastfeeding. Now, there is evidence from around the world that this is a key bonding issue, the very core of 1,001 Days initiatives, bonding in the family between mother and child, particularly through breastfeeding, but certainly having the time off to establish that bond in the very earliest days is absolutely vital. Miss out on this, I believe, and you have to start playing catch-up almost straight away. Yet we have made some moves and we do not have that element of 6 months, which is fairly universally recommended, nor do we have the issue of how we are going to afford that done and dusted. We have 2 weeks' paid leave and a Minister for Social Security who has already committed to review this, I believe, in the coming year, to consult and to come back with proposals. So, there is very little advance in my proposition from what is intended. In the 3 to 4 years of this plan this is perfectly feasible. Even within the Minister for Social Security's own remit, she has it pencilled in, we can do the work, so this is perfectly practical and can be done.

[10:15]

Expand the capacity for free nursery places from 20 to 30 hours per week. In our low-wage culture with high rents and high costs, expand the system we already have, build on it from 20 hours a week to 30 hours a week I am suggesting is the way forward. Why am I? Because, as it says in the report - the work has already been done, it is sitting there - the costs of childcare are high: "Full- time care for children aged nought to 3 years generally costs £5 to £8 an hour or £855 to £1,368 per month." That is a heavy load, whether provided in centres or by a registered family child carer. "Lone parents and parents with low income, therefore, struggle to afford centre-based childcare and often seek less formal arrangements with care provided by family or friends. Some parents are forced to place their children in illegal childcare settings with much lower costs, sometimes paying as little as £1 an hour or payment made in kind." We have heard evidence that these arrangements are often unsatisfactory and sometimes border on illegality. Okay, so I am saying let us make a move to improve access and free access to childcare, quality childcare that takes place in proper conditions where the language skills are being built up, where the social skills are being built up, and not in unsatisfactory, perhaps illegal settings where language developments and interaction are not taking place. Then my third initiative: increase the number of health visitors to meet the U.K. recommended level for average caseload for preschool children, and here it is very straightforward. There are 14.8 whole-time equivalent health visitors on Jersey, including 4 new posts, so the average caseload of preschool children is at least 330, which is above the nationally recommended figure in the U.K. of 250. That is my third branch of what I think we should start doing straight away, and it is very clearly laid out in the report that this is one of the recommendations, very clear. So, what do I have in my proposition that sets the priorities, that sets the framework going forward to the Medium-Term Financial Plan, which we can decide to spend money on or not as we come to September? I have 3 doing words, to use the old-fashioned primary school expression, which my wife says is not accurate but nonetheless they are to me. They are verbs, they are doing words, and

that is what I like to hear. The doing words are extend statutory maternity leave - already planned in some form or other, I say get on with it - expand capacity, expand, and then, finally, increase the number of health visitors. Those are my 3 action words. I think it is perfectly safe to put those 3 actions into the Strategic Plan as priorities so that they can be translated into the Medium-Term Financial Plan and over the next 3 years perhaps we have the opportunity of making everyone in this room's commitment to the 1,001 Days initiative .. this is the way to improve our society from birth onwards, from pre-birth onwards, from conception. Put it into action so that the support we would all give .. and each Minister has. I have heard them all say it on the hustings, totally support 1,001 Days. This is the way to put that into action. Make it real. As I say, make the first 1,001 Days agenda real. That is what this does and I maintain the proposition.

The Bailiff :

Is it seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to speak? Yes, Deputy of St. Peter .

2. Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter :

The Council of Ministers is, as the Deputy rightly points out, very committed to the 1,001 Days strategy. It is part of the Chief Minister's election manifesto and the 1,001 Days is a cross-party manifesto. It is an approach and I am very pleased to see that the Reform Party are also signing up to this cross-party approach. Like our Strategic Plan, it sets out a way of thinking. It is not prescriptive and while well intentioned, this amendment, I believe, is too prescriptive. We are already doing a lot, a great deal, in this area and making significant improvements in services for parents and young children. Take sustained home visiting, for example, community midwives who are operating now from G.P. surgeries, the Samarès children and family centre, which offers non- stigmatised access to universal services for all families with pathway support for vulnerable families, family care co-ordinator focusing on families with young children with complex needs. They are all good initiatives. We need to ensure that we address the 1,001 Days in a holistic way. We require a strategic approach as opposed to an initiative-led approach. In January this year, the Chief Minister announced setting up the dedicated task force. We are making the early years agenda real. It is in the Strategic Plan and we have seen already the acceptance of Deputy Doublet 's excellent amendments, which reinforce our belief in the 1,001 Days strategy. Earlier this week we announced the appointment of the director of the early years' task force. This is a key role and the director will take her post next week and begin the work, which will work across departments and it will also take into account the very helpful UBS early years report which the Deputy has referred to. The first work of the task force director will be to analyse the need that we see in the Island, taking into account the UBS report. It will then move on to identify the gaps we have in service and bring forward the right solutions for Jersey families. What do we need and what do we currently do that we do not need? It is very much an invest to save initiative and it will do so in consultation with families. There will be no second guessing of their needs or the solutions, unlike this proposition. In addition to the task force, other essential building blocks are being put into place. Our early help initiative, for example, will be launched in the coming weeks. This provides all professionals, teachers, social workers, staff in charities, nurses or others, an easy to use tool for helping to identify and assess the needs of families. It is a tool which helps to ensure that families who are under stress or who need help are quickly and efficiently referred to the services they need. It will help to ensure those families are not passed from pillar to post continually having to repeat their story. This proposition is not backed by evidence. We simply do not know if the proposals it includes are those that will deliver the right change for families. We must let the task force do its work first. As the Deputy stated in an earlier speech, this is a Strategic Plan, an opportunity to set the compass. As the Deputy said himself, this is not an action plan. I

urge Members to reject this amendment.

3. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour :

This amendment is the one that I have spent most time looking at and thinking about, apart from my own, of course. I really want to thank Deputy Southern for bringing this because these issues are so, so important. I think for too long the States Assembly has had too much of a short-sighted approach and - I hate to use these words - silo mentality. As I said on Tuesday, the 1,001 Days initiative, the fact that it has been accepted by the Council of Ministers, gives me so much optimism. Looking at these 3 points that Deputy Southern has picked out here, I do agree with all of them, but I also agree with the things that the Council of Ministers have pointed out in their comments. For example, the paragraph at the end of page 2 on the comments: "No consideration is given as to whether better alternatives may exist." So, for me, the statutory maternity leave, that is so important. If I was prioritising these things, that is what I would put first. But I am not sure I would put the other 2 things first. There are other things that can be done from the 1,001 Days commitment that do not really cost much, if anything, like giving training to childcare settings in attachment so they can focus on the attachment needs of babies, to encourage more reading among families. There are other things that we can do at this time when we do not have as much funds as we might like to give to these things, that we could maybe do first because we do have to balance out the need for these things which are really important and the money that we have. I have to trust the Ministers on this somewhat, I do, because they have made steps. There is an early years' task force that is in place. The lead person has been appointed. There is movement on it. There is. The Minister for Social Security is looking into the maternity arrangements. So I think we do have to trust the Ministers and watch and wait and see what happens. I was not sure which way I was going to vote on this because, as I said, there are things from the Ministers and there are things from Deputy Southern that I agree with. I will be supporting it simply because I believe that the 26 weeks' minimum statutory maternity leave is so, so important and I cannot stress that enough. That is so important that we get that in as soon as possible because if we continue to let .. it is damage that is being done to babies, to young Islanders. If we let that continue, then we are just storing up problems for the future. So, I would urge Members to indicate their support for the babies, infants, children, young people of our Island and vote for this amendment and say: "We are thinking about you and we do care about you and we want to do something about it." Once again, I want to thank Deputy Southern for this. Just one last comment: I think something has maybe gone wrong in that Deputy Southern should be on the Council of Ministers because I could not support his amendment yesterday because there were more things on the Council of Ministers' section that I agreed with, but there are so many things on there that should have been in there. I maybe want to see more openness from the Ministers and listening to Deputy Southern and other Back-Benchers because

there is a lot of good there.

4. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

Hear, hear to those last comments in that last speech. I could not possibly endorse them anymore. She was absolutely right there. I stood on an election manifesto which said very clearly that I, alongside my Reform Jersey colleagues, would support 26 weeks' paid statutory maternity leave, so to not support something that aims to get a solid commitment on that would be a complete betrayal of the people who voted for me and the people who voted for the other members of my party. In politics, I think there is often a very simple choice between 2 things. You can say you are in favour of something or you can be in favour of something, and unlike the previous speaker I do not have faith in the Council of Ministers, especially after the past few days where I see them having purported to be in support of something and then having not just voted against something to give some concrete steps towards action on those points but have actually urged other Members to vote against them as well. So, frankly, in politics I care absolutely nothing for platitudes. I want action and I want tangible outcomes and that is what the purpose of this amendment is. Frankly, this argument that we should not accept this because it is pre-empting the task force I just think is utterly absurd. Is this task force really going to come out and say: "Do you know what we do not need is more maternity leave", when we only have 2 weeks' paid maternity leave in the first place? Are they really going to come out and say 2 weeks is sufficient? Of course they are not. As Deputy Southern said, the overwhelming evidence is that babies need at least 6 months with their mother to bond with them properly. How you can disagree with the medicine and the science behind it is just unbelievable.

[10:30]

That will inevitably be something we have to work towards. We are already years and years behind the rest of Europe on maternity leave. It is going to be something we have to move forward to, so what on earth is wrong with supporting something that says, okay, we are specifically committed to that? It just does not make sense. Is the task force really going to say: "Do you know what we do not need more of is more easy access to nursery places for children"? Are they really going to suggest that? Of course they are not. Nursery care in Jersey is extortionately expensive. I know this because a close relative of mine has recently had a baby and she is really struggling with it. She is doing a great job because she is tough and she is hard working, but it is not easy. To make it easier for those families, especially when you consider that most of the families that will struggle are going to be the poorer families, the families that will find it naturally harder to give the best start to their children in life because of everything else that is connected to that, that extra help would specifically help children from poorer backgrounds who face the most challenges anyway. So I cannot foresee a task force saying that we should not do that. This, as far as I am concerned, is such a clear choice between platitudes or delivering action. That is the difference here. It does not matter how many photographs you get taken for the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) in front of a 1,001 Days manifesto if you do not end up with anything out of it. It does not matter how many speeches at how many conferences you give, what matters is outcomes and this is what this is about. For goodness sake, we cannot just say we are in support of something and not be willing to put our money where our mouth is. That is the worst of politics and it is what has led so many Islanders to being disillusioned with it. It is politicians standing up and saying one thing and not delivering on it. That is what this amendment does. It is aimed so we can reach these outcomes, so I urge Members to support it.

5. Senator Z.A. Cameron:

This is an area very close to my heart and I would like to congratulate Deputy Southern in encapsulating some of the key areas necessary for success of the 1,001 Days manifesto. With regard to maternity leave, which I would prefer included parental leave, Jersey of all places should be aware of the dangers of institutional care at too young an age. High quality nursery care from 2 to 3 years helps ensure social development and lessens the gap between children that is already apparent by age 5. With regard to health visitors, this is absolutely necessary to ensure that the children's development is properly screened and we pick up those signs of those that are not necessarily receiving the attention that they deserve at a young age and to help enhance that and help parents to put that in place if that is necessary. So I will be supporting this amendment.

6. Senator A.K.F. Green:

Like my colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs, I am a little concerned that we are putting the outcomes before we have done the work in terms of everything that needs to be done. We are absolutely committed to 1,001 Days. That is not lip service or platitudes or anything else. It is an absolute commitment. The task force has been put together. A chief officer has been appointed to run this, but those things that Deputy Southern has pointed out may well be the ones that form part of the work that we will need to do. I think it is quite likely that some of that will be there, but there may be other things that will have a greater impact, a greater benefit. What we are doing here is putting the outcomes before the work has been done. What I like to do is to look at the work. I keep getting told by my colleagues in Scrutiny that the work you should do should be evidence based. Well, we need to get that evidence, look at what has the greatest outcome, look at what has the greatest benefit, absolutely committed to 1,001 Days as my colleagues are, but let us do it properly and let us make sure that we get the greatest benefit to ensure that our young people have the best start in life.

7. Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement :

With reference to the first part of the proposition, we have debated the maternity leave period a number of times recently. Members will recall - and as mentioned by Deputy Southern in his opening remarks - that I have committed to review the family friendly rights one year after the law comes into force, i.e. September 2016. This will include consultation by the Employment Forum on a second stage of rights in which the periods of leave might be extended. A 26-week maternity leave entitlement may be our next goal. However, 26 weeks maternity benefit brings a cost to the States. When we debated Deputy Southern 's proposal for 26 weeks maternity benefit last year, it was made very clear to the Assembly that the Social Security Fund would not be able to tolerate the £1.5 million additional cost. This proposed amendment would bring an even greater cost to the States if the fund needs to cover the cost of statutory maternity pay rather than provide maternity benefit. These proposals come at a time when we already need to make significant changes to our existing contributions and benefits so that the Social Security Fund is sustainable over the next few decades. I also wish to reiterate that the Council of Ministers is fully signed up to the 1,001 Days manifesto and the early years' task force.

8. Deputy J.A. Martin of St Helier:

Yes, and it is one of those amendments where you look at it and you think: yes. I am committed to the 1,001 Days and I feel Deputy Southern 's frustration because this is not the first commitment. I have been here long enough and I have been in Health and I have been the Assistant Minister with responsibility for children, looked-after children. We have had different reports and we have been promised the earth. Yes, I do not disagree that the longer you can take off work and spend with your child has to be right. The second one - and I think these all will be voted on together - expand capacity for the nursery places, now it is 3 years 3 months for the child to get in. I think that is too late. But are we targeting the right people? Because if anyone was in this House and remembers Senator Shenton's amendment, he wanted to look at who could afford and who was in need. Maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, we gave it across the board. Now, we gave it to people who could afford to pay and straight from there they went to very expensive paying schools from nursery. Now, were they taking the places of the children who really needed it? We have struggled with this. I really struggle to vote against Deputy Southern , but on the premise first we do no harm to our children is what we should be doing, with the extra health visitors we took on we are working with families we know, and we should know them right from early on. I will not go as far as conception, but this is what the 1,001 Days says, early on, before the baby is born, working with these families that we have known for years. This in a different context comes down to money because I do not want any other money diverted from the children, the teenagers, the families that are already known to health visitors, social workers, C.A.M.H.S., who have left our care, who we have let down for many years. So what we have a dilemma with is improving those services - because we have already let those children down, we have done it for many years - and frontloading because nobody in this House disagrees that the earlier .. excellent presentation from Senator Cameron. I had already seen that with the Deputy of St. Peter and Deputy Bryans when we were taken to Northampton with Brighter Futures. I do not think anyone can disagree. Their saying is not 1,001 Days; the presentation we saw was 2 is too late because if you do not bond, you do not stimulate the child. It is amazing to see a well cared for child and what they can pick up in those first few weeks, months and then years, that first 2 years. The science again was shown in

Senator Cameron's presentation. The size of the brain of a child that is stimulated to a child who is ignored or basically pushed from pillar to post in size is physical damage, basically. So I absolutely have real, real sympathy and feel Deputy Southern 's frustration, but I want to know that we are targeting. I want to see the M.T.F.P. (Medium-Term Financial Plan). I want to see where we are targeting the money. I tried to have it statutory and I know we do a good job for our care leavers, but it is still 18 and it is only due to some very committed staff who have got to know these children over years that it does carry on and there is a budget, but it is not statutory. So I am looking, making sure you are not cutting here, because we have helped them through. The children are not children anymore. They are 19, 20, 21. Again, we cut off. We need to look at the whole. My focus is we are focusing too much on the 1,001 Days, which is excellent but, as I said, we have already done the damage to some children, or damage has been done, not by us, maybe over different years. People have to go to work. We have just heard from the Minister for Social Security, who brought in family values a year ago. We are 30 years behind the U.K. in loads of these things, so how much damage have we done to our families, our children, in those years? But they are still here and we still need to budget and deal with them. So I really do not know. I will listen. I do not know if anyone else is going to speak. Very disappointing that the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture is not here because I would have liked to have heard some facts and figures on part 2, expand capacity. Is there absolute demand because I have asked questions before and some people say: "No, there is capacity." It might not be in the actual nursery that the mother wants. It might not be convenient but there is capacity. I need to know this. But the Minister for Education is not here. In fact there are not a lot of Ministers here, but that is their priority. Just a shot across the bow, and I totally agree with Deputy Doublet , Deputy Southern has always been ignored. He does look at things, he does his research and he just does not seem to get a fair hearing. I do not even know, was he called in, was he asked, was he given facts and figures. When he brought his amendment yesterday, it was reject, reject, reject. We have all said we like bits of it. I like bits of this. I need more information. The Council of Ministers do not answer me these in the comments about the capacity for .. the Minister for Education is coming back. I am sorry, and I hope he can answer my question, because this 20 to 30 weeks from 3 years and 3 months, that is when they are accepted, because I know I have a close relative on the year they were born could not access it until they were 4. Again it is little things like this that the task force should be looking at. Look forward to seeing more of what they are doing. But I will listen to a few more speakers. I am torn because I need to know that we are not taking away money from one part of our society that needs our help because of things we have not done over the years or have not done as good as we could, and have not accepted the .. maybe not known. Maybe not known that we need to get in much earlier. Who knew this 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago? But we are behind. So we are sending mums back to work very early. We have no paternity leave at all. Dad's get no look in. So there are lots and lots and lots. I hope we do have a good debate on this because I am worried. At the moment I am not sure so I need a bit more of hopefully some statistics and I will await to hear and see whether I can support. But I think it may be the Medium-Term Financial Plan to see where this money is coming from and where it is going from before I can support something

that I need much more information on. Thank you.

9. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement :

I had not intended speaking on this particular amendment but I think it is quite important that we put things into context of what exactly we are debating here today. We are debating a Strategic Plan. That Strategic Plan is a vision for the future.

[10:45]

A vision that has been presented to us by the Council of Ministers but on which we have a say to what it contains and what it intends to achieve. But to achieve any vision requires investment. It then becomes a question of where do we want to spend money. What areas do we feel are important to the people of the Island? A lot has been spoken about economic development and how important that is. How we should stimulate business. But really what we are talking about here is a vision for the future. I think we do need to start making commitments to the public in where we are going to spend, which after all is their money. What we do not need is expensive report after report after report and nothing gets done. I fully agree with the comments the Council of Ministers are saying, that yes, we do need to look at this holistically. We do need to look at this as an overall area. But I think what we need to show the public of the Island, now today, is real commitment. Real commitment to the 1,001 Days objectives rather than talking about it, rather than employing somebody to write a report on it perhaps what we need to do is to lay down a number of areas that we believe are important. I think that is what this amendment provides for. It is not saying to the exclusion of everything else. It is not saying we cannot spend money on other areas that become apparent. What it is saying is that this Assembly believes there are a certain number of priorities and it is naming a number of them. I feel that if we do not support this amendment then we are delaying any investment in the future of this Island through its children. That is what we are talking about here. We need to have a much longer view of the world than just the next 3 years. If we can achieve that today, and perhaps only that today, then I think we have shown that we have a commitment to the public and the future of the Island. I would strongly urge Members to support it for that reason. Thank you.

10. Senator I.J. Gorst :

I take heart from the debate that we are having on this particular issue today. These areas, I personally can find them quite difficult, and I think that perhaps for some of us we have to look beyond the personal experience of the issues that we are considering. Because we are not only talking about vulnerable families and vulnerable children in our community, and they are extremely important and I want to come back to them, but we are also talking about the way we organise ourselves as a community. The priority that we put to some of the fundamental issues that give hope for the future, and a number of speakers have spoken about attachment and bonding and the importance ultimately, although we are not verbalising it in this way, the importance of family. When I use that word I do not use it in the traditional way. Family now can mean and encompass, for me, a myriad of relationships. But that attachment, that way we respect and build families in our community, for me it is absolutely fundamentally important about having a better future than we have had in the past. It goes beyond the cost of services right to the core, I believe, of what it means to think of our children and our grandchildren and what it means to give them a future. I take heart from Deputy Southern wanting today to give some actions to that priority that the Council of Ministers have set in the Strategic Plan. I understand the areas that he has focused on, and he is asking us today to say that 26 weeks is absolutely the right number of weeks for maternity leave. The truth is, I believe, that we are going to need to consider, as the task force will do, and come forward with action plans; and I just want to pick up on that point as well, because a task force is about action, not about writing more reports. We have had lots of reports in the past and Ministers are committed. The reason we have set up a task force is not that they write more reports. But it is exactly that. That they come forward with actions that we will need to deliver on. I have some questions about the action that we will need to deliver on with regard to maternity leave because I do not think it is simply maternity leave. I think it is also paternity leave. I think it is also adoption leave. It is about trying to deal with some of those and putting in place the very best framework that we can to make sure that families are strong for the future. The Deputy also says

that the answer is in his amendment by using the Social Security Fund and using contributions. That may be the answer but there is no, rightly, because it is an amendment to the Strategic Plan, but none of us know what the effect on the Social Security Fund will be, as the Minister has just said to us. None of us know what the effect on the contribution rate will be and none of us know what the effect on businesses will be to allowing that leave. The reason I raise those points is because they should rightly be part of any consultation for change. They should be rightly made clear and transparent that that is what it is going to cost but if we are going to choose that these are the reasons why we think it is very important, and the financial cost is far outweighed by the benefit to our community. We then come on to the second point, expanding the capacity for free nursery places, and I think Deputy Martin made some very pertinent points about that. Is it the right approach to allocate funds in that manner so that they are free for all? We need to consider whether that money can be used in better interventions because those Members that have had the opportunity to read, and if they have not I ask them to do so and to consider the UBS report that was undertaken by a professor from Scotland. The review in the media seemed to completely miss the point. But one of the things that they rightly raised and Ministers sat with that professor, and Ministers and officers were completely open about where we thought the problems were, so that that could be dealt with. One of the points raised was that we do not have the data and the data to help us make informed interventions. That, while it might seem an administrative piece of work, is absolutely crucial to make sure that the interventions that we then deliver are going to be delivering in the way that we want, that are going to be measurable, and that we are going to be able to see that the outcomes are working. Because one thing that we are not good at with government policy and governments around the world are not good at, you start a programme and just let it carry on. You do not measure the outcomes to see if it is delivering the policy priority that one wished for. We have to step away from that, particularly in this area. As some of the Members have said, there has already been an increase in the number of health visitors, but the challenge is: are they in the right area? Are they delivering in the right way? This Strategic Plan has caused a lot of consternation in the media. First of all people started out saying it was pie in the sky, it was just a woolly document. Then today we have heard, and no doubt we will hear it again, that it is just business as usual and it is just carrying on doing things that we cannot avoid. Then we discuss the resource implication and everybody cried: "Oh dear, we have got a black hole." The truth of the matter is that there are many areas in health, in social provision, and in there we talk about children's services, we need to get right to the heart of delivering on the 1,001 Days agenda and the other work that the task force will be doing, working with vulnerable families so that they are kept out of interaction with the .. largely the police and the - I am trying to think of a word to describe those sorts of interventions - interventions of last resort where issues and problems have arisen to interventions of first support, so that we never get down to that line. That is going to cost money.

The Minister for Health and Social Services and the former Minister for Health and Social Services and the Senator sitting in front of me now knows that we need to spend more money on health and social services. We need to spend more money on children's services. We need to spend money on mental health services. We need to ensure that we are spending the right amount of money on those with disabilities. Some people will find that difficult. They say: "Well, how on earth can you be proposing to spend more money in these areas when you are putting back and reprioritising some of your existing services?" We are doing it because we believe it is the right thing to do. We see the issues that this debate is touching upon and many, many other issues as well, and many other interventions that we need to be providing in our health and social services system. There will be, even when we have invested the extra £47 million in health and social services, there will still have to be choices, there will still have to be compromises. I suppose what Ministers are saying with regard to Deputy Southern 's amendment  is that: does this Assembly know today whether this is the right choice and this is the right compromise when weighed against all those other issues, Members in this Assembly will be contacted day-in, day-out, week-in, week-out, about some of the services that we provide in these areas. We are going to need to make some hard choices, and we are going to need to spend more money. That will of course come in the M.T.F.P. I agree with Deputy Brée, this is not about a 3-year plan. This is about improving our services for the next generation.

[11:00]

We are going to have to balance out, putting money in early intervention to prevent problems in the medium and longer term, with the need for improvement in current services. The M.T.F.P. is going to help us to be able to do that. Of course, my comments have focused mostly on health and social services, but those services are delivered hand in hand with the Education, Sport and Culture Department and we know that we are going to need to spend money in the Education, Sport and Culture Department as well, to help them. Sometimes education is - I will not use the term "left holding the baby" - but the problems have not been dealt with prior to them coming into the education system, and so we have got individuals going into that system whereby there should have been much earlier intervention and support and teachers, and the Education, Sport and Culture Department are not equipped to deal with such intense and often difficult problems. So we have to work together across the spectrum. There are some reasons why people come into politics, and I look in front of me and I know that Senator Cameron stood because she wants us to start to make improvements and changes around the interventions and the services that we provide. She is right to have wanted to do that. But I believe there are many Members right across this Assembly this morning who have come into politics to deal with these issues. To make sure we are having appropriate early intervention and we are stopping problems before they develop. You can never do that completely so you will always need the later provision of services and it is the only reason that Ministers are saying we cannot accept this amendment as it stands today because of that weighing up between where are we going to put those resources. Are we absolutely certain that that is the right thing to do and it is costed today or are there other areas that we think interventions will be better provided in? It is only through the work of the task force, together with the further work that we know UBS are going to do as well, together with looking at other academic studies around the world and experience, that we are going to be able to come forward with a package of actions that we are going to have to ask for funding for in the M.T.F.P. It is sort of with a heavy heart that I ask Members to do that, to wait for that action plan to be delivered. But I do, and I do it simply because I believe that that will be the best for delivering the outcomes that we want into the future. Sometimes that is difficult. But I do ask that Members do. That they engage with the task

force and that they support their work and that they engage with their experience that they see day- in and day-out from their constituency work about issues that do need to be addressed. Thank you.