States Meeting Transcript - 6th June 2017

STATES OF JERSEY OFFICIAL REPORT TUESDAY, 6th JUNE 2017

COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER ......................................8

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor..................................8 The Deputy Bailiff :............................................................................8
2. London terrorist attack – minute's silence...............................................8

The Deputy Bailiff :............................................................................8

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS..........................8

2. Nomination of Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier as a member of the Privileges and Procedures Committee who is either a Minister or Assistant Minister............8

2.1 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee) ..........................................................................................8

QUESTIONS......................................................................................8

3. Written Questions........................................................................8

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING AN UPDATE ON INFORMATION PRESENTED IN HOUSING STRATEGY: CONSULTATION DOCUMENT – OCTOBER 2015' (R.116/2015): [1(308)]..................................................................................9
2. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE IMPACT OF PUBLIC SECTOR PAY POLICIES AND CLAIMS: [1(309)]................................................................................13
3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE PROSPECT OF ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR RECIPIENTS OF INCOME SUPPORT WHO CANNOT FIND EMPLOYMENT: [1(310)]................................................................................17
4. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE DUTIES AND ROLES OF THE LAW OFFICERS IN RELATION TO MINISTERS, MEMBERS AND THE ASSEMBLY AND PORENTIAL CONFLICTS BETWEEN ANY OF THESE GROUPS: [1(311)].......................17
5. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE DECISION TO WITHDRAW FUTURE HOSPITAL FUNDING STRATEGY' (P.130/2016), AS AMENDED: [1(313)]................................................18

6. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE APPLICATION OF COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DECISIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS: [1(314)]..................................................19
7. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING PROGRESS IN THE PROVISION OF NEW HEADQUARTERS FOR THE JERSEY SEA CADETS: [1(315)] .....................20
8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING MEASURES UNDER CONSIDERATION IN LIGHT OF THE CONTINUING ABSENCE OF A RESOLUTION TO THE DISPUTE BETWEEN CARE STAFF AND THE MANAGEMENT OF FAMILY NURSING AND HOME CARE: [1(316)]..............................................21
9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING STATISTICS IN RESPECT OF THE NUMBER OF CARE WORKERS ARRIVING IN THE SILANDS SINCE 2012: [1(317)]................................21
10. DEPUTY R. LABEY OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING CONSULTATIONS, REVIEWS AND STUDIES UNDERTAKEN SINCE 1997 IN RESPECT OF FORT REGENT: [1(318)].............................22

4. Oral Questions...........................................................................23

1. Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier of the Chief Minister regarding the decision to reappoint Senator P.F.C. Ozouf as Assistant Chief Minister: [1(324)]................23

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................23

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................23
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................24

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:.....................................................24
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................24
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................24
6. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade:.......................................................25
7. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................25
8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................25
9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier:.......................................................26
10. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................26

2. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the timeline followed for introducing short-term borrowing as an option for funding the Future Hospital: [1(334)] ..................................................27

Connétable J.M. Refault of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):.............................................................................27

1. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................27
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................27
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................28
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................28
5. Deputy M.R Higgins: ..................................................................28
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................28
7. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................29
8. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John:........................................................29
9. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................29
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................29
11. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................30
12. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................30

13. The Connétable of St. John : .........................................................30

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Chief Minister regarding changes which had been made to the structure or workings of the Economics Unit: [1(330)]..........................30

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................30

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................30
2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................31
3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................31
4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:........................................................32
5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................32
6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................32
7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................32

4. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the publication of his response to Tertiary education: Student Finance' (S.R.2/2017) and the work of the ministerial sub-committee tasked with finding a solution to the problems of financing students: [1(332)] .............................................................33

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................33

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................33
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................33
3. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................34
4. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................34
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................34

7. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:.......................................................34
8. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................35
9. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :................................................................35

5. Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the disposal of properties by the States of Jersey Development Company: [1(307)]..35

The Connétable of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):...35

1. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................36
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................36
3. The Deputy of Grouville :...............................................................36

6. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Chief Minister regarding the policy in respect of pay offers to the public sector workforce: [1(329)]..........................................36

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................37

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................37
2. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................37
3. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................37
4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................38
5. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................38

7. Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding whether South Hill and St. Saviour 's Hospital had been subsumed into the portfolio of the States of Jersey Development Company: [1(320)] ..................................38

The Connétable of St. Peter (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):...38

1. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................38
2. Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville :...............................................39
3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................39

4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................39
5. Deputy S.M. Brée of St. Clement:......................................................40
6. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................40

8. Deputy R.J. Renouf of St. Ouen of the Minister for Social Security regarding whether the proposed increase in the adult component of Income Support would alleviate the financial hardship of persons unable to work through illness or disability: [1(322)]..40

Deputy S.J. Pinel of St. Clement (The Minister for Social Security):..........................40

1. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................41
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................41
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................41
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................42
5. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................42
6. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................42
7. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................43

9. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding the Minister's assessment of the appropriateness of the use of zero-hours contracts and of payment only for contact time for care workers employed by providers on the Approved Provider Framework: [1(331)] ...................................................................43 Senator A.K.F. Green (The Minister for Health and Social Services):........................43

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................43
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................43
3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................44

London terrorist attack – minute's silence....................................................44

4. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................44
5. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................44
6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................45
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................45
8. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................45

10. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of the Chief Minister regarding the Chief Minister's support of the decision to withdraw Future Hospital Funding Strategy' (P.130/2016), as amended: [1(328)]....................................................................46

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................46

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ...........................................................46
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................46
3. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................47
4. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................47
5. The Deputy of St. John:..............................................................47
6. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................48
7. Deputy M.R.Higgins:...............................................................48
8. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................48
9. Deputy J.A. Martin: .................................................................49
10. The Deputy of Grouville :.........................................................49
11. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:........................................................49

11. Deputy M. Tadier of the Minister for Social Security regarding the implications for the Minister's department of a U.K. employment ruling on 28th October 2016 on the employment status of Uber drivers; [1(335)] ...........................................50

Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................50

1. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................50
2. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................50
3. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :.................................................................51
4. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................51

12. Deputy R. Labey of the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture regarding the decision not to go it alone with the proposed Jersey-Guernsey passenger-only ferry link: [1(321)]......................................................51

Senator L.J. Farnham (The Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture):

.........................................................................................51

1. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................52
2. Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................52
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................52
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:..............................................................53
5. Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade:.................................................54
6. Deputy R. Labey :....................................................................54

13. Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Social Security regarding the extent to which the proposals in the Draft Income Support (Amendment No. 16) (Jersey) Regulations' (P.45/2017) addressed the recommendation in paragraph 20 of the Scrutiny report Living on Low Income' (S.R.4/2016) relating to the benefit trap': [1(336)]...................................................................................54

Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................54

1. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................54
2. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................54

14. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding whether any changes were under consideration to the Island's drugs policy following the publication of Cannabis: the Evidence for medical Use' (known as the Barnes Report'): [1(333)] ........................................................................55

Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter (The Minister for Home Affairs):............................55

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :.............................................................55
2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................55
3. Deputy J.M. Maçon:.................................................................55

5. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Housing....................56

1. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:..............................................................56 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity (The Minister for Housing):....................................56
2. Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:..................................................56

5.2.1 Deputy P.D. McLinton: ................................................................56

3. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................57

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................57
2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................57

4. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................57

5.4.1 Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................58

5. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................58

5.5.1 Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................58

6. Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................59

5.6.1 Deputy J.A. Hilton:.....................................................................59

6. Questions to Ministers without notice - The Minister for Social Security.............59

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................59 Deputy S.J. Pinel (The Minister for Social Security):.........................................59

1. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................60
   2. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................60

6.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................60

3. The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................60

6.3.1 The Deputy of St. Ouen:................................................................60

4. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................61

6.4.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:..................................................................61

5. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................61

6.5.1 The Deputy of St. John:................................................................61

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................62

6.6.1 Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................62

7. Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................62

6.7.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:....................................................................62

8. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................62

6.8.1 Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................63

9. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................63
10. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................63

6.10.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis : .................................................................63

7. Urgent Oral Question....................................................................64

7.1 Deputy R. Labey of the Chief Minister regarding the timescale of events for the publication of the report of the Independent Jersey Care Inquiry:....................64

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):......................................................64

1. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................64
2. Deputy M.R.Higgins:..................................................................65
3. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................65
4. Deputy M. Tadier :......................................................................66
5. Deputy R. Labey : ......................................................................66

PUBLIC BUSINESS.............................................................................67

8. Draft E.U. Legislation (Information Accompanying Transfers of Funds) (Jersey) Regulations 201- (P.31/2017)............................................................67

1. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (Assistant Chief Minister - rapporteur):..........................67

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................69
2. The Deputy of St. John:................................................................69
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................69

2. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................71

1. Deputy G.P. Southern :..................................................................72
2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................72
3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................72

3. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :..................................................................73

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED..................................................74 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT................................................................74

9. Draft States of Jersey (Amendment No. 9) Law 201- (P.18/2017)......................74

1. The Connétable of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):....74

2. The Connétable of St. Clement:........................................................75

3. Draft States of Jersey (Amendment No. 9) Law 201- (P.18/2017) – second amendment (P.18/2017 Amd.(2)) .....................................................................75

1. Deputy A.D. Lewis :....................................................................76
2. Senator L.J. Farnham :..................................................................80
3. Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:...........................................80
4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:.................................................................82
5. Deputy S.M. Brée:......................................................................83
6. Deputy J.A. Martin:....................................................................83
7. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :....................................................................84
8. Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin : ........................................................87
9. The Connétable of St. John:............................................................87
10. Deputy M. Tadier :...................................................................87
11. Deputy P.D. McLinton:..............................................................91
12. Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade : ..................................................93
13. The Connétable of St. Helier:........................................................94
14. Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary : .....................................................96
15. Deputy G.P. Southern : ..............................................................96
16. Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : ...............................................................97
17. Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour:.................................101
18. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: ..........................................................102
19. Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary:...............................................107
20. Deputy A.D. Lewis : ................................................................110

ADJOURNMENT..............................................................................113

[9:30]

The Roll was called and the Acting Dean led the Assembly in Prayer. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Can we lift the défaut on Senator Farnham please?

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier :

And Deputy Tadier .

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence :

And Deputy Doublet .

The Deputy Bailiff :

Very well, the défaut is lifted on Deputy Doublet , Deputy Tadier and Senator Farnham . COMMUNICATIONS BY THE PRESIDING OFFICER

1. Welcome to His Excellency The Lieutenant Governor

The Deputy Bailiff :

The first order of business is of course that I would ask Members to welcome His Excellency, who is in the Assembly today.  [Approbation]

2. London terrorist attack – minute's silence

The Deputy Bailiff :

I would also like to invite Members to stand for a minute's silence at 11.00 a.m. this morning in recognition of those who lost their lives during the recent atrocities in London.

APPOINTMENT OF MINISTERS, COMMITTEES AND PANELS

2. Nomination of Deputy S.M.Wickenden of St. Helier as a member of the Privileges and Procedures Committee who is either a Minister or Assistant Minister

The Deputy Bailiff :

We now move to F, and in accordance with Standing Order 122(5) the chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee, after consultation with the Chief Minister, wishes to propose Deputy Wickenden of St. Helier as a member of the committee in the category of a person who is either a Minister or Assistant Minister.

2.1 Connétable L. Norman of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee)

As Members know, 2 members of the P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) have to be a Minister or Assistant Minister. As Members will recall there is a vacancy for such a member and having consulted with the Chief Minister I am delighted to propose Deputy Wickenden as a member of the committee.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Is the nomination seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Then I declare that Deputy Wickenden is now a member of the Privileges and Procedures Committee. [Approbation]

QUESTIONS

3. Written Questions

1. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING REGARDING AN UPDATE ON INFORMATION PRESENTED IN HOUSING STRATEGY: CONSULTATION DOCUMENT – OCTOBER 2015' (R.116/2015): [1(308)]

Question

Given the Guiding Principles for housing strategy outlined in Housing Strategy: Consultation Document – October 2015' (R.116/2015), will the Minister –

1. update Figures 5 and 6 of that report and provide the number of housing completions by type for the years 2013 onward;
2. indicate how many, and what proportion of, the 1,000 new home completions given as a target for Andium Homes in Annual Report 2015' (R.78/2016) will be affordable' rental homes;
3. advise what work, if any, she has done to establish how many ofthe over 600 households shown in Figure 4 of R.116/2015 as being in  urgent need of housing are realistically candidates for anything other than affordable rental housing with assistance from Income Support;
4. advise what the average rent on new tenancies is for affordable Andium rental properties for 1 and 2-bedroom flats and 3-bedroom houses as a proportion of household income, along with the mortgage payments required for affordable purchase homes as a proportion of income; and
5. provide updated figures for thehouseandrental price index to 2015/16, as shown in Figure 7 of R.116/2015, alongside the rise in R.P.I. and average earnings, for the period 2002 to date?

Answer

1. The number of housing completions by type for the years 2013 onward are shown below:

Figure  1:  

Housing completions by type

Figure 2: Percentage of completions by type

2. Andium Homes is planning to build 1,063 new homes by 2020. Of this figure, 863 homes will be built on identified sites, including 758affordable rented homes and 105 affordable homes for first time buyer purchase. The remainder ofthe200 homes will be built on new sites  that  are  currently  considered  commercially  sensitive,  but  will  deliver  a  mix  of affordable rent and purchase.

Andium Homes has already delivered 227 new homes since incorporation, all of which have been for affordable rent.

3. Figure 4 of R.116/2015 shows the Affordable Housing Gatewaywaiting list from January2014 to  August  2015,  including  the total number  of applications  and  the  number  of households recorded in the highest level of housing need (bands 1 to 3 and 6).These bands relate only to affordable rented housing and are accessible to households whose housing needs are not met by the private rented sector.

Affordable housing also includes affordable homes for purchase by households who cannot afford to do so at an affordable level without some form of assistance. Households who wish to purchase an affordable home are registered in Band 5 of the Affordable Housing Gateway waiting list. 767 applicants are currently registered in Band 5.

There is clearly a significant demand from first-time buyers to purchase their own home, which  is  demonstrated  by the 600 individuals,  couples  and  families  who  attended  the Andium Homebuy event over two days in April 2017. Andium Homes will sell more than 300 affordable homes over the next five years through the Andium Homebuy scheme.

4. The average rent on new tenancies for affordable Andium rental properties for 1 and 2- bedroom flats and 3-bedroom houses are £193.59, £248.05 and £330.14 per week respectively. A full listof rents charged is available on the Andium website[1]:

http://www.andiumhomes.je/yourhome/Pages/PayingYourRent.aspx

Only 29% of Andium Homes tenants have moved on to the 90% market equivalent rents policy. Overall, average rent levels are currently at 77% of the market. Information regarding the proportion of household income that is utilised in relation to rent is not available as the circumstances will vary between households.

Income Support recognises the full weekly rent of any social housing property, providing that the property size is appropriate to the needs of the household. In this way, low income households are protected from increases when they move on to the 90% policy through Income Support.

Applicants purchasing through the Andium Homebuy Scheme are typically borrowing between 4 ½ and 5 times their income, although it is for the lenders to use their normal calculations in terms of affordability.

It is not possible to identify the mortgage payments required for affordable purchase homes as a proportion of income, again, as the circumstances will vary between households. However, in the last five years, the House Price Index shows that property prices have kept pace with earnings – the Jersey House Price Index has increased by 9% and average earnings have increased by 11%, demonstrating that the affordability of buying a home has not worsened.

5. Figures for theHouse Price IndexandPrivateRental Index shown alongside figures for the Retail Price Index (RPI) and average earnings for the period 2002 to date are provided below. A Private Rental Index has been produced since Quarter 3 2015, following a pauseofthree years where the Population Office no longer recorded this data.

2. DEPUTY  G.P.  SOUTHERN  OF  ST.  HELIER  OF THE  CHIEF  MINISTER REGARDING THE IMPACT OF PUBLIC SECTOR PAY POLICIES AND CLAIMS: [1(309)]

Question

Will the Chief Minister –

1. summarise  for  members  in tabular  form the net impact  in percentage terms of wage- restraint policies and inflation onpublicsector pay, broken down by paygroup, over the period 2009 to 2016;
2. advise what his proposals are for public sector pay claims over the 4-year period 2017to2020 and which groups are to be involved in the proposed single spine' for pay and conditions over this period; and
3. detail what savings in public sector costs, if any, aretargeted from these proposed changes to working conditions, broken down by paygroup?

Answer

1. Appendix attached.
2. The SEB has been involved in detailed redesign of its reward and terms and conditions structure since 2013 working closely with its recognised Trade Unions. It has been in active negotiations since the start of 2016, which culminated in a joint approach from SEB and Trade unions for further investment to COM in January 2017, which was approved. Further negotiations have continued since then to date. Given these negotiations are live it is inappropriate to comment further.

The pay groups in scope are Civil Servants, Nursing and Midwifery, and Unite Manual workers and affiliates.

Police, fire and prison officers, teachers and head teachers are not in scope and are subject to the normal collective bargaining. It is planned that these groups will undertake modernisation discussions /negotiations in the period.

All negotiations are taking place within the MTFP2 cash limits as set by the Assembly

3. There are no savings targets expected from the redesign of the reward structure and terms/conditions. The redesign will promote fairness across pay groups, reduce bureaucracy and create a modern, flexible workforce. The budget for staffing remains as agreed in the MTFP2.

Differe Differe Differe nce  to

Manua JERSEY  nce  to  nce  to  nce  to  Civil  Jsy

l

Year RPI  %  Fire Jsy  Police Jsy  Prison Jsy  Servan RPI for

Worke change RPI for  RPI for  RPI for  ts Civil

rs

Fire Police Prison Servan

ts

2009 2.1% 0.0% -2.1% 0.0% -2.1% 0.0% -2.1% 0.0% -2.1% 0.0% 2010 2.1% 2.0% -0.1% 2.0% -0.1% 2.0% -0.1% 2.0% -0.1% 2.0% 2011 5.4% 2.0% -3.4% 2.0% -3.4% 2.0% -3.4% 2.0% -3.4% 2.0% 2012 2.8% 0.0% -2.8% 0.0% -2.8% 0.0% -2.8% 0.0% -2.8% 0.0% 2013 1.2% 1.0% -0.2% 1.0% -0.2% 1.0% -0.2% 1.0% -0.2% 1.0% 2014 1.9% 4.0% 2.1% 4.0% 2.1% 4.0% 2.1% 4.0% 2.1% 4.0% 2015 0.1% 0.0% -0.1% 0.0% -0.1% 0.0% -0.1% 0.0% -0.1% 0.0% 2016 2.0% 0.0%* -2.0% 1.0% -1.0% 1.0% -1.0% 1.0% -1.0% 1.0%

Cumula

tive %

increase

from  18.9% 9.3% -8.4% 10.4% -7.5% 10.4% -7.5% 10.4% -7.5% 10.4% 2009 to

2016

*2016 Fire Pay Award is subject to Arbitration. A 1% award was offered by the Employer.

3. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY REGARDING THE PROSPECT OF ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR RECIPIENTS OF INCOME SUPPORT WHO CANNOT FIND EMPLOYMENT: [1(310)]

Question

Will the Minister state what measures, if any, she has under consideration to provide additional support to those recipients of Income Support who cannot find employment, in light of the cessation of the disregard for Long Term Incapacity Allowance benefits and the erosion of the value of Income Support produced by the rise in R.P.I. of 16.4% since 2009?

Answer

P.45/2017, published last week, gives details of proposed increases in all Income Support components. Subject to States approval these will rise by 2.9% in October, in line with the current headline RPI figure. These increases will be applied to every Income Support component including: adult, child, household, personal care, mobility and clinical cost. In addition rental components in the private sector will increase by 2.9% with social sector rental components rising automatically in line with social rental values. At the same time, all income incentives within Income Support will be increased from 23% to 25%. These measures create a comprehensive package that will be of benefit to every Income Support household.

Increased support has been provided to LTIA claimants on Income Support over the last two years as the Back to Work teams have extended the range of services available and tailored support for those with long term health conditions is now available. This extra support is helping to reduce the number of claimants who are unable to find employment. Overall, the number of Income Support households that are wholly dependent on Income Support payments has decreased steadily over the last five years.

The Disability Strategy published last week sets out a wide range of measures and is supported by businesses and third sector organisations as well as government departments, all of whom are committed to working together to improve job opportunities for people with a disability or long term health condition.

As Members will be aware, the Department will commence work on extending the Discrimination law to cover disability later this year, with the intention of introducing regulations in 2018.

4. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF H.M. ATTORNEY GENERAL REGARDING THE DUTIES AND ROLES OF THE LAW OFFICERS IN RELATION TO MINISTERS, MEMBERS AND THE ASSEMBLY AND PORENTIAL CONFLICTS BETWEEN ANY OF THESE GROUPS: [1(311)]

Question

Will H.M. Attorney General explain to members in detail the role and duties of both himself and H.M. Solicitor General with respect to Ministers, members and the Assembly and explain how each Law Officer would operate in the event of a conflict arising between any of the three?

Will he also explain the legal basis for their duties and powers in respect of Ministers, members and the Assembly and where any documents setting out this legal basis can be examined?

Answer

Since the passing of the Loi (1930) Constituant la Départment des Officiers de la Couronne, the offices of Attorney General and Solicitor General have, in respect of giving advice to the States, evolved into what they are today. The 1930 Law has now been replaced by the Departments of the Judiciary and the Legislature (Jersey) Law 1965.

As was recognised by the Carswell Report in December 2010, the "core function" of the Law Officers is, in modern times, to give advice to the States. This extends to Ministers, Scrutiny Panels, and individual members of the Assembly and is referred to in the Members' Handbook which says:

"Any member may request a Law Officer to give legal advice on any matter currently before the States."

The question of possible conflicts was considered in the answer to sub-paragraph (d) of the response to a question from the Deputy on 30 January 2017.

In that answer it was explained that the Law Officers' Department is structured so as to manage any conflicts of interest. The Attorney General and Solicitor General are independent Law Officers; the Criminal and Civil Divisions of the Department are managed and operated quite separately from each other and both are segregated from one another by an electronic case management system, which enables files to be locked electronically with only certain lawyers and staff having access to such files.

Accordingly, in the event of there being a conflict between the parties seeking advice, whether it be a Minister or a member who is not a Minister, then a separate Law Officer can give advice and, if for any reason that is not possible, then a senior lawyer in the Civil Division may provide advice to the member in question. In very unusual circumstances, it may be necessary for the Law Officers' Department to instruct a lawyer in private practice to give such advice. Generally it is preferable for all parties to be advised by the Law Officers' Department where possible in order to ensure general consistency of advice (particularly where such advice may ultimately be repeated before the Assembly) and to ensure that public expenditure is kept to a minimum. In accordance with well- established principles neither the fact that a member has sought advice nor the content of that advice will be revealed by a Law Officer to another member of the Assembly without the consent of the member seeking advice and the consent of the Law Officer who has given that advice.

5. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE DECISION TO WITHDRAW FUTURE HOSPITAL FUNDING STRATEGY' (P.130/2016), AS AMENDED: [1(313)]

Question

Will the Chief Minister state –

1. whether an informal meeting of Ministers and others took place on 19th May 2017 to discuss the funding ofthe new General Hospital and, if so, the names of those who were present, as well as the names ofthose who decided that Future Hospital Funding Strategy' (P.130/2016),as amended, should be withdrawn, thereby delaying the hospital funding debate, and if not, why not;

2. whether a formal decision was taken by the Council of Ministers to ratify the decision to withdraw P.130/2016 and, if so, when it was taken and in what form it was taken (i.e. physical meeting, conference call or email exchange); and
3. if a formal decision was not taken by the Council of Ministers, when and how Ministers were notified of the decision that P.130/2016 would be withdrawn?

Answer

The Minister for Treasury and Resources called a meeting on Friday 19th May to discuss the funding of the hospital. The meeting was attended by Treasury officials, members of the Treasury Advisory Panel, a private individual with relevant expertise, advisors from the UK, the Health and Social Services Minister and myself.

On Monday 22nd May Ministers attending their weekly, informal ministerial meeting discussed the possible withdrawal of the hospital funding proposal.

A formal decision was not taken by the Council of Ministers as the proposition had been lodged by the Minister for Treasury and Resources and it therefore had to be his decision to withdraw it.

The Minister for Treasury and Resources notified States Members by email on 22nd May and by statement to the States Assembly on 23rd May.

6. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING THE APPLICATION OF COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DECISIONS OF THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS: [1(314)]

Question

Further to Code of Conduct and Practice for Ministers and Assistant Ministers' (R.11/2015), and in particular the reference in paragraph 4 that Ministers should "maintain a united position when decisions have been reached", will the Chief Minister explain whether this means that Ministers are only bound by collective responsibility following decisions made by all members of the Council of Ministers at a formal meeting after informed and inclusive debate; or whether it means Ministers may be bound by the decisions of one or a smaller number of Ministers where there has been no consultation or they have no prior knowledge of the decisions that have been taken, and are informed afterwards; or can collective responsibility apply in both instances?

Answer

Ministers are corporation sole, responsible for discharging of their legal functions, and within this, as stated in the Code of Conduct and Practice for Ministers and Assistant Ministers (R.11/2015), "Ministers should uphold the principle of collective responsibility, save where it is explicitly set aside by the Chief Minister."

Further guidance on the usual operation of the principle of collective responsibility can be found in the Cabinet Manual published in 2011 by Her Majesty's Government: "The Cabinet system of government is based on the principle of collective responsibility. All government ministers are bound by the collective decisions of Cabinet, save where it is explicitly set aside, and carry joint responsibility for all the Government's policies and decisions. In practice, this means that a decision of Cabinet or one of its committees is binding on all members of the Government, regardless of whether they were present when the decision was taken or their personal views."

The principle of collective responsibility is being reviewed and proposals are expected to be lodged later this year, as explained at a recent quarterly scrutiny hearing and as widely reported in the media.

7. DEPUTY M.R. HIGGINS OF ST. HELIER THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES REGARDING PROGRESS IN THE PROVISION OF NEW HEADQUARTERS FOR THE JERSEY SEA CADETS: [1(315)]

Question

Will the Minister update members on what progress, if any, there has been to provide the Jersey Sea Cadets with a new headquarters and explain, if such decisions have been taken, where it is to be located and whether it will be a standalone or shared facility?

Will he also explain what sums have been expended to date on this matter, and to whom, and what the latest cost estimate is for this venture?

Answer

Ports of Jersey, now an incorporated body, is assisting in project managing the Jersey Sea Cadets headquarters project and providing the land required for the proposed facility.

The Council of Ministers pledged a contribution of £1.2 million towards the relocation of the Sea Cadets as long as the full cost of the project is funded. The Minister understands from Ports of Jersey that the cost of the project is likely to exceed £1.2 million, so additional fund raising will be required. If, through external fundraising efforts, the burden on government funding is able to be reduced, then that would be welcome. At this point no additional States or Ports of Jersey funding is available.

The Minister is further informed by Ports of Jersey that, following on from the previous work conducted, Ports of Jersey established a working party including the Sea Cadets, Jersey Rowing Club and other stakeholders to discuss and develop all aspects of the project. The working party has developed what is considered to be a good solution, and is currently fine tuning the plans. Subject to reaching conclusion on the options available it is anticipated that a planning application will be made during 2017.

The Minister is informed by the Minister for Infrastructure that expenditure on previous projects directly by the States (Jersey Property Holdings) remains as stated in his response to Deputy Hilton on 20th January 2015 (link to Hansard):

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/AssemblyQuestions/2015/2015.01.20%20Dep%20Hilton%20to %20Min%20TR%20re%20grant%20%20to%20Sea%20cadets%20for%20construction%20of%20p remises.pdf

8. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES REGARDING MEASURES UNDER CONSIDERATION IN LIGHT OF THE CONTINUING ABSENCE OF A RESOLUTION TO THE DISPUTE BETWEEN CARE STAFF AND THE MANAGEMENT OF FAMILY NURSING AND HOME CARE: [1(316)]

Question

Further to his answer to oral question 1(300) on 23rd May 2017, will the Minister detail for members what measures, if any, he now has under consideration in light of the continuing absence of a resolution to the dispute between care staff and the management of Family Nursing and Home Care (FN&HC), given his duty of care to ensure quality care in the home, in terms of continuity of service, to FN&HC clients; and, if no measures are under consideration, will he explain why not?

Answer

As previously stated, clients who receive funding from HSSD or the Long-Term Care Scheme can choose to have their home care provided by one of the 23 Approved Providers. My Department assures the quality of care provided by each of these organisations.

The Department has a policy in place, which has been successfully implemented previously in similar situations where care has needed to transition to alternative providers. Accordingly, my Department is continuing to work closely with FNHC to ensure that there is a safe level of service for clients. FNHC is identifying any clients who may wish to transfer care providers and will support those clients who need to transition to an alternative Approved Provider to ensure continuity of care.

Regarding FNHC home care staff, FNHC continues to work with the unions to seek to resolve outstanding issues. FNHC is transferring staff members who wish to continue to work for the organisation and is supporting staff who have chosen to leave.

9. DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER OF THE CHIEF MINISTER REGARDING STATISTICS IN RESPECT OF THE NUMBER OF CARE WORKERS ARRIVING IN THE SILANDS SINCE 2012: [1(317)]

Question

What figures, if any, does the Minister have from the quarterly number of licences registered under Control of Housing and Work legislation, or from the labour market reports, on the number of care workers arriving in the Island since 2012 in the sectors entitled in those reports education, health and other services' and miscellaneous business activities'?

Answer

People applying for licences under the Control of Housing and Work Law are not required to declare what kind of work they are seeking.

When businesses provide information for the labour market survey on how many people they employ, they are not required to provide job titles. So while a care home might employ 40 people, they are not asked how many are care workers and how many are receptionists, chefs, gardeners or maintenance staff.

The Chief Statistician advises that the Statistics Unit could, if required, analyse labour market data to estimate changes in the numbers of non-qualified workers in specific industries. The Deputy is invited to discuss this with the Chief Statistician.

10. DEPUTY R. LABEY OF ST. HELIER OF THE MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE REGARDING CONSULTATIONS, REVIEWS AND STUDIES UNDERTAKEN SINCE 1997 IN RESPECT OF FORT REGENT: [1(318)]

Question

Will the Minister provide a list, in reverse chronological order (commencing with the most recent) of all consultations, desktop studies, design advice and drawing submissions, together with any internal and external reviews that have been conducted, in relation to the development and maintenance of Fort Regent since 1977?

Will the Minister provide the relevant dates and costs of each project, with the costs adjusted for inflation to reflect current values; and will he indicate within the list the name of the relevant Committee President or Minister in office at the time of preparation of the pertinent documents?

Answer

In the time available it has not been possible to provide a complete list of the documents requested by the Deputy nor has it been possible to provide the detail requested for each item.

The list below reflects a period over which a number of Departments and Ministers/Committee Presidents have been involved with Fort Regent. The various Departments will have retention schedules for documentation which may mean that the information required is no longer retained by those Departments. Those reports may have been procured by Departments other than that which had operational responsibility for the Fort and, as such, reference to ..relevant Committee President or Minister in office at the time..' is not germane.

The question is unclear as to whether the Deputy is referring to the reports generated or the cost of work resulting from these reports. If this were a question asked under Freedom of Information legislation we would require further clarification, however, we have not been able to obtain this from the Deputy .

I would, therefore, invite the Deputy to meet with myself and relevant officers to see if we can clarify the information he seeks and provide him with a focussed and targeted response that meets his requirements and limits the need to use valuable officer resource.

4. Oral Questions

1. Deputy  J.A. Martin  of  St. Helier  of  the  Chief  Minister  regarding  the decision  to reappoint Senator P.F.C. Ozouf as Assistant Chief Minister: [1(324)]

When did the Chief Minister make the decision to re-appoint Senator Ozouf as one of his Assistant Ministers, did he consult the Council of Ministers before doing so and, if so, was there unanimous support for the decision?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

A successful financial services sector is essential if Jersey is to maintain a strong economy. We need the best person for the job at this critical time; significant work is needed in the financial services and digital sectors over the coming years. That is why I reappointed Senator Ozouf . I discussed this issue with Ministers on the morning of Thursday, 25th May, and signed a Ministerial Decision  appointing  Senator   Ozouf  as  Assistant  Chief  Minister  late  on  Friday.   Appointing Assistant Ministers is for the Minister to decide and therefore did not require a vote.

1. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Supplementary please. The Chief Minister has given us a lot of background but not answered the question. No, the Minister is shaking his head. He may have not had to get unanimous support. My question was: did he get unanimous support? It is quite simple: yes or no?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

As I said, the appointment of Assistant Minister is for the Minister and therefore there was no need for a vote. Ministers held various views, all of them recognised and said that it was my decision. Certainly one, perhaps 2, said that they would not have made that decision. All of them recognised that it was a difficult decision considering what some in this Assembly and in the public might think, but also recognised that Senator Ozouf had particular skills that importantly we needed to harness in these areas at this particular time.

2. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

But did the Chief Minister get unanimous support, as was quoted by his Deputy Chief Minister? Senator I.J. Gorst :

I was out of the Island at the point that the Deputy Chief Minister gave that interview. I have had it referred back to me about what he said. He and I interpreted - he being the optimist - all Ministers saying that it was a decision for the Chief Minister as not objecting. I was being optimistic but trying to understand nuances and the diplomacy of what .. the diplomatic approach that some Ministers might take the view that I had just outlined to the Assembly. That while they said it was a decision for me there were some who were indicating it would not be a decision that they would make.

[9:45]

3. Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier :

Will the Chief Minister confirm he wanted Senator Ozouf appointed as a Minister but his other Ministers disagreed and therefore he used his power to appoint an Assistant Minister?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Right from the start of this Government I said that I wanted to appoint a Minister for Financial Services, Digital Competition and Innovation. Because of a number of factors that did not take place, and I proposed that Senator Ozouf remained as an Assistant Minister. If I am honest - and this is what seems to be upsetting people - Jersey is best served by a Minister for Financial Services and Digital, but there are a number of people in this Assembly who have said to me they would not support that position. As difficult as I find that situation, I have to accept and understand that Members of this Assembly at this point are not prepared to allow the creation of such a ministry but I am in no doubt that Jersey would be best served by the creation of such a Minister.

4. Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Supplementary. The Chief Minister did not answer the question. The question was: did his other Ministers say they did not want to see Senator Ozouf in the Council of Ministers as a Minister and therefore you had to appoint him as Assistant Chief Minister?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

They said that they felt that Members of this Assembly, and therefore they would find it difficult to support it, would not support the creation of a ministerial position. That was, as I understood that conversation, removed from whether then Senator Ozouf would be appointed to it. That would be a second order decision for this Assembly, but it was along the lines of they felt that generally this Assembly would not support the creation of a ministry at this time.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Here we are again. Is it not the case that the Chief Minister must take some responsibility for this debacle in that it took him over 13 months to execute his wishes to appoint the Assistant Minister to his department in the first place?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy knows because Deputy Martin asked the question at the last States sitting that Senator Ozouf was the first Assistant Minister of the Chief Minister's Department to be appointed, and not as he suggests.

6. Deputy M. Tadier of St. Brelade :

The Chief Minister knows that it is possible to create a new Minister with a mandate from this Assembly without creating an entirely new ministry because we already have that in the Minister for Housing. Is it not the case that the real reason that he does not want to create a Minister specifically for this portfolio is not because he does not think the Assembly would support it, because he has not asked the Assembly - and I suspect the Assembly may well support it - but it is because the Assembly would not choose his preferred candidate to fill that role. Is that not the real reason that he will not create a Minister for FinTech?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

If the Deputy is asking me to bring forward the legislation and he wants an in principle decision to do it, then let him lodge it. I would support that. However, I think you are a scholar of history, Sir, I recall the same Deputy that has just asked me that question suggesting that when the former Chief Minister created the Assistant Minister for External Relations it should have been a ministerial position. This Assembly should have had the right to vote on it. When I came to office, one of the first things I did was create the Minister for External Relations in a ministry and the Deputy that has just asked this question then said: "Sir, there is no need to create a ministry. The assistant ministry is working perfectly well." Let us not reinvent history. The Chief Minister has the ability to appoint Assistant Ministers; that is what I have done. I have outlined my reasons for doing so. If Members wish me to bring forward legislation to create a ministry and a Minister for Financial Services and Digital I am perfectly willing to do so, because I think Jersey is best served by that.

7. Deputy M. Tadier :

Supplementary. I may well do that, and I would prefer it if it was the Chief Minister who brought that forward himself seeing as he believes in it, but I guess we do not always act on what we believe in this Assembly necessarily. May I ask the question then about confidence in the Minister and his Assistant Minister? He said that there were one or 2 in his Council of Ministers who did not agree with the decision. Now, was it one or was it 2? There is a margin of error of 50 per cent there, or 100 per cent, depending which way you look at it. Who were those 2?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It may come as a surprise to the Deputy but very few decisions around the Council of Ministers' table, when we reach a decision, are unanimous. We have a robust debate. There are all sorts of issues which are at interplay about why a particular Minister may or may not support a particular proposal. But I return to the comments that the Deputy Chief Minister made in my absence, that all Ministers round that table said they recognised it was a difficult decision but it was a decision for the Chief Minister to make.

The Deputy Bailiff :

There is already a fair amount of time that has been afforded to this, the first question. So I have Deputy Le Fondré, Deputy Mézec and then a final supplementary.

8. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I am glad the Chief Minister made the last point because it brings us back to, I think, the purpose of the question. Senator Green, on the radio, was very, very clear. He categorically stated it was quite clear there was 100 per cent support for bringing Senator Ozouf back as an Assistant Minister. From the public's point of view that is the information they have been given. Is that factually correct or not? If it is not should that statement be retracted?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think I answered that question when I said I did not hear the interview. I was out of the Island. Senator Green interpreted Ministers saying that it was a decision for the Chief Minister as support. I interpreted some of their nuanced positions and conversations differently, that if they were me .. it was me making the decision but if they were me they would have made a different decision.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

So that is not then?

9. Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

My understanding when Senator Ozouf was last Assistant Chief Minister his areas of responsibility were - and please correct me if I am wrong - finance, digital, innovation and competition. Can the Chief Minister confirm whether or not this time round with Senator Ozouf as Assistant Chief Minister he has responsibility for those 4 specific areas and if not, why not?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy will know from the Ministerial Decision and from the press release reappointing Senator Ozouf is to financial services and digital because they are the 2 critical elements for our economy and they are the 2 areas which I think are best aligned to Senator Ozouf 's skills and where this Island needs Senator Ozouf 's skills in those particular areas. There is an ongoing anti-trust issue with regard to competition and I think that that needs to find its way through the system before I consider again where competition would sit, and likewise with innovation. There are some details around the monitoring of the current loans and working up how we are going to support innovation into the future before that can move again from where they both currently sit, which is with Senator Routier.

10. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I would like to push the Chief Minister on given that the controversial way that Senator Ozouf stepped aside many months ago, is the Chief Minister still saying and telling this Assembly that Senator Ozouf is the only one who can do financial services and digital; the only one he would have in the job and there is no one else in this Assembly who could do the job?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I have been doing the job for the last 4 months, it seems like a year, because there is so much travelling, there is so much speaking, there is so much meeting of senior executives from international financial services brands. Other Members of this Assembly perhaps over time could get to the position that Senator Ozouf is in relation to carrying out this function but the challenges that we face as an Island today mean that Senator Ozouf is up to speed, Senator Ozouf has got the relationships, and he is the one best suited to build on that base and to take Jersey forward in these particular areas. On Thursday, or on Friday, we will probably have a new Government in the United Kingdom. It is critically important that from a financial and business services perspective that relationship is started and built upon from day one. We face the non-co-operative listing of jurisdictions in Europe all about financial services. It is critically important that someone - that someone has to be today Senator Ozouf - takes on that role and continues to work with it. We have got a strategic refresh, which is looking at financial services into the future. It is looking at the changes in banking, it is looking at the transformation of effective digital; those 2 things sit together. Over time others could do this role but I want the best person in the job for today to start working today and that person, in my view, for the best interests of Jersey and her citizens is Senator Ozouf .

2. Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the timeline followed for introducing short-term borrowing as an option for funding the Future Hospital: [1(334)]

Will the Minister explain what timeline was followed for introducing short-term borrowing into the equation as an option for funding the future hospital?

Connétable  J.M.  Refault of St.  Peter (Assistant Minister  for  Treasury  and  Resources -

rapporteur):

As a member of the Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel and having received copies of reports from our professional advisers EY (Ernst & Young), the Constable of St. John will be aware that many external debt options were considered and analysed in some detail in the report of our professional advisers, which was dated July 2016. The analysis included financing from banks as an option, which is usually available at a shorter term than we are seeking. While such borrowing has the advantage of more flexibility for drawdown banks may well require financial covenants and interest is often of a floating nature, hence not providing certainty of costs. Very recently it has been suggested that other options of short-term borrowing or similar could be an option to be used over the longer term by, for example, a programme of rolling such borrowing over. The Treasury Advisory Panel is currently examining such an option and will continue to consider credible options as and when they are brought forward.

1. The Connétable of St. John :

The Assistant Minister said "very recent". Could he please give us a timeline because that is the question I asked and that is what I am particularly interested in? What does he call "very recent" and can I have more information on that?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Certainly. I am aware of 2 approaches made during the month of May from 2 different financial experts that are well experienced in the debt markets who had offered their advice via some Members as well to the Minister for Treasury and Resources. I think the Constable of St. John is talking more focusedly about the meeting of 19th May which is, I think .. I would appreciate if he could confirm if that is what he wishes me to address? [Aside] Thank you. On the meeting of 19th May an individual of tremendous experience in the debt market offered some options for the Minister to consider. The Minister managed to invite him in on 19th May for a meeting to discuss the options, which is entirely appropriate that we, as a Treasury, should consider before making a final judgment. I think the next question will be about who was at the meeting, so I will give that answer to the Constable of St. John now.

The Deputy Bailiff :

You are running perilously up to the time limit for your answer.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I will wait for his next question then.

2. Deputy G.P. Southern :

I will do the favour, I think. Was another Minister present at that meeting and if so, which ones? The Connétable of St. Peter :

I can confirm that the Minister for Treasury and Resources was there - he called the meeting - the Treasurer of the States was also present, the Chief Minister, the Deputy Chief Minister and Minister for Health and Social Services, a member of the Treasury Advisory Panel and the third party giving the breadth of their experience.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

As Members know, I have got over 40 years working in the finance industry and I have taken soundings about short-term borrowing. The general feeling was no, no, no. So where and when and who did this particular piece of advice emanate from?

[10:00]

The Connétable of St. Peter :

It is the role of Treasury to listen to all advice, and that is merely what we are doing. If somebody with a great breadth of experience in the debt market, many years of very valuable experience, it would be wrong for us to ignore that experience.

4. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Supplementary. But who gave the advice? I am sorry, the feeling in the industry is not short-term borrowing, so who said: "Why not?"

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I am afraid I cannot give the person's name. He was not engaged by the Government. He is not contracted at all to the Government. They came in out of the kindness of their heart to offer their breadth of experience to us.

5. Deputy M.R Higgins:

It gets worse and worse. In the written answer to my question, question 5, it mentions it was a private individual so the Assistant Minister is going on about professional firms and so on, it was a private individual who gave this information surely the States should know who has given it. What is the name of the individual?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I believe Standing Orders would prevent me from identifying a private individual within the Chamber.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I think that is right.

6. Deputy J.A. Martin:

I would like to ask the Assistant Minister, I really must push him on this private individual. I do not need to know the name but the Minister just told us that this individual came in out of the goodness of their heart, not paid anything, and what retention, what reliability then, would you put on somebody who just wants to come in, have a nice discussion about the biggest debt that this Island is going to have, and we then, the next day, decided we are not going .. is the Minister telling us, on this one individual's advice, who is not retained by the Government, then we decided not to have the biggest debate on the biggest amount of money that this Island is ever going to have? Is that what the Minister is telling this Assembly?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Certainly, the person coming into Treasury did do so out of the kindness of his heart. He has a breadth of experience, as would anyone else at the top of their career in the debt markets would do. He is not representing his company. He has significant experience in the debt market and he has offered an alternative that it is right for us to consider. Because we need to consider that, the decision was led that the debate should not have gone forward at the last sitting and therefore to give time for the Treasury Advisory Panel to fully analyse the advice that they are being given.

7. Deputy J.A. Martin:

Does the Minister say .. then why are Treasury still retaining Ernst & Young and not employing this absolute expert at the top of their game given their absolute free advice to the Minister? What is going on?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I can confirm that Ernst & Young are reviewing that person's comments. The Deputy Bailiff :

As again we have spent quite a long time on this question I therefore have the Deputy of St. John, Deputy Tadier and then a final supplementary from the Connétable of St. John .

8. Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

I am really concerned over what I am hearing from the Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources because this calls into question the integrity of the decision making within the system. Considering the proposition was lodged in November and we were almost forced to make a decision in January and are now told that somebody who clearly has experience, but why the Assistant Minister or the Minister has not contracted that person to give proper open transparent advice to the Government because eventually the decision will have to come to the States. Why this person was not spoken to earlier because the EY report has been in the domain for a while now?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I fully understand the Deputy of St. John's comments there. It is a difficult one. This person came forward rather late in the piece. They work most of their time off-Island albeit they are resident in Jersey. That is solely the reason why it has come to the party rather late. But as I have said several times already this morning, it would not be wise of us not to take the advice of somebody widely experienced in the international debt market.

9. The Deputy of St. John :

Supplementary. Can I just ask the Assistant Minister to clarify then for me? It was raised as a concern with regards to the bond market in terms of the rates back in January, can I ask: if the advice that comes out is that we are just going to stick with the bond, what is the potential risk or the potential cost then to the States?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I am afraid I cannot give a direct answer to the final part of the question, but certainly there will be a risk there. The market is constantly moving. Fortunately at the moment it is relatively static and I believe is slightly better in our favour but that could change in a moment.

10. Deputy M. Tadier :

I am wondering why if this information was known at the last sitting, when we were given less than 24 hours' notice, much less than 24 hours' notice, about possibly the biggest spending plan that this Assembly will ever be asked to approve, and the Assistant Minister and the Minister's knew it was because, as the members of the public see it, somebody in the Assembly says: "I have got a mate who knows a mate, he reckons he has got a better idea than all of you Ministers and Ernst & Young and Scrutiny, is it possible we can have a 10-minute chat to see if his idea is better than the rest?" Why is it that we were not told about this, if this Government espouses the principles of honesty, openness and accountability? Was it not germane to the Assembly's decision at the time?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I can understand Deputy Tadier 's rather colourful comments and I think most people would probably think with him. But the fact remains it was appropriate for the Treasury Advisory Panel to explore, along with Ernst & Young, the information they were being given first. I cannot speak for the Minister on why he did not give that to the Chamber when he made his statement on 24th May.

11. Deputy M. Tadier :

What is so special, and I do not know the individual so it is not a question of denigrating him or putting him under question, but what is so special about one individual for him to be able to come forward, or her, and to get the ear of the Minister for Treasury and Resources to grind everything to a halt, when we have got our mechanisms in terms of Scrutiny, they were being resisted time and time again by the Council of Ministers? Will he not simply tell us who this individual is, what his expertise are and who it was that suggested we grind everything to a halt for this person's benefit?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Can I repeat what I said earlier on for the final part of Deputy Tadier 's supplementary question? Standing Orders prevent me from naming who this person is other than to say a person of international acknowledged breadth of experience.

12. The Connétable of St. John :

When the decision was made on Monday, 22nd May, can the Assistant Minister tell me who was present in the room? As it was a collective responsibility and a Council of Ministers' decision to bring P.130 in the first place, how many Council of Ministers' members were present and how many agreed to the withdrawal of that proposition?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I apologise to the Constable of St. John, I do not have that information. All I can say, I was not present and I have been given an idea of who was there but I cannot confirm or deny that because the Minister has not been here to be able to verify who was at that meeting.

13. The Connétable of St. John :

Could the Minister for Treasury and Resources when he returns give that in writing to the Assembly?

The Connétable of St. Peter :

I will undertake on behalf of the Minister for Treasury and Resources to do so.

3. Senator S.C. Ferguson of the Chief Minister regarding changes which had been made to the structure or workings of the Economics Unit: [1(330)]

Will the Chief Minister explain whether any changes have been made to the structure or workings of the Economics Unit, or whether any such changes are being considered?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

There has been a temporary change to the working arrangements of the Economics Unit as the Chief Economic Adviser is working remotely from the U.K. (United Kingdom) on a contract basis following his decision to return to the U.K. for family reasons. He fulfils his responsibilities through email, telephone, videoconferencing and attending in person when necessary. This arrangement will remain in place until a replacement is recruited.

1. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Is this not rather sudden? Why is the Economic Adviser working for the States in Scotland? What project is he working on and is there any connection with any of the sort of various things that have been going on with the Council of Ministers?

The Deputy Bailiff :

I am not sure that last phrase in the question is rather too wide with anything "going on". You have to be more specific than that, Senator.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

With the reports that have been issued by the .. no, I think we will leave that one and come back to it.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Are you withdrawing the entire supplementary question? Senator S.C. Ferguson:

No, just the last phrase.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I said in my opening response that the Chief Economic Adviser has moved to the United Kingdom; yes, that happens to be Scotland, that is where he has family, and he has moved there for family reasons and he moved in a timely manner to coincide with the start of the summer term. So he has been there since the Easter holidays; I think that is correct. But he is working on contract. That does not add extra cost to the States, while we now undertake a recruitment for a replacement.

Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Supplementary.

The Deputy Bailiff :

Just a moment, Senator. If there are no other questions then you have your final supplementary.

2. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Family reasons always seems to cover a whole multitude of sins but can include family reasons. Given that it seems to have taken place at Easter why has there not been any announcement, bearing in mind it is the Island's Chief Economic Adviser?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Because he is still employed and he is still providing economic advice; just remotely because of family reasons.

3. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I am sorry, the Chief Minister has just said he is retiring or ending his position at some point and normally on these things, there is normally a notification publicly that says: "The Chief Economic Adviser has declared his retirement" or resignation or whatever and there is a timeframe and that he will be leaving on such and such a point. There are measures in place for recruitment and all that type of thing. We have heard nothing. The first thing I heard about this was from this question.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Chief Economic Adviser is still employed by the States, still doing work. If the Deputy felt that we should have made public the change from Jersey to Scotland then I can only apologise for that.

4. Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier :

Is there not a Deputy Chief Economic Adviser? I am just really surprised to hear this news this morning that the Economic Adviser has moved to Scotland and is working there. With the best will in the world I cannot see how that is going to continue to be of benefit to States Members and the Island as a whole. So how long is he going to be employed while he is resident in Scotland?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The start of the search for a replacement has already started. There is another economist in the Economics Unit who was promoted earlier this year to senior economist and is doing excellent work. The Chief Economic Adviser is still available via telephone, videoconferencing and, from time to time, in person. It does not interfere with any of his work at all in this regard. Economists, most of their work is research, is writing reports and is giving written advice. That can be done remotely and because of the shortness of the notice that the Economic Adviser wished to give in order to move his family, as I have said for schooling purposes, it was felt best to continue his employment for a period of time while we could undertake a recruitment process.

5. Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Has the Chief Minister any idea how long that period of time will be? Senator I.J. Gorst :

It is my understanding - we are in the second quarter now - that date comes to an end during the third quarter.

6. Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The Chief Minister referred to a shortness of notice. The reason I am puzzled is that I always understood in senior positions that you could not give short notice on these type of things for the very reason we wanted to make sure we had a good handover period and things like that. What has happened there? Is this a change in policy or something they have overlooked?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Absolutely not. Somebody continuing their employment from elsewhere allows exactly that. Would it not be unreasonable as an employer for somebody who wants to .. they have made their decision that they want to go for purposes of schooling.

[10:15]

I would have expected the Deputy to be understanding about an individual's family circumstances and the need to find places in schools at the start of term rather than mid-term, so we were being a reasonable employer.; the Chief Economic Adviser continues his excellent work remotely, and that is what he is doing while we now seek to recruit a replacement.

7. Senator S.C. Ferguson:

Previous Economic Advisers found they needed frequent contact with businesses in Jersey. We have all seen Mr. Powell running round town so that he can visit people. If our current Economic Adviser moved at Easter when did recruitment start and why is it not well underway now? We should be interviewing by now.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

It is underway; I do not have the detailed timeline in front of me. Perhaps I can give the Senator some reassurance that that previous Economic Adviser is still running around town speaking to businesses on behalf of Government and helping with policy formation as well.

4. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the publication of his response to Tertiary education: Student Finance' (S.R.2/2017) and the work of the ministerial sub-committee tasked with finding a solution to the problems of financing students: [1(332)]

In the absence of a published response to the Scrutiny Panel's report, S.R.2/2017, will the Chief Minister advise the Assembly what the terms of reference will be for the ministerial subcommittee tasked with finding a solution to the problems of financing students and provide an update on any progress made to date?

Senator I.J. Gorst (The Chief Minister):

There had been a delay in responding to the panel's work. This of course is not a reflection of the importance of the work and a response has now been published. The ministerial sub-committee is investigating ways to support more of our young people to go into higher education and to reduce the burden on parents. The terms of reference for that sub-group will be published this week. They include looking at student loans, bursaries, more local degree courses, easier access to European universities and student saving schemes.

1. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Supplementary. How can the Chief Minister expect the Assembly to believe that he does place any kind of importance on the Scrutiny process when he cannot meet established deadlines for responding to Scrutiny reports? Furthermore, regarding the subject of the report, how can he expect Islanders to believe that he places any importance on the young people who are being denied a university education because his Council of Ministers have failed so far to make any kind of progress towards a solution?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I do not think it is fair to say that no progress has been made. I think that the Scrutiny Panel have produced a very good report, which is feeding into that process. I set up the ministerial sub-group in order to take these issues forward and to make progress. One of the findings of the Scrutiny review was that perhaps there had not been sufficient progress made when it was left to individual departments. I think I accepted and acknowledged that during the course of the Scrutiny hearing process. That is why we have set up the sub-group. Chief Officers will be meeting in the next 2 weeks to discuss further costings for various models and therefore progress is being made, but I accept that in an ideal world greater progress would have been made. But now progress is being made.

2. Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The sub-group was established in December, we are now June, can the Chief Minister please tell us how many meetings the sub-group has had since then?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The sub-group determined that it wished to have the benefit of the Scrutiny report. We have met twice during .. Ministers have met twice in that period. Officers, I think, have met more than that. We have now asked officers to go away and, as I have said, cost-up some of the options that builds on some of the recommendations that the Scrutiny Panel asked us to look at. So that is tax breaks, looking at the interaction with Income Support importantly, looking at what is possible with a loan system, looking at if we are going to do that what would be the best way of doing it. Would it be funding, fees and living or part of that? So trying to make those figures balance, looking at the increased investment that we believe we are going to make in that area will take time.

3. The Deputy of St. John :

In a previous answer by the Chief Minister he advised that the terms of reference will be published next week, but in the response to the Scrutiny report it has been advised: "Terms of reference will be published together with a timeline for the work. Target date of action or completion quarter 3

2017." Could he just clarify exactly when the terms of reference will be published for the benefit of the public and States Members to hold them to account?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I confirmed with my officer this  morning prior to coming to the Assembly that it would be published this week.

4. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Chief Minister not consider that the response to this issue has been woefully slow on the part of the Minister for Education and himself in that we are already seeing numbers of our young people going to higher education fall by, I believe, over 10 per cent in the last couple of years? Does he not think it is time for swift action to correct this?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

That is why I set up the ministerial sub-group, to bring the department and Ministers together in order to take action. I think Scrutiny know that some of the proposals on the table are complex and will have implications at various income levels and they have got to be properly costed. That takes some time.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Is the Chief Minister satisfied with the performance of the Minister for Education? Senator I.J. Gorst :

I work with Ministers. The Minister for Education is transforming his department in many areas. We are seeing standards improve. We are seeing extra money put into the Pupil Premium. We are seeing schools given more autonomy. We are seeing a change to the curriculum, so he is doing great work. This is an area that needed extra support and needed the creation of the Council of Ministers' sub-committee in order to move it forward.

6. Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

The ministerial sub-group has existed since December last year and the Scrutiny report's recommendation that its terms of reference should be published has been in the public domain for quite some time now, yet we will not get the terms of reference until later this week apparently. Could the Chief Minister explain why the terms of reference could not have been published much sooner given that this very simple recommendation has been in the public domain for some time and could he also explain with hopefully something close to an exact date of when the terms of reference were finally fully approved?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I think I have outlined that they will be published this week and I confirmed that with officers this morning. I do not have the exact time of when they were approved. I think that was at our first meeting but I do not have the timeline of that first meeting with me.

7. Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier :

I just wondered if the Chief Minister could explain how much attention has been given to the academic calendar with regards to these discussions as parents are now planning for next year and for the academic process they are going through now, exams are happening now, people have selected universities. How can parents of families plan with all this uncertainty? Can he give some indication of a timetable as to when he thinks this panel and others may come up with some kind of solution? This is essential for families to plan their financial future and the future of the education of their children. What timetable can he give to finding a solution?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

The Deputy knows that the Treasury Department, when making changes to tax rates or allowances, does that through the budget process and I think quite clearly that that was the stipulation of the timetable that they were going to be bringing forward, and that they could not work outside of that budget timetable. But that is not the only thing that this review is looking at. That is just one of them, importantly as I have already referred to. It is looking at the interaction with Income Support but it is also looking at access to European universities. It is looking at a broader programme locally at the university college up at Highlands, which is seeing more people attend for better quality degree courses, and that is continuing as well. So it is not just the one-off item. Albeit I absolutely accept that this item is perhaps publicly seen as the most important item, and it is important.

8. Deputy A.D. Lewis :

Can I take from that then the Chief Minister is acknowledging the fact that there is a different timetable here called the "academic calendar" rather than the budget calendar, and he is attempting to do something about that so that we can get to grips with the academic calendar, not necessarily the budget year, which of course is challenging, I understand that.

Senator I.J. Gorst :

Yes, but there is sometimes an expectation that I can override the law as Chief Minister and tell Ministers and departments how they should operate their own law outside of that law. I do not have that ability. What I do, and can do, is work with Ministers to help them understand some of the wider issues and how they need to work in a timely manner, and that is one of those timely manners.

9. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Given that the Chief Minister has committed to swift action in this area, will he provide monthly updates to the Scrutiny Panel on the progress of this sub-committee?

Senator I.J. Gorst :

I can ask officials to undertake that, yes. Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Was that a yes?