States Minutes 21st February 1984

THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 21st  February,  1984  at  10.15 a.m. under  the  Presidency  of  the   Deputy Bailiff ,  Peter  Leslie  Crill,  Esquire, C.B.E.

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All members were present with the exception of –

Senator Bernard Thomas Binnington – out of the Island.

Anthony  John  Perkins,   Deputy  of   St. Clement –  out  of  the Island.

Sir  Martin  Le Quesne,   Deputy  of   St. Saviour –  out  of  the Island.

Edgar John Becquet, Deputy of Trinity – out of the Island. John Philip Farley, Deputy of St. Helier – out of the Island.

John Nicolle Le Fondré, Deputy of St. Lawrence – out of the Island.

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Prayers. _____

Establishment Committee – resignation and appointments.

THE STATES noted the resignation of Deputy Donald George Filleul  of   St. Helier  from  the  Establishment  Committee  and appointed Deputy Philip George Mourant of St. Helier and Deputy John Nicolle Le Fondré of St. Lawrence to the vacancies on that Committee.

Island  Development  Committee –  Statistical  Information  for 1983. R.C.5.

The  Island  Development  Committee  by  Act  dated  3rd February, 1984, presented to the States a Statistical Report for the year 1983.

THE STATES ordered that the said Report be printed and distributed.

63   Price : 50p.

Births, Marriages and Deaths 1983. R.C.6.

The Etat Civil Committee by Act dated 7th February, 1984, presented to the States a Statement of Births, Marriages and Deaths in 1983.

THE STATES ordered that the said Statement be printed and distributed.

Matters lodged.

The following subjects were lodged "au Greffe" –

1. Thrift Clubs: lotteries. P.22/84.

Presented by Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier .

2. Draft Boats and Surf-Riding (Control) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Regulations, 198 . P.23/84.

Presented by the Harbours and Airport Committee. The States decided to take this subject into consideration on 13th March, 1984.

3. Membership of House: not to be prevented by reason of financial hardship. P.24/84.

Presented by Deputy Terence John Le Main of St. Helier .

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association – Annual General Meeting.

Senator Reginald Robert Jeune , Chairman of the Jersey Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, gave notice that the Annual General Meeting of the Branch would take place on 10th April, 1984.

Housing – permits granted to essentially employed persons 1983. Question and answer.

Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asked Deputy Hendricus Adolphus Vandervliet of St. Lawrence , President of the Housing Committee, the following question –

"Will the President inform the States how many permits were granted in 1983 in respect of the lease or purchase of residential property by essentially employed persons and the total number of dependants of such persons?"

The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows –

"The number of consents issued during 1983 in respect of essential employees totalled 264, of these 72 were for the purchase of property and 192 for leases.

The Department does not have any extracted record of the total number of dependants.

I must stress that the figures do not indicate the level of increase in the demand for housing by essential employees. The figures include consents in respect of replacements for other essential employees who have left the Island, and consents for essential employees moving from one property to another. Whilst it has not been possible in the time available, the Department is undertaking a more meaningful analysis of the figures, and I will report the findings to the House in due course."

States Departments – hire cars. Question and answer.

Deputy Maurice Clement Buesnel of St. Helier asked Senator John Clark Averty, President of the Establishment Committee, the following question –

"Will the President inform the States how many cars have had to be hired by States' Departments during the present dispute with the Civil Service Associations about the use of private cars for official purposes and the comparable cost?"

The President of the Establishment Committee replied as follows –

"Perhaps I may begin by setting out the background to the current situation. The Establishment Committee has been concerned about the rate paid as mileage allowance in the public service since 1978, and in 1980 a formal request was made to the Staff Side for re-negotiation of the formula. Since 1980 the formula has not been applied to increase the rate, which has changed only by an increase in 1981 to take account of the increase in the price of petrol; at that time, the rate was raised to its present level of 22.3p per mile. Discussions between the two Sides have not been able to bring about agreement on a new formula, and in a letter dated 16th December, 1983 the Establishment Committee was notified that the Staff Side intended to advise its members not to use their private cars for official journeys from 9th January, 1984.

Many public servants, but by no means all, have acted on the Staff Side's advice, and have refused to use their private cars for official purposes. The Establishment Committee makes no complaint about this: it accepts the principle that it is a matter for individuals to decide whether to use their cars at the rate laid down. Where officers do not wish to use their own cars or do not possess cars, managements makes alternative arrangements, if the journey in question is beyond walking distance and the bus service is not suitable. Although the advance notice of their advice to their members given by the Staff Side was useful and was appreciated, it did not give sufficient time to examine all possible alternative arrangements. In consequence, a number of States departments have hired cars, the highest number for all departments at any one time being 35. The number currently used is 21, partly because of more efficient administration of the use of vehicles and partly because some employees have once again begun to use their own vehicles. A number of departments are now examining the possibility of obtaining vehicles that they need on a leased-hire basis, and in many instances this is proving to be more economical than paying mileage allowances. It is however not possible, from information held at present, to give a full answer on the question of comparative costs. The Establishment Committee has referred the whole question to the Public Works Committee which is actively examining the options available.

The Establishment Committee has examined a wide range of mileage rates used in Jersey, and is satisfied that the present public service rate of 22.3p per mile is above the average. It is produced by putting figures into a formula provided by the A.A., but the rate which results is higher than that paid by the A.A. to its own staff. The Establishment Committee cannot believe that any public servant busy a car specifically for use on official journeys, and that there must therefore be something fundamentally wrong with a formula which fails to discount standing charges such as tax, insurance and depreciation.

Finally, I should tell the House that the Staff Side have proposed that a joint working party meet to discuss the mileage allowance. We are hopeful that, when the Public Works Committee report is available, progress may be made."

Building Costs. Statement.

The President of the Housing Committee made a Statement in the following terms –

"During the past few months several references have been made to building costs. Members will be aware that my Committee is carrying out an investigation into building costs and it is felt appropriate that I should make an interim statement.

Some two years ago, the Committee commissioned an enquiry to establish the comparative costs of building in Jersey, Guernsey and the United Kingdom. A firm of Chartered Quantity Surveyors, with offices in the three locations, was commissioned to undertake the study.

A preliminary investigation revealed that comparisons would be difficult because the identical property for comparison purposes did not exist in the three locations. There are differences in average sizes, standards of construction and the attention paid to the future maintenance costs.

It was decided, therefore, to obtain quotations for the supply of specified quantities of identical materials in the three locations. A comprehensive exercise comparing Jersey with Guernsey revealed that building material costs in Jersey averaged 3% higher than those in Guernsey. A comparison with the United Kingdom and Guernsey, on a selected range of materials, i.e. cement, concrete blocks, hard core, ready mixed concrete and timber revealed average prices 2½% higher in Jersey than in Guernsey and 35% higher in Jersey than in the United Kingdom.

It has proved impossible to establish the comparable competitive labour rates in the three locations. However, the comparable basic rates of pay are 1.2% higher in Jersey than in Guernsey and 8.2% higher in Jersey than in the United Kingdom.

In October last year, the Housing Officer informed the Committee that, in consultation with the Quantity Surveyors, he had come to the conclusion that it was impossible to compare directly building costs between Jersey, Guernsey and the United Kingdom because there were so many imponderables. The Committee accepted his recommendation that it should take more positive action by seeking to reduce building costs in Jersey. The Committee has, therefore, appointed a Working Party and charged it to report on the following matters, all of which influence the cost of building dwellings –

1. The sizes of dwellings.
2. A cost effective standard of specification, having due regard to future maintenance costs.
3. The cost of materials together with recommendations on how costs can be reduced.
4. Cost of labour.
5. Professional fees, i.e. the relative costs/benefits of employing States or private architects, etc.
6. Interest charges.
7. Tendering procedures.

The Working Party has already met on several occasions and has identified several areas in which potential savings can be made. Several of these matters are currently the subject of discussions between the Working Party and the principal builders' merchants in the Island and others will be the subject of discussion with local manufacturers and with building contractors.

Particular mention has been made of the comparable cost of States Loan housing in Jersey and Guernsey. It has been established that developments undertaken by the Guernsey Housing Authority are sold at a price which does not include professional fees and interest charges. On a development undertaken by the Housing Committee these two items alone account for over £5,000 of the cost.

The Committee hopes to be in a position to present a comprehensive report to the States on the subject before the end of the current session."

States Rental accommodation: policy.

THE STATES, adopting a Proposition of the Housing Committee, endorsed the Committee's policy not to offer States' rental accommodation for sale to existing tenants.

Members present voted as follows – "Pour" (45)

Senators

Vibert , Le Marquand, Jeune , Averty, Sandeman, de Carteret, Horsfall, Ellis, Baal, Rothwell.

Connétable s

St. Ouen , St. Mary , Grouville , St. Saviour , St. John , Trinity , St. Brelade , St. Lawrence , St. Martin , St. Peter , St. Helier , St. Clement .

Deputies

Mourant(H), St. Ouen , Morel (S), Le Maistre(H), Quenault(B), Le Gallais(S), Roche(S), Le Brocq(H), St. Martin , Filleul(H), Vandervliet(L), St. Peter , Rumboll(H), Buesnel(H), Grouville , St. Mary , Beadle(B), Thorne (B), Wavell(H), Blampied(H), Billot(S), Norman(C), St. John .

"Contre" (2)

Senator

Shenton. Deputy

Le Main(H).

Les Autres Temps, Anne Port, St. Martin .

THE STATES, adopting a Proposition of the Island Development Committee, agreed to permit the development of a staff flat at Les Autres Temps, Anne Port, St. Martin , notwithstanding its location in the Green Zone as shown on Drawing No. 05.148.1.

Artificial Insemination of Domestic Animals (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1984.

THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Artificial Insemination of Domestic Animals (Amendment) (Jersey) Law, 1984.

THE STATES rose at 12.32 p.m.

E.J.M. POTTER, Greffier of the States.