States Minutes 14th November 1989

STATES MINUTES 1 4 th November, 1989 P r ic e : # 1 .5 0

 THE STATES assembled on Tuesday,  14th November, 1989 at 10.15 a.m. under   the Presidency of the Deputy Bailiff ,

V e rnon Amy Tomes, Esquire.

_ ___________

All Members were present with the exception of -

S enator Bernard Thomas Binnington -

o ut of the Island.

S enator Pierre François Horsfall - out

o f the Island.

 L eonard René  Hamel, Connétable  of

S t. Clement - ill.

L eonard Picot, Connétable of Trinity -

o ut of the Island.

 R ichard Winter Le Sauteur, Connétable

o f Grouville - out of the Island.

 S ir Martin Le Quesne, Deputy of St.

S aviour - ill.

 C arlyle John Le Herissier Hinault,

D eputy of St. John - ill.

H enry George Coutanche, Deputy of St. L awrence - out of the Island.

_ _ _ _ _ _______

P r a y e rs  

_ _ _ _ _ _______

Televised broadcasting of the Budget.

The President informed the States

that the following letter had been received by the Bailiff from Channel Television -

  Dear Sir Peter,

C T V BUDGET COVERAGE - 1989 T he presentation by the President of

t he Finance and Economics Committee of t he budget is undoubtedly one of the

m ost important dates in the States'

c alendar requiring from CTV's point of

v iew some degree of forward planning.

T he company now has an outside b roadcast vehicle' which enables

s tudio standard facilities to be taken i nto the field either for live or

r ecorded transmission.

I am currently looking into the

f easibility and practicality of

i ncreasing the amount of broadcast

t ime traditionally devoted to the

b udget and would appreciate your view

o n the possibility of allowing us to

b roadcast the budget speech.

T his is not the first time CTV has

m ade this request, but perhaps you

m ight accept that some precedent has b een established with the recording of t he special sitting of the States on

t he recent occasion of the visit by

H er Majesty The Queen.

M odern equipment is, as you know, l ightweight and unobtrusive and no d irect lighting would be required in t he Chamber although it is possible t wo lights aimed at the ceiling to

i ncrease the general illumination in t he Chamber would be desirable.

Y our reply to this request will help a g reat deal in helping CTV assess how m uch time and resources we devote to t he budget.

I n addition to covering the morning s peech, I am writing to the States' G reffe to enquire about the

p ossibility of using a room in the

S tates' Building as a studio for the d ay.

Y ours sincerely

S gd. Martyn Farley,

N ews Editor.''

The States decided to refer the letter to the House Committee.

Subordinate legislation tabled.

The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -

 1 .  Employment of Children (General P r o visions) (Amendment) (Jersey) O  rd er, 1989. R & O 7987.

 2 .  Pilotage (Dues and Fees)

( A m endment) (Jersey) Order, 1989. R & O 7988.

 3 .  Road Traffic (Public Parking

P l a ces) (Amendment No. 12)

( J er sey) Order, 1989. R & O 7989.

 4 .  Motor Vehicles (Construction and U  se ) (Amendment No. 23) (Jersey) O  rd er, 1989. R & O 7990.

 5 .  Road Traffic (Saint Helier)

( A m endment No. 7) (Jersey) Order, 1 9 8 9. R & O 7991.

 6 .  Income Tax (Small Maintenance P a y ments) (Amendment No. 3)

( J er sey) Order, 1989. R & O 7992.

Committee for Postal Administration: resignation and appointment.

THE STATES noted the resignation

of Deputy Leonard Norman of St. Clement from the Committee for Postal

Administration and appointed Deputy Thomas James Jordan of St. Brelade to serve in his place.

Department of Postal Administration: report for 1988.

The Committee for Postal

Administration by Act dated 25th October, 1989, presented to the States a Report of the Department of Postal Administration for the year 1988.

THE STATES ordered that the said Report be printed and distributed.

Regulation of Undertakings and Development Law: quarterly manpower returns.

The Finance and Economics

Committee by Act dated 16th October, 1989 presented to the States a Report covering

the quarterly manpower returns provided under Article 2A of the Regulation of Undertakings and Development (Jersey) Law, 1973, as amended, for the quarters ending 31st March, 1989 and 30th June, 1989.

THE STATES ordered that the said Report be printed and distributed.

Handbook for Members.

The House Committee by Act dated

24th October, 1989 presented to the States a Report on the preparation of a Members' handbook.

THE STATES ordered that the said Report be printed and distributed.

Matters noted - land transactions.

THE STATES noted Acts of the

Finance and Economics Committee dated 16th October, 1989 and 30th October, 1989, showing that, in pursuance of Standing

Orders relating to certain transactions in

land, the Committee had approved -

 ( a) as recommended by the

I s la nd Development Committee, and i n a ccordance with an Act of the

S tates dated 29th August, 1989,

t h e purchase from the Jersey New

W  a terworks Company Limited of

F i e ld 366 and part of Field 365,

L e Pré de Mal Assis, Grands Vaux,

S t . Saviour/ St. Helier , measuring

7 . 3 3 vergées, shown on Drawing No. 0 1 / 231/1, required for the

c o n struction of Category A'

h o u sing, for a consideration of

# 1 8 7,632, with each side being

r e sp onsible for the payment of its

o w  n legal fees;

 ( b) as recommended by the

I s la nd Development Committee, the p a s sing of a Contrat de

T r a nsaction with Mr. Francis

H  er bert Amy and Mrs. Josianne

Y  v onne Amy, née Gollandeau, the

o w  ners of Villa Rosa, Gorey

V  il lage, Grouville , to enable them

t o -

( i) d emolish the party-owned

g a b l es and walls bordering the p u b l ic footpath;

( ii )  e stablish a new boundary li n e ;

( ii i)  build as proposed, with ri g h ts to establish

o p en i n g s and windows in

th e w a ll and gable

b o rd e r in g the footpath as sh o w  n o n the approved

d ra w  in g s ;

( iv )  h ave rights of access fo r b u i l d ing and

m a i n te n a nce work;

( v ) retain ownership of the

f in i s h ed wall and gable, but

w  it h a n agreement to maintain a n d d e corate them on the

p u b l ic side to the public's

s a ti s fa ction;

w  it h Mr. and Mrs. Amy

b e in g responsible for the payment

o f a ll legal fees involved in the

t ra n saction;

 ( c) as recommended by the

R e s ources Recovery Board, the

p u r chase from Mr. David James Le B o u tillier, Mrs. Maureen Ann

R o n del, née Le Boutillier, Mrs.

A  n na Lucas Cabot, née Le

B o u tillier, Mr. Edward John Le

B o u tillier, Mr. Brian Le

B o u tillier and Mr. Donald Edward

L e Boutillier, of 2,400 square

f e et of land in Field 422, St.

B r e lade, as shown on Drawing No. 4 6 0 /3, and 183 square feet of land i n F ield 398, St. Brelade, as

s h o wn on Drawing No. 460/6A,

r e q uired for the construction of

t w o pumping stations, one air

v a lv e chamber and a washout

c h a mber in connexion with part of t h e foul sewer extension scheme to se r ve the Corbière area, for a

c o n sideration of #2,583, with the B o a rd being responsible for the

p a y ment of all legal fees involved i n t he transactions;

 ( d) as recommended by the Public

H  ea lth Committee, the leasing from M  r . Robert Alton of No. 25, West

P a r k Avenue, St. Helier, a

f o u r-bedroomed property, for a

p e r iod of six months from 1st

O  ct ober, 1989, to 31st March,

1 9 9 0, at a monthly rent of #585,

r e q uired for occupation by nursing s ta f f at the General Hospital;

 ( e) as recommended by the Public

W  o rks Committee, the passing of a C o n trat de Bornement with Mr.

S t e ven Charles Philip Pallot and

M  r s. Dorothy Kilvington Pallot,

n é e Marett, the owners of

S e a bright, Le Mont de Gouray, St. M  a rtin, in order to establish the

b o u ndary between that property and D  ev on Gardens, Gorey, St. Martin;

 ( f) as recommended by the Public

W  o rks Committee, the ceding, free

o f c harge, by the Parish of St.

O  u en of 517 square feet of land

s it u ated at Rue de Vinchelez, St.

O  u en, required for the

c o n struction of a footpath, with

t h e Committee being responsible

f o r the necessary accommodation

w  o rks and the payment of all legal f e es involved in the transaction;

 ( g) as recommended by the Public

W o rks Committee, the purchase from D .M . Satchwell Limited of 297

s q u are feet of land situated at

R u e de Vinchelez, St. Ouen, r e q uired for the construction of a f o o tpath, for a consideration of

# 5 9 4, with the Committee being r e sp onsible for the necessary

a c c ommodation works and the

p a y ment of all legal fees involved i n t he transaction;

 ( h) as recommended by the Harbours a n d Airport Committee, the leasing t o R onez Limited of 6,610 square

f e et of land at La Collette, which

h o u sed four cement silos, for a

p e r iod of nine years, with a

t ri e nnial rent review, commencing 1 s t October, 1989, at an annual

r e n t of #5,288;

( i) as recommended by the Harbours a n d Airport Committee, the leasing t o G .P. Express (CI) Limited of

7 2 0 square feet of warehouse

a c c ommodation in the Freight

T e r minal Building (Letting No.

B . 1 35), for a period of three

y e a rs, with effect from 1st

S e p tember, 1989, at an annual rent

o f # 2,160, with annual rent

r e v iews linked to the Jersey Cost

o f L iving Index;

 ( j) as recommended by the Harbours

a n d Airport Committee, the

g r a nting free of charge  to

C o r beaux Limited of any wayleaves r e q uired to lay a sewer across

F i e lds 24, 25, 26, 27 and 46, St.

P e t er, to connect the property

W  e st View House to the main sewer

o n L'Avenue de La Commune, St.

P e t er, subject to the company also

l a yi ng a second pipe, free of

c h a rge, from L'Avenue de la

C o m mune to Field 46, for the

t e m porary and/or permanent

h e a dquarters of the Air Training

C o r ps, with the company being

r e sp onsible for the payment of all

l e ga l fees involved in the

t ra n saction;

 ( k) as recommended by the

E d u cation Committee, the leasing

f rom Mr. Ronald Stanley Taylor and M r s. Gillian Mary Taylor , née

W  a tson, of No. 19, Regency House,

R e g ent Road, St. Helier, a one-

b e d roomed flat, for a period of

t h re e years with effect from 1st O  ct ober, 1989, at an annual rent

o f # 4,160, with annual increases t ie d to the Jersey Cost of Living I n d ex, required for occupation by a n e ssential employee;

 ( l) as recommended by the

E s t ablishment Committee, the

l e as ing from Wing Commander

R i c hard Henry Brayn Le Brocq and M  r s. Mary Carmen Le Brocq, née

S c r iven, of The Flat, Highfield,

S t . Saviour, a one-bedroomed

f u rn ished and serviced flat, for a

p e r iod of three years with effect

f ro m 30th September, 1989, at a

w  ee kly rent of #108, with the

o p t ion to renew, on the basis of

a n n ual increases from 1st January, 1 9 9 1 tied to the Jersey Cost of

L i v ing Index, required for

o c c upation by an essential

e m p loyee appointed on a three year c o n tract;

 ( m) as recommended by the Housing

C o m mittee, with the support of the

I s la nd Development Committee, the p u r chase from the Parish of St.

C l e ment of approximately 17,000

s q u are feet of land at The Halt',

R u e de la Croix, St. Clement, as

s h o wn on Drawing No. 1189/5, for a c o n sideration of #80,000, with the

C o m mittee being responsible for

t h e payment of all legal fees;

 ( n) as recommended by the

R e s ources Recovery Board, the

p u r chase from Mr. Gordon John

H  er vé of 2,862 square feet of land

i n F ield 1002, St. Mary, shown on

D  ra wing No. 449/08/B, required for t h e construction of a pumping

s ta t ion for Le Rondin foul sewer

e x te nsion, for a consideration of

# 2 , 862, with the Board being

r e sp onsible for the payment of all

l e ga l fees;

 ( o) as recommended by the Public H  ea lth Committee, the leasing to T h e Jersey Electricity Company

L i m ited of an area of land

m  ea suring 18.48 square metres

s it u ated at The Limes, Green

S t re et, St. Helier, required for

a n e lectricity sub-station at The

L i m es Hospital site, for a period

o f 9 9 years at a nominal rent of

# 1 a year, commuted forward to the i n ce ption of the agreement, with

e a c h side being responsible for

i ts o wn legal fees;

 ( p) as recommended by the Public

W  o rks Committee, the cession free

o f c harge from Mr. Patrick

M  c Carthy of 765 square feet of

l a nd forming part of the

p r o perties known as La

M  a isonette'' and La Croix'', Le

R u e des Prés, Grouville , required

f o r the construction of a

f o o tpath, with the Committee being r e sp onsible for the costs of

a ccommodation works and the

p a y ment of all legal fees.

Matters noted - financial transactions.

The States noted Acts of the

Finance and Economics Committee dated 7th August, 16th October and 30th October, 1989, showing that in pursuance of Rule 5

of the Public Finances (General) (Jersey) Rules, 1967, as amended, the Committee had noted that -

 ( a) the Education Committee

h a d accepted the lowest of seven t e nd ers, namely that submitted by J .P . Mauger Limited in the sum of

# 6 4 9,598 for the construction of

N ' Block at Highlands College;

 ( b) the Housing Committee had accepted t h e lowest of six tenders, namely

t h at submitted by Mark Amy Limited i n t he sum of #2,823,696 in a

c o n tract period of 112 weeks for

t h e construction of 35 one-bedroom

a n d seven two-bedroom flats at

J a n e Sandeman Court, Brighton

R o a d, St. Helier ;

( c) the Education Committee had

a c c epted the lowest of six

t e nd ers, namely that submitted by G  . Langlois Limited in the sum of

# 1 3 8,860.49 for the construction

o f t wo staff houses at Les

Q  u ennevais School, St. Brelade .

Matters lodged.

The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -

 1 .  The Budget 1990.

P r e sented by the Finance and E c o nomics Committee.

 2 .  Population growth: future

s tr a tegy. P.145/89.

P r e sented by the Policy and

R e s ources Committee. The States d e c ided to take this subject into

c o n sideration on 5th and 6th

D  ec ember, 1989.

 3 .  Draft  Road  Traffic  (No. 34)

( J er sey) Regulations,  19 :

( P .1 41/89)  amendment.  P.146/89. P r e sented by Deputy D.J. de la

H  ay e of St. Helier. The States

d e c ided to take this subject into

c o n sideration on 12th December,

1 9 8 9.

The following subjects were lodged on 24th October, 1989 -

 1 .  Draft Health Insurance (Medical B e n efit) (Amendment No. 35)

( J er sey) Regulations, 19 .

P . 1 37/89.

P r e sented by the Social Security C o m mittee.

 2 .  17 Trinity Road, St. Helier :

a p p roval of drawings. P.138/89. P r e sented by the Housing

C o m mittee.

 3 .  Draft  Sea  Fisheries  (Size

L im  its)  (Amendment)  (Jersey) R e g ulations,  19 .  P.139/89.

P r e sented by the Agriculture and F i s heries Committee.

THE STATES decided to take the abovementioned items into consideration at the present Sitting.

The following subjects were lodged on 31st October, 1989 -

 1 .  Draft Motor Vehicles

( In t ernational Circulation)

( A m endment No. 10) (Jersey)

R e g ulations, 19  . P.140/89.

P r e sented by the Defence

C o m mittee. The States decided to t a ke this subject into

c o n sideration at the present

S i tt ing.

 2 .  Draft Road Traffic (No. 34)

( J ersey) Regulations, 19 .

P . 1 41/89.

P r e sented by the Defence

C o m mittee. The States decided to t a ke this subject into

c o n sideration on 12th December, 1 9 8 9.

The following subjects were lodged on 7th November, 1989 -

 1 .  Liberation Square, Weighbridge: p l an ning and construction.

P . 1 42/89.

P r e sented by the Occupation and L i b eration Committee. The States d e c ided to take this subject into

c o n sideration on 21st

N  o vember, 1989.

 2 .  Rents of commercial property:

c o n trol. P.143/89.

P r e sented by Senator C. Stein. The S t a tes decided to take this

s u b ject into consideration on 12th D  ec ember, 1989.

 3 .  Draft Advocates (Amendment No. 2) ( J er sey) Law, 19  . P.144/89.

P r e sented by the Legislation

C o m mittee. The States decided to

t a ke this subject into

c o n sideration on 21st November,

1 9 8 9.

Matters lodged au Greffe'' withdrawn.

THE STATES noted that in pursuance of Standing Order 17(6) the following subject had been withdrawn -

P ublic Property: Estates Management D ivision. P.136/88.

L odged: 1st November, 1988.

P ublic Works Committee.

Draft Road Traffic (No. 34)

(Jersey) Regulations, 19 . P.129/89.

THE STATES noted that the

President of the Defence Committee had withdrawn the Draft Road Traffic (No. 34) (Jersey) Regulations, 19  (P.129/89) having lodged revised Regulations on 31st October, 1989 (P.141/89).

Social Security registration cards. P.43/89.

Social Security registration cards: amendment. P.48/89.

THE STATES acceded to the request

of Senator T.J. Le Main that the propositions regarding Social Security registration cards (lodged on 18th April and 25th April, 1989) be considered at the present Sitting.

Draft Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law, 198 . P.136/89.

THE STATES acceded to the request

of the President of the Finance and Economics Committee that the draft Bankruptcy (Désastre) (Jersey) Law, 198 be considered in Third Reading at the present Sitting.

Rezoning of land for Category A housing. P.57/89.

THE STATES acceded to the request

of the President of the Island Development Committee that the Proposition regarding the rezoning of land for Category A housing (lodged on 9th May, 1989 and partially debated on 29th August, 1989) be considered on 21st November, 1989.

States rental accommodation. Questions and answers.

Deputy Shirley Margaret Baudains

of St. Helier asked Deputy Hendricus Adolphus Vandervliet of St. Lawrence, President of the Housing Committee the following question -

  Many States' rental units of

 a ccommodation remain empty for as long  a s ten weeks (even longer in some

 c ases). How does the Housing Committee  a ccount for such long delays in

 r eallocating States rental

 a ccommodation bearing in mind the

 u nsavoury conditions many families on

 t op priority are living in?''

The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -

  Deputy Baudains is, I fear,

 g eneralising from one or two specific  c ases when she refers to delays of up  t o ten weeks, and even longer in some  c ases, between the termination of one  t enancy and the beginning of a new

o ne. The typical delay is no more than

 s ix weeks, and often less.

W here there are exceptional delays, s uch as ten weeks, this is normally

d ue to circumstances beyond the

C ommittee's control, for example

f ollowing a bereavement where

o btaining vacant possession often

b ecomes difficult due to legal

d ifficulties regarding inheritance of

t enants' possessions, and need to give r elatives time to remove personal

e ffects of the deceased.

I n more normal situations, there can

b e anything up to four weeks involved i n the outgoing tenant moving out,

p otential tenants viewing the property a nd the new tenants moving in, having m ade arrangements for service

c onnexions, carpet and curtain

f itting, packing, furniture removal,

e tc.

W hen a unit falls vacant, especially

a fter a long tenancy, the Committee

t akes the opportunity to carry out

r edecoration and modernisation. In the c ase of redecoration, we encourage

y ounger tenants to do this for

t hemselves once they have moved in,

g ranting allowances against rent due

f or the cost of materials used.

H owever, it is not normally possible

to do this where tenants are elderly,

p hysically handicapped or single

m others - and in these cases the

r edecoration is arranged by the

D epartment. Modernisation may involve a new heating system or kitchen, and

a s competitive tenders need to be

o btained, this alone can take several

w eeks.

G iven the above - that is, time taken

b y the outgoing and incoming tenants

t o organise their affairs, problems

w ith potential tenants refusing

o ffers, time spent on redecoration and m odernisation - I do not think members w ill be too surprised that periods of

u p to six weeks often occur between

t enancies. I should add, however, that

t he success of the Committee's own

b uilding programme is increasing the w orkload of my Department. For

e xample, in the last few months, we

h ave completed over one hundred new

o ne-bedroom dwellings in the town

a rea, and as a result have moved very m any tenants from two and three-

b edroom properties which they were

u nder-occupying. Such movement puts g reat pressure on my own staff, that

o f housing maintenance staff at the

D epartment of Public Building and

W orks, and local contractors whose

s ervices are already in great demand

b ecause of the heat in the building

i ndustry at the present time. The

C ommittee's housing stock has

i ncreased significantly in recent

y ears without corresponding increases i n staffing levels of Housing

M aintenance at Public Works or in my

o wn Department. The Committee's

c ontinued ambitious development

p rogramme will continue to place

p ressures on staffing resources

a lready stretched to their limits.

T he States may rest assured, however, t hat we are very conscious of the

p light of those on our waiting lists

a nd we are doing all we can to

m inimise time between tenancies.''

S upplementary questions and answers.

D eputy S.M. Baudains - In the light

o f the fact that according to the

H ousing Committee that six weeks is t he normal amount of time a dwelling i s left vacant, one can assume that

t he sixty dwellings counted on Sunday w ould be occupied by Christmas?''

P resident, Housing Committee - I

c annot answer that question direct,

b ut what I can say is that Deputy

B audains does not help at all when she a dvises tenants not to take up

a dequate property that had been

o ffered to them as she has done in two

s ituations recently. When people are

o ffered adequate accommodation I think i t is terrible that they should be

a dvised by a States' member not to

a ccept it. No member of the Housing

C ommittee would take up that

p osition.''

S enator D.A. Carter - I wanted some

f urther clarification of what the

P resident said. It disturbs me a

l ittle but did I understand him to

i mply because I always thought there

w as an element of choice for people

t aking housing, the traditional I

a lways thought was two bites of the

c herry and then you take what you are

g iven, which again I do not always

n ecessarily agree with and on

o ccasions have been called in to

i ntervene on behalf of a private

p erson. But I understood the President

t o mean something much more serious

t hen which was that he said Deputy

B audains did not help when she advised p eople to say no. Is he now saying

that there is no element of choice

w hatsoever; that someone who comes up w ho is offered a tenancy is not

a llowed to say no to the first place

t hey are offered?''

P resident, Housing Committee - No,

w e do try to be as helpful as

p ossible. In the case of elderly

p eople that have brought up a family

i n a house, they may have lived in

t hat house for 20 or 30 years and they

a re requested to move on to a one-

b edroomed flat; this is a very

e motional and very traumatic situation

f or them and we do our very best to

a ccommodate them, but what we do is

o ffer them as good accommodation as we c an. There is occasionally an element

o f choice allowed, but what I said and

I maintain what I said, it does not

h elp for a States' Member to come

a long and say in front of my

D epartment - do not take that, they

c an get you something better than

t hat'. I think this is not helpful to

s ay the very least, because none of

o ur accommodation is bad.''

D eputy R.W. Blampied - Is it true

t hat a certain person that was being

e victed was advised by Deputy Baudains n ot to take the first two offered? We

w ere under considerable pressure to

f ind a third place.''

P resident, Housing Committee - I

c annot say whether the Deputy was

i nvolved with the first two offers,

t hat I do not know but I know she was i nvolved with one, in that particular

c ase, and another case as well.''

J.M.T. bus services. Questions and answers.

Deputy Shirley Margaret Baudains

of St. Helier asked Senator Richard Joseph Shenton, President of the Defence Committee the following questions -

  We are informed by the Managing  D irector of the J.M.T., Mr. Stewart  H umphrey, that the level of bus

 s ervices cannot be maintained

 i ndefinitely without further

 s ubsidies'.

 1 .  If the bus service were to be cut

b a c k even further, what steps if

a n y would the Defence Committee t a ke to rectify the situation?''

The President of the Defence Committee replied as follows -

  The J.M.T., as a private company,

 a re required by their owners to run at

 a profit. If, as their Managing

 D irector states, they would not

m aintain the level of services

 i ndefinitely without further

 s ubsidies' then the Defence Committee  w ould review that situation as and

 w hen it arose. Subsidies are of course  a matter for this House to discuss and  v ote on. I must point out that

 s ubsidisation could raise many more

 i ssues than exist at present.''

Deputy Baudains  Q uestion 2

  Does the Defence Committee feel that  t he bus services at this time are

 a dequate?''

President, Defence Committee

  In view of the commercial restraints

 u nder which the J.M.T. operates and

 b earing in mind that no bus service is

 e ver 100 per cent of what people

 d esire, then we consider that the

 p resent service operated by the J.M.T.

 i s the optimum which can reasonably be  e xpected under very difficult

 c ircumstances.''

Waterfront Advisory Group. Questions and answers.

Deputy Cynthia Miriam Rumboll of

St. Helier asked the Connétable of St. John, President of the Island Development Committee the following questions -

  On 6th June, 1989 the President of

 t he Island Development Committee told  t his House that the Committee has

 e stablished a Waterfront Advisory

 G roup which is currently preparing a

b rief for consultants - for the

 w aterfront. The brief is being

 p repared for the Island Development

 C ommittee and the States will be asked  t o approve it before it is passed to

 t he consultants'.

I n view of that statement will the

P resident now inform the House when t he report and proposition will be

p resented, and give the reasons for

t he delay?''

The President of the Island Development Committee replied as follows -

  I cannot say exactly when the report

 a nd proposition concerning the

 c onsultants' brief for the St. Helier

 w aterfront development plan will be

 p resented to Members although I

 b elieve it will be in the very near

 f uture. The brief prepared by the

W aterfront Advisory Group was approved i n its entirety by the Island

 D evelopment Committee as long ago as

 7 th September, 1989. However, because

 i t is a wide-ranging document dealing

 w ith major policy issues, it needed to

 b e considered by the Policy and

 R esources Committee.

T hat Committee considered the brief, a nd a covering report and proposition w hich asked the States to approve it,

o n 20th September, 1989, but referred i t back to my Committee by a majority d ecision, saying (and I quote) -

th a t it could not support

t h e proposition as drafted because t o d o so would suggest to the

c onsultants that Members shared

t h e views of the Waterfront

A  d visory Group on the many key i ss u es raised in the planning

b r ie f, for example, whether a

m  ar ina should be sited at Havre

d e s Pas. If individual elements

w  er e not supported the only course

o f a ction would be for the

p r o position to be rejected. The

C o m mittee considered whether this d i ff iculty could be overcome by

s e p arate propositions being tabled

o n the key issues, or by the

p r o position being reworded so that

t h e States simply agreed to note

t h e planning brief. The Committee

d e c ided, however, that it would

s tr o ngly recommend to the Island

D  ev elopment Committee that it

p r e sented the planning brief and

r e p ort of the Waterfront Advisory

G  ro up to the States, in the forms

o f a n in-Committee debate with

t h at debate being focused on

c e rtain highlighted key issues. A

d e b ate in this form would give

M  e mbers of the States the

o p p ortunity of expressing their

v i ew s. Moreover, a tape/transcript

o f t he debate could be given to

t h e consultants who would be

a p p ointed to produce a Development P l a n for the St. Helier waterfront

a r ea , so that they were aware of

t h e views of Members on particular i ss u es.'

I was not present at that meeting of

the Policy and Resources Committee,

a nd Deputy T.A. Le Sueur who is also a m ember of the Island Development

C ommittee dissented from the decision.

M y Committee has thought very

c arefully about how it should proceed w ith this matter in the light of the

v iews of the Policy and Resources

C ommittee. It cannot agree that the

S tates deliberation should be an

i nconclusive in Committee' debate,

n or that a transcript will help the

c onsultants in any way. As anyone in t his House who has ever appointed

c onsultants or advisers will know, it

i s imperative that clear guidance be

g iven on what is required of them. For t his reason, the Committee believes

t hat the brief, or at the very least,

t he main elements of it, has to be

e xplicitly approved by the States.

T he Committee has, however, accepted t he need for the States to consider

t he major issues before it can endorse

t he brief as a whole, and has

a ccordingly redrafted the proposition

a nd covering report to reflect this.

T his amended draft projet was approved b y the Committee as recently as last

T hursday and has been forwarded to the P olicy and Resources Committee for its f urther consideration. As soon as it

h as been cleared by that Committee it w ill be lodged and, I hope, debated as

s oon as possible.''

Q uestion 2

  Will the President confirm that the  r eport prepared by the Waterfront

 Advisory Group will be presented in  i ts entirety?''

President, Island Development Committee   Yes.''

 Q uestion 3

Deputy C.M. Rumboll

  All or part of the document prepared

 b y the Group was reported in the media  a s long ago as 21st September, 1989.

 D oes the President not agree,

 t herefore, that it is time that his

 C ommittee formally published the

 r eport, and made it available to

 S tates' Members?''

President, Island Development Committee

  I should like to point out that the

 r eport in the Jersey Evening Post on

 2 1st September, 1989 was not the

 r esult of a formal release by the

I sland Development Committee or the W aterfront Advisory Group, nor, I am h appy to add, did it arise from an

  informal release' by any individual

m ember of those bodies or the officers w ho advise them.

I do agree with the Deputy that it is

h igh time that the waterfront planning b rief is published, debated and I hope a pproved.''

S upplementary questions and answers. D eputy C.M. Rumboll - I am delighted t hat the President and I do agree on

s ome issues and thank you for your

a nswers. But does the President not

a gree that these delays which are in

p art due to his Committee and in part

d ue to the process of the Policy and

R esources Committee can only act as a d isincentive to any public spirited

p erson who is helping this House

t hrough with its major decisions? And d oes he not further agree that perhaps

t his question should have been more

p roperly asked of the President of the

P olicy and Resources Committee, that

o ne of the admitted roles of the

P olicy and Resources Committee was to s peed up the decision making process

a nd at this time, does he not realise

t hat we shall not in fact be debating

t his until well into next year?''

P resident, Island Development

C ommittee - I fully concur with your c omments and sadly this is going to

b e the case but this is a point that I

t hink Deputy Rumboll raised when we w ere talking about property

m anagement. The situation is that in m y opinion, too much is going to

P olicy and Resources, the control is

b eing thwarted and everything is being g eared down to the ability of certain m embers of Policy and Resources to

g ive the time to be able to give it

a dequate study and in my opinion this i s wrong and perhaps we must look at

o ther ways of managing our affairs.''

S enator B. Brooke - As one listens

t o the promises of the very near

f uture, and as soon as possible, and

f or those of us who are ordinary

m embers of this House, it is really,

a nd I wonder if the President agrees,

t hat it is getting to the stage where

t he percolated or sieved projet comes t o the rest of us in the House in a

w ay that is really not acceptable? How s oon can we get the waterfront

r eport?''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I would answer that by a sking another question - how long is

a piece of string?''

S enator Brooke - That is not a

s atisfactory answer to my question.''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I will bring it to the

H ouse as soon as it is possible. I

w ant to debate it and I think that

D eputy Cynthia Rumboll was quite

r ight, the people who contributed to

t hat report must find it very

f rustrating to have these things left

a nd left, and brought to a debate when e veryone has lost interest by the time i t comes here for debate and I agree

t hat I will bring it to the House as

s oon as possible.''

S enator R.R. Jeune - Would the

P resident of the Island Development

C ommittee not agree that in fact the

P olicy and Resources Committee's views

o n this matter go back as far as 20th

S eptember, nearly two months and that at any time the Island Development

C ommittee was free to make public that r eport or to bring it to the House

i rrespective of Policy and Resources?

B ut the Policy and Resources Committee h aving tried to be helpful about

s eeing the difficulties that could

a rise with the kind of proposition

t hat was put forward by the Island

D evelopment Committee, sent it back to t he Island Development Committee with t heir views, I say nearly two months

a go and we have heard nothing since,

d oes he not agree with that?''

P resident,  Island Development

C ommittee - I feel that my Committee