The official version of this document can be found via the PDF button.
The below content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost, therefore it should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments.
STATES MINUTES 1 2 t h O ct ober 1993
P r ic e : £ 1 .0 0
T HE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 12th October 1993 at 9.30 a.m. under
t h e Presidency of the Bailiff ,
S i r P eter Crill, C.B.E.
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
All Members were present with the exception of -
J ohn Le Gallais, Deputy of St. Saviour -
o ut of the Island.
P hilip Roy Cabot, Deputy of Trinity - out
o f the Island.
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
P r a y e rs
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
Communication by the Bailiff on ex-internees
The Bailiff made a statement in the following terms -
On 24th August 1993 the States, adopting a proposition of Senator J.S. Rothwell -
( a) expressed their support of claims for
c o m pensation made on behalf of those
c i vi lian residents of Jersey who were
d e p orted from the Island during the
G er man Occupation to internment camps i n G ermany, contrary to international
l a w ;
( b) requested Her Majesty's Government to m ak e further representations to the
G er man Government on behalf of the ex- i n te rnees in respect of their claims.
I communicated the States decision to
H .M. Government, and I have now received a r eply in the following terms -
H e r Majesty's Government takes the
v i ew that the deportation of Channel
I s la nders was a breach of international
l a w and the Channel Islanders who were d e p orted have a claim against Germany.
H o wever, there is no court in
w h ich Germany, a sovereign country, can b e p rosecuted or pursued in this
r e sp ect. Nor is there a precedent for
t he payment of compensation for this -
a s f ar as Her Majesty's Government is
a w a re, Germany has not paid
c o m pensation for similar claims from
o t h er countries. The only available
a v e nue is persuasion. That is why Her
M a jesty's Government pressed the German G o vernment hard over a long period of
t im e and at many levels, including that
o f t he Foreign Secretary. But in their
d e f initive, negative, reply on the 7th
A pril, 1993, the Germans made clear
t h at their decision had been taken at a
h i g h political level and that they
w o uld not change their mind. Her
M a jesty's Government, therefore, doubts
t h at further representations would
c a u se the German Government to review
i ts d ecision.
F i n ally, after considering the
m at ter carefully, Her Majesty's
G o vernment has reluctantly concluded t h at there is no practicable way of
ta k ing the Channel Islanders' claims
a n y further.'.''
Maternity entitlement in employment - code of good practice (P.44/93): report of Special Committee on Sex Discrimination. P.157/93
The Special Committee on Sex Discrimination, by Act dated 15th September 1993, presented to the States a report on its proposition entitled Maternity entitlement in employment - code of good practice P.157/93.
Surgical and medical treatment in the United Kingdom - fund (P.50/93): comments of the Finance and Economics Committee. P.158/93
The Finance and Economics Committee, by Act dated 20th September 1993, presented to the States its comments on the proposition entitled Surgical and medical treatment in the United Kingdom: fund (P.50/93).
Regulation of Undertakings and Development: six- monthly manpower returns. R.C.31
The Finance and Economics Committee, by Act dated 4th October 1993, presented to the States
a report on manpower for the six month period to 30th June 1993.
Dental care for secondary school pupils and young adults. R.C.32
The Public Health and Social Security Committees, by Acts dated 6th October 1993, presented to the States a report on dental care for secondary school pupils and young adults.
Matters noted - land transactions
THE STATES noted an Act of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 4th October 1993 showing that in pursuance of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved -
( a) as recommended by the Education
C o m mittee, to enter into a deed of
a r ra ngement with R.L.S. Properties
L i m ited in order to clarify the eastern b o u ndary of Resthaven, St. Saviour , w it h each party being responsible for i ts o wn legal expenses;
( b) as recommended by the Housing
C o m mittee, to grant to Mr. Trevor
S t a nley Moore a pedestrian right of way
f ro m the rear of his property, 39
T r in ity Road, St. Helier, to Trinity
R o a d across the site of the Beau Vallon
H o using Committee development, and the r ig h t to construct a garden gate at the
r e ar of 39 Trinity Road to enable the
r ig h t of way to be used, for the sum of
£5 0 0, with Mr. Moore being responsible
f o r all reasonable legal fees involved
i n t he transaction;
( c) as recommended by the Housing
C o m mittee, to grant to Mr. Gerard
V in cent Healy and Mrs. Sally Elizabeth
H ea ly, née Shaw, certain rights of
a c c ess in order to maintain the western e l ev ation of their property, 51B
C l e arview Street, St. Helier , which
b o r dered a private lane belonging to
t h e public at the rear of Jane Sandeman C o u rt, St. Helier. The right of access
w o uld include the right to erect
s c a ffolding and the use of ladders,
e t c. , as necessary, provided that it
w as limited to the area immediately
a d ja cent to the property and did not
b l o ck the lane. In addition, to grant
t h e ratification of minor encroachments b y the property towards the said
p r iv ate lane, namely five windows and
o n e air vent in the western elevation
a n d a slight roof overhang. The
f o re going was granted for the sum of
£5 0 0, with Mr. and Mrs. Healey being r e sp onsible for all reasonable legal
f e es involved in the transaction.
Matters lodged
The following subjects were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Draft Compulsory Purchase of
L a n d (Fees) (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P . 1 52/93.
P r e sented by the Legislation
C o m mittee.
2 . Draft Sea Fisheries (Jersey) Law 1 9 9 . P.153/93.
P r e sented by the Agriculture and F i s heries Committee.
3 . Draft Territorial Sea
( C o nsequential Provisions) (Jersey) Law 1 9 9 . P.154/93.
P r e sented by the Policy and
R e s ources Committee.
4 . Draft Data Protection
( Regulation of Financial Services,
e t c. ) (Subject Access Exemption)
( A m endment No. 2) (Jersey) Regulations 1 9 9 . P.155/93.
P r e sented by the Finance and
E c o nomics Committee.
5 . Traffic and transport policy:
t ra n sfer to Public Services Committee.
P . 1 56/93.
P r e sented by the Policy and R e s ources Committee.
6 . Draft Social Security (No. 2)
( J er sey) Regulations 199 . P.159/93. S o c ial Security Committee.
Arrangement of Public Business for the present Sitting
THE STATES agreed to a request from the President of the Housing Committee that consideration of the draft Building Loans (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment No. 23) (Jersey) Regulations 199 (P.144/93 - lodged on 28th September 1993) be deferred from the present Sitting to a later date.
THE STATES agreed to a request from the Vice- President of the Public Services Committee that consideration of Field 454A, St. Saviour : purchase of land (P.126/93 - lodged on 24th August 1993) be deferred from the present Sitting and that it be taken as the first item
of Public Business on 26th October 1993.
The President of the Policy and Resources Committee withdrew the draft Territorial Sea (Consequential Provisions) (Jersey) Law 199 (P.14/93 - lodged on 2nd February 1993) having lodged revised draft Regulations (P.154/93) at the present Sitting.
THE STATES agreed to a request from Deputy S.M. Baudains that consideration of her proposition, together with the comments made by the Finance and Economics Committee, on Surgical and medical treatment in the United Kingdom: fund (P.50/93) lodged on 13th April 1993, be deferred from the present Sitting to a later date.
Arrangement of Public Business for the next Sitting on 26th October 1993
THE STATES confirmed that the following subjects lodged au Greffe'' should be considered at the
next Sitting on 26th October 1993 -
F ield 454, St. Saviour: purchase of land. P .126/93.
L odged: 24th August 1993.
P ublic Services Committee.
M aternity entitlement in employment: c ode of good practice. P.44/93.
L odged: 6th April 1993.
S enator C. Stein.
M aternity entitlement in employment -
c ode of good practice: report of the
S pecial Committee on Sex Discrimination. P .157/93.
D raft Compulsory Purchase of Land
( Fees) (Jersey) Regulations 199 . P.152/93. L odged: 12th October 1993.
L egislation Committee.
D raft Data Protection (Regulation of
F inancial Services etc.) (Subject Access E xemption) (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) R egulations 199 . P.155/93.
F inance and Economics Committee.
British Geological Society. Questions and answers (Tape No. 207)
Senator John Stephen Rothwell asked the Vice- President of the Public Services Committee the following questions -
1. W ould the Vice-President inform
th e S ta tes of the terms on which
h is C o mmittee engaged the services
o f th e British Geological Society?
2 . How much has been paid out to the
B r i tish Geological Society and what
o u t standing amounts remain to be paid,
a n d when does the Committee envisage t h e completion of work by the British
G eo logical Society?
3 . Would the Vice-President advise the
S t a tes how much law drafting time has b e e n spent so far on the preparation of t h e proposed legislation to conserve
a n d protect the water supplies of the
I s la nd?''
The Vice-President replied as follows -
1. T he verbatim brief for British G e o lo g ical Survey, provided in 1 9 8 9 i s as follows -
( i) Establish a hydrogeological
d at a b a se for the Island to
d et e r m ine location and
q u an t i fication of available
g ro u n d water resources together w i th y ield and response to
ab s t ra c tion, rainfall and drought, in c l u d ing risks of marine
in v a s io n.
( ii ) The quantification of the
re l a ti o nship between ground and su r f a ce water, including the
ef f e c t of agricultural irrigation
o n r e c harge.
( ii i) To evaluate groundwater
ch e m i st r y and to determine
v u ln e r a b ility of water
su p p l i es to pollution from
co m m e rc ial, agricultural and d o m e s ti c sources and to
re c o m m e nd possible remedial m e a s u re s .
T h is g roundwater source database w i ll b e based on a survey of
ex i s ti n g wells and boreholes at a d en s i ty of one per km grid square. B G S t o be responsible for all
ar r a n g ements including
id e n t if ication, monitoring and
sa m p li ng of boreholes.
( iv ) To evaluate the potential
g ro u n d water resource and the
re a c ti o n of the St Ouen's Bay sand aq u i f e r to rainfall, drought and
ab s t ra c tion, by means of a
co m p u ter model.
( v ) To supply monitoring equipment for a m in i mum period of 12 months for
a l o n g er term groundwater
m o n i to ring process. Public
B u il d i ng and Works Department to
id e n t if y locations of possible
b o re h o les, and BGS to comment on
su i ta b i lity and monitoring
re q u i re ments. The results of this
su r v e y would be used for possible
fu r th e r refinements to the
g ro u n d water survey at a later
d at e .
2 . From its original involvement in 1989 u n t il the present day, British
G eo logical Survey have been paid a t o ta l £165,961.07, and further
c o m mitments amount to £5,200.00.
D u ring this period British Geological S u r vey have undertaken investigation a n d monitoring work, produced five
c o m prehensive technical reports and an H y drogeological Map of the Island.
T h e detailed catchment study, currently u n d erway, together with updated
m o nitoring data will need to be
a n a lysed, evaluated and reported on by t h e British Geological Survey. The time s p a n for this work will depend upon the
o u t come of the ongoing studies but it
i s n ot expected to be less than two
m o re years.
3 . The Law Draftsman has had occasional m ee tings with the Chief Engineer,
P u b lic Services Department, the Public
S e r vices Committee, and a leading
e n v ironmental legal consultant who has b e e n engaged by the Department to
p r e pare the drafting instructions for
t h e proposed new Water Resources Law.
T h e purpose of these meetings was to d i sc uss the background to the proposed l e gi slation and to agree with the
c o n sultant the form and content of the d r a fting instructions.
A lt hough the law drafting instructions h a v e been forwarded to the Law
D ra ftsman they have not yet been
f in a lised. Therefore, no law drafting
t im e has been spent on the preparation
o f t he proposed legislation, but the
L a w Draftsman estimates that the
m ee tings referred to above have
o c c upied about two working days in
t o ta l.''
Maximum rate of interest for States Loans. Questions and answers (Tape No. 207)
Senator Richard Joseph Shenton asked Deputy Leonard Norman, President of the Housing Committee the following questions -
1. W ill the President inform the
H o u s e when the current maximum in t e re s t rate for States Loans was se t a t 1 1 per cent?
2 . Will the President inform the House as t o t he current bank interest rate at
t h at time?
3 . Will the President inform the House as t o c urrent bank interest rates?
4 . When is the Housing Committee, in
c o n sultation with the Finance and
E c o nomics Committee, going to reduce t h e present exorbitant States Loan
i n te rest rates in line with their
p o l icy of fluctuation?''
The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -
1. T he current maximum interest rate
fo r S ta tes Loans entered into from 1 4 th O ctober 1992, was set at 11
p er c en t on 13th October 1992.
2 . At that time, a typical commercial m o rtgage rate was ten per cent.
3 . A typical commercial mortgage today is a v a ilable at 7.99 per cent.
4 . In November 1992 when commercial rates d r o pped to about nine per cent, my
C o m mittee reviewed the rate of 11 per
c e n t in relation to commercial mortgage
i n te rest rates and recommended to the
F i n ance and Economics Committee that
t h e maximum rate be reduced to ten per
c e n t.
T h e Finance and Economics Committee c o n sidered my Committee's proposal at i ts m eeting of 14th December 1992, and r e co mmended that the maximum rate be l e ft at 11 per cent for the time being.
I n i ts Act of 14th December 1992, the
F i n ance Committee commented as
f o ll ows -
T h e C ommittee recalled that one
o f th e benefits of the States Loan
S c h em e was that borrowers who were
o n t h e maximum rate were able to
o b ta i n a subsidised rate on their
lo a n w hen their financial ci r c u m stances changed. It further re c a ll e d that one of the reasons
fo r m a intaining the maximum rate ab o v e the commercial rate was to en c o u r age borrowers to obtain
p ri v a te loans. If borrowers wanted to b e n efit from the flexibility of
th e S ta tes Loan Scheme, they could ch o o s e to enter the Scheme at a
h ig h e r rate, rather than obtaining
a l o w e r rate privately; it was up
to th e borrower to choose.'
W h en my Committee considered the r e co mmendation of the Finance and E c o nomics Committee, it decided to a c c ept that recommendation for the r e as ons given and which I have just q u o ted. Whilst my Committee has m o nitored the situation since that
t im e, it has not decided to reduce the r a te .
M y Committee intends to review whether
o r n ot the current maximum rate should b e a ltered before the end of this
c a le ndar year. Whether or not we decide t o r educe it will depend on a number of
f a ct ors - e.g. whether commercial rates
c h a nge in the meantime, whether or not
e v id ence exists which suggests that the
c u r rent arrangement is preventing
f ir s t-time buyers from buying property,
e t c. I have only recently explained to
t h e House that the rationale of the
S t a tes Loan Scheme since it was
r e st ructured in 1991 and 1992 is to
d i re ct subsidies to those who need them
( i. e . young families on low or modest
i n co mes who could never realise their
a m b ition of owning their own homes
w it hout those subsidies). It is not now
d e s igned to help those who can afford
t o b orrow privately and who do not need S t a tes subsidies for this purpose.
I s h ould remind Members that in 1992 my C o m mittee granted 276 loans and expects t o g rant a similar number in both 1993
a n d 1994. This compares with figures of 3 6 in 1988, 35 in 1989, 70 in 1990 and
7 7 in 1991. We currently have
a p p roximately £75M. outstanding in
l o an s and this figure is expected to
r is e to approximately £100M. over the
n e x t few years.
T h e re are currently approximately 3,500 b o r rowers, and of these only 18 are
p a y ing at the 11 per cent level. The
a n n ual earnings of these 18 borrowers
r a n ge from £28,399 to £39,717. Their
l o an repayments, as a proportion of
i n co me, range from as low as 16 per
c e n t to the maximum proportion payable u n d er the terms of the Scheme.
I f w e are to continue to provide funds
f o r those first-time buyers who cannot
a f fo rd commercial rates, it is
i m p erative that those on good incomes, a n d who do not need taxpayer support to b u y their homes, are encouraged to
b o r row privately. This is the rationale
b e h ind the approach which the Finance a n d Housing Committees have taken to t h e question of the maximum interest
r a te and there are already clear signs
t h at it is succeeding in that more
f ir s t-time buyers on higher incomes are u s in g private as opposed to public
f u n ds for this purpose.''
Commodore Shipping (Jersey) Limited: lease of land at St. Helier Harbour
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Harbours and Airport Committee -
( a) suspended Standing Order No. 18(2);
( b) approved the lease to Commodore
S h i pping (Jersey) Limited of 20,000
s q u are feet of land situated in
E l iz abeth Harbour in St. Helier, shown
o n the Plan 405/1, for a period of 42
y e a rs commencing 1st November 1993, at 8 0 pence a square foot, subject to
r e v iew every five years, to enable the
s a id company to construct and maintain
t h e second Elizabeth Harbour
w ar ehouse/transit shed at its own
e x p ense;
( c) authorised the Attorney General and G re ffier of the States to pass the
n e c essary contracts on behalf of the p u b lic;
( d) authorised the Treasurer of the States t o receive the payments as they became d u e .
Building Loans (Amendment No. 12) (Jersey) Law 1993. P.129/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Building Loans (Amendment No. 12) (Jersey) Law 1993.
Protection of Children (Jersey) Law 1993. P.134/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Protection of Children (Jersey) Law 1993.
Criminal Justice (Young Offenders) (Jersey) Law 1993. P.138/93 and 150/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Criminal Justice (Young Offenders) (Jersey) Law 1993.
Prison (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 1993. P.148/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Prison (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 1993.
Food and Drugs (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Law 1993. P.139/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Food and Drugs (Amendment No. 2) (Jersey) Law 1993.
Public Employees (Retirement) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Law 1993. P.145/93
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Public Employees (Retirement) (Amendment No. 4) (Jersey) Law 1993.
Public Employees (Contributory Retirement
Scheme) (New Members) (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Regulations 1993. P.146/93
THE STATES, in pursuance of Article 2 of the Public Employees (Retirement) (Jersey) Law 1967, as amended, made Regulations entitled the Public Employees (Contributory Retirement Scheme) (New Members) (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Regulations 1993.
Convention on Social Security between the United Kingdom and Cyprus: Amendments. P.147/93
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Social Security Committee, requested the Bailiff to inform the Secretary of State that it was the
wish of the Assembly that the Amendments, as proposed in a draft Exchange of Letters, of the Convention on Social Security between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Cyprus should apply to Jersey.
Public Holidays and Bank Holidays (Jersey) Act 1993. P.149/93
THE STATES, in pursuance of Article 2 of the Public Holidays and Bank Holidays (Jersey) Law 1951, as amended, made an Act entitled the Public Holidays and Bank Holidays (Jersey) Act 1993.
THE STATES rose at 12 noon.
G .H . C . C OPPOCK G re f fi e r o f the States.