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STATES MINUTES 1 7 th Ju n e 1997 P ri c e : £ 1 . 5 0
T HE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 1 7th June 1997 at 9.30 a.m. under
t h e Presidency of the Bailiff ,
S ir P hilip Bailhache
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor,
General Sir Michael Wilkes, K.C.B., C.B.E, w a s p r e sent.
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
All members were present with the exception of -
S enator Richard Joseph Shenton - out of the I sland.
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
P r a y e rs
_ _ _ _ _ _ ______
Tribute to the late Mrs. Susan Roworth - employee of the States Greffe
The Bailiff paid tribute to Mrs. Susan Roworth, recently deceased employee of the States Greffe, who had dispensed refreshments in the Members Room during meetings of the States.
THE STATES observed one minute's silence as a mark of respect.
Mr. M. Gould, Occupation escapee, final resting place - letter of thanks
The Bailiff informed the Assembly that he had received the following letter from Mr. Peter D. Hassall -
Dear Sir Philip,
I wish to thank you, members of the States
o f Jersey and the people of Jersey for your u nderstanding and generosity, which
p ermitted Maurice Gould to be brought to h is final resting place in the Howard Davis P ark, Jersey.
T he Howard Davis Park is a fitting place
f or Maurice, as it was outside its gates,
e arly on Sunday, 3rd May 1942, that Dennis A udrain, Maurice Gould and I assembled, and m ade the fateful decision to go ahead with
t he escape - the rest is now part of
J ersey's history.
T hank you for your kind words to my fellow N ight and Fog survivors on 3rd May. They
h ave asked me to thank everyone who made p ossible Maurice Gould's return, as they
a re very much aware of my fifty-year
C rusade, which could not have been achieved w ithout the compassion and help of many
p eople on the Island of Jersey.
R espectfully,
P eter D. Hassall.''
Australian Parliamentarian's visit - welcome
The Bailiff welcomed to the States Mr. Barry Traynor M.P., member of the Parliament of the State of Victoria, Australia.
Adjournment
The Bailiff informed the Assembly that as some members wished to attend the funeral of the late Mr. Peter Lambert, former Chief Executive of Health and Social Services Committee, the States would adjourn at 11.45 a.m. and reconvene at 2.30 p.m.
Subordinate legislation tabled
The following enactments were laid before the States, namely -
1 . Royal Court (Remuneration of
C o m missioners) (Jersey) Order 1997. R & O 9089.
2 . Court of Appeal (Remuneration of
O rd inary Judges) (Jersey) Order 1997.
R & O 9090.
3 . Battle of Flowers (Jersey) Order 1 9 9 7. R & O 9091.
4 . Gorey Fête (Jersey) Order 1997. R & O 9092.
Tourism Committee - resignation
THE STATES noted the resignation of Deputy Michael Adam Wavell of St. Saviour from the Tourism Committee.
Matters presented
The following matters were presented to the States -
1 . Department of Driver and Vehicle S t a ndards: report for 1996.
P r e sented by the Defence
C o mmittee.
2 . Medical Officer of Health: a n n ual report for 1996.
P r e sented by the Health and S o c ial Services Committee.
Matter noted - acceptance of tender
THE STATES noted an Act of the Finance and Economics Committee, dated 9th June 1997, showing that, in pursuance of Rule 5 of the Public Finances (General) (Jersey) Rules 1967, as amended, the Committee had noted that the Health and Social Services Committee had accepted the lowest tender in respect of Phase 1 of the Sandybrook Residential Home Care Centre contract, namely that submitted by A.C. Mauger and Son (Sunwin) Limited in the sum of £3,257,137 in a contract period of 75 weeks.
Matters lodged
The following matters were lodged au Greffe'' -
1 . Draft Advocates and Solicitors
( J er sey) Law 1997 (Appointed Day) Act 1 9 9 - P.84/97.
P r e sented by the Legislation
C o m mittee.
2 . Draft Departments of the
J u d iciary and the Legislature
( A m endment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 1997 ( A p pointed Day) Act 199 - P.85/97.
P r e sented by the Legislation
C o m mittee.
3 . Stopford Road/Wellington Road g y r atory road scheme: purchase of l a nd - P.86/97.
P r e sented by the Public Services
C o m mittee.
4 . Fire Service Headquarters: r e lo cation - P.87/97.
P r e sented by the Defence
C o m mittee.
5 . St. Helier Waterfront Plan: west
o f A lbert Pier - housing - P.88/97.
P r e sented by the Planning and
E n v ironment Committee.
6 . Orillande, La Rue du Mont Capel,
S t . Ouen: development in Green Zone - P . 8 9/97.
P r e sented by the Planning and
E n v ironment Committee.
Orillande, La Rue du Mont Capel, St. Ouen : development in Green Zone - P.59/97. Withdrawn.
THE STATES acceded to the request of the President of the Planning and Environment Committee that the proposition regarding Orillande, La Rue du Mont Capel, St. Ouen : development in Green Zone (P.59/96 - lodged au Greffe'' on 16th April 1996) be withdrawn, the Committee having lodged a revised proposition at the present meeting (P.89/97).
Sutton House, The Parade, St. Helier : lease of office accommodation. P.83/97
THE STATES acceded to the request of the President of the Finance and Economics Committee that consideration of the proposition regarding
the lease of office accommodation in Sutton
House (lodged au Greffe''on 3rd June 1997) be taken immediately after the draft The Lloyds TSB (Jersey) Law 199 at the present meeting. Arrangement of public business for the next meeting on 8th July 1997
THE STATES confirmed that the following matters lodged au Greffe'' would be considered at the
next meeting on 8th July 1997 -
D raft Advocates and Solicitors (Jersey) Law 1 997 (Appointed Day) Act 199 - P.84/97. L odged: 17th June 1997.
L egislation Committee.
D raft Departments of the Judiciary
a nd the Legislature (Amendment No. 3) (Jersey) Law 1997 (Appointed Day) Act 1 99 - P.85/97.
L odged: 17th June 1997.
L egislation Committee.
S topford Road/Wellington Road
g yratory road scheme: purchase of land - P .86/97.
L odged: 17th June 1997.
P ublic Services Committee.
F ire Service Headquarters: r elocation - P.87/97.
L odged: 17th June 1997. D efence Committee.
O rillande, La Rue du Mont Capel, St.
O uen: development in Green Zone - P.89/97. L odged: 17th June 1997.
P lanning and Environment
C ommittee.
Jersey Royal potato crop - questions and answers (Tape No. 395)
Deputy Maxwell Robert de la Haye of St. Brelade . asked Deputy Jeremy Laurence Dorey of St. Helier , President of the Agriculture and
Fisheries Committee, the following questions -
1. W ill the President inform the A s s em bly if he is satisfied that
ea c h o f the three groups exporting th e Je r sey Royal potato crop has
b ee n m arketed in the best possible in t e re s ts of the growers and the
Is l an d ?
2 . Will the President inform the Assembly i f it is the opinion of his Committee
t h at the quota system has been too
r e st rictive by one group in particular
d u r ing May 1997, therefore leaving many p o t atoes to be harvested at uneconomic
p r ic es and dumped at Crabbé?''
The President of the Agriculture and Fisheries Committee replied as follows -
1. Y es I am satisfied that through
th e o ff ices of the Jersey Potato
C o u n c il the three exporting groups h av e c o-operated fully in
m a r k e ting the Jersey Royal potato cr o p so as to achieve the best
p o ss i b le returns for growers. It
is c l e a rly in the Island's
in t e re s t also, both financially
an d e n vironmentally, that the crop sh o u l d be effectively marketed.
2 . The quotas are designed to ensure that t h e quantity of potatoes lifted equates w it h the demand. It would be pointless f o r any group to allow its growers to
d i g in excess of perceived demand.
T h e potatoes taken to Crabbé this year a s i n other years are generally green, b l em ished or oversized and, this year, t h ey have not been dumped but
c o m posted.''
La Motte Ford site in Grouville , proposed development - questions and answers (Tape No. 395)
Deputy Imogen Stephanie Nicholls of Grouville asked Senator Corrie Stein, President of the Housing Committee, the following questions -
1. U sing the model contained in the
H o u s in g Department's Policy
g u id e l ines No. 4 relating to
H o u s in g Associations (August
1 9 9 5 ), would the President advise m e m b ers whether there will be a co s t t o the taxpayer in developing 1 7 u n i ts of States housing on the L a M otte Ford site in Grouville ,
th i s m odel to be prepared on the
sa m e f ormat set out in the policy g u id e l ines to support the
re s p o n se, with separate cost
d et a il s to be provided for the
co s t s a lready expended on the site
an d , s e parately, the full
es t im a ted construction costs?
2 . Given that this development will be
c a te gory A' housing, would the
P r e sident advise members of the
e x p ected level of rent rebate for the
f u tu re tenants based on a model from a s im ilar estate?''
The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -
1. I t has always been acknowledged
th a t t h e development of this
co m m ercial site for social housing
w a s g o ing to be expensive. The
D e p u ty , as a member of the Finance
an d E c onomics Committee, will know th a t a l l commercial sites are
ex p e n s ive to develop. This is true
o f o th e r commercial sites that
h av e b een developed by the Housing C o m m ittee over the years.
I n a ddition, the site's ground
c o n ditions and the planning
r e q uirements laid down by the Planning a n d Environment Committee to ensure t h at a careful balance is maintained
b e tw een housing needs and those of the i m m ediate environment will have an
e f fe ct on the overall cost of the
d e v elopment.
I r e gret that I am not in a position to
a n s wer the Deputy 's question in the
d e ta il she requires. My Department is
c u r rently in discussion with the Jersey H o mes Trust, who will develop the site, t o g ether with the Project Architect and Q u antity Surveyor to agree detailed
c o n struction costs.
T h e Deputy will be aware that it would n o t be prudent for the Committee to
d isclose estimates of construction
c o s ts at this stage, prior to the
d e v elopment going out to tender.
H o wever, I would be prepared to supply t h is information to the Deputy and
o t h er members of the States, in
c o n fidence, in due course.
N ev ertheless, I am able to give the D ep uty the costs that have been e x p ended on the development so far -
th e si te was rezoned for Category A ' h o u sing in the 1987 Island
P la n ;
in 1 9 9 2, the Housing Committee of th e d ay , with States' support,
p u rc h a sed the La Motte Ford site fo r t h e sum of £572,000, plus
£8 ,7 2 5 in professional and legal
fe e s ;
in 1 9 9 4, the States granted the
H o u s in g Committee compulsory
p u rc h a se powers to acquire Tremont H o u s e and Tremont Villa;
in 1 9 9 6, the Housing Committee,
f o llowing detailed negotiations by th e D e partment of Property
S e rv i c es, purchased Tremont House in th e sum of £169,000, plus
£1 ,6 0 5 in legal fees, and Tremont V i ll a i n the sum of £155,000, plus
£7 ,0 0 0 in professional and legal
fe e s .
T h e total cost to acquire the site
t h er efore was in the sum of £904,330.
S i n ce its acquisition the site has
y i el ded £189,000 in rental from the l e as e to La Motte Ford.
I c a n also confirm that approximately
£5 0 ,000 has been spent on architects a n d associated design costs.
2 . The expected level of rent rebate will
b e c ompletely dependent on the level of t e na nts' income and will be similar to
t h at given to States' tenants living on
t h e Committee's latest developments.''
Decision conferencing programme - question and answer (Tape No. 395)
Deputy Philip John Rondel of St. John, asked Senator Pierre François Horsfall, President of the Policy and Resources Committee, the following question -
Given that a considerable amount of time h as been spent by Committees in carrying
o ut the decision conferencing procedure, w ould the President inform members of the c ost to the Island in salaries of all staff
i nvolved in this exercise, and quantify the
c ost to the Departments in loss of manpower t ime whilst this procedure has taken place, using the following four Departments to
u ndertake the survey - Health and Social
S ervices, Education, Public Services and
A griculture and Fisheries?''
The President of the Policy and Resources Committee replied as follows -
The Chief Adviser to the States has
r equested the information from the
D epartments concerned. I am informed that d ue to the everyday commitments of
D epartments, and the considerable work
i nvolved in providing this information, it
w ill take some time to collate. In this
r espect, the information will only be
m eaningful if it can be compared with the
s taff time and cost that would have been
i ncurred to prioritise Department
e xpenditure using an alternative equally
e ffective method.
T he information requested will be made a vailable as soon as I receive it.''
Tax relief on mortgages - questions and answers (Tape No. 395)
Senator Stuart Syvret asked Senator Frank Harris on Walker , President of the Finance and Economics Committee, the following questions -
1. W ould the President inform the A s s em bly how many income tax
p ay i n g companies are being allowed ta x re l ief on mortgage interest
p ay m e nts in respect of property
h el d ab road?
2 . Would the President inform the Assembly
o f t he total value of mortgage interest
t a x relief granted in respect of
p r o perties held abroad?''
The President of the Finance and Economics Committee replied as follows -
1. T his information is not available.
T h e I n come Tax Department merely re c o r d s on computer the net profit
o f a c o mpany, not the constituent el e m e n ts of the profit and loss ac c o u n t and the balance sheet.
2 . For the reason given in reply to
q u e stion 1, and for the additional
r e as on that the tax return does not ask i n d ividuals to identify whether the
m o rtgage interest is in respect of
p r o perties held in Jersey or overseas, t h is information is not available.''
1(1)(k) residents - questions and answers (Tape No. 395)
Senator Stuart Syvret asked Senator Frank Harris on Walker , President of the Finance and Economics Committee, the following questions -
1. I n answer to a question on 20th
M a y 1 997, members were informed th a t a t otal of 183 1(1)(k)
w e a lt h y immigrants were resident
in th e Island as at 31st December
1 9 9 4 . Would the President inform
th e H o use how many of the 183 were re s id e n t in the Island in 1991?
2 . What was the average amount
o f t ax paid by these residents in
1 9 9 1?''
The President of the Finance and Economics Committee replied as follows -
1. 1 69.
2 . This is impossible to establish with
c o m plete accuracy. It would be
s e ri ously misleading merely to quote
t h e average tax paid by the individuals
i n t heir own right because many pay tax v i a investment companies, the
i d en tities of which could only fully be
e s ta blished by contacting those
r e si dents or their professional
a d v isers. That would be an intrusion;
t h e individuals concerned would anyway b e u nder no obligation to supply the
i n fo rmation, and the whole exercise
w o uld place an unacceptable demand on p u b lic sector resources.''
Extension of a 1(1)(j) category consent -
questions and answers (Tape No. 395)
Senator Stuart Syvret asked Senator Corrie Stein, President of the Housing Committee, the following questions -
1. I n December 1992 an extension to a
( j) ' c a tegory consent was granted
in re s p ect of a general manager of
C .I . N ewsagents, a subsidiary of
T h e G uiton Group. In respect of
th i s e x tension would the President
in f o rm the Assembly whether the
ad v i c e of the Chief Adviser sought
in re s p ect of this application
an d , i f so, what was that advice?
2 . Would the President inform the Assembly
o f t he reasons the then Housing
C o m mittee recorded for concluding that
g r a nting this renewal was
es s ential'?''
The President of the Housing Committee replied as follows -
- A s isusual in such cases, the
ad v i c e of the Chief Adviser was so u g h t in respect of this
p ar t ic u lar application.
A t the time of the initial application, w h ich was not acceded to, his advice w as not supportive.
F o l lowing an appeal by the company, the C h i ef Adviser's further advice was
s o u ght, such advice still not fully
s u p porting the application.
- T heCommittee records show that
th e d ec ision to grant this consent
w a s b a sed against a background of co m m ents made in the States'
d eb a t e on the Policy and Resources C o m m ittee's Strategy report in
Ju n e 1 992, when the Housing
C o m m ittee had been asked to be
m o r e f lexible when dealing with
ex t e n s ions of consents under
R e g u la tion 1(1)(j).
H av ing considered all the relevant
i n fo rmation available to it, the
C o m mittee concluded that consent could
b e g ranted as being in the best
i n te rests of the community in
a c c ordance with the terms of that p a r ticular Regulation.''
Projects to celebrate the Millennium - question and answer (Tape No. 395)
Deputy Terence John Le Main of St. Helier asked Senator Pierre François Horsfall, President of
the Policy and Resources Committee, the following question -
As the year 2000 (i.e. the Millennium) is
o nly 30 months away and the States have
agreed to fund a significant project to
c elebrate the year 2000, would the
P resident inform the Assembly -
( a) how many projects have been submitted f o r consideration?
( b) what are these proposals and the names
o f t he proposers?
( c) what funding is or will be available to f u n d a project to celebrate the
M il lennium?
( d) how and when are these proposals coming t o t he States for consideration?
( e) have the Committee decided to recommend a p r oject to the States?''
The President of the Policy and Resources Committee replied as follows -
The answer to the Deputy 's question in t he order presented is as follows -
( a) an exercise undertaken by the Island's
m ed ia produced many suggestions. From t h es e, some 73 individual Millennium
p r o posals were identified for
c o n sideration;
( b) a list of the Millennium proposals is
o n members' desks. The Committee
i n vited proposals from Island residents g e n erally. Many replied through the use
o f a reply coupon published in the
J e rs ey Evening Post or by the Channel R e p ort vote line and and the names of
t h e proposers were not recorded in all c a s es;
( c) the Finance and Economics Committee
w h en approached by the Policy and
R e s ources Committee indicated that a
m ax imum sum of £2 million could be set
a s id e to fund a Millennium project or
p r o jects. If the Policy and Resources
C o m mittee wishes to recommend a greater l e ve l of expenditure, then this would
n e e d to be financed by reducing the
c a p ital programme for the appropriate
y e a r or years;
( d) the Committee following the declared p u b lic preference for an Urban Park as a M illennium project has been actively i n v estigating the possibilities. The
r e as on for the delay in bringing
p r oposals to the States has been the
d i ff iculties experienced in identifying a s u itable site for a public park that
s a ti sfies public expectations,
r e p resents real value for money and is a f fo rdable within the funds that could b e e xpected to be allocated by the
F i n ance and Economics Committee;
( e) the Committee is not yet in a position
t o r ecommend a project to the States
w it h the exception of the bursaries it
h a s agreed to provide to the Société
J e rs iaise for research fellowships and
g r a nts in Jersey history, and to
H ig hlands College for social science
r e se arch on aspects of Jersey society,
a t a combined estimated cost of
£1 5 0,000. The Committee is still
s e e king to find a site for a public
p a r k in St. Helier which fulfils public
e x p ectations. The consultation exercise p r o duced some support for the idea of a n e w park located on the waterfront. The
o u t come of the debate on the Planning
a n d Environment Committee's rezoning p r o posals will dictate whether this
o p t ion can be further explored.''
Terms of Employment Officers: appointment
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Employment and Social Security Committee and in accordance with Regulation 6(1) of the Terms of Employment (Jersey) Regulations 1995, appointed for a period of three years commencing on 1st July 1997 -
( a) Advocate John Gerald Patrick Wheeler as T e r ms of Employment Officer;
( b) Advocate Julian Clive Gollop as Deputy T e r ms of Employment Officer.
The Lloyds TSB (Jersey) Law 199 - P.77/97
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled The Lloyds TSB (Jersey) Law 199 .
Sutton House, The Parade, St. Helier : lease of office accommodation - P.83/97
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Finance and Economics Committee -
( a) approved the leasing by the Finance and E c o nomics Committee from Woods and
C o m pany Limited of the second and third f lo o r office accommodation, comprising 1 6 , 314 square feet of floor space, and
c a r parking at Sutton House, The
P a r ade, St. Helier , to accommodate the
F i n ancial Services Department (the
r e sp onsibilities of which will, in due
c o u rse, in accordance with the States'
d e c ision of 24th October 1995, be
a s s umed by a Financial Services
C o m mission), for a period of 21 years
f ro m 25th June 1997 to 24th June 2018,
w it h a tenant's option to break the
l e as e at the end of the 15th year of
t h e term upon giving the landlord prior
n o t ice in writing at any time in the
1 4 t h year of the term, at a stepped
a n n ual rental for the office
a c c ommodation of -
£1 6 3 ,1 40 for the first year (£10 a sq u a r e foot)
£2 69,181 for the second year (£ 1 6 . 5 0 a square foot)
£3 5 0 ,7 51 for the third year (£ 2 1 . 5 0 a square foot)
w it h a three month rent free period f ro m 25th June 1997, together with
£1 3 ,500 a year (£1,500 a space a year) f o r the nine car parking spaces, with
t h re e yearly rent reviews to open
m ar ket rental value, such rental to
r e m ain the same or increase;
( b) approved the assignment of the lease to t h e Financial Services Commission upon i ts o btaining corporate status and
a g r eed that the Finance and Economics
C o m mittee, on behalf of the States,
s h o uld act as guarantor of the lease
o n c e assigned to the Financial Services
C o m mission;
( c) authorised the Attorney General and the G re ffier of the States to pass the
n e c essary contracts;
( d) authorised the Treasurer of the States t o p ay the rent as it becomes due until s u c h time as the lease is assigned to
t h e Financial Services Commission.
Members present voted as follows -
P o u r'' (44) Senators
H orsfall, Rothwell, Le Maistre, Stein,
Q uérée, Bailhache , Tomes, Norman, Walker , K innard.
Connétable s
S t. Clement, St. Lawrence, St. Mary, St. B relade, St. Peter, Grouville , St. Helier , S t. Saviour, St. Martin, St. John, Trinity .
Deputies
H . Baudains(C), Le Sueur(H), Coutanche(L), S t. Mary, S. Baudains(H), Trinity ,
P ullin(S), Johns(H), Routier(H), Dorey(H), L ayzell(B), Grouville , Huet(H), St. Martin, S t. John, Blampied(H), Crowcroft (H),
V ibert(B), de la Haye(B), Le Cornu(C),
S t. Peter, Dubras(L), St. Ouen.
C o n tre'' (6) Senator
S yvret. Deputies
L e Geyt(S), Duhamel(S), Breckon(S), Le M ain(H), Rabet(H).
One member abstained from voting.
Loi (199 ) pour abroger la Loi (1902) au sujet des ordres religieux étrangers - P.79/97
THE STATES, subject to the sanction of Her Most Excellent Majesty in Council, adopted a Law entitled the Loi (199 ) pour abroger la Loi
(1902) au sujet des ordres religieux étrangers.
Clarence Court, Clarence Road, St. Helier : transfer of administration - P.80/97
THE STATES, adopting a proposition of the Housing Committee, agreed to transferred the administration of Clarence Court, Clarence Road, St. Helier , from the Housing Committee to the Planning and Environment Committee.
Merchant Shipping (Deck Officers) (Jersey) Regulations 1997 - P.81/97
THE STATES, by virtue and in exercise of the powers conferred upon them by the Order in Council of the fourteenth day of April
1884, made Regulations entitled the Merchant Shipping (Deck Officers) (Jersey) Regulations 1997.
Merchant Shipping (Marine Engineer Officers and Marine Engine Operators) (Jersey) Regulations 1997 - P.82/97
THE STATES, by virtue and in exercise of the powers conferred upon them by the Order in Council of the fourteenth day of April
1884, made Regulations entitled the Merchant Shipping (Marine Engineer Officers and Marine Engine Operators) (Jersey) Regulations 1997.
THE STATES rose at 3.40 p.m.
G .H .C . C O P P O C K G re f fi e r o f the States.