PPC Minutes 30th September 2002

MH/PH/280 58

PRIVILEGES AND PROCEDURES COMMITTEE (12th Meeting)

30th September 2002

PART A

All members were present, with the exception of Deputy H.H. Baudains, from whom apologies had been received.

In attendance -

M.N. de la Haye, Deputy Greffier of the States

R.W. Whitehead, Principal Legal Adviser, Law Officers' Department S. Drew, Assistant Legal Adviser P. Byrne, Executive Officer Designate M.P. Haden, Committee Clerk.

Note: The Minutes of this meeting comprise Part A only.

Amendment (No. A1.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A8 of 8th August 2002, recalled 23) to the that it had agreed to lodge the draft Amendment (No. 23) to the Standing Orders of the Standing Orders States of Jersey, which was intended principally to give effect in Standing Orders to of the States of the new Committee structure to be put in place after December 2002. The lodging, Jersey. however,  had  been  delayed  in  order  to  give  the  Committee  time  to  consider  a 1240/22/1(17) suggestion of the Bailiff that the order of appointment of Presidents in the draft might be amended.

D.G.O.S.

Ex.Off. The Committee considered a report, dated 25th September 2002, from the Deputy Pub.Ed. Greffier of the States in this connexion. It was noted that the Standing Order proposed States (2) following the current order of appointment, taking into account the amalgamations of

Committees as agreed by the States in adopting P.70/2002 on departmental structure and transitional arrangements. The Committee, having considered the matter, agreed to maintain the order of appointment as originally drafted.

The Committee also noted a suggestion from Deputy H.H. Baudains that the following addition should be made to the proposed paragraph (2C) of Standing Order 42: except when the matter being considered is a matter in which the member has declared an interest or in which he has a personal interest.' The Committee, however, agreed that this issue could be adequately covered in the Code of Conduct for members.

The Committee approved the draft Amendment accordingly and requested that it be lodged au Greffe' at the earliest opportunity for consideration by the States. The Greffier of the States was requested to take the necessary action.

Machinery of A2.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A9 of 30th July 2002, requested that Government: a  draft  comment  in  relation  to  the  Report  and  Proposition  of  Senator  S.  Syvret Freedom of Machinery  of  Government:  Freedom  of  Representation' be  prepared  for  its Representation consideration, based on the Committee's previous Minutes.

(P.173/2002) -

comments. The  Committee  recognised  that  members  held  differing  views  on  the  issue  of 1240/22/1(13) collective responsibility. However, its general view was that it was unhelpful at this

stage in the machinery of government reform process to hold a debate about an issue Ex.Off. which it felt was properly the domain of the Council of Ministers itself when this was

finally established. The Chief Minister and the Council should devise and approve its

own Code of Conduct for Ministers at that time. It was not a matter which needed to be

determined by a parliamentary body.

Draft Report to A3.  The Committee, with reference to its Act No. A4 of 17th September 2002, gave the States. further detailed consideration to the scrutiny section in the latest draft of the report it 1240/22/1/6/1 was to present to the States in accordance with the Act of the States of 26th March

(2) 2002 (P.23/2002).

Ex.Off. The Committee made a number of minor revisions and considered the following points

in particular -

1. t hat  the  use  of  the  term  Scrutiny Panel' as  opposed  to Scrutiny Committee' should berecommendedinordertoemphasise the break from the current States Committee culture (paragraph2.8ofthedraftreport);
2. th at itwasimportant that the proposedpilot Scrutiny Panel to be set up early in 2003 be well resourced and wellplanned to ensure that the system of scrutiny gains a goodfoundation.Membershipof such a pilot Scrutiny Panelcouldbedrawn from anymembersof the Statesexceptthose from a Committee whose policies were actually under scrutiny by the Panel(2.9);
3. th at thelessons learnt from observationof the Scott ish Parliament should be highlighted in the report. Thetermsof reference of Scrutiny Committees there were particularly relevant to Jersey andshouldbeincluded in the appendix to the Report. It was agreed that thenatureof the work carried out by the Scott ish Parliament, as a devolved parliament, was moredirectly comparable  to  the work of the  States  of Jersey  than  that  of local governmentin the UnitedKingdom (2.14) (2.30);
4. th at the Scrutiny Panels should exercise discretion in the use ofthe Call- in' mechanism.Therewas a riskof overloading the work of the Panels with a massivebureaucracy. Scrutiny couldbecome too reactive' rather than proactive'. Scrutiny Panels should not be obliged to examine everypiece of legislation butshouldbe able tochoosewhere to focus their attention. The delegation visitingBirmingham City Council would belooking at this issue in practice (2.18);
5. t he Committee  requested the  Assistant Legal Adviser  to  research  the position  in  the United Kingdom with  regard  to  the  powers of Select Committees in respect of access toinformation, parliamentary privilege and questioning of witnesses (2.26) and Data Protection (2.27). The Committee recognised  that  it  would be preferable  to  obtain information  on a  co- operative basis.However,itwas agreed that Scrutiny Panels shouldhave the strong unequivocal powers from the outset in order to establish the importance of Scrutiny in the new systemofgovernment;
6. th at further consideration wasneeded to clarify the respective rolesofthe Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Audit and Scrutiny Panels. Deputy R.G.Le Hérissier had recently attended a meetingofthe Public Accounts Committee  and  Auditor General  Working Party.  It appeared that  that Working Party  had already  developed  firm ideas on the  respective functions together with alternative proposals on the membership of the PAC. The Committee was concerned that  there  would  be considerable

overlap between the three functions and agreed that further consultation with the

Working Party on these issues was required. The Committee also requested that  further  information  be  obtained  on  the  operation  of  the  United Kingdom Audit Office (2.34);

7. t hat  Scrutiny  would also  be concerned  with  certain non-governmental bodies whoneverthelessreceived a significantdegreeofpublic funding and delivered public services. Examples included Housing trusts, ACET, as well as Family NursingandHome Care (Jersey) Inc. (2.56);
8. th at anelementof flexibility and choice shouldbe retained in anysystem of cyclical reviewof policy areas. Departments shouldnotbereviewed unnecessarily accordingly to a rigid programme(2.63);
9. t h at all States members,includingmembersof the CouncilofMinisters, should participate in the election ofmembersto Scrutiny Panels(2.69);
10. t h at a paragraph should beinserted reflecting theCommittee's view that resources should be made available to enable Scrutiny Panels to obtain separate legal advice where necessary.

The Committee agreed to delegate the final re-drafting of the Scrutiny Section of the Report to the President, Deputy Le Hérissier and the Deputy Greffier of the States.

Deputy J-A Bridge undertook to check the latest draft versions of the sections on Facilities and Remuneration.

Guidance to A4.  The  Committee,  with  reference  to  its Act  No.  A3  of  17th  September  2002, States members endorsed a draft letter, prepared by the President to be sent to all States members and on fair Chief  Officers  regarding  fair  representation  of  all  candidates  during  the  election representation of period.

candidates during

election period.

1240/9/1(113)

Ex.Off.

Date of next A5.  The  Committee  confirmed  the  date  of  its  next  meeting  to  take  place  on meeting Wednesday, 2nd October 2002, commencing at 3 p.m. in the Halkett Room, Morier

House. The agenda would focus on general business items.