States Minutes 5th April 2005

THE STATES assembled on Tuesday, 5th April 2005 at 9.30 a.m. under

the Presidency of the Bailiff ,

Sir Philip Bailhache .

His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor,

Air Chief Marshal Sir John Cheshire, K.B.E., C.B., was present.

All members were present with the exception of –

S e nator Jean Amy Le Maistre – out of the Island

S e nator Stuart Syvret – out of the Island

S e nator Terence Augustine Le  Sueur – out of the Island

S e nator Richard Joseph Shenton – ill

P e ter Nicholas Troy – Deputy of St. Brelade – out of the Island J e nnifer-Anne Bridge, Deputy of St. Helier – out of the Island

G e offrey Peter Southern , Deputy of St. Helier – out of the Island C a rolyn Fiona Labey , Deputy of Grouville – out of the Island

Prayers

Committee Secretariats' Network – welcome

The Bailiff , on behalf of all members, welcomed representatives of the Committee Secretariats' Network representing the scrutiny function in other U.K. jurisdictions to the Chamber.

Mr. Carl-Wilhelm Stenhammar, World President-elect, Rotary International – welcome

The Bailiff , on behalf of all members, welcomed Mr.  Carl-Wilhelm Stenhammar, World President-elect, Rotary International, Mrs.  Monica Stenhammar, accompanied by Mr.  David Pike, District Governor of Rotary, to th Chamber.

Tribute to the late Pope John Paul II

The Dean, on behalf of all members, paid tribute to the late Pope John Paul II, and a minute's silence was observed as a mark of respect.

Subordinate legislation tabled

The following enactment was laid before the States, namely –

Shipping (Survey and Certification) (Jersey) Order 2005. R&O 18/2005. Harbours and Airport Committee.

Matters presented

The following matters were presented to the States –

Administrative Decisions (Review) (Jersey) Law 1982, as amended: report of the R.C.19/2005. Administrative Appeals Panel for 2003 – 2004.

Presented by the Privileges and Procedures Committee.

Draft Waste Management Strategy: Shadow Scrutiny Panel Report. S.R.4/2005. Presented by Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St.  Saviour.

Migration: monitoring and regulation (P.25/2005) – comments. P.25/2005. Presented by the Finance and Economics Committee. Com.

Draft Competition (Jersey) Law 2005 (Appointed Day) Act 200- (P.37/2005): P.37/2005. comments. Com. Presented by the Finance and Economics Committee.

THE STATES ordered that the said reports be printed and distributed. Matters noted – land transactions

THE STATES noted an Act of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 10th March 2005, showing that, in pursuance of Standing Orders relating to certain transactions in land, the Committee had approved –

(a )  as recommended by the Education, Sport and Culture Committee, the entering into of a Deed of

Arrangement with Mr.  Gregory Revell Smith and Mrs. Angela Jane Smith, née Mucklow, owners of Le Huriaux Cottage, La  Moye, St.  Brelade, in order, (as detailed in a report dated 11th October 2004 of th Director of Property Services), to ratify and confirm clauses created in the contract of purchase by Mr.  and Mrs.  Smith of Les Huriaux Cottage from Mr.  Nicholas Albert Le  Gallais, dated 23rd May 200 in relation to right of way and passage over the roadway or avenue belonging to Mr.  Le  Gallais in tha area in order to come and go from Les Huriaux Cottage to La  Rue de  la Moie–  Mr.  and Mrs. Smith being charged to pay their fair proportion of the maintenance and up-keep of the said road or avenue which they would use. It was recognised that, by contract dated 5th February 1993, Mr.  Le  Gallais had leased to the public, (amongst other property), the land and part of the roads or avenues and strips of land  described  in  the  aforementioned  report – which  formed  part  of  Les  Creux  Country  Park.  In addition, Mr.  and Mrs.  Smith would have the right to place, keep, maintain, up-keep, repair, replace and renew in the roadway or avenue (including the strips of land retained by Mr.  Le  Gallais and through which they had a right of way for all pipes, cables and conduits necessary to supply main services to Les Huriaux Cottage), with rights of access onto the roadway or avenue with or without workmen, tools and material in order to undertake such works – Mr.  and Mrs.  Smith being charged to undertake the work as quickly as possible to cause the least inconvenience possible to Mr.  Le Gallais and to put the affected areas in a good state after competing the works, with the right to Mr.  Le  Gallais to join to such service which  would  be  established  by  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Smith  and  contributing  his  fair  proportion  of  th maintenance and upkeep thereof where they would be used in common. The whole in perpetuity. Mr.  and Mrs. Smith were to be responsible for the publi'cs reasonable legal fees in connection with verifying and passing this transaction;

( b ) as recommended by the Housing Committee, the lease to Les Amis Incorporated of the property known

as Westley Lodge, St.  Saviour for a period of 3  years from 1st September 2004, terminable by eithe party serving 6 months notice in writing, at an annual rent of £6,152.64 payable monthly in advance subject to annual review in line with the percentage increase in the Jersey Retail Price Index. The occupiers of the premises were to be residentially qualified under Regulation 1(1)(a)-(h) of the Housing (Jersey) Law 1949, as amended, and the lessees would be responsible for contents insurance and would be expected to effect and maintain Public Liability Insurance cover for a sum of not less than £2  million. Each party was to be responsible for its own legal and professional fees arising from this transaction;

(c )  as  recommended  by  the  Harbours  and  Airport  Committee,  of  the  lease  to  OMG  Limited  of

accommodation at the Cargo Centre, Jersey Airport (Lettings Nos. B123, B124, B125, B126 and B127) for a period of one year from 1st January 2005, at an annual rent of £23,940;

( d ) as recommended by the Housing Committee –

(i )  th e entering into of a Deed of Arrangement with Mr.  Simon Hector and Mrs.  Carol Ann Hector, né

Griffin, in order to grant drainage rights to Mr.  and Mrs.  Hector as owners of the property known a Doordie', Trinity Hill, St.  Helier, for a consideration of£4,500 and the payment of all professional and legal fees incurred by the public – estimated to be in the region of £250 and £350 respectively; and,

( ii ) t he entering into of a Deed of Arrangement with PAR Developments Limited, in order to grant

drainage rights over public land at the property known as Doordie', Trinity Hill, St.  Helier, for a consideration of £4,500 and the payment of all professional and legal fees incurred by the public – estimated to be in the region of £350 and £250 respectively.

Matters noted – acceptance of tender

THE STATES noted an Act of the Finance and Economics Committee dated 24th March 2005, showing that, in pursuance of Rule  5 of the Public Finances (General) (Jersey) Rules 1967, as amended, the Committee had noted that the Education, Sport and Culture Committee, by Act dated 23rd February 2005, had accepted a fixed-price tender from Charles Le  Quesne (1956) Limited for the construction of a new Sports Facility on the former Hautlieu School site, St.  Saviour at a cost of£3,185,000, in a contract period of 64 weeks.

Matters lodged

The following matters were lodged "au Greffe" –

Draft Planning and Building (Amendment No.  2) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.47/2005): P.47/2005. Amd. amendments.

Presented by Deputy C.J. Scott   Warr en of St.  Saviour.

Machinery of Government: relationship between the Parishes and the Executive P.66/2005. Amd. (P.66/2005) – amendment.

Presented by the Connétable of St.  Helier.

Island Plan 2002: amendment to policy H8 (Housing Development within the P.69/2005. Built-up Area).

Presented by Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St.  Clement, and referred to the

Environment and Public Services Committee.

St.  Helier Residents' Parking: reduction in cost of permits. P.70/2005. Presented by the Connétable of St.  Helier and referred to the Environment and

Public Services Committee.

Former School, Clearview Street, St.  Helier: proposed sale – P.49/2004 (re-issue) – withdrawn

THE STATES noted that, in accordance with Standing Order 22(3), the President of the Environment and Public Services Committee had instructed the Greffier of the States to withdraw the proposition regarding the Former School, Clearview Street, St.  Helier, (P.49/2004(re-issue) lodged "au Greffe" on 30th March 2004.

Dean of Jersey: cessation of membership of the States – P.49/2005 – withdrawn

THE STATES noted that, in accordance with Standing Order 22(3), Senator E.P.   Vibert had instructed the Greffier of the States to withdraw the proposition regarding the Dean of Jersey: cessation of membership of the States – P.49/2005 lodged "au Greffe on 15th March 2005.

Arrangement of public business for the present meeting

THE STATES confirmed that the following matter lodged "au Greffe" would be considered at the present meeting –

Draft Data Protection (Amendment) (Jersey) Law 200-. P.50/2005. Lodged: 15th March 2005.

Finance and Economics Committee.

Removal of material from website – personal statement by Senator E.P. Vibert Senator Edward Philip Vibert made a personal statement in the following terms –

" I  consider that P.68/2005, due to be debated this morning, to be a complete waste of the time of this Assembly when there is so much important work to be done.

W  hatever decision this Assembly makes on this issue, I will not abide by that decision if it means that I have to give up my rights of free speech; and that is what it will mean if the Assembly carries this proposition.

T h e place for these disputes to be settled is in the Courts. If either the Director of the JFSC or his Deputy

believes that I have defamed them it is open – as it is for any citizen – to seek relief through the Court system. In my opinion, any attempt to alter this situation through this Assembly is an affront to democracy and justice and I will not be part of it.

 W  hen the item comes to be debated I will leave the Chamber and go and do some real work for my

constituents which awaits me, rather than take part in a useless debate.

I take this opportunity to flag to the Assembly that I will be lodging a proposition calling for a full public

inquiry into the activities of the JFSC, which are largely uncontrolled by the States."

Arrangement of public business for the present meeting

THE  STATES  rejected  a  proposition  of   Deputy  Jeremy  Laurence  Dorey  of  St.  Helier  that  the  Economic Development Committee be requested to withdraw the proposition regarding removal of material from website: Senator E.P.   Vibert , (P.68/2005 lodged"au Greffe" on 22nd March 2005).

Members present voted as follows –

POUR: 22 CONTRE: 22 ABSTAIN: 0

Senator W. Kinnard Senator L. Norman Senator P.V.F. Le  Claire Senator  F.H. Walker Senator E.P.   Vibert Senator P.F. Routier Connétable of St. Mary Senator M.E.   Vibert Connétable of St. Peter Senator P.F.C. Ozouf Connétable of St. Clement Connétable of St. Martin Connétable of Trinity Connétable of St. Ouen

Connétable of Grouville Connétable of St. John

Deputy R.C. Duhamel (S) Deputy A. Breckon (S)

Deputy of St.  Martin

Deputy of St.  John

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains (C) Deputy J.L. Dorey (H)

Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en (S) Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier (S) Deputy J.A. Martin (H)

Deputy J.A. Bernstein (B) Deputy S.C. Ferguson (B) Deputy of St Peter

Deputy G.W.J. de  Faye (H)

Connétable of St. Saviour Connétable of St. Brelade Connétable of St. Helier Connétable of St. Lawrence Deputy of Trinity

Deputy J.J. Huet (H) Deputy T.J. Le  Main (H) Deputy M.F. Dubras (L) Deputy F.G. Voisin (L) Deputy L.J. Farnham (S) Deputy J.B. Fox (H) Deputy of St.  Mary

Deputy of St.  Ouen

Deputy M.A. Taylor (C) Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)

There being an equality of votes, the Bailiff , in accordance with convention, exercised his casting vote against the proposition.

Arrangement of public business for the next meeting on 19th April 2005

THE STATES confirmed that the following matters lodged "au Greffe" would be considered at the next meeting on 19th April 2005, and, adopting a proposition of the President of the Policy and Resources Committee, agreed that they would be considered in the following order –

Economic Growth Plan.

Lodged: 1st March 2005. Economic Development Committee.

Equalisation of Welfare.

Lodged: 20th April 2004.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St.  Clement.

Equalisation of Welfare (P.57/2004): comments. Presented: 25th May 2004.

Policy and Resources Committee.

Equalisation of Welfare (P.57/2004): comments. Presented: 25th May 2004.

Employment and Social Security Committee.

Machinery of Government: relationship between the Parishes and the Executive.

Lodged: 22nd March 2005.

Policy and Resources Committee.

Machinery of Government: relationship between the Parishes and the Executive (P.66/2005) – amendment.

Lodged: 5th April 2005.

Presented by the Connétable of St.  Helier.

Land in St.  Lawrence near Tesson Mill and Field  621, St.  Brelade: rezoning. Lodged: 22nd February 2005.

Deputy J.A. Hilton of St.  Helier.

P.38/2005. P.57/2004. P.57/2004. Com.

P.57/2004. Com. (2)

P.66/2005. P.66/2005. Amd.

P.33/2005. (re-issue)

Land in St.  Clement: rezoning. Lodged: 1st March 2005.

Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St.  Clement.

Draft Planning and Building (Amendment No.  2) (Jersey) Law 200-. Lodged: 15th March 2005.

Environment and Public Services Committee.

Draft Planning and Building (Amendment No.  2) (Jersey) Law 200- (P.47/2005): amendments.

Lodged: 5th April 2005.

Deputy C.J. Scott   Warr en of St.  Saviour.

Draft Education (Provided Schools) (Jersey) Regulations 200-. Lodged: 1st March 2005.

Education, Sport and Culture Committee.

Draft Health Care (Registration) (Amendment) (Jersey) Law 2002 (Appointed Day) Act 200-.

Lodged: 15th March 2005.

Health and Social Services Committee.

Draft Health Care (Registration) (No.  2) (Jersey) Regulations 200-. Lodged: 15th March 2005.

Health and Social Services Committee.

Rent Control Tribunal: appointment of members. Lodged: 22nd March 2005.

Housing Committee.

Draft Extradition (Designated Territories) (Jersey) Regulations 200-. Lodged: 22nd March 2005.

Policy and Resources Committee.

P.40/2005. P.47/2005. P.47/2005. Amd.

P.34/2005. P.45/2005.

P.46/2005. P.52/2005. P.53/2005.

Inquiry into the extent of human rights compliance – question and answer (Tape No. 1017)

The Deputy of St.  Martin tabled the following written question of Senator Frank Harris on Walker , President of the Policy and Resources Committee –

" F ollowing the tabling by Austin Mitchell M.P. of an Early Day Motion calling for an inquiry to determine the extent to which the Channel Islands are compliant with human rights obligations, would the President advise whether the Island authorities acknowledged the M.P.'s interest, whether the Committee supports this call and, if not, whether the Committee considers that an inquiry of this type for Jersey should be undertaken by the States?"

The President of the Policy and Resources Committee tabled the following written answer –

" T he early day motion tabled by Mr.  Mitchell M.P., proposed –

th a t the governments in the [Channel] Islands remain reluctant to achieve, still less enforce, even minimal standards of human rights compliance and that the inhabitants of these British territories are denied the protection of international treaty and convention obligations '

T h ese statements are so obviously untrue that I have no hesitation in absolutely refuting them. To suggest that the residents of Jersey are denied access to even minimal standards of human rights is simply unbelievable.

The facts are that Jersey has been signed up to and compliant with many international conventions and treaties on

human rights for many years. Jersey has been included in the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms since 1953; the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination since 1969; the European Convention against Torture since 1988; the UN Convention on Civil and Political Rights and the UN Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights since 1976, and I could go on.

M  r.  Mitchell's misguided motion was opposed by the United Kingdom Government. My response to the

Deputy of St. Martin is also an unequivocalno' – I will not acknowledge that a member of the British Parliament has a legitimate interest in the supervision of Jersey's international obligations on human rights no' – I do not support the call for an enquiry of any sort by the U.K. government into a matter that is within the competence of Jersey's authorities and no' – I do not support a call for an enquiry by the States on this matter."

Ongoing costs associated with the steam clock – question and answer (Tape No. 1017)

The Deputy of St.  John tabled the following written question of Senator Frank Harris on Walker , President of the Policy and Resources Committee –

" W ould the President advise members of the amount spent by the Waterfront Enterprise Board Ltd. on maintenance of the steam clock since it was commissioned, giving a breakdown of the running cost year on year, together with details of the annual cost of maintaining the garden area near and around the steam clock?"

The President of the Policy and Resources Committee tabled the following written answer –

" T he steam clock and the surrounding public gardens and landscaped areas were designed to compliment the Maritime Museum and were commissioned in 1997.

T h e original concept was determined working in partnership with the Jersey Heritage Trust which, in addition

to the public art, was keen to establish an outdoor area in which static outdoor displays could be mounted by the Trust from time to time. The bulk of the expenditure was funded by a grant form the Tourism Investment Fund with the balance being funded by the Waterfront Enterprise Board Limited (WEB) who also managed the project.

T  he surrounding gardens were commissioned mindful of the above objectives but also in a long-term yet

temporary format in anticipation of further development of the site in the future. As a consequence of this, trees are planted in free standing planting boxes.

W  hen the project was commissioned the intention was for the Jersey Heritage Trust to take possession on

completion and to assume responsibility for ongoing maintenance and running costs but in the event this never occurred and WEB took on these commitments by default.

A  s might be expected the maintenance of a steam engine, which was fabricated based upon historically

authentic components, is a fairly specialised and labour intensive affair. The average annual costs of maintaining the steam clock in the period from 1998 to the end of 2004 was £14,000 per annum.

T h e running costs in the same period averaged £6,000 per annum.

T h e annual cost of maintaining the garden areas was £7,750 per annum.

I n the period a further £17,354 was spent on landscaping and planter repairs and replacements and from the

year 2000 onwards the provision of a Christmas tree and other festive decorations.

M  embers will be aware that the fundamental spending review led to a decision to phase out grants to WEB by

the end of 2006. In response to this the Company has taken a number of steps to reduce its estate management

expenditure in ways that have the least possible impact on the provision of public service and amenity in the areas under its administrative control.

T h e review coincided with the specialist steam engine maintenance company used by WEB to date going out

of business and so the steam clock was one high cost facility that was carefully reviewed. In essence the steam workings have been replaced with electrical fittings designed to provide the same functionality including the blowing of steam' at the appropriate times of the day. The cost of these fittings amounted to £2,717.

T h e result of these changes is to leave the public with essentially the same amenity but to reduce the annual

maintenance costs by an estimated £16,000 per annum."

Agreement between the former Planning and Environment Committee and Falles Hire Cars Limited – question and answer (Tape No.  1017)

The Deputy of St.  John tabled the following written question of Senator Philip Francis Cyril Ozouf , President of the Environment and Public Services Committee –

" W ould the President inform members whether any agreement exists between the former Planning and Environment Committee and Falles Hire Cars Limited such that a site in the Phase II La Collette reclamation would be provided for a garage/workshop in exchange for an agreement that the company would not build at Rue des Prés under the bad neighbour policy, and, if so, would he inform members –

( a ) whether this agreement still exists and whether it is transferable?

(b) what size and value the site at La  Collette II has?

( c ) whether the Committee is reviewing this agreement? and,

( d ) whether the site at La  Collette II, which has been designated for use for garages/workshops, would be

suitable for use as a coach depot?"

The President of the Environment and Public Services Committee tabled the following written answer –

" I n September 2000, the States agreed to lease an area of land no less than 30,974  square  feet at La  Collett Phase II to Falles Holdings Limited for a period of 42  years at an appropriate rental, to be agreed with the Finance and Economics Committee, on completion of the infilling and infrastructure works.

 S  ubsequently, the States agreed to rezone La Collette II for industrial use. At the time, the States were

informed that the area would not be available for 3 to 4 years.

F a lles Holdings Limited entered into the agreement in good faith and agreed to build residential units on land

in their ownership at Rue des Pres and avoid a potentially bad neighbour use by not erecting their proposed building for hire car storage and maintenance. Professional and other fees already expended by the company were to be taken into account when agreeing a rental for the land on which the company would be building at La  Collette.

T h e infilling of La  Collette has not been as quick as had been expected and it is anticipated that will not now

be completed before 2010 with the infrastructure work following that. In August of last year, a meeting between the President, Deputy Scott - Warr en, officers of the Committee and representatives of Falles Holdings Limited was held to discuss the situation which the Company now found itself in without a site for its proposed vehicle storage building for a further number of years.

I t was agreed that the Committee through its Department of Property Services would try to identify an

alternative site to lease to the Company. A site has been identified as a possibility and Falles Holdings Limited is

currently in the process of producing a scheme for its required facility on that particular site for further consideration by the Committee as to its acceptability.

T h e infrastructure and the layout of available sites at La  Collette  II, apart from the Connex Bus Workshop

and Garage which was connected to existing services, have not yet been designed or approved. There is no reason to suggest that a coach depot could not be included at La  Collette  II, depending on meeting othe known needs but no progress can be made on the development of further sites in that area until infilling is complete and design of the infrastructure is complete."

Transfer of certain responsibilities in relation to historic buildings from the Environment and Public Services Committee to the Jersey Heritage Trust – question and answer (Tape No. 1017)

The Deputy of St.  John tabled the following written question of Senator Philip Francis Cyril Ozouf , President of the Environment and Public Services Committee –

" F ollowing the recent announcement of the transfer of certain responsibilities in relation to historic buildings from the Committee to the Jersey Heritage Trust, would the President give members precise details of the transfer and explain why the States were not asked to approve the transfer?"

The President of the Environment and Public Services Committee tabled the following written answer –

" T he transfer in question relates to certain aspects of the Committee's obligations in respect of the built heritage, specifically advice on the registration (or listing) of properties, and the raising of awareness on heritage matters. It took effect from January of this year. The services to be provided by the Trust work are the subject of a Service Level Agreement between the two parties and members are welcome to have a copy of the agreement if they wish. This transfer is a response to the Committee's objective of delivering greater efficiency and improving quality of service with the department, which in this case will be achieved by means of a productive partnership with an established heritage body. The Committee has not delegated any decision-making powers to the Trust, nor are development control processes in any way affected. The Committee continues to fund these services.

T h e services transferred are, essentially –

M a n a g ing the register of historic buildings and sites (around 4,000  entries, including archaeological sites

and occupation structures) and providing detailed information to the Committee in support of the registration of individual properties, should objections be raised by owners or other parties.

M a n a g ing and developing the associated database of information in relation to the Island's heritage, and

conducting further research where appropriate to develop our knowledge.

Im  p ro v ing public access to the above database.

D e a li n g with enquiries from the public about the historic buildings register and the Island's built heritage.

D e v e lo ping strategies in conjunction with the Committee to promote an awareness and understanding of

the built heritage.

D e v e lo ping strategies to promote an awareness of archaeological matters.

T h e Committee will retain overall responsibility for decisions on the registration of individual buildings and

sites and will continue to make all statutory decisions. The Trust will have no involvement in development control matters and will act in an advisory capacity.

T h e key benefits of the transfer are seen to be –

Im  p ro v ement in the transparency in the processes involved in the registration of buildings.

D e v e lo pment and improvement in the management of, and public access to, this unique database.

D e ta c hment of the registration processes from the development control environment, which had

previously generated a perceived conflict of interest.

T he Jersey Heritage Trust will work in close co-operation with the Jersey Heritage Advisory Panel, a

voluntary advisory body established by the Committee to monitor standards in the registration of heritage properties. The Panel comprises representatives of the Société Jersiaise, the National Trust for Jersey, the Association of Jersey Architects, the Jersey Building & Allied Trades Employers Federation, and the Trust.

T h e operation of the Service Level Agreement will be managed by a senior officer in the Department and

incorporates reviews on a three-monthly basis and a formal annual report.

A  s this transfer of functions represents a relatively minor adjustment in the way in which one aspect of the

Committee's responsibilities are delivered, the Committee did not consider it necessary to seek the approval of the Assembly."

Public Sector Re-organisation: Five Year Vision for the Public Sector – question and answer (Tape No. 1017)

Deputy Gerard Clifford Lemmens Baudains of St.  Clement tabled the following written question of Senator Frank Harris on Walker , President of the Policy and Resources Committee –

" The  Committee's  proposition  on Public  Sector  Re-organisation:  Five  Year  Vision  for  the  Public

Sector' (P.58/2004) was adopted by the States on 26th May 2004.

( a ) Paragraph  (a) of the proposition stated that the purpose of the re-organisation was to seek savings of

£20 million andvalue improvements' of £9 million per annum. Will the President advise whether the offer of final salary pensions and index linking of them to new employees will be reviewed as part of those savings and, if not, why not?

(b ) Paragraph (d) enabled a reduction of up to 300 posts to be achieved by various means and the

accompanying report stated, at paragraph  4, thatit is expected that the public sector will reduce by approximately 300 posts over a 5 year period'.

I n a n s wers to oral questions on 1st March 2005, the President intimated that there might be no post

reductions. Would the President therefore advise –

(i ) w hether the Committee has abandoned this goal?

(i i ) h ow the Committee justifies an expanding public sector headcount at a time of reducing private

sector workforce and possible population reduction also?

( c ) Under the Red tape reform' initiative, Committees have recently been seeking examples from interested

parties of areas where bureaucracy might be reduced.

 D  oes the Committee accept that asking people to, effectively, examine their own efficiency is unlikely to

achieve any real benefit towards achieving either the savings or value improvement goals in the visioning proposals and will the Committee therefore consider using part of the £9.4 million set aside for achieving the proposals to employ external persons to undertake efficiency/streamlining auditing?"

The President of the Policy and Resources Committee tabled the following written answer –

"(a) I confirm that the public sector pension scheme is not being considered in the context of the £20 million

efficiency savings that have been highlighted in P.58/2004. However, I am able to assure the Deputy that the financing of the Public Employees Contributory Retirement Scheme is kept under constant review. In this context, an actuarial review is due to be held this year and the Policy and Resources Committee will be looking closely at the outcome of that review.

I t is important for the Deputy to note that index linking is not guaranteed for new employees. Whilst the

policy of the Committee of Management of the Scheme has been to seek to pay pension increases in line with adjustments in the Retail Price Index, this will only occur where employer and employee representatives agree that the funding of the scheme is sufficient to allow this to happen.

2. (i) First, it isimportant to note that I did notsuggest in myresponseof 1st March that no post savings would arise as a result of P.58/2004. What I pointed out was that the total number will become clearer as the ChangeProgramme is implementedand that it isenvisaged that they will not exceed 300.However, I confirm that theprincipal policy objective is to deliver £20 million in savings from public sector expenditure over a 5 year period.

( ii ) Recent increases in headcount can be attributed to the front-line services of Health, Education, Police

and Prison where specific service requirements led to increases in staff. These increase have, however, already been partially offset by reductions elsewhere. The Change Programme described in (i) will result in further post reductions in back office and other non-frontline operational staff. In this connection, the Committee's policy continues to be one of reducing posts by means other than compulsory redundancy wherever possible, for example through natural wastage.

3. The Red Tape Reform project isone facet oftheprogramme to improve the efficiency ofthe public sector. In accordance with P.134/2004,the project is aimedatreforming legislation and regulation, although,during the consultation process,when the public and organisations were invited to highlightareaswhichcouldbe improved, issues unrelated to regulatory reform were also raised. In parallel, public sector employeeswere also encouraged to highlightareasofunnecessarybureaucracy and inefficiency. The response has been good and the suggestions are currently being considered anddealt with as part ofthewiderdriveforimproved efficiency.

A  s well as internal staff seconded from States departments, the Change Programme, which is responsible for

reviewing processes and performance across the organisation, already has access to the services of external consultants with specific expertise where necessary."

Oral questions

1. Deputy G.C.L. BaudainsofSt. Clementof the Presidentof the EconomicDevelopmentCommittee:

" W ith reference to the websites owned by Senator E.P. Vibert , and to P.68/2005 lodgedau Greffe' by the Committee, would the President give details of the research, if any, the Committee carried out to verify or disprove the content that the Committee alleges causes concern?"

D  e puty F. G. Voisin (President of the Economic Development Committee):

" A s President of the Committee, I inspected the evidence to rebut the allegations as provided by the Director General and Deputy Director General and was satisfied as to its authenticity. The evidence provided included a letter from the Director General's previous employer and a letter from the Housing Department confirming that the Deputy Director General's housing arrangements were legal. The evidence provided by both of the above, including the letters, are reproduced in the report and members are able to make up their own minds. It should be noted that at no time has Senator   Vibert challenged the validity of the evidence provided by the Director General and Deputy Director General."

1(a) Senator E.P. Vibert :

" W ould the President of the Committee actually confirm, or is he aware, that I have been refused permission to ask a number of questions of him relative to all of these matters in this House by the Chair?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" N o, I am not aware of that. I was aware that the Senator had tried to ask other questions, but not questions relating to the evidence provided by the Director General and the Deputy Director General."

1(b) Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

" I take it from the President's answers that he is stating that his Committee has actually done no independent research of their own; they have relied upon the submissions of the Jersey Financial Services Commission (JFSC)?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" W as the question would I confirm that?' "

D e puty G.C.L. Baudains:

" Y es."

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" Y es, I can confirm that we relied on the officers, yes."

(c) The Deputy of St.  John:

" G iven the President's reply, Sir, I have got real concerns. Would the President explain, is it usual that he relies on, in this case – I suppose you would call it – a quango to get his answers from instead of doing the research or getting his officers to do the research themselves in the respective area?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" I s the Deputy suggesting that the Director General and Deputy Director General forged the letters?"

1(d) Senator P.V.F. Le Claire:

" T he President intimated that the advice he received from the Housing Department in relation to the housing sale was legal. Could I ask the President where the Housing Department received its legal advice and how was that given?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" I think the letter from the Housing Department is attached to the report for all to see. The letter clearly states that the arrangements that the Jersey Financial Services Commission and the Deputy Director General entered into were perfectly normal and consistent with other arrangements that have been entered into by a number of other employers."

1(e) Senator P.V.F. Le Claire:

" T hat was not my question, and I have not taken the trouble to read the proposition that I am not going to take part in today. I asked a direct question. I asked a direct question, a supplementary question, about a question that has been raised in the States and I would like an answer. I ask again, where did the Law Officers from the Housing Committee, or where did the Law Officers give the Housing Committee the legal advice which the President is relying upon?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" I cannot comment on whether the individual that wrote the letter from the Housing Department took legal advice before writing that letter. I would imagine that he knows what he is talking about."

1(f)  Senator E.P.   Vibert :

" W ould the President confirm that actually the decision that was given regarding permission regarding housing was actually permission that they were not entitled to give, bearing in mind that the people involved were not public servants according to the President of the Committee, but according to the –---"

T h e Bailiff :

" S enator, I am sorry, but that question is out of order because it does not fall within the responsibility of the President of the Economic Development Committee."

S e nator E.P.   Vibert :

" I am asking the question relative to the main question. I am asking a supplementary of the main question."

T h e Bailiff :

" Y ou may be, but the Standing Orders apply to all supplementary questions and it must be a matter for which the President of the Economic Development Committee has responsibility. He has no responsibility for decisions of the Housing Committee."

S e nator E.P.   Vibert :

" T he question I actually had not finished the question when you interrupted me. I was putting the question, or I was about to put the question."

T h e Bailiff :

" W ell, you were out of order so far, so perhaps you had better start again."

S e nator E.P.   Vibert :

" W ould the President actually confirm that the permission that was granted to the Deputy Executive Director regarding housing was only a decision that could be made if that person was not a public servant and, bearing in mind the President of Policy and Resources has frequently referred to them as public servants, did he investigate that situation?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" F irst of all, the permission granted to the Deputy Director General would have been permission granted by the Housing Department, I believe. The other issue relating to the status of the Deputy Director General, I believe that the Deputy Director General is not a civil servant, but I have referred to them as public officers' simply because they are officers that are carrying out duties prescribed by this Assembly."

1(g) Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

" Would the President confirm that the websites that are under discussion here are actually called

www.jerseyfsc.co.uk and www.jerseyjfsc.com? Would he also confirm that the official website of the Jersey Financial Services Commission is www.jerseyfsc.org, and would he agree with me that all this issue of advice is very interesting but actually what is the most important issue here is a member of this Assembly using website names attempting to pass them off as the official Jersey Financial Commission (JFC) website?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" I can confirm that the names that the Senator describes, the names of the websites can be confused, easily confused, with that of the website operated by the Jersey Financial Services Commission, which ends in .org as opposed to .com, and I think the second issue that the Senator raises is going to be a matter for debate later on this morning."

1(h) Deputy T.J. Le Main:

" C an I just ask the President that he will confirm that the consents given by the Housing Department to the Jersey Financial Services Commission (JFSC) in relation to this are exactly the same as given to the private sector, the public services sector as well?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" I can confirm, yes."

1(i)  Senator E.P.   Vibert :

" W ould the President confirm that in fact, if the Jersey Financial Services Commission (JFSC) wished to have registered the websites – I cannot remember them – that the President of Environment and Public

Services referred to, that is their own fault for failing to register and anybody in a free country is entitled to

register those if nobody else has registered them?"

D e puty F. G. Voisin:

" T hat is correct."

2. Senator P.V.F.Le Claire ofthePresidentoftheEnvironmentandPublicServicesCommittee:

" I n light of possible difficulties over the relocation of vehicles belonging to Tantivy Blue Coach, will the President outline what steps, if any, are being taken by the Committee to identify suitable alternatives for these vehicles that form an integral part of Jersey's public transportation system?"

S e nator P.F.C. Ozouf (President of the Environment and Public Services Committee):

" T he Committee has only just learned that the application for relocating vehicles belonging to Tantivy Blue Coach is to be withdrawn. Whilst there was a live application, there is an established process to follow and it would have been inappropriate to comment on any alternative sites whilst that proposal remained undecided. The Committee does not normally offer its services to act as a broker or agent to find alternative sites for applicants in the event that an application proves unsuccessful. However, the Committee is reviewing the Island Plan and, as part of that review, is considering the long-term development of the La  Collette 2 site. The rate of infill, however, has slowed in the past two years and there is unfortunately no infrastructure on site at present. It is not possible to provide a timetable as to when exactly development of this site could be considered."