How can the appointment of a Third Sector co-ordinator be justified

3.10   Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding the appointment of a Third Sector Co-ordinator.

How does the Minister justify the appointment of a Third Sector Co-ordinator in the light of other bodies performing such work and the C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review) driven cuts to bodies like Family Nursing and Home Care?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Funding of the £120,000 for 2 years' activity has been committed to the third sector in order to enable the establishment of a dedicated development forum and the appointment of an appropriate suitable qualified official officer to deal with that. The funding will take the form of a grant, which will be held in Health and Social Services, spread over 3 financial years using money transferred from Treasury and Resources underspends. It has been made available separately at my request from my department to reflect our commitment and the whole of the Council of Ministers commitment to developing, recognising the role of the third sector. This a third sector initiative and not a States initiative. It is driven by local charities themselves that they recognise the need to support the professionalism of the sector and I would say for 2 key reasons. The first is to ensure that our Island has a vibrant active third sector which continues to provide and promote and develop our civil society. The second is to enhance standards so that local agencies and organisations are even better placed than they have been in the past to tender for services, attract grant aid, to lobby the States and to thrive in our changing economic cycle.

The Deputy Bailiff :

It is over 90 seconds, Senator. In fact, if I may say so, although 90 seconds is noted as being the maximum, it is not a mandatory response time.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

But, Sir, may I say, some of the questions in oral questions should be written questions, quite honestly, and it is unfair on Ministers to reply to questions when they cannot do them in a short time.

1. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister for Treasury and Resources indicate why he was not able, or the people responsible were not able, to use current structures and why, for example, it was not thought possible to advance the cause of the proposed Charities Commission as the vehicle for this co-ordination?

[15:45]

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

There is not a Charities Commission. There is an association of Jersey charities that does absolutely excellent work and we commend all of the charities and the Association of Jersey Charities for what they do. But this was an issue that was lobbied for by the third sector themselves. They wanted it and they petitioned to do it, it came out of discussions we had with the Comprehensive Spending Review and we have responded. I would have thought that this is a huge opportunity for this Assembly to send out a strong message of support for what some have called the Little Island Big Society, of which we are immensely proud and we think can be developed and recognised further.

2. Deputy D.J. De Sousa:

I wonder if the Minister would not consider that this is a duplication of the work that the Association of Jersey Charities does?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I see 3 Ministers who care passionately about the issue of the third sector shaking their heads; the Ministers for Health and Social Security and Housing. We all care passionately about the third sector and this is designed to assist it. No, it is not a duplication, if I may say. It is complementary and indeed the speaker at the launch of it last week was indeed the chairman of the Association of Jersey Charities who welcomes this initiative. The only people who perhaps do not welcome it are the bigger charities who simply do not need the support and encouragement of an overall co-ordinating body. I think this is a fantastic message. We talk too much about the full profit sector, we need to develop the not for profit sector too.

3. Senator B.E. Shenton:

I have been contacted by a number of people that give up a lot of time for charity work who are frankly quite angry about this appointment. They are concerned at the number of paid people entering the charity sector and also they do not like the idea of reporting to someone that is paid. Did you really consult with people that do unpaid charity work as opposed to the growing number of people that do paid charity work?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Senator's question is a very good one because I think that we need to be clear about what we are talking about here. There is the fantastic tradition of voluntary service in this Island, at the Parish level and everywhere else [Approbation] but there is also the issue of not for profit organisations co-ordinating voluntary work by professional staff. The questioner asks about family nursing and home care, they are all professionals who are paid. There are organisations like hospice that have paid, dedicated people and a fantastic voluntary contribution too. There are other organisations that are just simply volunteers, people like the Blind Society, Meals on Wheels, et cetera. We need to work with these organisations respecting that they are all different, some of them have professional staff but they are all not for profit, they are all part of what we now call the third sector and they need help, building capacity and our encouragement. I do not think we have encouraged them or helped them enough.

4. Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade :

The Minister will be aware that I wrote to him about this last week. Would the Minister concede that there is a possibility that this appointment, whoever he or she may be, has the potential to cause tension within the third sector?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

It has the potential, all posts have the potential of getting tension but the Minister for Health, the Minsiter for Social Security and I were at a fantastic event at the Bridge last week, the Constable of St. Saviour was there too. I think there were 90 organisations in Jersey represented. There are some small organisations that need the assistance of a paid co-ordinator. They do not have the capacity to lobby, to fundraise, the expertise in financial governance. This has the capacity for enormous good and I regret that there are perhaps, if I may say, some of the more well funded, well organised charities that almost regard this as a threat. This is about building capacity of our historically well deserved, well organised third sector and we can take it to a whole other level. I am happy to meet anybody that has got concerns of this issue.

5. Deputy G.P. Southern :

Does the Minister accept that the passionate commitment he was talking about was remarkably absent from the reduction of grants to third sector deliverers of £140,000 in the Comprehensive Spending Review part one by the Health and Social Services Department?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

The Comprehensive Spending Review is making allocations and decisions and there are going to be some organisations that, because they can perhaps see that funding come from the commercial sector, perhaps there are other priorities that health may have, there are going to be changes ongoing. The States provides valuable money for the third sector. I think the third sector has got a fantastic opportunity of delivering even more services for Jersey in the future and the States, I am not a Statist, I do not believe in nationalisation. We need to build capacity of the third sector and this will achieve and help do that.

6. Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement :

Would the Minister not agree with me that a strong sector forum, together with a new Charities Law, together with a Charities Commission is exactly the support that we as a Government should be giving to the third sector in our community?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Absolutely. We have done not enough to recognise, celebrate it and help it, and this co-ordinator, outside of the public sector, will do just that.

7. Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Two points. Could the Minister confirm that there is no preferred candidate; it will be open? Secondly, given he found underspends with which to do this, will he retract some of the cutbacks to other charities which have severely limited the capacity of which he is so proud to build?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

I think this post is probably one of the most exciting, rewarding and beneficial in Jersey. I think it is a fantastic opportunity for somebody that wants to take a modest salary for something that has the capability of doing so much good among voluntary and not for profit organisations. This Assembly will decide on allocations of not for profit organisations in the Business Plan. If any Member has any difficulty with Ministers proposals then obviously they will amend the Business Plan accordingly and we will debate it in this Assembly.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The question was not answered, there is no preferred candidate, can the Minister confirm?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :

Absolutely not, and it is not a ministerial appointment, it is going to be for the third sector forum to do their own recruitment and long live the independence of this organisation and the third sector forum. I hope they lobby the States and give us a heck of a hard time so that we do better for them in the future.

The Deputy Bailiff :

I do not think, Senator, "a heck of a hard time" is a parliamentary expression. Could I please add to Members who are listening to this debate outside the Chamber would they please return to the Assembly room because we at the minimum of numbers for staying quorate.

Deputy S. Power:

On a point of order, are Ministers allowed to ask Ministers questions?

The Deputy Bailiff :

There is nothing in Standing Orders that prevents Ministers from asking other Ministers questions. They usually do not do so but no doubt on this particular occasion the Minister who asked a question did so because of his particular interest in charitable matters. Deputy Higgins has a question to ask of the Minister for Economic Development.