Requested funding for the new healthcare facilities

23.10.17

3 Deputy L.J. Farnham of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding

requested funding for the new healthcare facilities (OQ.198/2023)

Will the Assistant Minister - on this occasion, I believe - provide a breakdown of the £52 million funding requested for the new healthcare facilities, as detailed in the proposed Government Plan 2024 - 2027?

Deputy S.M. Ahier of St. Helier North (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources -

rapporteur):

First, I would like to apologise to the Deputy for the absence of the Minister, and thank him for the opportunity to respond to his question. The £52 million set out in the proposed Government Plan 2024 is to carry out further work ahead of a separate report and proposition, which is to be brought to the Assembly in the summer of 2024. It will enable the programme team to carry out further work, including the design and plans of the acute hospital at Overdale to get to R.I.B.A. (Royal Institute of British Architects) Stage 4, including a planning application; work at Kensington Place, which will include some temporary use ahead of a permanent facility on the site; demolition and works to prepare for development of Overdale; costs of the central government project team; and a contingency to risk-proof the programme. The new healthcare facility programme team continues to follow strict governances, processes and monitor expenditure very carefully to minimise costs while delivering the necessary work to provide a robust proposition for debate by the States Assembly. The work carried out as part of the £52 million will follow Government of Jersey procurement processes. At this stage it is important that the breakdown of the £52 million remains confidential to ensure commercial sensitivity, value for money and quality outcomes.

1. Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I am not sure I accept the argument on confidentiality in a project that expends this amount of public money at such a high level, but I wanted to ask the Assistant Minister if he thought it was appropriate for the Treasury to be supporting an additional £52 million without knowing the total cost or the final cost of the whole project.

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Yes, I think it is very appropriate at this juncture. This is money that has obviously been incorporated within the Government Plan for the period of the first 6 months of next year. When the project is finally developed and brought to the States in a proposition, the full amount for the project should be determined and the Deputy will be able to review it at his leisure at that time.

2. Deputy L.V. Feltham :

In his answer the Minister referred to quality outcomes, so while he might not be able to provide a breakdown of what the £52 million is going to be spent on and how, could he provide a breakdown of the quality outcomes that will be delivered as a result of the £52 million expenditure?

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Unfortunately, as the Deputy presumes, I do not have that information on hand at present but I will certainly try to find it out and forward it to her.

3. Deputy L.V. Feltham :

As the Assistant Minister does not have the information to hand, and does not appear to be aware of that particular information, how can he assure the Assembly that what is going to be delivered under the £52 million expenditure will indeed be value for money?

[10:00]

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Thank you for the question. That is because I have total confidence in the team. We have all been working very closely, and I believe that they are progressing the plan very diligently and I have great confidence in what they are doing.

4. Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier Central :

The Assistant Minister mentioned production of a robust proposition. Can I ask the Assistant Minister to confirm whether that will produce a proposition that gives a clear picture of the complete project of all parts of the future hospital or will that just be sections of the project with some parts of it still in development?

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Yes, I believe that the project will cover the whole of the Overdale project and other projects moving forward, although the total cost of the Kensington Place facility and the Health Village at St. Saviour will obviously be in the preliminary stages at that time, so the full funding aspect for those projects may not be available in that proposition.

5. Deputy R.J. Ward :

Can I just confirm then that the robust proposition that will be brought will not include full funding for all of the hospital project?

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

I cannot say for certain that the whole project will be costed within that proposition at this current time.

6. Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Assistant Minister promised to circulate the figures to the Deputy . Could he circulate the figures to the whole of the Assembly, please, so we all know what is going on and not just one Member?

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Yes, of course; I thank the Deputy for his question. Yes, the question concerning the quality outcomes, I would be happy to circulate to all Members if I find that information out.

7. Deputy A. Howell :

Would the Deputy have not found it better perhaps to address her questions to the Minister for Infrastructure because I do believe the figures are in the Government Plan?

The Bailiff :

I am sorry, was that a question to the Minister?

Deputy A. Howell :

It is whether the question would have been better directed at the …

The Bailiff :

You are asking the Minister to say should the question have been directed elsewhere?

Deputy A. Howell : Yes.

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Yes, I thank the Deputy for her question. Yes, the question was directed to Treasury but then it was redirected to the Minister for Infrastructure, as the Deputy presumes would have been the appropriate place, but then at the request of Deputy Farnham it was redirected back to Treasury.

The Bailiff :

I presume there will be no supplemental on that, Deputy Howell .

8. Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I felt it was only right that, as Treasury are the custodians of our taxpayers’ money, the question was appropriately directed to that department. I just wanted to ask the Assistant Minister, as the Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources as he represents that department, does he believe it is appropriate and quite right for this Assembly to know the full costs of this project? The Government has presented a project of a multisite hospital with 4, possibly 5 sites, and I am alluding to his comments in the previous debate, we did not want to sign anything, sign a blank cheque without knowing the final cost of the outcome. Does he not believe on behalf of Treasury that it is only right for this Assembly, before embarking on spending many more tens of millions of pounds, to as soon as possible know and understand the full cost and timescale of what we are proposing? It is the biggest - possibly the biggest ever - piece of expenditure we will make.

Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Yes, I understand the concerns of the Deputy concerning the full cost of the project but of course the full cost of the Overdale project has been incorporated within the Government Plan. I understand that the Deputy has obviously been very keen over the years to ensure that the hospital project goes ahead at Overdale. I have as well, of course, and I think we are singing from the same song sheet. I think we both have to accept that this is the project that the Council of Ministers determined, and I am sure that we will get the hospital that we hoped that we would do at Overdale.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

Just to clarify, I did ask the Deputy if he agreed with the principle that this Assembly should know the full cost of the project before proceeding any further.

The Bailiff :

That was the thrust of the question, Deputy . Deputy S.M. Ahier :

Indeed, I apologise for missing out for the full cost. Yes, well I am sure that the full cost of the Overdale project will be incorporated, as it has been incorporated within the Government Plan. I believe that the full costing for the additional sites, obviously the Health Village at St. Saviour and the Kensington Place site, should be incorporated within the proposition which is brought in the summer of next year. I concur.

Deputy L.J. Farnham :

I thank the Assistant Minister for his straight answers.