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STATES OF JERSEY
Committee of Inquiry:
Reg's Skips Limited - Planning Applications
FRIDAY, 18th DECEMBER 2009
Members:
Mr. J. Mills, C.B.E. (Chairman) Mr. E. Trevor, M.B.E., F.R.I.C.S. Mr. R. Huson
Clerk:
Mr. I. Clarkson (States Greffe)
Witnesses:
Mr. C. Taylor (Owner of the property known as Heatherbrae Farm, St. John, and the intended landlord for Reg's Skips Limited)
[13:36]
Mr. J. Mills (Chairman):
Do please take a seat. Let us just repeat the rubrics for the afternoon session. We are not permitting any recording or pictures, and we are asking people to turn off mobile phones, please. We have to because there is actually an interference issue with phones that are on with this kit here. The proceedings will be transcribed and witnesses will be invited to check the relevant bits for accuracy and then they will be made available publicly when we produce our report. Mr. Taylor , would you wish to take an oath or take an affirmation?
Mr. C. Taylor (Owner of the property known as Heatherbrae Farm, St. John , and the intended landlord for Reg's Skips Limited):
I presume the oath is the correct one.
Mr. J. Mills:
I think it is. Can you just stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you swear that you will declare the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the present proceedings before this committee of inquiry, that you will do so without favour, hatred or partiality as you will answer to Almighty God at your peril?
Mr. C. Taylor : I do.
Mr. J. Mills:
Thank you. Welcome. Could you just start by telling us who you are so that there is a context for the written record?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. My name is Chris Taylor . I am a former dairy farmer from Heatherbrae Farm. I am the landlord ... former landlord of Reg's Skips. I have lived in the Parish of St. John since 1972 and I have owned, through the family, Heatherbrae Farm since 1980.
Mr. J. Mills:
Thank you. Okay. Well, I think what we should ask you to do is if you could ... as we asked the other witnesses this morning, if you could in your own words take us through your understanding of and involvement in Reg's Skips Limited from the point where you first became aware of them and they of you at some point in 2004-2005 through to the point where you sought and obtained the planning permission in May 2005 which enabled Reg's Skips to begin operations at Heatherbrae Farm. We are going to stop at that point as far as this hearing today is concerned. So, in a sense, over to you; if you could describe how you got to know about all this and what your take on the various issues is, and then we can ask you about that.
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. Well, just a bit of background on the farm itself, when we went to dry storage in 2002. I have 2 sheds, each approximately 10,000 square feet in size. One shed was let as a single unit and the other shed was split up into a number of smaller units. I was in the process of developing those smaller units and I was approached by Miss Emma Baxter, which was in my recollection the first thing that happened. She came to me and she asked if there was the possibility of Reg's Skips coming to Heatherbrae Farm. Her wording was interesting. Do not ask me why but it is one of those things that stuck in my mind. She said I would be doing the Planning Department a ... she was about to say "favour" because she started the F.
Mr. J. Mills:
"I" meaning you?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes, sorry. She stopped and said: "No, I will reword that. You would be getting Planning out of an awkward position if you were to consider taking Reg's Skips." She explained that Reg's Skips occupied a site in St. Peter quite legally. The problem they had was it was against a main road and it was unsightly. The reason they wanted it moved was purely from the ascetic point of view. It is quite a rare thing, I think, being asked to sort of help Planning or Planning coming to me for help, at least I had not had an unchequered career with Planning. There were one or 2 things I had possibly done that I should not have done, so having this approach of me being able to help Planning was most welcome on my part. We walked from where she parked, which was between the 2 buildings, south and around the bottom end. I showed her the area that was available and she looked at it and said: "Well, that to me looks great." We also looked at the silage clamp which at the time was occupied by Ged Sparks Plant Hire.
Mr. J. Mills:
Just describe what a clamp is for the benefit for the benefit of the committee, please.
Mr. C. Taylor :
The silage clamp was an area 60 foot wide, 80 foot long, with walls on 3 sides 10 feet high. It had a concrete base which had a sealed drainage system. It was for making silage, which is simply fermented grass. You pile grass in there until it ferments, and that is silage.
Mr. R. Huson:
Just to continue, having left the grass there, when it has done whatever it does, how do you move it or get rid of it?
Mr. C. Taylor :
You feed it to the cows.
Mr. R. Huson:
Straight from the silage clamp?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, it was loaded with a big yellow digger into a trailer, and the trailer would then mix it and feed it out. The grass was compressed to such an extent to get all the air out and we used to drive an 8-tonne digger over the top of the grass to compress it. So, you would have an 8-tonne digger 10-12 feet in the air compressing the grass down. So, when you took it out of the silage clamp it needed a certain amount of fluffing up to feed out to the cows. We fed the cows usually at 5.00 a.m. in the morning and 3.00 p.m. in the afternoon. The silage clamp at the time was occupied by Ged Sparks Plant Hire and I pointed out that that was occupied, but that was indicated to me that that would be preferred. When Miss Baxter left, she ... we agreed that Reg should then come up and meet me and I then met Reg Pinel over the next few days. He was very excited about the site. He felt it was excellent. I then wrote to ... I cannot remember whether she was Mrs. Ashworth or Miss Clapshaw at the time, but ...
Mr. J. Mills:
She became one after the other?
Mr. C. Taylor :
One after the other, yes. I wrote to her because she was the planning officer I had always dealt with, and explained that ... I believe this was the letter of 24th January 2005, and explained to her that Emma Baxter had been to see me. Under my 2002 change of use permit I had to get permission for each tenant that came, and I was applying for Reg's Skips to come. At that time I was not aware that Reg had made a pre-planning application because I was not aware that there was at that time to be a change of use. It was only in subsequent conversations that I learnt that there was to be a change of use.
Mr. J. Mills:
Sorry, can I just pause there? You said you were not aware that Mr. Pinel or Reg's Skips Limited had made an application for pre-application advice?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
So, what you are saying is that they ... once the site had been identified as a potential site, they, the company, not you, initially pursued it with Planning?
[13:45]
Mr. C. Taylor :
No. I wrote to Planning, my letter, just asking them permission.
Mr. J. Mills:
I see what you mean, yes, okay.
Mr. C. Taylor :
That was under the terms and conditions of my 2002 change of use: new tenant, write to them asking
permission.
Mr. J. Mills: I am with you.
Mr. C. Taylor :
Whether Planning took my letter as pre-planning advice or whether Mr. Pinel wrote to them I do not know, and I do not know what initiated that process. It was then at a later date, and from what I heard this morning towards the middle or end of March, that I then filled in a change of use planning application. I can remember being a little ... not quite upset but concerned about 2 issues. One was that it was a personal application and it was explained that it was change of use for Reg's Skips only and that if and when he left the area would revert back to dry storage. I sort of thought, well, they were doing something for just Reg's Skips as opposed to a general change of use. The other thing that narked me was that they asked me to pay £210 for the application when they had come to me in the first place. The application was put in. I then approached, shortly after the application went in, Miss Baxter to say that the silage clamp was available if she felt that that was the better area of the 2. The reason behind that was Ged Sparks Plant Hire originally was 4 people who had branched off from R.G. Romerils when they were taken over by A.A. Langlois. I have known 2 ... well, 3 of the drivers for a very long time and they said they were quite happy to move from the silage clamp to the other area because the rent was lower and it would be more suitable for them. So, I informed Miss Baxter, which is why if you look on the planning permissions it is stamped with the application area but the permit says the silage clamp area, just in case you picked up that there was a difference there. The permit came through at the end of May. My recollection actually was the beginning of June when I received it, and Reg came and started at the beginning of July.
Mr. J. Mills:
Okay, thank you. Just for clarification, after you wrote the letter of 24th January which initiated things, you then did not hear any more from Planning until they said: "Please submit an application"? In other words, your letter appears to have initiated the work they did towards the pre-planning advice?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. I heard nothing more until I was told that I would require change of use and would I fill in a change of use application form. I hesitate because I am not certain, but my recollection is that I went down to Planning and filled it in at the Planning office because obviously it is not a form that I have and so I would have had to have gone down to Planning anyway. I have a feeling I filled it in there and then at the time.
Mr. J. Mills:
Sorry, if I can just say, although we said there were no photographs, this gentleman, you are from the Jersey Evening Post?
Male Speaker: Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
So, you are at liberty to take a couple of what I call general photographs for your newspaper. Clarity here: the pre-planning advice was considered by the sub-committee on 9th March, as we heard this morning, and your planning application and your cheque, of which we have had a photocopy, are dated 10th March. Miss Baxter wrote to you, and perhaps she might have telephoned you as well, immediately after the sub-committee saying if you want to submit an application the way is now clear. Had you filled in or done the change of use application before then or did you do it at that very point,
can you remember?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Well, as I said earlier, I am fairly sure I went down to the Planning office and filled in a form down there, and it may have been or more than likely was as a result of a phone call.
Mr. J. Mills:
That is reflected in the documents we have, I think, yes.
Mr. C. Taylor :
Certainly ... I am just trying to think. I have not noticed a letter that was sent to me at or around that time by Miss Baxter saying: "Please come down and fill in an application form" but I think there was a letter saying that the pre-planning advice was positive and: "You may submit an application."
Mr. J. Mills:
We do have that letter, do we not, Ian? I think that is dated 10th March. I think we established that this morning. But you also took your actions for the application on 10th March. So, what I think you are saying is that she, after the sub-committee had met or the following morning, she gave you a phone call?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
And said: "Do you want to come down and get on with it?" and the evidence appears to bear that out.
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
That is very helpful. Thank you. Do you have ...?
Mr. E. Trevor:
Yes, I have a couple of questions. I would like to go back to when you were running the farm, Mr. Taylor . You ran the farm with the cows until what date?
Mr. C. Taylor : 1st May 2002.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So that is when you ceased trading. How long had Heatherbrae been engaged in dairy farming?
Mr. C. Taylor :
We purchased the farm in 1979, November or December 1979. It was my father who bought it. We ran it as a partnership until 1985 when I got married, and I then purchased his share of the partnership out and it was my farm after that. We built the original shed I think it was in October/November 1980.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Now, when you call it the original shed, which one is that? Is that the one that Mercury is in?
Mr. C. Taylor : No.
Mr. E. Trevor:
What do you call the original shed?
Mr. C. Taylor :
The original shed is the eastern shed, the furthest one.
Mr. E. Trevor:
That is where Reg's Skips is?
Mr. C. Taylor :
He was in part of that, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor: Right, okay.
Mr. C. Taylor :
That shed originally was 80 by 45 feet in size. It then went to 45 by 100, and then it went to 100 by 100 as we sort of expanded.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So, in effect, it had been as a working cattle dairy farm for ...?
Mr. C. Taylor : Twenty-odd years, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Now, can you give us a little bit more information of a typical day throughout dairy farming? Because I would imagine each day is much the same because it is just routine, is it not?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. Can I just say that they are very much the same in the summer and very much the same in the winter, but 2 totally different days.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. Well, just give us a couple of scenarios.
Mr. C. Taylor :
In the winter, the cows would be housed indoors, which was in the original sheds or in that complex. The Mercury building was purely for machinery storage and hay. A typical day in the winter would have been to start at around 4.30 a.m., 5.00 a.m. The cows were taken out of the building into the collecting yard ready for milking. The beds were cleaned. The ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
Is that all within that same complex, within that same shed?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, the cows would have come out of the sheds, outdoors, to the south of the buildings, and kept in a holding yard in the southern ... south of the sheds.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Outside?
Mr. C. Taylor : Outside.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Right, and then what happens?
Mr. C. Taylor :
We then cleaned the beds and ensured that there was clean shavings for the cows to lie on. You did not worry about cow comfort when they lay down because they are happy lying on concrete, but it is more cleanliness. They did sometimes mess in their beds. So it was cleaning those out, scraping down the passageways. The passageways were cleared with a small tractor, a 40-45 horsepower tractor with a big scraper on the back. That would take probably 20 minutes. Then we would feed the cows. We had an 8-tonne mixer trailer, so to mix up to 8 tonnes of silage with any other additives that you put in there such as concentrate, feed, proteins and so on. Then that was fed out. We had a 120-horsepower tractor for that. That tractor was revving at full revs inside an empty shed at ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
So the cows went back in the shed and you fed them in the shed?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, we put the feed out, closed up the sheds. We then milked the cows and they came through the parlour and back into the shed. So, some of the cows were out for about 2 and a half hours; some of the cows were only out for about an hour, because the milking time was between an hour and a half and 2 hours. There was then another half an hour of milking machine running while it was cleaning itself because obviously all the pipes had to be sterilised.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. So, this scraper system and all that sort of thing, all that effluent went into some sort of tanker system, obviously?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. When you visited the site, the flat area beside the silage clamp used to have a tower silo which held a million litres of slurry. It was one of these round tin ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
So how did that slurry get from the cows into there?
Mr. C. Taylor :
It was scraped into a reception pit below ground and then ...
Mr. E. Trevor: Pumped up?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Probably every 2 or 3 days it was pumped up, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Right, okay, that is fine. Okay, so that is your wintertime scenario. Sorry, going back to ... so then in the evening you would repeat the process virtually the same?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Repeat the process exactly the same.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Virtually identical process?
Mr. C. Taylor : Virtually identical, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. So, now give us the summertime process, please.
Mr. C. Taylor :
The summertime process, again we started probably half an hour later because we did not have all the cleaning to do. We would start around 5.00 a.m., 5.30 a.m., fetching the cows in from the fields, into the collecting yard. We would milk them through the parlour ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
Sorry, where would your fields typically have been to bring and how many head of cattle would you be bringing in?
Mr. C. Taylor :
We would be bringing in 120 head of cattle.
Mr. E. Trevor:
From which direction?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Usually from an easterly direction.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So that is over towards Pallot's(?) and that ...?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Over towards Pallot's, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So you had owned or rented all those fields across that ...?
Mr. C. Taylor :
I rented those fields, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So, principally, that is where you kept all your cattle?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes, at night. We milked them through into the shed and we had what was termed buffer feeding. In other words, there was a small amount of silage, so while the first cows milked and had to wait an hour and a half for the rest to be milked, they had something to eat. Once you had finished milking and cleaning down, we then took those cows down the driveway, across the main road to the daytime
grazing paddocks which were across the main road.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Which is ... I am just trying to think ...
Mr. C. Taylor : Travelling west.
Mr. E. Trevor:
You have the crossroads there?
Mr. C. Taylor :
You have the crossroads. So, down my driveway on to the road, then straight across the main road and on down that other lane to the other fields. It was a nightmare.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So you would be moving 120 cattle between sort of 2 of you, 2 or 3 of you, if you like droving them?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor: Okay.
Mr. C. Taylor :
I had 2 Welsh colleagues who helped enormously. They were worth their weight in gold.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay, and presumably, the same sort of procedure at night time?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Same procedure, you brought them back across the main road, milked in the afternoon and back out to the night-time paddocks.
Mr. E. Trevor:
How often did the dairy come to pick up ... presumably they come to pick up every day your milk?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Or was it twice a day?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, every day, once a day.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Just once a day, 7 days a week?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. So, the area that we are talking about, which is the sheds and the silage clamp and everything, you touched on making this silage. I do not know anything about making silage so presumably you harvest the stuff in the summer?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Then how long does it take you from harvesting to when it is now usable silage?
Mr. C. Taylor :
We would harvest usually the first week of May. The harvesting would take usually 2, maybe 3 days. We would start round about 9.00 a.m. or 10.00 a.m. in the morning. Sometimes we would go on as late as 10.00 p.m., 11.00 p.m. at night. It was all up to which contractor we were using and how willing they were to work late. Once it was in and sealed, the fermentation process usually takes 3 to 4 weeks.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Oh, not very long, then.
Mr. C. Taylor :
Not very long. I would usually try not to use it until the ... I suppose the beginning of September. If I can explain, there were 2 silage clamps there because it was partitioned down the middle.
Mr. E. Trevor: That is right, yes.
Mr. C. Taylor :
What you do is you would be using one for the summertime buffer feeding. Hopefully it would be empty by the end of September when the maize silage came in and filled that clamp, and then ... because maize silage you can feed from the day you harvest it. You do not have to wait for it to ferment.
[14:00]
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. So, the point I am trying to get to, there was some sort of activity in the silage clamp area virtually all year round?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay, I think that answers all my ... because I wanted to get a little bit of a feel for exactly what went on in that area. Now, the other question I have is once you finished with the cows, you came out of dairy farming, what exactly happened to that area from then up to when Reg's Skips moved in? You know, I have heard about the scaffolding company and Ged Sparks. Give us some timelines on that.
Mr. C. Taylor :
When I came out of dairying ... well, in fact, it was beforehand, it was I think April of 2002 that I received permission from Agriculture to participate in the outgoer scheme. I then had ... no, it must have been earlier. I did not have long, I know that. It was about 6 to 8 weeks in which to sell all the cows and close down, but it was as soon as I got that permit to leave the industry that I went to Planning and asked for change of use. The change of use did not come through, I believe, until somewhere in the region of July, but I cannot remember. I think it was July. It will be on the permit anyway. Having made a ... my plan was that the first thing to do was to get the big Mercury shed ready to be rented. It was the one that required the least investment, the least amount of work, and it was going to be 50 per cent of my revenue, so it was important to get that one up and running as quick as possible. We started building in there in the August and, if my memory is right, it was finished around about November and Jubilee Scaffolding took possession in December 2002.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay, so it was fairly swift?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Well, it had to be from my financial point of view, yes. Then the process moved to the other sheds, and the advice I had at the time was to make that again one big lettable unit, and I thought no because I did not want all my eggs in just 2 baskets.
Mr. E. Trevor:
That is when you split it up into these 11 different units, is it not?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. It logically split into 11 units.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay. The point I am trying to get to, so you had the scaffolding company inside the shed and then you had ... sorry, what does Ged Sparks do?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Ged Sparks, haulage contractor. He has lorries, he had one digger and he had one 360 track vehicle, which I think is a 7 and a half tonner.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Right. So they were using this outside clamp area as their yard, in effect?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So, how many machines would they be storing on site at any one time, or lorries?
Mr. C. Taylor :
They had 3 lorries. They had one of these yellow diggers and this 360 track machine. The track machine, they obviously from their economical point of view, to minimise movements of it because it had to go on a trailer, they tended to take from site to site and it did not appear very often at Heatherbrae.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So basically they had 3 lorries and a digger on site?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Three lorries and a digger.
Mr. E. Trevor:
There was no processing; that was just purely storage?
Mr. C. Taylor :
It was purely storage and ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
Just a few vehicle movements and that was it?
Mr. C. Taylor :
A few vehicle movements. They did store ... in the silage clamp they had one area with top soil and the other area with hardcore because as haulage contractors, those were the 2 valuable things you could trade, was hardcore and top soil.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Did they have permission to store those things there?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
They did. So it arrived, tip, and then the digger would presumably load it into lorries and take it off to sell it?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Load it into lorries and take it away, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
I have seen your silage clamp. What percentage of the area would you describe as used by this storage of top soil and shale or stone or whatever?
Mr. C. Taylor :
On the top soil side, about 50 per cent of the floor area was ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
Of the total size of that clamp?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, the one half. So, about 25 per cent was covered with top soil, which they had heaped up.
Mr. E. Trevor: And the other ...?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Slightly less, probably 20 per cent of the area was covered with hardcore.
Mr. E. Trevor:
Okay, but there was no processing, they were just buying this hardcore or getting it from a job, tip it there, leave it there and then sell it?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. E. Trevor: Okay.
Mr. J. Mills:
Can I just come back to a few points you said before about the relationship with Planning and Miss Baxter. You said that she approached you and that is when ... following that you then wrote to either Mrs. Ashworth or Miss Clapshaw, the same person, and that initiated the process.
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
When you heard ... you said then that you think either at the end of 9th March or the beginning of 10th March, after the pre-application advice was considered, you got a phone call from her saying ... you know, a favourable signal, obviously without prejudice, from the pre-application advice: if you want to submit an application come in and do it. So, she contacted you back and then you followed in on the back of that, so to speak?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
Okay, I just want to be absolutely clear about that. Could I also just ask you about your other relationships with Planning. You mentioned that Miss Clapshaw had been the one you dealt with, and this related to your ... you had another application at that time for the removal of the corpus fundi on 2 of your fields.
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
Which I see from my papers here was approved by the committee on 29th June but it had been rolling. So that is how you knew Miss Clapshaw, was it?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Well, I had known her ... I cannot say how far back but certainly I knew her in 2002.
Mr. J. Mills:
She is the one who did the original change of use?
Mr. C. Taylor :
The original change of use, yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
I see, so she was your ...
Mr. C. Taylor :
She was my point of contact. Between 2002 and 2005 I had had my brother, on behalf of Jersey Gold and Jersey Pearl, rent 2 small storage units, which was one of the reasons why I was going for the smaller storage units because I already had 4 people lined up for them. My brother took 2 of them. The third one ... I am afraid they have moved around a bit since. So, I know there were 4, and as each tenant applied obviously she was the point of contact I wrote to with each of them. So, yes, I had had this contact with Mrs. Ashworth since 2002.
Mr. J. Mills:
Okay, that is good. I think that is all ... do you want to put anything back to us, any question you want to put back to us on this part only of the issues we are looking at?
Mr. C. Taylor :
On this part only. I am just sort of trying to go through ... I did take some notes this morning. Yes. Just one of the points was that when Miss Baxter approached me, she said it would be bringing Reg into sort of one site, one operation. I am not exactly sure how she put it, but I was made aware by her that they were using Abbey Plant to sort some of their rubbish and this would enable them to do everything at one site because it was more convenient. Obviously, a business operating from one site is preferable. It was explained Reg's Skips had 4 lorries, 4 drivers, that was the size of the business and nothing has changed since.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So your understanding was that they were already involved in skip sorting from ... Miss Baxter told you this, did she? Or she indicated or something? How did ...?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. She explained that they sorted skips, yes.
Mr. E. Trevor:
She did not elaborate on that, but you just said that ...
Mr. C. Taylor :
She did not say how many, not at this stage, but it was clear that it was for the sorting of skips. That is why I was reasonably ... why I would have preferred them on the concrete site and not on the open site. My concern as a landlord was litter. I did not want paper bags, plastic bags or whatever blowing all over the place, and in the silage clamp it was a more shielded and sheltered area. That was why to me that was the preferred site. When Ged Sparks approached me shortly ... it was around that time, but I cannot remember exactly when, one of their drivers was leaving and they were going to be downsizing a small amount. I put it to them would they like to swap areas and that is what they agreed to do.
Mr. E. Trevor:
So did you have Ged Sparks and Reg's Skips on the site at the same time?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes. They were there ...
Mr. E. Trevor:
How long was that period?
Mr. C. Taylor :
I am trying to remember when Ged left. The firm had a chequered history because when Henri, who was the French driver, left at around that time, there was a bit of friction within the business. It would have been 2007, I think, that the second of the 4 drivers left and the partnership finally was dissolved and they left I think 2 years ago now, 18 months or 2 years ago they finally left. So yes, they were there for a good 2 and a half, 3 years, with Reg's Skips at the same time, yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
You said that you were a bit concerned when you were told that the application was for the company only, it was not to go with the land, it was the company only.
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
Can you just recall when you learnt that? Did you learn that when you went down to the Planning Department on 10th March to fill in and sign the form or did you know about that earlier?
Mr. C. Taylor :
No, I am fairly certain it was when I went to fill in the form because it was finding out that it was just for that one ... I was of the opinion that I was helping them out and there I was getting a change of use which was only for them and having to pay for it. I can remember just having to swallow rather hard at that time.
Mr. E. Trevor:
You felt you had paid £200 and you should have a wider permit?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Well, if I paid for the change of use, then I should have the change of use, yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
What was the response ... you saw Miss Baxter when you went down there, did you?
Mr. C. Taylor :
I am not sure. It may only have been an assistant.
Mr. J. Mills:
Right, and they just said: "Rules are rules", did they?
Mr. C. Taylor : Probably. [Laughter]
Mr. J. Mills:
Okay. Now, one other ... once your application had gone in on 10th March, we learnt this morning it was ... the various actions were taken, an advertisement was made and Agriculture and probably Health were contacted, and it was decided in May by delegated powers. Did you have any ... did Planning keep you informed of progress and did you become aware of the letter of objection that was received?
Mr. C. Taylor :
Yes, I did receive copies of the 3 correspondence. One was from Agriculture, which had said: "No, we do not want the farm back in agriculture." The second one was from ... I think the second ... I cannot remember the order, but I think the order was that the second one was from W.P. Skips, which I just ignored because it was a competitor. I think the last one was Environmental Health and I have a sneaky feeling that it got to me literally only a day or 2 before the permit arrived. Certainly, if I had waited the full 7 days to respond to it I think I would have had the permit before I responded to it, but I may be wrong. I may be wrong. I know the permit came very quickly.
Mr. J. Mills:
So, Planning copied those to you as and when they received them?
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
Then you got the permit and that is where we ended the ...
Mr. C. Taylor : Yes.
Mr. J. Mills:
Okay. I think that is as far as we want to go, then, today.
Mr. C. Taylor : Fine, thank you.
Mr. J. Mills:
Thank you very much, indeed. We will probably want to talk to you again when we come to ...
Mr. C. Taylor :
I have more to say. [Laughter]
Mr. J. Mills:
You will have every chance to say it. Thank you very much, indeed.
Mr. C. Taylor : Thank you.
[14:14]