Public Accounts Committee - Approved Committee Minutes - 24 January 2012

Present

Deputy T. Vallois, Chairman Senator S. C. Ferguson, Deputy S. Pitman (From item 4) Deputy R. Rondel

Mr S. Haigh

Mr A. Fearn

Mr C. Evans

Apologies

Mr. C. Swinson O.B.E. – Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG)

Absent

In attendance

Mr M. Robbins, Scrutiny Officer

Ref Back

Agenda matter

Action

1. Election of Vice Chairman.

Senator S. Ferguson was elected Vice president of the Committee.

2. Records of Meetings

The Committee noted informal records of meetings of 28th November 2011,  12th  December  2011  and  14th  December  2011  held  in preparation for the first meeting of the Committee.

3. Schedule of meetings.

The Committee approved the following schedule of meetings for 2012, all to be held at 12.30 pm in the Blampied Room:

Monday  February  20th,  Monday  March  19th,  Monday  April  16th, Monday  May  14th,  Monday  June  11th,  Monday  July  9th,  Monday September 17th, Monday October 15th, Monday November 12th and Monday December 10th.

The Committee also noted Monday August 6th as a possible meeting date should that be required but recognized that this was in the holiday period and may not be necessary or practical. A decision on meeting on that date was to be taken nearer the time.

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4. Conduct of meetings

The Committee noted Standing Order 134(1) stating that the quorum for the Public Accounts Committee was one half its membership rounded up to the next whole number, of which at least two would be members who  are  elected  members.  Standing  Order  134(2-8)  explained  the voting and other working practices of the Committee.

The Committee further agreed that general meetings,

• be closed to the public under Standing Order 134(7) as agreed by the Chairmen's Committee;
• may have private sections under the Code of Practice on Public

Access  to  Official  Information,  section  3,2,1,  although  such privacy was to be justified on an individual basis;

• Lunches were not to be provided at lunchtime meetings from the scrutiny budget in accordance with an amendment to the Annual Business Plan 2010;
• the  officer  or  Chairman  were  to  be  notified  of  anticipated absence.

It further agreed that all hearings;

• Were held in public;
• Members were to dress formally and be on time;
• No food was to be present;

It also agreed that pre-hearing meetings were to be held by the Committee and private sessions was available where necessary.

5. Communication

The  Committee  agreed  on  methods  of  communication  between  its members, the C&AG, the officer and departments or outside agencies. Agendas and papers were to be sent to members electronically and in hard copy.

6. Minute writing

The Committee noted Paragraphs 6.1 to 6.5 of the Code of Practice covering the arrangements for Meetings. In particular, Paragraph 6.5 referred to records and minutes. Paragraph 4.14 also had relevance and provided examples of when a formal record must be made. This applied to the PAC by virtue of paragraph 13.1 which required that the general approach of the PAC reflected that adopted by the Scrutiny Panels.

Where  matters  had  been  discussed  publicly,  the  minutes,  once approved by the Committee and signed by the Chairman, were to be published on the website and remained a public record.

Where the Committee had discussed an item under a private agenda, be that under Standing Orders or the Code of Practice on Public Access to Official Information it was to be recorded in private minutes. There  was  to  be  a  public  record  that  the  meeting  took  place containing no detail of the content. Should the matter discussed be suitable for public dissemination, the minute was to be transferred to the public minutes.

7. Updates from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The  Committee  considered  the  nature  of  the  information  contained within  updates  provided  to  the  Committee  by  the  Comptroller  and Auditor General and agreed that such briefings would be exempt from disclosure in accordance with the Code of Practice on Public Access to Official Information, provided that they fell within the list of exemptions contained within paragraph 3.2 of that Code.

8. Conflicts of Interest.

The  Committee  considered  members'  position relating to  conflict of interests in the work of the Committee. The Committee undertook to

actively consider this area at the start of every review. It was discussed whether  this  could  be  incorporated  into  the  scoping  document  to encourage  formal  consideration.  The  officer  was  to  consider  this approach.

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9. Training

Training  relating  to  the  financial  accountability  of  the  States  was deferred  to  the  next  meeting  because  the  Comptroller  and  Auditor General was unavoidably absent.

It  was  noted  that  the  local  training  on  Chairing  Skills  had  been postponed due to difficulty in finding a suitable facilitator.

10.  Commonwealth  Parliamentary  Association  Public  Accounts Committee workshop.

The Committee agreed that this would be a high value workshop and that a member and officer should attend. However, it noted that the hotel in London that the workshop was being held at exceeded the States policy of £150 per night for accommodation. As the Committee would be examining and possibly raising criticism of others in the future relating to breaches of policy, it declined to approve any expenditure of more than the policy limit for accommodation. It noted that there was no request for scrutiny funds as the workshop was to be funded by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association for the Member attending and from the States Greffe training budget for the officer.

It was further noted that there was a separation of member and officer delegates at times and therefore a separate report would be required from both the attending member and the officer on their return.

The  Committee  agreed  that   Deputy  S.  Pitman  would  represent  the Committee as the elected member.

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11. Training relating to questioning accounting officers.

Matters relating to this were deferred to the next meeting because the Comptroller and Auditor General was unavoidably absent.

12. Westminster visit.

It was agreed by the Committee that a visit to the Westminster PAC was an excellent learning opportunity that should be taken advantage of. It was good value for money to have all members of the Committee fully trained in the work of the PAC and this was recognized to be a part of the overall Scrutiny strategy. Deputy S. Pitman elected not to attend.

There was discussion relating to the advisability of spending money sending non-elected members when they  were only to be  with the Committee for six months. It was decided that it was appropriate to send the elected members now and the permanently recruited non- elected members following their appointment.

Of the two dates available for this visit, the 26th March 2012 was approved. The Committee recognized that this visit required a two night stopover  as  the  visit  day  would  start  early  and  finish  late.  The Committee therefore approved a cost of £500 per person, namely three elected members and an officer, totaling £2,000.

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13. Work programme.

The  Committee  agreed  that  a  key  measure  of  success  of  the Committee was that it be seen by interested members of the public to be an effectual committee. To achieve that some focus was required and the Committee agreed to ensure that its work was factual rather than political.

It was also agreed that its work should be guided to a large extent by the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General which frequently focused on a lack of corporate governance.

It was further agreed that there appeared to be a lack of collective responsibility which allowed those within the system allowed to blame others when there was a problem. There was a perceived disconnect between  the  Ministers  and  Civil  Servants  and  the  of  accountability needed to be examined.

Further areas of interest for members included;

the pension deficit,

oversight on the Comprehensive Spending Review, purchasing within the States of Jersey

It was agreed that close communication with the Corporate Services Panel was required to ensure topics were fully examined. It was too early to decide when these areas would be started but this was to be researched prior to the next meeting in order that the Committee could comply with paragraph 7.1 and 7.15 of the Code of Practice. Members were to advise the officer of any areas of particular interest that were to be included in the considerations.

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14. Audit Committee.

The Chairman provided the Committee with information relating to the Audit Committee following a meeting with the Treasurer of the States. The Treasurer had offered to supply any documentation relating to the Audit Committee that may be required by the PAC.

15. Pensions.

The  Committee  discussed  the  Public  Employers  Contribution Retirement Scheme. It recognised that an actuarial review was due and decided  to  discuss  the  position  with  the  Comptroller  and  Auditor General following publication of the review.

16. Strategic Aims of the PAC.

The  Committee,  recognizing  that  the  public  expected  effectiveness, trust and independence from the PAC, decided that a strategic aim was required for the next three years in order to produce a product of value.

Consideration  was  given  to  the  States  Strategic  Plan  and  the examination of what had or had not been done by departments to obtain value for money relating to the plan. It was agreed that corporate governance  was  a  useful  strategic  aim  to  assist  the  Committee  in working towards such an aim.

The merits or otherwise of regular quarterly meetings with the Treasurer of the States was discussed. Whilst it was agreed that this would be a

useful method of following up on recommendations contained within the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General, no decision was made on the implementation of such an arrangement.

17. Review into the Bus Contract.

Draft  Terms  of  Reference  were  presented  to  the  Committee  for consideration  along  with  scoping  documents  and  a  time  line.  The Committee accepted the documents requiring they be forwarded to the Chairmen's Committee.

Mr. Haigh declared a connection with Connex which he requested be considered by the Committee in case there was a conflict. As chairman of the La Motte Street Youth Project, a charity set up to oversee the governance and direction of the activities of La Motte Street Youth Centre,  Mr.  Haigh  has  secured  an  agreement  that  Connex  would provide financial assistance to cover the transport costs of participants of  a  specific  event  in  the  United  Kingdom. This  was  noted  by  the Committee.

18. Future Meetings

The Committee agreed that the next meeting was to be at 12.30 pm on Monday  20th  February  2012  in  the  Blampied  Room  of  the  States Buildings.