Environmental Pannel - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Transport and Technical Services - 20 May 2013

Environment Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services

MONDAY, 20th MAY 2013

Panel:

Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman) Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin

Connétable P.J. Rondel of St. John

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services)

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services) Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services

Director of Transport, Transport and Technical Services

Assistant Director of Technical Services, Transport and Technical Services

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Transport and Technical Services

Topics Discussed

1. DVS and the Road Traffic Law  Page 2
2. EU Regulations and Type Approval  Page 4
3. Tractors  Page 13
4. P30 exemptions  Page 25
5. Vehicle definitions; electrically assisted bicycles   Page 29
6. Other vehicles  Page 31
7. Need for law changes  Page 35
8. Motor tricycles  Page 39
9. Departmental resources  Page 48

[14:36]

Deputy J.H. Young of St. Brelade (Chairman):

Well, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to this afternoon Scrutiny hearing of the Environment Scrutiny Panel. Welcome to the Minister for Transport and Technical Services and his team. Before we introduce ourselves, just to say this afternoon's subject is we are going to have a session probably until about 3.45 p.m., we are aiming to try and make it. Obviously, we may go slightly more than that, but around about an hour and a quarter. We want to focus in on the Driver and Vehicle Standards Department work, D.V.S., and in particular the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law 1956 and subordinate legislation. We want to focus in on a couple of areas about that. So just to introduce ourselves for the record, Deputy John Young, Chairman of the Environment Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Well, welcome to you all, Minister and your team. Thank you very much for coming this afternoon and in force and welcome to the members of the public and representatives of the media this afternoon. We want to obviously focus in on regulation. Now, Minister, I was surprised to find when I took on this role that regulation of road traffic fell within your area of Transport and Technical Services because predominantly your area very much is technical expertise and regulation is not exactly that. Do you have a view on that? Do you regard it as part of your normal responsibilities or is this something that does not fit in the mainstream of your department's work?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, I think it does fit. It was something that was inherited from, I believe, the Defence Committee originally. We have the Head of D.V.S., who does an excellent job there. It fits very nicely within T.T.S.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, thank you for that. I do not suppose you could remind the panel what were the main reasons why it got transferred to T.T.S. as to why ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Oh, long before my time. Director?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  

My understanding was that many years ago it was a decision of the States. There were different working parties had operated and one of the decisions they made was that anything to do with transport should be amalgamated and that clearly D.V.S., that deals with taxis, deals with buses, deals with coaches, at the time they also dealt with driving licences, registration of vehicles, the number of vehicles that were on the road. My understanding is that the working party decided that that should be all in the one place and that was with what was Public Services at the time, which when the amalgamation took place became Transport and Technical Services.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Thank you. It does seem obviously then for strategic reasons it seems. So having got that out of the way - I am grateful for that - we want to focus in on the process that you have, Minister, in place for regular updating of the law, which I understand the main one, would I be right, is the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law 1956?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Could you give us generally the processes that your department or through your officers how this gets regularly updated and what changes, please?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  

Well, again, there are various aspects. For example, there are a number of Orders. There are probably, I do not know, something in the order of about 20 to 25 Orders, subordinate legislation to the Road Traffic Law. Many of those are clearly the parish Orders such as the Parish of St. John Order, Parish of St. Brelade Order. So you have 12 Orders for the parishes, you have one for parking, you have construction and use and lighting legislation. You also have other ones that are perhaps a little bit more obscure, but they are all part of doing Road Traffic Law. The main one I would imagine that is of interest today or the main ones that are of interest today appear to be driver licensing and the construction and use legislation and perhaps the lighting legislation. Those are 3 fairly significant pieces of legislation that are subordinate to the Road Traffic Law itself.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can I just check, driver licensing, that is done by Home Affairs, is it not?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  No.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: No, that is done by ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

So the parishes do it or ...?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: The parishes administer the licensing.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding there. So all those pieces of legislation come under your department. What about E.U. (European Union) changes? Is there a process of changes to vehicle requirements, construction requirements, coming from Europe that we have to bring into our law?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We do not have to bring them into our law because we are clearly not part of the E.U., the European Economic Area. However, there are lots of aspects of their legislation. For example, it is clearly quite important that people from Jersey when they move to the U.K. (United Kingdom) or move to other parts of Europe are allowed to continue to drive there. While there is a situation called the international circulation legislation, which is also part of the Road Traffic Law, it is very important that people are allowed to drive when they go there. It is very important they are allowed to take their vehicles as well. If you do not have a registered vehicle, if you do not have a driving licence, you will not be able to drive in these other countries. So clearly it is quite important that we keep abreast of what is considered to be the norm in Europe.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I just clarify something? You said we are not obliged to do some of the things inside the E.U. with regard to these motor vehicles, but does that mean we do not or does that mean we do but we are not obliged to?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It means that it would be extremely wrong of us, I think, to ignore what comes out from Europe in terms of things like vehicle safety and standards. So if Jersey had not followed ... the U.K. follow the E.U. because they are part of the E.U. It would be strange, I would think, if Jersey had not followed in terms of things like seat belts, in terms of things like emissions, in terms of things like tyres, et cetera.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So what you are saying is we not obliged to follow seat belts, for example, but we have done and we continue to do ...?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: We have done for good safety reasons, yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, and we follow all the other E.U. regulations as well?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It would be nice to follow a number of them. However, it is very difficult to keep abreast of these, clearly, with the resources that are available to us. For example, I am sure that one of the things that you may bring out today, things like quadricycles. Quadricycles are not legal in Jersey because of how they are written down in the Road Traffic Law. I think I explained at a previous time that the definition of motorcycle in Jersey is something with less than 3 wheels. Now, the definition of a motorcycle in Europe now is something with less than 4 wheels.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So this is an example where there are constraints, where you come across a snag, because our law basically prohibits us to adopt an E.U. change?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It does not prohibit us adopting an E.U. change. It means that we have to change our legislation to keep up with what the standards are.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Are there difficulties about that, Minister?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: There can sometimes be conflicts.

Deputy J.H. Young: Can you expand a bit?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, as the Director of D.V.S. has just said, 4 wheels, 3 wheels, we have our own legislation set down and we would have to alter that. It is obviously vehicle type that would be acceptable in one country may not be acceptable in another.

[14:45]

Deputy J.H. Young:

Maybe just shifting the debate from laws for a minute, are there practical difficulties with people taking Jersey-registered vehicles away to either Britain or Europe? Do problems get reported to you of people running into regulatory or difficulties about ...?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

As long as they obey the laws of that particular country. For instance, in France now I am not sure if it has been fully implemented but the carrying of the warning triangle, the safety vest and the breathalyser is something we do not have here, but obviously travelling to another country like France you would need to have that.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What about the construction of vehicles, though?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Construction and use as far as I know is equivalent to any other country.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think we are speaking about motorcars here, perhaps the odd truck, but vehicles that are circulating in Jersey have for many years now been manufactured to type approval. Therefore, when a vehicle is registered in Jersey, type approval is something that has been set up in Europe. They decide what a car should comprise of, what the safety requirements of that car are, and each of the manufacturers provide documentation to the E.U. to say: "This vehicle that we have just manufactured meets all your safety requirements, meets all the requirements for emissions", et cetera, "and therefore we would like to manufacture these cars and be given type approval." So these vehicles when they come into Jersey, if they have been registered elsewhere and have type approval, then they will be registered in Jersey as long as they are fit, and if they are brand new and come into Jersey with type approval then they will be registered.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is very helpful. Can I just clear up one thing? Do you have access to all this information database and, if so, how do you have it, through the U.K. authorities or direct through Europe?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Which database are you ...?

Deputy J.H. Young:

Well, what you have just described requires a lot of access to information.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Not really. If a vehicle has been registered somewhere else, it has a registration document and it tells you on that registration document what its type approval is.

Deputy J.H. Young: Oh, so we rely on those?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They bring the documentation with them.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I was just going to go back to quad bikes because are quad bikes type approved?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Quadricycles are type approved in the E.U. or different E.U. jurisdictions.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So why are they not type approved here? Why then are we not allowed to register them over here?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Because there is no such thing as a quadricycle in Jersey. You either have a car or you have a motorcycle. They are type approved as quadricycles. They are not type approved as motorcars. They are not type approved as motorcycles. They are type approved as quadricycles. I know that sounds a bit ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

What, quadricycles do not exist as regards the Motor Traffic Law in Jersey?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: The Road Traffic Law, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young: Can we not amend that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: It could be amended.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They can be used on private property, private land.

Deputy J.H. Young:

No, I was just trying to get at the process.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I was not going to talk about quad bikes particularly, but the issue I have is am I correct in thinking that a Guernseyman riding a quad bike can bring his Guernsey-registered quadricycle to Jersey and ride it round on our roads perfectly legally?

Director, Driver and Vehicle Standards:  

No.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Can a Frenchman do that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So what do they do when they get here?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Park it up and hire a car.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I am sure they do ride it around here but they are actually riding illegally.

Deputy J.H. Young: Well, they do.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, which turns on the head the question we were asking about Jersey vehicles going to the likes of France. The fact that the vehicle is type approved in its own country does not necessarily mean to say it is legal in that country. It is exactly the same with driver licensing. A 17 year-old passes his driving test in Jersey today. If he goes to France tomorrow he is not legally entitled to drive in France because you have to be 18 to drive in France.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, but is the idea not about the Jersey driving licence to be E.U. compliant so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The Jersey driving licence is E.U. compliant but the standard age for driving a motorcar in Europe is 18. The E.U. have given jurisdictions a protocol or a derogation and it allows them to do what they wish to do. So we have situations in the likes of the U.K. where driving a car has been a 17 year-old's prerogative for many years. They are allowed in the U.K. to drive at 17. However, if that 17 year-old from the U.K. decides to go to France, he cannot drive.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Presumably, it is the same as Guernsey. Motorcyclists can ride a motorcycle in Guernsey at 14, can they not?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Well, a moped at 14.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But if he comes over to Jersey he cannot do that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No, or anywhere else in Europe.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I am trying to draw this part of the session to a close. What I think you are describing is that our law does not run right throughout the whole of Europe but certain things do like vehicle type?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Vehicle type standards.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What you are saying I think is the E.U. allows for differences between national laws to fit their particular circumstances. Good. I think we will come back to that because there might be some examples ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I just have one last clarification and then I will be quiet for a couple of seconds. [Laughter] On the basis that the Guernseyman cannot arrive in Jersey with his quad bike and ride it, is that the same for winches and bull bars on the front of vehicles?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So people driving round with winches or metal bull bars on their vehicles, U.K. or Guernsey- registered, are doing that illegally?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, unless they have applied for an exemption licence, and not many people do.

The Deputy of St. Martin : So some specific purpose?

The Connétable of St. John :

We would give them an exemption licence?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It depends if it is in the public's interest to give them an exemption licence.

The Connétable of St. John :

I have not seen it this year, but in the past I have seen regular U.K. registered 4x4s with bull bars on, steel bull bars. So they are circulating illegally?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If they had an accident, would they be insured?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I do not know. You would have to ask their insurance company. Insurance companies are notorious for backing out when it is ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Any loophole.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think if they hit your car I am sure they probably would be insured. If they took out a bus stop with 6 school kids there and the claim went to millions, you might find that they would turn round and say that ...

The Connétable of St. John :

So is this a grey area? Because if it is not being policed and you are aware ... well, we are aware that it happens, we see them around the roads of Jersey since ... 10, 15 years since we have introduced the plastic bull bars if they want them and not the steel ones, and they have been circulating from the U.K. or wherever they come from with these bits of kit on them. When your officers see these, what action do they take, if any?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If my officers saw them they would issue them with a defect notice and tell them that they should not be driving around, but my officers do not have policing powers. It is not as if they can charge them.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

If they were stopped in a D.V.S. road check they would obviously be pulled over.

The Connétable of St. John :

What happens on the port of embarkation?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

All I can say is that it is on the T.T.S. website that bull bars should not be used in Jersey.

The Connétable of St. John : Should not be used, not illegal?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They are illegal, yes, but I do not know what happens in Poole or Weymouth or whatever.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So are you saying there is no effective enforcement system in operation to ensure that our laws are enforced?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I do not think I can speak for the police. What I am saying to you is that you asked me a question whether bull bars are legal in Jersey. The answer to that is no, bull bars are not legal in Jersey, and that goes for any vehicle that is travelling around Jersey, unless for whatever reason they have proved that it is in the public's interest for them to have these ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do the police ever refer these cases to you to adjudicate on?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There have been a couple of situations where the police have told a quad rider not to ride their vehicle around on the road when they saw it at the hotel, and I am aware that similar things have happened with people with bull bars.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What about guidance for the honorary police? Do they have access to that guidance on these things?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Guidance from whom?

Deputy J.H. Young:

From you because you are the expert, you know all these things.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is all set down in the law.

Deputy J.H. Young: Yes, but I think what ...

Director of Transport:

What D.V.S. do is they provide the police and the honorary police a training programme for officers that are undertaking traffic duties, and so D.V.S. provide training as to how to undertake road checks.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There are also leaflets and the like that are available.

The Connétable of St. John :

I have to pick up what you said. Police notify people when they see them riding quads on the road, so there is nothing that happens, you do not work in tandem with the police, customs and harbours, shall we say?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We work very closely with all the authorities. However, again, we do not set priorities and I am not sure that there are always people, can we say, up front. I think if the police or the customs people knew that someone was coming in with a quad bike, perhaps they would say something to them, but I am not sure that we are talking about lots of vehicles coming in. I would imagine that the police and customs officers have better priorities.

Director of Transport:

When D.V.S. do undertake road checks around parishes and around the Island, resources allowing there is usually a police officer present checking licences and the like and there is often someone from Customs and Excise checking fuels and undertaking those kind of checks as part of the ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, with dipping tanks.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I want to come back before we close the session on resources, but now we have the approach to the law, I want to go into a couple of areas in detail and kind of test it out. What you have told us is we have the ability as an Island to adjust our law to local circumstances within these constraints of type approval and so on and free movement of vehicles, as it were. Can we start to talk - it will not surprise you about this - about tractors, where we have seen in the Island a very, very substantial change with the type of tractors which are now circulating in the Island. Not just the increase in their size and speed, which seems to be up to 40 mile an hour routinely on roads, but also in the amount of time they spend on roads compared with being on fields with the changes in farming patterns. Can you tell us your opinion, please, whether the current use of tractors in Jersey is in accordance with the laws that we have?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think if the tractor is being used for agricultural purposes then it is fully compliant with the law at present. In terms of size and power I think they are compliant as well. You have also said there about them travelling at more than 30 miles an hour. First of all, if they are travelling at more than 30 miles an hour they are breaking the law because any vehicle that is over 3 and a half tonnes or any vehicle drawing a trailer is required to travel at nothing more than 30 miles an hour. But also, going back to type approval, it has been since 2003 tractors that are manufactured in Europe are manufactured to type approval. I did some checking before I came to the meeting and all tractors that have recently been registered in Jersey are what is called type T1 in terms of E.U. Type T1 tractors cannot travel or should not be able to travel at more than 40 kilometres an hour.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Which is how many miles an hour?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

About 25, 26. Sorry, it is 25 if you do it with the 5 and the 8 but they are actually allowed a tolerance of 3 kilometres an hour, which takes it up to the 26.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I would just point out as well that also applies to any domestic vehicle towing a trailer. It is still 30 miles an hour.

The Connétable of St. John :

What about the trailer attached to the vehicle, to the tractor? Is there not a weight that they can carry?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: It should be marked on it, yes.

The Connétable of St. John :

Every trailer should be marked accordingly?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Connétable of St. John :

The oversize, because they all carry a ...?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They are allowed to be 155 millimetres[1] overhang each side.

The Connétable of St. John :

Although they are already in many cases wider than the tractor?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, I am talking up to 2.3 metres wide, they can then be another 155 millimetres[2] wider.

Deputy J.H. Young: That is 15 centimetres?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes, 15.5 centimetres.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So a tractor can have an overhanging trailer only by 15 centimetres either side?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes. That is the same with any trailer.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do you believe that to be enforced in the Island?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think you would need to ask the enforcement authorities. It is not something we have come across as a problem on road checks, I have to say.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What I am trying to get at is what would be an acceptable ... you are the expert in this, Director. What would be an acceptable maximum width for a farming implement on a road being towed by a tractor then? Taking the standard width of the tractor, what would be a standard or the maximum width under our law?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Under our law 2.61, is it not, something like that?

The Connétable of St. John :

Do we still work in feet or inches or in metres because we have been talking about kilometres and then we are talking about miles. Are we talking solely now in metrification or are we going to drop back into certain laws which are in feet and inches?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think you will find that all the legislation is in metric.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Well, 2.3 metres is the standard.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So 2.3 is the standard metres for a tractor? [15:00]

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I think, Chairman, the difference that you may be encountering is a trailer, which is towed by a tractor, and an implement, which is carried by a tractor. I do not know, the Director of D.V.S. will correct me, but I think certainly the trailers are under a very strict rule as to how wide they can be. There is a rule as to how much they can overhang that width.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

When it comes to vehicles or implements which are carried on the 3-point linkage, is there a width?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  2.55.

The Deputy of St. Martin : 2.55.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

However, they can apply to be given an exemption over that. My understanding is that most of the agricultural organisations advise the parishes and the parishes are aware of what implements are over 2.55.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Would you agree, Minister, that a lot of problems with tractors, trailers and implements are perception rather than actual?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I think I would, yes. There is a perceived speed limit, higher end speed limit, of a lot of the newer tractors. It differs from the days when we were young and when there was a tiny Massey Ferguson wandering down the road to where you get the higher, bigger tractors now that are 4- wheel drive towing trailers. The illusion of speed is there, but I have not seen anyone speeding as such, although if you approach one in a tiny lane it can be quite daunting.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes, just dealing with the tiny lane scenario, some of the emails that we have had, for example, referred to noise levels of tractors, particularly being used at 5.00 a.m. and so on. Are there any maximum limits in here?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, that would be covered by type approval for the vehicle and if the vehicle is defective, exhaust or anything ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

So noise, lighting, the fact that if it is carrying overhanging equipment, are there lights and so on required to go on the overhanging parts of the trailer so people can see?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes. The vehicle should not have ... if it is wider than the 2.6 it should be having lights and markings. Again, we have produced a leaflet that is available to anyone who wishes to ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Does that cope with the fact that, say, at dusk you might see 2 great big tractor headlights and lights all surging towards you? Do the lights on the trailer have to be of equal brightness so you can see them?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It depends what you mean by equal brightness because it could well be that the ... if the tractor has a defective light and the light lights out or the light is dim, it is only the small bulb that is showing, then that is probably defective. But tractors nowadays, again going back to the 2003 E.U. law, they are supposed to have dipped headlights. Now, whether the driver dips the headlights is exactly the same as meeting any other vehicle coming along the road that only has one headlamp working. The difference between tractors and what I would call normal motor vehicles is normal motor vehicles invariably have all their lighting towards the outside lines of the vehicle. Tractors, because of how they operate, where they operate in fields and the like, their main lights are inboard of the wheels. However, they have what they call position lights that go front and rear that are normally on their mudguards.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is catered for in the law?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young: Shifting to driving now ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Can I also just clarify that you mentioned earlier on about the noise that is coming from tractors. Clearly, we can only talk about tractors that are operating on the public roads. Tractors operating in fields do not come under the jurisdiction.

Deputy J.H. Young:

No, the email that came to us was about noise on public roads. Another question was the fact that it was said that tractor drivers on public roads have to drive one-handed because they have to keep their hand on a ... so that is not true?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, thank you for clearing that up. Any other questions on ...?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, there is one, I suppose, which is the big issue, Minister, that I am sure we will get round to eventually, which is the age.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Of the driver?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The age of the driver, and under the Road Traffic Law it is quite clear that the age is 16, agricultural tractors with or without trailer, and a trailer is defined as anything that is being towed by whatever it is being towed by. I think we all know the circumstances in which that part of the law was introduced and why it was there. It does not seem to carry relevance anymore. Is it time that we changed it?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That is something that is under review at the moment.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Sorry, Minister, there was an agricultural tractor review group that was set up in 2011, I believe it was. It might be useful, I do not know, Minister, do you believe it would be useful if the committee have the ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Certainly, absolutely. There is only one surviving member of that group.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Who was on that, Minister? Minister, you were on it. Who else was on it, Minister?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

The former Constable of St. John , the former Constable of St. Saviour .

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Deputy Ben Fox.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Deputy Fox, who has retired.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Did this report, this group?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There is no final report. What you have in front of you is the recommendations of the tractor review group. There are minutes of all the meetings that took place. They met representatives of the industry, they met representatives of the public, and on the basis of the information they gathered they put together these recommendations. I think the proposal is that these eventually go to the Minister to decide exactly what is going to be taken forward. There have been a few things that have come in from the side since then inasmuch as there has been a road safety strategy that has been developed, which is looking at driver licensing as a whole. We also have the likes of the Comité des Connétable s decided that they would take to the States about theory tests happening before you get out on the road. I am aware that is in progress as well. So there are a few things that perhaps would have to be just tweaked, but basically the recommendations that are there are the ones that the group said to take forward. I do not know what ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Just before we get into it, I want to make sure I get the status of this document correct.

Director of Transport:

Sorry, what you have is a photocopy. You can see on the middle column part of it is shaded in a little bit greyer than the rest. That is actually yellow highlighting.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

That is the main recommendations. That is the ones that it was decided to take forward because clearly there are different options. The ones that are highlighted are the ones that the group decided to take forward.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I just ask, Minister, I believe that now you are not allowed to drive a tractor on a car licence only. If you need to drive a tractor you need to pass a tractor test, is that correct?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No.

The Deputy of St. Martin : It is not?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No. In Jersey, when you pass your car test, you are given category (B) but you are also given another couple of categories, which is (B1) and category (f), which is an agricultural tractor. So you were quite right when you said right at the outset there if a kid passes a car test at 17 they are allowed to drive a car that is up to 3,500 kilograms in weight, towing a trailer that is up to 750 kilograms, but ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

No, actually what I said was at 16, a 16 year-old can pass a test on a tractor, not a trailer.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

You are absolutely right, but that same 17 year-old or any of us around the table who have category (f) on our driving licence can go out and drive a tractor that is 5.5 tonnes, towing something that is 7.5 tonnes behind it.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Sorry, can I just be quite clear, there is no specific tractor test in Jersey now apart from if you are 16 and you want to drive a tractor?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Correct.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Could I clear up they also ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Sorry, Chairman, in Europe there is a tractor test which puts a T on your driving licence. We do not have that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  

Some places in Europe have that. To my knowledge, all agricultural tractors are domestic licences that are granted. You do not find category T/category (f) as a licence being granted by the Directive. I think to my knowledge that is all to do with domestic licences. Because clearly there are not too many people taking an agricultural tractor from France across to England.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, so your current practice is that automatically young drivers passing in a car receive that licence if they are 17?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is the current practice?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: That is the current practice.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is the thing that we as a country can do the same way as other countries can set their own rules about that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can we now go back to this document? There was this working group. Minister, it would be helpful if you could focus us in on what you think are the principal recommendations, not all the detail, which should now be taken forward. To test you out, for example, do you believe there needs to be a change in the age at which young people can drive tractors?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

That is a very good question. Well, obviously one of the recommendations was driving training, which is something that we would be very keen on, but we have not actually formed an opinion on the driving age.

Deputy J.H. Young: That is to be decided?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, so that is one. What about speed restriction? At the moment, we have learnt that they are supposed to be restricted at 30 miles an hour or whatever the kilometres per hour equivalent of that is. Is that something that is going to change?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, as I say, the revised age limit would be similar to other categories. Sorry, what was the question, the towing weight?

Deputy J.H. Young:

In your proposals for this review group that you were a member of, is there proposed to be a change to the speed limit of tractors?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Obviously, as it is at the moment it is 30 miles an hour that would be your maximum speed.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Did the group conclude that that should stay?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That it be maintained, yes.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

It is probably worth clarifying that any tractor designated under T1 has a 40 kilometre per hour limit as is manufactured. You can buy options for a 50 kilometre per hour gearbox installed in a tractor, but our records show that no one has registered a tractor with that modification. Forty kilometres per hour is about 25 miles an hour. Fifty kilometres an hour is just 31.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Would you actually know if any of those tractors were modified?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We would know if you found one going down the 5 Mile Road at 40 miles an hour. [Laughter]

Deputy J.H. Young:

When it comes to the Island do you check them?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We check the tractors. I will qualify that. In respect of the application for registration, if it is a brand new tractor it is treated exactly the same way as a brand new car. The person who is wishing to register it provides us with the documentation from the manufacturer, from the vendor, and that will say it is a T1 tractor. So therefore, as far as we are concerned, unless that person has specifically taken it away somewhere, changed the engine and gearbox, then I would expect that tractor to be a T1 tractor. If it has come in as a second-hand tractor, been previously registered somewhere else, then it will be inspected by the traffic officer to check and make sure that the engine number and the chassis number that is on that vehicle corresponds with its registration document. Its registration document will list both the engine number, the chassis number, and will also say it is a T1 tractor, which means it is restricted to 40 miles an hour.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It is the same thing as if you bought a car, say a VW Beetle, and put a Porsche engine in, it would be illegal because that would not show up on your logbook so you would be making a false ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, so retrofitting would be illegal?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, you are obliged to inform D.V.S. of any modification of that nature.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

A T1 tractor on its registration, does that mean it is actually restricted to 40 kilometres an hour or does it mean that the gearbox that is fitted will travel at 40 kilometres an hour at certain revs and is the tractor limited to that number of revs?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The tractor is limited to 40 kilometres an hour with that 3 kilometre per hour leeway.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yes, so subject to those 2 things - I will get back to you in a minute, Phil - the rest of these review recommendations really seem to me about tidying up the legislation.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Would that be true in removing some of the inconsistencies and complications on it?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Yes, absolutely. Like haulage work should use normal road vehicles with normal diesel.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So the main issue is the age of the driver where the jury is out on that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It was down as we would revise age limits to be similar to other categories.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

But there are other aspects that were considered, like compulsory basic training for a tractor driver in the same way as we have compulsory basic training for motorcyclists, looking at the classification of the vehicles in the same way as we looked at them just now. For example, a person cannot drive an - I was going to call it a 40-footer - artic vehicle until they are 21 years old and have been through graduated licensing.

[15:15]

So I would think the proposal would be to ensure that people are of appropriate responsibility and appropriately trained for driving the vehicles that they are driving on the public roads. What they want to do in the fields I think is entirely up to the agricultural industry itself, but on the public roads from the safety point of view I think we decided as a group that it was wrong that somebody who was 16 years old could drive a tractor and trailer that weighed 12 tonnes, whereas someone who is driving a truck around the road would have to be 21 years old to drive that. That does not seem sensible so we want to regularise that.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So you are going to regularise that, Minister?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: That is the plan, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young: Okay. Phil?

The Connétable of St. John :

Yes, getting back to the use of tractors for non-agricultural use, I see you have haulage work uses normal diesel, I accept all of that, that is no problem. Then turn over your first page, the very top line where it says "raise awareness": "Ensure operators and drivers using agricultural tractors for non-agriculture purposes are aware of the licensing requirements and permitted use uses. Where appropriate P30 exemption licences could be granted, e.g. annual or regularly for towing of large boats." What about for towing of other machines?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If it is in the public's interest then P30s would be considered for that.

The Connétable of St. John :

That is what it is saying, it could be?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes, it has to be ...

The Connétable of St. John :

At the moment that is not the case, is that right? Unless you have adopted it since 2011 when this was ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Adopted what, Constable?

The Connétable of St. John :

That P30s for non-agricultural use would be the norm.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

You cannot use an agricultural tractor for doing anything else other than agricultural work unless ...

The Connétable of St. John :

I am making reference to what you have here in your report.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, and I think what we said was we would raise awareness, which we did. We actually produced a leaflet for that to let people know what the situation was in respect of driving agricultural tractors. What we are saying is we recognise there may be situations where an agricultural tractor is an appropriate vehicle for doing the work and it is in the public's interest for that work to be done. If that is the case, then a P30 licence could be issued to that bit of kit but they have to do it on application rather than it being a generalisation that you can just go ahead and use an agricultural tractor for any haulage work.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Sorry, just to sort of take away from the trailers, but to address P30s, is a P30 then a permit which differs from the law? Because I always associate P30s with width, but it is not.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Absolutely right, Deputy . What it does is it allows a relaxation of aspects of either the construction and use legislation or the lighting legislation.

The Connétable of St. John :

Again back to the question, where they are using it for towing large boats - i.e. I have seen 40 footers towed behind a tractor down to the docks or whatever from people's yards, for instance, when the boat has been out for a refit and that vessel may weigh 10 or 15 tonnes - how do they get over that? Do they need a P30 for that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Connétable of St. John : They would do?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes.

The Connétable of St. John :

This would not need a permit from the Constable?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

As long as it is not on parish by-roads. One of the conditions that is put on every P30 exemption permit is that you have to obtain the permission of the Constable of the parish if you are going to use that parish's roads.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: There also may be limits on timing, et cetera.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If we are going from one of the boat houses in La Collette and travelling up towards the harbour, say the boat was going out on a ship, shall we say, rather than under its own particular steam, and they wished to use what was registered as an agricultural tractor, then the company would apply for a P30, and some of them apply for an annual permit so they can carry out their work. They will apply for that work. The person driving that vehicle will have to have the appropriate licence for driving on the road, not just a category (f) tractor licence. They would have to have a heavy goods licence for doing it and they would have to show that they know how to strap the boat down and ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Is there not an anomaly here where you can drive a tractor without a P30 down a road with an enormous great trailer that weighs X tonnes perfectly legally, but if it is not for agricultural purposes but the tractor and the trailer and the goods and the weight and everything is absolutely identical, you need to have a P30 and to have taken the relevant test?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Absolutely right, and that is what the recommendation of the group was that ...

The Deputy of St. Martin : Is that not just crazy?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, I think what it is saying is that it is recognised there were reasons in the past why people were allowed to drive an agricultural tractor with loads that were much in excess of what someone could tow with a car or a truck. There were reasons in the past why someone of 16 years old was allowed to drive that. What we are saying is perhaps those reasons are out of date. I think that is where the Chairman came in right at the outset.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think I am going to wrap this part up now if we can because I think we have explored this. I think what I am taking from this is there is a need for review in this area. You have had a group already. You have highlighted some principles there and you have made a general case for strengthening the regulations and bringing them in line with modern circumstances. Before I find out what you are going to do about it, I think I want to explore other areas of the Road Traffic Law.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes, could I just say, Chairman, I am not trying to do down the work that has been done because I think this is actually excellent. I think there should be restrictions on young people driving enormous great vehicles and it should be graduated. The point I am making is it just seems a little bit daft to me that you can have a tractor and trailer running up and down a road with 10 tonne of potatoes on it and if you want to drive the same tractor and trailer up and down the road with 10 tonne of concrete blocks on it you need a different licence and a different permit ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: And white diesel.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

That seems very crazy to me.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: But that is what the law says.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I know that is what the law says. I am just saying that it is crazy.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That is what you are saying you are going to look at changing. I want to come back to what you are going to do to take all these actions forward later, but I want to explore to see if there are any other areas of the Road Traffic Law that need review, too, because I cannot believe that this area of tractors is the only one for a law dated 1956. Steve, you wanted to talk about other types of vehicles.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Yes. Minister, this is just general conversation really, but I have been looking through some definitions and what have you. Vehicles excluded from the definition of motor vehicle include electrically assisted pedal cycles.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

We also know when you look through the various laws that you do not need to wear a protective helmet to ride an electrically assisted pedal cycle, and also an electrically assisted pedal cycle can be ridden by anybody over the age of 14. Minister, on the basis that some of these electrically assisted pedal cycles now do enormous speeds, are we looking into doing something about that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It is something that is being looked at but, as you know, the technology is changing by the month really. Originally, they were just small bicycles with a little electric booster just to help you get up hills but it has progressed much further than that.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They are actually restricted in speed. They cannot go any more than 15 miles an hour. That is what the legislation quite clearly says.

Director of Transport:

Can I just clarify? I saw a shaken head there of disbelief. There is a difference again between what is compliant with the law and what you could possibly purchase and import. So the bicycles that are compliant with the law or those that are electrically assisted - so you have to pedal the wheels in order to receive the boost of the motor - those are the ones that are restricted to 15 miles an hour, which is a similar speed to what you can achieve on a bicycle. However, we are aware there are bicycles out there that you can buy in Europe which are not within the law where you can press a button and go faster than that. They are closely related to an electric moped or electrical motorcycle and they would probably come under our legislation as a motorcycle rather than as an electrically assisted bicycle.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They will also have been manufactured in the E.U. as a moped, not as an electrically assisted bicycle.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Surely an electrically assisted motorcycle is not classed as a motor vehicle under the law so, therefore, it does not come under ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

As long as it does not do any more than 15 miles per hour.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It says in the law it cannot do more than 15 miles an hour?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It does say that in the order for electrically assisted bicycles.

Director of Transport:

You have to pedal. It will not run without you pedalling it, so you have to pedal it as well. What it does is make the pedalling actually lighter.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

So a cyclist can ride down the road at 25 miles an hour legally but a cyclist with an electrically assisted motor on his pedal cycle can only do 15?

Director of Transport:

He can cycle as fast as he is capable of cycling, but the motor part of it you are only elevated to 15 miles an hour.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right. Well, are you satisfied with that and are you going to look at doing a review of that?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We have already done our review of that. We did a review of that about 2 years ago.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So you are satisfied the law is right in that area?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The law is compliant with the rest of Europe in respect of that. We are talking about these vehicles are treated as bicycles. No one at the present moment in time has to wear a crash helmet on a bicycle. Anything that goes above that becomes a moped. If you are riding a moped in Jersey, you have to have a licence and you have to wear a crash helmet.

Director of Transport:

You have to use it on the road, not on ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Well, you have cleared that up for us. Steve?

The Deputy of St. Martin : No, that is fine.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Any other types of vehicles, Steve, we want to talk about?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I caught a glimpse on the paper you just gave us, Minister, about towing boats, okay in the vicinity of harbour, beach, but limited road use to as works trucks. It says maximum one kilometre, but it does not mention one kilometre an hour in the works ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, these are the recommendations. That is the options.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Oh, so you are looking to put work trucks up to one kilometre as well, are you?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

What we are saying is that if someone has a boat that they tow by a tractor and they have a legitimate use for it, then that tractor instead of it being registered as an agricultural tractor, would be registered as a works truck and the people would be legally entitled to tow it.

The Connétable of St. John :

Can we get back, please, to a question I asked earlier? We are referring in some of the law to kilometres. We do not have kilometres, we have statute miles in Jersey. When are we going to either change the law that we move everything to kilometres or stick to miles? Because this is crazy.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think this is the wrong body to ask because the decision ...

The Connétable of St. John :

Well, the legislation has been done through your department.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:  

Yes, but the legislation is done under particular requirements and those requirements will be set in another bit of legislation that are not the premise of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay. Any other type of vehicles we want to talk about? Segways, what about them? Do they get covered under the law?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, I am not aware of them being covered under any law.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can they go as fast as they like?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: They are not legal.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I ask why they are not legal, Minister?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Why are they not legal? They do not have type approval.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, I am not aware of anywhere in Europe that has actually approved them as road-going vehicles. I am aware that there are places where they are permitted, applying the directive's term to them, but as far as I am aware there is no place that has ... I am trying to think what the expression was they used for them. In short, anything that looks like a Segway or acts like a Segway, I am not aware of that down in legislation anywhere in ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are you aware that the police use them in America for policing events?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, I have actually seen them. I have seen them in Italy being used by the police in airports.

The Deputy of St. Martin : They are not legal?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I saw a whole load of people using them during the Olympics in 2012 in London.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

That would be on private land then?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: All on private land, yes.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I am sure we have all seen George Bush Junior fall off one, too.

Deputy J.H. Young:

If we saw one driving down King Street, what will we do?

The Connétable of St. John :

Do we stop the Minister that uses it? [Laughter]

Deputy J.H. Young: Right, I think ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, no, seriously, Minister, if they are a 2-wheeled motor vehicle, is there something in the rules there that says they are illegal?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, it does not fit type approval.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They are not covered by the legislation. That has been established. We established that quite some time ago. The arguments for and against Segways are really quite polarised. I bring one. My own view is that they were originally brought out as a means for getting people around in the States, shall we say, on their big, wide pavements. In fact, in the U.S. (United States) the pavement is actually the road. They call it the sidewalk. It was for people going around on sidewalks. Sidewalks in Jersey, pavements, footways in Jersey, are far, far too narrow to have people trundling along on Segways on them. So a normal place for a Segway is actually on the road and in any case there is only about a third of the roads in Jersey actually have a footway.

[15:30]

The majority of roads in Jersey do not have footways at all, and I think I am talking about States main roads here. Very, very few parish by-roads have a ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

We are very clear, Minister, Segways are not legal, you cannot ride them in any public place or on the road.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Correct. If someone does have a mobility problem, of course, there are mobility scooters, which are regulated and lawful.

The Connétable of St. John :

Getting back to Segways, given the town of St. Helier is twinned with Funchal and in Madeira they have Segways all over the place - I came across them on the highways, obviously being Portuguese, yes - therefore, they are permitted in a number of areas. You already mentioned in Italy.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think that is probably an assumption. I think it is probably a similar assumption to people coming here with the bull bars that are illegal. I was not aware that they were legal in Portugal.

The Connétable of St. John :

Well, as I say, I have seen them on the highway, a number of them.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I have seen them. I have seen them in Italy.

The Connétable of St. John : And other places in Europe.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I am going to begin now to, I think, pull the threads together on this discussion because we have had a broad range of discussion about various types of vehicles. Minister, you told us that this law needs reviewing. We have some proposals. I know they have been around for some time, have not surfaced previously. Are you now going to take it forward?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

As I say, we do have other things we are looking at. At the moment, there are various reports coming in. We do not want to cut across each other at the moment.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Just remind us of those then in a nutshell. What are those other ones?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Have you got the ...?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: The Road Safety Strategy, for a start.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Yes, the Road Safety Strategy. That is in the pipeline, which could dovetail with some of these.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Do you have law drafting time for this?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not at the moment, no.

Deputy J.H. Young: Have you asked for it?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Has it been applied for?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Not specifically for the tractors, no.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Not for the tractors but the safety ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, so your timescale for this piece of work, taking forward proposals to bring about these improvements to the law, please, when would you commit to doing this?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think we can commit to the Minister, subject to any further discussion, signing off the bits about tractors and the like within the next few months, but whether we would get to a point where we can get sufficient law drafting time to change some of the other aspects that have been spoken about. Segways, as I say, first of all, I am not aware there is a huge demand on the Island for it, so therefore it is whether ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Okay, so stick with tractors a minute then.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

As I understand it, you get law drafting automatically allowed if it is minor changes to the laws.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: We are not talking about minor.

Deputy J.H. Young:

No, but is tractors minor?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, tractors are not minor. You are going to have regulations as well as orders to do.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, so does that mean we have to wait years for it through the Medium Term Financial Plan and so on, Minister, to get this done?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

I would not say years but there will be a waiting list, yes. I am not sure of the exact time. That would be a matter for the Law Officers.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So would you be prepared to take a report to the States or at least give the States the information of where we are on this?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Yes, that is not a problem but, as I say, we have the Road Safety Strategy coming up so I am not sure if this will be part of it or be 2 separate reports, but as soon as we can.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Is there a money cost to this work as well as well as law drafting time?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Law drafting time, most of the work has been done on this. Director of Transport?

Director of Transport:

There is an officer resource issue. Obviously, the business has to operate as normal because we do not want to see a drop in service, so it is a specialist type of expertise which is required to research law drafting instructions needed for this.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Minister, you have got the Director of D.V.S., obviously. Well, you have a team here, but obviously the Director of D.V.S. is the main expert in all these areas. Can I ask you perhaps, Minister, have you freed up enough time for him to get this work done and freed up time from day-to-day operational responsibility?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, they have a very heavy workload but it is being worked on.

Deputy J.H. Young: So that is a no?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: The answer is no.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well, not at the moment.

The Connétable of St. John :

So would you agree that there is a grey area that needs a review and with proper consultation to do with tractors?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I would suggest the consultation has been done.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Well, this work has been done.

The Connétable of St. John :

But there are still areas that need consultation ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

The Connétable of St. John :

... if you are going to take something into the House. There are grey areas that need to be teased out and resolved, Minister.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, there are minor issues to be resolved, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So subject to those minor issues, you will take this forward but there is a resource implication on the DVS department?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

The DVS department and, of course, Law Officers' time, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think I would like to move on to that subject of resources, if my colleagues are agreeable. Are there any more points in particular about this Motor Traffic Law before we do that?

The Connétable of St. John :

Trikes. Where are we on trikes? Because at one time, you could not bring a trike in and last week at the Holiday for Heroes rally I counted 5 or 6 trikes. A couple came over from Guernsey, et cetera. Some forward, 2 wheels in the front, one at the back, and then the conventional one I saw was the one that came over for the young chap who apparently is seriously paralysed. Is anybody permitted to bring a trike in? Not that a lot of people would want to, but ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The short answer is if you make an application that proves it is in the public's interest, we will consider it and we will test the vehicle. You are quite right, the very first one ... when I went down to D.V.S., there was a point blank: "No, you cannot have a motor tricycle." Motor tricycles, before anybody starts jumping at me about quads, are covered in Jersey legislation. You can have a motor tricycle but I think what was envisaged was in fact the old Bond Bug or the Reliant Robin or the Del Boy type vehicle. It was a car with 3 wheels and a steering wheel, no less. There was a young man who was paraplegic, a motorcyclist, who approached me and said: "Why can we not have motor trikes in the Island?" I looked at what he was proposing to do and I felt, under the circumstances, it served the public's interest to allow this young man to have a motor tricycle. It was going to be done professionally. It was a Harley Davidson. It was within the weight limits and it had proper hand controls. He is not capable of keeping himself on the motorcycle; he has to have a seat belt on it. So that was the first one. I approved that. As it turned out, a few other people were interested in these things. One, again somebody who could not keep their balance on a 2-wheel bike, he was the next one, but unfortunately that gentleman died before he could benefit from the use of that bike. Then one of the companies who sell bikes approached us about a vehicle called the Can-Am, which is a Canadian motorcycle, the one with the 2 wheels at the front and one at the back, which was an extremely good bit of kit and it seemed a bit off not to allow people who were keen to ride these things. It seemed to be in the public's interests that someone who was capable of buying one of these machines - because they are not cheap; they are about £20,000 I think - why should they be denied the opportunity to use these vehicles? But we put quite hard restrictions on them. They are very, very safe vehicles. They do not have seat belts because naturally it is not in a cage or anything like that, but we insist that the people who have them, rather than having just a car licence, they have to have a heavy motorcycle licence and anyone that is riding on the vehicle has to wear a crash helmet. Those are conditions that are set down in the conditions of licence. The only one I can think of lately was the Renault Twizy that came in. That is another one done along similar lines, albeit it has 4 wheels and it has been done as a car.

The Connétable of St. John :

So it remains in your department's domain of what vehicles are or are not allowed on our roads given that you made the decision obviously because of the disabled person but since then you have decided that the Canadian one and the Renault, was it, you just said? The Twizy?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If it is in the public's interest. My recollection is, Minister, that we did write a report to you, did we not, to make sure that it was all above board and we have done the same with other aspects of it, so once the policy is set ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I am just a bit upset. I mean, I had not even thought about this but you say that you allowed the Canadian bike because it was a good bit of kit and it was not cheap. But if I am Mr. Kawasaki or Mr. Suzuki or Mr. Honda, I am going to be pretty upset. You know, you are not allowing me to sell my 3-wheel bikes in Jersey because they are not good bits of kit or they are cheap.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I have not said that we would not allow a 3-wheeled Kawasaki or a 3-wheeled Suzuki.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: I am not sure where that has come from.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Has nobody applied to put a 3-wheel Kawasaki ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: No.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

All right. I apologise. I am sorry.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So just to clear this up, presumably those decisions are made by the Head of DVS?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes. As Inspector of Motor Traffic.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Was it made by you under delegated or ministerial authority?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, well, to an extent. It is ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Again, the decision to relax the construction and use legislation or lighting legislation is the Inspector of Motor Traffic's decision.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But additional types of vehicles, such as we are discussing here, is that in that category? Is that a delegated decision?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If there is an in principle about the type of vehicle, yes, I would take that to the Minister so that I have the comfort that the Minister is happy, because people will appeal.

Deputy J.H. Young:

No, that is fine. That is okay and I would like to say that I think it is excellent that we have allowed this flexibility for people with special needs. So I think that is something that I am very impressed with, having heard that this afternoon.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: There have been people in the past ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

But I take Deputy Luce 's point about the consistency issue.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, I know any number of dairy farmers that would be delighted to hear that because dairy farmers, cattle farmers, livestock farmers would love to use not only quad bikes but trikes as well, so I am encouraged.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: But that would be for agricultural use.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: On their land? It would not need permission.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Well, no, on the road.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Sorry, no, no, no. If it is for agricultural use then there should not really be a great difficulty.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can we just close the session?

The Connétable of St. John :

No, can we open that up, please, because ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

How can you differentiate between a farmer riding a motor tricycle up the road and a non-farmer riding a motor tricycle up the road?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Because presumably the farmer is using it for agricultural purposes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If he decides to go to the beach on a Saturday afternoon?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: He is breaking the law.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think we could be bogged down in this discussion for a long time.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I am sorry, Deputy , but that is what the law says.

The Connétable of St. John :

What? On a motorbike? Well, on a trike?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: The law says: "Agricultural vehicle."

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: We are talking quad bikes here.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But if it is a motor tricycle, which is bought as a motor tricycle and then used for agriculture, it does not make it an agricultural vehicle.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No, I did say it would be dependent on what the public interest was. Now, what you are saying to me is that somebody buys this vehicle to use on the farm. Why would they do anything other than buy it as an agricultural vehicle? You do not have to have a P30 or anything like that then.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

It is a bit like saying you buy a Land Rover and then use it on the farm. It does not make it an agricultural vehicle.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

The Land Rover comes in with its own type approval anyway because it is a motorcar.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Well, okay, a Toyota 4-wheel drive then.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Minister, do you see this area of the law needs any change? What I am hearing here is that there is discretion with the Director of D.V.S. there to make these decisions. Is there anything in the law to clarify this other than saying: "This is the rules for agricultural vehicles and other types of vehicles need this approval." Is there anything else other than that?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Apart from the tractors, no.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right. Is this something that you will at least take away for further discussion, even though ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, yes, of course we will discuss anything that is brought up. No problem at all.

Deputy J.H. Young:

What I have heard is that there is discretion being exercised but you are at the moment using the public interest as the criteria ...

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: That is the only criteria.

Deputy J.H. Young: Is that in the law?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Yes. That is the only criteria in the law.

Deputy J.H. Young:

The public interest has been exercised where there is personal disability and personal special needs, which I find very praiseworthy.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

There are people who have had knee or hip problems that have bought these Canadian trikes and are very happy with them because they cannot support the weight of a motorcycle.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Do you not feel, Minister, there is a need to clarify this in the law? Because I respectfully hear what the officers are saying but it says quite clearly "motor tricycle", and if the intention was to be a 3-wheeled car or 3-wheeled work vehicle or what have you, do you not think it should say that? Because it says "tricycle" in the title, it mentions mopeds and it mentions other things in the definition.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

The motor tricycle designation turned into Reliant Robins and Bond Bugs and the like as a workaround on the law through the 1960s and 1970s when people mainly had motorcycle licences and did not have car licences. Those vehicles have been phased out through type approval, crash testing and various other things. Motor tricycles now, I am not aware of any agricultural specific motor tricycle. The early, early tricycles that were off road were quite unstable and it has moved predominantly to quad bikes now.

[15:45]

I think you have to be careful to want everything in law because then it does not allow any flexibility, which I believe within D.V.S. we have offered that flexibility. I think there is always this area where the challenge of: "Is it in the public interest?" is a very good challenge. The difficulty with it is it puts a lot of pressure on D.V.S. and the leader of that organisation but also it gives the allowance to appeal to the Minister. So there is structure in there. I do not think it is always the answer people want, but I think what it does do is it means there are good decisions being made. Whether the tricycle that has been licensed is made in Canada or in Japan, it is of a standard which is a full manufactured standard to type approval. So I think you just have to get that balance right.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So will you be following those principles in your review of the law to try and get a flexible structure in the future that can respond in a clearer way?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I believe so, yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Because I think what is coming across to me is we have a law which is very prescriptive, which is dated, and some of it has a lot of anomalies between different parts of it. If there is a clearer structure in the law, it will enable these decisions to have a clearer framework.

Director of Transport:

It is imperative because at the moment there is an evolutionary race for what will be the vehicle of the future and every year more and more different vehicles are coming on to the marketplace, so you need to be prescriptive about issues such as safety but the other aspects of it, you need more flexibility. So, for instance, you might want to be prescriptive about the vehicle but you are not necessarily that interested in how it is powered. It could be electrical, it could be fuelled, it could be hybrid, it could be compressed gas. Those other aspects that do not impinge on the actual use or safety of the vehicle are not so important.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right, so if you could design a new law now, you would build in flexibility for all those things?

Director of Transport: Yes.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: I think you have to.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That sounds like a piece of work there, Minister, to be done that will pick out the points that ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I ask if there is a difference in the flexibility between quad bikes and motor tricycles?

Director of Transport: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

There is no flexibility in quad bikes because they are not legal?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

No. Well, the way the legislation is written, there is a motorcycle which has less than 3 wheels.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Three, yes.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There is a motor tricycle and there is a motorcar. There is nothing about a quad bike.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Yes.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

What I think we have to get to is a point where a motorcycle, if it is a sit-astride vehicle, they should be less than ... I am not aware of anything that is manufactured with more than 4 wheels, but a motorcycle should be something that is a road-going vehicle with 4 wheels or less. That would cover the quad bike, it would cover the trike and it would cover the 2-wheeled motorcycle.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So that is another thing you would put in the new law if you could write it tomorrow?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

At the minute, a quad bike can only be considered as a motorcar or as an agricultural vehicle. That is why I was saying there is a difference ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes, that is the distinction.

Deputy J.H. Young:

We are progressing. [Laughter]

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

They were originally designed as agricultural vehicles.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Can we wrap this area up?

The Connétable of St. John :

One second. While we are on that, do we follow the U.K. or Europe on all our type approved vehicles? So I am thinking back several years, probably before your time, when they brought the Smart car over and they would not register it, some years back.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It was before my time. I do not know what the arguments were about that one.

The Connétable of St. John :

Anything that is type approved in England or in Europe, i.e. within the European Union, that can circulate anywhere in the European Union, do we follow and allow all of those vehicles? Would they be permitted to come into Jersey because they are type approved without having to get the permit from you?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

In most circumstances, yes. I could think of the situation where, say, for example, we had a vehicle that was coming in I think from Japan that did have modified type approval in the U.K. because it only had a speedometer that did miles per hour. But it was quite a small volume vehicle; it was also a vehicle that was very economical. There are a few other quirks about it as well, but our legislation says that the speedometer has to be able to show you in both miles per hour and kilometres per hour. Not necessarily at the same time, but it should be in miles per hour and kilometres per hour. Now, this vehicle could only show one and we obviously wanted it to show miles per hour, going back to the bit earlier on. At one time, it had been manufactured that it could show both and we were querying why it could not and it was something to do with who the electrical manufacturer was. Again, we took that to the Minister and said: "Look, it is in the public's interest that this vehicle is available because the sustainable transport policy is looking for smaller, more economical vehicles. It would seem crass not to allow this vehicle to circulate in Jersey because it does not show things in both kilometres per hour and miles per hour.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Does that clear it up for ...?

The Deputy of St. Martin :

But the Constable would not drive it unless it was showing in miles per hour, clearly. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. John : It depends where I am driving.

Deputy J.H. Young:

I want to get to the subject of resources because there have been a wide range of discussions. Some specific things you are ready to review but you do not have the resources, but you have agreed to take some reports forward about that, which is tractors and so on. Other things need a bigger scale review of this law, which we have spoken about, to give flexibility. Now, resources to do that. How are the resources at the department at the moment? Are they adequate to keep up with what you have to do with day-to-day work?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

In simple answer, it is only through the remarkable efforts of the Director and the amount of hours he puts in that he keeps up with the day to day. D.V.S. is a strange organisation that deals with many facets that a lot of people do not see. Regulating the taxi industry is a constant demand. Regulating P30 vehicles, licensing vehicles that are coming in, doing all the other things in terms of licensing and testing of people and all the other facets, it is a massive piece of work undertaken by a small department, which is pretty much unloved as well. So the chances of the Director and his team getting more resources is fairly unlikely in times of austerity and politically it is not very sexy to give more money to D.V.S. because regulatory functions tend to be slightly unloved.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Is the current work up to date? Are there long delays in driving tests and vehicle tests and so on?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

No, but that is down to the virtue of the Director's ability and the ability of the team to manage those issues. We lack resources at a calibre of the Director to look at these issues with the mind of the Director and also to be able to provide instructions for legislation. Then, in terms of the Law Officers and their function, their priorities at the moment are focused on economy and other big challenges like housing and various other things. Tractor laws drop down the priority list, I am afraid.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But it is not just tractor laws, is it, Minister?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: No, I am just putting the case as it is.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are we happy, Minister, as we move on to different sources of power and different types of fuels that our legislation is going to allow us to do what we need to in the coming years? I think in potentially 4 or 5 years we may not have any leaded or unleaded fuel for that matter. We may be looking at other types of fuel. Do we need any major work to allow those types of vehicles to come into the Island? I presume if they have proper braking and steering systems, they are okay.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It is all down to type approval, but obviously it all comes before the Director of D.V.S. and if anyone was unhappy with the Director's decision it could come to me. But as yet nothing has troubled me in the last year that I have been Minister.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

With the major manufacturers embracing electrical power, hybrids, potentially some of the other energy sources, it becomes an easier job because it fits into the type approval mechanisms within Europe, which we piggy back on the back of. We need to almost get the Director off-line to do this work and review all these laws, enabling him to then instruct the Law Officers to keep this fit for purpose and up to speed for the next 50 years, because this has done over 50 years for the Island and served it very well.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So to do that work, how long are we talking? A year's work, 6 months' work?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

I dare not even ask the Director, but I will. [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. John :

Can I ask a question, Minister? Things have moved on considerably since all these laws were put on place, whether it is the Taxi Law or whether it is the Road Traffic (Jersey) Law 1956. Is it not time, because things have moved on, machinery has moved on, et cetera, that the side of agriculture falls away and everything comes under the general law?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: That is interesting.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Interesting point. I think that would be very difficult because obviously agricultural equipment has very specific uses, so I think it would be advisable to keep those 2 items separate for the time being.

The Connétable of St. John :

I will stop you there. So does JCB, so does ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Yes. Well, they are multi-use vehicles.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

I think your point is excellent in that there is this greyness between what is one vehicle and what is another, and I also think the reasons the agricultural industry was excluded from these laws has perhaps disappeared now. It was probably in 1956 a very powerful agricultural lobby, which made sure that the laws did not apply to it. But now I think you are absolutely right and how you dovetail that in would be another 6 months' work for the Director of D.V.S., probably.

Deputy J.H. Young:

But you began this session by saying all the arguments for you having this responsibility were to do with sustainability and sustainable transport and so on.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Yet what you are telling us is that there is this job to do but you cannot do it because it is unloved and you do not have the resources.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Well, what I am saying ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

What is the size of your budget, Minister? How much are we talking here? I mean, £25 million, your budget? Something that like?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: We have a £55 million budget.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That includes capital. Revenue budget, how much is that?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: but of that, £55 million revenue budget.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Right. Well, that seems to be quite a large budget.

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: It is.

Deputy J.H. Young:

Are you telling us there is nowhere in there that you can find the resource to get this work done?

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

Well, we have £1.5 billion worth of infrastructure to maintain, so it is ...

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

We do have a bit of a plan. The difficulty is that we have to look at succession planning, we have to look at freeing the Director of D.V.S.' time up, and we have to look at making sure that we have a department which is sustainable into the future. The priorities that we face are major and this is an essential piece of work but lots of other things T.T.S. does is essential as well. We have had a tough winter; it did not stop raining for 4 months, followed by massive amounts of snow and ...

Deputy J.H. Young:

Should we transfer the service back to Home Affairs then to get it done? You said that the reason why it was T.T.S. was because of the ...

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

Just to bear that in mind, I think there has been more investment in D.V.S. since it has come to T.T.S. than it ever did at Home Affairs, I am afraid, but wherever you put it, there are going to be other priorities.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So it has gained resource in that time?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services: Well, it has since I have been here.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

It has gained resource in terms of funding for things, but from the likes of ... you were saying about Home Affairs. Home Affairs was the organisation that did away with the law review officer post. There used to be a person employed at D.V.S. and that was his job, was to look at laws that were operating within D.V.S.

Deputy J.H. Young:

So they got us into this mess?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

He disappeared in 2002, 2003, and was never replaced. D.V.S. at one point in time had something like about 23 staff. There are now, I think, 17 members of staff, 2 of which are part-time and that is where we are just now. The people at D.V.S. are at full tilt virtually all the time. What you are looking for is something to do work as well as a day job, and I think that is what the Chief Officer is trying to say. He is trying to find ways of doing that but it is extremely difficult at the present moment in time.

The Connétable of St. John :

Would it be helpful then if whatever recommendations come out of here, one of them comes out that more money needs to be put into your department in the Medium Term Financial Plan so as to give you the additional manpower or funding that you require to bring these laws up to date?

Chief Officer, Transport and Technical Services:

Yes, I do not disagree with that. I think one caveat we have to put on that is getting the right calibre of people to do that work because if you look at what you require in terms of being able to update these laws in terms of traffic, it is a very difficult person to find.

Director of Transport:

You need a paralegal mind but someone who can also get their head around the engineering side of things, and at this point in time we are thinking mainly about mechanical issues. If you go completely blue sky and you think about the Google car which is circulating in Nevada, how does that get incorporated in the fullness of time? Transport is an area where there is going to be a tremendous amount of change over the coming decades.

[16:00]

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think you have convinced me that there is an engineering component in the thing, but I think the regulatory side must be strong as well.

Director of Transport: Yes, absolutely.

Deputy J.H. Young:

That requires this combination of mindsets and I think what the Constable suggested sounds to me a good idea. Do you want to add ...? Because I am going to wrap up very shortly the decision of getting this work done. I am anxious that this should not just be a theoretical discussion, that something comes out of this.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

I was going to mention vehicles that are not under the direct control of the driver, like automatic parking and stuff like that and braking and ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: It is very, very hard to ...

The Deputy of St. Martin :

You do not have an issue with that, do you? There are not little bits in there ...

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services:

It is very hard to look over the horizon to see what is coming but obviously the team is abreast with all the latest developments.

Director of Transport:

There are some insurance issues, are there not?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes. The point is that these systems all have to work. Unless you have a complete and utter shut down when one of these systems fails, I think you are always going to have to have someone in control of that vehicle or be able to control that vehicle who knows what they are doing. People have been inventing things that are virtual eyes so that blind people can drive. Now, that is absolutely terrific, but I think you have to instil the confidence in everybody else that is on the road because we are all like that, are we not? We all think we are great drivers, but we want the other person to be a good driver as well.  

Deputy J.H. Young:

I think you have left us with some good food for thought there. So, I think that unless my colleagues have any more questions I am going to close the session. Thank you all for your input and being open and straight with us. So thank you all for coming along.

The Minister for Transport and Technical Services: Thank you, Chairman.

Director of Transport: Thank you very much.

Deputy J.H. Young:

We can close the session.

[16:02]