Education and Home Affairs Panel - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Education - Transcript - 29 February 2016

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Education

MONDAY, 29th FEBRUARY 2016

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman) Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John

Witnesses:

The Minister for Education Chief Education Officer Executive Officer

[15:31]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the members of the public and/or the media in the gallery over there. It is nice to see people observing. Please turn your phones off before we begin and feel free to leave at any time if your question has been answered or not interested in, so if you could do so quietly. Welcome to you, Minister, and his department. My name is Deputy Louise Doublet . I am Deputy for St. Saviour . This is my panel, the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. I will let them introduce themselves.

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

Tracey Vallois, Deputy of St. John .

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier : Sam Mézec , Deputy for St. Helier .

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman): Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour .

The Minister for Education:

Deputy Rod Bryans, St. Helier , the Minister for Education.

Chief Education Officer:

Justin Donovan, Chief Education Officer.

Executive Officer:

Tracey Mourant, Executive Officer in charge of communications.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We have our officer, Mick Robbins with us today. Okay, so timings; we usually aim for an hour and a half to 2 hours, do we not? We do have a lot of questions, we will try and keep it succinct, so 5.30 p.m. ideally. Do you have to be away by any specific time?

The Minister for Education: No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Anybody? We are all going to try and keep this as short as possible. Minister, have you read and understood the statement in front of you, hopefully?

The Minister for Education: I have indeed, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Vice-Chair, Deputy Maçon, would you like to take the first question?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, thank you. Mr. Minister, the Jersey Premium provides for children whose families are on income support, is there any differentiation applied regarding the ability of these students?

The Minister for Education:

Quite simply, no. It is based on financial circumstances, which I think are dictated or delineated by the work that we have done with the Social Security Department and ourselves, and it is sort of recognised in that situation.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay, when that piece of work was done what was the department's reaction to the extent at which it applied at schools?

Chief Education Officer:

We were not surprised. We think it will cover about 18 per cent of the pupil population, once we are up and running and it is broadly where we thought it would be. There are some children in our selective schools who do not get pupil premium but very small numbers. But the idea of this is not to compensate for ability, it is to compensate for other issues. You could have a very able young person from a vulnerable family and the idea of the pupil premium is to make sure they get an A star, not just an A or a B, but the data was broadly what we were expecting.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay, thank you. Is there any additional support to match the Jersey Premium from children of middle-Jersey who are of lower ability?

Chief Education Officer:

No, the pupil premium has absolutely nothing to do with ability. It is purely to do with financial circumstances of family and there are other supports in place obviously for children who are struggling but this is purely and simply to make up for vulnerabilities due to financial issues, nothing else.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think what Deputy Maçon meant was when he said middle-Jersey, we understand that to be the kind of middle-income bracket; so children from that middle-income bracket. Is there anything for them?

Chief Education Officer:

No, this is purely based on children from families who are in receipt of benefit.

The Minister for Education:

Having said that, we do have things like Every Child Our Future that is a literacy programme, which is being supported by the private sector and that sort of indicates that we understand what were our priorities.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Then just to ask within that, is there any scope that parents who might have a little extra be able to buy aspects of extra support within our schooling system?

The Minister for Education:

I think once the Jersey Premium begins to take hold you will see that it benefits everybody, it is not just those particular pupils. If you are putting extra teaching staff in or you are identifying your particular problem, everybody will benefit within the classroom. At this moment in time, no, I do not think it would be anything that you are suggesting.

Executive Officer:

Just to clarify, the money goes directly to the school, it does not go to the parents.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think Deputy Vallois wants to

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask, you mentioned the work with the Social Security Department, what type of work was that in order to get to this point?

Chief Education Officer:

It was simply to share data on the family income. The tricky issue we have is that families have to be here for 5 years obviously to receive social security benefits and, of course, it is too long to wait. What we are doing with Social Security is taking the criteria they use and applying it to families who have moved to the Island straightaway, so the children will get pupil premium from day one, even if they are not in receipt of benefits. We have to work very, very closely with Social Security; they have been excellent and been really very helpful. We have had to share data and sign service level agreements and make sure we can share that data in a protected way.

The Minister for Education:

A lot of the work is predicated on the way the U.K. (United Kingdom) had already done what they had done, so we were able to look at that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Of the 80 per cent that that applies to, how many of the less than 5-years students does that apply to?

Chief Education Officer:

I would have to go back and check. I do not have that data.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

If you could provide that, that would be great, thank you.

The Deputy of St. John :

What confidence do you have then in terms of the data from Social Security being the right data? With all the changes that have happened to income support since 2008, what confidence do you have that that is the correct data to use?

Chief Education Officer:

We are confident that it is accurate but we have to use whatever data is available to us and that is the most accurate and most up-to-date data and that is what we are using. We have written to well over 2,000 families inviting them to participate in the pilot because we ask their permission first. That letter to them sets out why they have been given this additional resource, or their children have, and only 40 have intimated that they do not want to participate. The vast majority are participating. That is a higher strike rate than the U.K.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You need the parents' permission to give extra money to the school, why do you need the permission?

Chief Education Officer:

Funny, I was meeting this morning with the secondary heads, it is probably worth making this clear, the money goes to the school but it is targeted at a particular pupil. One particular pupil to make progress might just need some additional support with reading and writing and that will sort of be funded. Others might need access to the curriculum in terms of help to go on the school field trips. Others might need help just making the money will be spent on the particular needs of the individual child, which means we have to get a lot of detailed data on each individual child. We want to make sure that when we are having those conversations we have parental support. As the

Minister was saying, if you take Janvrin School, for example, which is one of our pilot schools, there will be a number of pupils in there who will benefit from a family support worker. The school might invest in a family support worker to work with a group of families, not just one, in another school and they might just have one or 2 children with pupil premium and, therefore, it will be much more targeted. But the idea is not to give the schools extra money to do interesting things with it, it is to target particular children to unlock the curriculum and make sure learning is accessible to them.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is very clear, thank you. Just going back to the 40 children that the parents have not given consent, is there some way that you could still give the children that support without the parents' consent? It seems a shame for those children to not have it.

Chief Education Officer:

They will still get support but we would much rather work with the parents. It is also a way of involving parents in their children's education.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Will you be trying to build

The Minister for Education:

I think the point is we will, and going back to Deputy Vallois' question, I think teachers, and heads in particular, will know there is a direct correlation between the information that they have and the information that Social Security has, so they can identify very quickly where those areas are. If there is any kind of dislocation, so one having something on the list and the other did not, we would identify that very quickly.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The parents who have not given consent you will be maybe going back and talking to them and asking again.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, the whole point of us having a pilot is to get out all these little wrinkles and identify what we can and cannot do. The director is quite right, we want to deal with the permissions of the parents.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, okay. Did you have something

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Yes. The criteria you have set then for kids from families that are in receipt of some sort of benefits, do you anticipate that that will be the long-term criteria for this or do you foresee a situation, once the system when it is up and running and on its feet essentially, where maybe some kids from families that are not in receipt of benefits but are perhaps just on the limit and could benefit from having extra support, do you perceive that there could be something that ends up in that direction one day?

The Minister for Education:

I think that is right and in fact this goes back to what I just said about the pilot. That is the whole point of running a pilot and having a prototype like this is beginning to look at those areas and see where it is most effective and where it is not.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Okay, thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Children who are on the cusp, they might be able to be included in the future, is that the case?

Chief Education Officer:

It depends on the budget. Basically, it is a balance, so we have taken the overall budget and if you spread it to too many children the amount of money you are spending per child does not make any impact. If you reduce the numbers too and spend a lot of money but you do not get to enough kids and we have gone for a balance. What we are hoping in the first year is to crack something that the U.K. never did in its pupil premium and that is that the assumption with the formula is that all children need broadly the same amount of support. But we will have some children who might just need a little bit of help, cost a few hundred pounds and others might need more intense support. We are hoping to get more sophisticated with the model but we have to start somewhere, so we are going to keep it simple and get the pilot up and running.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. Anyone else want to Okay, Deputy Vallois.

The Deputy of St. John :

What is the Minister doing within the schools to combat child obesity?

The Minister for Education:

Sorry, I thought you were going to go on to next little bit so that the question never mind.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

We covered that. Mr. Minister, was there anything else you would like to tell us with regard to the first question then?

The Minister for Education:

No. [Laughter] I think there are 2 little bits below that question, Deputy , and I just thought you

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Which question?

The Minister for Education:

The one you just asked, number 2, so I thought

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Right.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

The Minister for Education: That is fine, that is all right.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think it was maybe sent inadvertently.

The Deputy of St. John :

What we sent was the first question and then

The Minister for Education: Yes, that is fine, okay.

The Deputy of St. John :

We will find out if there is any difference. That is why you are answering the question.

The Minister for Education:

Okay. Now I understand how this works.

The Deputy of St. John :

Then we can find out after.

The Minister for Education:

All right, okay. Yes, obviously this is not unique to Jersey, this is a global problem and it is a lot to do with the socioeconomic situation that we find ourselves in. We have a natural healthy eating policy throughout all schools. We teach how to cook within our P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social, Health Education). We talk about nutrition. We have nutritional standards within canteens at the schools. We run breakfast clubs. We have invited in extra facilities like caring cooks, as an example, which, again, is focused on nutrition and teaching children how to eat, healthy eating. Then behind that we have things like the physical literacy programme that the Assistant Minister, Constable Pallett, is promoting, which is about focusing on giving confidence to children to keep moving and to keep active and not to lead sedentary lives. Between those 2 sorts of skills we think we have covered the educational sort of remit on that area.

Chief Education Officer:

Can I just make a point here? I am being defensive of our schools here but the wider issue is not just schools, that we do not deliberately set out to fatten up our children as they come through the school gates and we do always have a fail. But it is a wider issue in terms of, I think, tackling the obesity issue and we need to educate parents as much as the children. I think the children are increasingly better informed about nutrition than the older population on the Island. I think it is a bigger issue than just schools.

The Minister for Education:

Equally, to talk about the sort of cross-departmental thing, we are working with Health on the new food strategy that we are looking at in some context.

[15:45]

The Deputy of St. John :

Do you know if there is any difference between town and country, Minister?

The Minister for Education:

I think that it is the very fact that you have a large population within St. Helier and, again, it goes back to the socioeconomic factors. If you have reduced incomes you tend eat less healthier food, I think that seems to have been demonstrated. But, again, they are walking into the same sort of schools and the same sort of environments, the teachers the same sort of background, to do with nutrition and they are walking into a situation where physical exercise is promoted.

Executive Officer:

The sports strategy targeted the town schools, that is Fit for the Future sports strategy, identified town schools that have fewer opportunities to get out and in terms of socioeconomics are less likely to be running around in the countryside. There are programmes at certain schools run by the community sports team

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Does that still happen?

Executive Officer: Yes, it is still going, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Executive Officer:

Yes, the sports strategy is still funded.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I thought it had been cut back at some point.

Chief Education Officer: No, not yet.

The Minister for Education:

Not that particular aspect, no. I think there have been cuts but not in relation to that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is the specialist teachers, is it, going into town schools?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

Executive Officer: Yes.

Chief Education Officer:

They get into all schools but they very much target town schools.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I assume from the answers you do not actively register in terms of identifying children, the difference in children being obese in certain criteria schools or the socioeconomic situation of the schools?

The Minister for Education:

No, we do not identify that and in fact it was quite fortunate that I visited a school this morning, a primary school, and asked the question in lieu of coming here and their answer was we have very few children in that circumstance. I think, again, it goes back to how quickly teachers are in training to pick these sort of things up. They then focus them on healthy eating. We have these little free- food Friday things that is to do with fruit and all that sort of thing. All of that sort of aspect of it is really accommodated for.

Chief Education Officer:

Our Health colleagues are briefing all of our heads later this week, Wednesday in fact, on the outcomes of this work because this may have to come from Health, and they regroup their data around schools, so they said also in the health survey, and all heads are being briefed on that. Rather than have it on an agenda item or a meeting we have a separate briefing just on this on Wednesday.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If we wanted that data, could that be provided, seeing that

Executive Officer:

It is on the States website, it was a Health Department report.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But broken down by the different schools or town and country schools.

Executive Officer: Yes, it is there.

Chief Education Officer: Yes, it is all on the website.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is there, okay. Do you want to ask You mentioned, I think you said healthy schools policy, did you say

The Minister for Education: The healthy eating.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Healthy eating policy.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask you about nutrition standards within things like schools that have canteens and the breakfast clubs and maybe nurseries and any times when there are snacks being provided? Do you have nutritional standards that you give

Chief Education Officer: We do.

The Minister for Education: We do, absolutely, yes.

Executive Officer:

We use this, which is the U.K. healthy food standards and I give you a link to this. It has got my scribbling all over it but it is exactly what they use in the U.K. That applies to all school canteens that are contracted out to Capsicum and there are a few school canteens that are run internally, so that the standards will be the same across all of them.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, great. That is the canteens, what about breakfast clubs because I know sometimes they are quite ad hoc, are they not, the breakfast clubs?

Chief Education Officer:

It applies to any food that any school provides children for any reason, so nutritional standards of any food that we provide on our premises.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, okay. How do you ensure that the breakfast clubs are following this and how do you support them to follow this?

The Minister for Education:

We have a health and safety officer who looks at those kind of things, as much as anything else. But just to follow on from that point, you were making about breakfast clubs, we have initiatives within some of the breakfast clubs, or one in particular that I am thinking of, where what they do is not only do they have breakfast clubs for the children but they bring the parents in to witness and observe the kind of food that is served and the way in which the children eat it and is dealt with. That is really a class initiative to show people the best way to deal with these things.

The Deputy of St. John :

What are the risks with scaring children into things like eating disorders?

The Minister for Education:

I am not sure I can answer that. I do not know that there are. In terms of the context that we have just given, which is the nutritional stuff and teaching children how to eat well using good food, I do not know that there are risks related to the kind of teachings that we have. Again, it goes back to if there are any concerns that there was not any good eating from the children and all that, any concerns about the welfare or the nutrition of the child, the teacher would pick that up quite quickly.

Chief Education Officer:

Our P.S.H.E. programme for secondary schools was written with that risk in mind and it is quite balanced in its approach with sections in there and getting the young people to look after themselves in general and that is one of the issues dealt with.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, anyone else? No, okay, let us move on. Okay, I would like to ask you about the Bridge, please, and I think it is widely acknowledged that the services there have been very successful and have had a very positive impact. I am aware that I have questioned you on this before. Are you looking to expand the services to the east or west of the Island?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. I mean the Bridge is really a private-sector run organisation with that sector. We pay for one particular individual who works within the Bridge and certainly you know that I volunteered for Brighter Futures in the past and know intimately the people involved in that. I would love to see something out west. I think it is always a consideration as we move forward, you know the budget constraints and what we are faced with. We have obviously put in the Family Centre in Samarès,

which has been very effective and we would like to replicate that but that is going to take some time. I think, again, it is still early days in terms of the information we are getting from that but the process has been well accepted.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

How much would you need in terms of funding to establish one in the west, say?

The Minister for Education:

I think it would be a combination of finding premises, finding the people to sort of manage that. Again, it is one of those cross-departmental things, we would have to look and speak to Health and Social Services to make sure that we have the right fit.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, I think when I questioned the Minister for Homes Affairs with regards to the 1,001 Days because obviously that is like under her remit, she said that: "The action plan for 1,001 Days needs to go to C.A.V.A. (Children and Vulnerable Adults) but the positioning of children in family centres around the Island is most certainly an issue that is on that draft plan." It felt to me like it was moving forward.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is it moving forward in your

The Minister for Education:

On a weekly basis I am in touch with Dr. Helen Miles who is heading up the taskforce. I know that there is a sort of draft document that is being put together as we speak and it is in relation to loads of things that we are doing. I think the acceptance and the creation of the 1,001 Days set up is going to be fantastic but, yes, that is the facts on that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Perhaps you would have details on

The Minister for Education:

Yes, as soon as I know myself I think you will get it.

The Deputy of St. John : Realistically, will it happen this term?

The Minister for Education:

I would not expect it to happen this term. If it were at all possible it would be late in the term I have to say. I think with regard to the west of our Island our focus is on Les Quennevais School at this point in time, so I do not want to spread myself too thin and fighting too many battles on too many fronts. But certainly, yes, it is something that is on the 1,001 Days taskforce.

Executive Officer:

We were able to set up the Family Centre at Samarès because the N.S.P.C.C. (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) moved out of the building, which was a perfect opportunity and I think all parties spotted that very quickly and used that as an opportunity to create something specifically for that community and the families that live around there. There is this unique set of circumstances.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes. Have you been seeking maybe private individuals to donate premises, if that would make it more viable?

The Minister for Education:

Really the question, we have changed the policy to some extent with regards to the way we deal with the private sector. I think both the director and I have had visits from several financial institutions offering different services of one kind or another. Our focus has always been to say to them: "Rather than you telling us what you would like to do with a skill, we would like you to come in and tell you the areas of concern that we have" and then illustrating the sort of thing you have been talking about with 1,001 Days and see if we can marry that sort of situation up. But, yes, I mean if through this process today it gets recorded by the press that we are looking for premises out west of the Island, yes, that would be fantastic.

Chief Education Officer: Many a volunteer. [Laughter]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That would be ideal now on this

Chief Education Officer:

On the funding, a lot in the plan you referred to, you will see in the right-hand corner it says: "Yet to be funded." There is an awful lot of it and this is one of them. It does not require huge sums of money, other than a building and somebody to organise it because what we have done at Samarès is take existing services and just kind of locate them so they are more efficient, more convenient to families and less threatening. The running costs are not that high in terms of the savings we then get from working well with some vulnerable families. It is just the start-up costs that is the problem.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If you had a building, how much would you need? If you had the premises, what would your costs be to establish this centre?

The Minister for Education: I could not say.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, I mean in the region of £200,000. It is not an awful lot of money because what you do then is you draw on existing services and by making it more convenient for parents, particularly mums with prams and more than one kid. If you just make it easy to get to you tend to get to not only more families but the kind of family you would not get to before. It is finding the time to do it and the building to do it at; that is the main cost, is the building.

The Minister for Education:

I think that is a very good answer. When we were looking at the Brighter Future situation where we brought a presentation to the States, the figure that was being looked for at that point in time from Wendy Hurford was about £250,000.

Chief Education Officer:

She probably asked that thinking she would get knocked [Laughter]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just something that has occurred to me, I know that the St. Brelade Parish Hall , an idea is being mooted that they would build a new one on the grounds of the current school, something like that; is there a chance you would be able to use the Parish Hall , the old Parish Hall ?

Chief Education Officer:

I suspect there would be all sorts of people trying to grab that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes. Would you be able to

The Minister for Education:

Just going back to what you are suggesting, I think Property Holdings would hold the right to that site and it has to be cleared because it held asbestos. I think consideration at keeping some elements of it to use for a Parish Hall would not be right, you would have to come up with a brand new building.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, fine. Thank you. Let us move on, unless anyone wants to Deputy Vallois, please.

The Deputy of St. John :

What is happening with the Children's Policy Group, which I now understand is C.A.V.A.?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What does C.A.V.A. stand for

The Minister for Education:

Yes, it was not a part of a discussion I had but it is now Children and Vulnerable Adults group, that was what it has decided to be the name of it. I can just read a little bit of what is the purpose of it, which is to uphold the vision of Children and Young People's Strategic Framework, which states: "We want all children and young people to grow up in a safe and supportive Island community in which they achieve their full potential and lead happy, healthy lives." It also goes on to uphold the aspirations of the right of the child where the best interests of the child should be the primary consideration. Then it goes on to look at support: "To deliver key outcomes with vulnerable adults in relation to health, safety, enjoyment and achievement, economic wellbeing, ability and means to make a positive contribution." There is a small statement I received from one of the officers today that says: "C.A.V.A. will achieve this by working with internal and external agencies to define strategy, shape policy, practice and legislation, influence behaviours and support interagency decision making and working." It is a ministerial group, so the Ministers from Home Affairs, Housing, Health, Social Security and ourselves, Education, are sitting on that group and that is C.A.V.A.

The Deputy of St. John :

Does the Minister not believe it would be better to have a Minister for Children?

The Minister for Education:

I think that it is a very moot point at the moment. I think the problem we have with adding in an extra Minister to the pack could be

The Deputy of St. John :

You have a vacancy now, have you not?

The Minister for Education: In terms of

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : On the ministerial side.

The Minister for Education:

I think it is about budgets at the moment, I think that is where the considerations lie. I think a Minister for Children in that sort of context is a good idea. I think I would probably represent one for the moment in terms of what we do and I think cross-departmentally we work quite closely together. Our discussions, when we have new ideas about something, are always discussed in the ministerial level.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Surely it would not need, necessarily, a budget if it was the Minister working with resources from all those departments.

The Minister for Education:

It does but then you have a problem that you have to take from those other budgets. As you are aware, our budget is pretty close to the wire in terms of where we stand at the moment.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can you give examples of the current work that C.A.V.A. are doing in order to support children?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, I think that since it was constituted I think I have only been able to attend 2 of the meetings, but the focus has been on the special case inquiries and the kind of concerns that we have. What we tend to do is Ministers all come along and discuss the areas of concerns that we have and I do not want to get into something that could, from this position, be quite detrimental in terms of press coverage. But I think it has given us the opportunity to do that kind of cross-departmental viewing to see who is doing what. For instance, the work that had been done by the M.A.S.H. (Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hubs) agencies, the fact that we have somewhere now where everybody can go that identifies vulnerable children and is picked up immediately is fantastic.

[16:00]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

When was M.A.S.H. established?

The Minister for Education: M.A.S.H. was established

Executive Officer: In 2012 I think.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What are the most recent things that have been established or set up through this group?

The Minister for Education:

Nothing has been established through this group at this moment in time. It is a fairly new group in that sort of context.

Executive Officer:

Yes, and there is a report with recommendations due to come to the next meeting.

The Deputy of St. John :

What kind of support mechanism would they provide in terms of, say, looking at any laws that sit underneath your remit? If you needed to change legislation to support the wellbeing of children, et cetera, that sit under your remit, would you take that to C.A.V.A., would you discuss that and look at how it would affect other areas?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. What I have been pleased about in joining C.A.V.A., because it is quite new to me in that sort of context, is that there is a very open discussion, we take officers along who can dig down into the detail for us. Yes; I mean the answer is yes, we would take that if necessary.

Chief Education Officer:

Just on that, I think from an officer's point of view what C.A.V.A. brings, which has not been there before, is a single place where chief officers and Ministers can talk strategically about the bigger picture. For example, where we cannot pool budgets we can at least co-ordinate our expenditure, we can make sure that policies align, so that if I, for example, in Education strengthen my tier 2 services, that is likely to take the pressure of specialist services that at the moment is over-referred to social care colleagues, and that clutters their systems and slows them down. That over-referral is my fault, not that chief officer's fault because we need to do more in terms of tier 2. The idea of C.A.V.A. is we can get our heads together, bang our heads together if we have to, and just streamline, simplify, co-ordinate, what is quite a complex issue. My hope is that as it develops as a group that will be the point where we can bring everything together. It has not been meeting very long. It has all the right people around the table, and time will tell. I think it has been meeting a matter of 6 months, and this is a longstanding, big issue. It is long overdue to have that central focal point where we can bring everything together in one place.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is consideration given as standard to any of the departments when they are bringing forward new policies or legislation changes? Do they give consideration to how it will impact on children as standard? Or, if they do not already do it, is that something this C.A.V.A. group could?

The Minister for Education:

I have not had the experience of bringing in a policy of that kind, but that is exactly what I would do. I think that is the point about it all. It replicates some of the work we are doing between myself and Home Affairs, as an example, and Health, with the Early Years' stuff. Yes, it is exactly what I would do.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So, we can expect to see that coming through from all policies, that there will be more consideration as to what the impact is for children, across the departments? That is good.

The Deputy of St. John :

You mentioned tier 2 in your department?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John : Can you just explain?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, so those are services which sit below the threshold, where the social worker would get involved and the support workers, education welfare officers, youth workers; the kind of people that work with vulnerable families, but the children are not so vulnerable that they are in danger. So, that would be tier 2 services, and the more you strengthen them, the less likely children are to get into danger, that position, and therefore you take pressure off ... apart from doing a much better job for the kids, you take pressure of an already very pressurised service.

The Minister for Education:

Going back to your question before, it is in those U.N. (United Nations) rights of the child, the voice of the child needs to be heard, so that is exactly what we are about.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, I think it is Deputy Vallois. I was going to save that one.

The Deputy of St. John :

Sorry, it would be my last one, I think.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you want to save it? Go ahead.

The Deputy of St. John :

Does the Minister intend to change the provision of 6th form education to provide a system that is in the interests of the children?

The Minister for Education:

I think we are always working in the interests of the children, to be fair.

The Deputy of St. John :

Well, provide more opportunity to the children?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, we recognise it is an issue and it is something that is on our agenda to look at. It is inefficient in the way in which we deal with our A-levels and children not doing A-levels, or they are not available, and the range of the A-levels is too narrow. It is a consideration for myself and the director, if you want to amplify that?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, we have started looking at this, so what we have is a group of head teachers and officers; a head teacher from each of the sectors, working with officers to explore the impact the current system is having both on standards and also on finances and efficiency. It has only just started meeting, so the first thing we have done is meet and to start looking at the performance data. We have explored the key stage 4 data and we are now looking at the post-16 data, the next time we meet, and then

we are going to have a look at the finances to have a look at what is efficient and what is inefficient. That will take us through to Easter. Then, in the summer, we will start to look at where we can change the system, in what ways we can change the system to benefit the kids, either through doing more to raise standards, particularly access to A-levels. A number of kids in Jersey do not sit A- levels that I think should. Not many, but some, I think, who should. And the idea is to bring back some proposals to the Minister and to my senior management team in the autumn, to have a look at it. So, one might think we are starting a revolution and a complete restructure. We are just looking at the data to see what impact the current system has on children's performance. We are looking at the finances to make sure the money is following the children in terms of need, and from that, come forward with a whole range of ideas on what we might do in the future. It is very early days; we have only met twice.

The Minister for Education:

I think it is worth mentioning that both the director and I are of a mind that we retain focus on the 4 principles that we set out, so that we are not taken off course from that. That is the important thing. I often see policies occasionally are taken in the wrong direction and then people take on too much and it debilitates what they are doing. So, we will retain the focus on autonomy, family, raising standards, and curriculum.

Executive Officer:

It is worth pointing out that the latest statistical publication, which is about A-Level results, is due out on Wednesday.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Did you mention anything about any interaction with the Jersey Premium with regards to this work that you are doing?

Chief Education Officer:

No, it will sit alongside it. So, whatever system we have in place, I think there are certain kids who will need that extra shove. My view, as you know - I have said this before - is that I think our educational standards, while beginning to move and we are delighted in many ways, I think we could improve our overall performance in terms of educational outcomes, irrespective of the structure of the 6th form provision. I think we can do better, but eventually the structure and the system has an impact on actual standards.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But will some of the data sorters that you have used for the Jersey Premium, could that help to inform you about some of the changes that might be needed?

Chief Education Officer:

Well, the data we looked at almost exclusively has been on progress, and we now have data which we have not had in the past, where we can look at children's progress. So, we can say: "These kids arrived into the system 5 years ago with these key stage 2 results and this is where they got to in 5 years. How many of those kids have made the expected progress?" So, we have looked at progress measures, irrespective of family income. It is just basically on 2 points in time, and tried to unpack what impact the system is having on whether or not those children make the progress we want them to make.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Again, looking at 6th form provision, we know at the moment, the way that it is structured, it prevents opportunities through the different campuses. For example, you might have 3 history classes where you may only need 2 and therefore not be able to provide German, or something like that. Within the old regime, it was mooted, the idea of common timetabling between all the different secondary schools. Can you tell us what progress that idea has received?

Chief Education Officer:

Quite a lot of progress. It is not uncommon, now, for students in one school to take A-levels in another, so there is quite good collaboration between the schools, which makes our 6th form much more efficient over the last couple of years than has hitherto been the case. More to the point, there is a wider selection of courses. Timetables have been aligned and allowed travelling time, so you now have students from Hautlieu, for example, taking A-levels in Victoria College and in J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls), you have kids from De La Salle taking A-levels, so it is a good mixture. Hautlieu has enough students to basically sustain a viable 6th form, but even there there is some collaboration. I think there is a long way to go, but there has been some very good progress in the last few years. When you look at why that progress has been made, to be fair to our schools, it has been made to widen choices of students rather than necessarily save money. But they have saved money at the same time because now classes are more viable. It is not just that, either. If you are going to have a proper job as a teacher, if I have 5 or 6 kids in front of me doing A-level, it is very difficult to spread the work so you have kids researching and bringing back ideas. You need 10, 12 kids in a class to really get an A-level class going; 18 is the best, depending on the subject. So, small classes, not only are they expensive, I think it costs the kids a grade or so because at A-level you need to work as a team in an A-level class, to cover the ground, particularly in areas like history and geography. Mathematics you can probably get away with. It is a big issue. So yes, there has been some progress made, but this group I mentioned earlier is talking about that and is looking at those numbers at its next meeting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : When is the next meeting?

Chief Education Officer:

We have 2 more meetings between now and Easter. I forget the dates, but we meet every 2 or 3 weeks.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If we could have an informal update?

Chief Education Officer: Sure.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, I think it is also worth mentioning the fact that Guernsey have had a look at this and they have created a federation of schools to sort of identify that, so it is quite nice that they have gone out first and we can look at how they prototype it in terms of how successful they are.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am sure they are very flattered.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So, how has the department managed to resolve one of the key issues, which is if I am paying to send my child to go to one of the fee-paying schools who then transfers to non-fee-paying schools for a class? Has that just been accepted or -- how has that issue been tackled?

Chief Education Officer:

It does not seem to be an issue. Most of the transfer is between fee-paying schools, so it has not been an issue, and I am hoping it remains that way.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, just a quick one: you have said previously, when we talked about things like this, that if you were going to design a system from scratch, it would not look like the one we have currently. Can you, briefly, if you had to design the system from scratch, what would it look like?

The Minister for Education:

I think, in terms of the discussion that we have had, you would look at something like a 6th form college, without a doubt, because it is just a forced economy for everybody concerned, and it does the very thing that we are trying to address, which is widen up the offering and use the Island to its best advantage.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What would have to change, looking at it the other way round now, to get from what we have now to a 6th form college?

The Minister for Education:

I think exactly what the director is doing, looking at the data to make sure that it is evidence-based.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You are working on it, then? Okay. Anyone else? Okay, Deputy Mézec .

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Would you consider yourself to have a shortage of secondary teaching staff and, if so, how much of a problem would you say it is?

The Minister for Education:

I think it is a big problem, and again, this is not unique to Jersey. We have been looking at it and trying to work on it for some time. The last administration, Mario Lundy, the previous director, was working on this. We have begun to locally train teachers, particularly in key subjects like maths, and I think we have done 66 since the initiation of this project.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : 66?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Teachers?

Executive Officer:

Most of them are still working in secondary schools. This is the Jersey Graduate Teacher programme.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Since when, sorry?

Executive Officer:

I think it started in 2010. I can check that for you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is good.

The Minister for Education:

It just started just before I came in as Assistant Minister.

Chief Education Officer:

All the evidence suggests they are very good teachers.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Executive Officer:

They are people who are already graduates or working and/or working in an area that is related to the subject, and they come and they do a year with training at the department, but also most of it is placed in a school and it is assessed externally, so it reaches the required standard. They have a mentor and that kind of thing, and they are people that know Jersey, they are people that have a real vocation to want to go into those subjects and teach them. It has been one of our success stories.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What is it called, sorry? Graduate...

Executive Officer:

It is the Jersey Graduate Teacher Programme.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Sorry, carry on.

The Minister for Education:

The other thing is, we are very fortunate, we have quite good retention rates, as you are probably aware, so that helps us alleviate some of the problem. We are looking at 2 other things that may be worth noting, which is improving the transition and experiences for teachers coming to the Island or viewing us as a prospect. The other thing that is worth consideration that seems to be a bit of a bugbear for teachers, which is Talentlink, and ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : The application process?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. They have never been happy with that, so that is due for a review in terms of what we are trying to do as well. I think we have something to talk about Brunel, and ...

Chief Education Officer:

Well, certainly Tressick(?) have come here from a meeting to talk about just this issue, who put their heads in the room. We have had a look at the vacancies we have, so at the moment, as we speak, as of 2.30 p.m. this afternoon, 3.00 p.m. this afternoon, we were seeking to appoint 8 specialist teachers for our secondary schools, that we are out at the moment.

[16:15]

It does not sound a very high number, but they tend to be English, maths and science, the key areas. If you take into account teachers that are currently teaching out of their subject specialism, we would raise that to 12. It is not an enormous issue, but just one gap for the kids makes a big difference and when you are trying to move forward 2 per cent or 3 per cent a year in terms of educational outcomes, putting the best possible teachers in front of the kids is one of the most important things you can do. We have met this afternoon and a couple of colleagues had gone away and had come back with a whole range of imaginative ideas, all of which we will probably look at implementing. In fat we have already started; Sue Morris from Grainville has already agreed with Newcastle University that they are going to send us their very best students and we will interview them as a group and deploy them to our schools because we need scientists and Newcastle produces some very, very good science teachers. Brunel produce some very good mathematicians. The idea is to collude, if you like, with universities. But that does not plug the gap in terms of experienced teachers. We cannot fill our schools with them, so we need to look at other ways. And, as the Minister said, recruitment is very important. We really ought to have teachers queuing up to come here. I know it is a big step because you are relocating a family or changing your life, but we have lovely kids, slightly smaller class sizes, and wonderful buildings, especially when we have rebuilt Les Quennevais, no Ofsted; we have our own internal framework, and the list goes on. Although we have some issues in Jersey, not least the funding, if you want to teach, this is the place ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Maybe the Minister could talk to the Minister for Housing about house prices.

Chief Education Officer:

Even then, it is not quite the issue. Because of the salaries, we have done a lot of work on this, and if you are a relatively inexperienced teacher coming to Jersey, when you take into account, yes, house price, but you also take into account our tax regime, you are not paying council tax and all the rest of it, you are better off financially here, even when you take into account the cost of living in Jersey. If you are a teacher, you will have more disposable income here than you do in England, significantly more. As you work your way through and become head teachers, for example, you are still slightly better off here; only slightly. The money should not be an issue for us. If you are a teacher 3 or 4 years in, you are better off here, financially. We need to find a way of proactively selling Jersey and its children and its schools, and we need to find a way of stepping around Talentlink, because what you are faced with, with Talentlink, is an email exchange which is not welcoming. It does not describe the beaches and the children and the pleasant communities that you are coming to. We need to find a way; that is a blockage to recruiting. We have feedback from teachers that we were desperate to recruit who gave up trying to get through the system, literally gave up and went and taught somewhere else. One of them went to Guernsey, which was really annoying, because the system is so frustrating, and we cannot have that. We cannot have that.

The Deputy of St. John :

How long has that system been in place?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Quite a few years. It is the States central system. If you apply for a job on the Island ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It changed about 3 years ago, I think, did it not?

The Minister for Education:

But all of this, from a new recruit, effectively. What is the practice ...

Chief Education Officer: I almost gave up myself.

The Minister for Education:

Yes. The director did not go through Talentlink, I do not think, is what you are saying, but even ...

Chief Education Officer:

No, I had the deluxe version, apparently, but I still struggled.

The Minister for Education:

What the director is saying about the lifestyle factor, talking to a new teacher just the other day, and it was that sort of reprise of: "I have come to find a better way of life or make one," they actually do see the lifestyle and they do see the Island for all the benefits that it offers, so I think he is absolutely right.

Chief Education Officer:

We just need to make people aware of it. Perhaps the next time we meet, we will share with you the strategy, when we have written it. People have come forward this afternoon with a document that was pretty well there.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

You briefly alluded to retention rates for teachers in Jersey. How do they compare with other places you might think Jersey could be comparable to? Maybe Guernsey or certain parts of the U.K.? And what would your explanation be for why the retention rates are what they are?

The Minister for Education:

I was going to say, the retention rate, to amplify what the director was saying, once you get into these schools you recognise the quality of what you have in terms of the children, the quality of access to really good materials within the equipment that is provided. The schools are fairly modern. Having looked at some of the other jurisdictions, to use your phrase, we are not subject to very old schools with very difficult teaching conditions, so I think that is part of it. Like I say, the situation is, even though we have a difficulty with the 5-year strategy, people do like the lifestyle here. Once they get here they find it very difficult to leave.

Chief Education Officer:

The issue we do have is, going back to your earlier point about 6th form, we do have children here that miss teaching A-level. Most teachers in secondary schools like teaching kids who are challenging, because you feel like you are changing lives when you are working with some of the kids who are struggling, but you also like to teach A-level students; you like the full range. In 4 of our schools, of course, that is an opportunity unavailable, so around 16 schools sometimes lose their teachers to the other schools on the Island just for an opportunity to simply teach A-levels. That is another reason we need to look at that. But the retention rates here are very, very good. In fact, in primary schools it is a bit of a problem; we have hardly any turnaround in our primary schools, and it is quite fixed. It is healthy to have a little bit of churn in the system, and I am tempted to try to create artificial churn so we get different ideas moving around the Island. In secondary schools, once we have recruited teachers, they do stay, on the whole. They love it here. And why not? It is a fantastic place.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Yet we still have shortages, as you were saying. What do you attribute that to and what has been done, specifically targeting that as a problem, to overcome it?

Chief Education Officer:

Simply supply. There are not enough teachers being trained in England to fill the gap in England, so there is an enormous shortage in England. Large numbers of teachers moving out of ... we should benefit from that, because one of the reasons that England is struggling in terms of numbers is they do not retain teachers, so teachers who train in England, after a few years fly the coop and are off to Australia, New Zealand, because the English qualification is highly regarded across the world.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

50 per cent leave within the first 5 years.

Chief Education Officer:

Something like 50 per cent, yes, and that has grown in the last 5, 10 years. It used to be about 20 per cent. A lot of that has been put down to Ofsted, interestingly, and yet Ofsted have just written a paper saying it is terrible that we are losing all these teachers. It is quite interesting. The nerve of them. Anyway. We ought to be able to capture them as they fly the coop. Almost the single reason is lack of supply; there are not enough teachers being produced. It has been a problem for about a decade, but it is getting worse, of course, because while the teaching numbers have fallen, the number of kids in England has risen dramatically.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Bearing in mind the shortage, have you been able to assess the impact that it has on the workload of the remaining staff and if so, have you been able to do anything to try and counter that by doing other things within schools?

Chief Education Officer:

It does not have an impact on the workload because teachers have their timetables and that is it. It has an impact on the kids because of supply teachers. There are some examples where classes may be slightly bigger, but our class sizes overall are in line or smaller than in England. It does not have an impact on workload particularly, but it does have an impact on the kids. Of course, there will always be a turnover in staff; that is always going to happen. But no, there should not be an impact on workload. We have just been analysing our survey. We surveyed all our teachers, and they had a lot to say on workload.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : I bet they do.

Chief Education Officer:

But they do not put it down to staff shortages. They put it down to people like me, asking them to do a number of things.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : It is all your fault.

Chief Education Officer: Yes. [Laughter]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I jump in? I wanted to just reflect back on some data that I asked you for a few months ago in the States, and I think you had 2 and a half years' worth of data and it was on how many newly qualified teachers are still employed by the States of Jersey, and I think the data that you gave me was after 2 and a half years that there was around 70 per cent, around three quarters were still employed. Are you still collecting that data to monitor the retention of teachers?

Chief Education Officer:

We do keep that data. The turnover, three quarters, is pretty high. If you take N.Q.T.s (Newly Qualified Teachers) across England, it is lower than that. It is a relatively low number, statistically. We do keep that data and it looks fairly static, the last time we looked. Probably the last time we looked was when we reported back to you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could we possibly have the updated data?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

That was for the States question. It was, was it not? Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, it was about a year ago, I think, so I am hoping that there will be something else.

Chief Education Officer:

It was not difficult to get that. The central H.R. (Human Resources) team provided me with very, very detailed H.R. data on retention rates and sick rates and all this. It is very helpful. It is better data than I have never had before.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Obviously, this is making an assumption because there is only 2 and a half years' worth of data, but if a quarter of teachers had left the profession in those 2 and a half years, if you add another 2 and a half years, you might see that the same rate are leaving and that might leave you with the same rates as the U.K. Whereas 50 per cent of them might have left in 5 years, if that trend continues, which actually ...

Executive Officer:

No, that was the per cent per year that ...

Chief Education Officer: Yes, that is per year.

The Minister for Education: I think the ...

Executive Officer:

It was the per cent of that new cohort. Each year there are newly qualified teachers, and it was 75 per cent of that cohort that stayed within 5 years.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think it was after 2 and a half ... I would have to look back at the question.

Executive Officer:

Yes, I think you need to just clarify that, but it was not cumulative; it was not 25 per cent up to 50 per cent, up to 75 per cent. It was 25 per cent of that year, and then the next intake, 25 per cent. So, it was per year.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But surely that would be cumulative, because it is people, is it not, so, if you are looking at it from the other side of how ...

Executive Officer:

Because there are more coming in; there are more coming in every year.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But if you are looking at it from the angle of an individual teacher and how long they will stay in teaching and will they leave before the end of the 5 years, it looked to me like we were heading towards that same problem as the U.K.

The Minister for Education:

No, it is not a case of diminishing returns. I think it has already been amplified, the notion of retention and what we have in our schools. The other thing that was beginning to happen, there was discussion again that I had with a couple of teachers is, they see what is happening in the UK; that is another reason for our retention being so good, and they do not fancy going back, is the truth of it. For those who do move on, it is a completely different profession, generally. They have come to the Island and have seen something different that they want to do, as I did myself several years ago.

Executive Officer:

If you want some more explanation and detail about those figures we gave you, we are happy to do that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I would assume that, rather than having people come in to the Island, you would rather retain the teachers that are already in the system, that are in Jersey. So, what are you doing to actively retain those teachers, and do you have issues with workload and any other problems? What do you do to address those and actively support them?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, that is not the problem, because when you talk to teachers, especially if they have experience of the UK, the response we get is, the workload here is much more reasonable, the whole way of life here, as a teacher here, although it is a difficult job, compared to the U.K. when they compare notes with each other. So, retention is not the problem; it is the initial recruitment. Out of our recruitment, we find it easier to recruit N.Q.T.s than we do slightly more experienced ... and I suspect because on the whole they tend to not yet have a family and fixtures and fittings and places to sell. It is a less brave step to come here as an N.Q.T. than it is once you have a young family.

Executive Officer:

The pay is higher for an N.Q.T. in Jersey.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, and, as I say, the salaries look good. It is a good deal to come here. Retention is not an issue; it is the initial recruitment and my own view is, we should be able to do a lot better. Simply, frankly, it is the same people who have to work on this that are working on everything else. It is a very small team. But based on the conversation we had this afternoon, I think probably we will have to prioritise it over and above other things.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I am hearing that, from your point of view, retention is not an issue and recruitment is. But just focusing on retention at the moment, what do you do to retain teachers?

The Minister for Education:

There is another aspect that we have not mentioned, which you probably appreciate, which is that we work very closely with the union, so the working relationship is great in terms of they tell us where they think they are and we respond and react effectively, depending upon what they are being asked to do. We have always had a view with regard to workload in particular, and I think you already got in terms of what I said about the teaching training process, that is part and parcel of what we set out some time ago.

Chief Education Officer:

The bottom line is, we have lots of strategies and plans to do lots of things, but we do not have a formal strategy around retention of teachers. What we do need and will have is a formal strategy around recruitment and obviously by doing that we want to hang on to them as long as we can.

[16:30]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That will be ...

Chief Education Officer:

Our retention rates here are much, much better than elsewhere.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It will be interesting to look at that data, anyway, and have a proper conversation about it.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

That was it for now. Is it worth going on to this now, do you think? We are halfway through.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, if you would like to. If you are sure. Yes, OK.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

We are halfway through, so we would like to skip, if we can, to the question on higher education funding. It is obviously one that is of interest to lots of people.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : It is number 12, I think.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Number 12, yes. The only question is, basically, what is the position in relation to higher education funding at the moment? Can you update us on what progress, if any, has been made?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We have done an hour, so maybe we should try and keep things a bit more succinct, myself included.

The Minister for Education:

OK, I will try and keep it as succinct as I can. I think this is a similar question as I was asked in the Assembly by Deputy Maçon. I expected it to come back up again. The reply is not similar in that we have a report that is being compiled as we speak that the Chief Minister will give to the Assembly by the end of the first quarter and, again, it is looking at those 5 areas that we have already delineated, looking at the current system, how we can change that, looking at a student loan, looking at a saving scheme, looking at Campus Jersey - it has now been named - and stronger links with foreign universities. It is probably worth saying from my position as a Minister that if there was an opportunity, any opportunity, for me to come up with a solution that would project and allow a greater number of students to go in a more cost-efficient way, then we would be embarking on that route. The difficulties we have are, as everybody is aware, is that the budget constraints have made it extremely difficult for us to consider student loans in particular, but that said, we will not, even if the report comes out and delineates what we have done, it would be consistent with us that we will keep looking at this. This is something that is a high priority for us because we want to resolve the issue as quickly as we possibly can because there are people who are very concerned about it.

Chief Education Officer:

The report is almost finished.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, I was just interested to know with one of the options, which is looking at universities in other countries outside of the U.K., I remember attending one of the workshops. That was done at Hautlieu and one of the questions which I would want to know is with your work, with the department's work through the Skills Executive, what conversations have we had with the business community about how well qualifications from universities outside of the U.K. would be received, understood, what their value would be back in the Island?

The Minister for Education:

That is a good question. I have already asked that question of several financial institutions. It depends on the course, obviously, at the end of the day. There are 2 parts really. One is that we recently had a visit from the Education Minister from Normandy, so they are a united Normandy now. They are a slightly different precinct to where they have been before. They were advocating a lot of encouragement to us to send students over. What we are talking about there is actually bringing teachers from Normandy into the higher education into Highlands to meet with the teachers there to see if they can marry up the skillset and vice versa; to go over and begin to investigate what they can do there. The appetite for it is quite strong, which I was quite surprised about. I thought we would have to slowly grow this, but it seems to be stronger than we first expected. The private sector that I have spoken to, and it is financial institutions that I have only spoken to, first of all said, yes, they would recognise anything that we found, dependent upon the courses obviously.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay. Thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

To tie this in with something that has popped up at the moment and I think this is a silly question. In terms of encouraging students to go, or at least giving them the information about what options there are in terms of going to universities in other parts of Europe, how does Brexit fit into any of that in terms of the rights of Jersey students as sort of European Union citizens potentially going to these things? Has that put a question mark above any of this?

The Minister for Education:

I do not think so. I mean I think we would have to see what happens when the smoke clears with Brexit really, to be honest to answer your question. For us, we are still carrying on with the research that we are doing with these. We are still having the conversations. In fact, there has been no difference in the conversation I have had prior to this, so I would imagine it would continue post that situation. They are keen to get students over there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Either way, you think?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That the situation would make it.

Chief Education Officer:

We would have a look at it. I think the video talks about it. Give an example of Erasmus, for example, which is a very popular, very successful European scheme in terms of exchange of students across Europe. I was horrified when I arrived in Jersey to discover Jersey does not benefit from that programme because we are not part of the European Union. I suppose it is fair enough. We do not pay in and therefore we should not get this out. I do not think it will make a big difference, but we will have to look at that very, very carefully.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Unless someone has got anything on that subject. In the last hearing, which I was not here for, but the transcript shows that you have mentioned that at that point you had not had a proper meeting with J.I.C.A.S. (Jersey International Centre of Advanced Studies) but you were going to have one at some point.

The Minister for Education: Yes, we have met with J.I.C.A.S.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : How did that go?

The Minister for Education:

It went very well. We totally support what they are doing because they have now moved their position from where they were before previously to a post-grad situation. I still think they are trying to sort out their own perspective on all of this, but because it does not interfere with the notion of Campus Jersey so it is not in conflict with anybody else we supported.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you supporting them just in this with goodwill, or are you supporting them with any practicality?

The Minister for Education

Just with goodwill at this moment in time. They have asked for nothing other than that. We did say to them there was no funding attached to what we were doing at all.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet  Have they asked for funding?

The Minister for Education: No.

Chief Education Officer:

The line was: "We would love to have it but we are not going to ask you because we know you are not going to give it to us."

The Minister for Education:

Yes, we did. We made it explicit the very first question that was asked that there would not be any consideration for that because they see it themselves as a private sector organisation.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. Any practical help in terms of access to facilities or, I do not know?

The Minister for Education:

I think they already do that. They operate out of ... I think, one of the founder members of the group is a college lecturer at Highlands, so I think they operate through Highlands. Equally they do I think some of you have been to some of the talks given through J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls).

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We usually go on Tuesday, so I have not made it yet.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I went to a few, they were good.

The Minister for Education:

Okay. All right. But apart from that, no, there is no other consideration.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just ask? You have said that the report that has been compiled will be delivered by the end of the first quarter. Just given the amount of interest that parents and students have shown in this subject, will the Assembly be presenting some sort of workshop or something again so that members of the public can ?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. We embarked on that procedure in the first place, which was quite illuminating for us, and I am sure the public to some extent. I have no problem with that at all. I think that is a really good idea.

Chief Education Officer:

It is worth bearing in mind I think, I am probably unpopular if I say this, but I think it needs to be said, is that everybody, including everyone this side of the table, would love to just introduce the student loan scheme which was affordable, but nobody yet has come forward with a set of calculations where the figures add up other than exposing the Government to literally hundreds of millions of pounds worth of debt over a period of time. There are not any easy solutions here and I think people are getting frustrated because they think we are going to come up with some easy solutions. They are just not there. We have to come forward with the best proposals we can manage but without exposing ourselves to enormous debt. It is not a problem that is easy to resolve.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

This end of March deadline, are you coming forward with just a set of ideas, or have you got a proposition that you can bring to the table?

The Minister for Education:

It is a report. It is not a proposition. It is a report.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

A report. Okay. Can you tell us more about what the format of the report is? Is it ideas? Is it a concrete thing?

The Minister for Education:

It is literally being compiled as we say, so I do not know what the format is.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

The Minister for Education:

But as soon as we have it, we will ... the other thing we did say was we would take it to the unions and show everybody, show those before we go any further. I think it is also worth noting, just following up from what the Director is saying, I do not know if anybody was watching or listening to the news over the weekend, but big consideration is being given to student agencies now chasing loan evaders in the U.K. Strangely enough, I had not seen the figures before, but there is an F.T. (Financial Times) article here which you can have, Government has identified 123,000 borrowers who have gone to live overseas and, in particular, it seems that they are all heading to Australia to avoid paying their loans. I have no idea what the attraction is from Australia.

Chief Education Officer:

They are teachers. They can come here.

The Minister for Education:

Again, they are reiterating the figures. A concern has been growing about soaring cost of the loans. It said in 2014, would leave graduates making repayments well into their 50s and the loan's book will grow to £330 billion by 2044. The only thing that gives us some good news, as it were, is that the long-term cost of the loan write-off is reduced. So, originally, it used to be about £45 for every pound. It has reduced now so they say to about £25 for every pound, so it lightens it to some extent.

Chief Education Officer:

Sorry, if the peak opposition has come down to 25 per cent, I did not know that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are we all finished on that one? Sure. Okay. Can I just ask something quickly?

The Minister for Education: Yes, sure.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you considering any further tax breaks in terms of parents of children at university?

The Minister for Education:

Strangely enough, I have got a meeting at ... when I said the report is coming out, and I think I started off by saying: ""Nothing stops us considering looking at this all the time."" I have got a meeting with the Minister for Treasury and Resources this week to discuss some of these areas. I am not sure that tax breaks will be in the offing, but it is always open for discussion.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The child tax allowance ... what I am trying is that "amount given across the board universally", will you be raising how that could possibly be readjusted in this meeting with the Minister for Treasury and Resources?

The Minister for Education:

That is not the focus of this meeting.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, lovely. Where are we then? That was question 12. Seven is Deputy Maçon.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Okay. Yes, in our previous hearing we talked about non-teaching duties. Can I ask whether the department's position is that all primary head teachers' duties should be non-teaching and what impact will this have on children, schools, and budgets?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you mean deputy head teachers?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, it sounds like an unguarded comment from me at the last. Quite out of character for me.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We might have been taken aback.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes. Well, I would love every primary school to have a non-teaching deputy because I think it has a significant impact. If you have got a non-teaching deputy it means that deputy is free to work across classrooms, to model best practice, support teachers who need the support, to work with groups of children, spend time with parents, to develop the curriculum has an enormous impact having a non-teaching deputy. When I say non-teaching that does not mean they will never do any teaching. It means that they do not have class responsibility. They do have some non-teaching deputies, very few, and they have an enormous impact. The problem is strictly funding and, as I have said before, the funding here is problematic. If you take our overall expenditure per head in education, it is broadly the same as England. Slightly less, but it is difficult to compare, but broadly average and that gives us a budget of about £100 million. Unlike England, £18 million of that is taken off for higher education and further education. If this was an English local authority, the whole of that £100 million will be spent on schools and education because all the F.E. (Further Education) funding and all the H.E. (Higher Education) funding is taken from different budgets. Here in Jersey they are not. That is 18 per cent straight out away from schools. That has consequences and one of them is that head teachers' budgets are much, much tighter after their fixed costs than in the U.K. I think I said before, they spend here just over 90 per cent of their budget on fixed costs, mainly staffing, but also heating and the rest, leaving them 10 per cent. In the U.K. they spend just under 80 per cent and it is that gap in funding which stops us doing that kind of thing. I would love every primary school to have a non-teaching deputy, but we simply cannot afford it within the existing budget.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask? You said you feel that having non-teaching deputies will have a positive impact on the pupils. What evidence do you have that rather than getting, say, additional teaching staff or teaching assistants but having more management, what evidence do you have that that is going to have a positive impact on children?

Chief Education Officer:

There is lots and lots of research over the last 20-odd years. Much of it is English research rather than American, which is, as you know, unusual, to demonstrate that if you have got a very effective, very experienced teacher who is free to have an impact across a school, it has a big impact on standards. In some schools across the U.K. what tends to happen is the deputy is also the S.E.N.C.O. (Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator), or takes on other roles, the L.A.D.O. (Local Authority Designated Officer) or whatever.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : The, what, sorry?

Chief Education Officer:

We do not have them here now.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

An acronym I have not come across before;

[16:45]

Chief Education Officer:

Or works with the L.A.D.O., that is local authority designated officer. Safeguarding.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Chief Education Officer:

The nominated safeguarding person. They are not just drifting around and there is a lot of research that shows it has a big impact. In fact, where I have worked in the past with schools that are struggling in terms of standards, by putting in a non-teaching deputy it is moving forward very, very quickly.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. It is like having extra teaching staff rather than saying it was extra management.

Chief Education Officer:

It is nothing to do with management. This is purely to have somebody, a very experienced practitioner available to work across the school.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are your ideas in theory? How do you ensure that is happening in practice in the schools?

Chief Education Officer: We cannot.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Are they your vision?

Chief Education Officer:

It does not in Jersey and it will not because we cannot afford it because it would mean an additional member of staff which we cannot afford here. Our budget is more constrained. Do not get me wrong, the money we spend on higher education and further education is money well spent, but it is coming out of a budget which elsewhere it would not come out of.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Where would you take it out of?

Chief Education Officer:

Well, in the U.K. it comes out of a completely different department.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Which department in the U.K.?

Chief Education Officer:

There is a department for we do not have a somewhere department. Department of Business and

The Deputy of St. John : Economic Department.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, Economic Development should be paying that £18 million. [Laughter] It is just the way it is. We have evolved. The U.K. have a dedicated school grant which is allocated directly to schools and cannot be touched. There is a separate budget for higher education and another budget again for further education. We have other specs, but that is a big hole in our budget.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, you will be talking to the Minister for Economic Development?

The Minister for Education:

I do not think so, not right away. I have got far too much to do.

The Deputy of St. John :

I think you might want to make that an agenda item eventually.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Shall we move on to number 8?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Have you finished?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: I think so.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, let us move on to number 8. What are you doing to address behaviour issues in schools, particularly levels of violent behaviour against other pupils and against teachers?

The Minister for Education:

Well, I guess I would probably have to say right at the beginning, I believe that the behaviour in schools generally over here is very good. We have low numbers in terms of bad behaviour. We, as most of you will know, have a very inclusive school policy. We just recently reorganised our behaviour risk support. We run an alternative curriculum at d'Hautree House. We have behaviour support teams. We have an outreach programme. We have got a new head of that to do it. It is a very sort of singular approach. We have sort of reduced the numbers that have gone through this process some time. I think we have addressed it quite well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is it monitored in any way? Do schools record these kind of incidents?

Chief Education Officer: Yes, they do.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Chief Education Officer:

We have a register. It is interesting in Jersey, because so many of the children here are so well- behaved the children who are not well-behaved stick out like a sore thumb. It is very obvious because they buck the trend, as it were, which makes their behaviour look more extreme than in other settings. As the Minister says, what we have tried to do over the last year is rationalise the current support we put in place because it was a bit confusing for schools to have 3 separate teams operating advice. What we have done is bring them all together into a single resource. We are not cutting it at all. We have kept it the same and we have increased the resource because we have taken Tom Turner, who was the Deputy Head from Le Rocquier is now the head of the entire service, so we have a single approach.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Sorry, he is the head of which service?

Chief Education Officer:

Our behaviour support service.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Where is that?

Chief Education Officer:

That includes all of d'Hautree House, it includes all of the alternative curriculum and it includes our outreach team. So now instead of having 3 people doing some very good work they have come together into a single team as of September just gone.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

There is 3 of them in this team?

Chief Education Officer:

They have teams below them, so it is quite a big resource. But it now means they are working together in one single approach.

Executive Officer:

So 3 sections are combined, not 3 people. Everything that they do is now overseen by Tom.

Chief Education Officer:

It means we can move resource. If we have a really good teacher in d'Hautree House, we can use that teacher, timetable that teacher to also work in the alternative curriculum centre if we think that person can meet the needs of that particular child. The 3 teams have come together really well and are doing some great work.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Have there been an increases or decreases of staffing?

Chief Education Officer:

Exactly the same staffing, yes. We have not made any cuts in that.

The Minister for Education:

To prove the efficiency, I was at a school last week and there was a child that had some bad behaviour that had been highlighted to me, came back to the department only to find a review was going in this week that I would not have known about obviously because the process carries on all the time, and so they are on top of the game really in terms of that.

Chief Education Officer:

Where we need to up our game a bit is working with families. I was in Le Rocquier talking to a lad before Christmas, a member of staff there. This lad was telling me all the support that had been put in place so he can manage his own behaviour. He was quite an intelligent lad and he knew that he was causing chaos.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Secondary school?

Chief Education Officer:

Secondary school, year 7. When I got back and talking to the senior management team, he is one of 5, and he is the eldest, and when you look at his behaviour, it is learned behaviour. By working with the family I think we could do things because otherwise Le Rocquier is now going to work for a decade of that same behaviour coming through its ranks. We are in a better place than we were. We are now better organised, more coherent, and therefore we can be more inclusive because these kids can be in mainstream. We have taken some very significant steps, but we have got a way to go before we are working with the family to try and manage behaviour.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we are hearing that message loud and clear. That is very consistent.

Chief Education Officer:

Our new family forum, parent's forum, will start - I think we might have our independent chair -where we are going to bring parents in as a forum to talk to us about how best we can work with families. That is up and running.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just take you back to you said that incidents in schools of violent behaviour were recorded. Is this in a standardised way across each school, or does each school do it internally?

Chief Education Officer:

No. We have a standard recording system. We have just changed I should not have raised this because I cannot remember the name. We have just changed our training programme.

Executive Officer: To M.A.B.E.L.(?)

Chief Education Officer: Sorry? M.A.B.E.L., that is right.

Executive Officer:

I am not sure what that stands for.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that another acronym?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes it is. Where in extreme cases where children have to be restrained for their own safety, if they are going to run into the road or things like that, we have to do that and we put training in place for that and we have switched to M.A.B.E.L., which are managing something behaviour something.

Executive Officer:

Yes. I will find out for you and let you know.

Chief Education Officer:

What that brings is a recording system which is central coherent and immediate so they can track behaviour. We are protecting staff as well to make sure that everything was done was done properly and we record that, and that all goes to Tom Turner.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

When did that start being collected?

Chief Education Officer: September. It is quite new.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is quite new then.

Chief Education Officer: Very new.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Will you be collecting all of that and monitoring it to see how many incidents there are, whether any of the schools are having higher levels that we have been going on about?

Chief Education Officer:

That is exactly the idea of it, so we can track the kind of incidents or age ranges, is it boys versus girls. We will have a simple system. We have started importing some of the old data, but there were so many different systems that really we need a benchmark.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If there is a perception that these incidents are going up, you will have some data to have a look?

Chief Education Officer: We will.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, we will follow up on that maybe in a year if we are all still here. This is related and it is not at the same time, as it is possibly alternative behaviours and you have been talking about alternative curriculum. Children who have mental health issues, perhaps social anxiety, you said that there was a scheme being set up to educate them", children that could not access the mainstream schools for issues of mental health. Is there an update on how that is going? Is that in place yet? This was a question I asked you in October.

Executive Officer:

This was for the E.B.N.A.S. (Emotional and Behavioural Non-attendance at Schools).

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, the children educated other than at school. Actually, Jersey is well ahead of the U.K. on this in that in the U.K. if you decide to educate your child out of the system there is very little control from local authorities. Quite worrying; they are just out of the system. Here in Jersey there are some very sensible arrangements in place so that work can be monitored.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think this is a separate issue.

Chief Education Officer:

Is it? Okay. Well, it is just that we know exactly who the children are. The parents of those children who are educating them at home work very closely with the department through Cliff Chipperfield and Julian. But you are not talking about those kids?

Executive Officer:

There are 2 things. There is the home educating people, which is that, and there is the E.B.N.A.S., which stands, I have remembered, is for emotional and behavioural non-attendance, which is the group that you are talking about.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Would that cover a child who, say had social anxiety disorder and could not be in a room with a large group of people?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

The Minister for Education:

Is this a question relating to your wellbeing question?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No. It is about alternative education. If you have a child with social anxiety disorder or something similar to that who cannot go into a big school because of their anxiety issues or other mental health issues, how is that child educated?

Chief Education Officer:

Well, the first thing is C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services). We have some children exactly as you say; single figures. Very small figures. The first thing is their mental health issues are led and supported through the C.A.M.H.S. team. What we would tend to do is the very worst case scenario we have private tutors, but what we try and do is bring the children in bit by bit. We get them in for part of the day and then when they are ready, a bit longer, and so we work with them slowly and surely to do that. We start from private tutors at home. The problem is you need to get them to school quite quickly because the longer they are out of school the more difficult it is for them to come back in. Sometimes going to a brand new school is helpful as well, so they have a fresh start. So designed around the individual child and that takes place as well as the special educational needs team.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What if a child is diagnosed with a disorder which means that they have to live with that and they might never be able to go into a school? Are there alternative arrangements for children like that?

Chief Education Officer:

Like I say, we can provide ... we do provide one-to-one tuition.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

What is the prevalence of that on the Island?

Chief Education Officer:

Tiny. I think we have like 3 or 4.

The Minister for Education:

I followed one child all the way through because it was an appeal child, all the way through to secondary school and bit by bit, because of that situation that you have described, he got to the point where he just could not attend school at all. We are now back at a process of bringing him back into the fold, but very, very slowly. It is quite effective.

Chief Education Officer: Very small numbers.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Even if it was only one child you would want to provide it to them.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Move on, Chairman.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Let us move on, Deputy Maçon.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Is it number 9?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, we are going to skip number 9. We might come back to it.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

A slightly related matter then. What is done to measure the wellbeing of children in schools?

The Minister for Education:

Well, you are probably aware that - I think you would certainly be aware - that we have wellbeing teams now headed up in this particular case by a woman called Tina Hesse. If you go into most schools, particular the primary schools now, you will see wellbeing rooms, opportunities for those pupils who have problems to take themselves out of the classroom and find themselves in a stress- free environment. We have pupil surveys, we have school councils,, and we have the teachers themselves which operate as a good litmus test for that kind of thing.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Is there anything from what has been reported back, fed back to the system, which has caused concern or whether it has highlighted more work the department needs to do?

The Minister for Education:

No. I think we have just become more efficient in identifying concerns regarding the children, but I do not think it has increased in numbers in due regard.

Chief Education Officer:

What has changed is the messages the kids are giving us. Social media is the number one concern, and making sure they are safe using social media I think is a growing issue for us. On the whole, the feedback we get is pretty positive.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Any of this wellbeing information that you get, is any of it collected in a standardised way in the same way that you do your academic data? Is it collated and compared in a similar way to the academic data?

Chief Education Officer:

Not as rigorously. We do collect the data, but it is not collected in the same rigour and then analysed in the same way. The new system that we are looking to bring into the Island from this September has a lot just on wellbeing. It compares attendance figures with peaks and trends.

[17:00]

It is a quite clever system, but we will not have that in place until September. We do collect the data and we do look at it, but I would not say as systematic as we do for performance metrics.

The Minister for Education:

Tina is highly regarded. I have discovered her approaching a school and asking them to put one of these things in; it has been a real success all the way round.

Executive Officer:

There is a lot broader wellbeing type focus stuff in the P.S.H.E. (Personal, Social, Health Education) curriculum. A lot of awareness of it. You went to the Prison Me No Way, did you not?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

Executive Officer:

Those kind of things are really important in a pre-emptive sense as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Will you be working towards making the wellbeing side of the data, making that match the academic side in terms of if it is of equal importance?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, we will but, as I say, we are quite a way away from that yet, to be frank.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It will be interesting. Can you show us how levels have increased in competence and emotional intelligence and all those types of things?

Chief Education Officer:

Well, we will have that data. It is almost all based on perception of the children themselves. But perceptions are just as powerful as facts and figures.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Sure. You commented that these have been touched on in the P.S.H.E. curriculum. Could you just expand on that for us, please?

Executive Officer: Well the P.S.H.E ...

The Minister for Education:

You feel underused at this point, do you?

Executive Officer:

Well, the P.S.H.E. curriculum covers the things that are outside what you would call normal academic subject and it aims to develop your skills as a citizen in society and give you the information you need to be equipped to make really good decisions, life decisions. That covers lifestyle things like diet and healthy living, it covers politics and citizenship in Jersey, it covers drugs education, alcohol education, relationships education; all those broad things that are essential alongside your academic learning. They are the kind of things, and it is compulsory in Jersey as part of our curriculum all the way through from key stage 1 to key stage 4.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

For all schools?

Executive Officer:

Yes. It is not in the U.K. although most schools do it, so it is a strength. But it is an area where we have to fit a lot in for schools.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So for the private schools as well it is compulsory?

Executive Officer:

Yes, the private schools have to follow the Jersey curriculum; all schools in Jersey do.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, and does that include sex and relationships education within the P.S.H.E.?

Executive Officer: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It does? That is interesting. Did you say you were reviewing your P.S.H.E.?

Deputy J.M. Maçon: They have reviewed.

The Minister for Education:

We reviewed it, it was part of the curriculum.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, I do not know if we have seen that.

The Minister for Education: The new curriculum?

Executive Officer:

I thought we sent it to you.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think it has been sent.

Chief Education Officer: We can send it again.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Well, we will check and see.

Executive Officer:

I can always send it to you again, it is Jersey specific, it includes Jersey politics and Jersey ...

The Minister for Education:

The sort of thing you were asking for.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. I knew you had said you were reviewing it but I do not remember seeing it but we will check and see if we have had it.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can you just confirm: is there a dedicated teacher in every school teaching the P.S.H.E. curriculum, or how is that done within the school system now?

Executive Officer:

There is a working group, each school has a lead that leads P.S.H.E. but it is generally delivered by a whole wide range of teachers.

Chief Education Officer:

We leave it to the school to decide exactly how they will deliver it because some schools have specialists and that is basically what they teach. Others take the view that: "We would like to spread the skills completely to support form teachers" and then the professional partners monitor the quality of the work.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

That was going to be my final question on this matter is: how do you measure how successful the P.S.H.E. curriculum is when it is not examined?

Chief Education Officer:

The kids produce written work so the professional partners look at that work, in the same way they look at the rest of the work. Interestingly, if it is taught really well ... teaching P.S.H.E. varies a lot, it is one of the problems with teaching P.S.H.E., probably less so here because we are smaller community so we can get our arms around it. Some of the best written work is often ... because some of the subjects are quite provocative and kids get quite worked up in the debates and so some of the written work that comes out of P.S.H.E. can be really quite powerful. In fact in some cases you will see the kids submitting it as part of their G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) coursework in other objects. Good luck to them if they get away with it. So it is very important but we do have to protect it a bit because lots and lots of people would like us to put all sorts into P.S.H.E. on a regular basis, particularly from voluntary sector groups, all for good reason. So we have had requests to put knife crime into there, breast cancer, we have even had one guy who wanted to make chess compulsory as part of the P.S.H.E.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Chess?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes. So we are constantly having to say: "If we are not careful we are just going to have a rag bag of issues" so we try and bring some coherence to P.S.H.E. It is about developing yourselves, protecting yourselves, taking an interest in the world around you, without too many very specific issues.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Presumably when you are improving your measurements of wellbeing that will involve your P.S.H.E. curriculum, it might improve.

Chief Education Officer:

The most important way of measuring health and wellness is to talk to the students and get feedback directly from them. They are a perceptive bunch, kids, and they give really honest feedback.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Okay, thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

All right, it is me again. Are you going to be outsourcing any areas from your department as a result of the cuts in the M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan)?

The Minister for Education:

Currently we are looking at that situation. Obviously we are no different from any other department having to make cuts, but we have not identified a specific outsourcing stream at all.

The Deputy of St. John :

Will we be looking forward to an Education Limited like Andium Homes?

The Minister for Education: Sorry, say that again?

The Deputy of St. John :

Will we be looking forward to an Education Limited like Andium Homes?

The Minister for Education:

No, I do not think that is a consideration.

Chief Education Officer: Do not be too rash, Minister.

The Minister for Education:

No, it is not my agenda right at this moment in time.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

But you can see it being on your agenda?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think that is that one done.

Chief Education Officer:

We are mainly statutory services so there is not a lot of opportunities for us to outsource what we do. If we do it will be on the fringes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

You will not be looking for private companies to sponsor teachers then?

Chief Education Officer: No.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, we have just a couple more that are extra ones, does anyone just want to quickly look at that list just before you go. We did not think we would get through these as quickly. I wanted to ask you, and you have mentioned it, your survey that you did for the teaching staff, how far along are you in terms of analysing your results?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, it is very close. We have a briefing with the unions I think on Thursday and Friday.

Executive Officer:

Yes, one on Thursday and one on Friday.

The Minister for Education:

When we went out to the teachers, we have had 450, I think it is, voluntary returns, which is pretty high.

Executive Officer:

Which is really good for a self-selecting voluntary service; our statisticians are very pleased with it. We sent out 1,000.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, and it can easily be broken down as well. Our Stats Unit now has a fantastic hold on all this sort of information so I look forward to it myself.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So the Stats Unit are analysing that for you?

Executive Officer: No, our ...

The Minister for Education: Our Stats Unit.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Within your department?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, so it will be broken down in primary, secondary or fee-paying and non-fee paying and that sort of thing.

The Deputy of St. John :

Could we get some detail on that maybe once you have finished?

The Minister for Education:

Once we get it to the unions, yes, absolutely.

Chief Education Officer:

We did talk about us meeting a bit more regularly.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We did, yes, and we have some dates, it was supposed to be this afternoon, was it not, but we have had to reshuffle things but ...

Chief Education Officer:

We could share it with you at one of those meetings.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That would be helpful, thank you. Anyone else?

Chief Education Officer:

The other thing probably we ought to share with you is we have talked about we are not bringing Ofsted to the Island, and that is true, but we are developing our own evaluation framework to hold schools to account. That is being written as we speak and it will be piloted in September, and that is something as a Scrutiny Committee you might want us to share with you because that does take the Ofsted criteria. What we are not bringing is the Ofsted machinery but some of the criteria against which we can judge schools and their progress we are taking. So I think that would be quite important we share that with you as a Scrutiny Committee and ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you hoping for that to have a positive impact on their pupils or is that purely to monitor

Chief Education Officer:

No, the whole idea is to ... if you remember we talked about assistance to monitor child support and intervene in the work of schools in order to raise standards. This framework is designed to do that, it is a huge piece of work. So it may be worth looking at that in the summer term when it is almost ready to go.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so you will have support mechanisms to match that?

Chief Education Officer: Yes, exactly.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Chairman, if I may, one more question about union talks and while we appreciate that is a matter of pay terms and the States Employment Board, I just wonder if anything has been expressed to you?

The Minister for Education: About what in particular?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Just how the teaching staff feel.

The Minister for Education:

No, I think we have got one coming up shortly, have we not, that sort of thing?

Chief Education Officer:

The E.C.C. (Early Childhood Council) meeting.

The Minister for Education: Yes, the E.C.C. meeting.

Chief Education Officer:

I do not think it is on the agenda.

The Minister for Education: No, there is nothing ...

Chief Education Officer:

With the unions we seem to have, I think quite helpfully, separated out issues of pay, terms of condition to do with the S.E.B. (States Employment Board) through the negotiating bodies, and then when we meet the unions in terms of the E.C.C. and the partnership forum we tend not to go anywhere near that, we talk about ... the kind of conversations we are having here, recruitment of staff ...

The Minister for Education: Yes, teaching issues.

Chief Education Officer:

... support mechanisms, the need for training, those kind of issues, and we kind of separate them out. It is a delight to find that unions here can separate the 2 issues out and be very stringent and robust over paying conditions but have a very professional and engaged conversation with us about the things that affect the kids on the ground. I have not had a relationship like that in the past.

The Minister for Education: You could ask the union.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Yes, indeed. Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you concerned about potential strikes?

The Minister for Education:

We are aware it could possibly happen and certainly that is a concern; the director and I have talked about it quite a bit just recently. But at the moment, as the director has already said, the relationship we have with the unions is pretty strong, so we don't have any indication from them that that would happen at this point.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. I do not think there is anything particularly pressing. I have to ask, any further change in policy on the subsidies to the fee-paying schools?

The Minister for Education:

No policy change at this point, no.

Chief Education Officer:

Not yet, no, but that is something that is always under review. It depends on the levels of savings we are required to make.

The Deputy of St. John :

What is the current stance, based on the P.72 that former Senator Shenton brought forward in the States about fee-paying schools? They were supposed to stay at a level until ...

Chief Education Officer:

What it means is if we were to reduce the - I would not say subsidy, but fee-paying schools and their parents would say it is they that subsidise this system, so the grant - so if we were to reduce the grant to schools we would have to go to the States to do that. But if it means balancing our books then that is something we would look at but we would keep that and increase it to a minimum and spread it over as long as we possibly can.

The Deputy of St. John :

What is your savings target for the M.T.F.P.?

Chief Education Officer:

We have taken £6.8 million out of our ...

The Deputy of St. John : You have taken?

Chief Education Officer:

£6.8 million in terms of savings.

The Deputy of St. John :

But you have not taken that out of your budget yet, have you?

Chief Education Officer: Most of it, yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay, and that is by the end of the M.T.F.P.?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John : £6.8 million?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes. But then we have growth at the same time.

The Deputy of St. John : Yes, I know.

The Minister for Education: As the Deputy well knows.

Chief Education Officer:

Overall budget, taking our savings and growth, by the time we get to 2019, if things stay as they are, our net expenditure will remain flat.

The Deputy of St. John :

So what is your growth expected to be over the period in the M.T.F.P.?

Chief Education Officer:

It depends what you are counting as growth.

The Deputy of St. John : What do you count as growth?

Chief Education Officer:

Our growth is separated out because, as Deputy Doublet will tell you, £4.3 million of our growth is to do with demographics because we have more kids coming through, so our growth is - if you take that out - about another £4 million or £5 million. We had some money put back in because of a motion taken through at the time to the M.T.F.P., which actually balanced our books.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Have you done all of the work for the next phase of the M.T.F.P. then? You are saying you know where all the savings are coming from?

The Minister for Education: No.

Chief Education Officer:

No, we still have to find somewhere in the region of about £1.3 million.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So this £6.8 million, that is not all of the savings that you need to make?

Chief Education Officer:

No, we have to make another £1.3 million on top of that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay.

Chief Education Officer:

By the time we get to 2019, so we have ...

The Deputy of St. John :

Where did the £1.3 million come from?

Chief Education Officer:

Over our targets overall, we have not come up with savings yet or plans to make all the savings we need to make so we have to find an additional £1.3 million worth of savings within the system.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So this £6.8 million - I am sorry if I am asking ...

Chief Education Officer:

I have not come with the figures in front of me, I am afraid, so I am doing this by memory.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, we might need to talk in more detail. So the £6.8 million of save, is the impact of that already felt in the schools?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, we have already taken £6.8 million out of our expenditure plans.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, not just that you plan to and it will come out someday, it is the impact as well, okay. The £1.3 million ...

Chief Education Officer:

We have not identified yet £1.3 million worth of savings.

[17:15]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do you have any idea that ...

Chief Education Officer:

We are literally starting on that work, we had a department away day a few weeks ago and we came up with a whole range of ideas, ranging from the imaginative to the crackpot, and we have kept it under wraps.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You should not tell us about that.

The Minister for Education: Another unguarded moment there.

Chief Education Officer:

Another unguarded moment, yes. No, we asked people to be imaginative and they were, so there are one or 2 things there which ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So that was your department?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you using anything like the Lean programme and getting frontline staff to try and help you make savings?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, the Lean programme is very much possible, yes.

Chief Education Officer:

We had staff in front, so we had heads in the room and others. In fact the Lean programme was being used to drive up some of our savings. It is quite a good programme. But I have to be a bit careful with the figures because I do not have ...

The Minister for Education:

I think we had better have another conversation.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

I would just like the clarity, the £6.8 million was agreed in part of the M.T.F.P?

Chief Education Officer:

As I say, to get clarity I will need the fingers in front of me.

The Deputy of St. John :

The £6.8 was agreed as part of the M.T.F.P. that was agreed by the States in October, yes?

Chief Education Officer: We have made ...

The Deputy of St. John : I'm just trying to clarify.

Chief Education Officer:

As I say, I do not have the figures in front me so I would need to go and ... I do not want to mislead anyone.

The Deputy of St. John :

I just want to understand the £1.3 million and how that ...

Chief Education Officer:

Well, out of all the growth and savings we got, which I do not have in front me, what I do know is we have not identified where we are going to take £1.3 million worth of savings from between now and 2019. So we took everybody away to come up with ideas and they vary in viability. Our next finance assessment team are going to go through that and look at are there things we can take out, so there are some very good ideas in there, which frankly we should have thought of before but sometimes you just need clear minds. But I have not brought the figures with me so I have to be careful.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, that is fine, it is something I have noted ...

Chief Education Officer:

But overall, once we have found our £1.3 million worth of savings, by the time we get to 2019, unless we are asked to make more savings, our budget is flat.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : What do you mean?

Chief Education Officer: Well, based on the current ...

Executive Officer: It is the same level.

The Minister for Education: It is the same level.

Chief Education Officer:

So our budget of around about £100 million may look flat but in line with the length of the M.T.F.P. when you take both ...

Executive Officer:

So it is not going to go significantly up or significantly down, it will stay around about £100 million.

Chief Education Officer:

So in other departments the expenditure is going to come down, ours will remain flat.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so are you on track then to get us all the information for the M.T.F.P. maybe a little bit earlier this time because ...

Chief Education Officer: Yes, sure.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. Right, I am going to stop talking now; does anybody else want to ask any final questions? No, lovely, okay. We have not done too badly, it is 5.15 p.m. Thank you everybody for your answers.

The Minister for Education: Thank you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, do you want to add anything or clarify anything?

The Minister for Education:

No, I think you have covered all the bases there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

No, are you desperate to get out the door? Thank you everybody, thank you very much.