Education and Home Affairs Panel - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Education - Transcript - 22 September 2017

STATES OF JERSEY

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Education

FRIDAY, 22nd SEPTEMBER 2017

Panel:

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman) Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John

Witnesses:

The Minister for Education Chief Education Officer Chief Operating Officer Communications Manager

[11:31]

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour (Chairman):

Let us begin. Welcome, everybody, this is a quarterly public hearing with the Minister for Education. We are the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel. My name is Deputy Louise Doublet . I chair the panel and I will let the rest of my panel introduce themselves.

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour (Vice-Chairman):

Good morning, vice-chair and panel, Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour, District Petite Longueville.

Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John :

Tracey Vallois, Deputy of St. John .

Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier :

Sam Mézec , Deputy for St. Helier No. 2.

Scrutiny Officer:

Andy Harris , Scrutiny Officer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

This is our quarterly public hearing and we have for the first time engaged on social media with members of the public to request that they send in questions. We have a rather long list of questions. We will not be able to fit in every single question that the public has submitted to us but I wanted to take the opportunity to thank the public for submitting their questions and to promise that we will try and fit in as many of those as we possibly can. Could I remind members of the public and the media to switch their phones off please for the duration of the hearing? I will ask the Minister to introduce himself and his officers please.

The Minister for Education:

Good morning, Deputy Rod Bryans, St. Helier No. 2, Minister for Education.

Chief Education Officer:

Justin Donovan, Chief Education Officer.

Communications Manager:

Tracy Mourant. I do French liaison and ministerial support in communications.

Chief Operating Officer:

Christine Walwyn, Chief Operating Officer, Education.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, have you read and understood the statement that is there in front of you?

The Minister for Education: Yes, I have.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We are going to open with some questions on Jersey University or University Jersey and Deputy Maçon.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

A member of the public has expressed concern over the term of the use of the name "University Jersey" in the context of academic research, so can we ask: is there currently any academic research being undertaken within University Jersey?

The Minister for Education:

I guess there are 2 things. The first one is using the name "University". In the context of how they are called at University College Jersey, it is quite a legitimate way. They researched that before they embarked on it. It is an educational environment and in all education environments people are interested in learning so the answer is all staff at Highlands are engaged in certain scholarly activity and are required to complete a piece of work-based action research into teaching and learning. For example, 2 staff undertook a project to investigate how best to use feedback to improve learning. In these pieces of work they need to direct improvements in practice by lecturers and outcomes for students. Some higher education lecturers are also engaged in academic research relating to their specialist area. Two colleagues recently completed their doctoral studies and are publishing their work in history and early years' development, which will be great for us. Just to flesh out the reply a little bit further, the University College Jersey team are more highly qualified than many further educational colleges where higher education is taught; five of the 11 core staff have completed doctorates and a number are continuing their research.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So that is a yes, thank you.

The Minister for Education:

Sorry, just to finish off. Justin, do you want to just mention that?

Chief Education Officer:

So every now and again the research that all the staff carry out are pulled together into a single document shared with everybody. The last time that was done was a few years ago, and that is ... if you want some bedtime reading. So this is every member of staff at the University College, whether within the higher education or the F.E. (further education), carried out some basic research and it is all...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is within the institution, that is not like in their own time?

Chief Education Officer:

No, it is all ... we brought in an external professor to work it through. If you want to read, it is more than a gap read. But there are some interesting bits in there.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can you just, for the record, the name of that document?

Chief Education Officer:

It is called How to teach vocational education: reports from action research enquiries at Highlands College.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you very much.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is that available online?

Chief Education Officer:

No. I do not see why not. It can be put online.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think that would ... I suppose members of the public interested in it, I think that would be worth doing.

Chief Education Officer: Okay.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think that was quite comprehensive. Shall we move on? Can I ask again about University Jersey? How many students and how many enrolled on courses at University Jersey?

The Minister for Education:

Current numbers enrolled on University College Jersey programmes are 175, 118 full time, 57 part time, and there are still a number of late enrolments to process.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The 175 that is degree courses?

The Minister for Education:

Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: That is over the 3 years?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

What are currently the most popular courses?

The Minister for Education:

That is interesting. I do not know I know that.

Chief Education Officer:

Business and management. Business and I.T. (information technology).

The Minister for Education:

So we have ... this came up at the I.o.D. (Institute of Directors) debate last night and the success that University College Jersey has had in their degrees, and I will pass this on to you, but it does denote how many passes that they have had and the students that are attending, so that would provide you with the information you are looking for. If you turn it over there is further information.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. That can be publicly available, yes?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Thank you. Now can I ask: how far progressed are plans to introduce courses in collaboration with the University of Caen?

The Minister for Education:

This is precisely why I brought Tracy Mourant along. I will just explain first of all. This is really a bit of a slow burn with us, we are working on it over some time, but we have developed strong links with the University and been exploring whether Jersey students could go there. It is on our doorstep. It has a strong international department and the cost is obviously much lower than it is in the U.K. (United Kingdom). We are in the process of finalising an agreement with Caen University that will reserve on-campus accommodation places for a number of Jersey students and it shows that the support is in place. While this is not an option for all students it is something that will grow slowly. This year a Jersey student has gone there, although one of their parents is French, just to give you some context. There is an art college in Caen that teaches bilingually in French and English and is very popular, and just 2 hours from Paris. We also have been speaking to the team there as well. It is worth noting, I will not go into all this detail, but we have the Recteur of Education from Normandy coming, quite a senior politician, to help us consolidate some of the agreements that have been made. But if I can just ask Tracy, who attended a 3-week course over the summer to sort of articulate that situation.

Communications Manager:

I went to Caen, part of my role is French Liaison and I have been working with the team from Caen University. I went there for 2 reasons. First of all, to improve my French so if I am French Liaison it needs to be of a decent standard, but also to explore the university and just to really check out whether it is feasible for our students to go there and do courses at a French university because obviously that is a concern. The language is a really big issue. What I did was a course that had about 80 students on it from all over the world, from Hong Kong to Colombia, from South Korea to Texas. Students from everywhere. What some of them were doing was exactly what one wanted to find out about, which was a year and 2 semesters of upgrading their French. I wanted to see whether it was feasible for them to do it. Some of them were already at the university doing this. Some were doing just a short summer course. The answer is: it is feasible for people to do it if they have the drive and the enthusiasm and they really want to do it and they want to be there, and it is ... if they reach a certain level they are more than capable of doing a degree in French. I met people who were doing it. So that is very reassuring for our students. One of the people I met from Hong Kong had arrived in Caen with little or no French, done the year and was just doing this extra 3- week course because it has a cultural element to it. You learn about the country and you learn about the history and all sorts of aspects.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I was wondering about that. If you could go to a French university with ... what kind of level of French would you need?

Communications Manager:

If you did it you would need an A-level standard. But if you do a French intensive course, so that is what I was doing, was every day 8.45 until 12 noon in the morning, in the classroom, and then in the afternoon cultural visits and then homework as well. If you study intensively the progress is quite surprising. I went up from G.C.S.E. (General Certificates of Secondary Education) to A.S. (Advanced Subsidiary) level in 3 weeks and took an exam. They have a department at Caen University that specifically caters for foreign students. It is called Carre International. They teach 13 languages there and they use it to support the international students while they are studying at Caen. So you can either top up your French while you are there or you can learn Russian or Japanese or lots of different languages. So they are very geared up to it and it is quite a slick operation.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I just wanted to ask about this 3-week course that you did. So in terms of widening the participation is that something that the department could fund; the 3-week course so that more could go?

The Minister for Education:

We intend to fund that, if that is what is necessary. But what we have said to the public, and we had a really good response when we first brought this out to the public, and we invited them up to Haute Vallée to hear what the Caen people had to offer and there were far more people than we expected, and we will pay for that one year for those students to go to that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Plus the 3-week intensive...

Communications Manager:

The 3-week is separate. It is a kind of add-on. When all the other students have gone they do the 3-week course, but it is...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But that 3 weeks would be included in that year or separate?

The Minister for Education: It is a separate thing but it is...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : But would we fund it?

Chief Education Officer:

It would be a year, so that the young person who is leaving school go to France for a year to acquire French and we would fund the entire year. So at the end of that year they would have sufficient French to carry on a French degree, which is then relatively ... well, it is free.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So that is prior to doing a degree?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Communications Manager:

So the 3-week course is a summer course open to anybody. So on my course it was about 75 per cent students/graduates from other countries and about 25 per cent of people from every walk of life: a film producer, a midwife from Canada, a horse trainer who had moved to France. Anybody can go and do that 3-week course. So if someone from Jersey, including our students, the youngest people there were from the University of Georgia, and they were 18, 19, 20. They were doing like a 3-week intensive course just to boost their French and have the experience and go home.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just so I am clear on this. So if a student wants to go and study at Caen University and they want to improve their French so that they are at the required level they have to do a year prior to starting their degree?

Communications Manager: They do not have to.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But that is what you are offering?

The Minister for Education:

It is to help them get up to that standard. Partly it is the induction and everything. I visited Tracy, we went over for a completely separate matter, just to meet her while we were there for an opening of an art exhibition, and it was fascinating to see. This is what France wants to inhabit, this cultural exchange. The ideas that were being talked about, the young people, and going back to the point Tracy was making, it is open for everybody. So that notion of not just learning about the language but learning about the culture of France and learning about Caen in particular was fascinating.

Communications Manager:

The other thing I did when I was there was visit a bilingual school to have a look at what happens.

[11:45]

There is a small primary school in Caen that has a bilingual stream. I also took some teachers from Jersey that came over for a day trip and we took them round the university so that they could see first-hand. As a direct result of that visit some of our year 10 students from an 11 to 16 school will be spending the week in Caen in the student accommodation on campus at the university next summer.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just go back to this course? So if there are students that would like to go straight into a degree course in France is there an option for them to have some kind of access course, perhaps like the 3-week course, something they can do over the summer rather than adding on an extra year? Is that something you can finance?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes. Certainly for some young people they need more than that 3-week programme in which case we will do that. It is part of a wider strategy to try and broaden our education, as we have spoken before, into Europe. In the meantime of course degrees are taught in Holland, for example, in English and at 3,000 euros and another great experience. So we just want to gradually open the doors to a European study rather than assume everybody is going to go back to the U.K.

The Minister for Education:

I think this year has been the biggest number we have had going away to foreign colleges.

Communications Manager: It is still small.

The Minister for Education: Yes, it is small.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

With that, is there the cost of living? It is not just looking at the fees we pay to the university. It is also the cost of living when you get to those countries, so Holland is still quite pricey and if you want to go to a Scandinavian country.

Chief Education Officer:

It is not necessarily as pricey as Jersey though, I mean in terms of standards of living. So, yes, we have looked at that but it would certainly ... we would not want people to go to a European university because it is cheaper. That is a bonus. We just think it would be an opportunity for young people. For example, you could not go to Caen and study law unless you wanted to practise law in France. But you might want to go there and study finance. So it is not for everybody. We just want to broaden the options and open the doors a little.

Communications Manager:

Certainly the cost of living in Caen is much lower. I think student accommodation starts from 240 euros a month. That is onsite and then obviously if you move off campus you would pay more.

Chief Education Officer:

Caen reserve on-campus accommodation for our students.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Can I just ask before we move on: what type of support is given to students to handle like the immigration issues, which of course would not happen with a U.K. university?

Communications Manager:

They do it for people from all over the world so they are used to it. What we are looking at doing is getting Alliance Française to help us fill out the forms. The forms are quite long and complicated so Alliance have offered and Maison de Normandie have offered to help any students from Jersey that need it.

The Minister for Education:

That is the reason for the visit from the Recteur is also to flesh out those parameters.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just final question on this one: how will students be made aware that this is an option?

Communications Manager:

The people from Caen University are over next week. They are visiting Guernsey and we have asked them just to pop here to talk to our careers and French teachers again, and they are happy to come any time and do parents' evenings. So I think we are going to keep working on that. I am also planning to do a single page on gov.je that has all our French links and brings everything together. So you can click on the page and you can see there is an awful lot going on. Caen University have also got links through them for one of our 11 to 16 schools to do potentially a link up with Caen Premier League Football Club, that is there, which is very exciting. So there are lots going on, lots that people can get to hear about. We need all the resources in one place.

The Minister for Education:

Also, on the opening evening for students and parents who are looking round colleges anyway, Caen was included.

Communications Manager:

They come to the higher education fairs, as do Rennes.

Chief Education Officer:

I suppose the last point to make; it is part of a wider strategy to raise the quality and the outcomes of language teaching on the Island. So we have doubled the amount of French in primary schools. We have a review which is looking at improving language teaching across the Island. So it is two sides of the same coin.

The Minister for Education:

Parents will see that golden thread with what we are doing in the primary schools right the way through to say: "Oh, my child can access that now."

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Brilliant, thank you. I think Deputy Mézec has questions on the Youth Service.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

So obviously we have the election coming up next year so I wanted to ask what the Youth Service is doing to raise awareness of that for particularly people between the ages of 16 and 18?

The Minister for Education:

The Education Department, Youth Service and States Greffe have already started work; I think some of you know some of this already, back in the last academic year on this. There was a meeting in June in the States Chamber. As always care must be taken about differentiating between teaching young people about the importance of voting and how the system works in providing a platform to one candidate but not their rival. That is to give you some background. Firstly, we have got staff refreshers. Some teachers will only have been in Jersey a short time and might want a refresher session about how our States operate. The better informed and more confident our teachers are the better their students' education will be. So we have arranged 2 twilight sessions, which we call them, to take place in the States Chamber in October for the teachers, staff refreshers. In our student lessons, and this is related to the point you were asking about the Youth Service, the Youth Service have created a catchall lesson in conjunction with young people themselves, so this is the young people saying to the Youth Service: "This is what we want to know" instead of us telling them. Again, it was working with the States Greffe. They visit schools and that is already underway, that is happening. Last week they did 2 sessions at Hautlieu. The lesson will be explained during the

session in October and the resources presentation and lesson plan will be shared with any teacher that would like to use it. The question I was asked before about registration and forms, I think it was asked in the Assembly, just to reiterate, at the last election voter registration forms were available in schools but we would like to receive them earlier this time. So that is another discussion that we have got with the Greffe. Likewise, the publicity material being developed by the States Greffe. We distributed this last time in paper form and all social media, which has now a much greater reach obviously. The Greffe will produce material aimed at younger voters. There will not be any online registration but mail drops and distribution can take place in the New Year. Three other things: we have got student hustings. The usual format is not appealing to young people, so a type of speed dating event is being explored. As usual, this would take place just after school so it would not impinge on lesson time. Then we have been working with a company called Love Theatre, you might have come across, it has been very successful at articulating some of the other concerns they have within schools. So they have been commissioned to create a play around this, which is what they are doing. The plan is for voter registration forms to be available at the end of all the performances so they have got some idea of context. Then you may or may not know, but on Parish counts, actually on election night, young people are involved in helping with the actual counting of the votes and moving round and running round with boxes and all that sort of thing. So they are heavily involved. I guess the other thing just to say, even today, St. Martin 's primary school is doing a mock election as we speak. So we try to capture them as early as possible.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Do they still do school council at primary?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Communications Manager:

Incidentally, helping out at the hustings was started off in St. Peter . That was a Youth Service initiative. They want to expand it. In the U.K. when they have got the count and everybody runs with the boxes and things, it is not quite...

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It is a big theatre because the schools in the U.K. are really competitive about will they get their area ... the most quickly progressed and all that.

Communications Manager:

We need to kind of focus in on making that engagement ... not entertaining, that is the wrong word but engaging for young people so that it has something interesting about it and engaging.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

That covered the supplementaries on that specific point so unless you 3, we can go on to the next part. I have seen a leaflet and some tweets to know that there is equality promotion work going on with the Youth Service. I know that there is an L.G.B.T.Q. (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer) group which has been running sessions. Is this sort of thing also being applied to other areas of equality like disability, race, religion, that sort of thing? Is that something that is being explored?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Before you answer, can I just ask for the answers to be a little bit more succinct so we can get through them?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, the reality is the Youth Service are highly trained and highly competent. I am sure even your colleague at the end of the table [Scrutiny Officer] there can verify that because he used to work for the Youth Service. Yes, in all areas we are helping with those things.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I have seen examples in the U.K. where when this sort of thing has been pursued, shall we say parents with different attitudes can sometimes have a bit of a backlash towards this, is this something that the Youth Service has seen at all in Jersey?

Communications Manager:

Quite the opposite. They have set up a parents group for the L.G.B.T.Q. work that they are doing. So they are going to schools to talk generally to school audiences about difference and accepting and equality. There is a group that does that and they have set up a parents group, which I know has met quite a few times.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So there have not been any objections from parents?

Communications Manager:

Generally if children have come forward and they are finding difficulties the parents are quite grateful to have a wider community that is experiencing the same issues to support them. But there is no question of anyone being involved in anything that they do not have parental consent for or that they do not want to do themselves. It is entirely focused on what the young people need.

Chief Education Officer:

The response has been grown up and sensible.

Communications Manager: It is a really welcome service.

The Minister for Education:

I think that is a reflection of the way the Youth Service deals with these things. It is also worth noting that the Youth Service is in the early days of creating a youth parliament, so that again will answer and address some of the concerns that are generally had.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is that not already happening?

The Minister for Education:

There is, that was started by a bunch of students but what I had seen up in Scotland and what the Youth Service were working on independently was a more formulated way of doing that, reaching a greater number of students. So what happened with the youth parliament and the girls from J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and Vic College and thing, it became quite isolated. It needed to be more of an Island-wide process.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Anything else on that particular one?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : No.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

There is the new charity, Jersey Support Youth. What additional projects do you have planned working in conjunction with that?

Chief Education Officer:

Well, it is new. It has been set up quite recently so the idea of that is to have an arm. We have a number of people who want to contribute sometimes financially to youth work but do not want to put it through the States. So that has been set up as a separate charity. It has not been up and running very long. So it is a case of watch this space, I am afraid.

Communications Manager:

They have said that the initial project they want to look at are the equality and the projects around vulnerable people. So I think they are looking at the missing children. If your child goes missing, those sorts of projects, they are focused on vulnerable young people.

Chief Education Officer: But early days yet.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, shall we move on? Thank you. Moving on to schools more generally now. Minister, I want to ask you about teacher workload and I recall early on in your term of office you made a commitment to reduce the burden of paperwork and administrative tasks so that teachers would have more time to spend on teaching and preparing for teaching. What evidence do you have that shows that you have done that?

The Minister for Education:

I think the evidence first of all comes in a teacher survey that we put out to all teachers working in conjunction with the unions, which I think you are fully aware of. In fact, we are in a situation where we are now going through a second tranche of teacher survey once again with the unions. The reason for that, and to be fair they have actually said that and both camps have been quite brave about it in terms of wanting to gain access and gain knowledge. The reason for that is we want to directly understand what the concerns are. So we want to look at what was first said in the original survey and then with a few extra added questions again verified by the unions, what the differentials are to see if there has been any ingress in terms of what we have done, the work groups that we have put in place. So from the first teacher survey - I will try and be as succinct as possible here - we then formulated various work groups, which I will ask the Chief Officer to talk about. They were very formulated to the concerns that we had with regard to workloads and wellbeing and the health of our teachers that is paramount that we do that because if we do that they are going to be good teachers and they are going to get a good education. That is then going to ... those work groups I think are formulated, they work, and now we are going to look at what the second survey produces.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So is it fair to say then that workload is something that you still feel you would like to focus on, on making that better?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, of course. There is a job to be done with all teachers. That is part of what they do, whether it is moderation or marking or lesson plans, and all the kind of things that go into being a teacher and you yourself know how complicated that is.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : We both do.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, we can all go back and remember those days. But we have looked at all of that. This is the reason for bringing in I.T., making it much more accessible, much easier for teachers to record lessons and everything else.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Sorry, just to press you, Minister, with the I.T., I think that specifically the use of the new I.T. system in terms of collecting the data and using that for assessment that was one of the measures that you informed us would contribute to reducing the administrative burden and the workload there. What evidence do you have from the teachers that that has reduced their workload in terms of assessment and paperwork?

[12:00]

The Minister for Education: Are you asking me or Justin?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes.

The Minister for Education:

That is fine. The evidence has been passed through those groups I told you about, the working groups. There is no doubt from our perspective that teachers have ... it has been embryonic in terms of it has only recently happened in terms of what they are trying to produce in work. But we can see evidence already that teachers, once they get to understand the system and once they understand what is necessary to do, it is completely different to the system you and I previously knew. We would have to go through masses of paperwork and things. So once they have set it up they can just add to it simply.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just to sum up what you said. So it is only just recently happened that it is impacting on the workload, so it is just now that it is starting to reduce the workload?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, and that is the reason we want ... another reason for us wanting to go for this second survey to see if we can see if that is actually evidenced.

Chief Education Officer:

Just to be clear, so if you remember in the past we talked about having e-data for all sorts of reasons, not just to reduce workload. We now have data which we are using and very effective. In terms of the M.I. system introduced, which is called "SIMS", it has been procured, it has been introduced, but we are just getting to the end of the training programme and now we are in the teething. Some schools are struggling with it, some schools are flying with it. So we are in the year of transition. I think, yes, we are getting positive feedback from some schools. Other schools are finding their machines are too old.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Right, the new system. So we are going around school by school to make sure the system ... so that is the point we are at. I think the teachers in classrooms will start to find the impact in terms of making life easier for them as this year unfolds; that has always been the case, so we are bang on track.

The Minister for Education:

It is probably worth introducing these 2 little documents. These are Reducing Teacher Workload which has been produced in conjunction with the individual organisations named on the back.

Chief Education Officer:

Just so we know where we are: so we had the survey, we then had focus groups where we asked individual members of staff to talk to independent people - so we had no officers there and no unions there either, we just had independent people - and they provided us with the outcomes of that. What came out of it was the 3 key bits of work that teachers found were time consuming. When you press teachers and say: "What is this workload?" apart from things like going on trips and filling in risk assessments, the day to day workload was around 3 areas. One was marking, they found that exhausting and tiring and sometimes not as effective as it should be; 2 was planning and making sure their lessons were planned correctly; and thirdly was the use of data, as we have just discussed.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So this is the same things that have come from the U.K. then?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, so what we have got are the 3 documents which were produced, which are proposals to reduce workload in those 3 areas.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Where have these documents come from?

Chief Education Officer:

These are U.K. documents that the unions and the D.f.E. (Department for Education) work with. So these have been to the unions here, all the unions have agreed that this is what they want as a starting point. We have a working group of teachers who were in the focus groups - so we do not have to rehearse everything again - the unions, and officers are working their way through this to produce proposals to reduce workload. But rather than start from scratch we are starting with these documents because everybody seems happy with them. The teachers have read them and say it is a nice balance between doing marking, which has an impact on attainment, without marking for the sake of it; so it is a case of marking less but more targeted and smarter. So these documents will be the basis of our conversations within that working group. Its first meeting is just this side of half term.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so we have seen how these new data systems should eventually start having an impact. Given some of the media reports and things that the unions are saying, is it fair to say that there is more that you could do? What other things are you doing or could you be doing?

The Minister for Education:

This is open to all civil servants rather than just particularly teachers, all the States are open to this; this is AXA, healthcare, home and work issues, you get confidential numbers, anybody that rings those things can get help and support with regard to their health and wellbeing. So we are actively seeking to make sure that any kind of issues that are brought up we identify and then get down to see what the actual nitty gritty is, what the granular detail of that is, so that we can address it as quickly as possible. I guess it is worth saying even when we did the first original survey that 87 per cent of the teachers in our schools were satisfied with their current role, which is quite a high number.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is this something that you can maybe update us on? I can see you are working on it so is it something you can update us on in perhaps 2 or 3 months on your progress?

Chief Education Officer:

Perhaps when we next meet we will bring somebody from the working group here.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That would be good, thank you.

Chief Education Officer:

Or come and observe one of the meetings.

The Minister for Education: Come to us.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If you could send the dates to our officer and we could consider that, thank you.

The Deputy of St. John :

There is evidence to suggest that bullying is being used to improve results at schools. Is this acceptable, and what is the department doing about it?

The Minister for Education:

Can I answer that first of all; bullying is never acceptable in any form, it does not matter where we find it in life; I find it abhorrent. So I would not accept it as anything to do with the teaching profession and I certainly would not accept it if it was anything to do with children. I just wanted to make that personal statement.

Chief Education Officer:

If we suspect there is bullying we intervene and I think we have talked about a case where we intervened, despite nobody providing any evidence but we still intervened. We do take bullying very seriously. When you say there is evidence, if there is evidence it needs to come to us and we will deal with it, we always do. But the vast majority of our schools ... in fact, I would not agree with you, I do not think there are bullying tactics in place.

The Deputy of St. John :

I know the particular case you refer to but I recognise that there may be issues in terms of obtaining the evidence. What is there to protect people in terms of coming forward and being open and transparent with you about what is going on and whether it is bullying or whether it might be something else? Where is that ability to have that conversation without the fear of losing your job, for example?

Chief Education Officer:

Well we have policies, central H.R. (Human Resources) have policies around this, they have got some great policies, and it sets out that people can go to their union reps, they can go to colleagues. There is plenty of advice in terms of where you can go. But in the end if people have got real concerns about how they are being treated they do need to come forward and say so and they do need to provide evidence; and when they do that we act straight away, robustly and quickly in the very, very rare cases that that is the case. If there is a problem, sometimes somebody might be struggling in their role and finding their job difficult, they may have a line manager that is frankly just asking them to do their job properly and sometimes people will say: "I am being bullied" when sometimes they are being asked to do their job well. There is a fine line between robust management and management which can become overly robust and more aggressive, and that is a fine line to tread. But certainly if we think there is bullying going on in any of our schools we will deal with it very, very quickly.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Can I just ask, Minister, if teachers feel that they are being bullied what kind of things should they be noting down or recording; what types of evidence would you need to see in order to take action?

The Minister for Education:

Well, it is like lots of things, it does not matter whether it is bullying or any other case where it has been highlighted and people are going through protocols, anybody who was thinking about this situation would make notes. It seems to me important looking back over some of the cases that have been highlighted in the past that you have to date these things, if you feel you have gone through a bully situation then how you report that to one of your colleagues is an example, and that conversation being recorded so there is some sort of evidence there. The detail of that evidence is much more down to interpretation. But I think anybody who feels they have been bullied would take notes?.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Would you commit to sending some information out to all your teaching staff on what staff should do if they feel they are being bullied, so what evidence they should take, who they should talk to? Could you remind all your staff of the processes?

The Minister for Education:

I think the Chief Officer has already said there is a protocol already in place to do with whistleblowing, I cannot remember the last time I looked at it with regard to the detail of what is recommended but there is certainly something there for staff.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I know you send some really good regular newsletters and you write letters and emails to your staff; could you draw your attention to those policies because I know there are lots of different policies and if it came from you I think it is worth reiterating that.

Chief Education Officer: The problem with...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Sorry, could I just speak with the Minister.

The Minister for Education:

I think what the Chief Officer is going on to say is the problem with this in regard to bullying in particular, if you just isolate that as an issue that you are prompting the idea that there is bullying in our schools. As I say - and as the Chief Officer has already related - in the majority of cases we do not see it and we do not see any evidence of it, but if it is brought to our attention we deal with it. So if it were part and parcel with other things we were talking about and providing information, yes, I would not have a problem with that.

Chief Education Officer:

If we thought there was a real issue about bullying in our schools we would do just that, but we do not think there is. We have had reported to us isolated cases and we have dealt with it really quickly and decisively as we could. I think sending a note out like that suggests there is an issue when if there is it is isolated. I do not think there is a culture in our schools of that kind.

The Deputy of St. John :

But it is not necessarily about a culture, is it, it is about making sure that something does not escalate to the point where people think there is a culture; and it is not us trying to promote the case that there is this culture completely across the States - or just in schools - that there is this bullying issue. It is the fact that there has been evidence that there has been bullying and we want to make sure that it does not escalate. So it is all right saying there are policies and there are protocols, but people only have so much time - we just talked about workload for teachers - to read those policies and sometimes they do not even make sense. It is so they feel comfortable and there is awareness, and that those who may be being bullied recognise and put themselves in check as well; there is the balance there.

Chief Education Officer:

When you say there is evidence, there has been evidence of one or 2 very isolated cases. We have evidence of very isolated cases of fraud, we do not send a note out: "Please do not commit fraud." We have very isolated cases of teachers who step outside of various policies; we deal with them. If we thought there was a trend happening or a real issue or a cultural problem then I think we would send out something to say: "Look, this is an issue, we need to deal with it." What we do have in place I think are good triggers; where we are lucky is the unions here are very, very good at picking this up and deal with it very well. What I would not want to do is ... for example, we had in the press we have a crisis with recruitment; we do not. Just because somebody says we do does not mean we do have a crisis. So what I would not want to do is send out a note to all schools on an issue which we think we have under control. If we started getting more and more evidence that this is an issue and it is a problem then we may take a more blanket approach, but what we would not want to do is highlight something which we do not think is a major issue.

The Deputy of St. John :

But that is the point though, is it not, you "think" it is not a major issue. There may be issues with people bringing evidence forward. What we are saying is that ensuring that people are comfortable enough and there is that atmosphere and there is that behaviour where people feel like they can talk to someone or deal with it in the appropriate manner so that it does not escalate to the point where it becomes a culture.

Chief Education Officer:

The feedback we get from the staff is that is the case and we get positive feedback constantly from staff, school by school. As I say, if there is an example which is something which is out of kilter we will deal with it.

The Minister for Education:

Well, it is also because of your background, Deputy , that we ... the reason we have regular meetings with the unions, and they are the people who if a teacher is concerned in any way with regard to what you have just been discussing they are always the first port of call they would go to, to say: "This is the situation." Our regular meetings, if there is highlighted on that then we will then say at that point of time: "Okay, where is the evidence? What do we need to do in this particular case?" So we are aware of what is going on and you quite often will challenge me and say: "But do you actually know?" The first port of call is those quite robust discussions that we have with the unions about any issues they want to deal with.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we have touched on that - the 2 of us - previously, Minister, that the unions do represent the majority of the staff but there are always going to be pockets of teachers in schools where the teachers are not even talking to the unions, they might not be talking to management, and they might not be talking to the unions. I see that you were thinking about this, Minister, when we are questioning you. I do think it is reasonable that we request that this information is sent out to teachers. Personally I disagree that it is going to be making teachers think that there is a culture of bullying. I think, Minister, there would be a way that you could send an email and you could phrase it in such a way, like you said, it is a personal statement: "I do not agree with any bullying." I think that would reinforce that message and it would also protect staff and make them aware of the procedures. I would like to press you on that because I think that is a reasonable request; would you consider?

[12:15]

The Minister for Education:

My problem with it is - which has been highlighted by the Chief Officer - that it comes down to a very subjective thing and Jersey is a microcosm, it is a potboiler for pressure when people have got an axe to grind about one thing or another, and we have seen this. The reason for the advocacy of making sure there is some sort of evidence and it does not become ... and that is my concern really. I certainly do not mind making a statement and repeating what I have just said in the Scrutiny Panel

- and this is public information anyway so they will see that being said in the first place - but it would be among other things. I do agree with my Chief Officer; I would not want to send a signal out that we believe there is an epidemic of bullying across our schools because it is not the case.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think if it is among another communication that is reasonable, so are you saying that you will...

The Minister for Education:

If we have got other information to send out then...

Chief Education Officer:

You send a note out to all staff at the end of each term, do you not?

The Minister for Education:

Yes, every term because I like to be connected with my teachers and praise them for the kind of work that they are doing within our schools and relate to the situation that they find themselves in, so that could easily be part of that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, that seems reasonable.

The Minister for Education:

I will copy you in on that email.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you. I do have a question about Pupil Premium but, Minister, could you send via email any updates on the progress of Pupil Premium please because we need to move on?

The Minister for Education: Are you short in time?

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes. Do you want to ask...

The Minister for Education: Yes, we have a fact sheet.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, that would be lovely, thank you. Are these for us to keep, these things that you are giving us?

The Minister for Education: Yes.

Communications Manager:

They are all gov.je, the policies are all gov.je.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, yes. I know I have seen lots of things about premiums.

The Minister for Education:

We have got a new policy on the...

Chief Education Officer: That sets out the new position.

Communications Manager:

Just to be pedantic, sorry, we call it Jersey Premium. If Seán were here he would insist on it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, sorry, Jersey Premium. Okay, noted. Minister, I questioned you in the Chamber on Rouge Bouillon School and you said you were having some meetings about the land there that might be used. Is there any further update?

The Minister for Education:

There is not any further, no, simply because when I broached the subject with the Minister for Home Affairs, who is integral to it and things, they were waiting for some information to come through before we wanted to have a meeting; it had some substance to what we were going to talk about. I mean, we are quite peripheral to all of that in the first place, the fact we butt up to the rest of everything with just a school.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But that is something you are pushing for?

The Minister for Education:

Absolutely because it would be fantastic. My 2 children both went to Rouge Bouillon for their primary school, and I was on the governing body.

Chief Education Officer:

It is worth mentioning in the meantime, the early years backs on to that piece of land, there is a small budget and we are hoping to keep some of that land and extend the early years provision.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Some of the land from the fire station?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes. I think it will be years before that is settled so in the meantime those young children could have much more play space, outdoor play, so we are pressing on that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Brilliant. Can you update us on any progress?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Can I just ask, bearing in mind there are now plans for a significant increase in number of houses in this part of town, is this going to be something that you will look at, just bearing in mind the potential number of extra children in the catchment areas, not just for Rouge Bouillon but for Springfield and ones in the area. Is that something you are conscious of and will be looking at?

The Minister for Education:

We are hugely conscious. Apart from anything, like you do...

Deputy S.Y. Mézec : Thirty seconds away.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, I live in that area and certainly I have been seeing the planning appeals and various things saying that very thing. It really gives me great concern that we seem to be pouring a lot of people into that particular area, and I think the North of Town Masterplan has been incorrect in its assumptions and I was very pleased to see that Andium bought that site and there is to be a reduction in numbers there. It is a bit of N.I.M.B.Y.-ism (not in my backyard) so I will not go into the detail of it but there is a building which is going to be on the old Play.com which still again increases the numbers. So you are absolutely right, I am very conscious of that and I am very conscious of what we have in our schools, but then equally that is the reason we increase the classes into Rouge Bouillon. Generally we have got some levers we can articulate should that become a problem. But, again, it just highlights the need to have those joined-up conversations so we can get more space.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just briefly, you informed us there would be a conference for teachers being planned. How are the plans going for that?

The Minister for Education:

We were just talking about it this morning in fact. We were concerned on several fronts; right from the point we came in - both myself as Minister and the Chief Officer - we wanted to be able to have a point in time when we could say this is either the vision that we are working towards and the principles and everything and we have gone past that, we have worked all our way through that. So what we wanted to say at the next opportunity would be: "This is what we have achieved over this period of time, or not so much what we have achieved but what you have achieved, and these are the considerations for what we want to do moving forward." But we are just really conscious it is very difficult to put into a school year a time when we take teachers out. We are conscious we are all saying to parents: "Make sure your children turn up to school" and then we have to do the same with the teachers. So at the moment we are still in consideration of when the date would be, and funding is always an issue, and then equally making sure that everybody is fully aware of what we are doing. So we are still in the planning stages.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : So it might not happen if...

Chief Education Officer:

Finding a venue big enough at the time we need it is pretty difficult.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

The last one was at Haute Vallée, was it not?

Chief Education Officer: We would not get them all in.

The Minister for Education:

We would not get them all in, in fact I was up the R.J.A. and H.S. (Royal Jersey Agricultural and Horticultural Society) and that is kind of what we had booked but unfortunately they have got problems with the licence or something.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I was going to ask you about the business plan; I know you have done a very recent update, is there anything further to what you have put in your update?

The Minister for Education: I cannot think of...

Chief Education Officer:

When we spoke before we said that after 3 years we would get to a point where we would have built the basics that we need for the standards to rise; we have done that. So the next stage is to embed those things in. But there will always be things we could change and I suppose the 3 big things which we are working on; one is early years and we have an independent report coming through next month on reorganising the early years because it is not quite right. The second is we have mentioned languages; language teaching on the Island is not where it should be, especially as we are so close to France, and that is up and running, we have a group of teachers being ably led by one of our senior officers. The third is a digital vocational pathway, key stage 4, so you may have noticed yesterday we managed to convince one of our secondary heads to step out of headship and join us at the department to focus on key stage 4 technical offer for young people. We have 150 to 200 young people we think every year would benefit from a slightly different curriculum. So those are the 3 big areas.

The Minister for Education: And the skills strategy as well.

Chief Education Officer:

And the skills strategy, which we will launch next month.

The Deputy of St. John :

There was public submission of a question with regards to particularly cyber security skills and the fact that the States of Jersey have just released the cyber strategy. They want to know what your department are doing with regards to providing those skills, and why there is not even a local test centre for these types of things because it is becoming a big issue. It is something that obviously this person believes that should be up there among all the most important areas.

The Minister for Education:

It is an important area but it is very specific and it is very small in terms of its context. But I can tell you - because again it was something that came up in the debate yesterday - how closely we work with Digital Jersey and how closely we have been going to identify what they are looking for because this one is a question from the public but they have got the greater understanding of what the digital expectations and offerings are. They have said now: "You are on track" and I was saying it last night, what we are producing on Thinking Differently of the original digital thing. We have hit all of those targets and now we are considering a Thinking Differently digital 2, which is the new strategy related to digital. That sort of thing is going into the mix because I have heard it from Tony Moretta. It is not just cyber security, there is a whole thing to do with big data, A.I. (artificial intelligence), nanotechnology and everything else. So what we have and what we are being credited for, working together, is that we have got a common purpose in trying to produce the groundwork, as it were, for all the students. So all of our students now have digital skills right the way through their education, rather than just focusing on certain ... and different skills as well, not just in coding which is where we all sort of start ...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : When is it compulsory to?

The Minister for Education: Up to 16.

Chief Education Officer:

In England we know kids drop it at 14. We took a view here, consulting on the new curriculum 2 years ago now, that stopping the idea of computing at the age of 14 right through to young adulthood their own knowledge will be self-learnt and on Playstations, so we have kept it as compulsory through to 16. Our next step is to get into some detail about this. The police, for example, are quite interested in cyber security and so is - as the Minister says – Digital Jersey. There is also a company

- while you were talking I was trying to remember the name of that company I went to see. It will come to me when I stop thinking about it - who want to work with us to help develop that bit of...

The Minister for Education: C5?

Chief Education Officer:

No, it was not C5. It will come to me when I am not thinking about it...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That is the 2 years before G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) year, is it not?

Chief Education Officer:

No, it is the G.C.S.E. year, so our young people go right through. They will not necessarily do a G.C.S.E. in it but they will study computing through to the age of 16.

The Minister for Education:

I mentioned briefly the skills strategy, which we have now signed off upon or we will be today, £1.4 million, this is an Island-wide strategy but it has been facilitated by our department, and integral to all of that will be working with Digital Jersey about the aspects of what they need to produce for a workforce of people here on the Island.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

With I.T. (Information Technology), I do not know if it is just that the schools themselves say what G.C.S.E.s are compulsory; do you instruct the schools as to what G.C.S.E.s every child must take, like English, maths?

Chief Education Officer:

We have a midpoint, so we have a Jersey curriculum which is compulsory in law and unlike England ours is slightly more definitive, so P.H.S.E. (Personal Health and Social Education) is compulsory here, I.T. is compulsory here; these are not compulsory in the U.K. In terms of the G.C.S.E.s there are choices so, for example, as long as they do a humanities ... so we have set up a board which meets regularly and consists of officers and head teachers. If a school wants to pursue a certain G.C.S.E. exam they have to go to the board first and the board decides whether or not that G.C.S.E. is appropriate. Because in the past what we inherited here were G.C.S.E.s which did not lead anywhere.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But just in terms of core subjects I want to know about, are there any that every child has to do?

Chief Education Officer: Sure, English, maths, science.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

English, maths and science, so would you consider making I.T. one of those?

Chief Education Officer: I.T. is compulsory, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

But at G.C.S.E. level so that every child...

Chief Education Officer:

No, not for G.C.S.E. The reason for that is that we thought long and hard about it, and particularly talking with Digital Jersey and industry and commerce, we would not want an examination board in England to tell Jersey's economy and finance what I.T. skills young people need. We think that it should be based on Jersey's economic...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So it is more tailored the one the one you are doing?

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, there are some key skills like coding, use of spreadsheets and stuff where, you know, you just have to do. So, for example, if Jersey wanted to have a focal point on cyber security that might be something we could put into our curriculum, so it would be a core I.T. But in terms of the whole curriculum, the area that we need more focus is I.T. and that is one of the reasons we brought a head teacher out to work with us on that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

But is there anywhere those skills are officially recognised? Because the world that we live in, if you do not have something on a piece of paper you cannot do something.

Chief Education Officer:

Yes, sure, they are all qualifications but...

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

But specifically the I.T. skills, yes, okay.

The Minister for Education:

It is interesting you mention that because yesterday in advance of the debate I went back to research what are the skills that people are looking for as employers, and if you look at the World Economic Forum - and I will send you the link if necessary - they give 10 skills that will be needed for 2020, the top 5 are more about the sort of soft skills that we expect, complex and logic and creativity has gone up from number 10 to number 3, I am pleased to say, and all that kind of stuff that we are really working on within our schools. I.T. is quite high.

Chief Education Officer:

We could talk about this all day.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, we are going to have to move on because we have got quite a few more questions. Just on the early years' report that is coming out, could we possibly have a briefing from whoever is working on that, whoever has authored the report?

Chief Education Officer: Cathy Hamer.

The Minister for Education: Cathy Hamer, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could you send her to us for a briefing please, so that we know...

The Minister for Education: Sure.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Thank you, and then we can move on. Shall we ask for Brexit information via email as well? Is there anything that your department is currently doing in relation to Brexit and will there be any impact on higher education; if you could send that through in an email and we will publish anything of note.

The Minister for Education:

Fine. Just a small note there that our Assistant Minister is also the Minister for External Affairs.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Yes, okay. Student finance, and I think we have got quite a few questions from the public on this subject as well.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, so following the publication of the terms of reference from the Council of Ministers subcommittee tasked with student finance - wrap your lips around that one, it is always fun - can the Minister please update the panel on the progress thus far?

The Minister for Education:

Literally, once again, it was asked last night and I was chatting to both the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Treasurer just as to where we are.

[12:30]

I think it is well known now that we took to the Minister and the Treasury Officer 9 options that we worked through ourselves. The Treasury Officer then added the tenth. That has been worked down to 4 and we are now at the point of just legitimately crunching the numbers. You guys have mentioned with the Scrutiny report that there was a slight differential what the numbers were that we reported in terms of what we saw, and what the numbers were that you provided, and we just need to get those 2 parameters exactly buttoned off so that we can focus the figures correctly for the Minister for Treasury and Resources. So that is the point we are at now.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

When these options come forward, question 12 we have got on our public sheet is: will the Minister be carrying out a survey of parents and students on any proposed changes to a loan scheme coming forward?

The Minister for Education:

I think we have always been in a position where - and you saw it the first time around - that we would be discussing these sorts of things with the public. It is paramount that the public fully appreciate and understand what we are attempting to do.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

So, for example, if the Minister for Treasury and Resources will be bringing forward changes in the budget is there going to be any official consultation to go with that?

The Minister for Education:

I could not speak for the Minister for Treasury and Resources, not before the budget...

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

But not that you are aware of?

The Minister for Education: Not that I am aware of.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : So no survey?

The Minister for Education:

Well, from the Minister for Treasury and Resource's point of view, like I say, I could not say but I do not think he will be doing that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

You would be able, as Minister for Education, to survey those who use your...

The Minister for Education:

We have most of the information that we need to have that we previously picked up with regard to this and rather like you perceived, parents are not shy in telling us what their positions are with regard to higher education.

Chief Education Officer:

All of the options have been influenced by the feedback we have had from parents until now.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

What options have the subcommittee considered not taking forward?

The Minister for Education:

I could not say that until we settle down with those 4. I think you are asking me the same question with another perspective. That will become obvious.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

When it comes to the budget, okay.

The Minister for Education: Yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask whether, in terms of student finance, the consideration has been given to the post- graduate funding as well as just the degree level?

The Minister for Education:

It has. It is part and parcel of what we have been trying to do, going back to that notion of joined-up thinking, but it is not the central core of what we have been trying to address.

The Deputy of St. John :

I am going to go on to the public's questions, because following our questions in the States that we had about post-graduate funding, question 4 from the public stated that: "Considering that there are 12 places available for a post-graduate bursary each year, why the maximum number has not been awarded for this academic year."

The Minister for Education:

I was not aware of it. Why the maximum number has not been awarded?

The Deputy of St. John :

I think it was off the back of a response you gave to one of my questions in the States with regards to an F.O.I. (freedom of information) response, that there was 21 that applied, 11 were shortlisted and 9 received the bursary.

The Minister for Education:

Oh, I see. Okay, that was on the appeal.

The Deputy of St. John :

But you stated that everyone who applied got.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, everybody that applied, but we did have one that would have been ... in fact, it would have brought the number up by one, I think. At the time we were looking at the appeal, we received it literally on the day of the appeal, after the guy had come along. He had not received a 2:1, he had received a 2:2, and ergo, therefore he did not qualify for the funding, so the numbers were depleted by one, if that is what you are referring to. So basically everybody that applied for the funding in that context got it on the appeal that we were providing, but for the full number, there was one individual, unfortunately - although he came along to the appeal - we subsequently got the information that we had not had, that he had only received a 2:2 for his degree, not a 2:1. So his course was not...

Chief Operating Officer:

So although he applied, he did not meet the criteria for a bursary.

The Deputy of St. John :

Just correct me if I am wrong - this is the public that have submitted this - it states that there are 12 places, that 21 applied, 11 were shortlisted and only 9 received a bursary, so if my maths is ...

The Minister for Education:

I do not know where that other one is then. I only saw 10, I think, on the appeal, so I do not know what the 11 is.

The Deputy of St. John : It is from F.O.I.

Chief Operating Officer:

There are normally 10 bursaries of £10,000, which comes up to the budget, but we have the flexibility to give 2 lower bursaries, which is there might well have been 12 in the previous year.

The Deputy of St. John :

So usually it is 10, but depending on budget constraints...

Chief Operating Officer:

Yes. If you have got 2 equally good people or the courses are not as expensive, you have got the flexibility to award more.

Chief Education Officer:

The key thing is the budget to get the money out there.

The Deputy of St. John :

Yes. I will just follow up the questions from the public, if that is okay. Has any research been done on why the number of applications has been declining since 2009, from 31 down to 21 for the 2017/18 academic year?

Chief Education Officer: No.

The Deputy of St. John : Simple. Will there be any?

Chief Operating Officer:

The numbers vary dramatically each year. Some years we can get 30, the next year there is 13. I do not think there is any correlation. I think it depends on where people are and what their interests are.

The Minister for Education:

It is worth saying that I have asked internally for the whole thing to be reviewed anyway, that whole topic. My role as the Minister for Education, particularly when I am sitting in an appeal, as the Chief Officer has just said, is to get as many children through that process and help them - or as many as students as possible - to get them off and get the education. I have to say, they are remarkable people that we get coming to these events, they are fantastic people, and a wide range, volcanologists, environmentalists, animators to opera singers. What was the last one that really impressed me? Oh, a composer. So it is a huge range.

Chief Education Officer:

Our default position is to fund them if we can.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I ask how then - it is another question from the public - the post-graduate bursaries are advertised? How are people aware that this is available? It is like the question I asked in the States, Minister, was: there is nothing in legislation, there is no particular policy, as such, and so how are these people made aware that this is available for them?

The Minister for Education: It is on the website.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Is the website updated? Because we have had another question from the public saying that they believe the webpage is not updated on the student finance options.

The Minister for Education:

We have got a brand new webpage which has just been created. It is in its - I cannot think what you call it - beta stage, and in that is a whole brand-new batch of information. It goes back to some of the discussions we have had about communication. I want another level of communication that people are fully aware of what they have to do. It is a good point. I think we have already told Jeremy on the point of constructing the timeline that we will give all parents that, so they will have the information.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just on the student finance webpage and information, when will that be updated? It is either now or it is imminent?

The Minister for Education:

Just over the last couple days. Yes, it is either there or nearly there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay, thank you.

Chief Education Officer:

It looks quite different to the other one.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can I just ask, out of curiosity more than anything, following that, is that under the legislation there a requirement for funding for higher education, for example, so it is quite clear in law, but for post- graduate there is not. So the States has not agreed where the post-graduate funding should be funded, so how has that decision been made? What has happened? Where was the decision made that that should be the case and for that many places? I am nervous...

The Minister for Education:

No, it is a really good question and it is the very question I asked when I walked into that situation, back when I became Assistant Minister. My previous Minister was not particularly keen on dealing in that area and it was the very same question that I asked him. I am not sure I can even remember the answer, but I just seemed to pick up the reins and began the process and carried it through. But again, it goes back to the point I was just making earlier. That is why I have asked for a review of it. I need to identify how all this will be put together, because the difficulty is, as you just picked up,

sometimes as a Minister or as an officer or even in your role as an A.M. (Assistant Member), you are picking up stuff that people are dealing with and you just carry on the process and make it as best you can. But I wanted it reviewed is the truth.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Just looking at the list of public questions, there is one about Jersey Reform Day in response to a proposition from 2012 from Deputy Pitman to teach schoolchildren about the events of 27th September 1769. Minister, what action has been taken regarding the teaching of this event?

The Minister for Education:

When we were sort of responsible for the cultural umbrella, Rod McLaughlin did quite a bit of work on it.

Chief Education Officer: It is on the curriculum.

The Minister for Education: Yes, it is on the curriculum.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : What year group?

Communications Manager:

I think it is part of Jersey studies, yes. It is with a list of other things. It is a big list of Jersey-related things.

Chief Education Officer:

It is part of the cultural part of the curriculum, so it is on there. Children are talked to about it.

The Minister for Education:

But as the Minister for Culture, I lost touch with Rod on what he was doing on that thing, but it is part and parcel of what they do as well.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Could you make available copies of any teaching materials that are used?

The Minister for Education:

It is on the curriculum. You will find it on the website.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is within the Jersey curriculum?

Chief Education Officer:

Then schools will develop their own teaching materials. They share them between themselves, but we do not.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. We have some questions about G.C.S.E. results from Deputy Mézec . I wonder, do you want to just ask maybe one or 2 or should we ask for them by email, because we have got quite a few?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

If we can get a relatively brief answer...

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, go ahead.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

... just because it is our first opportunity to ask about this since the recent G.C.S.E. results, but obviously the grading system for some has changed, so it is more a case of asking how has that gone, how has that been communicated to employers so that they sort of know what is coming up in the move from letter grades to number grades and ongoing work to make sure this is just not as confusing as I am finding it?

The Minister for Education:

First of all, I will hand out this little leaflet, quite simply so we are ahead of the game. I have to say, from our perspective, when I was there at Hautlieu on the day the A Levels and G.C.S.E.s were handed out, it has gone really well, and in fact much better than I think even the schools had predicted. This transition from the alphabetical - and remember, it is just 2 subjects at this point in time, English and maths - the prediction was from the U.K. that they thought 9, which is like an A**, will be in around the 3 per cent margin. In fact, they fell below that. In Hautlieu alone, we had between 8 and 9 per cent, which is a phenomenal result, exceptionally well. I think it is going to take some time to bed in, but as you understand, the exams, most of the exams next year will be using this as a background. The information, again it is on the website. I do not know if you want to say any more on communications.

Communications Manager:

No, we have been trailing it for quite a long time on our Facebook page. It is one of the things that gets a huge number of hits. I think we started doing it last year and then we realised that we needed something bespoke for employers, so something simple and straightforward, which is where the idea for this came from.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So this is just a Jersey thing? That is very good.

Communications Manager: Yes, our department is doing it.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : That is very clear.

Chief Education Officer:

All the schools have little video clips as well.

Communications Manager:

There are lots of different ways that different schools have communicated it to their parents and some have been quite inventive.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Yes, I like the little example.

Communications Manager:

So what we are going to do with this, we have already started rolling it out. It has been on our social media, but it is going to go out through careers, teachers, through Trackers, because they have those direct links with employers, and also through Careers Jersey.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Shall we do supplementaries? Perhaps, Andy, you could email the rest of the questions.

The Minister for Education:

If I could take an opportunity with the members of the public to say, because it got lost in the sort of noise about G.C.S.E. and A Levels, that the International Baccalaureate that Hautlieu promote was 100 per cent success rate, so I just wanted to make sure people knew about that. Of course Highlands had a fantastic result. We have got the information here, if we can just pass it to you in relation to results and things.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, thank you. We will take that, thank you.

Chief Education Officer:

It is an opportunity to put right the nonsense in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post), so just for the record really, as you know, our target was to get ahead of England's results, which we did last summer, and the results are improving again. Again, despite what the J.E.P. said, the results are up and we are ahead of England on our G.C.S.E. results and we intend to stay there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

If we could have all the data to back that up by email that we will then publish.

Communications Manager:

It is still provisional at this stage.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Let us know what we can publish or not.

Communications Manager:

Everything is in the public domain. We did a major report, a full analysis of the results and we have done that for the last 2 or 3 years now. That comes in the New Year, in line with what they do in the U.K. This thing that we have given you here today is provisional. It is a first look at results and obviously it adjusts according to re-sits. Not grade boundaries, but re-sits.

Chief Education Officer:

They go up, of course, because you only ask for a re-mark if you think you are going to come out better.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay. We are going to move on now, thank you. I have some questions about early years, which I think we touched on previously, so I will skip through to the funding changes to the N.E.F. (Nursery Education Funding). Is anything going to be coming forward, any changes to the funding...

The Minister for Education: As far as I am aware, no.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So no decrease or increase?

The Minister for Education: Nothing.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So currently the rate is £5.15 per hour. Is that correct?

The Minister for Education: I think that is it.

Chief Education Officer: Yes, that is right.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I know that some of the nursery providers have suggested that even just for them to break even, they will need an increase and that currently they are making a loss. Have you had any discussions with the nursery providers and have you taken on board the fact that the rate, as it is, is not making...

The Minister for Education:

I think this will be part of the early years report that we are getting, so the people that Cathy Hamer has spoken to, because I have been at several of the events where private nurseries were included in all of that and that kind of information has been fed through, so once we get a clear picture of what is on the Island.

Chief Education Officer:

We have explained to private providers that budget is currently overspending very significantly, so it is an issue for us.

[12:45]

The Deputy of St. John :

Are you waiting for the early years report from Cathy to decide on what you are going to do with regards to N.E.F. going forward?

The Minister for Education:

We want it to articulate some of the thoughts that we have. We have already had discussions with the department ourselves, but we want to make sure, we want to consolidate those discussions with the report as the background, so we fully understand. We do not want to say: "This is what we are doing" and then find out the report has suggested something else.

The Deputy of St. John :

Because we have still got that issue hanging over our heads.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, and from my perspective, to give you a little bit of what I have been talking about, it is trying to make sure that the parents are in control of this, so whatever we do it is something ... as an example

- again, this is not cast in stone, this is just one of the ideas we have - is giving parents vouchers rather than dictating, that the nurseries say what they are doing, so possibly giving vouchers for the equivalent amount so they can choose how they spend those or where they spend and what they do. These are just ideas that have gone into the pot.

Chief Education Officer:

Basically what we have done, we want the report, which is a root and branch review, and it had a lot of people involved. We just want to read that before we start putting lines in the sand.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So the report is due in a month?

Chief Education Officer: It is due in October, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

It is due in October. What is your timescale for your actions that you are going to be taking following that report? When will you be making decisions about...

The Minister for Education:

Like I say, we have already been having discussions behind the scenes with regard to what we are doing, because we think again, like you have raised this in the past, what we would want to do is get that information to parents as quickly as possible, because we know it affects their decisions. As soon as we have got that report, we are already ready to start talking about those things. I would think another month from that point.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, so parents should know in 2 months' time...

The Minister for Education: In November, yes.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

What type of available childcare they will have. Any plans to increase the 20 hours per week?

The Minister for Education: Not at this point.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Okay. Over to you, thank you.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Just questions about the Care Inquiry report and the impact that that will have had on your department. In the aftermath of the report being published, have you identified what your key priorities are as a result of that and have you identified what you think needs addressing within the department?

The Minister for Education:

Yes. To some degree, I think we touch a little bit on each of the recommendations, but there is one sort of significant part. The impact on Education is not as significant as for other departments. However, saying that, we have always played a full part and we are all part of the group that is related to the Care Inquiry recommendations and we are committed to working with our colleagues across the States in this area. We have quite a list of stuff that we have previously done. We have been doing work in this area for absolutely years and it is worth noting the success of Cliff Chipperfield and his team. They have been brilliant in accommodating what has been recommended in the report and that means that we have been able to pick it up far quicker I guess than anybody else. For us, the immediate changes are the introduction of the new team of family support workers, the introduction of a new parenting programme across all schools, the Young People's Voice project and the creation of the Youth Parliament, which the Jersey Youth Service is putting together, and most importantly, I think more than anything else, additional resources to expand the YES (Youth Enquiry Service) counselling service to meet demand, particularly of the L.G.B.T.Q.A. (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Questioning and Ally). Just to flesh out - I do not know if you want more detail here, but we have got quite a bit of detail to go through - in secondary schools, we have got school counsellors now and behaviour support teachers. In primary, we have got wellbeing teams and educational officers, welfare officers, and we have what we call a designated L.A.C. (Looked After Children) teacher for the child's future needs at the school and what we call a virtual head teacher, which I will ask my Chief Officer to explain in a second, which is the role of the virtual teacher is to collate all the information and analyse the data, effectively. I have talked about the family support workers. We have 6 of those. Responsibility for a lot of this falls down into the chief counsellor, and like I have already said, it is with Cliff Chipperfield and Mark Capern. We have been responsible for helping create M.A.S.H. (Multi-Agency Safeguarding Hub). We have been a lead agency in creating M.A.S.H. in the first place. We are part of a multi-agency response. We have got early help managers helping over 100 families at the moment and we have just been talking to schools about child sexual exploitation and sexual abuse, so we have teams going in relating to those sort of things and 100 teachers are being trained in that particular area as we speak. Every school has one representation. Again, rather like we talked about earlier, we have the Royal Theatre doing this commissioned play, which we have found is probably the most effective route to helping children fully understand what it is about and we talk to them on their terms. I think we have 2 primary mental health workers and an E.L.S.A. (Emotional Literacy Support Assistant) in every school. Then we also have ... it is something I only came across in terms of an acronym the other day, an E.O.T.A.S. (Education Other Than at School), which is that we have 40 children educated at home, so we have somebody going out to make sure they are doing it. All of this that is happening now is backed up by the things I have said within the Assembly. There are teachers who are highly professional and are quite quick at picking up all the subtle nuances that dictate those concerns for children in particular.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is it possible to maybe track back at what point these things were introduced? Because I know a few of them have been introduced since I have been in the States.

The Minister for Education: Yes, I think we can do that.

The Deputy of St. John :

But just to have an idea in terms of the timescale and maybe understanding what the impact is, if you are aware of any particular impact in the areas, that would be really useful if we could get that.

The Minister for Education: Yes, that is fine.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

You mentioned about the Children's Voice in all of this and that was obviously something that the Care Inquiry commented on. Have you looked at the complaints procedures that exist for young people, the complaints procedures that young people would access when they are not happy about something or want to raise an issue, to make sure that they are easy to access, that young people have faith in them and that they are fit for purpose?

The Minister for Education:

Is this in relation to schools? Can you give me the context?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

I think it is more anything, really. Yes, so within the department that you will have various different enterprises and as well as that, young people will need some trusted place they can go to if they are concerned about their own wellbeing or for someone else, something that they can trust.

The Minister for Education:

Yes. It is called the YES project, which is why we focus our attention on that and why it has been so successful and why we have increased the funding for that area. That is one of the first potential places. That is the place where people ... it used to exist up the road, did it not? That is the place that people began to access and very quickly the word about that spread out. That is the place in terms of where most children would go with any concerns.

Chief Education Officer:

It might be worth mentioning the survey we recently did with a lot of children. I forget the actual numbers. It is run by one of Ed psyches (psychologists). It focuses on bullying, but it asks them that very question: "Where would you go? Who would you talk to?" and it is fascinating. The range of responses was on the one hand reassuring, because they mentioned a range of people, including peers, but at the same time a little worrying, in the sense of that lack of consistency. I think it is an issue for us, because I think what children are saying is all of them were able to say who they would go to and they are very sensible choices. It may be that is healthy, but there is a wide spread. But I would like to have seen some more consistency about that, so we are doing a little bit more work on that through Graham Ramsden. So we are looking at it. The other thing we have done recently is have an audit of how we listen to children and how they influence our schools. We can provide that to you, if you like. That was very reassuring. Again, it varies from school to school, but there is an awful lot going on.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : When did you do this audit?

Chief Education Officer:

That was done in the summer term, so it is quite fresh. The survey was done last Easter, so they are quite recent. In fact, probably if you wanted to be briefed on the audit, we could do that and there are some really quite ... things I did not know that were going on, which was great. It is nice to know there is good practice I was unaware of.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Are you able to send a briefing note through to our officers?

Chief Education Officer:

What we have is a set of slides on the audit that we briefed heads on in the summer term. We can send you those slides and then if there is anything of particular interest, we can forward that.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That would be helpful, thank you.

Chief Education Officer:

It is the new Principal Ed Psych. The slides are pretty clear, you are given the picture.

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

Just a brief one. I will do these ones, just very briefly asking. Do you anticipate any legislative changes that you will be wanting to initiate before May next year as a result of the Care Inquiry recommendations?

The Minister for Education:

Just in general, related to what we are doing as a department?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec :

For you as a department, yes.

The Minister for Education: Not at this moment in time.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

We were going to ask about P.S.H.E. We might have some to send you by email, but we will just ask one.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The P.S.H.E. curriculum, as we know, was updated earlier this year. We are just asking at this time, what feedback, if any, has the department had as a result of these changes?

The Minister for Education:

People like it. I think you understand, and we have said it before, but I will repeat it. It is an important strand of what we teach within our curriculum. It is compulsory, compared to the U.K. It is that part that gives some sort of flexibility to the curriculum, where teachers can look at something to substantiate. You in particular have always been keen on the political side of things, but it also has to do with the social side of things, the citizen engagement. I think what we have seen, the first point is that we are conscious that teaching can be highly rewarding, but it also can be challenging. We are mindful of that, so this is what we want to build in there, is an opportunity for discourse and animation and articulation with all of those kind of areas.

Chief Education Officer:

We talked earlier about the Youth Service capsule lesson, which has been really successful. Okay, it has been the one school, but it is really good. We have not talked about this yet, but what we are almost certainly going to do is look at the P.H.S.E. programme and take that approach again to other subjects, so we get young people with much control over and influence over what it is they experience and are taught. So we will keep the curriculum as it is, but talk to young people how best to present to them and how to discuss, because the experience we have had with the Youth Service has been very, very positive. I think that there are other parts of that curriculum, particularly around sexual health, for example, and relationships which I think young people could help us shape and make more interesting and relevant for them.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

I think we will follow up on P.H.S.E. It is an area of interest we have.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, the curriculum I have got here - but the curriculum is on the web - and in fact there is a little bit here that I forgot to hand out earlier which relates to the work done with the Youth Service, which this is constructed by the children themselves in relation to politics, so it is very impactful, I have to say.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Before we finish, I want to squeeze in one more question from a member of the public to the Minister. Minister, do you agree it is not ideal that schools are offering things like bacon rolls, crisps, chocolates, carbonated drinks, et cetera, at lunch time, given that these foods have a detrimental effect on health and on the students' ability to concentrate and absorb information? Is it feasible or is it possible that one good quality healthy meal could be available to all students at lunchtime with a table at which to eat? Is that something that you could work towards?

The Minister for Education:

First of all, historically, I was chair of the governors for Haut Vallée and struck out and said I was not happy with the situation that we had there with regard to the kind of foods that were being presented. What was more apparent and what was more important to us though was to make sure that the children did get fed with something rather than nothing at all. That was a greater concern than to do with the nutrition, so very much to do with P.H.S.E. We talk about nutrition and the values and that sort of thing. We cannot dictate to schools in particular, although there is a policy to talk about nutrition and stuff, that they should be.

Chief Education Officer:

I am surprised that question came up, because we have adopted the nutritional standards and it is applied to all schools rigorously. I would be surprised if that kind of food was available.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Minister, you have just said you cannot dictate to the schools.

The Minister for Education:

No, no, we have got this nutritional standard which we talk about, but some schools ... and I go back to what I was saying earlier. We want to make sure that children ... because children come from various backgrounds and although my personal view is they should have the healthiest meal possible, there should not be soft drinks and there should not be sweets and there should not be calorific things that are going into these things, but the important thing is to make sure that children identify something that they can eat. A child who has got a full belly is really going to learn something. So we have this nutritional standard, but like the Chief Officer, I was surprised when you just said that, because I was just mentally trying to work out the schools that I have been in.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : Is it compulsory?

Chief Education Officer: Yes.

Communications Manager:

It is the U.K. School Food Standards document. All the canteens that we run in all our schools, they have to follow that. Schools themselves generally develop their own healthy eating policies and they are all pretty standard in terms of no fizzy drinks, no chocolates and things like that. The schools do an awful lot about healthy eating. It is a very important issue.

The Minister for Education:

There are things like if you go to Highlands College, for example, and the Academy Restaurant, where it is for older children, I utilise that facility myself occasionally, to have a bacon sandwich sometimes at the start of the day. So some of those things are in there, but I was just surprised when you said that.

Communications Manager:

Obviously we have no input over the food in private schools, so it would be interesting to have that information if you have got details, it would be interesting to have.

Chief Education Officer:

I eat in secondary schools a lot. I love the idea of a bacon sandwich, but it is normally pasta and salad.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

So the nutritional standards...

The Minister for Education: We can send that to you.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet : ... are they on the website?

Communications Manager: They are national.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

National, so that is available. Okay.

The Minister for Education:

That is a good point. I do not know why we do not put it on the website.

[13:00]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I was going to ask then how is this information disseminated widely to the public and parents to know that?

Chief Education Officer:

All the head teachers will know it. Every school would know that.

Communications Manager:

Yes, there is quite often stuff in school newsletters about: "Do not forget this healthy eating policy" and things like that.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I have certainly seen that at Plat Douet School in St. Luke's, that is for sure.

Communications Manager: Yes, they are really strong there.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

Okay, I think that is everything. Thank you very much for your answers, everybody. There are several questions, some our own and some from the public that we have not managed to get through today. I think our officer is already noting that he will be following up on those. Minister, could you commit to answering any extra questions via email? We will be publishing those. Is that something you can commit to do? Also, I just wanted to thank again the public and the media who are attending and to thank more generally those who submitted questions. This was an initiative that we specifically put a post on our Facebook page, on Twitter, requesting that people send us questions in, but the option is always, always there for the public to talk to Scrutiny. I think there is a web form on the Scrutiny website. I think it is under the tab: "Get involved", is that correct? Any time a member of the public can click on that and they can fill in any feedback to us, issues that you would like us to look into as a potential review, questions you would like to ask, anything like that. You can also phone the Scrutiny office and pass on information in confidence. We always need to know who is giving us the information, so there always needs to be a name attached, but we can take information and keep your name confidential. I hope that this is the start of increased engagement with Scrutiny and thank you again to everybody who submitted questions. Thank you, Minister, and everybody here.

The Minister for Education:

I meant to hand these out at some point. This is the new prospectus for Highlands College and you might like to look at it. It does give some detailed information.

Deputy L.M.C. Doublet :

That brings the hearing to a close. Thank you.

[13:02]