Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Education - 21 June 2019

Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Education

Friday, 21st June 2019

Panel:

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy T. Pointon of St. John

Witnesses:

Senator T.A. Vallois, The Minister for Education.

Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour , Assistant Minister for Education Mr. S. O'Regan, Group Director, Education

Ms. S. Famili, Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills

[10:02]

Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier : (Chairman):

Thank you very much, welcome to the quarterly hearing of the Minister for Education. I point you to the information with regards public hearings, which I am sure you are very aware of, which is in front of you and ask that everybody switch off their mobile phones or put them on silent at least. There is no recording of anything at all. But it is publicly broadcast and it is downloadable so there is a record there, and there will be a transcript later on. I will just start off by us introducing ourselves briefly. Deputy Rob Ward , and I chair the Education and Home Affairs Panel.

Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :

I am the Deputy of St. John , Trevor Pointon, and I am a member of the panel.

Assistant Minister for Education:

Good morning everyone. Deputy Jeremy Maçon, Assistant Minister for Education.

The Minister for Education:

Senator Tracey Vallois, Minister for Education.

Group Director, Education:

Good morning. Seán O'Regan, Group Director of Education.

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Good morning. Saboohi Famili, Director in C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) with the remit for skills.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Our Scrutiny Officers are here as well, welcome to you. We start off, just a general question. Minister, are you planning on bringing forward any legislative changes in 2019 before the end of this year?

The Minister for Education: No.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

None at all? Okay. Good clear answer to start with.

The Deputy of St. John :

At this rate we will be finished in

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Twenty minutes. May 2019 is the last opportunity for staff to hand in their notice in advance of a new academic year. Can the Minister confirm how many staff within the 11 to 16 schools, and primaries as well we could ask about, if you have that information, of handing in their notice in advance of September 2019?

The Minister for Education:

If you do not mind, it is probably better to ask the Director of Education whether we have those complete details yet.

Group Director, Education:

As Deputy Ward will be aware, it is a very fluid situation. We have those numbers; as of 31st May there were 83 current staff in primary schools with a 31st August finish date. So are leaving. Obviously most of those are recruited to, we are told, and in the 11 to 16 schools

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Perhaps I should have said, secondary, then there is the tertiary as well.

Group Director, Education:

I think not tertiary but the secondary figure was 71. As I say, our H.R. (human resources) colleagues are best to answer the question in those terms. So those will be people who predominantly have resigned but those who will be retiring. So that is the quantum, if you like, of recruitment work going on in our mainstream primary and secondary schools.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How optimistic are you that they will all be recruited to suitably, so to speak, i.e. if you have a vacancy for a maths teacher you will get a maths specialist, et cetera? What is the market looking like, simply?

Group Director, Education:

In primary education we have had to give one licence to recruit off-Island because there were concerns about not being able to recruit. The issuing of licences to broaden the appeal is obviously much more prevalent and has been for decades, as we have shared in previous Scrutiny hearings, I believe. In the secondary sector, especially for specialist subjects or those deemed shortage, so we have had a number of advertisements out seeking to recruit the nature of the 31st May resignation date for teachers, as with 31st October and the last day of February, is that the lead-in time for recruitment may be that we do not have the permanent replacement ready until January 2020, for the obvious reason that if a teacher resigns as late as 31st May the teacher colleague who might replace them, whether they are on Island or recruited off Island, has to give in their own resignation and we have the same profile of dates throughout the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom as well as ourselves. So it is in 2 parts. The confidence that we will recruit is high from the feedback we are getting, so it will be different school by school. But what will be key is the interim arrangements, having supply cover or other arrangements for the autumn term where there has been a late resignation.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I understand what you mean. So we could have a situation where vacancies are not filled by specialists for a term, particularly in shorter subjects. I would imagine they are maths, science

Technically, you are absolutely right. There could be a non-specialist teaching and nursery class while the head teacher within H.R. is seeking to recruit a suitably qualified early years specialist. There is an issue of course about how one defines specialists. There is quite a live debate about the best person to stand and teach a mathematics class in secondary years; it is somebody with a maths degree or an autumn teacher who is more of a generalist but is great at teaching and has subject knowledge. Many and most of secondary school teachers have a second subject, apart from their degree specialism. But you are absolutely right. In the interim, we could have non- specialist roles while we await the substantive appointment to that particular vacancy.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I would ask that you keep the panel informed with regards that because that is obviously something that we would be concerned at, and I want to try and support you in any way we can in terms of what we are going to do with regards recruitment and so on.

The Minister for Education:

I think it is also important to recognise the statement the Chief Minister made recently about key workers' accommodation. I think when you are talking about specialist subjects, I think that is particularly important in recognising the need to ensure that we have the right people in front of the classroom for those children. So in recognising that key worker accommodation, the work that Senator Mézec 's doing around the housing piece, is extremely important to all of this.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Do you think that will help? Do you think that is a positive step forward then?

The Minister for Education:

What I worry about is similar to what you have seen in terms of your mental health and your nursing and all those types of things that it is right across Europe and globally. There is a crisis in some of these areas and there is a reluctance to go into some of these roles for various different reasons. I think that is my biggest worry, but we need to be on top of it, which I think we are getting there. But also be a good employer and recognise that Jersey is a really good place to be and to teach children as well. There are qualities that we have compared to other places, I believe, which would make a better package for those, particularly specialist, teachers to come in. But I think the key worker accommodation will assist in that.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It leads us on to a question with regards this is a judgment request but that is what we are here for anyway, is about morale in the education sector at the moment. It has been a difficult time. How

do you see morale? This is an open question to the panel. How do you, Minister, see morale in the education sector at the moment? Do you think there has been damage to it?

The Minister for Education:

I can only say from the schools that I have been into and the people I have spoken to during the last year, the whole pay situation I do not think has helped. There is a feeling of being under-valued by teachers. It is not necessarily just by the Government, I think there is a feeling the Island, as a whole, does not necessarily value or see the strength that they hold in terms of our economy, which I think is also dangerous. I think it is starting to improve in some areas. But overall there is just this kind of low morale right across the States, not just in education. I think because we are going through a really difficult period of some quite expedited changes that the States of Jersey has not seen before, and I think that creates that sense of uncertainty and concern. I think it is kind of spread across. Jersey being a small place, everybody speaks to each other. There is that high risk that a teacher may have a partner within another department of the States. It creates that lower morale until they finally know exactly what the end product looks like. I think it is across the States. I do not know whether Seán might be better versed in terms of giving you a clearer idea of what morale is like in the schools.

Group Director, Education:

I think we face challenges. The recent industrial action, it is clear teachers do not take such action lightly and therefore of itself the level of activity in the industrial relations space is symptomatic. I have to say the professionalism of teachers and how they present; schools broadly are happy, successful places. Last night I had the pleasure of sitting and listening to 700 Jersey school children with all of their teachers singing

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I was there on Wednesday, it is fantastic.

Group Director, Education:

We had Jersey sunshine as well as I know you suffered a cold evening but that says something about the feel. I am fortunate enough to go to lots of school events and into schools. With the Ministers, we have been visiting a range of schools and building into every visit an open session at lunchtimes or straight after school as the children depart, for feedback to the Minister and Assistant Minister. The challenge is there around a range of issues, supporting mental health in schools, special educationalist provision, but what we have not heard is low morale as such where teachers have got they have been very frank and open I think.

The Minister for Education:

Absolutely, they have.

Group Director, Education:

But it is not saying: "Woe is me, my lot is awful." They are saying: "We need more resource to better help children."

The Minister for Education:

I think they have been like that because they are so passionate about what they are doing and they do not want to see any child lose out or not be supported in the right way. That is a very clear message that comes across to me when I go to the schools and speak directly to the teachers. I made it clear when I wanted to go around to the schools that I did not want to just go in and it all looks nice. I wanted to hear directly from the teachers about the way things are within their own school dynamics and what was happening and where the Education Department and the Government as a whole can probably be more supportive. So there are a range of issues that have kind of come to a head and it is difficult for everyone.

Assistant Minister for Education:

I think the best evidence that we have got to produce so far is the teacher survey and from that there are frustrations around things like the amount of time of marking and things like that, which does affect morale. But overall the feedback is still that Jersey is a fairly good place to work and teachers like to work in Jersey.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You are happy that staff would be open to tell you about the concerns that they have when you visit schools, that they would not hide or feel that they could not say to you?

Assistant Minister for Education:

We have done 3 things. First of all, we have seen a lot of them face to face. We have also sent round an email to all members of the teaching staff to say: "If you want to talk to us please do." We have had some responses from teachers from that. Again, we also make the option, we give them our cards if we are there: "If you want to speak to us privately, please feel free to contact us."

[10:15]

So we do try to give teachers those avenues though; if they do have any concerns they can contact us.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

One of the things was about bullying and harassment policy for States workers. What has been done to implement that policy you are bringing into schools? There is anecdotal information that that is one of the concerns some staff have with regards to their school.

The Minister for Education:

This is one of the pieces of work that I was working on when I was chair of S.E.B. (States Employment Board) because I felt passionately about ensuring that we try to crack down. You are never going to get rid of it all. But we need to try and crack down on it. So the bullying and harassment, what I wanted to make sure when I was there was that it was not just another policy that was sent out and expected to be read and then it just gets put on a shelf and forgotten about. So I went back and asked specifically today to identify exactly what has happened. So if it is all right, I will just reel off some of the things that have happened.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes, that would be good.

The Minister for Education:

They launched it with some implementation measures to help communicate roles and responsibilities with regards to the policy and to shift the culture that was required to make the difference. One of those measures was mandatory line manager briefing, so face-to-face sessions, to reach out to 900 managers with direct reports. This is across the whole of the States. Fifteen sessions have already been held with 2 left; one next week and one in July. Approximately 650 line managers have attended so far. These sessions included attendance by head teachers and other line managers, staff within the Education Department. The briefing sessions have been well received. Line managers were tasked at the end of the briefing session with ensuring this was a topic for discussion at their next team meetings. Given resources to help and will be reminded in the next monthly managers' round-up email sent out by Internal Communications. There is also the Team Jersey element. They have deliberately begun their leadership development programme, which is creating a positive culture and crucial conversations to support the launch of bullying and harassment policy. So there are other implementation measures which are not directly face to face training side of things; so there are poster campaigns, there are screen savers, there are intranet articles, and all those types of things.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

It seems to very much about managers at the moment. What about the staff on the front line? I mean the classroom might feel that they are being harassed or bullied either by management or perhaps in other areas? Do you think they are aware that there is a new policy that they can feed into?

The Minister for Education:

I would hope so. I will hand over to Seán to kind of feed back on that particularly. But just one thing I would say before I do that is of course the reason why you have such a management structure or a head teacher in a school, or a department, who would try to help to support them in whichever way that they feel necessary is so that we ensure that these briefings are taken not just to managers, but the managers then take the responsibility to ensure that that is shared among all the staff within their school or in the department and ensure that it is constantly discussed and there is an open free conversation. But I get there may be some people that may not be aware of it for various reasons but Seán may be able to give a clearer answer.

Group Director, Education:

Happy to do that. It is a cascade model. Senior leaders in various government departments were invited to give status credibility important to this. I was invited to open one of the briefings for what are called managers but direct report, so my one had lots of head teachers, deputy head teachers, in the room. We are making sure that everybody has attended the briefing. There are not many things that are sent out mandatory but in this area of bullying, as you would expect, in safeguarding and some health and safety there are things where every single person who is managing people, and that is why there are sessions now, to make sure that every single it is called a manager, in our space head teacher, has attended and therefore disseminated the sharing. We are doing a check that every single head teacher has attended in the secondary and primary heads meetings that follow next month. You are seeing in schools the posters that say: "There is the 24-hour speak- up line if you feel you are the victim of bullying and harassment. If you want to make a whistle- blowing, here is the number that you can do that directly" and it is then picked up centrally and actioned.

The Deputy of St. John :

As a matter of interest, how many reports of bullying do you get?

Group Director, Education:

That is mediated centrally. In the specific school system, the traditional route if somebody brings a grievance or issues a complaint that is dealt with by H.R., those numbers are low. But I would not be able to speak for the central People Services, as was H.R.

The Deputy of St. John :

Surely if a manager is bullying and he is not really conscious of his/her behaviour, there needs to be some sort of regular feedback, does there not, in order to inform a change in behaviour?

If there has been a complaint of bullying that has been raised with the manager, it is often a little stronger than feedback, but absolutely let us use that term about repeated behaviours. I think part of the bullying and harassment policy route is where it is unreported to make it as easy as possible for members of our staff team so to do.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

One of the issues that came from the report was the fact that there was not an ease of reporting and there was not a culture whereby people felt they could because, by the very nature of bullying and harassment, people felt very threatened in their workplace. Do you think that this process has addressed that? I take on board all the stuff about training managers and awareness and, yes, of course you have to start and if you take this cascade model. But I still cannot see where the life of the average classroom teacher who feels if they have an issue that it is not being dealt with while they are being bullied or harassed in any way by a management structure, which sometimes can be quite large in schools, how they can feel protected by that. I think back to the next stage that has to happen is when will that happen or is it happening? It is such an important point when we talk about morale because I think that is one of the morale issues. If people do not feel happy

The Minister for Education:

I absolutely get that. In my almost 11 years now being in the States the amount of bullying and harassment cases I have dealt with, some being schools, some being other departments. One thing that I have found is understanding the difference between a bullying and harassment case, an issue with a particular work place, an issue with just the culture or whether it is certain other policies that are stopping certain things. Nine times out of 10, the cases that I have had have been some form of bullying and harassment. The H.R. Lounge report is a really important document for people to keep reminding themselves about because that came out of live cases in the States. We need not just to write reports and put them out there, expect everyone to read them and then just hope the situation goes away. That is not the way it should work. One of the issues that it did identify, one thing that I tried bringing years ago, was the ability to call anonymously. Having that confidence to take that first step to speak to somebody because sometimes you are not sure whether it is that bullying and harassment or whether it is something else. Sometimes you are taking that first step to talk to somebody that is not within the area of where you are working or where there will not be a fear of repercussions is better for someone and sometimes it has to be anonymous. There has been a difficulty in trying to get that point across about that anonymity piece because in a small island where everybody knows everyone, that fear is heightened. So one of the things that they have brought through is the speak-up line but there is a smart app as well, which people can download on their own devices or their phones and they can use that to report things. I think that is a huge step in the right direction because that gives people the opportunity to kind of come forward and

say: "I am not quite sure" or: "There is this situation happening" and getting some kind of feedback which is the right route to go down sometimes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Of the 154 staff who are moving on this summer, will there be exit interviews and will you use information from those exit interviews to feed into the process that will perhaps need to happen? It is a lot of exit interviews.

Group Director, Education:

Absolutely. An exit interview is offered to every member of staff leaving. They are not compulsory. If a member of staff is moving from Jersey school A to Jersey school B for promotion, the exit is a well-earned end of term

Deputy R.J. Ward :

How is that offer made? Just out of interest, how is that offer made? Are staff written to, to offer the exit interview or is it assumed that they know or is it sent to them by their manager?

Group Director, Education:

It is through the head teacher of the school they are departing?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Who would formally sit down and offer an interview?

Group Director, Education:

That is the practice we expect. Some people request it themselves. But the offer is made. Some people, the people I think you will rightly be focused on, are leaving because they are unhappy, they are the people we want to capture the information from. Many people are leaving because it is time for a change or promotion or new opportunity.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

They must be difficult conversations, I know that, but I think they are essential, are they not?

Group Director, Education:

Absolutely. Just to say the offer is categorically made that you do not have to have the exit interview with your line manager all the way up to the head teacher, if you are in a larger school. That somebody from People Services or a senior officer in the department will do that and we do. I have personally conducted exit interviews of people leaving who are unhappy, as have colleagues with the H.R. function.

I am just going to change the order slightly now. One of the issues I would ask you about is the procedures in place to deal with physical assaults and verbal assaults on staff. Now I absolutely understand that children are in difficult situations at times but when we have a recruitment situation, which is challenging, and we want to make Jersey the best place to work, and we have a very selective system, it would be fair to say that many of the changes are focused, for example, in our 4 11 to 16 schools, particularly the concentration of those with educational needs. What is the process? How do you deal with those incidents of verbal and physical assaults for staff? I want to talk about children and bullying afterwards because that is vitally important but because we are talking about H.R. stuff now.

The Minister for Education:

If I talk from my more policy strategy point of view and then hand over to Seán to talk about more the operational dealing with those particular situations. My point of view is I am not quite sure whether we have the right resources and support in schools to meet our principal and ideals of inclusion in mainstream schools. I think that is one of our biggest challenges that we have to meet. What will help us to distinguish some of this is of course we are listening to some of the schools. I have spoken to a secondary school quite a few times about some of the concerns and the issues that they have; 11 to 16 school. I think one of the things that will help is the school funding review, so identifying the right resources and the right support that are put in place. We have an inclusion strategy and we have S.E.N. (Special Educational Needs) but, as you would know, Deputy Ward , that unless you have the resources or the right people sitting behind it, it will not necessarily produce the outcomes that you need. Sometimes that can cause people to go off the rails. Not necessarily their own fault, it is just the way that they deal with the situation and that ends up either lashing out at a teacher. It is a really unfortunate position and it is not the position that ideally any of us would like to be in. It is a huge challenge. I am not suggesting we can do this overnight. The school funding review will assist us, I believe, in ensuring that we have got the right resources to support the schools. Now there will be a bigger discussion around how we handle inclusion.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I accept that, I think that is very true. When we talk about inclusion I would suggest that we need to look at what we mean by inclusion because it is not all schools that are inclusive in that way and that is one of the issues. But given that, when something happens - let us talk practically now - perhaps if I give you a scenario, when you risk assess you should have scenarios in mind, a teacher who is pregnant has a chair thrown at them, what does the Education Department do to support that teacher?

The work of the department with our schools should seek at all times to avert that happening in the first place, so post-incident

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I absolutely understand that, but if it does happen or a member of staff barricades themself in while a child is throwing things around, for example, what does the Education Department do to support those staff at that time? I understand that the situation should not have arisen but there are reasons why it does.

[10:30]

When it does and things break down what is the support for staff because we are talking about well- being now, are we not, of staff and mental well-being? Those incidents can have serious effects on people's careers. What would you want schools to be doing? What would your drive be as the - I don't know what you call it now - chief officer? I have lost track of what everyone is called.

Group Director, Education:

Group director is the terminology, Deputy Ward . It is a really serious point. The Education Department, as was, Children, Young People, Education and Skills, we are not there in the corridors at the time. There are instances not dissimilar to those you describe, maybe even the same real cases where I am personally going down with Julian Radcliffe who leads the inclusion team with the head teacher to meet with staff where over all those level of instances, of that level of aggression, violence, are rare but if it happens to you that is a huge thing. So the risk assessment around needs, we have members of staff expecting children in their schools, we have some teachers with medical conditions, diseases, immune depressants, where you discreetly look after their needs. If chicken pox is at the school with somebody with a low immune load, the head teacher moves them out and it does not impact their poor attendance. They work offsite. This is dealt with at the school level. If the individual who was hurling furniture, for example, is a known risk we would investigate the case to see why were better safeguards not put in place to prevent the incident? It may happen that a young person who has never displayed those tendencies does it for the first time. Hindsight is a powerful thing so when we investigate the work on the ground is led by the head teacher of the school, the department head, to both prevent and react in the moment. So in the immediate moment, if you are saying somebody has secured themselves in a classroom because there is violence then the response is, if appropriate, and it is rarely used but important that we are trained in, physical restraint might be required. It may need escalation to a call to the police. At points in between, parental intervention. So the school needs to react in the moment. When things are cool and calm we review with the school what happened. For example, if exclusions follow, if the young

person might be then somebody entered the criminal justice system, how we perform. Because we are looking for solutions. Our schools are fundamentally committed. When you ask about inclusion to a positive behaviour policy where we absolutely want to focus on good behaviour and the positives because some young people and some very young children may display very aggressive behaviour as an acting out of their own individual needs.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I absolutely understand.

Group Director, Education:

The real challenge is how we, as an inclusive system, it does not mean each school is inclusive in the same way. I think you alluded to that. There is a continuum of need where children are in mainstream schools, they may get support in mainstream school, they may need an additional resource centre, they might need special school provision, they might need some form of alternative provision which our team are working on improving further for who school is a difficult place. So you are right, we need to be responsive. But the action is in the moment. The follow-up care is for us and if somebody needs occupational health support or well-being support because they have been traumatised by an event, that is what we do through our colleagues at People Services and the head teacher.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Given that there is a real recognition that there is not the funding there to really deal with inclusion properly are we not simply putting staff at risk because of that lack of provision? To some extent we are accepting that these things are going to happen and staff have just got to suck it up, so to speak. That is not really a suitable position for us to be in.

Group Director, Education:

That is not, I do not think, a department or ministerial position at all.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

No, it may not be the position but it may be what is reality on the chalk face, but it has been a long time since we used chalk, on the whiteboard face. I do not know if that is a phrase.

Group Director, Education: Interactive whiteboard.

Deputy R.J. Ward : But the reality.

Group Director, Education:

I think the serious problem about the reality is that we need to know how serious the matter is.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That is a really important point, that is a very good point. Are all the incidents recorded?

Group Director, Education:

Yes. I would like to come on to that, if I might. Three years ago we introduced a new management information system. Jersey had quite an old one, Seamless, that had been in place I am told for several decades. There is no such thing as an industry standard because there are different I.T. (information technology) systems. But the predominant one in schools in the British system, S.I.M.S. (School Information Management System), was introduced in Jersey and there is functionality in that very importantly to record verbal abuse of staff, physical assault on staff. The insight team who process all the data have done a forensic search of it. I can tell you categorically our schools reported 14 recorded assaults on a teacher this year on 122 records of verbal abuse. However, schools have recorded those in very different ways. So we are formalising that so we are very clear on the data. Unless you can see trend analysis and drill down in a granular way to the individual school or part of a school, if it is a phase or even a department, to see where the issues are that we can better focus resources are scarce and we have experts who can help there.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You are certain that data is accurate? Because there would be pressure on a head teacher, would there not, if there are a lot of assaults? We saw the headlines in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) about the number of exclusions and picking out individual schools, which does not help the situation really.

Group Director, Education: It does not.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Are you certain that some schools are avoiding not avoiding but not recording what they should simply because it does not look good for their image, it does not look good for the school and morale? I am being devil's advocate here but it is part of our job really, just to ensure I am just very concerned about the well-being of staff, particularly with mental health being a big issue and so on, and recruitment. That is why I am going down this line of questioning. It is not to catch anyone out. It is just to try and drill into it a little.

I will make a couple of observations. Absolutely shoulder to shoulder share as we all do, on this side of the panel table, that deep commitment to the well-being of our teaching workforce and all of the support roles that support teachers because you can be a technician, a teaching assistant, a nursery assistant. I know you include those in the people you are caring for, Deputy . We need to get the facts so we are clear. I have no doubt at all that head teachers are holding back from reporting, whether it is child accidents or bumps on heads, if through the very proper operation of publicly sharing information through freedom of information, for example, someone were to tabulate a list of bumps and bruises attended to in a primary school and one school is deemed more if somebody made a crudely table based on that fact I think that would be deeply sad and distracting. The Minister and her manifesto was committed to not having the table type approaches to judging performance.

Deputy R.J. Ward : Absolutely agree.

Group Director, Education:

We absolutely would not want something as serious as health and safety, safeguarding, well-being I do not think this is an aversion to reporting. I think it is just not very clear what you constitute as verbal abuse or physical abuse. That is the piece we need. So those are the figures for the academic year to date. A few more weeks of academic year. Our work is to get really good data, just as you referenced with exclusions, the better we get at measuring and counting the numbers will probably go up. Not because of itself the situation is worse we have just got better at reporting it. Of course, we should make that public but, as I say, if it is utilised by people in an unhelpful way that would be detrimental. The key driver for knowing the data is we do something about it.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

You can reassure staff that if they are affected that they will be supported and not

Group Director, Education:

That it will be reported and that they will be supported, yes.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That they will be supported.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can we look at the other side of the coin? It is not just the teacher that is involved in this, it is the children and whose behaviour is usually driven by something. You have an ultimate tool in terms of

immediate response with a child who is violent in school and that would be exclusion, would it not? What is the current arrangement for exclusion and what alternatives to attending the original school, what alternatives are there to ensure the education continues?

Group Director, Education:

Exclusion rightly focuses our minds but has been in the public domain. There is an obvious first point to make because some people have sought to use our recent exclusion data to compare us to other school systems in other jurisdictions. Permanent exclusion, where a student is struck off the register of a school is I was going to say incredibly rare but it is not part of the Jersey system, which suggests straightway and I know - pardon me if I am making what might be an obvious point - but an individual troubled child who might be in the area of behaviours that lead to exclusion if, in a school system, in another place you get permanently excluded, that happens once and you only feature on that school record once. In the Jersey system we are looking to be restorative and get the young person back but if their behaviours are extreme they might get a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth exclusion. The exclusion numbers as individual events is going to be much higher. I do not think of itself, as serious as the issue of exclusions and the behaviour that might hurt another student, a member of staff, or a member of the public, a visitor, is serious. But I think not having lots of permanent exclusions in the system is a strength of Jersey's inclusion. There are other options. The length of exclusion. It may be the young person needs another provision, move to a different sort of school or even a fresh start to another mainstream school; sometimes relationships break down. Much of the support for children and young people, if it works, will involve other people, principally the family, are very important. Where families in schools work together you get resolution. But we have got some very complex packages built around children being excluded that may involve the States of Jersey Police, involve the Youth Service, involve the Princes Trust, involve Jersey Sport, involve a whole load of agencies who have built packages of education around a young person who mainstream school and regular lessons do not work. That is done very quietly and confidentially; the family, as I say, being part of that. Because we do have some troubled young people.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What about the other children in a classroom who may encounter the extreme behaviours? They do not behave in that way and their education is being damaged. I am thinking genuinely about the quiet child who is well behaved. What about their safety and their protection and what is the response for their well-being? I absolutely understand about troubled children. I support any funding bid that you put in to support that. I would absolutely 100 per cent support that and I think the panel would. How do you ensure that those children's well-being is at the forefront as well? Because it can be very disturbing for another child to see a teacher that they get on very well with being sworn at and things thrown at them. Children, I do not think, are bad generally. They are very, very good.

They have got great attitudes and they just what would you do to reassure parents who might have a child who is encountering them, so to speak?

Group Director, Education:

Having been a teacher for a long time - I was a head teacher for quite a long time - that is the greatest challenge in some ways because your duty of care is to every child or young person in your school. Be your duty of care to the individual who might be behaving poorly or very poorly or aggressively and your duty of care to those who might be directly impacted or indirectly because of their loss of learning. You only get one go at school. That is why attendance is really important because if you are not there you are not benefiting from it. If it is impacted by poor behaviour, the duty of care of a head teacher and all of us, if you like to the many, or to the individual or the small number, is a balancing act because the parents, one will have a view of what should happen and the parents of the other will have a different view. That requires the skill of professional training, the integrity and the perspective of the school leader to balance that. It is a challenge. Our role is to make sure we have got the wraparound services advice or, in extreme, alternative provision that allows both needs to be met.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Minister, can I ask you, do you think your terms of provision is good enough?

The Minister for Education: As in an assault?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

As in general. We only have an assault as a genuine alternative away from school.

The Minister for Education:

Just in the last few weeks particularly, I have had emails from a 15 year-old about issues around bullying in the school, the way they do not feel supported. They have got mental health issues. They are kicking out because they are not feeling supported.

[10:45]

It is a really hard balancing act for a teacher or head teacher or a school to deal with some of these really extreme behaviours. It does make me question how we do inclusion properly and what is right for the individual at the end. Trying to balance that in a classroom when a teacher wants to teach - that is why they have gone into that profession - and not effectively be, I do not know, the second parent or the social worker, trying to help the situation. I think what we have lost maybe in our

education system is building resilience in our individuals, not just in the education system but because it is a tri-partnership. You have your parent, you have the child and you have the education and the 3 of us should be working well together to ensure that the outcome are much higher or it reaches their absolute potential on where they can go. No matter what needs they have. I think that is very much at the heart of the inclusion. But I do question with the demand, the challenges that we are now facing and we are seeing in schools. Of course we have got a huge demographic bulge that is coming through our schools at the moment, which I think is probably adding to the pressure that teachers are feeling and seeing in schools. I do not think we should ever not question something. It is not about writing a policy or putting something in place and saying: "Right, that is it, just get on with it." The team in the department do their absolute best that they can to support the schools as and when some of these extreme behaviours occur. I question whether we have the right support and wraparound in the individual schools because some of these behaviours you need to nip it in the bud there and then. It is not about going to lots of meetings in between and putting these things because this particular email I have had from this 15 year-old, it is very much that. They just feel like it is just a meeting, going backwards and forwards, being told they would be looked after and then hearing a whole different story from somebody else. I think there is a lot of learning that we can do from the feedback we get from individuals. Of course the one thing that we have got to learn to do better, I feel, not just in Education but right across the States is listening to the voice of that child and understanding why they are feeling that way. Because sometimes, and I think historically and I have seen it first-hand, is that it was too easy to throw away those types of comments when people are really feeling downtrodden, unheard, kept in the corner and not wanted. So I think we have got a huge learning curve to go on.

The Deputy of St. John :

That brings us nicely, really, to the fact that you have a new addition to the Education Services who is now the custodian of C.A.M.H.S. (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services).

The Minister for Education: Not legally.

Assistant Minister for Education: That is the intention, yes.

The Deputy of St. John :

That is an interesting comment. Perhaps you would like to expand on that.

The Minister for Education:

Well, there is, as you know, a target operating model that is going on across the States at the moment and there was a discussion, it has always been on the back burner, about C.A.M.H.S. coming over to Children, Young People, Education and Skills of course because Education has absorbed the Children's Services now as well, so the C.A.M.H.S. and the Child Development and Therapy Centre came over to Children, Young People, Education and Skills on 3rd June. The target operating model that has now gone out to consultation will seek feedback from everybody about what they think of what has been put into that consultation. Of course in that consultation there is this bit about C.A.M.H.S. sitting underneath Education and one thing I would say is I am not legally responsible for it at the moment. The Minister for Health and Social Services is still legally responsible for C.A.M.H.S. and the idea behind this, because they have gone through one phase where the line management and the responsibility on those sides of things will be handled through clinical professionals and it is about the operational side of things, as I understand, for it to be working with the likes of our inclusion teams, special educational needs and educational psychologists, but like I say, it is going out for consultation so depending on the feedback and what comes back from the variety of different people working within Children, Young People, Education and Skills will depend on whether it stays sitting where it is shown in the consultation document.

Assistant Minister for Education:

Certainly through the discussions we have had one of the key things is while it might come under the responsibility of C.Y.P.E.S. what is critical is to make sure that the clinical governance side of it there is a memorandum of understanding with Health in order to ensure that the skills and the requirements through the professional bodies is maintained through that route, and that is essential.

The Deputy of St. John :

Yes, and of course the fact that you have taken this under your umbrella is because C.A.M.H.S. specifically deal with children. They are offering what would be a psychological and psychiatric support service. You have people in the schools, namely school counsellors, who are offering much the same thing, I imagine.

The Minister for Education:

There are different levels. So if you ask a clinical psychologist or health psychologist and then you ask an educational psychologist you will see different points of views and different ways of handling things, because there are slightly different ways of dealing with it in terms of psychology. A counsellor role I would hope would be that first point of contact in the school. Well, the teacher would usually be the first point of contact but the counsellor would be that ongoing support, that ongoing advice, the ongoing need within the school setting. Then of course we also have primary care support workers, which are a new addition in the last couple of years, which goes round to support schools for the next level in terms of need, and then of course we have got educational psychologists. I think we have got 4 now, so we have got educational psychologists there that of course deal with the much higher level and  deal with the inclusion teams and dealing with behaviours, exclusions, and all those types of particular issues. C.A.M.H.S., as I understand it, and I will make it clear it is not under my remit yet because it is going through a consultation at the moment, so it still sits technically and legally with Health, but I have spoken quite a bit with the Minister for Health and Social Services about how we ensure that if this was to go ahead this works properly right from the bottom all the way up and from the up all the way down to properly support the individual at the end of the service. I do not know if there is anything you want to add.

Group Director, Education:

As the Minister said, there is a consultation on the Department for Children, Young People, Education and Skills' structure out now, it was announced yesterday following consultation with the 5 unions that represent the work force. As the Minister and the Assistant Minister have said in that consultation document, C.A.M.H.S. is presented as part of a family of services under Education with all of the important caveats around political responsibility and indeed, as Deputy Maçon said, the clinical governance and professional support. We already have a well-established high-performing educational psychology and well-being team and you have got clinical psychologists, educational psychologists and we are exploring how we can best work together. The key point is, it is almost all of our children and young people are in schools. Some are in alternative provision. We have mentioned some are home schooled, so a few might be on Robin Ward at any one time, but within the school to access the right services it is graduated. You mentioned school counsellors. Some of the strongest people doing work in this area, we have got around 90, sorry, education drops into acronyms and initialisation all the time but we have got around 90 E.L.S.A.s, (Emotional Literacy Support Assistants) who are much more accessible and quicker to get to than maybe a counsellor, so this is graduated. So under a school's pastoral lead or special educational needs co-ordinator, there are resources all the way from the specialist work of C.A.M.H.S. to the universal offering in the school to help with the well-being and care, and we want to get that continuum right.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is there a case for bringing them together more so and sharing their skills and perhaps generally upskilling their skills?

Group Director, Education:

That is the model, so we need to ask the professionals what they think, because as I say, we have got an educational psychology and well-being service. C.A.M.H.S. do psychology and well-being, so why not? That is our model, but due process is really to consult all interested parties, not just the people themselves, if this is the best way of doing it.

The reason I ask the question is it would seem that simply moving C.A.M.H.S. into the situation, the preferred situation, does not necessarily add benefit to children, because they already have that benefit under Health. To bring those counselling services and other support services together at a larger resort might have benefit.

The Minister for Education:

One of the things that we need to recognise though is this learning process off each other. I would like to think if there was more operationally close working together between the Education well-being team and the C.A.M.H.S. team that there is that learning process for each other. If you are talking about the child right at the centre of it, it is about that child understanding the right pathways for them and ensuring that they are at the right place at the right time, and the parents understanding so they can have the right support at home for the child. It is not just about the child in the education setting or in a house setting. Ultimately, as well that child is at home and the parents need that support, the family needs the support, so that it is a wraparound support system that they only get the support at school, for example, and then holidays come and they have got nowhere to go. There are some issues already in the system but this is where we need to, hopefully, if it were to happen this is one of the things that I think would be important is learning from some of the issues that we have, creating the right pathways and the right support systems. Sometimes you will not need a clinical psychologist; you might need somebody not at that qualification level but with that right support for that child that will mean that they will not end up down that road on level 4 or level 3 in C.A.M.H.S. talking their clinical speak. Sometimes that makes people feel not quite the same as everybody else when they have got that C.A.M.H.S. hat on.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Put simply, then, do you think it is a good move?

The Minister for Education:

I see both sides. I think there are risks either way. The first phase where we have had that discussion, the group director, Susan Devlin who is the children's side of things, Change for Children I think it is, so the first phase they have put in this memorandum of understanding to ensure that there is the proper learning and upskilling and professional requirements for the C.A.M.H.S. team. I think that is absolutely crucial because for them to lose that from a Health perspective would be extremely problematic. From my point of view, I would rather hear from the people on the ground that deal with this day-to-day and see where they see the highest risks, and if those risks are not manageable then we need to think again.

The Deputy of St. John :

You have probably gathered we are quite concerned about the move and as a result of that we set up with Health and within the Care of Children in Jersey panel a review panel to look at the move to Education by C.A.M.H.S. and also the move to Fire by the Ambulance Service, so we will be meeting for the first time on Monday and we will be arranging some meetings with you, I am sure.

The Minister for Education:

The other point as well to make is the Minister for Children and Housing is now Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services as well and also Assistant Minister for Education, so there is a join- up politically here as well to ensure that the legal and governance side of things is properly managed as well and we all put our 2 pennies' worth, our concerns around risks, and when the Scrutiny report came out about mental health it was one of the first conversations I had with Deputy Renouf , the Minister for Health and Social Services. He was not sure and I was not sure if this was the right thing and we have had quite a lot of conversations about it. I think this is one of those areas where there is potential for good things to come out of this, but there could potentially be down sides. I am not a psychologist, I am not an expert in children's mental welfare and I think it is really important and crucial that as many people as possible in Children, Young People, Education and Skills feed back on this consultation as part of the target operating model for us to fully identify all the risks around this and then it is for us to determine whether the risks can be managed, whether they are appropriate, whether it is the right thing. One thing that we have got to keep in mind when we are doing that is the person at the end of the service, the one that is going to be receiving the care that they need.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am going to jump a little bit into the school funding review, because you mentioned it before and I think it is quite integral to some other bits and bobs that we have talked about. What is the rationale for the independent review and let me try to get a picture around who you are going to engage to do it? Will it be a U.K. (United Kingdom) specialist, a Swedish company, will you go to the best jurisdictions in the world of education or will you get somebody who has basically just looked at academies and we know what we are going to get?

[11:00]

The Minister for Education:

There are a number of reasons why this has ended up as an independent school funding review. There is just purely no capacity in the department to carry out the extensive amount of work that needs to be done, because this is not just about secondary schools, it is not just about primary schools, it is not just about Jersey Premium. It is the whole thing and 16 to 18 of course plays a part in that as well, because you have just done the post-16 review. So it is looking at how schools are

funded, what the age-weighted pupil unit looks like and whether it is fit for purpose. There has been some fantastic work done by the department and relevant head teachers on particularly secondary education that has identified potentially quite big shortfalls, but we need it to all be pieced together because one of the things that we do not want to do is say we have an issue here with a primary school, we have an issue here with the secondary but it is not transitioning through properly. Those are some of the issues that we are seeing at the moment with regards to school funding, is that transitioning through into the next school or moving from one school to another, making sure that the funding follows the pupil. The point with the independent is because it is so extensive and there is just no capacity to have one person doing all this work, everyone is trying to do business as usual and be teachers and support the schools, that having somebody from outside would help for analysing and taking on board the issues that we are facing. The tendering process, and I have been pretty hot on this because I am not a fan of the U.K. system, I think my director knows that by now, and I think if we are in a position where we can create absolutely the right sustainable foundation for education in Jersey, which is my goal this term, to try to have the right law and the right funding, get around the policies in the right way and make sure that after that it then starts to smooth out and things improve and we get really good outcomes for the children. I have pushed on the tendering process about ensuring that it goes global, not just about the U.K. but that you are looking at European, global, everywhere. There are various countries and various organisations. I suggested that it may be worth making all these organisations aware of this tender going out, because they may not be part of the tender portal that we have, so those are places like I think it is the National Center on Education and the Economy, which is a pretty huge organisation. There are many, dare I say it, consultants around the world or people who I would like to say an educational specialist, because that is what we need. It is not another accountant, it is not another KPMG, it is not another Ernst and Young, it is not those types of organisations. What is really important is recognising that this is an educational specialist that understands how schools need to be funded to achieve the absolute right outcomes that we are looking for as a team to support the children to reach their absolute potential.

Assistant Minister for Education:

Of course also as part of the document is the C.S.P. (Common Strategic Policy) document, and I think there was an amendment looking at head room that also looked at overall school funding, which I think was added to this particular review.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We are very pleased that it has. I think the recognition on funding is so important and that is why we ask about it, because obviously spending money to have a review to tell us that we need more money it has been responded to, and that takes us into there has been recent industrial action over pay and resources as well, I believe. Do you think that we are nearing an end to the industrial action now? I know one union looks like it has accepted a pay offer and the other union is still in dispute, although they were not fully taking strike action; they were taking short strike action. Do you see an end to that in the coming months before this review starts?

The Minister for Education:

I believe there has been a recent discussion between the Chief Minister and the other teaching union that has recently been rejected. I do not know the ins and outs around the conversation that they are having, but it may be worth Seán, because he is the lead for Education in terms of being at the table around the negotiations, so he may be able to give you a flavour of where we are.

Group Director, Education:

If it is helpful, we did have 3 teaching unions in dispute, the N.A.H.T. (National Association of Head Teachers) that represents head teachers and deputy head teachers has settled its dispute with the S.E.B. The National Education Union has settled and as you rightly say one union, the N.A.S.U.W.T. (National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers) is still in dispute. I have been present as representing the Minister for Education in all of the negotiating meetings, predominantly under the auspices of the J.A.C.S. (Jersey Advisory and Conciliatory Service). A meeting has just started with the N.A.S.U.W.T. to continue the negotiations and I will be, as the important work of Scrutiny is completed, moving to that meeting, so I say that because it is as live as now, to seek resolution with the final union so that we can all work in partnership, all the unions, and indeed the unions that represent non-teaching staff in our schools, so that we can genuinely work to build a better and stronger education service. It is very much a matter of what you have been just describing, by giving input to the independent funding review, so it is live in terms of answering your question.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Will you talk to the unions in the independent funding review, because I know that all of the unions in the U.K. have done a huge amount of research all over the world in terms of funding campaigns, all of the unions, not just the unions I know very well, obviously, but all of them have got an enormous amount of input on that and they do come from a really good perspective of putting the child first as well.

The Minister for Education:

I would like to think whoever we appoint to do this particular funding review will have the conversation with all teachers, head teachers, the relevant unions and the department as well, because they are ultimately the people at the front line. I hate to say it, but they are the people who know where the bodies are buried, and the issues that they face on a daily basis. I would rather implement the outcomes of the review as being informed by the very people doing the work on the ground rather than some high-level research that you could get off Google.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Shall we move on to the post-16 review?

The Deputy of St. John : We can do.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am conscious of time to get through, and we have got quite a large number of questions. It has been broadly accepted by the vast majority of panels, and we are very pleased that we produced a really positive report in terms of what we said. What do you hope to achieve with the consultation that you are taking on in addition to what you have accepted already? You have got a consultation at the moment going on.

Assistant Minister for Education:

That is absolutely right. The point of our consultation is we have a choice between the issue that the States have mandated us to look at, higher funding for students because of the interim scheme that was approved just at the end of last term. So the Director for Skills said: "Why do we not look at the system across the piece and therefore we can consider how the whole thing should be funded?" which at the moment is looking at a higher vision level of where we want to take the service in the future, which is slightly further than the remit of your Scrutiny Panel review. The benefit of having your review is it has been a very good submission for us to consider into how we can develop that further. Saboohi, is there anything you would like to add?

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

No, I think it is helpful. As you are aware, the consultation has been out. Today is the last day of the consultation. We have received over 400 responses to the online portal that we have set up. We have had 6 round table sessions, which have had a good level of attendance and the email that we have set up we still receive responses until next Tuesday when we will fully close the programme. In terms of your report, we are very pleased that your findings match what we are suggesting in terms of our strategic vision, which will complement each other in terms of the next steps that we are taking where we will set out an implementation plan that we hope to be able to launch on 10th July and you are invited to join the panel at the conference that we have set up, which we hope to become an annual conference where we will bring the dialogue between educationalists and providers of the schemes and employers together and make sure that the direction of the strategy that we have set out to achieve is going to remain on track. I think in a way the 2 streams of the

work that has started from your point of view, scrutinising the current system and where we are together with the vision document that we have set out, that will outline our aspirations for the future will come together in a way that we will be able to make things happen.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What have you done to encourage young people to participate in your consultation? I have got to say, because we are very proud of it, was it 2,000 young people who got to respond? We keep talking about putting children first and in this instance we feel that we did it and we are very pleased with that. We formally say thanks to the schools and the colleges for getting their students to do that. It was a really positive aspect of the review. What have you done to do a similar thing?

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

We have had some really good suggestions from people who came in our round table, to see how we can extend the reach of our consultation. As you are aware, within my remit I have the Skills Jersey and they have good connections with schools in terms of career advice and they go in, we have the big programme in terms of innovation. I am also fortunate enough to have the Youth Service within my remit, who interact with young people in a non-educational setting where receiving comments from young people is far easier on matters that are relevant to them. We have used the parents' emails that are available as well to encourage more engagement from the parents and all of those will be taken into account when we look at the results. The conference that is set up, the Jersey annual Skills and Employability conference will have a high level of presence of young people. I have attended all of the post-16 institutions and I have interacted with their senior leadership team and I have asked them to make sure that the consultation is pushed out through the school through their young people for their comments. At this moment in time, the way that the system is set up, unless the individuals who are giving feedback are willing to go through the registration process, you do not know who has commented. So it enables people to anonymously provide a response, but the schools that have provided a response have had sessions where they have interacted with school children and they have captured their views about the consultation. Hopefully over the next 2 weeks or so I will be able to consolidate the results, taking into account your Scrutiny Report and produce a White Paper with some timeline for some policy development over the next, probably, decade because what we have set out is not a short-term strategy. It is a longer-term strategy and that will influence some of the work that needs to happen in 2020 and some of that needs to be a longer-term plan.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So there might be some long-term thinking? Wow. Be careful there. Given your agreement, then, what do you see happening with regards to particularly the Jersey Progression Qualification and the Jersey Premium and we are talking post-16 and 16 to 18? We saw some news reports in the J.E.P., and I have to be careful what I say now, because it was quite nice to me the other day, it will not last, the acceptance it seems of continuing the Jersey Premium because the pilot worked well, and the future of the Jersey Progression Qualification at Highlands, I do not know if there are any changes at Highlands.

Assistant Minister for Education:

Are you asking us about policy under development, Chair?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

I am asking you to comment on a newspaper report, and it agreed with our recommendations. I thought it was quite good. Yes, I am, to some extent.

The Minister for Education:

Is this about the Jersey Premium?

Deputy R.J. Ward : Yes.

The Minister for Education:

I think we have got something in place at the moment. Sorry, there is so much going on.

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

With regard to the Government Plan, we are taking part in terms of establishing the department's needs for any additional funding and Seán will be able to explain the levels and so on.

Group Director, Education:

You would not be surprised from discussion over many years that in the previous term, under M.T.F.P.2. (Medium Term Financial Plan 2) we introduced a pilot phase and then full implementation of a project we called Jersey Premium. We are looking in the next phase, so it has contributed to the bidding process that the Council of Ministers are now considering, which I think will be completed by mid-July and lodged before the States. We are seeking to grow Jersey Premium, both in scope of range up to the age of 18 and to get to the levels that other countries might put similar approaches to supporting children at risk of lower achievement than they might otherwise achieve on the basis of family, economic or other backgrounds. That is our ambition.

[11:15]

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Nice to hear that it is a work in progress and that it is likely to be lodged this year.

The Minister for Education:

You might see something lodged in July.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We will look out for that.

The Deputy of St. John :

Because we are running out of time, and I know the chairman likes to end on time, can we go to finding 27 of the review, and I will read it out for the sake of the public, which is: "There is an acknowledgement that using technology to increase the choice for young people in terms of accessing courses is required to promote and learn at any time, any place and any style of education. This is happening at one post-16 provider at present and that is Hautlieu." The question arising from that is given your agreement with the finding of 27, can the Minister please explain why this is being consulted on further and not acted on already?

The Minister for Education:

You particularly refer to the I.T. infrastructure?

The Deputy of St. John : Yes.

The Minister for Education:

You know that we are going through a huge change in the public sector at the moment and there are discussions around where the I.T. infrastructure sits in terms of bidding for the right money, for the right equipment to support the schools and all those various issues around it. This has been a particularly interesting one discussing with the chief operating officer, if that is his title, around it. Too many titles around.

The Deputy of St. John :

We all need to have a badge, I think.

The Minister for Education:

I think so. What ties in nicely with this is the discussion around the money that is needed for I.T. infrastructure as a whole right across the States. We also need to recognise in schools and the educational side of things about the safeguarding around using I.T. and of course the commissioner has recently written to me about the concerns around ensuring safety, safeguarding and all those types of things. There are a chunk of things that we need to do and I recognise that Hautlieu has been able to put those in place, but the reason behind the consultation is that it will fit against the Government Plan, it will fit within the vision of post-16 and it will enable us to identify at what stage and what is needed also in terms of not just 16 to 18, because sometimes you need some of these skills earlier on and it is making sure that we have got the right programmes in place all the way through. There is a piece of work there to make sure that we have got the right things and I do not know whether Deputy Maçon wants to

Assistant Minister for Education:

I absolutely take your point and I think the Head of I.T. has been very frustrated with the systems in the States they have got to use at the moment and really wants to push things ahead, but the issue is having that joined-up approach States-wide so that licences and all that type of stuff is in place.

The Deputy of St. John :

The thing is what they have done at Hautlieu is just simply take themselves out of the education system and use a server and use it in the classroom, so it is

Assistant Minister for Education: Which as a private institution they can do.

The Deputy of St. John :

Well, perhaps we need to change the law and allow the States to do that as well, because it just seems to work and it is free.

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

May I add in terms of the work that is carried out in Highlands as well will pave the way for Office 365, which is the preferred I.T. system for the States, which is currently being used across the Highlands at the whole level providing students with access to education online where they want it and so on. I am absolutely behind the work that is being done in Hautlieu. I have visited and it is inspiring what they do. We need to bring back the choice of systems and services that are available to educationalists to be able to individualise and personalise the learning to meet the needs of their young people. Those conversations are being had. We had a representation from the I.T. team, in fact they worked with us to enable us to transform the education systems within the schools and within post-16 and specifically Highland and Hautlieu would be looked at as exemplars for using 2 completely different systems and achieving far better access and more engagement with learners. I do not want that to be looked at as we have to start everything from scratch because Highlands again is a different system from what is on the main government network and has been able to achieve what Hautlieu has achieved with a small provision across the proportionally much larger

institution and that is already in line for some best practice from Office 365 where they are looking at the practice that happens in Highlands and looking at that to become an exemplar practice for other people to come and look. We should not dismiss some of the best practice that is already taking place within the limitations that we have and some of those limitations are absolutely essential to be looked at, because our system is intrinsically linked with the government and we do not want to have a leak or security flaws, because our education system is not as robust as other areas.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have run out of time and we have a number of questions as well from members of the public that we want to get to. If we do not get to those I may submit them to you or just email them or even put them in the form of a written question so you can formally answer. I think that would be a good thing to do, but do you want to

The Deputy of St. John :

Yes, we will do 28. Again a question around finding 28 in the report: "It is not currently possible for students studying at Highlands and Hautlieu to access courses at the fee-paying schools and vice versa." The question being can you, Minister, please explain how you hope to overcome the barriers that exist between Highlands, Hautlieu and the fee-paying schools?

The Minister for Education:

One of the issues I can remember off the top of my head is around the timetabling, which is usually an issue that we have here, around how timetabling works in the 2 different settings and whether we can work better in terms of that. I think we have got an absolutely huge opportunity with the potential to develop the Highlands campus to ensure that we bring in a requirement for better, closer working between both Hautlieu and Highlands, in particular. I believe the fee-paying providers who do post-16 in terms of collaboration do collaborate with each other and I think that again is another one of those timetabling areas. It has been going on for quite a while now but I think there is potential from my point of view here for us to ensure that there is the right collaboration and set the right direction now with a change to post-16 with the consultation that is going on, with hopefully the new campus, should the funding be approved and a feasibility go ahead next year, to look at the whole campus and what we can do. I would like to believe that people need to think outside the box when we are looking at that because post-16 could be all types of offerings, choices and opportunities. I think having those conversations will broaden people's minds and people's ways of thinking. Sometimes it is not about providing a particular course at certain times and certain timetabled lessons and there is more flexibility to be put into the system. I think there is a lot of opportunity there. It is not going to happen overnight and as Saboohi was saying, this is a 10-year with the post- 16 side of things. I think there are some possible short-term wins that we can do along the way but I think it is important that we try to join it up and make sure that the direction meets the right outcomes.

Assistant Minister for Education:

That is the talk about collaboration between Highlands and Hautlieu where we have got more scope. The question I believe was asking about between non-fee-paying and fee-paying and I think that practically that is the crux of the matter because the parents will be asking: "Wait a minute, if I am sending my child to Hautlieu and they are doing three-quarters of their education at Hautlieu what is going on here?" or vice versa, so that would be a bigger issue for us to consider exactly how that would work, which we just have not done.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So the main obstacle is the fee?

Assistant Minister for Education: I think so.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

We have got a few minutes. I want to try to talk about early years. I will not ask the generic question about the work of the Early Years board just yet. I will try to pick up a couple of questions that we have had sent to us and that perhaps we can get answers to in the next 5 minutes, so try to keep them short. In terms of staff working in pre-school education what is the minimum standard qualification that staff are required to have if they are working in pre-school, so nurseries?

Assistant Minister for Education:

Are you talking States-provided nurseries or private sector?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Both, so if they are different it would be interesting to know.

The Minister for Education:

Yes, they are, so in our school nurseries they all have a teacher.

Assistant Minister for Education: A qualified nursery teacher.

The Minister for Education:

Absolutely, and then of course they will have 2 nursery assistants that work with them.

Group Director, Education:

Or 3, depending on the size of the institution.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

What level would those nursery assistants be qualified to?

Group Director, Education: Probably level 3 qualifications.

The Deputy of St. John :

Okay, and that might be such as the level 3 qualification that exists at Highlands, for example, that would be ideal, and I know a lot of them do. The private sector?

Assistant Minister for Education:

It depends at the level, so the more senior levels are required the more senior qualifications. I cannot remember exactly what that is, but provided they meet the ratio the staff under them can then have the lower level of qualifications, the N.P.Q.s (National Professional Qualifications) and things like that, though the requirement of, for example, a degree for every head nursery person is not the same in a private setting as it is in the States system.

The Deputy of St. John :

So you could have someone heading a nursery with a level 3 qualification?

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

No. The bare minimum is a level 5 qualification which is a leadership and management qualification. That is someone running the nursery and in terms of staff who would work and assist with the running of the nursery which would be an early years' specialist would be level 3. In some locations they would have level 2, but we are looking to make sure that that would become compulsory for it to be a level 3.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

But it is not currently. This is a little bit unfair but what sort of proportion of private nurseries would have the number of level 2 qualified staff that are

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Not a huge amount. There are vacancies and they are struggling and the conversation that we have had with Highlands, it is not they do not have the skill set, it is because they do not have the experience and the knowledge. It is important for us to keep that quality and I cannot remember the lady's name. Is it the manager?

Assistant Minister for Education:

We met with a representative of Jersey Early Years who expressed concern to us and we are working

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

We have a schedule of plan to address their concerns and go out mainly with their recruitment campaign that would enable them to raise the profile of their early years' sector to be able to recruit better, and working with Highlands to make sure that we have training provision available for that.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is the level 2 qualification a part of the progression qualification?

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

My understanding is no. There is the first year of the Early Years qualification that is equivalent to level 2. If you do an advanced diploma then you would receive a level 3, so it is a normal diploma that they would get that is at level 2, but I can double-check the progression. I can check if Highlands also does a progression programme in this area as well or not. I am not aware.

Group Director, Education:

There is the option to move on to a foundation degree and then a full degree and that would be wonderful for the sector, if they all went in to manage lots of wonderful private, voluntary and independent nurseries, but they often may go off to become teachers and do that extra year of P.D.T. (Professional Development Training) so the Highlands course does give you that progression and throughput but the sector does find recruitment a challenge.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

That clock is wrong by 5 minutes, so we can ask a couple more. In terms of you are talking about C.P.D. (Continuing Professional Development) there are you not for nursery staff?

Director, Children, Young People, Education and Skills:

Not purely. It is the whole programme depending on what they need.

Deputy R.J. Ward :

So is there monitoring of the training of staff? So if a member of staff enters a nursery with a level 3 qualification in, say, nursery assistant, I cannot remember, is there a monitoring of private nurseries so that they are getting continual professional development, even at level 3 because processes change and safeguarding rules change?

Group Director, Education:

Absolutely, yes. Under the Day Care of Children (Jersey) Law we have both a regulatory function, the head of Early Years has one team discharging and a quality assurance function, so there is a whole chain from every nursery as part of their validation under the law. It has their training log and safeguarding is a very good example.

The Deputy of St. John :

Is that an inspection process, or is that self-regulation?

Group Director, Education:

No, we have regulators under the law, at the moment annually but we are reviewing our processes with the sector as an annual registration regulation, so if a nursery or setting the focus is positive. It is predicated on improving on your past best, but if a nursery is falling foul of the regulation they have a set period of time to put things right to maintain their registration under the law.

[11:30]

Assistant Minister for Education:

I think providers would say that when it comes to the re-registration process it is a very robust system, some might say the hoops they have to jump through in order to get re-registered are quite strict.

The Deputy of St. John :

Can we move on to secondary education for just a moment, and it is rather a flippant thing to be doing, how is Les Quennevais going?

The Minister for Education:

Very well. That is a good news story. They are all on time, on budget, doing extremely well. They are expected to have the power on in January, water on in March. The contract completion is expected at the end of July next year and they are all ready and waiting to move in, in September next year. It is a really good story, not just a story, but it is going to be an excellent outcome, considering what that school has had to put up with in terms of infrastructure over the years and the demands that they have got in the west of the Island for pupils going to the school. Yes, they are all on time and it is great for building in the States. It is a good example of how well things could and do work sometimes.

Education and Health go head to head.

The Minister for Education:

They have not got a hospital yet, though, have they?

Deputy R.J. Ward :

Okay, I am conscious we are smack bang on time, which I really like, so thank you very much for your time and we will call the hearing to a close. Thank you very much. It is 11.30 a.m.

[11:31]