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Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Quarterly Hearing
Witness: The Minister for Home Affairs
Friday, 26th April 2019
Panel:
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman) Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter
Deputy T. Pointon of St. John .
Witnesses:
The Minister for Home Affairs
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs Director General, Justice and Home Affairs Acting Director, Customs and Immigration
[10:02]
Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier (Chairman):
I welcome you to the quarterly public hearing for the Minister for Home Affairs. I draw your attention to the scrutiny panel rules in front of you, which I am sure you are very familiar with. I ask members of the public to switch off their mobile phones and everybody here, or put them on silent at least and there is no video recording, but it is available online to download anyway. We should start with introductions for those thousands watching online. Deputy Rob Ward , I chair the Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel.
Deputy R.E. Huelin of St. Peter : Deputy Rowland Huelin of St. Peter .
Deputy T. Pointon of St. John :
Deputy Trevor Pointon or known as the Deputy of St. John .
Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier : Constable of St. Helier , Simon Crowcroft .
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The Constable of St. Clement , Len Norman, Minister for Home Affairs.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Deputy Gregory Guida, Assistant Minister for Home Affairs.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
If the officers, once they come, want to introduce themselves that will be helpful for everybody. Okay, we start off. The first thing we are keen to ask is given the recent States decision and commitment from the Minister to appoint separate heads of service for the police and customs, what is the timeline for updating the target operating model.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay. We are working on that now and what I have asked the department to do, particularly with fire and ambulance is to undertake a detailed service review looking at the resilience, the capacity, the all that they do, the way that they do it and see how that can be enhanced. After we have done all that, which will involve not only the heads of service but also the staff and the staff associations, decide on exactly how we are going to go take that forward. We are still looking for greater co-operation throughout the services, in fact we had a meeting yesterday with members of the staff association from the ambulance and the fire service and I detected a willingness there to modernise where appropriate, to become more efficient where appropriate but also to maintain the high level of service at least maintain the high level of service they already provide and then hopefully enhance it. So hopefully those service reviews will be completed by the end of June. We will then make decisions after that how we want to proceed and whether we would require any changes which would need to come to the States to meet the decision of the States that the Deputy of St. John 's proposition amended by the Constable of St. Lawrence would require.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That will involve further consultation on the new structure, if you like, and proposals across the workforce?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely, and I made a commitment yesterday to meet monthly with the representatives of the staff association to examine how things are progressing. I think it is very important that those at the coalface, if you like, are very much involved because they could probably come up with good suggestions and good proposals on how to develop their services. So I think it is very important that they are involved at the very beginning.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
We have also tasked S.E.B. (States Employment Board) to hire the heads of services.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Right, okay. That leads on to the next question about do you want to ask that?
The Deputy of St. John :
Yes, when do you think you are going to have personnel in place?
The Minister for Home Affairs: Personnel?
The Deputy of St. John : The new heads of services.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Okay, as the Assistant Minister said, we have had discussion with the States Employment Board who are supporting our decision to appoint a Chief of Police, Chief Fire Officer and Chief of Customs and Immigration, all of which are currently acting posts. So they are developing the job evaluations, updating the job descriptions and once all that is done we will set in train the process to appoint.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Can I wind back a bit? Do you envisage any distinct advantages or maybe disadvantages both in timescale or finance of the Deputy of St. John 's proposition? What impact will the Deputy of St. John 's proposition have? Have you seen anything in the review that you are undertaking, the changes that you have started as a result of the Deputy of St. John 's proposition, that have given you any red flags, alerts, potential advantages, disadvantages to the target operation?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, no, they give us no worry whatsoever. As you know, the Deputy of St. John 's proposition was totally acceptable to me. The amendment of the Constable of St. Lawrence had a potential to give us more difficulty but in reality, of course, that is the States decision and we will abide by it 100 per
cent. But I do not see anything in there as yet which would cause us any grief. All it really says is if you want to do anything, like integrate totally the fire service and the ambulance service, then we have to go back to the States with a business case and convince the States that is the right thing to do. No problem with that. If that is the route we decide to go down. If we do not decide to go down that route then we have not got to go back to the States because nothing changes from that perspective. There will be changes because there will be greater co-operation and integration but not necessarily becoming one service. But that is a decision for another day.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
We did not actually get a timescale. You said it would happen, the appointments of the Head of Customs, Chief Officer Fire and Rescue, States of Jersey Police, do we have a deadline, so to speak. A time deadline when they will be
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, we do not have a deadline as such. Clearly now that decision has been made we want it to happen and I am sure that the acting incumbents want it to happen and the staff want it to happen because they want certainty in knowing going forward. But also it has to right. As far as the police are concerned we are involving the human resources and the Jersey Police Authority in updating the job description and, as I say, the job evaluation. As soon as that is done then we will start the process. The same with the other roles as well. I cannot give you a deadline but we will still be talking months rather than weeks.
The Deputy of St. John :
What is the major areas you have identified in relation to the need for the existing job description to be updated or changed?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is not really a question for me, although I would say the job descriptions have not been updated for some considerable time and the States Human Resources Department, the S.E.B. and ourselves want to be sure that everything is as it should be in this day and age and what we have learnt over the years so it is right for the future, right for the new incumbent. There is nothing that worries us at this stage, it is just to make sure that everything is in the right place.
The Deputy of St. John :
I am just wondering if you would like to bring Mr. Blazeby in, who is, I think, struggling to perhaps make a point on this.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I cannot see him.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Good morning, Julian Blazeby, Director General, Justice and Home Affairs. In respect of that specific point, there are 3 job descriptions as the Minister said for Customs and Immigration, Fire and Police. Certainly the police one was 10 years old and quite out of date in terms of modern thinking around policing. Fundamentally the job descriptions did not reflect any of the one government principles in the new Government and some of the changes around the principles of one government. In saying that, they have been done. Two have already gone off for job evaluation. The Police Authority were meeting to discuss the Chief of Police one yesterday. So hopefully we will hear back from them in the next few days and they will go straight off to be evaluated. Two have already gone, one should come back soon, as soon as we have that back we will go into the Jersey Appointments Commission process and they will be advertised. So we are trying to do it as quickly as possible.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have a couple of questions. Firstly, what tier will the role of Chief of Police, States of Jersey Police, sit at?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Tier 3.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Tier 3. What was it before? It was
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Well, it was not because the tiers have only come in under the new under this programme.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That is the same as the proposed target operating model before the States decision?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So there is no change there?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
No.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
When you say the principles of one gov, can you give some examples of that?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, so the principles of one gov are things like being more commercially driven, being digital, working together. There are 6 principles and they have been all reflected in all the job description that have been advertised and have been appointed to date. They are not major changes but those need to be incorporated within the job descriptions and then, as I say, if the job descriptions are out of date for example, the Customs and Immigration job description, that does not have any reference to the U.K. (United Kingdom) leaving the E.U. (European Union) and Brexit. So that is an obvious example where they just need to be updated to
The Deputy of St. Peter :
How long have we had an interim in that role? I believe that is an interim role, the Head of Customs and Immigration.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: It is an acting up role.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
How long has that role been an acting up role?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Just 12 months, almost.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
So 12 months. I find that extraordinary when you are trying to build leadership and stability below that that particular role, for example, has been acting for 12 months. It cannot be that difficult to decide whether the said person is good for the role to lead going forwards or not, as the case may be. Why is that taking so long?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that we were looking at a target operating model which could have amalgamated the States of Jersey Police and the Jersey Customs and Immigration Service, therefore it would not have been a good idea to make a substantial appointment for a head of service either at Jersey Customs and Immigration of the States of Jersey Police knowing they might be amalgamated and one of those would have to lose their job. So we decided to keep the acting position until a decision was made on whether the Customs and Immigration would become what we call the law enforcement agency, which would include border control and the States of Jersey Police. I made the decision and announced it in the States a few weeks ago that would not be happening, that is why we can now move to the substantive appointments.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I ask, sorry before we move on from there, about the roles at tier 3? Is that tier 3 responsibility level equivalent to a similar responsibility level in the U.K. or in other jurisdictions, i.e. will it be attractive for somebody with the skills that you need to come here on a tier 3 role as a States of Jersey Chief of Police as it would be in any other jurisdiction?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I am confident it is because I think the tier 3 itself by definition does not actually stipulate the seniority of the job so it is the Chief of Police in charge of the organisation, so first and foremost in charge of 300-odd people. If you look at the U.K. set up then a Chief of Police in the U.K. is answerable to the Police and Crime Commissioner or the Mayor of London in the case of those cities that have mayors appointed. There is no real direct link because of the scale and size of 43 forces into government. It is difficult to compare. If we look at the Isle of Man, for example, the Chief Constable there, the line manager is my equivalent. Now, the consultation feedback was actually if it is tier 3 then, as you know, the original organigram had an dotted line into the group director and the feedback from the States of Jersey senior management team was that was inappropriate for a tier 3 and it should come to the director general.
[10:15]
So we had amended that. Going forward when a Chief of Police is appointed then there will be a dotted line direct to me which reflects the seniority of the post.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Can I just ask, you said 300-odd officers will come under the post?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Three hundred staff in total, including police staff and police officers.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
So where are the other we have 190 now so where are the other 110, are they ?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
No, the organisation is made up of warranted officers, police officers, and police staff, civilians, the total number is just over 300.
The Connétable of St. Helier : Okay.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So you do not see that as an obstacle at all?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Not at all, no.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Okay. I think you have answered that question, do you want to go on to question 5?
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I can if you wish. What progress has been made in undertaking a service review for the current business support capability across the services? I believe you mentioned that in the Assembly recently so can you update us on that?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is happening at the same time. The business support unit, we are doing a service review on that.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: That is ongoing as we speak, yes.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
The standard question: when do you anticipate announcing these findings?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We are hoping that review will be completed in the next 3 to 4 weeks. Again, fully involved with all the individuals who work within the business support area in all the organisations and the senior management teams. We will call that review forward and discuss that with the Minister and Assistant Minister.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Are you envisaging any shocks, i.e. job losses, changes or anything substantive that we should be prepared for?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
The feedback from a number of organisations is that this will hopefully provide a greater business support. So, for example, there is not a huge amount of business support in Customs and Immigration, a lot of staff do it on the side of their desk. We are looking to enhance the support for those organisations that do not have it. In a sense, maintaining support for example where the police do have it because they are the biggest organisation out of all of them.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
You mentioned your support teams supporting staff working on the frontline, can you share with us how that model is going to work because I have got a bit confused when you announced that?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: In terms of business support?
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Yes, your business support team supporting staff working on the frontline. Can you outline how that works?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
So there are some examples where there is not a business manager, for example. You have operational staff who are having to do things like record retention, data protection issues, manage shifts in terms of how it is scheduled and if you have a business support manager or person who can carry out these functions it enables the frontline officers and those operational staff to concentrate on what they are employed to do. At the moment a number of those people are doing it on the side of the desk.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Do you envisage any of those support services being outsourced?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
No, no, as I say a number of the organisations there are 7 organisations in just Home Affairs, not all of them have dedicated business support, some do, some do not so the proposal is to appoint a senior person - and there is one senior person already - to make the opportunity available to appoint a senior person to oversee business and corporate support, to look at things like, you know, where the procurement opportunities are, some of the estates issues, data protection, G.D.P.R. (General Data Protection Regulations), and a number of other functions to get it consistent across the piece.
The Deputy of St. John :
Will those support people be police officers or customs officers or fire officers?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
No, they will be civil servants and currently are civil servants. There is no proposal to change their status.
The Deputy of St. John :
Would this have any impact at all on the ability for progression in the service?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
No, not at all, if anything it may enhance it. There will be a single function delivering business support across all 7, at the moment they are individual organisations, where they exist.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
You mentioned procurement. I thought one of the ideas of the new one.gov was to consolidate a lot of these tasks, centralise however many procurement systems, there is about as many databases as we have in the States of Jersey. You mentioned that, how is that going to work and how will that integrate within the central plans for those services?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Of course, you are quite right, there will be centralisation but, of course, each organisation needs to have somebody who can order uniforms or caps or trousers or various bits of kit, whatever that may be. Somebody in the organisation needs to have the understanding and knowledge to be able to then reach into the central procurement system using the right I.T. (information technology) systems.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have got a question about the ongoing discussions with emergency services unions in order to understand any of their concerns or issues with the target operating model. We know we are going to have an adjusted, if that is the right word, target operating model but are those discussions ongoing? Because there are concerns, we have had concerns raised in terms of not just the type of change but the pace and the possible outcomes on the frontline because it is very much a management structure at the moment. What are you doing to reassure those representatives and people they represent?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Sure. One of the things done, and it was only yesterday, as I mentioned earlier, was to have a meeting with representatives of the staff association for the fire service and the ambulance service and it was a very positive and supportive meeting. I got the feeling that they were greatly reassured because there had been some fears about budget cuts or staff cuts and this sort of thing and I was able to reassure them there are no plans in that area whatsoever. The resilience of the service, the provision of their service was absolutely paramount and that is true of the other departments that we have responsibility for as well. We have the Government Plan coming forward with some very good, laudable ambitions. None of them are achievable unless we maintain this Island as a safe place to live, work and visit. That is down to the departments which I have political responsibility for so I have to make sure that that resilience remains in place. As I said, the meeting yesterday was a very good meeting and I think they got a lot of reassurance because a lot of rumours get passed around and they gain credence. I think we were able to put a lot of them to bed. As I said, I have agreed to meet with them, or offered to meet with them at least once a month over the next 2 or 3 months while these reviews are being undertaken and developed so that they have a full part to play in those service reviews. I think the guys at the front line know more about these services than many of us.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am reassured that you are looking after the staff and their anxiety, but I am wondering if you can outline to us what the rationale was behind the integration of ambulance and fire service, and what the business plan for that is.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, what we are trying to do is divert opportunities to improve the efficiency, effectiveness of all of our services while making sure that they are properly resourced. That is why it has all come about. Some of the rumours, if you like, or the speculation is that we are looking at having paramedics acting as firefighters and firefighters acting as paramedics. Nothing could be further from the truth because these specialisms have to
The Deputy of St. John :
I think that was drawn from a statement you made in the Assembly about the relationship between paramedics and firefighters, that they would be able to support one another and you could have ambulance paramedics perhaps involved in rescues.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely, but if we go back
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Well, not the fire service, they would still be the ambulance service but just going back a relatively short time ago ambulance staff were doing training in cliff rescue, boat rescue, R.T.C. (Road Traffic Collison) situations, developing their skills so that they can support their colleagues in the fire service in situations like that. Surely that is what we want? We want all of these services to support one another for the benefit and protection of the Island community.
The Deputy of St. John :
I would say there is an awful lot to agree within that and they do support one another and they do work together.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Exactly.
The Deputy of St. John :
What I am asking is, what is the rationale for amalgamating them?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is to explore the opportunity of more efficiencies, more effectiveness. Co-locating, generic training, sharing vehicles, this is sort of thing which is
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think part of the issue comes from in the business case that you have you mention the model that they use in Dublin, which is a very integrated system between fire and is that the model that you think you are looking at here?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, I am not committing at this stage to any particular model. What I am saying is there are good models out there, Dublin is possibly one, Lincolnshire is another. There are good examples of integration, amalgamation and co-operation. What our model will be I will not speculate on until we have finished our reviews into these services but I know we have got the goodwill of the staff or the staff association after our meeting yesterday to look at the opportunities.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
The key point in governing the I believe that all of the firefighters are trained paramedics before they are firefighters, that says an extra 100 trained paramedics. Training as a paramedic can take between 3 and 5 years, that is a major change if you want that to happen here. If not, then that model really is part of your business plan is somewhat I will not say a false model but perhaps a misplaced model because you are not going to have that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, we are not going to have that. What I am saying is the specialisms of the firefighters and the paramedics and technicians are going to remain but what we are looking for is opportunities where they can support each other in a more effective and positive way.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have one thing to follow on before we see if one was to be cynical - and we do not want to be - one might say that by having firefighters trained to a level they can respond and give some sort of care, it may not be the care that is needed at the time from a trained paramedic but then a box can be ticked to say that response times have improved. Actually the level of specialist care has not improved, or access to it, just the response time of somebody being there. That is a concern because it is not really
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
That is already happening. Firefighters are also trained for first aid.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, but by amalgamating that would become much more of an expectation as an everyday thing, would it not?
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
We are looking at it at a management level. If you are writing rotas, if you are spending your whole day writing rotas you can do it for 2 services. You do not do it for the fire service and say: "Well, that is it for my day."
The Deputy of St. John :
Do they need to be integrated for that to happen?
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, yes, to a level. Yes, it is not about front line. Again, it takes 6 years to train a firefighter, it takes 6 years to train a medical technician, you are not going to merge it. Dublin is an extraordinary situation and we do not know that they are better off with it, but certainly checking that the car battery
is charged and that your vehicle is ready to go, you do not need to be part of one service or the other to do that.
The Deputy of St. John : No, that is correct.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs: There are a lot of synergies.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Can I come in for a moment? We have heard evidence that the ambulance service was in a relatively good place before this process started and, to coin a phrase, we are puzzled to know what is broken that you are trying to fix.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
There is a good example there. In terms of efficiencies we have not had a problem. Our services have performed admirably. To say that the ambulance service is in a good place, if you had gone and visited them you would not say that. It is a horrible building, it was temporary 40 years ago.
The Connétable of St. Helier : I do not mean that
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
No, it is half of it. They needed a new control centre so we have offered them a new integrated control centre and this is going extremely well. They need a new location. If we can look at the new location for both the fire service and the ambulance service they can get an extremely good, very well located building. So co-locating them
The Connétable of St. Helier :
We are talking not so much about where they operate from but the fact that the ambulance is a mobile hospital effectively and when people call for an ambulance after the obvious triage is done at the control room, they do not really want a fire officer turning up, they want a trained medical professional on their doorstep surely.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
That is after triage. The triage may have said: "Well, we can send somebody who is not a medical technician to that particular emergency."
Let me take the example I am actually agreeing with an awful lot of what you are saying in terms of shared services, you know using the same mechanics, using the operational building, using the same
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
The I.T., the ambulance was cut down, the fire services are complaining that their I.T. is not up to scratch, that when they are sent to a location they cannot tell what services are available, that the address is right, that it is up-to-date.
The Minister for Home Affairs: No access to patient records.
The Deputy of St. John :
So we have an example in Lincolnshire which Lincolnshire have provided joint accommodation for police, fire and ambulance but the caveat is that although they share the services they remain separate in relation to their own speciality. Now, there is no reason that we should not share facilities but why do they need to be integrated in a service that is not a baseline medical service and where will we get governance from in relation to the delivery of medical care?
[10:30]
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Medical governance is a concern.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
A couple of things. Most of the fire emergency services in the U.K. now work closely with the ambulance service and co-respond and co-transport. So Lincolnshire is an example of how things can work, as indeed so is Dublin. Most forces in Lincolnshire the ambulance association was talking very positively about how they work and co-respond and co-transport people. Because it does actually not just reduce performance times but does have a better medical outcome because they are getting people trained, firefighters in this case, for medical emergency quicker. I am sure everybody agrees that if we could do that in this Island that would be positive because people want to be treated and made well. The clinical governance is critical and I understand that. The move from ambulance into just Home Affairs is about maintaining, if not improving, the current clinical governance while looking at what other opportunities there are to foster new relationships with the emergency services, the other emergency services, and we are starting to do that. When we met the association yesterday I was able to talk about current clinical governance arrangements. They
are not being jeopardised at all, if anything they will be enhanced and we have had that reassurance from the Medical Director, Rob Sainsbury and from John McInerney. So we reassured the association yesterday that all the clinical governance arrangements are in place, whether it is laundry, whether it is hygiene cleaning, whether it is pharmaceuticals and the relationship with the Chief Pharmacist, all those arrangements are in place. It is not about what is not broken, it is how can we improve and enhance. As public servants I think it is really important we try and do that. So baseline keep as is, I think we could improve the clinical governance arrangements and health and community services, we are very much as one in relation to that. How can we then build and improve the service? So one of those could be co-responding and co-transporting.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
For the viewer this is quite a lot of we have heard conversations have been going on all over the place about the current structure, what I would like to understand is the service delivery. The process, that flowed from when a 999 call is made to the call centre to triage and the decision to go out, because what is absolutely imperative is the right person or team must go for the right reason. Now, the concern is going to be that if it is deemed as the result of probably quite a frantic and a distraught call into 999 that an ambulance is sent out without somebody that has ultimately got first aid skills as opposed to sorry, a fire crew go out with first aid skills as opposed to an ambulance going out with the paramedic skills, which are 2 totally different skills, it is like a bookkeeper to a chartered accountant, how is that going to work? I believe there is going to be some fear that the wrong person goes for the wrong reason, not through any fault of anybody but misunderstanding and communication that could affect the safety of the Island. As the Minister says, that is what is paramount. Can you explain that process to us and make sure that that will not be the case?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
So first of all what may not be known or understood is in 2014, so 5 years ago, Jersey Fire and Rescue Service went off to the U.K. and got themselves trained to a high level in terms of medical emergencies. They then came back and the Jersey Ambulance Service did some more training with a group of firefighters. Then an M.O.U. (Memorandum of Understanding) was signed - way before my time and the Minister's as well - 5 years ago between the 2 services about co-responding. That was done 5 years ago and I appreciate that may be new to you. Wherever you look in relation to where there is co-responding, first and foremost if there is an ambulance available, an ambulance always will be sent. When we looked to refresh our current situation, because we need to look at the M.O.U. and make sure it is fit for purpose and how it has been used or not, first and foremost an ambulance is always sent. If an ambulance is not available, which does happen on the Island, because you will be familiar with limited resource we have in terms of the scale, then what could happen is - and what does happen in other places - a fire crew will be sent who have been trained to use a defibrillator and to a level of medical care, and at the same time an ambulance resource
will be despatched when they become available, if they are tied up. So the member of the public who requires some medical intervention will get a uniformed service arrive with a level of medical intervention, as opposed to nobody turning up until the ambulance crew comes free. The evidence in the U.K. is that that does generate a better medical outcome because the ambulance will come but it will arrive later. Does that makes sense?
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I do understand that. The fear is that the triage in the call centre will say: "This person has got a dislocated eyelash, therefore you only need to send out somebody with first aid training as opposed to a full paramedic." Now, they could get there and find out that is not the case and the diagnosis is considerably worse, which has a time lag until the ambulance then can come along and that could risk health.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Just to be really clear, clarity in terms of the M.O.U., an ambulance will always be sent but, of course, if it is not available
The Deputy of St. Peter : Ambulance first regardless?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, regardless. Absolutely, regardless of whether it is your example or something much more serious. That is quite clear, an ambulance is always first but, as we all know, there is 2 or 3 ambulances and if there is high demand they are not always available. If there is a delay and that person could benefit from a person with some medical training, that is better than nothing. But the ambulance will always deploy as well.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
To some extent that is a sort of emergency situation but if it becomes the norm, i.e. when these situations arise if the fire brigade can deal with it they can go and deal with it, does that not change the nature of the service itself? Does that not have some sort of risk linked to it because the clinical governance has changed from sending that mobile hospital as a matter of course to sending somebody who is trained to a certain level and may need the mobile hospital a bit later on. Could that not lengthen the time before the care is given?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I would not happen because there is a fairly clear arrangement that an ambulance will always be despatched to an ambulance call. The key question that I would suggest you need to ask is, is the ambulance always available as soon as that 999 call comes in. I think we all know because of demand and geography that they are not always immediately available.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Is the solution not to have more ambulances?
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Can I ask a question on that one? You can obviously never have a situation where an ambulance is available 100 per cent of the time in every single eventuality, that is unrealistic. You would need more ambulances than people. However, is there a study being taken to make sure that there are enough ambulances to satisfy like 95, 99 per cent of circumstances so we can be reassured of that?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Yes, and certainly that work has been done. We look at performance data and as part of the service review we are looking at that as well at the moment. You will often see an ambulance stationary at Bel Royal for example or somewhere else.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
What is an acceptable level of service do you think for ambulances to be available for emergencies?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Well, there is target response times. I do not know off the top my head, I think it is I can get you them. There are set response times, 8 minutes for a red one which is the most critical medical emergency and then so on, and the same for fire.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I think we are very, very lucky over here with the response times for our ambulances.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Absolutely, yes.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I think there is a really key point there, though, about those response times because if it is a red response, or it turns out to be when you arrive, and somebody has responded which is a firefighter, you can still say it has responded. So response times will go up if you get a firefighter. But again I go back to my point, it is not necessarily the right type of care and if we are sending more and more fire staff to cases as a matter of course, surely is that not a case that we need more ambulance staff and could this not be an excuse to not employ ambulances that we need because response times will look good?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
This is not about looking good, it is about providing the best possible service we can offer to the public. If we got to a situation where we found that ambulances were not available as regularly and as often as they were needed then we would have to reconsider the resources. The Director General stressed, and I think he said it twice, it is always an ambulance who will respond to a medical situation. If there is going to be a delay better to send someone who has significant medical knowledge rather than nobody at all until the ambulance can get there. That cannot be an unreasonable position. It is not about making the ambulance service look better because of response times or the department looking better or the Minister looking better, it is a matter of providing the services that the Island needs, expects and deserves.
The Deputy of St. John :
We are getting very wrapped up in this. I wonder if we should cut to the chase and ask how much we are going to save? What are the financial implications going to be?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have stressed a number of times in the States with questions in the States, with statements I have made in the States, it is not about saving money, it is about providing a better service, the best service that we can, for the right amount of money. If we need to spend more money you will not find me hanging about and not asking for it because I will be. We have to provide that service. As I said earlier, the whole of the Government Plan, the whole of the structure of the Island in many ways, depends on having an excellent emergency service provision. That is what we have to make sure of, because if we do not have that a lot of the way we spend our lives goes. It has to be a great place to live, a safe place to live, work and visit and if it is not then our economy goes down the drain as well.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
So we can say that the £1.3 million of cuts in the last 3 years have ended now and we can look forward to those not happening any more and maintaining or even improving the level of funding for our emergency services?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, I will say that because I take no responsibility - well, I must take some because I was in the States, a lot of us were, but I did not have the direct responsibility for the last Medium Financial Plan which did take money out of the frontline services. There is no question about that. I give credit to them, their management and the staff, the frontline staff who did amazingly when you think of the last survey that was done, particularly I am thinking of the police one the other day, people feel safer on the streets now than they did 3 or 4 years ago. I think that is great. Despite all the difficulties we know the police have had, they have responded and they have done things in a different way and the public have been reassured. I pay great tribute to them. I pay tribute to the fire service, ambulance service and indeed the border force as well, the customs and immigration. When you see the fire we had in Charing Cross next to the town hall a couple of weeks ago, the response was amazing. The result was amazing. No one hurt, no other building expect the one where the fire started damaged. We had, I think it was, 3 fire appliances plus another there, everyone who was on duty was down there. It was not a huge fire but it was a difficult one to deal with. But the guys who were off duty, and the on call guys, came in to the fire station to back up in case there was another incident. You know, these guys are first class.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I know we have asked a lot on this but there was a couple of really important questions that need to be asked with regard to this increased role of the fire service in perhaps responding to medical emergencies. Would there be any insurance implications for fire and rescue staff because they go into another field? Paramedics are very highly trained and have specific insurance for what they do and we have heard how well they work together in a particular team and have a sixth sense for what is going on because they are so skilled, will there be any insurance implications for fire staff?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
So part of the service review we are doing at the moment will look at the implications of things like refresher training, insurance but I will go back to the fact that 5 years ago they were trained and the ambulance service trained them, and the M.O.U. signed around joint co-responding. We are reviewing that, we are looking at whether the insurance was dealt with then or not. I would be surprised if it was not but the service review will drill down into all that.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
First aid and that sort of training get deskilled very quickly so have they been reskilled in those 5 years?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I have asked the question how often is the refresher training. Going back of the question from Deputy Pointon, there may be increased costs because we may be looking at greater training implications here. That is fine if, as the Minister said, it delivers a better service to Islanders.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I cannot go into detail but it is a bit more than first aid that the firefighters provide. They are fully trained first responders and trained by the ambulance service.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I am emphasising the point about the level of skills that need to maintained as well.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
On the insurance one, which is what I got involved with with damages law that went through whenever it was, a couple of months ago, what could happen - and I hear exactly what you are saying, ambulance goes first - in a situation where there is not an ambulance that goes first then somebody with - I am not maligning the skills - the lesser skills, a level of skills, goes there and through no fault of that person he goes along to do something that he is not skilled to do and makes a mistake, then we have a suing situation, the damages law, that comes in. I would just like to know that that has been fed into insurances within the Island, that we are covered for that because that is an eventuality and I know we are maxed out on that.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
This is nothing new. If you have a car crash anybody can arrive first, sometimes the police arrive first and if there is somebody who needs C.P.R. (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) they are going to do it. If the fire service
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Yes, but if we formalise the service in a court of law
[10:45]
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
That has been the case for years. It has been formalised.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
What is new is the realisation that we are totally underinsured and I want to make sure that is not a situation going forwards.
Director General, Justice:
That is noted and as part of the review we are looking at that issue.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
We have been talking about resources, particularly the ambulance service, and obviously this whole matter relates to police numbers, which is a matter of great public interest. There have been a number of media reports about a sense in the Island that there are not enough police officers available. I think one ex-officer said that the new operating model leads to occasions when the whole Island is covered by as few as 4 officers on a shift. Then on 26th March we had a major concern about speeding around the Island and of course a lot of the speeding concerns are not around daytime when it is difficult to speed anyway but in the small hours, which is a time when not many officers are available and you have the racers doing the rounds of parishes. I quote from a St. Helier resident who says even when the police headquarters was on Rouge Bouillon there was a lot of speeding on the Ring Road at night and, I quote: "If the police cannot be bothered policing it is not really up to the poor honoraries to do it for them." St. Ouen 's Chef de Police said the parish had sought help from the States Police to stop speeding at its worst in the early hours of the morning but it had found support limited. This is a quote: "They are not interested and say it is a parish problem." This is not the Chef de Police, this is a resident saying this. "This should be addressed by the Honorary Police" according to the police. He said the honoraries do not have the manpower or the resources. I think this is the concern that - this does not happen with ambulance of course because there is not a voluntary sector that can do the work - because we have the Honorary Police and we are very proud of what they do and to pick up the Minister's example, they were down at York Street helping out with the fire when that took place a few weeks ago. We have the Honorary Police and I think there is a feeling not just in St. Helier but across the Island that they are being called upon to do core duties which should be being performed by trained officers, particularly, as I said, attending to something like speeding in the small hours when you are not really going to get the Honorary Police out of the bed, they have to go to work in the morning, you want a police shift contingent to be dealing with that sort of problem.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
I would just like to answer about volunteers. Of course the fire services have their volunteers and we have central ambulance which also interestingly the 3 services have a volunteer side. As to that, I understand that there has been a bid in the next year's budget for an additional 10 police officers which we are supporting.
The Connétable of St. Helier : That is very good to hear.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
Which I hope you will be supporting when it comes to the Assembly.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
I think just to pick up the honorary point, I accept there are voluntary or third sector arms of all the services that we do on the Island, which is a great thing but what we are not seeing is - and that is for historical reasons - public statements that try to push the responsibility of certain core functions of the police on to that voluntary service. You will never hear the ambulance service saying that St. John 's Ambulance should be doing more work, should be recruiting better, but we are hearing that, including from the Minister, about the honoraries should be recruiting more. Of course, we all know the difficulties the Honorary Police face in recruitment.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not think I said we should be recruiting more, what I said was I do not think we should blame the States of Jersey Police for our difficulties in recruiting, which is something totally different. I am also surprised to hear that someone has been told that the States of Jersey Police do not want to do speed checks, because they do do speed checks. I saw one the other night doing a speed check on St. Clement 's Coast Road and I am sure if I had gone around to other parishes I would have found in fact, a week or 2 ago there was an absolute blitz on speeding. Speeding problems are not exclusive to St. Helier . When I say "problems", some are problems, some are perceived problems because some of our narrow roads have a 30 mile an hour limit, if you have a car travelling at 30 miles an hour it can seem like 40, 50 or 60 because you are very close to it. I would be surprised if the States of Jersey Police have said they are not going to carry out speed checks or not help to support the parishes when there are issues. If that is the case, I think I need to ask about it. I would just like a little more evidence of this thing being said because I do see States of Jersey Police out doing speed checks in my parish. Fortunately I have not been caught in one yet, probably because I behave myself when I am driving.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Speeding is just one example. I could give another example, I know that a lot of the resources of the police are tied up with the evening economy, particularly at the weekends. A lot of residents in urban areas, not necessarily St. Helier but any urban area, will suffer from anti-social behaviour in a street. Even something like a noisy party. If there is a noisy party at 2 in the morning, which happens, and disturbs hundreds of people, people do ring up the States of Jersey Police and they are told that there are not resources to deal with that. I think that is the kind of job again, is it fair to ask the Honorary Police to go and break up a noisy party when that really should still be seen as a core function of the States of Jersey Police.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is a function of the States of Jersey Police but it also is a function, let us be honest, of the Honorary Police as well. They are sworn police officers and have exactly the powers, in some cases more powers, than the professional police. It is my understanding that if the duty Centenier wishes not to be disturbed after 12 o'clock that is perfectly acceptable by the States of Jersey Police, he notifies them and they operate accordingly. If they do not have the resources to deal with a noisy party from time to time it has to be accepted occasionally that could happen because you do not know what else is going on in other places in the Island. The community model, if you like, is something that is very close to the heart of the senior management team in the States of Jersey Police and the Jersey Police Authority and that is why they have made a robust bid for 10 new officers to help support the community policing model. That is why the Assistant Minister and I are supporting that bid and hopefully we will achieve that. It might help the sort of situation that you are talking about. You also spoke that there were occasions when - I think you said - there were 4 policemen available. There could be - I cannot talk about operational matters - an occasion where there are 4 officers on the beat, either in a car or walking around town. At 3.00 or 4.00 a.m. on a Wednesday morning, how many police officers do you need walking around town? You have to be realistic. You know as well as I do that on a Friday night in town between 10.00 p.m. and 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning you need a bit more than that and there are more than that. So the resources are deployed depending on the need at that particular time. Julian, as a former police officer, might want to add something.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
My comment will be that they are intelligence led so they will get feedback from other States departments or other government departments in the community and so in relation to speeding they will deploy their speed checks - and you are right, they still do speeding checks and they train the honoraries in speeding - and they will deploy where the demand is. Speeding is always in my 30-odd years in policing dog mess, litter and speeding are the 3 things that will always come up in parish meetings. It is difficult to avoid because it does impact on individuals who live close to the road. I am confident that the police absolutely have an intelligence-led approach and do do speeding checks.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
That is interesting and I was going to come on to litter because it may seem like a relatively minor thing but it is another thing, as you just said, that really concerns the public. There is a huge financial burden on the parishes and on the States in terms of dealing with litter and now we are getting more concerned about our effect on the wider climate. Clearly there is a wider impact on the global community if our Island produces, for example, lots of cigarette butts that are being washed into the sea. Certainly my team, in the past you know, if we could have support from the States of Jersey Police, for example, to actually stop people who litter, it may sound like a very minor thing, but when did a States of Jersey Police officer last stop somebody throwing away a cigarette in the street. That would send a very powerful message that littering is not acceptable. I know there are some countries where you will get prosecuted if you do that. Is that something the force would be willing to take on board?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
I had a similar question in the previous government by this panel in relation to exactly that. My response then and remains now is that I would like to think where police officers do see people littering right in front of them they should absolutely deal with it and they can deal with it. But fundamentally in terms of broader resources trying to deal with what is a societal problem in terms of discarding litter, whether it is cigarette butts or plastics or anything, that is a much bigger issue. When the police are dealing with child abuse, domestic abuse, vulnerable old people, mental health issues, as well as anti-social behaviour and violence then my response is the Island I am sure would want their professional paid police to deal with those really challenging issues and hope collectively with the Honorary Police and society we
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Yes, but there is a counterargument, certainly in New York had a horrendous crime rate and the then Mayor of New York started tackling small things like
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Yes, zero tolerance, yes.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
I think the kind of person who litters, the kind of person who rides a bicycle dangerously through St. Helier , is also going to be a person who drives dangerously and who knows what else. It does seem to me that even if it was once a year that the States of Jersey Police would join with the Honorary Police and have a campaign against litter, for example, or other perceived minor problems they would have a much bigger payback.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I do not know if you recall but this actually did happen probably a couple of years ago where the Honorary Police effectively attempted to have a purge on littering and dog fouling. The problem is when a policeman is around or even when there are people around, people pick up their dog mess and they do not drop their litter. That is part of the problem, it is catching them in the act.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Can I just ask, the bottom line really being you say there is another 10 police officers bid for, over the last 10 years police numbers have gone from 245 to 190 despite a population increase of 10,000. Do you believe there are enough police officers to do the job?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It seems to be. The level of crime keeps going down. There was a slight blip last year but in the first 2 or 3 months of this year we have seen a further decrease in overall crime. As I mentioned earlier, the survey that the States do regularly show increased confidence in safety and police responses, which is good and a great credit to them and to the Honorary Police. The style of policing has changed, a lot of it now is about cybercrime and this sort of thing and financial crime, which does not require bobbies out on the beat. The eyes and ears of the police have changed over the last couple of decades with C.C.T.V. (closed circuit television) covering most of the town so they are able to respond to particular incidents rather than go around looking for issues. As I said, we can all make a judgment that we should have 220, 240, 190 but the reality is it is the professionals at the coalface in the Jersey Police Authority who have to come to me and then I have to come to you to make a robust business case of the numbers and the sort of numbers that they want. We have 190 current police officers but a lot of investigation work is done by civilians working in the financial crime unit and so on. We must not get too fixated by numbers, it is what they are achieving. I think it is 24 crimes per 1,000 people in Jersey compared to 80-odd in the United Kingdom. I know we are talking about 2 different jurisdictions but it does give you some idea of the level of
The Deputy of St. John :
One of the things that you have offered in the past to save police time has been the introduction of smarter mobile devices. This is a remark from a police officer: "Smarter mobile devices do not substitute for pastoral policing." In other words, face-to-face contact with a police officer on a fairly regularly basis is very important in terms of maintaining a relationship on the one hand but also the effectiveness of the police force.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, and that is why the Constables are very keen on the community policing model where police officers are seen from time to time in the parishes, around the estates and so on, but not just the States of Jersey Police, the Honorary Police as well. The States of Jersey Police also go to schools and youth clubs to develop relationships in that way and, indeed, the Honorary Police do as well. I do not disagree with that. We are talking about 2 different things with the tablets and the way that they can do these things. It means they can be out a lot more, they are not having to come back when they have had an incident to write up reports and so on, they can still be out there talking to the public.
[11:00]
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
It has been proven they are spending more time out and about and less time at the station. When I first came here in July 2017, staff were having to go back to the station every time to write a report, get on the computer, now they are staying out. Therefore they are doing contrary to that quote. They are able to be doing face-to-face interaction with members of the public with the device, so that has been proven and it is much better that way.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Are there any specific areas that you think might need to be targeted with more face-to-face police? Particularly the youth areas in St. Helier and other urban areas, Les Quennevais and so on, where there are specific groups, for whatever reason, that may need intervention and that intervention early on, let us be frank, is going to save not only the discomfort and the unhappiness that was created from certain behaviours but an absolute fortune from the prison service in the long term. Do you have any plans to target those areas.
The Assistant Minister for Home Affairs:
There is a massive plan for the whole criminal justice sector completely and to take care of youth justice.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
One of the main principles of the Justice and Home Affairs Department is early intervention and for exactly the reasons you describe. I was chatting to the police yesterday and Operation Porter that some of you may be familiar with over the last year, that is now embedded and is working very well with children and young people, the Educational Skills Department and the Home Affairs Department with the police and that is starting to identify people much earlier. As the Assistant Minister mentioned, a youth justice review has just come out and we are looking at that, what does that mean for the Island, changing the age of criminal responsibility, making youth courts more youth friendly, it is more a welfare issue for those people who get in trouble at a young age, not necessarily a criminal matter. We know the parish halls are integral to that as well. So there is a lot of focus in relation to early intervention and prevention.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
This is very much the focus of Project Horizon that the States of Jersey Police developed in the community system, which is about early intervention. As Julian said earlier, intelligence-led policing to try and stop crime before it happens rather than solve crime after it has happened.
Are we still sending Christmas cards to the repeat offenders?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
It is one of a number of tactics that we engage in.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Can I move to the joint control room? What feedback have you had, Minister, from frontline staff about the operation of it?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am told it has been very effective and the staff are very happy, particularly the ones who have moved in from the old ambulance station think the facilities are much improved and staff are happy. If staff are happy then they are going to provide a better service, are they not?
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Are you aware of any teething problems that needed addressing?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am not aware of any but clearly you might be.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
There have been one or 2, as you would expect with any move. For example, we were there yesterday and a very small example that is important to staff around having access to a microwave and being able to get meals cooked quickly. That has been resolved now. So there are some minor teething issues but we are getting positive feedback and we have been to speak to the staff and the environment is a much better working environment for those staff who have moved.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
A couple of things that perhaps we could cover quite quickly. From the last hearing, I think it was the last hearing, explaining the legislation of the C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) recommendation on governance of the States of Jersey Police is likely to be brought forward by the end of the year. What progress has been made and what consultation has there been with the C. and A.G. in drafting the proposals?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Our policy officer has had meetings with the Comptroller and Auditor General to clarify everything and say how we are responding because, you know, the principle was and still is that we accept
totally all of the recommendations. A team is being put together, which I think will be ready by the end of the month, which will include officers from Home Affairs, from our policy unit, the police authority and the law officers to develop the recommendations for me for the legislation. Once those have been done and approved the amendments to the law will be drafted and lodged in the States.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
One of the key points was to enhance the role of the police authority.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Absolutely.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
You envisage that is not going to be a problem, that it will be
The Minister for Home Affairs:
No, the police authority are fully supported as I would expect and hope. The direct management line, thick black line, from the police chief to his line manager will be to the police authority and obviously to the Minister. There is no question about that.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We have submitted a full and comprehensive response to that last week.
The Minister for Home Affairs: You have.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Commenting on every recommendation.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Could I go briefly back to the fire service and the location? I have raised this matter before and in the States about the desperate need of more space for Rouge Bouillon primary school. When the States of Jersey Police relocated to their new premises I think the expectation was that there would be the opportunity to get some space and offer it to the primary school and possibly to the wider community as well. Instead what we appear to have seen, and it is only first impressions as you drive past, the blue signs have now changed to red and it would appear that the fire service has expanded into all that lovely extra space. Clearly I think the concern is that that may have happened as a short-term measure but it is really quite an urgent need to give the school more space. Are you
aware of any steps to assist that? Is the fire service in its final location or are you looking at a new location for it?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We want a location for the fire service and the ambulance service which is a joint location ideally for the benefit of both of them. The Assistant Minister said earlier that conditions at the ambulance station in particular are not brilliant, and indeed even in the fire station are not good. The location, however, is pretty good. On the Ring Road, relatively easy access to most parts of the Island quite quickly. We do need to - and we have started work on it - understand exactly what our requirements are for the fire service and the ambulance service. I think they are going to find it difficult to find a better location than where they are. There are discussions that are going to have to be had between ourselves, the fire service, ambulance station and Education as to what the best resolution to this issue and this possible conflict between requirements is for the benefit of both Education and the Home Affairs services. If we are able to relocate, for example, the ambulance service from its current Rouge Bouillon site, it would release the ambulance site for other facilities, presumably housing or whatever. There is a debate, a discussion, to be had. It is very important that we move ahead with that. Julian, I think we are doing the research now?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We are working up a business case at the moment, as the Minister said, in terms of what does the future joint co-location premises look like as well as looking at your concerns and also what is the Children, Young People and Educational Skills Department's strategy around primary schools and schools within St. Helier space. There is a number of key stakeholders clearly in the parish.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Is there a timetable for this? The school, I think, are at the stage of putting buckets under leaking ceilings and they simply do not have the play space that say a primary school in St. Martin has for the children. Many of them come from families that have far less access to space, both internally in their homes and externally. So there is a real critical need to solve the problems at Rouge Bouillon, what is the timetable for your review about co-locating the ambulance and fire service.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
Certainly we are talking about a number of weeks as opposed to months. Part of those next number of weeks will be full engagement with Director General Mark Rogers in relation to the Safer School Strategy, which will pick up those concerns as well.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think that is important but it does concern me I do not quite understand the correlation between a leaking roof in the current building and expanding it to another old building. I mean, if the roof is leaking it needs to be fixed whether they move or not.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
That was just an example of how rundown the building is but I think the key point is a lack of space, the lack of access to open space and, indeed, the question mark about whether it is the best position for a primary school on the Ring Road and on a busy roundabout anyway.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, because that school over the years has expanded tremendously. It is now, by a long way, our largest primary school. Whether it is appropriate for it to be there at all is something which Education needs to think about as well. But then again it is finding somewhere else, is it not?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I have got a question, Minister, about the Probation Board. In the last hearing your full membership was withdrawn. Can you update us on what type of membership yourself and the Assistant Minister have on the board?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I have invited, as has the Chief Minister, attendance. We are entitled to attend the Probation Board meetings.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
What is the explanation for that change?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It was not a change, that has been the position since, I think, 1995 when politicians were members of the Probation Board.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Perhaps what I am thinking is with the increased with the current situation with probation it may have been sensible for you to be more involved there.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
That is not in my gift. What is important is that we have a very good relationship, and the department has a very good relationship now with the probation board and the new Chief Probation Officer. I mean, he has expressed his views and we respect that. Also we are moving ahead quite positively
with the independent review of the service and the possible integration, if you like, with the offender management team, in other words with the prison as well, what the relationship there could be. So the terms of reference for the review have been agreed with myself, the department and the Probation Board I understand and now we are looking to agree who should carry out that review. There are a couple of authorities that we are looking at. We are getting quite close to an agreement on that. It might be a combination of 2 authorities, to bring them in later this year possibly. Julian?
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: If not sooner, yes.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Yes, later this year.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: Sometime this year.
The Deputy of St. John :
When you say 2 authorities, will they be authorities operating probation services or ?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
They will be authorities which have probation services, yes.
The Deputy of St. John :
Right, and then there will be authorities that have not outsourced their probation service.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely correct. It will not be the United Kingdom.
The Deputy of St. John :
Because the outsourced probation service in the United Kingdom is an absolute mess.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Well, England and Wales.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We would agree with that, absolutely, which is why we are not
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, we would not argue with that.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs: There are other jurisdictions.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It does not meant the inspectorate is bad but I think it would be more sensitive to look elsewhere.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Given the new Chief Probation Officer's clear views, which have been expressed publicly as well, what discussions have you had regards the inclusion in the target operating model given there is a change to the target operating model now? What discussion are you having as to where he will fit?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I think we need to have the review undertaken before we can say what the relationship would be. We need to have the review and agree a way forward after the review has taken place. If the review says: "No, everything is absolutely perfect, you do not need political oversight, you do not need democratic accountability in the probation service as you do with all the other services that the States provide and it is okay" then, fine, nothing will change. However, if they say these things should be in place, if they say there should be more co-operation, integration and support for prisoners with the prison service then we might have to look at some changes. I am not going to pre-empt anything.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Is there a timetable for the review?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
We have not decided who will be undertaking the review so as soon as that is agreed we will then speak to these authorities and have to discuss with them their timetable, the availability of their staff and so on. But it would be really good if we could get this done and dusted this year in fairness to all of the staff at probation who, you know, like everybody else in the public sector have been suffering from some uncertainty.
The Deputy of St. John :
As you know, we are very happy for a review to take place. In fact applaud that fact. We are wondering whether we can have sight of the terms and conditions before the review date.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Terms of reference, I do not see why not. It will become a public document. I think initially in confidence but as soon as it is a public document then that is no problem.
Director General, Justice and Home Affairs:
We drafted it, it has gone to the probation service and then it has gone to the Probation Board to have a look at that and there has been toing and froing, as you can imagine, and we now have an agreement on the terms of reference which the Minister has also agreed. The Chief Probation Officer and myself are now talking about which authorities. They have suggested one and I have suggested one and I then proposed why do we not bring them together so that pleases both parties. We are having some very sensible conversations around this.
[11:15]
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is the progressing much better than I thought it might have done to be honest with you.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Well, we are an hour and 10 minutes before we mention the dreaded
The Deputy of St. Peter : Shall we use the Brexit word?
Deputy R.J. Ward : The B word, yes.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
There are thousands of questions, nobody really knows, we all accept that, is there anything new that we should know about since the last hearing that could have an impact on the Island, vis-à-vis Brexit? Or not the Island, your responsibilities within the Island. Is there anything new we should know about?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Not really. The settled status scheme is progressing well, we have now 3,400 applicants which is about 70 per cent of what we believe is the number. We anticipate there will be up to 20,000 people who could be
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I think that has doubled since you were asked in the Assembly, has it not? So it was about 1,700, was it not, when you were asked?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It was last time we spoke, yes. It is now that is what we expected. We expected it to be quite quick at the beginning, it will probably slow down now because Brexit has been delayed and then it will speed up again once Brexit happens and then getting towards the end of next year when the settled status scheme has to be completed.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
On that subject, I know there was an awareness campaign, although I have not seen it but there again I am not looking for it in my day-to-day life. Can you update on that campaign, how that has changed given the fact that Brexit is potentially pushed back until the autumn and the awareness of that?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I was going to say perhaps we need to swap and get Luke in.
Acting Director, Customs and Immigration:
Good morning, Luke Goodard, Customs and Immigration Acting Director for all things Brexit.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
How is the settlement scheme going, I suppose, effectively, and the campaign to get people to be aware?
Acting Director, Customs and Immigration:
As the Minister said, it is going well, we have good numbers, we are pushing through the numbers. Of the 3,400 that have applied, 650 have been granted settled status, 150 pre-settled status, we have had no refusals and we are engaging quite closely with people to ensure that where we can we can assist people if they need some help. What I would say is that a lot of it is, I think, a mental impression of people in terms of the Brexit day. It, in fact, has no bearing on how the settlement scheme will progress. At the moment we know it will remain open until the end of next year. We do not yet have an indication that if Brexit day is delayed until the end of October that there will be a further increase to the implementation period into 2021. That may happen but at the moment we are working on the end of next year and I am comfortable that we are working at a pace which will allow us to gather the applications from all those that are necessary. In terms of the public communications that we have made, it was very heavily pushed out over the first couple of months of this year, which has probably had the effect that we wanted to gain awareness and make sure
that we have the numbers we have at the moment. The fact that it is over such a long period I imagine the numbers will decrease in the interim period, probably in the next year or so, until if we do end up with an implementation period after a deal through until the end of next year that those last few months of the year are likely to bring a number of applications. The downtime, if you like, we were going to use to ensure that we deal with those that may be more difficult get to or have no awareness of the need for them to apply. Particularly what we are referring to is vulnerable people, those who maybe have not got great I.T. skills, the infirm or those that are elderly and unable to get to the appointments. We are going to go out to see them as opposed to them coming to see us. So we are going to use that period as best we can. Clearly reminders on public communications as well to ensure that the message is not lost as many Brexit messages are because of the saturation that there has been.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
I saw one of your posters on a bus the other day. Can I ask, it is a very delicate situation, I think, the settlement scheme, for our community and you have a very delicate balance in getting people to apply and still having them welcome because it is a separation of a group of our society. Are you finding any I do not want you really to quantify it but do you have any comments on that process that you may be getting feedback like: "I do not know why I should be having to do this" and so on. How is that going? Are people generally accepting and okay? Are your officers having any delicate conversations that they are reporting? Obviously you cannot talk about individual cases.
Acting Director, Customs and Immigration:
I think the balance is as I would expect it. The positive news is that we have feedback given on the application process, the online form. That is currently at 92 per cent positive, which is really good, I am very pleased about that. That is of the 3,400 I think we have had about almost half, 1,600 have taken part in that feedback scheme. That is a large number to give us that kind of positive feedback. Clearly within that there are some that are aggravated that they have to go through a process in order to remain here and I think we have to be sympathetic to that. The only message we can give back to those few people who have come to us by email and through the phone saying they do not understand why they have to do this, why should they have to go through a system just to remain where they have been living for potentially the best part of their life, we can only emphasise that this is being done in order to assist those people to remain. It is completely understandable that people should not have their head around a piece of legislation that is massively different to anything they would have understood before. It is tough enough for those living and working with the Brexit legislation to understand it, let alone those members of the public that are affected by it. So we are trying to make it clear that it is a useful piece of legislation, something to assist those people, not make it a burden for them.
It is good that we did not charge for that. Is the public protection unit being used how are you identifying vulnerable people as well? It must be an unenviable job. It is a very difficult thing to do. Are you finding that working, you are getting out there, you are
Acting Director, Customs and Immigration:
We have had some consultation with the all the parish secretaries were invited to one of the meetings last month and at the time the vulnerable people that we were being referred to were more to do with contingency concerns of a no deal Brexit, to do with the availability for low-income families to have access to food and medicines but, in fact, slightly different to the vulnerable people in terms of the settlement scheme. Nevertheless it is a point of contact and a conduit to be able to get into the parishes. The consuls are a great source for us to be able to speak to. We have had regular meetings with those families that the Polish Consul identified, to give assurances that we are there to assist any that they come across that have difficulty in coming to us. In terms of getting into the nitty-gritty of it, as I said, this is something we are going to be working on probably from this summer onwards through to next summer to really try and get to those more difficult areas where we will probably be speaking to the public protection unit you are talking about. We have already been engaging with the prison and some of the local charities, Caritas, to make sure we can get into those areas where they are aware of those people who may not understand the requirements. We are, at the moment, building the foundation of that and we will be getting into it operationally during the summer time.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
As the Deputy of St. Peter was saying, the exit or no deal exit has diminished a bit but we do not know where we are going to end up. It has all gone very quiet, has it not?
Deputy R.J. Ward :
If they end up remaining I suppose this is a huge amount of work for absolutely nothing.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Where we will be at the end of October, who knows. But work still has to be done.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
You would be a brave man to put a bet on it.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
But the work has to be done. I commended last time and I commend again the work that Luke and his colleagues have done, all the staff at Customs and Immigration, but we have to continue looking
at our laws, looking at our regulations, our practices and procedures to make sure that our immigration rules and laws are aligned with those of the United Kingdom. That all has to happen whether there is a deal or no deal. Almost even if there is not a Brexit.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That brings us nicely on to your question.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
This is a very simple question for you, you will answer, yes, Luke. The CAESAR freight management system upgrade complete and now fully operational?
Acting Director, Customs and Immigration: Yes.
The Deputy of St. Peter : Thank you very much.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
That was quicker than I thought. I have just a few general questions. The feedback that you received in relation to the smoking ban within the prison, what has the feedback been like and has there been any consequences as a result of the decision?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Yes, one amazing consequence, which shocked me, surprised me and delighted me. There were 7 prison officers who were smokers who took advantage of the opportunity to go to the Help to Quit team and have given up smoking. That is terrific news. What the prison governor was telling me was that there are some prisoners who had difficulty but they are being helped. There is a better atmosphere at the prison he tells me for being smoke free but also another side effect, which perhaps nobody anticipated, there has been a great take up of healthy food options at the prison. There is a mindset which is changing and that is very pleasing. I find the whole thing particularly positive. I was very cynical when it was first announced it was going to happen, being a former smoker myself I remember what it was like to give it up.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
I am with you, I find it quite extraordinary that everybody has given up smoking and behaviour is still rationale. I have never met a rational ex-smoker in the early stages of giving up, so it is quite difficult to believe that.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
It is too early to talk about health gains and things like that but it seems to have been pretty positive.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Are there any key pieces of work coming through in the next few months and so on that you feel we should be aware of, that you may be looking at in the coming weeks and months before the next hearing. We know there are a couple of things coming to the Assembly regards explosives and we have got comments that are published on that. Anything else that you consider that we should be aware of?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
There is something which I had not planned to mention today but I think you may as well know, it is something that the Assistant Minister and I are interested in is relating to sexual offences and the way that the accused are named after they are charged. We are wondering if that is a reasonable thing to happen because if you are found not guilty or if charges are withdrawn, or if the accuser decides they did not do it anyway Cliff Richard is an example. Those individuals can have their lives ruined, they can lose friends, difficult to get jobs. We have heard examples, not in Jersey but in other places where teachers have lost their careers because of false accusations made. So we have asked our policy unit to have a look and come to us with some ideas of whether it would be appropriate for people charged with sexual offences not to be identified until they have been found guilty. I recognise there are other sides to that, there are counterarguments to that where you have people who are charged and then named and then other potential victims come forward and say: "He or she did that to me as well." So there is a balance but it is something which I have asked the policy unit to look at on our behalf and we will give that consideration and share our thoughts with you when that comes forward. I had not planned to talk about that today but I do not think there is any reason why not.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
We look forward to receiving that. Have we got time for one more?
The Minister for Home Affairs: It is early days.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
Can I just go off piste, it is not planned, just in the Evening Post last night there was a very interesting article with a young Vingtenier in St. Martin , it was effectively a cry for help, encouraging people to join the Honorary Police. We have already mentioned the Honorary Police and it was a very good article. What can be done or what can you do in order to promote - she uses the word the stigma of the honoraries - the honoraries, which is fantastic, I did it for a couple of years, and to regenerate this wonderful service that supports our community?
The Minister for Home Affairs:
I am disappointed there has been such negative comments. I will be honest with you, I have been a Constable for about 10 years and the word "stigma" I have never thought about the stigma. We have 2 former honorary policemen here, or 3. I have never
The Deputy of St. Peter : I was not very good.
[11:30]
The Minister for Home Affairs:
So I have been involved in the Honorary Police for a long time and it is not a stigma. The numbers throughout the parishes are a bit down, more in some parishes than others and there can be specific reasons for that, why a particular parish might be having certain difficulties, but certainly in the parishes which are down what the police will say is it is not so much the number you have, as for the States police, it is what they do, what they contribute.
The Deputy of St. Peter :
It is the quality in St. Brelade .
The Minister for Home Affairs:
The quality in St. Brelade , St. Clement and I am sure other places as well. While we would all like to have more, what we need is more who are prepared to serve as well as those who are currently in. The Honorary Police Association are planning an advertising campaign later in the year, online campaign, videos, to encourage more people to join. But in some ways the sort of publicity that it has been having does make people think about it perhaps: "Should I be volunteering?" I know St. Saviour had a problem a few years ago with Centeniers and got fined quite heavily. I know St. Clement got 2 excellent police officers out of that because they thought: "We want to come and help" and that was great.
The Connétable of St. Helier :
Perhaps you would agree that the change in the States of Jersey Police and their attitude towards the Honorary Police has been quite marked in the last few years and we found that there is a much greater willingness to co-operate on patrols and to work closely with the Honorary Police and even to see membership of the Honorary Police as a good way into becoming a States police officer and that is all very helpful.
The Minister for Home Affairs:
Absolutely right. I commend the States police over the last 9 or 10 years for the work that they have done to engender this spirit with the Honorary Police. As you say, we have one or 2 who would like to become professional police officers in the future and they have been encouraged by the States of Jersey Police to join the Honorary Police to get experience and the training. There is a significant amount of training that the Honorary Police do enjoy.
Deputy R.J. Ward :
Thank you, and that is incredibly satisfying it is exactly 11.30. I would just like to say thank you very much for your time and bring the hearing to a close. Thank you very much.
The Minister for Home Affairs: Thank you.
[11:32]