Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure - 22 January 2019

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Public Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Tuesday, 22nd January 2019

Panel:

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chairman) Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence

Witnesses:

The Minister for Infrastructure

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure

Director General, G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment)

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.

Assistant Director, Solid Waste, G.H.E

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards and Inspector of Motor Traffic, G.H.E. Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E. Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.

[13:33]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chairman):

Right, good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to this quarterly public hearing for the Minister for Infrastructure in the Environment and Housing Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. I will start off by going around the table just introducing ourselves as we cover a considerable number. Starting off with

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence :

Deputy Kirsten Morel , a member of the panel.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Mike Jackson , chairman of the panel.

Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chairman): Constable John Le Maistre, vice-chairman of the panel.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.:

John Littlewood, Finance Director for Department for Infrastructure, Environment and the new G.H.E.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Emma Richardson-Calladine, Recycling Manager.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Hugh Raymond, Deputy Minister for Infrastructure.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director General, G.H.E.:

John Rogers, Director General for Growth, Housing and Environment.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Andy Scate, Group Director for Regulation in G.H.E.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Down the back maybe.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E:

Richard Glover, working for Growth, Housing and Environment.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Chris Sampson, Director of Engineering and Infrastructure for G.H.E.

Assistant Director, Solid Waste, G.H.E.:

Richard Fauvel, Assistant Director, Solid Waste, G.H.E.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you very much indeed. Going swiftly on because we have quite a long programme here so I am going to kick off, Minister, by asking what growth business do you anticipate making in the new Medium Term Financial Plan or Government Plan, as I understand it has now been designated?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Who wants to kick off with this one? John.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. We are currently going through a restructure and part of that restructure has not been signed off yet but that is to bring Growth, Housing and Environment together and what we are trying to do is make it more efficient. There are some challenges there because there are some areas where it is growing but we are trying to make our overall budget less. One of the big challenges and legacies we have got from the previous political leadership was to not have any certainty on waste charges and so there is a deficit still on that that sits within our budget within this current M.T.F.P. (Medium Term Financial Plan). So we are looking at part of the Government Plan, what is the long-term solution for filling that hole again and that is probably the biggest.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.:

Yes, it is £11 million in terms of what was planned in, targeted in, for 2019 and of course the assumption normally is that that rolls forward, so that is the big single issue really.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Our new target operating model is trying to look at making our services at the office as efficient as possible and also trying to get as much cost recovery as possible in those services. There is a lot of cost recovery now. So, for example, the Planning Department make full cost recovery as does D.B.S. (Disclosure and Barring Service) and so various elements of the business are doing that where it is seeing if there is a market here and where we can do that across the board.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Have you got any timescale on the potential for cost recovery in waste, shall we say, for all the kerbside recycling or the kerbside collection side of that and cost recovery because clearly you have done a lot of work? Have you got any plans how that might be implicated?

Director General, G.H.E.:

Well, the big issue we had before was to change the legislation to enable it to happen and having the law changes is a slow burden and a very challenging thing, and if you look at the recent successful States decision to import waste from Alderney is an example of because Andy's team had worked on the law changes prior to that it meant that when it happened it was a very effective thing for us to do quickly. The law changes around waste charging, certainly the law drafting and the laws are ready so if there was a political decision to do that, and I think that is an answer for Kevin and the Council of Ministers, then that could be implemented a lot quicker than last time. So the work has not been wasted. It is there ready.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just going back timescale, have you got a timescale on that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have not got a timescale off the top of my head, no, but, as John said, everything has been done workwise or most of it has been done workwise so that should not be too difficult. Regarding waste charges, I have always been a little bit ambivalent but obviously we have to pay the bills and I am not really 100 per cent in favour of an additional waste charge because people obviously pay their taxes and pay their rents but something like a commercial waste disposal charge, I would not have a problem with that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Which would in turn impinge on the rates, I guess. What I am trying to, I think, establish is what work has been done to achieve this because I am not seeing an end result. I appreciate you have done the work but to get to the £11 million have we got an idea of how we might achieve that realistically?

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think it is going to come out of the Government Plan work that is currently in play so the C.S.P. (Common Strategic Plan) talks about a significant amount of environmental changes for the Island and it is put in at a very high priority, which we welcome, and Kevin and the Minister for the Environment argued strongly around the Council of Ministers that that was the case. The Government Plan is going to build on that and there will have to be a debate at some point around the Council of Ministers that where waste charges fits in and there are, as you are aware, 2 schools of thought, but if you are trying to get behaviour change charging is part of that. It is not the whole thing, it is a carrot and stick, and at the moment it is all carrot and no stick. The timeline is dependent on what comes out of the Government Plan which is being started on now and will be debated this autumn I believe.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The department has been obviously working with the Parishes to increase recycling and they have done an excellent job. Obviously, we have got more work to do on that.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Can I just ask, before going on to the next section, you mentioned a £11 million deficit because of the waste charges? I just wonder is that a real deficit in the sense of you are spending the money it is disappearing, or is it just you expected that to be in there 2 years ago, the law to be changed, and we have kept it in our budget ever since?

Director General, G.H.E.:

In the Medium Term Financial Plan it was agreed that we were going to bring in commercial waste charges so we planned on that. We developed that and then it never got debated in the States. So there is a recognition from Treasury that and that was a cut of our budget. It was not additional income. It was money that we then were not given.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.: Well, our net budget is £11 million lower.

Director General, G.H.E.: Yes.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.: Essentially, so if you are not going to get the income

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That is what I am saying. You have a lower budget build in it.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. We have a lower budget but there is

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Rather than it being a deficit.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.:

So under the Finance Law effectively, if you have not got the income then you cannot spend the money. So within 2018 that was fully funded by a growth bid. There is a partial growth allocation within the 2019 Budget which covers about £4 million of it but there is still £7 million that is going to have to be funded from year end, effectively 2018.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Talking about waste charges, you are talking about commercial waste charges, changing habit, but so will domestic but, Minister, it sounds as though you are against the charging of domestic

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would say more reluctant than against. Obviously, people are suffering at the moment, money is very tight, but we have to pay the bills and obviously it is a big department to run and losing that £11 million, even though it was never there in the first place, so to speak, was a bit of a blow.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is talking from an income point of view but I am talking about changing habit.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Changing habit absolutely.

The Connétable of Grouville :

That is as important as the income in some respects.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, yes. So the team is going to look at recycling but we will be coming on to that later.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So will you revisit that subject of the domestic waste?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That will be revisited at some point, yes.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think it is something with 2 Constables sat opposite me that for a Parish to behave better it has got to spend more money currently and that feels wrong. I think if a Parish was recycling it should be financially incentivised to do that and at the moment the recycling costs - depending on the contract - can cost marginally more money and it has had to go through your Parish system and we have had success with that, Emma, but it has been hard miles, has it not?

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

It is. It is difficult because when you talk to whether it is businesses or members of the public about sustainability measures you talk about energy, you talk about water. Any measures that they take to make energy or water savings will also save them financially but, as John said, when you talk about waste and doing the right thing, separating the waste into different recycling categories, potentially that is making your life more difficult depending on where you live and it may cost you more money as a business and it should not. Those should really go arm in arm and that is what, hopefully, we will be working towards.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Minister, what challenges, and you touched on it to some extent, if any, does your department face in relation to resources and what the main challenges are of that?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Resources

Director General, G.H.E.:

I am happy to. It is quite difficult at the moment because the Minister is the Minister for Infrastructure and I am G.H.E. but I think all parties of G.H.E., which is 3 departments, that is Department for Economy, the Department for the Environment and D.f.I. (Department for Infrastructure), have all made 23 or 24 per cent savings over the last M.T.F.P., so resources are tight. I think the challenge is we have still got to provide a fantastic service to the public, which I think we do. There are lots of external forces. Currently we have lots of tipping fee income which is C. and D. (construction and demolition) waste from dig outs like the Horizon one and also the waste from the International Finance Centre last year and the year before. So we have got some elements which are good for our income but that none of those you can guarantee. La Collette is filling up and I do not know if you have been down there recently. So there is a big challenge longer term in terms of when C. and D. waste stops going to La Collette and it goes to La Gigoulande, or wherever, and then there is another challenge in terms of our budget. We are in a tight position I think across the board and it is something we have got to manage and bringing it all together hopefully will enable us to do that a bit more sustainably.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So you see that kind of merger as potentially giving the cost saving that you need.

Director General, G.H.E.:

It is going to be tough because there has got to be lines drawn between regulation and operation and because we are so diverse in fact the amount of people who have turned up in this room today I think is a good aspect of how many technical professional people in diverse areas we need to run this significant part of the States of Jersey.

[13:45]

You cannot get one person with that specialism to do 3 people's jobs.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Absolutely. Of course, one aspect of your budget that did go through was the £2 million to join the 2 squares together, the Liberation 75 project. Is it still £2 million that is needed there?

Director General, G.H.E.: No.

Deputy K.F. Morel : No. How much is it?

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think it is now £3 million and again it was a decision of the previous Council of Ministers and it is a very timely decision, because Liberation 75 is only going to happen once and it is probably the last celebration where people who were alive when the liberation happened are going to be still present for that. So it is one of those things that was a decision from a political context and one which we are going to make a big difference to St. Helier and provide a really enhanced position because again Liberation Square I do not know if you have seen it recently but it was 1992 or 1993 it was built and it is tired and needs something doing with it, so I think this change and a connection on to the other piece of land is something that is quite positive.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So this £3 million, is that an extra £1 million? Where is that coming from?

Director General, G.H.E.:

The money is coming from receipts of S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company).

Deputy K.F. Morel :

For just the £1 million or £3 million?

Director General, G.H.E.:

£3 million is my understanding but I need to just check with Chris. Is that correct? Yes, and that is receipts from their profit on other things, so it is a way of giving back to the Island, giving back to St. Helier , which I think is quite a positive thing to do.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So then my last question before me really is well, I have got 2 more. So that is £2 million that was in your budget that you no longer need so can I ask what is happening to that £2 million?

Director General, G.H.E.:

The money was not in the budget. The money was

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Certainly we, as a States Assembly, asked that as a capital allocation.

Director General, G.H.E.:

It did but it never came to us in terms of D.f.I. as a budget. It was never transferred. So Treasury have, fair to say, struggled a bit to get that capital allocation across, John? Would you like to expand or ?

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.:

Yes. In terms of how it has been balanced on there I cannot say I am 100 per cent certain to be honest with you.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think that is a question for Treasury but the money never came. It is not that we have got £2 million we are going to spend on something else. The money did not come.

Finance Director, Department for Infrastructure, Environment and G.H.E.:

A lot of that funding was from unspent capital and I think some of the unspent capital allocations that were to have provided funding for it have been retained within the original capital allocation.

Director General, G.H.E.:

That is right. Yes, so the original plan did not work.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Okay. Just the very last, the squares themselves on Liberation 75, ownership of the squares: do we have certainty over the ownership of the squares once this project is finished?

Director General, G.H.E.: We do. It is quite complicated.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, there is complicated certainty over the squares, yes.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes, I think that is the conclusion there, is they are complicated and we will resolve that by the end, will we not, Chris?

Deputy K.F. Morel : By the end of today?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Weighbridge Place is administered by S.o.J.D.C. and Liberation Square and the road surrounding it are administered by G.H.E.

The Minister for Infrastructure: So we are halfway there already.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We picked up, subsequent to our meeting this morning, that S.o.J.D.C. are receiving rental for some al fresco areas. Would it seem logical that whoever is receiving the rental or receiving income should be responsible for some of the expenditure in the square? Just in a grand finale of things it would seem unreasonable to pass, shall we say, ownership on to either the Parish or a States department who have not got the income.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. Again, I do not want to speak for the Parish but the intent is it would be great if it became a Parish asset because it is in the heart of the Parish. S.o.J.D.C. funding for this I think is the right thing because S.o.J.D.C. are developing, they are making a profit, and I think to put that back into public realm for the citizens of Jersey is a really positive step forward and I think something we should applaud. There is a piece of al fresco land there which the Minister is reviewing whether that is sold by S.o.J.D.C. or sold by ourselves, and there are various other elements of that but that is not currently related to the Liberation 75 process. That was received from another development.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, because it seems to me that it is something that cannot be ignored because there is an ongoing maintenance with any of these things and if there is an area which was producing income it needs to be linked and I would urge further consideration of that.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Just to add to that one. I think S.o.J.D.C. are currently using their income to maintain their area of the square at present. In terms of how we go forward with the finished square, it would be ideal for one party to administer the whole square. The Parish, St. Helier , who we have had very high-level discussions with, certainly will not take it on without the fact that they have got a comfortable maintenance scheme going forward. So I think it remains to be either the 2 current administers of the square will share it or there maybe someone new found but we have not really entered those discussions as such yet.

The Connétable of Grouville :

What in fact, if any, is the move to One Government having on department resources?

Director General, G.H.E.:

That is another one for me then. Any restructure is challenging and I think John, my finance director, he now reports into Treasury, and so the hub and spoke model, as these services are provided for us, is just another way of cutting the cake. So we have transferred a significant amount of people who were in D.f.I. Although John was the finance director prior for Andy, as chief officer of the Environment, and me, as chief officer of D.f.I., John now looks after G.H.E. currently but works directly for Treasury. Our policy people have now moved to S.P.P.P. (Strategic Policy, Performance and Population) and that is the environment policy team and the planning policy team.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : What does S.P.P. stand for?

Director General, G.H.E.:

That is a really good question. Can somebody else answer that?

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Strategy Planning and Policy, something like that.

Director General, G.H.E.:

And population. And performance, yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Presumably, the whole idea is to lead to savings. Is that going to happen?

Director General, G.H.E.:

Invariably long term I think, yes, but short term I think it is how you reset so I think you have got to grow a bit to then drop a bit. It is a different way of working. It is a different principle and hopefully should be one where the policy team can support us better. From the financial perspective, John is going to support me as my finance director regardless of whether he works directly for Treasury or directly for me; that is sort of irrelevant.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It must it be bad for morale in some respects, all this moving and changing. It is not easy for people, is it?

Director General, G.H.E.:

It is not easy for people and we have all been through it and we are all going through it and it is a very challenging time and I do not think anybody been addressed to make that the effect on morale and the effect on people who are challenging and people are voting with their feet and leaving the organisation which is probably one of the intents but for us what we have got to do is

we run a £100 million business and I need fantastic support, which I get from John and his team, and that needs to stay doing that and if not then I will be going back to Treasury saying: "Can I have the support for that team?" So it is just where you draw the line. Hopefully, with better systems in place, better financial systems particularly, to support us then John can then do more of the strategic stuff and not be worried about closing off the accounts at the end of the year, which is what we spend a lot of time doing, do we not?

The Connétable of Grouville :

So you can see the merit of it and sort of light at the end of the tunnel although you are going through a very difficult patch.

Director General, G.H.E.: Yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am about to make my third office move I think in the next 2 weeks.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am concerned that you talk about this is a £100 million business, because you are there for the public, your £100 million organisation. I would question your suggestion that it should be a business which includes the idea of profit-making and things like this. Is that how you see it and it should be a business rather than an organisation?

Director General, G.H.E.:

It is a fair reflection on the words. It is a £100 million organisation, you are quite right. But a lot of that is run on a very business-like footing and as commercial as possible because

Deputy K.F. Morel : A professional footing.

Director General, G.H.E.:

And a professional footing and a lot of that in other places would be a private business and an arm's length business. I detect a criticism on terminology but it is an organisation that is very commercial and we need to try and maintain that so we can prove efficiency to the public.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

You mentioned people leaving as well. How many people have left?

Director General, G.H.E.:

People leave all the time, organisations, and I think some people have left the organisation. I do not know the numbers. Sometimes if an organisation changes and it does not fit what people want out of life then they should move on. So it is not a criticism. It is just a concern because we know in Jersey there is a small pool of high calibre people who can do very specific roles and we have got to try and maintain and hang on to them as much as possible.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going back to the one government. In terms of G.H.I. there was a suggestion of conflict within the department.

Director General, G.H.E.: That is between me and him.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

How have you overcome that?

The Minister for Infrastructure: The G.H.E.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes. Well, yes the "E" and the "I".

The Minister for Infrastructure: Well, the "I" does not come into it.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Well, firstly we have got a protocol in terms of the way of working that we have to adopt within G.H.E., which effectively the issue is obviously that we are the regulator of the operator effectively. If we are building something we are regulating that. If we are delivering a service we are regulating that through. If we have got a food premises we regulate that. So the regulation teams regulate everything from all government vehicles all the way through to building, to planning, to trading standards, and consumer protection regulates all government services, abattoir. Yes, there is quite a lot of regulation obviously of our own activities. The key to that is transparency for me. We have got to be really clear about who is doing what and ensuring the regulator can get on and do their job independently and making sure that they are not, I guess, being told what to think or to action as opposed to being allowed to just sort of come up to a professional recommendation or whatever and take it on from there. The main way of dealing with that is we have written a protocol which effectively highlights where we think there are regulatory conflicts within G.H.E. There is a bit in natural environment. We do a bit of regulation in natural environment on such things as the sand and stone law and things like and taking things off beaches and that sort of stuff but the majority of it is in my area. It is just effectively an agreement between director general, group director, director to say: "This is how we operate." I guess it basically says there will be no management direction over regulatory decisions. The regulator has got to come up with their professional recommendation and decision.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you think the public can have confidence because we have seen there has even been police investigations recently into departments that were regulating in that sphere. Can the public have confidence when, as you said, we have been regulating our own order?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

I think the quick answer is, yes, they can. I think the aim is for transparency. So if I look at the planning service everything they do and every piece of paper they receive is effectively publicly available and online now. So the answer very often in terms of people questioning what is going on behind closed doors is just to make it 100 per cent transparent, publicly available, publicly accessible, any sort of regulatory file we have. Unless it is an investigation file they are publicly available files to look at. So I think that is the answer. There are always questions around regulation in terms of that what we regulate in the economy equates to something in the order of about £2.6 billion worth to the economy here, G.V.A. (Gross Value Added) value, in terms of our tourism industry, our planning and construction industry, our landlords and private sector rented accommodation industry; they are  worth a lot  of money to the Island.   It always opens up questions about, are people behaving themselves sort of thing. The only way of dealing with that I think is full transparency and so if someone has a question, it is open the doors and come and look for it, you would say.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think, sorry, just to reiterate that myself and Andrew have worked with, as has the regulator, and operated for many years, as have with Willie, who is one of the directors. Our intent is the same. We are here to protect Jersey and to make Jersey the best place possibly from an environmental perspective and a planning perspective. So being together means that we can make sure we are all working in the same direction. That does not mean I am having any form of influence over what is happening but the intent is correct.

[14:00]

I think the key thing is to make sure there is a proportionate amount of resource in both areas and we do things which are adding value to Jersey and not disappearing up a very bureaucratic process, which I think we almost veered towards on a few occasions of Andy's team being used as a foil to get at Kevin's team and myself. I think there is some validity in being together but we have also got to make sure that we are scrupulous of terms of our transparency and account for that clear gap when it comes to issues that I am dealing with or other parts of G.H.E. are dealing with.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can I ask one, which is going to sound a very silly question maybe? I know what housing is, I know what environment is and I know what growth is but what is growth in the context of your remit?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Growth; that would be Lyndon Farnham .

Director General, G.H.E.:

So growth is effectively the economy and sport tourism so it is the old E.D.T.S.C. (Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture) element and that

The Connétable of Grouville :

So it is not really anything to do with you today because you are infrastructure, housing and the environment.

Director General, G.H.E.: No, but growth, just to fill it

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It was to do with the director general.

Director General, G.H.E.:

is all the elements of Jersey's economy

The Connétable of Grouville :

I understand that side of it. I did not know what it was doing in this context but it is

Director General, G.H.E.:

But in that, again Andy will regulate a lot of those areas as well so it is not just between D.f.I. and the Environment but that is all the economy piece that excludes digital and excludes financial services.

The Connétable of Grouville :

So you are responsible for 2 Ministers.

Director General, G.H.E.:

More than 2. Four, I think. So it is Lyndon and his team, Kevin and his team and also John Young and his team and Sam's.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving on to old friends. The Common Strategic Policy in 2018/22 aims to produce an ambitious sustainable transport plan including external links I notice. So perhaps you can just give me sort of a high-level view of where if you have started this and if not, when you anticipate starting this which has probably

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes, I am very happy to answer that. Myself and my previous Minister did the first one that Jersey ever saw in 2009/10 and it was

The Minister for Infrastructure: The previous previous Minister.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Previous previous previous Minister who is now the chairman of the Scrutiny board. We did a sustainable transport policy. The States had tried it there were 3 or 4 iterations before and they were either slammed and stopped because they were not ambitious enough, or they were stopped because they were too ambitious. So we managed to draw a very careful line between those 2 extremes and produced a sustainable transport policy, which has stood as well because it has enabled us to provide a better bus service, to provide more sustainable transport and access provision, off-road access provision, but it does need we are nearly a decade on from there and I think it needs a new impetus. So the reason to start the transport director is not here. He is currently doing a policy sprint which is a new-fangled way of putting lots of policy people together in a room and for this next week they are looking at sustainable transport and that is ongoing and it started I opened it yesterday and that is going all week. So we are hopeful that the S.P.P.P. Department and my team, in terms of the transport planners, are all going to work together and come up with something quite innovative. I am hoping.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Well, hopefully in the next quarterly meeting we will hear more.

Director General, G.H.E.: Indeed.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

As a quick one before going on to the next question. Would you say that the last, or the current one, sustainable transport plan has been successful? Just a brief overview.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think you can look at it in 2 ways. If you take a step back and look at Jersey now compared to where it was 10 years ago, I and my previous, previous, previous Minister should be very proud because bus ridership is up 43 per cent. We have got off-road cycling provision. We are putting off-road cycling provision over the harbour heads, which we failed a couple of years ago to do. So that will get Havre des Pas right through to Corbière off-road. So there is huge traction there. I think the biggest for me personally, and probably very unpolitical, is the fact that we could not really change the model of car-park charging, was again a carrot and stick element which we could not use to then drive it further but I think ultimately the digitisation - I think that is a proper word - of car-park charging and the pay-by-phone system I think we can be more innovative with that. So hopefully the next stage of this is to move in a more mature way so that we can start incentivising people to not drive every day, to maybe drive 4 days out of 5 or 3 days out of 5 and incentivise that way with some car-park charging differentials.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There have been question marks over the incentivisation utilising electric cars and the emissions of non-electric cars and so on. It seems to me that every time we put a certain level in people buy their cars and the level gets immediately dropped so they get precluded and I have come across a few grumbles about that. What is the present policy with regard to, shall we say, incentives to get people to use low emission vehicles?

Director General, G.H.E.:

Again, you have got to be quite agile because the market has moved so quickly. When we started doing the incentivisation I think we started at 120 kilograms per cubic metre of CO2 you had to have a really small car or a hybrid or something and now Range Rovers do 120 easily, a hybrid one. So you have got to keep moving that. So it is how do you incentivise that good behaviour and then not penalise people 3 years down the line? I am going to be quite controversial here but it is still a car and it is still congestion and it is still tying up town and making those issues. So I think we have got to look at it slightly differently. I think whatever incentive we give to get the better behaviour is absolutely right but I think we are almost lagging the market. The market has moved significantly in terms of CO2 emissions from vehicles and we get lots of pressure from our friends at the Jersey Electricity coming to me parking free for electric cars. Now, I do not agree with the word "free" because somebody has got to pay for that asset and

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, but there is no free

Director General, G.H.E.:

No, and they do not give their electricity away for free, quite rightly, because we have got to pay for the asset. So I think there is a balance here but I think we need to be a bit more in tune to what the market is doing so that we can put these incentives in and keep them in because if it keeps dropping we finish up with no income. Environmental charges are exactly like that. You get the behaviour change you want then you cannot afford to run your business. So it is a real challenge.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have got 2 charging points in all of our multi-storey carparks and I think I would be quite happy to expand that if the need was there and obviously we do not get the pollution with electric vehicles, which is terrific and that is obviously the way we go, but we do have a slight downside. If you remember many years ago when I was one of the people queueing up at the Chelsea Hotel to get my road tax it was decided to do away with the road tax and put it on petrol fuel and diesel fuel but obviously as more and more cars are transferred to electricity we are not going to get that income which then goes back into, what was the road tax? Did it do the roads? We will need, in time, another source of revenue for that.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I also think the long-term future of car ownership you know, people from my generation it is an aspiration to have a car, and a nice car, but I think if you look at the younger generation now I think we are probably at a time where people can really look at carpools and car sharing in a far more innovative way, particularly if you live in town, if you have got limited spaces to park and I think we have got to start pushing I would rather push that or electric bicycles, which we did successfully in the past, or something different than to just focus on the car because if we focus on the car it does not really solve the underlying problem which is a beautiful Island spoiled by the roads.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Will you bring back the electric bicycle subsidy?

Director General, G.H.E.:

I would love to because I think it was a massive game-changer for the Island and we were the first place that I could find certainly the first place in Europe and first place in the world to subsidise electric bicycles and I think it was a very successful in fact Guernsey copied it. That is how successful it was.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sticking with transport, we understand that a percentage of profits from LibertyBus are invested into Jersey's infrastructure. We just wondered whether those funds are ring-fenced or not specifically for Jersey's infrastructure and whether it was in your budget.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. We also support the transport infrastructure and sustainable transport through car-park charging. John, do you want to explain the mechanism there?

Director General, G.H.E.:

The financial return which, prior to 2016, was purely going into the States of Jersey central funds has been progressively moved to come into what was D.f.I. now G.H.E.'s remit. That funds both the disabled passes scheme that was introduced a few years back and any surplus over and above that then goes to sustainable transport and road safety initiatives. So that is taking some of the pressure out of the capital programme but providing that sort of virtuous circle in terms of people paying for having a car then funding some of those things.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Could not the monies from LibertyBus go towards the subsided electric bike scheme, for example?

Director General, G.H.E.:

It could do but the LibertyBus money tends to go towards bus shelters and things that get more people on the bus so we try and hypothecate within that but it could do that, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Moving on to bus travel. Those figures indicate that uptake is increasing. Now, is this due to Jersey's population increasing or is there a direct correlation between bus travel increasing and car travel decreasing? Can you identify that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

LibertyBus has been fantastically successful since we brought them in and I think ridership is up by something like 40 per cent at least, but I forgot the figures. No, we sort of do as much as we can. I think LibertyBus is a fantastic company. We have got a very good working relationship with them. We are looking into a feasibility study with running double-deckers to the east of the Island, if that was possible, but there are obviously problems there. There are a few pinch-points that we have to work out if that can be available but it is one of our success stories. If you live on the south and east coast you do not need a timetable any more. You can come outside of your house and within 10 minutes a bus will come along. I am very pleased with that.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think the change to contactless now things like that enable people to use it.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Do you have an answer to the question? The question was: is car travel decreasing as a result of bus passengers increasing?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think people find it more convenient as such. I mean I have just walked here from home because it is quicker.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

The point here is that you can put as many bus passengers as you want on the buses but what matters is are people doing fewer miles in their private cars on the road because if that is not the case then all you are doing is really increasing bus passengers at the rate that the population increases.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is probably something in that but it is a very delicate balance between the 2. Do you have anything on that, John?

The Connétable of Grouville :

You mentioned 43 per cent. Over how many years is that?

Director General, G.H.E.: That is over 4 years.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That is good in itself but it does not tell us that car travel is decreasing.

Director General, G.H.E.:

No. What has happened is if you look at the numbers, the number of car journeys has plateaued. So I think that increase in population, increase in the busyness of the Island, has been compensated by an improvement in the bus service but also an improvement in people walking. I come from down the Inner Road from First Tower and the amount of people who walk in there is very significantly higher than it was 15 years ago anecdotally, but we do now check that and also the increase in cycling, a significant increase in cycling.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

If car miles have plateaued then would that be part of your next sustainable transport policy, to see the decrease?

Director General, G.H.E.:

To drop it. Yes, definitely, and we have focused on the commuter, and part of the sustainable transport policy was focusing on the commuter traffic. I think that is where we have got a key power focus because that is the difference in terms of how we have changed people's lives and improved people's lives.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think that 43 per cent is because now you have got figures whereas with the previous bus operator you did not have figures? Well, shall we say

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No. That is since the inception of the new company that has gone up. You could turn the argument round the other way as well and say: "If we had a totally free bus service would that solve the car problem?" and in my opinion I have to say no but we cannot uninvent the car but we have to put some measures in place to encourage as many people as possible to get on the bus.

Director General, G.H.E.:

But your question about the previous company, which you have as much mileage on as I have, we ratified the figures before we start quoting these because the figures were very obscure beforehand. So our growth in bus ridership is unique certainly within the British Isles over the same period.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

LibertyBus are constantly reinvesting in their fleet.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The number of people on a bus, it depends what time as well, the important time is between 7.30 a.m. and 9.00 p.m. There are a lot of people I know that catch the No. 1 bus because they go for a drink at some restaurant or other, so that will increase numbers because it is getting really popular but it does not really help the actual real problem time which is rush hours.

[14:15]

Director General, G.H.E.:

Well, I would challenge that because what that does is it obviously helps the viability of the bus, because that bus would have run anyway but it would have been empty, but it also makes people advocates of the bus. So now the majority of people in Jersey are proud to have got on the bus. To go for a cheeky beer at Gorey or to St. Aubin on the bus means that there is less parking and hassle in St. Aubin. People can use the bus and then they become advocates of it, and then if they think: "We could go on the bus to work or I can go on the bus home." So it is one of those stepping stones to democratise the bus and get the bus to be part of people's solution.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you cast your mind back to when we bought the double-deckers over and all we could get was some luxury double-decker buses and we thought: "Well, great, let us get the suits on the buses as well" and a lot of people still do that. A lot of people travelling into the finance centre use the bus and get off at the Weighbridge area and that is fantastic.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am going to take you back down to the roads now. Minister, I know you know all about these things. Are you satisfied with the performance of Gripfibre on the roads where it has been applied as a surface coat?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Gripfibre. Chris, do you want to

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Yes, can answer that. Yes, we are. We started it out as a trial on a relatively small road, Mont Mado, and we have been monitoring that and it has been successful. We have gradually gone to larger roads with more wear and tear and we are looking to continue to expand it out. We have now got problems with that with the supplier. We will be bringing them in each year to do probably 2 or 3 weeks' work here.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

How long is it supposed to extend the life of the road for?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Is it 20 years, Chris, or is it more?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Our traditional researching method that we are using at the moment, which is happening at Les Quennevais, is basically  we are, in simple terms, scraping off the top,  inspecting the base, repairing the base and putting on a new top. That is predicting a 20-year design life and from what we have done previously that is being achieved. The Gripfibre will get us a 10-year design life. It is probably about a third of the cost and it can be laid very quickly, very little disruption. It is enabling us to maintain the life of the roads we would not get to until the capital programme comes around to allow that. In terms of overall funding of the roads and our requirements to meet the backlog based on survey we have been significantly underfunded for probably getting on to 20 years now so the condition of the roads has decreased. This is the first year since then where we have got the adequate funding, nearly £7 million, to spend on the highway resurfacing programme which includes Gripfibre. So this year you will be seeing some significant amount of works out there and if the capital programme maintained through the Government Plan and beyond, we will be looking to extend those and continue that and extend it and, on that basis, hopefully start reducing the backlog we have.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good. Just to pick up on the technicalities of the Gripfibre, there have been a couple of comments from the public about it being slippery and the road conditions still not being that good and I suppose this is definitely going to be the case. But can I ask: is there much work done on the road prior to the coating as such to take out any irregularities or to do anything about ?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Not in terms of irregularities. I mean, there are numerous products out there for repairing roads. It is not just the traditional black tops we have over here, and where we trialled these products prior to us sort of settling on Gripfibre, they looked at them, they sound familiar when you drive over those, and people particularly like that. They find it different from the norm. In terms of the Gripfibre, prior to the Gripfibre being laid, we go through and repair any significant pot holes and repairs, ease out any aligning work, and then the Gripfibre then comes through after that. There is a period of you lay the gripping material into the glue, if I am making it too simple, and there is a period where you get a little bit of loose materials around. But that is probably maybe a week or so. We send the sweepers in to clear it up on a regular basis. It looks a slightly different colour but that tones down again within probably a month and I think it does sound a little bit startling but, again, it settles in and lot of the roads which were done where there was significant concern, Green Road and Mont Mado, et cetera, those people hardly remember now they had a different type of surfacing. We have done Rue de la Sergente or La Pulente Hill this year, and again that is a hill which has got some very tight bends, quite a bit of traffic going down there and it is surviving well, and it is a good methodology to extend the amount of repairs we have got with the amount of budget.

Director General, G.H.E.:

St. Peter 's Valley is a good example. I use it a lot on a bicycle and it probably was the slipperiest road I have ever cycled on in the wet because of the overhanging trees and the amount of traffic and that and now it feels a lot safer. Significantly safer in terms of going up and down there.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It sounds as though you, before this Gripfibre or whatever it is, you should have got round, or ideally you would get around every road every 20 years? You were not doing that anywhere near

or you are not doing that

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Our resurfacing programme has been as low as £400,000 a year. Because of that, the conditions of the roads which are unrepaired get worse. We go around and we do a survey well, we are out looking every day but we do our annual survey of the whole network every 3 years and that acts as a condition survey which sets our programmes, and from that we can tell what road we should be doing when. Because of the previous under-funding, we have got significant lag issues with the roads. We are not anywhere near as bad as other areas, and other areas of the U.K. even, but if we do not maintain at least the backlog, at least we can keep it so we are not getting any worse, then we will have a chance of hopefully maintaining what we have got. If we let the budget slip then it will get worse for the future and there will be significantly more budget requirements because once the condition of the roads falls below a certain standard it does not continue, it just drops. That is when we are because we are not reconstructing roads here. All we are doing is repairing the top surface. You get past that then you are into full reconstruction. We have not got there yet.

The Connétable of Grouville :

But the budget this year will help you at least tread water and not get any further behind?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Absolutely. Play catch-up, really. Like everyone is supporting and continuing it, like government planning going forward.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I was going to say, from your perspective, Gripfibre has been successful in helping you manage and kind of reschedule everything. So that is really what you are doing?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Gripfibre now is we looked for new products. We found a product we liked. We trialled it. We got it, it was financially viable and it is now part of our resurfacing programme going forward.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also with the roads, in the old days you could have a beautifully laid road and within sort of 4 or 5 months someone has gone along and dug it all up again. Now, obviously we have got street works laws and all various laws in place and there is terrific co-ordination. We have got someone who co-ordinates that now. So I mean, for instance, in Rouge Bouillon, on the west side of Rouge Bouillon, is due to be replaced, all the tarmac there, but obviously the contractors have informed us they have got a lot of work to do there. So we will wait for them to finish that and then we will go in to make sure that there is no disruption of the new surface.

The Connétable of Grouville :

How does the Gripfibre stuff compare in price to normal resurfacing? Full resurfacing?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.: It comes in about a third of the cost.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think the other benefit of it is the time it takes. If you look at what we are doing at Les Quennevais at the moment, it is quite disruptive for the area. So Gripfibre is very relatively quick.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.: It is in and out.

Director General, G.H.E.:

St. Peter 's Valley is another good example of a road, which is a really important arterial road in Jersey.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Minister, in response to an oral question from Deputy Tadier in November 2018, you confirmed that the department would be carrying out a review of the new taxi regulations. It is hoped that would have been carried out this month. Is this still the case and where are you in terms of the review and when do you hope to share the outcome of that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, we have the one-tier system as is being implemented at the moment and there was a consultation on the rollout of white to purple plates. To access the public ranks the drivers had to be affiliated to a booking entity. 108 out of the 130 purple plates have been issued to date. So it is a one-tier system.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

How has that been received from the industry? That is always a moot point.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

With the taxi drivers  it has been obviously controversial. With the cab drivers  it has been welcomed.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Has it affected how many taxis you can get at the airport or anywhere else? Is it better or worse?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is an improved supply of taxis, yes, especially with the night-time economy. Taxis are queuing up at the Weighbridge to pick people up to carry them home.

The Connétable of Grouville :

How do you measure that? I mean, who measures that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have got people to do statistics there. We have got marshals on patrol there to make sure there is no trouble and everybody gets home safely. Do we have the stats on it?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, I think in terms of where we are with the reform programme, so we are nearly into the process of making sure the purple plates are all out. In terms of the review I think we gave the commitment that we need to review it once it is finished, if you like, so we know what we are reviewing, I think. So we anticipate that in the next 3 to 4 weeks the remaining purple plates will all be issued. So effectively, we have got the plate change has occurred. I think we still have to do some more data around unmet demand. Some of the new technologies, the apps, booking apps that are coming online will help give us more data as well because that gives us those companies are willing to share their data with us in terms of "did get a cab or did not get a cab", that sort of thing. We certainly get data from the marshals at the airport. There are still occasions at the airport where there are not enough people there to pick people up. So we have to take all of those things into account whether we then go into then sort of wider: "Do we need more taxis?" I think we have to get the data back from the review first. So anticipating that, where are we now? Mid-Jan, late Jan. So by the end of February we should have had all of the purple plates issued. I think we have to have a period of understanding then: "Well, has that helped?" I think it has helped from the consumer perspective. They are seeing, you know the aim of the reform was to get one part of the taxi operating the Island, clarity on tariffs so that people knew what they were getting. I think some of the technologies will really help, as well. So I think the direction is right. I think we have had some really positive feedback from some drivers and we have obviously had some negative feedback as well. I think it has been a bit mixed. It does challenge some of the

way we did things, certainly with the rank drivers. Some of those have, not many, but some have come over to purple plates. So it is a bit mixed but I think overall the customer is getting a benefit.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So it is customer driven, and bringing things like credit cards in and

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

How are the marshals funded these days?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

It is a bit of a mixture, is the quick answer. So we fund a marshal the Weighbridge marshal is funded. It is a bit of cocktail of funding. Some of it comes from local businesses in the area. Some comes from D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards). Some is funded through C.C.A. (Community and Constitutional Affairs), that is or Home Affairs now. That is through Building a Safer Society. So it is a bit cobbled together, the funding for that one. The temporary rank which is outside the bus station, that is funded from D.V.S., and the Jersey Taxi Drivers Association currently funds the airport marshal. So it is a bit of a mixed picture and I think that is one area that we do need to they are very useful, the marshals. Certainly in town of a Friday and Saturday night. I think we need to get a far more sustainable funding model for them moving forward so that we can ensure that they are there long term because we always run the risk of a funding partner falling away and then the marshal

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It is a bit unreasonable to expect that Jersey Taxi Drivers Association to fund a marshal where others are picking up the client.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, especially since the rank numbers are changing. So obviously the airport rank is an example where obviously there used to be yellow plate drivers picking up. Now all drivers can pick up if they have got a purple plate. We do need to work out how that funding will be I think more equitable but also making sure the funding is going to stick for a period of time.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Just another quick question on taxis. Was there any more work done in regard to making a uniform livery for the Jersey taxis which was discussed at one point?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

It certainly was discussed in the review. I do not think we have gone that far yet. I think it might be that is another discussion for another day, I think. But many other places have done it. Certainly if you are coming into the airport or coming into the port and you are a visitor to the Island, that is the first thing you see very often, is the bus or the taxi. So I do not think we should lose that but I think it is going to be a quite difficult conversation, really. So we have not quite got into that territory yet.

Director General, G.H.E.:

There is an opportunity with wrapping to do it quite subtly, and very personally, and I think there is something about the brand which will step up if we do that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Especially as a lot of the drivers are owner operated, as well.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Taxi drivers are calling for more ranks, longer ranks, or better ranks. Is that something you can provide?

[14:30]

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, there was some communication just before Christmas in terms of how the Weighbridge rank was operating and who what vehicles were going in there. So there was some concern about take-away drivers parking in there and other people who were parking there should not be parking in there. We have upped some of the regulation in that area. So we have had parking control officers down there, the marshals. I think that helped. Got to keep an eye on those sorts of things because there is always someone thinking: "Actually, I will just pull my car in there and no one will notice." I think the main challenge we have got is obviously we have an increased number of vehicles using the ranks as opposed to where they were previously because we have got more purple plates in the market. That is going to challenge some but I think we want more vehicles available more during the day, more during the night when a lot of vehicles are available during hours where maybe the customers did not want the vehicles. So I think we still have got to do a lot of data analysis there as to making sure we have got a ready supply at all times. I think that is the challenge. Some of the apps and things we are seeing coming forward will help, certainly that data telling us who is what those travel patterns are because we do not necessarily see all that at the moment.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Could you update the panel on where you are with the M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) introductions, et cetera, and what sort of the short term, long term?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it mainly deals with most of the regulation. Is that right?

Director General, G.H.E.: Without using the terminology?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, that will be testing I will get the right letters in the right order. Clearly the States Assembly has made the decision to bring it in which is a good step forward with the big step forward will be

the first sign of this will be from 29th March where we will be testing effectively motorcycles, mopeds light bikes, those sorts of things. So they will start being tested from March onwards, end of March onwards, and then mini buses and then those vehicles like that. So that will be done in D.V.S. That is really the first signal that we are complying with the Vienna Convention and that we are testing vehicles. So we have got about 5,000 letters to go out, thinking originally initially, sorry, to go to sort of bike owners and minibus owners. So that is all being planned now but we are sort of ready to go. We have got a fees order ready for the Minister to have a look at and we have tried to keep the fees reasonable to cover the costs of doing that. So that is going to be done by D.V.S. down at La Collette. Certainly the motorcycles and the minibuses, and then we are going to the other bit of work, the major bit of work then is the options appraisal on the much bigger round of testing which is for all vehicles. We have, as we have highlighted previously, got to look at the various options that are now open to us as to how we deliver that and whether that is a fully government-led test station, or whether it is a hybrid, or is it how do we interact with the industry? So that is being procured at the moment. So we need the options appraisal giving us the answer for debate and agreement by the end of this year so we can get on and choose a solution, build something if we need to, and then so the majority of those vehicle testing will come in a couple of years after that. So 2022.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think, obviously, the Vienna Convention is coming in now and they are Europe is happy that we have taken the first step. So everything is in train, and they are content with that but, as Andy said, it is going to be down a long road because at the moment we already test the P30s, the big trucks and the big heavy goods vehicles and all the public service vehicles. They are already checked.

The Connétable of Grouville :

How are you interacting with the industry about helping them to at least try and supply the service?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, so there is a dialogue. I think what we have seen from some in the industry is they are quite interested in getting involved in testing. Some are not and to some I think there was quite a bit of, I guess, disconnect in the communications around this because some thought it was going to be a requirement that they had to do the testing. So we have had some garage owners saying: "We just cannot afford to bring in the machinery or the test equipment," and we are saying: "Well, we do not need you to do any testing at all. One of the scenarios is that we do all the testing. You pick up the work that results from the testing." I think some of the bigger garages, I do not think it will be a surprise to think they are probably thinking of building it as part of their service but it would still leave a majority of vehicles that the capacity has to be built to do that testing. So the dialogue is ongoing. I think what we are trying to do is just keep the dialogue going and it is a fairly open information sharing thing at the moment as to where we are. They certainly will need to be involved in the options appraisal because part of that work is understanding what capacity we have got in the Island from either the bigger garages or even the skills we have in the Island.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Is D.V.S. geared up to cope with this sort of bulk which is going to come at the end of March? That is just to start with.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

Yes, we are okay on the bikes and the minibuses. I think obviously it will become busier down there in the test station but we are confident on that mainly because it is a more straightforward job to do. We certainly cannot handle 30,000 vehicles a year coming through there which are new testing. So that is going to be where the majority of work on the options appraisal has to look at, how that is delivered, and then that will result in a solution whether we will need to build a bigger test station, effectively.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It seems to me that hybrid solution would be probably the one to go for because the bigger garage would do maybe the bulk of the work and the department would do a smaller amount of work and then would not need the investment, or the same investment as if they did everything.

Director General, G.H.E.:

The good thing is we are going to have to we have not got a pre-determined plan. So there is lots of options from the economy side of things. I think we have got a responsibility to look after the smaller garages because I think the big garages could dominate very quickly. If we look at what has happened in other places, private sector organisations can use this as a mechanism which then

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Sounds as though it is a trust issue.

Director General, G.H.E.: It is a trust issue.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The U.K. have been testing since 1960 so there were not that many cars proportionately, but we are coming from a standing stop so we really have to work hard.

Director General, G.H.E.:

So the nice thing is we are not government pretending we are going to consult and then do not. We really want to know what the industry want to do but we have also got a responsibility to all garage owners on account and there is an opportunity for growth here because it is a new part of the business and it is something which can be, you know, wide ranging from either all private sector, all government, or somewhere in between.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Feedback indicated there was a considerable shortage of potential technicians, as you say, mechanics. Have you had a conversation with Highlands yet as to how that might be dealt with?

Director General, G.H.E.: It will be quite fine.

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Good.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Again, it is special, is it not? To become an M.O.T.? I have used the term, have I not? To become a Vehicle Assessor Tester which does not actually it is not a full mechanic. So there is something which is an opportunity for people as a stepping stone or as a career development.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Highlands are very keen.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

One of the things we need to understand is the work is exactly what the capacity in the private sector is because it is good if the private sector do some, I think, because it takes the burden away a bit from government. But then if the private sector say they are going to do it and then they are not going to do it, we still possibly need to be able to deal with that capacity as government as a sort of last resort. So a part of that, all of that has got to go into the mix as part of the options appraisal this year. So my gut feeling is it probably will be some form of hybrid version. I think that some of the private garages will want to do some testing. Government will have to do some testing and I think they will probably do the majority of it still, and there will be a lot of work for the smaller garages to pick up as well. So yes, but we have got to involve all the key players in that, in trying to design a solution that we think works for us. So yes, we have to have a dialogue.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Our perception is that originally the thought was the government would do it all and we felt the industry had not really been consulted particularly well. The idea was that industry will not do it but it was not the case. It is hoped that your attitude, if you like, has changed, and that you will be sort of actively seeking private sector interest as well as the hybrid without leaving out the small garages.

Director General, G.H.E.:

The industry is quite well represented to its government bodies but it is a bit like the taxi industry, it has a significant amount of small businesses who are staunchly independent. So it is hard to get to them. So we have to gauge that better, you are quite right, and that as Government we really struggle to get to that. Then it is really easy for someone to send an email to the governing power saying: "Oh, no one has spoken to me." But we can live with that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thinking of Brexit, post Brexit, we have got this question of International Driving Permits. The Vienna compliant, or the European compliant or whoever else compliant, the Parishes are quite keen to know what is happening with this. Have you got any further information on that with regard to the rollout after 29th March?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

We are preparing to do it. I think we are looking at I was in a conversation with our communications people last week as to what they need to look like and they are pretty proscribed as to what they need to look like. They need to look like an I.D.P. (International Driving Permit) as prescribed by E.U. (European Union) regulations. So they are not very stunningly well-designed documents, if I can put it that way. It just has to be done. So the plan is still to get them in place at the right time assuming we know what is going on with Brexit.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Can you see a situation where Parishes have to supply 2 different types of international driving licences because the 2 conventions are different?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, Spain subsequently I think you know better than I do.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

I think technically the answer is that can still happen but most people will want the Vienna one, I think. But I think that is

The Connétable of St. Brelade : That is questionable but

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

I think the important thing is France because France is Geneva and that is the crucial thing and my understanding is

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is our first point of call for all this, is it not?

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Clearly we need some clarity sooner or later on that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also the possible Greek card within the Union regarding cars.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Looking at road safety, I was just wondering if you can advise us what road safety projects you have planned for 2019.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

Yes, the process we have now for road safety projects, we have as the requests come in, the majority for the public, some through the Parishes. They go through a road safety panel. The road safety panel is set up with our professional traffic engineers and they do a scoring system across the whether and how that project goes forward. If it meets the cut, so to speak, then it goes through into the design phase and depending on the difficulty of implementing that, it is here we then have to get the experts in. Some of these might require us to acquire land. Some of them might be easier than others. But in terms of our 2019 programme, we have now got a list that we are working on. We need to finalise it now with the Minister, but we are now sort of within by probably another 4 to 6 weeks we will have our final list. I have got a list of some of them which I am happy to sort of read through and share. Might be similar to the listing

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I was going to say, it might be just in case something falls back off and you get somebody's hopes up and then they are dashed.

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

We have been trying very hard to keep a list as realistic as possible until committed to it but for various reasons there may be a delay in the project for whatever reason or there might be another project which comes through which comes as a higher priority and might jump the list but we try and do that. In any one year where we are building some and designing others. We are now in a strong position inasmuch as we have got the finance director explaining that and we have now got a steady £1.5 million income stream. We now have got a process for setting those and prioritising those and we are now delivering those year on year,

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We get quite a few requests come in from the Parishes and individuals. How often do you meet, Chris? Is it once a month?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.:

The road safety panel meets once a month. But to give you an idea, we have had 156 requests in 18 compared to 110 in 19. Of those, 80 came through from the public directly, 30 through the Parish, the rest through various other routes. Some through individual politicians, some through the police but those are all lower than 10 numbers. The majority come as direct public requests.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Maybe I am being a bit controversial but some of these requests will come through because for a lot of people outside their house there is an accident waiting to happen. Realistically, in trying to take on the environmental needs of the Island, a lot of the road safety projects can be sort of termed as "urbanising an area". What is the view on that? It seems to me that one could take safety as being superior to everything? Is that the correct decision? How the department --

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is quite a lot on there. For instance, in Molton Brown(?), there have been a few accidents there. I mean, the team came up with some ideas for some new barriers that were solid steel but with a wood side and they looked absolutely fantastic. We have had quite a few Parishes ring up and say: "Can we have some please?" We do get criticised for urbanising the countryside. So it is finding that balance between safety and maintaining the sort of country feel.

[14:45]

The Connétable of Grouville :

I have to say, chairman, that the road safety panel are excellent. I have put forward things to them and they listen and if there is a reason why they cannot help or think that it would not be appropriate, they give a very good reason and a quite often they say: "Yes, that is a good idea, and think it works extremely well from the Parish point of view." I do not know. Do you find the same?

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think that is the key thing, is to give a reason why we would not do it. I think in the past we have just not had the bravery to say that and I think people need to know that we are not doing it because it is not in the public interest, and there is a reason for it. "Do you think there is a far better way?" and then you support the good ones and deliver them. But I think there is an issue. You cannot just keep making the roads faster and safer. I think there has got to be a reset and I think the panel looks at that in all cases.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So is that list made public at any point?

Director of Engineering and Infrastructure, G.H.E.: It is made public once the Minister has approved it.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, that is fine.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

In the meantime, quite a lot recently in Longueville, on Bagot Road, where there was only one crossing on the whole stretch of that road for decades. So now there has been three going in there and I was talking to lady the other day who lives there and she said: "Do you realise I used to play hopscotch in the middle of that road?" Well, sadly those days are long gone. It is now a major artery. It is a major artery coming into town and we have to maintain that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Recycling time. What have you got? What are you going to do to try and encourage more recycling? We have been doing a bit of work on plastic recycling. A tremendous amount of work being done by the department to encourage it but it does not appear to be working. It is not a criticism of the amount of effort put in but statistics do not really show

Director General, G.H.E.:

As an overview, we seem to have a discontinuity in terms of the west of the tunnel and the east of the tunnel. West of the tunnel, recycling seems to have been embedded in most Parishes and the east of the tunnel, strangely it is not in terms of kerbside.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes, well, that was the first point that I was going to pick up on and I know when I am always in this room I talk about the household Parish recycling collections. So I will start there again. But that continues to be a focus for us. So we have got 6 Parishes successfully delivering those household collections now and our priority is to work with the remaining Parishes for them to establish similar collections and obviously working with the existing Parishes that have collections to maintain awareness  and maintain participation in those.   We are currently talking with 2 additional Parishes that look optimistic that they will be introducing household collections this year. One is St. Peter and they were quite open on social media that we have had some meetings and we will be picking that up within the next few weeks. That will probably go forward in the format of a Parish Assembly and we will be engaging with the Parishioners to gain support for moving that forward. The second Parish have not made the discussions with the department public yet, so I am not going to say which Parish it is because I do not want to dilute their fanfare of when they come forward. But it is safe to say we are optimistic and that will then mean 8 out of the 12. We will be pushing the focus area of where households do have access to that recycling facility into a much broader area. I would like to say keeping the momentum going on to the other Parishes that do not yet have those recycling collections.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The point of the question is, we have got half the Island on recycling and yet the amount of recycled bottles, for example, is incredibly low. Even if everybody was recycling the amount of bottles recycled would still be at an amazing low, despite spending a considerable amount of money on it. As I say, it is not a criticism of the amount of work you are doing to try and encourage it but it does not appear to be working and I do not know what can be done to make it work, so that if recycling was really positive for the 6 Parishes that are being collected now was really good, then it would be much more difficult for other Parishes to say: "We must do it." At the moment the cost of the kerbside collection does not seem to be justified because the results are not very good.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.: What we

Director General, G.H.E.:

Sorry, just a quick one on that is if the alternative to throw it in the bin is cheaper, freer, has no comeback on it, then it is only through the efforts of Emma and the enthusiasm of my team that are keeping it going, which is quite frustrating for all of us. But, Emma, can you give us a

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes. What the statistic that we discussed as part of the plastics review was that we estimate that about 6 per cent of the Island's plastic bottles are currently received and exported for recycling, which I agree is frustratingly low. Where I come back to the back to basics of establishing these basic, fair and accessible forms of recycling for everybody as a foundation and I think there is still merit in doing that. Once we have established that every household has got access to a basic recycling collection for those everyday recyclables, such as plastic bottles, I think then we can move forward. There are some very exciting things that we can be talking about and I think we touched on the reverse-vending technology, which we are seeing, potentially, some of the large supermarket chains engage with going forward in the U.K. But until we have got that basic fair accessibility for your everyday recyclables, certainly I am reluctant to be talking about the new technologies because they change the way people recycle but you need to get the basics right first before then looking at these on-the-go solutions. Let us work together to maximise recycling within the home; that spills over to recycling solutions in the workplace and in schools and then we can look at: how do I recycle when I am in none of those locations and I am at the beach or walking through the High Street and those types of things? We are really looking for our education and awareness, we are going back to basics as an approach from the beginning of this year and we have developed some recycling posters that will go by recycling and rubbish bins in schools, in businesses, around States departments, to remind people of just the fundamentals of what should and should not go in this bin. Let us get that right and then we can move forward and there are big wins to have.

Director General, G.H.E.:

If we go back to the original discussion, we had about waste charging and the Government Plan, I think it is really difficult for the Parishes and the Constables to have this debate when the consequence for them is their Parish rate will go up. How that goes up, for St. Brelade it was a very minor increase because of the change of operator and the change of efficiency that was negotiated at the time, so it is quite a fortuitous time for St. Brelade to do that. But I think for lots of operators and for lots of Parishes it is a really difficult issue and I think that is a challenge that I think should be taken on board in the Government Plan, so that we are not fighting against the world and that is what it feels like because of the

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you think there is merit in some form of separation of, shall we say, dry recyclables from food waste? We are not doing anything really in that direction domestically but should we to enable our recycling rates to go up? Because we would have pulled food waste out of the kerbside collections, perhaps separated bins or whatever, would that bump up our recycles? Secondly, it goes back to the sort of M.R.F.s (Material Recycling Facilities) and putting a separate recyclable system through that, perhaps in the style of the Parish of St. Helier where they basically have a bag collection. I know, having been involved, that method has been criticised but it seems to work for them and maybe it works better in a town situation, an urban situation than put in the countryside.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think the choice of how we do it is a choice for a Parish and I think the challenge with M.R.F.s generally is the quality of the recycling is not as good because people are not that and what we try and establish as an Island is we have high-quality recyclers, which means that when the markets bomb, and they do on a regular basis, do they not, we can always get a market for our recyclers because it is high quality? Food waste is interesting, our fellow island, Guernsey, is recycling food waste now but Guernsey are in a very different position to us. We have a lot of agriculture in Jersey, which, if we composted that food waste, it would have to go back to agriculture, which have problems and you would not be able to do that because of protocols. You could separate the food waste and put it in our anaerobic digestion plant and generate electricity; that is a possibility. But at the moment the best solution for us is to put it through our Energy from Waste plant. I think if our Energy from Waste plant was at the point of capacity, then food waste would be another option we could take out. But I think you are running by then, I think we need to walk first and walking is basic, simple recycling of paper, cardboard, plastic, metal and that is not happening for half the Island.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Maybe something for Richard but in terms of food waste, if a substantive food waste going to the E.f.W. (Energy from Waste) was increased, is that going to affect the running of the plant?

Assistant Director, Solid Waste, G.H.E.:

Not particularly, no. The plant can deal with a very wide range of wastes and deal with the increased level, probably doubled it and we would probably still be able to run it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is one of the reasons why we want to take as much glass out of waste as possible because the Energy from Waste plant or Energy Recovery plant does not like it and Richard's team has to go in and manually take it away.

The Connétable of Grouville :

You just said that half the Island are not recycling, that is not true.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Sorry, yes, in terms of kerbside I do not know what the exact figures are in terms of is it about half?

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.: Would it be

The Connétable of Grouville :

I think you were sort of implying that people have not got kerbside recycling and that certainly is not true.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have got the bin bags as well that

Director General, G.H.E.:

Apologies, I was not referring to kerbside but there is a very established bin system, particularly in country Parishes and it is very successful.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose, in a way, it is a sort of a mixed blessing having the E.f.W. because it has not forced our hand with regard to recycling, such as happened in Guernsey because of their different situation. Do you think we have got anything to learn from Guernsey by their processes?

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. First of all, their waste charge is currently about £300 a tonne they charge the commercial and the public.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

You can buy the stickers and the stickers go on the bags.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. If we would recover £300 a tonne, then we would learn a lot and run a very different process and business and the incentivisation to recycle would be massive. I am not advocating that but it

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Got £300 a tonne

Director General, G.H.E.:

But I think there is a lesson to be learned in terms of how you make a sustainable solution to waste long term. Our Energy from Waste plant, it will soon come to its 10th anniversary; it will probably have another 15 to 20 years left in it. We have soon got to start thinking about its replacement. I do not think we could ever think about replacement without a mechanism, a charging mechanism, to start getting fundamental behaviour change because that 10 years goes past really quickly. It has got to have a political decision, which tends to take about 10 years.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you remember, Kevin, we were roped to the top planks on the roof of that place while it was being built.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Indeed. Can I just question something, it is 2 points really? I suppose the first is we spoke about a better public collection and you walk down King Street and we have not got the different coloured bins that one perhaps sees in other places; it is not only King Street but in other Parishes as well, including my own. In terms of the public litter bins, could we not do more in terms of recycling by having different bins out? The other point with regard to recycling we picked up on a visit to Jayplas, the plastic recycling facility in the U.K., that they want all the bottle tops on but we are told to take them off over here and I just wondered what your reaction to that was.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes. No, that is very exciting. I am aware that Jayplas ran a trial on recycling of P.P. (polypropylene), the type of plastic that the bottle tops are made from and they have come out the other end and they are able to recycle that type of plastic. I have only found out that very recently by working with the contractor, who is the middle handling agent for Jayplas. We will be moving forward and we will be explaining to our customers that bottle tops can remain on. It is a small win but it is definitely a step forward. We have not gone out and said that to the media in the last week, which is only the timeframe that I have been aware of it, as we just need to really look at the communication materials that we have got out there and we want to be consistent in our messaging and not contradictory. We just need a little bit of a plan to communicate that. But definitely that is a new addition to our recycling portfolio within the

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Just to check, so my next recycling collection I can leave the bottle caps on, is that right?

[15:00]

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

You can, we may have not updated our communication material and obviously there is a bit of a supply chain between you filling your kerbside box and it reaching Jayplas. We need to work with the Parishes and the contractors that are collecting that material and explain that that is no longer a contamination because obviously the risk is that your collector might see it as a contamination and will not collect your plastic bottles.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

That is what I am worried about, exactly.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

We will be announcing that going forward with this.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also, if you have the wine bottle, please take the tops off.

Deputy K.F. Morel : Yes, I do.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, the argument was that the old bottle tops were getting lost, whereas with the modern they can keep them in-house and they go to making the wheelie bins, which is quite interesting. Certainly, from the public's point of view, it is really interesting to see our plastic bottles being converted to plastic film for use elsewhere.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes, what is exciting about your visit and seeing that process is that it is a closed-loop system, so you saw the plastic bottles going in and then the plastic coming out. We can also use that as a communication tool and be helping to encourage the public to participate more in plastic recycling.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose in regard to M.R.F.s, obviously volume is significantly more over there but it does open one's eyes to the fact that improved technology could be utilised over here in years to come because their separation techniques are very advanced.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes, and automated and optical. I think if you look at our history with where is the electrical and electronic goods recycling? We started out, I cannot even remember how many years ago, Emma, but with the lady prisoners dismantling electronic goods and then we are at the position where there are now factories that do that automatically. We cannot just stick to one thing, we have got to keep seeing what the market is doing. The bottle tops are a great example and we have got to change and stay up to date with that, which is a very positive thing because the world is moving into a more sophisticated and mature market.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Probably half the plastic that goes into a dustbin is not recycled. Are you looking to try and include other things like yoghurt boxes and that sort of thing which can be done? I know it is maybe a bit more complicated but are looking to any other plastics?

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes. What we intend to investigate the feasibility of this year from commercial industry is high- grade u.P.V.C. (unplasticised polyvinyl chloride), so that would be window and door frames. This is looking more feasible as a sort of a spinoff win from our Just Glass campaign. Last autumn we started engaging with more household customers but also commercial glass collectors in the hospitality industry about cleaning up their mixed bottles and jars before we receive them because we were receiving increased-look contamination. The second phase of that campaign is working with the commercial sector who deliver a flat glass to us, so window frames, window glass, that type of thing. They will be asked to be separating the glass from the frames. Historically, they have delivered window frames with the glass panes in situ and they are able to separate out the glass from the frames. This will mean that it opens an opportunity for us by receiving the clean, although u.P.V.C. window frames; that should be easier for us to collect separately and then export for recycling, so that will be a considerable step forward for us this year.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Good. What about milk cartons?

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Milk cartons are not on the action list as yet for this year. Milk cartons are made from a number of component materials, so we have got the card in there, we have also got the plastic; we may have some metal in sometimes when they have a foil lining and

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that they are recycling in Guernsey.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

Yes, they do and there are lots of U.K. councils that are collecting them for recycling. I think, again, I am reflective on our priority list and maximising participation before moving forward; maximising participation in the plastic bottles, in metal packaging, very important for us to be getting metal out of rubbish bins and separated for recycling, so it is not going through our Energy Recovery facility. Our campaign on cleaning up glass has been successful but we have still got some work to do. We are aware of the public appetite to recycle milk cartons but I think there are other things higher up the shopping list, if you like, for us to do immediately.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Sheena Brockie last year did a study on the benefit of milk cartons, including the dairy and ourselves. Although for the consumer if they see recycling that disappears and it goes what happens is it goes to Scandinavia, they wash the paper off the outside and then they put the plastic through an energy recovery facility. It is recycled but it is not recycled. As Emma has quite rightly said,  that is not the lower-handling fruit. Sheena looked at this because,  again,  the challenge back to the dairy was, why do you not use a different form, a blown plastic bottle or a glass bottle and stuff? But their supply chain, their efficiency in terms of packaging and how they use it, that that works for them as well. It is looking at the product from its instigation and why you use it, right through to the reason and how you can or cannot recycle it.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Do you look at the cost of something? One assumes a milk carton is expensive to recycle; do you take that into consideration?

Director General, G.H.E.:

We take quite a pure thing in terms of how much commodity. We have tried to measure in carbon and a milk carton, metal is something that is pivotal for us. High-density plastic is something that we want to try and get out of the waste stream because of the acid gas it produces and we have been through that argument before. There are things that are really high priority for us in terms of its environmental effect. Cost is part of it but it is not a key consideration, it is more about the environmental impact.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

As a link to recycling, at the end of last year there were reports of increased fly-tipping across the Island and obviously it is a crossover between Environment and your team, Minister. Are you working in collaboration with each other on this and how are you aiming to discourage fly-tipping?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have got the app, the Love Jersey app, which is very good, that people just take a picture of the offending items and it immediately goes through to a central area and they can tell if it is a Parish area or States of Jersey area. It comes through the department and it is dealt with very, very quickly. We do not have any tipping charge at the moment and we have got an excellent facility down at La Collette run by Richard and Emma and it is second to none, as far as I am concerned. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever to fly-tip.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Have there been any successful fly-tip prosecutions yet?

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

That is pretty much the issue the issue that we are facing. We have now got an investigations officer who is out and about a lot of time. We are seeing more increasing events of fly-tipping and what people perceive to be fly-tipping, like using the bring sites for recycling but using them for the things they should not be using them for. There is a whole range of people putting waste in places they should not be putting waste and we are seeing more of that. We are using the Love Jersey app more, so we are gathering that. We have not yet had and this is where we really need something, we need some high-profile prosecutions that change behaviour; that is fundamental to the whole approach to regulation. If we are not getting that outcome, then people do not see this benefit of doing it. Whether it be prosecution, one thing we are looking at is whether it is then down a road to fixed-penalty fines, that sort of thing. Our legislation does not allow that at the moment, so it is something that we are considering in the future possibly. We know it is a problem and it is a growing problem but we need some prosecutions.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Going back to your comment about people leaving things at bring banks they are not supposed to; do you think that is more indicative that we are not providing sufficient facility in those areas? I think probably white goods or waste electricals is a case in point and it becomes a hassle for people to take them there; you are perhaps living in the west of the Island just to take them to La Collette where the facility

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are never more than 10 or 15 minutes from any point in the Island at La Collette.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes, but people are not going to do it but if

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I know but they need an incentive

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Yes. But what I am thinking is, ought we not to be providing a skip receptor of some description at more bring banks than we do at the moment because people seem to be using those successfully? If we can just spread their usage a bit, what is the downside of that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Our costs just increase exponentially because you need a skip there for old mattresses, another one there for fridges. The fridges, for instance, the team have to de-gas the fridges and there is quite a process.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That is still going to happen because that is all going to go to La Collette.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If they are dumped and just literally thrown into the skip

Director General, G.H.E.:

But a fridge is hazardous waste and if you can move a fridge half a mile to a recycling centre you can move a fridge to the proper facilities. I think there is an ignorance in terms of the sorters we have, I think, through a lot of our population and people do not know. I think we have got to keep a level of education and all fly-tipping is shared on social media through quite a big network now.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Does it tend to be the same thing that is being dumped? I suppose that could lead you or was it just a variety of

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

It is a variety and we do have hotspots in the Island where this happens. Some of the Love Jersey data is helpful just to highlight where these things are. We can then up our surveillance, whether it be overt or covert surveillance and we are going to see more of that coming through this year as well. I think we are hopeful that we will see more data that will warrant a prosecution. It is in the public interest at some point that we will get a prosecution and people think, right, better not do that again. But John is right, if someone takes a washing machine and puts it on the beach that is quite hard to do.

Director General, G.H.E.: They do.

Group Director, Regulation, G.H.E.:

It is a lot easier to take a washing machine to La Collette. I do not understand how that can happen.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I do not know if you still do it but I seem to remember some years ago you preferred to put the one I used was at Les Creux but you put a couple of big skips down there for small waste electricals and I think they were filled up very quickly. I just wonder if that is a programme that should be continued.

Recycling Manager, G.H.E.:

We did. For a couple of years we had what we called an electricals amnesty Saturday and we had pop-up collection points. They were staffed at some of our busier mini recycling centres across the Island and that was really to raise awareness that you can bring those electrical items to the Household Recycling Centre at Bellozanne in those days.

Director General, G.H.E.:

But it is a good idea though and I think something we should take away in that amnesty process. The other thing from a very personal view, I think there is more litter on our country roads than I

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I was just about to ask about that.

Director General, G.H.E.:

have ever seen. One of the things I was going to suggest to Emma, probably not in such a public place, is we need people to start adopting that on the street again. I am going to walk down my street with a plastic bag and collect it all because there seems to be somebody who walks down my street every day and chucks a packet of crisps and a can for soft drinks in the hedge at the same point every day.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I wanted to ask whether you have had any liaison with the construction industry for this. I have noticed rural construction sites and that they seem to correspond quite nicely, paper cups, it is the plastic

Director General, G.H.E.:

That is a really interesting point because I have got a construction site near where I live and I think obviously with wind and then debris there is a good chance of that.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, because there are no bins on site.

Director General, G.H.E.:

That is right, well there should be but the bins are normally an open skip, which is a mixed skip. But I think

The Minister for Infrastructure: Which is absolutely

Director General, G.H.E.:

But one of the great things about Jersey and one of the things I love and one of the things I get depressed about when I go back to England is how much litter there is there compared to Jersey. Yet I am seeing it on the lanes and I think we should all take responsibility for our own lane and perhaps we adopt a lane scheme.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, I think an adopted lane scheme would be an excellent idea.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have always said that when I eventually retire that I will buy one of the old infrastructure ride-on vacuums and I am going to do my road 3 times a week because litter, it is unnecessary and it is horrible.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is unnecessary, it is horrible.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We will not get into dog waste and such

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Talking about horrible and other such controversial subjects, the Future Hospital. Minister, were you surprised that your colleague, the Minister for the Environment, refused planning permission?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, I was a little surprised because obviously I am not sure if everybody has read the inspector's reports but there is no such thing as a perfect site, unfortunately, so wherever we put the new hospital there will be compromises there. We have still got some work to do, the team has work to do. John has put together a fantastic team in the parade who are working on this. But it could go down to a States decision next; we will see how we go. But there are propositions pending, as you know, and I would not like to pre-empt them.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The site that has just been rejected, is that now off the table?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As the Minister for Infrastructure, I have been directed that Gloucester Street is the preferred site, as voted on by the States of Jersey. If and when the States decide otherwise, then obviously I need to look elsewhere.

The Connétable of Grouville :

If you cannot get planning permission you have got to build it elsewhere.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That would be a States decision, you see, with planning permission. But we could go through the process again on any of the other sites and at the 11th hour the Minister for Planning could say: "No, I am not happy" and we are back to square one again.

[15:15]

Director General, G.H.E.:

One of the challenges with the planning inspector's report is to decipher it. What I would like to do is, if acceptable, Richard Glover has been advising us on planning throughout this process, although Andy could say the same thing. Because of the regulatory regulation function I would suggest that Richard gives a view on it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I will just finish by saying it is not necessarily which is the best site, it is which is the least-worst site? Because we have got a population now of 108,000 people at least and we are 9 by 5, so wherever we go there will be a compromise. I will hand it over to Richard.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.: Yes, thank you, Chairman.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Before you start, Richard, I would just say that this panel is concerned only with the site that comes under our remit. We are not put into hospitals at all but we are interested

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.: No, I accept that.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes, and I think it is worth clarifying, this project is the responsibility of the Minister for Infrastructure.

The Connétable of Grouville :

But I will just say that I am on the hospital panel.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

I think just to go back to the original question to the Minister; I think the Minister and the team were surprised because the Planning Department supported the scheme. It was implicit, as applicants, our presentation to the inquiry and as the Planning Department, that you have to make compromises. When you say things have to comply with the Island Plan, they have to comply with the whole of the plan, not every single policy within there. There is a balance to be struck and we were confident we got a scheme. I still think that the heart of the scheme is fantastic. I think it is a great scheme for regenerating that part of town and it is a great site for a hospital. I will get off my soapbox now. But the inspector was asked to look at other sites and said there was no other site basically, so there was no other site that performed better against the Island Plan. As John was saying, it is this idea of deciphering what the inspector is saying. He looked at each of the sites that were put forward and his conclusion was each of the alternatives would come with its own set of significant adverse environmental effects and consequent tensions with the Island Plan. He was saying: "I have looked at these other sites and you are not going to get away from this issue of the public-interest test", which is what the inspector asked the Minister to undertake. To paraphrase he said: have a consider about this and think about the public interest, whether the public interest at providing the hospital outweighs the breach to the Island Plan. Interestingly, at the beginning of his report he said: "The case for a new hospital is compelling and not addressing that evidence need will clearly have profound and negative consequences, which would increase in scale and severity with time." He then said that that issue constituted something that could outweigh the Island Plan. So

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, but his recommendation was to reject the site.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

It was to reject but he was very clear that he was recommending only on the basis of planning issues and the scheme against the Island Plan and there should be a public-interest test applied to see whether that public interest could outweigh the Island Plan, which the law allows for. The inspector was thread to needle on this saying: "The law allows you to apply other tests against the scheme, the compelling need for a new hospital could constitute an acceptable test that would outweigh those things."

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I would say, I do not think you rejected the site, you rejected the plan.

The Connétable of Grouville : Originally, not secondly.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.: Yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel : No, but this one.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

With this scheme, as with the first one, to be fair, he thought the site was a great site. It is a great site for a hospital because there is already one there. Notwithstanding the issues of construction that we are quite happy to discuss, he said that it was sustainably located, it was accessible, it fulfilled lots and lots of things that the Island Plan chooses to do. There are 3 particular issues within the Island Plan that it did not address. We feel we could address those things. We know where they are. We know what those things are. We could probably address those things.

The Connétable of Grouville :

What is your understanding of what a public-interest test is? Is it a public popularity test?

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.: No, absolutely not.

Director General, G.H.E.:

No. I think it has got to be a States debate, I would suggest, because the States Members represent the public. I do not think it is a referendum; I think a consultant suggested that yesterday. We know what happens with referendums, it is

The Connétable of Grouville :

With 5 choices, 9 months before you get it you will not get an answer.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Indeed. I think a States debate is probably the public-interest test.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose everybody is asking: what happens next? Notwithstanding we have a potential debate on the table at the moment but it is probably not going to achieve what we want it to.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

I think, as it stands, the proposition will move us backwards. There probably needs some work on the proposition to say, what happens next? There are people wanting to look at the alternative sites. We looked at the alternative sites. As the inspector said, he could not find one that got planning permission. I get in trouble in the team who are all excellent clinicians and people who can design hospitals and make them work and speak the language of clinicians and I keep saying without planning permission nothing is going to happen. It is a big hurdle to cross. But at the moment, from what the inspector said, we are not going to cross it on any of the other sites either.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

The planning issues that were raised by the report, were they surmountable in your view? It is part of the

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

The reasons for refusal?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes.

Head of Planning - Major Projects, G.H.E.:

I will give you an example, there were 3 reasons for refusal, one was residential amenity, one was townscape and one was impact on listed buildings. If we go to residential amenity, we know which properties were badly affected by residential amenity because the work we did with our consultants who looked at the impact of daylight and sunlight and a really complex model that they used, we can go along and we can say: "It is that property, that property, that property." We can point at the ones that are badly affected and we can look at how we can ameliorate that impact and how we can change that impact. Possibly not remove it altogether but we can certainly make it that it is not so significant that it justifies refusing the planning permission when put against a public-interest test, so there is somewhere we can go. If we look at all 3 reasons for refusal, we may not be able to pass those things. Something like the heritage issue, it is a very binary test. Does it or does it not harm the setting of a listed building? We are going to struggle with that one and all the other sites will struggle with that one as well because there are listed buildings on all the other sites. But we can make the impact less, so that the balance tips further and further in the public interest away from those breaches of the Island Plan.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Minister, do you have a favourite site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Light touch paper and retire. Do I have a favourite site? I have always maintained that as you know, working with the chairman and later myself, as Minister for Transport and Technical Services, I see things, first of all, from a traffic point of view. I am of the opinion that whatever we are building must be in or very near town. The Island slopes from north to south. All roads, like the spokes of a wagon wheel, lead to St. Helier . We have got the bus station in St. Helier and we are a good sort of halfway point, if you like, across the Island. I just feel that most people that work at the hospital live in town. In the morning there is a change of shift and you could not have 850 people walking in and out of the hospital if they were on a road during term time and people going to work, schools, et cetera; it would be absolute gridlock. We found that out when we had the rock-face collapse at Mount Bingham; on 3 separate days the Island stopped. We have a very high population on an island 9 by 5, most of the people live in the south of the Island, most of which live in the town of St. Helier . I think most people who visit people in hospital live in town. Statistically, I think it should definitely be, in my opinion, within the Ring Road. Rebuilding the

existing hospital would be good. If we need to put other bits and pieces elsewhere, so be it, but I think we have already got an approval for a hospital on that site; it will obviously need to be more carefully managed. But it is something we have to work with, there is only possibly 3 sites, in my opinion, we could use. We have got the current sites; there is the waterfront and there is Overdale and I think it has got to be in that area, definitely.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

There has been a lot of speculation about AIA Life, a French design company, architectural firm, do you think there would be any value; would we learn anything from inviting them over to undertake a feasibility study? Would we learn anything that we do not already know?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have used French companies in the past, so

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is not about their nationality, I was just

The Minister for Infrastructure: No, absolutely, no, we have

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is whether just inviting a company

The Minister for Infrastructure:

When we built the Energy from Waste plant we had a very good deal with a brilliant French company, which the D.G. (director general) located with his team at that time

Director General, G.H.E.: Can I answer this, please?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, it was an open tender, I believe.

Director General, G.H.E.:

Yes. No one has approached me from the company.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Yes, I appreciate that, yes.

Director General, G.H.E.:

I think there has been a letter issued to the Hospital Scrutiny Panel chairman, I believe.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

There has been a lot of speculation; that is all I know.

Director General, G.H.E.: Yes.

The Connétable of Grouville :

Asking for the Scrutiny Panel to invest in them to coming over but we did not feel that it was a Scrutiny Panel's role.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

No, it is not the Scrutiny Panel's role.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It is the department's role to investigate

Director General, G.H.E.:

We go out to the world to get people to advise us on things. Our architect who has designed this to date was an Australian company and the key drivers behind that and the team was Welsh. We have gone quite radical in terms of the international flavour, whether they are French or whatever, it

Deputy K.F. Morel :

I am really not interested in nationality, I am only interested in: can we learn anything that we do not already know from a feasibility study being undertaken by anybody?

Director General, G.H.E.:

I do not know what they have quoted. What I would say is I heard a figure of £60,000; £60,000 would not cover the traffic impact assessment on one of the sites. They have not been asked and I am not going to criticise the company because I have no contact with them. They have not been asked the right questions in terms of what the brief is and the scope is. This is complex. It is dull, it is complex, it has taken too long to get where we are. We are talking about a difference between fact and opinion. I am not an expert on planning. I am not an expert on site locations, there are other people do that. One of the consultants on our project board said to me last week, he said: "I

just need a box so I can do the work that I need to do on Jersey and I do not care where that box is but I need that box because the current site is becoming more and more challenging." But he does not feel as though he is able to add to the planning issues; that is for professionals like Richard and for Andy and for other people to do. Anybody else looking at it, I would suspect, would come to the same conclusions. We have had advice off Alder Hey Children's Hospital team, the team who built Alder Hey Children's Hospital is probably exemplars in the U.K. It was built on a park and then they provided the park where the old hospital was but let us not go there. That team have been helping us for the last 4 years, making sure that we were using the right techniques, we were building the right things in the hospital. We are very open for people to help us and we would welcome anybody. But the reality that somebody is going to come in and give us a different answer because this is not about a hospital, this is not about clever design, this is about planning and the Island Plan. As Richard said, the heritage test is binary. Does it affect a listed building? Yes or no. The answer is yes, then, therefore, it would pass the planning test. That is a challenge for Jersey moving forward in the next Island Plan and maybe some more elegant words for the heritage test. I am sure anybody else could help; we do need a fresh pair of eyes but I think that would need to be procured properly because I have got a responsibility for public money to do it openly and transparently. I do not know how this company has come about, they have not approached me. We go through a formal process, that process is dictated by our procurement team. I am challenged on that and I get audited on that. I would welcome anybody to come and help, if that is what the direction of travel is. I suspect the company does not know what it is being asked to do and what it would be asked to do in terms of a proper review and survey.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Just 2 things: when we built the Energy from Waste plant or Energy Recovery plant, as it was, I think that about 49 different countries around the world, including Nigeria, supplied the parts to go into that, so we are very internationally minded. But the present hospital in Gloucester Street and people are saying: "You cannot build a hospital next to an existing hospital."

[15:30]

But as you look at the hospital, they have got a beautiful Victorian wing, granite, staring at you. Then you have got the 60s wing, the 70s wing and the 80s wing, now how on earth did that happen? But there is an awful lot of misinformation out there that we need to distil that down and just get to the facts.

The Connétable of Grouville :

One of the criticisms by some is the site is just not big enough. For example, you have got some of the provision at Westaway Court and some even think mental health facilities should be in the new hospital but there would not be room and there is no room for expansion. What do you say to that?

Director General, G.H.E.:

Again, mental health facilities are catered for in the new design; they are more of the emergency first-line mental health. I think longer-term mental health conditions, it would be a very surprising strategy to put them in the centre of town on top of the General Hospital. I think that is something which I am not the expert but that is my understanding of the position there but somebody could answer that. In terms of expansion, expansion has been designed into the hospital. There are expansion areas we can go into in terms of where the other sites were going to be demolished but also in terms of the design itself there is expansion built in. There would be rooms that would be initially allocated as offices but they would have an ability to change into more ward space, more facilities. The challenge with hospitals and this is where they are very complex, it is all about productivity. You can have a fantastically massive hospital and only operate it 4 hours a day or you can have a lot more compact hospital and operate it 8 hours, 10 hours a day. There is a flexibility in terms of productivity that needs to be developed and built in and that is about a different model of care in terms of what happens in there. The challenge of it is not big enough. One of the reviews that was done this summer said in the same document that it was too big and also it was too small but I think it depends on where you are looking at it. I think some of the consultants are worried about the new set of space they have got. But one thing I do know is a new hospital is built around imaging and that needs to be the central core of it because that is the difference now between medical practice and what happens now than had happened 20 years ago, is the fact that near A. and E. (Accident and Emergency), near theatres, near the wards, near maternity; you have got an imaging suite and that is like the heart of it. We cannot do that on the existing hospital, so you have got to redesign. Once you have done that then it builds out from there. A hospital would definitely change, the medical practices and technology in there will definitely change, so you have got to build all those things in and we have done that.

The Connétable of Grouville :

But it is the smaller site of all the others by a considerable amount.

Director General, G.H.E.:

No, it is not. If you look at other sites like Overdale, Overdale is a big site but it is a big site surrounded by trees on top of a hill, so you will not be able to put the same building mass in there in terms of planning as you could in that area. The most efficient shape for a hospital is a sphere; I thought it was a cube but it is a sphere, so it is the closest you can get to the there is complexity here way beyond what people can even imagine. The site is big enough; there is lots of room for expansion and there is a huge benefit for having Westaway Court as a separate entity because that is about long-term conditions where you do not want to be going into a general hospital or feel like you are in a general hospital; there is huge benefit for doing that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, I appreciate time is short, I am just going to finally ask you a political question, if you agree with Deputy Labey 's proposition that we should stop wasting our time on the current site and look at others.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is a political question. Can I just say, first of all, that in the media of late, more so the Deputy of St. Ouen and myself; Deputy Renouf and I have been really castigated and accused of being stubborn and intransigents, et cetera, but we have to act as directed by the States of Jersey? We cannot just decide arbitrarily, let us build it over here instead. The States of Jersey have to direct us because obviously we are talking about the biggest civil project in Jersey's history, all right.

Director General, G.H.E.: By a long way.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

By a long way. No, we have to act as directed and if the States direct us to do something other than what we are doing, then we accept that. But let us make sure that what we are doing is wrong before we do that or it means nothing can be halted.

The Connétable of Grouville :

I think the question was what you thought.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I was coming to that but I am stalling at the moment. My thoughts, I want to make sure 100 per cent that the present site is not fit for purpose before choosing another one. As has been said in the inspector's report, this is the least-worst site. There is no perfect site, it does not exist. If you want a perfect site then you have to go to People's Park and that is simply not going to happen. The people of Jersey would not allow it and all the St. Helier Deputies obviously would rise up and chain themselves to railings, et cetera, but there is no perfect site.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The existing site, in your opinion, is the best site.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Is at the present, yes, unless I can be shown otherwise.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Does the Assistant Minister have a view?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

I am going to be very, very political and say it makes it very difficult for me because I am Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Also.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Also. Things have been said this afternoon, which I would like to make a comment on but I think really I should go back to my Minister for Health and Social Services, bearing in mind some of the comments that have been made. I will say one thing and that is that it is very much an ongoing conversation and there are quite a few people involved as to the way forward. But I will say one thing that I think everybody, even the civil servants, have come to the conclusion that at the end of the day this decision must be made by the Assembly and the people in the Assembly and I think

Deputy K.F. Morel : It was.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Pardon, I know it was but I think that we have to go back. I will also say, I think all of us are getting to the stage now, with the costs and everything involved, we have to make a decision and the decision that is made and the quicker it is made the better it will be for the whole of the people of Jersey.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

In view and in light  of  the fact there has been considerable vacillation from the Council of Ministers, I expect to accept it. If we were to start again on another area, is there any likelihood that this would be completed by the time of the next elections, where we could in fact start all over again?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We cannot leave it too long because the present hospital is deteriorating anyway. We are going to have to spend a lot of money on the existing hospital to keep it going while a new hospital, wherever that may be, is being constructed.

The Connétable of Grouville :

How long will it take if Deputy Labey 's proposal goes through and we rule out the existing site? How long before we get a new site agreed and planning permission for that site?

Director General, G.H.E.: Can I answer that?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Probably not in light of yes, go on.

Director General, G.H.E.:

It would be after the next elections.

The Connétable of Grouville :

No commencement of actual building would take place until 2022 at the earliest.

Director General, G.H.E.: Not a chance.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

That is very enlightening. Minister, and your whole team, I thank you for coming in today and giving us some great answers.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Thank you, Chairman.

[15:38]