Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure - 3 September 2019

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister of Infrastructure

Tuesday, 3rd September 2019

Panel:

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (in the Chair) Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour , The Minister for Infrastructure

Deputy H.C. Raymond of Trinity , Assistant Minister for Infrastructure

Mr. J. Rogers, Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment

Mr. P. Ahier , Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings

Ms. E. Richardson-Calladine, Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment Mr. D. Berry, Assistant Director, Liquid Waste, Growth, Housing and Environment

Mr. G. Forrest, Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment Mr. T. Dodd, Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment

Mr. J. Littlewood, Head of Finance Business Partnering, States Treasury and Exchequer Ms. E. Littlechild, Director of Operations, Growth, Housing and Environment

[13:37]

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (in the Chair):

Thank you for coming in. Thank you, Minister. I will be chairing the meeting in the absence of the Chair and the Vice-Chair. I have sat myself at this end literally because I am full of a cold so do not want to infect anyone. Everyone is gathered around anyway. Before we start, we will just go around to state our names. What we will do is we will just state our names around the table for the moment and as officers come in for different parts, just say their name and that is great, fantastic. So I am Deputy Kirsten Morel , member of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure.

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour :

I am Sadie Le Sueur -Rennard, Constable of St. Saviour .

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier : Deputy Inna Gardiner , St Helier No. 3.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Gordon Forrest, Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Phillip Ahier , Principal Property Manager, Jersey Property Holdings.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Deputy Kevin Lewis , Minister for Infrastructure.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Hugh Raymond, Deputy Minister for Infrastructure.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

John Rogers, Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment. I hesitated again.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Right, we are going to start, Minister, talking about foreshore encroachment from Jersey Property Holdings, so we will start there. So, Minister, do you consider that the foreshore encroachment policy that has been imposed on some land owners along the foreshore to be a fair policy?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, there is a review taking place that should be ready by the end of the year. There is an awful lot of work with Property Holdings and the law officer's department. I will hand you over to Phil who is the

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I am happy for it to be handed over in a second but would you mind the question is fairly simple, do you consider it to be a fair policy, you as Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would rather wait for the results before

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So, you are not commenting right now?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, it will be the end of the year.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Yes, just to add really I think it was finally 849 of the complaints recalled. We spoke about the need to establish the land site boundary. When we met earlier in the year in the informal hearing, we explained that work was being done on that and hoped to be completed by the end of the year. That is in progress and that is our plan, to complete that work and then to report to the Minister and to see as a result of that whether the policy is amended in any way.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

When we have spoken to different people about the policy, there was consideration that they felt that there had been a lack of fairness in the way that it was delivered, half the owners have different settlements asked of them, this sort of thing. Is that something that you acknowledge and is that something you will review?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

I did not recall that being a specific finding of the complaints report. I think they spoke about the 2 complainants, the feeling was that they had perhaps been identified earlier than other people who were encroaching. I think that was as a result of us being approached to engage in a transaction to allow the property to be sold. I do not recall any general view that different parties had been treated differently.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Do you think yourself, having been involved, that parties are treated differently?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: No.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Great. Minister, do you consider it right or just to apply a new policy retrospectively to land owners, some of whom may not have made the encroachment themselves?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, I would rather wait to the end of the year when the full report is in and I will consider that with officers. I do not want to pre-judge anything that may come out of that. We have got 2 areas here. As well as the Property Holdings side, we have also got the Infrastructure side where we maintain and, in some places, alter the sea wall defences.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): What is relevant about that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, we have 2 areas of interest there. The foreshore. Obviously, there have been encroachments up and to, and including on top of, the sea walls which could be problematic.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

From an engineering perspective as well.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Absolutely.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

We found it interesting as we have spoken to people about this when the foreshore was transferred from the Crown to the States of Jersey. It was noted that Jersey Property Holdings' policy on the foreshore encroachments was not in keeping with the spirit of that contract, so between the Crown and the States of Jersey. In that contract, it says that: "Any right of assets or exploitation exercised as a matter of long standing, habitual and recognised custom by the general public of the Island or by any member thereof shall be and shall remain unaffected by this contract or gifts session and transfer." Basically, it was saying that whatever was going on before up to this point in this contract should be allowed to carry on without any penalty. What do you say to that? Why did the Property Holdings seem to go against that contract in itself?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think there is an interpretation there.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

One second.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

I am not really sure that is right because I think encroachments had taken place with some of them having existed for a long time but I do not think there is no prescriptive title when land is in Crown ownership. Therefore, I do not think it was right to say that at the point of transfer suddenly those encroachments were just expected.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

How do you square that with this contract that states that: "Any right of access or of exploitation, and we are talking about stairways so we talked about right of access, exercised as a matter of long standing, habitual and recognised custom by the general public of the Island or by any member, this shall remain unaffected." How do you square your interpretation with the actual

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: Well, I think when we are talking about the general public

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Can I just stop that is a very legal question and we do not, I believe, have representation here.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

These people were asking people to pay huge sums of money and

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Well, these people

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

this was the contract that they signed. So I am just asking, does the department have a view on the contract that they signed?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have a view but we take a legal advice from our law officers. There is no law officer present here.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

You must have taken this advice before you first approached a single Islander about it, so you should know what that advice is without having to have a law officer here.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have taken that but you are asking for the view of one of my officers who is not a lawyer.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

No, but he has spoken because he is an officer who

Deputy I. Gardiner :

What is the advice that you received? What is the policy?

[13.45]

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, that is being challenged now through the administrative review panel and the law officers are looking at that advice. We do not work outside the auspices of what the law officers ask us to do because that is not in our interest, it is not in the public interest.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It stands to reason that before any officer of this department spoke to a single member of the public about how much they should pay or should not pay for the encroachments that they had decided whatever encroachments, these officers must have taken legal advice before approaching the members of the public. Therefore, they must they will not have had a lawyer necessarily with them every time they spoke to a member of the public because as you say you need the legal advice there so the officers must have known what they approached in terms of member of the public with in their minds as to respect of this contract. They must have had a view on that and I am asking what that view is.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: That legal opinion was given on those times.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): What was that legal opinion?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: But that is not

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Well, the property does not enjoy a contractual right on that staircase. If the party wishes to have that as a permanent arrangement and to be able to sell the property on and for the purchaser to have that contractual private right that a contract has to be part and is a fair consideration.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Were you given legal opinion as to the actual contract between the Crown and the States of Jersey?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: I cannot

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Sorry?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: I am really not in a position as well, sorry.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So that means you cannot remember, you do not know or you were not given

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

I do not think that was a matter that we addressed. It was dealing with this particular

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So it never in your mind, it was not ever an issue as to what the actual contract between the Crown and the States of Jersey was?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: I do not think it was an issue that arose.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

What I would suggest, if it has been given legal advice we would like to receive a copy of it if possible. The legal advice has not been given, maybe something should be addressed.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think that is a fair point that we can do.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I ask, Minister, do you consider that due to apparent discrepancies for determining the foreshore boundaries are not showing where the foreshore is, that is a matter for argument then? That those discrepancies should have been addressed prior to seeking compensation payments for land owners?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, this is something that is being looked into now and there are people from Property Holdings and the law officer's department working at exactly what is where. Someone has been employed to do this piece of work which we will be receiving towards the end of the year and then a decision will be made.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

How many years has this been going on for, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

How many years? Well, probably since well, not that long because the land belonged to the Crown and the Crown passed that over to the public of Jersey whom we represent.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): In what year?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: 2015.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So it has been going for 4 years and you are still telling me that you have to wait? For you as Minister of this department, you have to wait for that review to take place to have a view yourself?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This work has just come I do not want to prejudge what will come out of this. So we will wait for the report to come through and then it will be given just consideration.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Minister, it was brought to our attention that Property Holdings charged land owners more for the valuations than they cost to undertake.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: In one case, yes, there was a I think it was £800.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I cannot hear you, perhaps you can remove your hand from your mouth so I can hear you.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: I think it was £800 difference in

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Why was that?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Well, it was a negotiated settlement. We took valuation advice and the figure that was agreed was marginally more than the valuation advice, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Why did you even put in a figure that was higher?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Because the land had been encroached. It is a settlement matter and

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

But this was for the cost of the valuation. A valuation is just a simple fixed price.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

No, the valuation was for the purpose of us taking advice on the value that we should negotiate. That was to our benefit, an independent advisory paper if you like, report, but that does not bind 2 parties to negotiate at that level. In the end a settlement was reached and a figure was and the contract was passed at that level.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Minister, do you agree that planning obligation agreements making land owners jointly responsible for maintenance of the sea walls to be a useful tool for ringfencing funds as opposed to seeking compensation payments? For working and compromising and working together rather than against each other?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Would you like to expand on that?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Do you think working together with the land owners would be more productive?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Land owners, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Well, the people charged for these encroachments? If you do not mind, I would like to know what your thoughts are on it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say the land owners, we are the land owner, that is the whole point.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

In this case I meant the property owners next to

The Minister for Infrastructure: The Island that we administer.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Do you think it would be better to take a more cooperative approach with them rather than the

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think we need tidying up with planning permission to start with, that you could go away on holiday, I could apply for planning permission if I was your neighbour to build across your land. I mean, we need some kind of strict control that nobody may put in a planning application unless it is proven that they own the land. It has discrepancies that have gone on for too long. This is what needs part of the thing is tidying up.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So proving who owns the land is a good starting point. If I just take you back to the question I asked you just before

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This is what we are doing with this review.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Would it not have been better to address prior to seeking compensation payments the actual knowledge of where the boundary was, so knowing who owned the land first, would that not have been better?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It would be better to establish who owns the land before it is built on, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Before asking for compensation payments?

The Minister for Infrastructure: It should not have been built on.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

However, we do not know which aspect of the land was built on because there is a question of where that boundary lies?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it was quite clear there was encroachment.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

I think we have to contest that. I mean, we put our case forward as to what land we believed the public owned and the other parties are perfectly within their rights to oppose that claim and put in a different claim, but it was accepted that that was the boundary position.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

What kind of position do you think those parties were in from a financial position compared to the financial might of the States of Jersey? You put in a claim saying this is where we believe the boundary is, how difficult do you think it would be as an individual property owner to fight or to oppose that perspective?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Well, unfortunately it has to be it is a factual matter. We believed those points agreed

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So it is a matter of argument, not necessarily a factual matter. Any boundary can be argued over.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

It can, but we took advice on where the boundary position was, that was the advice that we were given. I think we cannot really start to revise that position because we believe the financial position of the party that has encroached renders a different outcome.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Given that you would not revise that position, you are saying the only way to revise that position would be through a court essentially, through taking it to court?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings: Yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Again, I ask the Deputy Minister this time, compared to the financial might of the States of Jersey, what position do you think these property owners next to the foreshore, what position do you think they are in compared to given they would be unlikely to have the financial might

The Minister for Infrastructure: I cannot talk about specific cases.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I am not asking I have not asked you about specific cases.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am talking generally but often as not, it is the people who have built on the land seek clarification from us and not the other way around. So that is quite a difference.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

In these cases do you think they sought clarification?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Which cases? I cannot talk about specifics.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

All of these foreshore encroachment cases, was it the case that they sought clarification from the department?

The Minister for Infrastructure: I believe one of them was.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Generally, the cases that come forward are when people are selling and it can often be the case that the purchaser's lawyer picks up there is a problem and the property simply cannot sell until the public has participated in a contract. We then arrive at where we believe the boundary line is, the extent of the foreshore, and we find that there is an encroachment that has taken place. The Minister has to make a decision: do we simply give the land away and the public gets nothing or is a fair value assessed and the gain to the party that is benefited from the land, they are gaining an enhanced property that they can then sell and the public is getting consideration for the land it has lost?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

All the work that is being done now that you cannot talk about, this will cover everything and when we know at the end of the year, this will have dotted the i's and crossed the t's, there should be a clear-cut review of what is happening and what is going to happen?

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is my desire, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : No, you

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is what we have asked for.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No matter what your desire is because we need to know. So everything that is being done now that you cannot talk about until the end of the year, until it all comes to fruition, that will have dotted the i's and crossed the t's and every question will be answered?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Unless it is slightly differently, Sir. As I said, one of the key recommendations of the complaints board was to establish the land boundary because that had not yet been done. So on a case by case basis we were doing that, but basically the complaints panel were saying they felt around the whole Island we should be able to say what the land side extent of the foreshore was.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Is not that what you are doing now?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Yes, that is what we are doing now. That is what we are doing now. The second aspect is whether that will change how we approach encroachments. Then when we have our foreshore encroachment policy and it is saying once we have established that line and we know the amount of land behind the sea wall, whether that will lead to that policy fundamentally changing as to how we assess encroachments. I think until we know the extent of that land, that is a discussion to have with the Minister. So we cannot

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We are not going to be any further advanced really?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Well, I think we will. What I am saying is I think it is first of all about a piece of information to capture, that research to do and to see the extent of the land behind the foreshore. Once we know that, it is then a detailed process of

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We have been waiting 4 years for this and we still might not have the clear-cut result so we have to wait another 4 years possibly.

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Well, I do not see any reason why it would be 4 years. I am just really trying to clarify what the output is and what the process we are going through.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Okay, thank you.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Do we have points of reference or objectives of this review somewhere as a panel?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): A terms of reference for what, sorry?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Terms of reference what you are

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It was an action from the administrative review of this process. The administrative review I think was last year under Eddie's term of office, was it not? There are some outcomes of that and those are what we will be doing.

The Minister for Infrastructure: April 2018.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

To kick off the review, you must have had the terms of reference for that review?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The terms of reference the Minister's review was a challenge by individuals about the foreshore process and our policy under the previous Minister. The outcome of that administrative review gave some recommendations and we have adopted those recommendations and we are delivering them. Therefore, it is not a 4-year delay. From that point, we have been taking this work I think to make it more transparent, open and fairer. I think we have to represent the public and we have to be fair and reasonable with people who are leading this unfortunate position. Let us be the challenges here have been long standing, perhaps mistakes and challenges with boundaries and assumptions where people have bought in good faith with legal advice that perhaps has not been as robust as it should have been. Unpicking all that, if it is a 20, 30-year timeline it is a very challenging thing which is why the policy was only transaction to be doing this work. So we did not get people who finished up suffering and having to pay for that. So we have not been aggressive in that regard as a department. Our policy was passive and it was on transaction of those properties. However, I think in this overall review of the whole thing, we can get a quantum and scale of this and make sure that we are not being Draconian in some areas and we offer a fairness which I think the public should be offering.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Minister, did it strike you this is really going back to my previous question as a bit late to be running this review? Surely it would have made sense, again, to establish the boundaries before approaching a single person for compensation for any encroachments?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, as the Director General just said, this was a result of the review in April 2018. If things will be complete by the end of this year then a decision will be made.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Surely it does not take the review panel to make you think: "Hold on, before we approach people for money, we should find out where the boundaries lie?"

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We did that on an individual basis when there was probably some other transaction and the legal profession contacted us. Instead of doing it on a piecemeal basis, we are doing a more global

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Would you say that were you in office, were you Infrastructure back then?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I was.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Would you say that there was a general sense well, were you did you have responsibility for Property Holdings back in 2015?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: January 2016 was my responsibility for Property Holdings.

The Minister for Infrastructure: That came from Treasury.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

What would you say was the thinking behind approaching individual property owners who at the point of transaction as opposed to first of all establishing the boundary around the Island full stop, why do you think that position what was your thinking there?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: It was not my thinking. So as .

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): What was the Department's thinking?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. My view on that was it was a slight I think, an unawareness of the scale of this because I think it was it looked like extraordinary elements of encroachment and I do not think the scale of this perhaps was realised at that time. This came to pass when one of them says: "Oh, we have a legal challenge on here, how do we deal with that?" Then that is how it basically all was done because the land was not in our ownership prior to that point. I think it is like many things: you will unlock it and then it is iterated.

[14.00]

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It was not therefore it was not a planned approach?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It was not an aggressive: "How can we make loads of money out of people who live in the foreshore", approach, it was an approach which was this was a problem, there is another problem and then I think the review to do the whole thing is a really sensible thing that came out of the administrative review panel's findings.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Would you therefore say one way of characterising this was the department was suffering from one problem to another problem until finally subject to review in 2018?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think that is very harsh and unfair.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

They were your words: "One problem and another problem", they were your words.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No, they were not. No, this is where the scale of the foreshore encroachment based on the legal advice we have has been far it appears to be far bigger than it was originally envisaged. That is not stumbling from one problem to another.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

You are the one who said from one problem to another.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I did not say stumbling.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

You did not say stumbling, but you did say from one problem to another.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It does feel that it was a reaction more than a planned approach and now we are going towards making a planned approach. Because it has been reaction, I am really wondering how much weight has been given to the Crown contract from 2015. Basically, if you are talking about the base of base of base and I know this is interpretation, but if interpretation has been done and it just was a reaction to deal with sale, we might need to really go back and to see the advice before going any further.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that is a fair point. If that work has not been done, we will make sure it has been. I think the law officers should be giving us that advice. I do not know if that was given in 2015 but we can check that. If not, it will be done.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Well, they should have it because if we have it

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Because it was a reaction and it just happened and it was all new and nobody really set any plan, it might just maybe not, I do not know but this is something

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Going back to the point you raised about a more partnering arrangement about maintaining sea defences, the challenge to that is sea defences can be enormously expensive and a massive liability and risk, which is why it sits with me as a government department. I would be very concerned if we were putting that on to third parties who then would not have the wherewithal because the sea defence maintaining it in terms of keeping it clean and tidy and the pointing that was thing re-doing the sea defence in terms of climate change and increasing it is a multi-billion-pound operation. I think that is where the challenge is there. I think there is a housekeeping element to it, but the real challenge of maintaining a sea defence and the risks that that not just to that property, but the surrounding properties is something that needs to stay within government or certainly within a government entity.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Minister, you referred to the 2 elements. Do you feel there is enough joined up working between the planning and the infrastructure remits of the department for Growth, Housing and Infrastructure?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The point I was making was regarding the planning permission, not necessarily between our 2 departments. People applying for planning should have proof that the land is theirs. That does not really involve infrastructure in that respect.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Should it therefore be on the planning department to ask the question: "Is the land yours?" first?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Well, yes, I would say.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Is that something you might raise with your ?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, yes, it has been mentioned in the past and I will mention it again. It is the proof that the land is yours before it is built on otherwise this would not arise.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

As Minister, are you made directly aware of any planning applications involving sea defences?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Am I made aware? No.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Do you consider that you should be aware of sea defences ?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If it is brought to our attention then yes. If I get anything from Property Holdings I would be made aware.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : No, that is not what you said.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): What is that?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You said will we not get, so that was not the question.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It was the question, the question is do you think you should be made aware of planning applications regarding sea defences? So, do you think your officers should tell you as a matter of course they have got a planning application regarding sea defences?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Can I just clarify

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): I asked the Minister a question.

The Minister for Infrastructure: I said yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Yes, you are happy with that?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

When you say regarding sea defences, is that the construction and maintenance of sea defences or building over them?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

In this case I am talking about when there is planning applications from both infrastructure department and land owners in the sea defences.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Okay. The land owner stuff probably is not at the moment but the sea defences stuff is all agreed with the Minister. Therefore. whether planning is needed or not is nuanced, so it depends on what the sea defence is. If it is a make good or maintain an existing one it does not need the planning approval, but the Minister will sign off the capital works. If it is a planning application for a building within the proximity of a sea defence that will not be highlighted to the Minister at present.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Given the history here, does the Minister feel that he should be made aware of such background?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If it is in very close proximity, yes. There is also planning applications that would be required. If you notice what the team have done down at Beaumont in heightening the wall, that obviously would be subject to a planning application.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, it would, absolutely. Are you aware of any planning applications at the moment from the infrastructure department for sea wall defences?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have one with it is complete down in Beaumont. We have not done another section

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have just finished the storm gate behind which had an application. Generally speaking, the methodology of sea defences maintenance, any major increases in height of sea defences were the key the highest priority taken. Looking at the overall strategy with respect to climate change and the sea wall rising, that we are going to see undoubtedly.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Just to finish off this section. Minister, going back to that review which you said is going to report later this year, can you be more specific about when it will report?

Manager, Principal Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

We are planning for the end of the year and probably envisage meeting early next year in January 2020.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Therefore, I can expect to see that review published in January 2020 for the Island to see?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Thereabouts, yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Can we by 31st January 2020 ?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have an exact date but if it is ready then you can have it.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I am being quite generous here. Your officer said by the end of this year, sent to you by January

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously, by the end of this year then obviously law officer's advice et cetera, you know, then it will be ready to be made available.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Thank you, we will move on from that to vehicle roadworthiness, so we might need to swap officers. Thank you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have Gordon Forrest who is head of D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards).

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Brilliant. Hi, Gordon, thank you for coming. When do you hope to have completed the options appraisal for the roll out of testing of the cars?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Right, well, we were originally looking at the end of February next year 2020 but there has been a slight delay with the P.Q.Q., the pre-tender process where we had a lot of interest but no one responded. We have gone out to the industry locally and in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and we hope to get it under way end of October. Therefore, it is probably a 6-month process, November, December, April next year.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Sorry, did you say you have gone to the U.K.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, we have gone out .

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I thought you said you had gone to the U.K.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: We have gone out locally and to the U.K.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : So you have gone out to the U.K.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

That is what I just said and you said no.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Sorry, I thought you meant only the U.K.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, no, no, no. So you have also gone out to the U.K.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Absolutely, yes, yes. Bearing in mind we had no responses to the pre-tender.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I ask how it was publicised or how did you verify that people directly respond?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: It was done through the States of Jersey procurement portal.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : So the U.K. would get the contract?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, not at all. No, absolutely not.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

To be able to see this on the portal you need to be registered, because we do not have any previous experience of testing cars, maybe the suppliers are not registered there? I am not sure, I am just checking.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, that is possible but the portal is widely read and a lot of companies are aware and there was a lot of interest. There was a lot of interest from local companies and the U.K. but no one responded to the pre-tender.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Have you any idea why? Because if there is a lot of interest, once they have the details they backed off. Therefore, why did they back off?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, we are not sure but we have gone out locally again and to the U.K. and we have targeted certain companies and we are expecting them to respond to the tender.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Did you go again through the portal or did you approach the local companies that you know are able to do this direct?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We were advised to go directly to certain well, to companies that we thought could do the job because really this is not testing, this is an options appraisal to find out the best way for the Island to be testing vehicles. We have targeted 9 or 10 different companies and we are about to launch the tender.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I ask what kind of companies you targeted? Obviously, without naming companies but just I am thinking consultants and things like that.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, large consultancy companies, smaller ones locally as well. We have had to go around quite a few to gauge interest and to have one to ones and sit with them and explain what we are looking for, explain the process. That has helped us identify who might be able to do it. Perhaps I think originally there might have been a bit of lack of understanding of what we were looking for.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Obviously, that pushes it back perhaps to April 2020. I recall 2022 off the top of my head that we said we would be applying to the Vienna Convention?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

2022 which is possibly looking like 2023 now depending on the option that is chosen.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : But it could go to the U.K.?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, there is a possibility, yes. It is a scoring process, it has to be absolutely transparent and if it is felt that a U.K. company could do it better than a local company then one would expect it to go to the U.K. However, there is a lot of confidence that local companies would be able to do this.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Thank you.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I could not help but notice the budget had gone from £5 million as we were told when we voted on this last year to £6 million in the government plan for this piece of work for the vehicle testing. I just wondered why there is an extra million?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: I was under the impression it was always around £6 million.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

No, no, no. I mean, I did have a complaint back then when we were meant to vote on it, but the information from officers was inconsistent, but one consistency was £5 million.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: I will say it is too early to be precise about that.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The challenge with this is for the public. There is going to be a challenge and you reviewed that last year and put a cap on it. Now, our goal and endeavour is to try to make that charge full cost of cost recovery cover the whole cost of the process. Therefore, we are hoping that there is not a cost to Government beyond the charge in terms of using the service. It is a purely user pays charge. I think until we have gone through the process of how we are going to do it, who we are going to do it with, who we are going to partner with, that it is really hard to get that number nailed down.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Ministers put in a bid for £6 million and we were told the States Assembly will not agree to this at £5 million, so somebody somewhere has decided we need an extra million pounds. There must be a reason behind it or are you just covering your bums? Where has the actual million pounds come from then?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it has come from I do not know, it is a contingency. I was not

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Well, you asked for it, you must know.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I was not aware of the full details of that. It may be a contingency, we will find out and get back to you.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Are you suggesting that you approached a government plan by not knowing the details behind it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not get under the tyres and do all the testing myself.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

No, no, no, I am not asking that, I am asking why you have asked for an extra million pounds?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We will find out all the details and get back to you on that.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Why do not you know the details, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure: I do not know the details.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I see it as my role in the Scrutiny to understand the details of the government plan. I need to know why you are asking for the money that you are asking for, that is my role. Your job, before I get to mine, is to know why the officers are asking for the extra million pounds. Why do you not know that detail?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It will be a contingency, I will get back to you on that.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): That is a very poor answer.

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is the answer I am afraid.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, well, it is yours, you live with it. We know from previous correspondence that the department is working at full man power and resource capacity at present. How do you intend to address this so you can actively promote the online defective vehicle reporting tool as you understand you are not widely publicising this as present due to limited resources and man power?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Right, well we have we are one traffic officer down at the moment, he is on long term sick leave.

[14.15]

Once we have resolved that we will be back up to maximum numbers. We have taken on an extra vehicle examiner to help with the moped and light bike testing, which we started in April and that is progressing well. When we have the available resource, we fully intend to address the defective vehicle reporting more than we do. We still look at it and we still act upon it, but we do not act upon it 100 per cent at the moment.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Therefore, I mean, while it is using all its resource, the department is not at full man power yet?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Well, only because we have an issue at the moment.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Any other questions on roadworthiness? That will be it for roadworthiness. It is good to start that one early. The argument is all about sustainable transport and I do not know if that is your area.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: That is not me, no.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Gordon, thank you.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards, Growth, Housing and Environment: Would you mind, Chairman, if I ?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

No, that is why we put it up. They were further down, I brought it up if you want a quick getaway.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Would you like me to introduce myself for the record? Tristan Dodd, Head of Transport for G.H.E.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Excellent. Minister, given the recent debates and subsequent adoption of paragraph C insofar as this is related to the free buses debate that we have, which ended up ultimately asking for a sustainable transport policy by the end of the year. Paragraph C said: "To research, consult upon and identify funding for sustainable transport strategy including safe routes for walking and cycling and provisions for those with impaired mobility by the end of 2019." Are you able to advise whether the department has begun this work and how far it has progressed?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes. Have you got any detail on that?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so within the States now there is the strategic policy unit and we have seconded one of our transport planners into that unit and he is now progressing with that plan. We are expecting to have some consultation in October and we are aiming to hit the States' deadline for the end of the year.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I ask from a cost perspective, do you know how much this is costing, this piece of work?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

At present, where we are at the moment we are still scoping the work out. It is a cost within the department already because we already carry the salary of our staff. There will undoubtedly be some consultant's reports to help inform it because that is the only way you can deliver a piece of work of this size so quickly. But no, I do not have details of what those costs will be at present.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

That is fine, it is just to get a sense because I know some Islanders particularly with regard to the carbon neutral list, I know some Islanders have been concerned about the costs of undertaking these pieces of work as well as the cost of the work once it is done.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think it is important always with these and I know Scrutiny feels the same that these things should be as far as possible evidence led and so it is important you collect that evidence to make sure when we go on to spend the government's money in implementing the plan that we get the biggest bang for our buck.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Absolutely. Minister, we are aware that an electric double-decker bus is being trialled to see if electric buses are suitable for Jersey. Apparently, after Guernsey's trial of a similar bus it was deemed electric buses were too large for the Island's rows. Do you see this being a problem here in Jersey and did you consider trialling a smaller electric bus?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This was the bus that was available and I understand it is marginally smaller than the existing double- deckers. They would go on the same route as the existing double deckers which is the airport route, number 15. Reports we have back from the public of the they love it and drivers are very keen to learn how to drive it. One of the senior drivers is training other drivers how to drive this electric bus and reports have come back they are delighted with it.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

When you say it is marginally smaller

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: We are talking maybe an inch and a half if that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is still pretty large then?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Width, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

It is still a very large vehicle for Jersey roads?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Which is why it is on the airport route, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, because if we are being a little bit on the honest side, the buses at this moment should carry a P30.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, a P30 has got to be off the road at certain times so it would be

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, but they should because of the route and how they are at the moment, it is

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is very, very difficult to get hold of very, very narrow buses. Very few places have them. I think there is something in Cornwall, obviously Guernsey and Malta but you have to wait for production runs when the companies make smaller buses to get hold of them. Plus it has to be euro 6 compliant with the engines. Plus we are also very wary that we are looking after people with mobility problems, wheelchair users, et cetera, and you need the wider buses to accommodate that. It is a compromise.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Guernsey, they can take people with wheelchairs and stuff on their buses. Where is the difference?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, Guernsey's roads are smaller and Guernsey have a very different approach in terms of footpaths, so they drive on the footpaths. They have a very different approach in terms of transport. There is a challenge with the road network we have in terms of scale and size of buses and it is something that is a constant challenge for us. We have now a bus operator which I think operates a very courteous and very well driven service. Very few complaints about interface with buses compared to what we had 10 years ago when there was a big difference. One of the objectives of running these tests and trial is to challenge the: is it the size of the bus or is it how the bus is driven/ Because the big benefit of the bus is you get 73 cars off the road in theory and it adds hugely to the sustainability of the Island. I understand the threat in terms of the width of vehicles, but we have also to look at how we compromise that. The opportunity we may have if we can scale up we might offer a company who builds a Jersey-sized bus, but if you are doing that you had probably want to build a Guernsey-size bus as well, so there is some commonality there. There are real challenges. I think the key thing for us is let us try it, see how it goes as we did with double-deckers. Kevin was the Assistant Minister when and your Chairman was the Minister when the first double-decker

came back after we would build a bus station that did not handle double-deckers because they did not think they would ever come back. However, we brought them back, trialled it and it was very successful. There is a real balance here and I think the compromise is going to be on the scale and size of the bus and we have to find a probably more technology-based solution to that in terms of digital mapping and tracking vehicles so we can maintain having bigger vehicles on the road, but we are cleverer about it.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

When you say the double-deckers, them being large and, as I said, they should carry a P30 if we are being perfectly honest and upfront. They do not. Now, the Minister has said he would like all the vehicles, all the buses on the Island being electric when you have not used one

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This is all part of the experiment that is now being run.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, you would but that is what we are talking

The Minister for Infrastructure: All being well, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes, so these

The Minister for Infrastructure: If the trial is successful, yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, but these buses are already wide and you said yourself

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This is an experiment. They do have single-decker electric buses as well. It does not have to

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Can I finish?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It does not have to be a double-decker.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Can I finish please?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Certainly.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You have said yourself that the double-deckers are the width and we are having to kind of put up with it because we are doing these trials. How are you going to get electric buses to go through the countryside if all the buses are going to be this wide? If, as you have just said, you cannot get smaller buses, how is that going to affect the rest of the Island?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think that is a big challenge.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Are we going to have to put up with wider buses on roads?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that is a big challenge and one of those trade-offs we are going to have. So you can make

when the new contract started we bought some buses called Bluebirds and they went to Victoria Village and areas like that. The capacity of the bus was strict straight away because of the popularity of that bus service and they were too small. So there is a real balance between trying to promote sustainable transport and more buses versus the size and scale of them. The electrification of those buses is an opportunity for us to speak to manufacturers and perhaps get a bespoke bus for the Island. However, that would require a different contract, a more long term contract with our supplier and perhaps us being a bit braver in terms of our procurement. We may be able to buy a bus which will have a different size to suit those needs of quite a rural community and rural road network whereas on the spine of the one and the 15 where we get the majority of our buses and our service, I think the bigger the better as long as it is within safe provision and we have not had problems with the double-deckers since they have been instigated.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : So far at least.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The drivers are phenomenal. I came back on the airport one recently and they put them within an inch of everything. They are amazing.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Sometimes they go an inch too far.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Do you work in cooperation with Guernsey because they do they are all trying to move electric. Do you have any cooperation with Guernsey?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We work a lot with Guernsey, we share the same contractor. The contractor that delivers the bus service in Jersey delivers the bus service in Guernsey and we deal on a monthly basis with their driver vehicle standards and we have a good rapport with Guernsey. Guernsey's contractual set is very different, they have just procured a brand new fleet.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

No, about finding electric buses.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Guernsey have a challenge with electricity at the moment so they need a cable but it is something we are very happy to work with Guernsey. Guernsey have just bought a new bus fleet which is diesel so they have got a life on them.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Can I speak? I think the problem for Guernsey at the moment given the nature of the recent procurement and smaller islands is at the moment the electric buses that are being manufactured as standard are the larger width buses because they are the ones that they can sell into the U.K. and across Europe. This is really at the beginning of this story which is why this is a trial. It is really difficult to get hold of electric buses at the moment because everyone is looking to trial them. All the towns want to have a trial with a bus like our Island has. It is going to develop over the next few years and you do not buy a new fleet typically in one go. What you want to do is have a mixed stage fleet so you are replacing a number of vehicles each year, but not going out and just buying a whole fleet in one year, which would mean you will have replaced it in 12 years' time in the same year. It is getting that mixture right in terms of the procurement and making it attractive to manufacturers and look at providing

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Although, if you are going to be buying vehicles the manufacturer will have no interest in making a smaller vehicle for a smaller road because there would be no need, because we are going to be daft enough to buy the bigger buses for our little roads.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It depends on how you package up the procurement if we go down that route. If you offer the manufacturer a certainty over a number of years of if he machines up for a smaller bus to be able to manufacturer a set number each year, then that could be attractive for them but there is some work to do before we get down to that level of detail.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

In the meantime, we are going to provide bigger buses?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No. Well, sorry, in the meanwhile we will continue using the standard size buses on the routes that can support them such as number 15, the number 12, those sorts of routes which have wide enough roads. The other Island roads, until there is an appropriate vehicle available for them will have to wait to receive

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So we are going to be a little while before we have a fleet of buses that are all electric?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think the thing to remember is what you get in terms of reduction of overall carbon footprint. If you are looking at carbon reduction per passenger on those big routes out west that carry a very high amount of passengers, you are maximising your benefit. Buses, whether they are diesel or not, are still more environmentally friendly than cars. One of the great things is that the bus flagship has increased since last year already up to it has increased an additional 5.5 per cent and we are expecting to hit 5 million passengers this year. The popularity of the bus service continues to grow. That is reduction in our carbon footprint.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

We have been told in Southampton they have external type of air cleaning on top of their buses as the bus is going around. So sometimes they basically

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Charge.

No, clear air as well and it is something that you considered

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Is this out of the other side or is this for the people in the bus?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Well, the top of the bus is attached to yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

As I understand and I have not looked it up, but we have talked about this, no, it is for cleaning the external environment. As the bus is driving round, it cleans the air of carbon.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think that type of technology is pilot technology which might be done in conjunction with the university. There are a lot of measures like that. So in the production of concrete now they are experimenting with cement which will actively take carbon out of the atmosphere, but that is not a wide scale product yet, there are people looking at specific projects with specialist manufacturers and universities typically.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

At the same time, if it is some time we continue to do this with all buses we can

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, absolutely and we do we look at the trade press all the time and follow what is

[14.30]

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Have you missed this one?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

One of the exciting opportunities we have in conjunction with Diesel(?) Jersey through the environment regulation team and to ourselves there is a mesh of 200 air sampling units going to be provided predominantly in a town environment and close to schools as well. That is going to be rolled out between now and Christmas and in that roll out that will give us a far better understanding of pollution and perhaps give us some real data, really quality data in terms of where there are issues

with traffic and transport. I think that will be a great benefit for us to justify the investment of electric vehicles and

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is also that subtle difference between Jersey and Guernsey. In Guernsey it is Guernsey own the buses as where in Jersey, Liberty Bus own the buses and should they which they can transfer buses to their fleets in the U.K. and sell them off internally if you like and bring in other standards of buses. They are very progressive and very full of ideas.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Even if it is not Island appropriate?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am talking about bringing in special buses. If electric buses were available they could bring them in and transfer these buses elsewhere.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

In terms of the electric bus, there is about there is at least 3 different sort of models that have been trialled throughout Europe and we do not know which one will win out. So in Scandinavia you had been using these opportunity charged buses where the battery is mounted on the roof and you have like a lamppost which hangs over the bus stop which charges it up as it goes. So it has a smaller battery, less weight in the vehicle and it just charges on its route. You have for the model we have got which is a bus which a new one could potentially do 250 miles on a charge. There are also people looking at hydrogen. With hydrogen you only have to fill up the bus once a week. So we do not know which technology is going to come through.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, that is not the problem here, it is the width of these buses that are on our roads.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

If you can manage with smaller batteries, the opportunity to manufacture a smaller bus it could potentially.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have not got the huge engine to worry about.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Somebody told us that our buses might run only for 6 hours, is it correct?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The 250 is about 100 miles sorry, that is the figure for the space of the art brand new buses. Obviously, the one we are trialling is a slightly older one and I could not tell you what the state of its battery is, but I would hope we would get a good service out of it.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Would the driver be happy to run on something that is 6 hours, is that challenging?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, buses typically work a longer day than that. That could potentially create an issue but obviously, if you are going to procure something you need to procure something that is fit for the service you want to offer.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I would like to ask on this P30 bit because it is a good point. Constable, buses do not have P30s. Out of interest because I do not know anything about this, what is the kind of legality of the buses on the roads then?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Sure thing. They were exempt for the reasons I mentioned earlier, we cannot take them off the road during rush hour. But regarding P30s, they are not handed out willy-nilly because pressure is put on companies to get smaller vehicles whenever possible. We are not just worried about the width, we are worried about the weight because obviously the team are responsible for roads and infrastructure and we would like to keep the weight down as much as possible.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

So the P30 test is: is it in the public interest and the bus service is in the public interest so that is the

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, it was purely out of interest. Talking about how many P30s are there on the roads?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Four hundred.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Gordon has gone.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): About 400.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

For something small not about empty buses, are we looking into somehow pushing tourist buses to be swapped to something more healthier? I mean, I am talking about the coaches running around the Island through summer but may just

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Some of them are.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Most of them are, most of them are. Is there anything going in that area because it is just ?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

They have to be maintained to a high standard because they are tested periodically.

Deputy I. Gardiner : No, it is not about this.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Not for emissions.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, the emissions there is blue buses and other orange buses

The Minister for Infrastructure: They used to be petrol funnily enough.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Is there anything going around that, can we have any research or suggestion or something?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

A really good point for scrutiny to raise because that is I think a big part of one of the challenges we face is the emissions testing and improving the standards. There is something very quaint about an old bus, but too many old buses and there is an issue with pollution because of the emissions. So there is a balance to be struck and I think it would be interesting to know what your views are on

that because it is a very sensitive and political issue because a coach fleet again suffers from size and scale. Coaches tend to get bigger and bigger and fancier and fancier. The ones we have are fit for purpose, they are really small, they are thin, but they are of an age and that age and the old double-decker bus is not even a P30, it is within width, which is a remarkable state of affairs. It shows you how the world has changed, does it not? So Routemaster is within width.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The regulation of the vehicles that travel on the road come under DBS. However, because we have a wider interest in that and that is in terms of the carbon neutral point of emergency and what is included in the stable transport plan in terms of improving emissions of the vehicles that are on the road, and which standard of any that you would expect and, yes, it is just accessing them.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think we should help with leavers in terms of how is there any can we carrot and stick that, can we incentivise that change.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

One thing I am quite excited about at the moment with lots of vintage vehicles, they can be retrofitted with electric motors from Volkswagen Beetles onwards. That should be an interesting one.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I just ask going back to sustainable transport strategy is being drawn up or is being drawn up, not the 2010 one? You mentioned obviously, and I focus on having to engage consultants, again, without naming names, what kind of consultancies have you approached? Exactly what did any of those kind of contracts tell you?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Not at the present. I mean, within our day to day work we have got a framework contract with W.S.P. which is a large consultancy so there is something that we cannot because obviously we need some assistance, we bring someone over offer them in a bed in the office to work alongside us.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I am thinking do you have sustainable transport consultancies in this or possible

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We worked widely with a range of different consultants over the years from Seastrand to Mott McDonalds to TAS which is the Transport Advisory Service, to W.S.P. There is a whole range of partners we have used in the past to bring different things to the mix depending what we are looking for.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The previous sustainable transport policy does not feel that long ago. It shows you how time flies. But in certain areas we have certain specialist assistance and because there is and I think the foresight of what is next around the corner for vehicles, automated and autonomous vehicles, those are the challenges we need to be looking at because

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Which brings me to my next question. Are you looking as far as you can say or perhaps your policy are you looking at different concepts for mobility, less ownership, private ownership? Are you looking at authority? You know, are these playing into that

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think those are going to be the key strands moving forwards. So the share schemes within buildings or within communities is certainly where the next generation are going. A debate myself and the Ministers have been having is about electric personalised transport and how the rights and wrongs of it and the fact that while we are having that discussion and we differ a bit on that, do we not, in terms of it is here already. There are people coming up and down the front probably illegally on electric unicycles, electric scooters that form electric statements which I think are great but

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: They are illegal.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

They are illegal. So we have then got to think of how do we as a government approach that when there is a danger to them and there is a challenge to them, but there is an enabling function because it is still better as far as I am concerned than a car. So those are the challenges for the sustainable transport policy that is going to be fit for purpose for the next 10 years because in that 10-year period, fundamentally the way people travel will change. We have to change for us to maintain our you know, we have to be carbon neutral by the end of the next decade.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

That is why I asked the question about consultancy and the type of consultancies. My thinking is that you had get the same old, same old. You are not going to get anything new.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, you literate as opposed to transform. I think you need both. You need the basics

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): You need to be realistic.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You have to have that look over the hills position and then have the legislative framework behind that. It is a foresight and it is a different type of consultancy.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

To keep abreast off what is going on we attended so I attended the transport systems symposium in Glasgow a couple of years ago and this January I am going off to something called the Move Conference in London. One of the big things about that is mobility as a service and we are talking to other people who are practitioners in that area.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: We are going to Amsterdam are we not, to meet them?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We are going to Amsterdam, yes, to go and see some of the cycling infrastructure. We have been invited by the Dutch Cycling Embassy, was it not? We received an invitation kindly dragging John and I along to have a look.

The Minister for Infrastructure: There was not much dragging though.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: No, not too much.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The northern Europeans tend to lead on these things so many of those countries have incredible legal position and cultural position in terms of non car-based infrastructure and I think we have to learn a lesson from them. It is an opportunity for us as an Island.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

They also have similar ratios in terms of occupation density which can make it easier to modernise.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: And weather.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

And weather. Just lastly and I am not going to go over the bike subsidy particularly, my views on that are quite clear, but I just want to know we saw last week press going out about the e-bike subsidy coming to an end, this arrangement because it has been popular. I wanted to know what data is the department collecting or planning to collect from this e-bike subsidy?

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You have caught me on the hop there I am afraid, I do not have those details with me. We will be collecting data. Last time we looked at sex, age, the amounts sorry, gender. I will keep that to myself. Gender, age, usage, those type of statistics and we will be benchmarking those against what we have found elsewhere in Europe and in Guernsey. If the data shows that people who do receive an electric bike tends to cycle between 12 and 18 kilometres more than they would do on a conventional pushbike and that they replace between 2 and 4 car trips a week with the bike. Therefore, if you look at some of the statistics that are coming out already, we have a good proportion of the applications coming from urban parishes St. Helier , St. Saviour and also a good proportion of the applications coming from parishes which have new cycle routes created to them such as St. Peter and St. Ouen as well as St. Brelade . You would, therefore, hope we can predict and anticipate that those who people received those bikes would be doing local trips, using the bicycles replacing car journeys hopefully and certainly we would expect people who are running on congested routes from the west would also be doing so. Some of the eastern ones also have a reasonable proportion of applicants.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Will some of this data be trying to find out how many of those bikes have stayed on Island, how many of those bikes have been used on the Island and the amount of use they are getting.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I think we will have to address some of the issues you raised when we spoke last time to this. Yes, we would be looking at the amount of usage and those are the questions we asked last time.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The previous scheme had some flaws in it on its first deliberation but, again, I think if somebody is using an e-bike in France it is still better than them using a car or a taxi or something.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, but it still needs to be subsidised.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

You are absolutely right. That is why we closed and made the system a bit more rigorous. It has definitely supported local bike communities, so people not buying stuff online and it makes sure that those shops selling it have maintenance facilities, so it is not just a one off. The feedback we received last time was transformational things for people who had things who then felt maybe because they were out on a bicycle and people who had passed there are really, really powerful things that happened to people in doing this. Now the range of bicycles are so much more it is a it has been as I have seen already very competent.

[14.45]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Also, people are able to buy second hand bikes, quality serviced electric bikes. You can get them for around £600. So someone of modest means can usually get hold of them now.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

The rest of us have to cope with second hand. Reducing the use of plastics in Jersey we understood the review, that was last week. Let us have a change over, yes. Thank you.

Head of Transport, Growth, Housing and Environment: Thanks very much.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, apologies, one question. I forgot the Chairman had asked for a particular just wondering whether the Minister is contemplating the instruction of a bike sharing scheme like the bikes you see in London?

The Minister for Infrastructure: The Boris bikes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I refuse to use that term. If not, will you

The Minister for Infrastructure: What, bikes or Boris?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I think both. I do not mind bikes, it is the former I do not want. If not will you encourage private sponsorship of such a scheme?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have a really modest version of that with the bus company and folding bikes which can be hired and so forth. The challenge we face and I use them wherever I was in Dublin using the test system there and it is brilliant because what happens is you have other places to go and I think there is potential in Jersey for doing it. We did it many years ago and they all finished up in St. Aubin's harbour I think.

The Minister for Infrastructure: The green bikes, yes.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

There are cities like Cambridge and Oxford where they have non-docking and a more out based system where they just finish up they look like litter in some ways, but I think as it develops and calms down, I think there will be a

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It is also worth looking at cross-rent as a good scheme.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, but there is also a private sector committee that hire to the tourist and the visitor, and so I would love to be able to do it. I am just not sure if we have quite enough destinations within a town which I think is where I certainly use one when I go to other towns.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I think when we spoke about this years ago, as I said in Tennessee you can ride a bike and then put it on the bus.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, that is right.

The Minister for Infrastructure: I can do that with Liberty Bikes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

That would not be feasible here.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We have asked and tried, and the problem goes back to the problems we raised earlier. It is about size and scale and being able to get because in Seattle and Vancouver they have a rack on the bus to do that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Yes, and in Tennessee.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Reducing the use of plastics in Jersey. The panel was pleased to note that the majority of recommendations made now were accepted and have been accepted. However, a recommendation made to the Minister which recommended liaising with Jersey Diary to investigate the feasibility and commercial viability of recycling Jersey's milk cartons was rejected. Are you able to expand on the reasons why this recommendation was rejected? Specifically why it is not considered a priority by Government and then investigate further.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, this is a priority, I think it is problematic with the well, we have done it.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I think that that might not have been a priority from your response.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Guernsey can recycle this.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Yes, they were recycling their milk cartons.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

When we went to Guernsey they were recycling their milk cartons. It seems a bit of a shame that Jersey

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: We looked at this with Sheena Brockie last year.

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, good afternoon. Just for the record so Emma Richardson-Calladine, Recycling Manager.

Director of Operations, Growth, Housing and Environment: Ellen Littlechild, Group Director for Transport.

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, in the Minister's response we did reject this recommendation saying that it was not a priority area for us. There are 2 elements to this. First of all, we did also say it would be included in the scope of the future waste strategy and that is a workstream that our colleagues in the central strategic quality section are looking after. One of my expectations for that piece of work is that we are looking at all of the various material streams that the Island is generating as waste and pretty much every household is generating cartons in some respects. This would be something that is looked at. When we have looked at it in the past, the recycling of these Tetra Paks is possible, but not possible fully and there is a U.K. recycling facility which has increased its capacity fairly recently with this, but again not 100 per cent of the components. That would be cardboard, a plastic, potentially a foil liner as well. Not 100 per cent of those component parts would be recycled and some of that would be sent for energy recovery, which is what we are doing here as a full solution for those cartons that are ending up in the rubbish bin at the moment. We are keeping an eye on the industry in regard to that waste stream, but will be doing more of a formal review of it in regard to the waste policy. As John said, we have looked at it with one of our friends of the department Sheena Brockie and she has been in recent conversations with the dairy about this. My understanding is that their facility has been built around their current process of putting milk into Tetra Paks and it would not be until the point where that facility either needs reviewing or updating that potentially looking at the way milk is packaged would be able to be reviewed.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Or going to the market they could make these packs, it is environmentally friendly?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: Sorry, could you repeat that?

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You said that the way it is done is because of the machinery, but we are also looking for the material that is used to make these milk cartons. If they could find as I say, Guernsey seems to have overcome this slight problem. Their milk cartons can be done, so are you saying that they cannot do

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Guernsey's cartons will be going for partial recycling and partial energy recovery instead of landfill. So when we are looking at the waste hierarchy model of energy recovery what is better than energy recovery, recycling. They are looking and what is worse than all of those is disposal being landfill. Their model is slightly different from ours because of their landfill operation. We are all working towards the same thing, it is pushing it up that model to reduce waste and increase recycling.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Some can be recycled this is Guernsey, some can be recycled and some goes for burning?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

No. No, when they are collecting the cartons for recycling they are exporting them to a specialist recycler. That specialist recycler will be recycling some of the component parts, but that process does not allow for the cartons to be fully recycled. Therefore, the bit of the plastic mush that is produced out of that recycling process, they are unable to recycle that and they will be sending that for energy recovery.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Separate?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Can the dairy here not work on the same principle?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The challenge with the dairy was not about their cartons, it was about could they replace cartons. Therefore, we talked about glass and going back to my childhood and glass, people recycling milk bottles. Or could they go to a plastic lone carton bottle, which then has polyester which can be easily recycled into many different products. Basically, their manufacturing process is highly reliant on the Tetra Pak system so it has been designed around that. The big benefit of Tetra Paks which I did not quite grasp is it comes on a pallet and it is very efficient in terms of its transportation. What was interesting was in conjunction with the lady who has a great view on this, it was like looking at the whole life of the product and the benefit of it including transport, including those elements. That is where on a small island in the middle of the sea we have to take those bigger views.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So swings and roundabouts, what we use and what we gain from the others.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes. Therefore, for us we have a waste plan which is a very efficient and unpolluting plan. We have made the decision to keep the balance based on Emma's advice, which is cartons are better to go into different waste bags at this moment in time. Cartons are complicated. A Pringles box is the worst possible thing to recycle. That is a composite I think of about 4 different elements, and its composites are really challenging in the recycling environment.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I just ask about this future waste strategy? When is that report or when is that going to be delivered?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

In our response to your review, the response was that we aim to lodge a new waste strategy by the end of 2020. Therefore, my understanding is we are still working towards that timeline.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

With regard to the milk cartons, if they were to be sent off to be recycled, what are the economics of that? Do you know I have spoken to you a lot about plastics, you know, there was kind of a benefit maybe Jersey does not realise that the cost of recycling is a very low cost. From the perspective of milk cartons, would that be a large cost to the Island? Would the Island gain money out of that? What would be the cost?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We would have to I do not know at the moment the current economics of if we exported a tonne of waste cartons, what the cost of that to us would be. We would have to carefully consider that. Also the actual material, the composite material that the cartons are made from are not fully recycled and most of it is but there is also the generating waste product for energy recovery, we would need to be looking at that in its entirety to weigh up the benefit to the Island as well as the economics, but environmental benefit of the resources required for the separation, the collection, the processing, the export and then the specialist recycling. In various stages of that model, each of those will have a cost and environmental cost as well, so we would be looking at that quite holistically.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is very interesting. It gets it done 14.56.25 (several inaudible words) so I am not sure whether they are right, maybe they are wrong with what they are doing. Not necessary that they are right, but something in why they did it.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Guernsey have a gate fee of £280 a tonne on their landfill site and that incentivises a great deal a different model than a free discharge into the energy for waste plan. Also Guernsey do not their only alternative on Island is their landfill site and their relationship with Sweden and their waste acceptance criteria will probably preclude will it preclude cartons?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Maybe not. One thing which I would add to that is when we are looking at the environmental benefit we are comparing our waste processing option here, which is energy recovery with recycling and obviously any transport to a recycling specialist would be coming into that model. Where comparing the environmental impact of local energy recovery, and with what we are talking about cartons off Island recycling, Guernsey's model would be looking at local landfill versus off Island recycling. So very different and where there may be if there was for example a marginal benefit to off Island recycling for Guernsey that would become a significant benefit. It is quite different as well as the economics which John mentioned.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You ladies have been at the sharp end of the recycling and bits and pieces over here, have you noticed that any of the big conglomerates in the U.K. or overseas are cutting on plastics or are they still feeding everything through just the same and it means that the general public are the ones who are doing the savings rather than the big companies? Have you noticed anything?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This year we have certainly been having more conversations with supermarkets. That would be local supermarkets as well as the more national brands that are over here. What is very positive is all the changes that are happening nationally are being applied here as they would be across anywhere in the U.K. Therefore, we have noticed a difference in regard to that definitely, but unfortunately if people are very keen recyclists, they are still ending up with a lot of plastic in the bin as we can all appreciate. Furthermore, what we are noticing now is people thinking forwarder than that, so not just accepting what is for sale on a supermarket shelf, but thinking that they have some autonomy in their purchasing position to a point. Obviously, convenience is a huge factor in there but shopping more wisely in terms of the waste that is ending up in your bin at the end of the day. We are seeing more proactive changes happening there as well, which is exciting and that will also put pressure on retailers because people will be debating with their pockets.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Sounding really cynical now, but I really do not mean to be. The big companies are still making money and the general public is doing their duty for them? We are disposing of they are just plodding on just the same. Do we need to educate them because I do not think it is quite fair that we are doing our bit and they do not seem to be doing theirs and they are still raking it in.

[15.00]

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

If you buy a television and you have those polystyrene cardboard box to

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

You do not have to buy a T.V. you can buy something from another company you get this huge envelope, you get all sorts of things inside and you get something that is not even as big as this. It is just stupid.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That is the challenge. If one television has got damaged in shipping from Korea to Europe then the environmental impact of that is greater than the packaging around it. There is a real again, it is very simple to talk about it but it is nuanced. The Amazon boxes are just

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Stupid.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

I appreciate that, I am asking about the food stuff so we are still comfortable that and I am elderly, sometimes I buy something I cannot even get into the package. I just think it is a shame that they are not doing their little bit and the general public is having to do it because they say you ladies have been at the sharp end and .

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: I think those changes are coming through and there are

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is slow.

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

national agreements that are happening that are having that trickle-down effect to comply with their national stores and their supply because they are not adding any extra packaging for Jersey because legislation might be different. There is that trickling through. I think in parallel with that we have a significant role to play in empowering customers that what they buy sends a message back to the store. If you are buying I think you mentioned fruit in however many layers of packaging, if people continue to buy that, the retailer will see that as that people want that product.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Unwrap it at the checkout and leave it with the checkout.

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That does happen, that does happen. There are a few work streams and they are in parallel.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Watch this space.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I just ask one thing? Clearly, my own bugbear is aluminium recycling and just because it is literally dug out of the ground. Every aluminium piece that goes into the waste bar, major but a small piece of aluminium probably gets incinerated but and enormous waste aluminium to me. Are we trying to increase aluminium recycling over here?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, we will be. Because of the national and local interest with plastic, that has had to be our focus and that has been a real opportunity as well for us to be getting lots of messages out there. I completely share the will to focus on aluminium.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Just think of all those mines all around the world and they just chuck it in the bin.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

What is crazy is aluminium is worse, way more than £1,000 a tonne.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): There is an actual value.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: It is a hugely valuable product and the segregation and

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

We have segregated I know you go through town and

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, there are a lot of parishes now who are now moving to the kerbside where there will be a big step forward and I think that is something and the system brings a lot of metal packaging, but I think when you start doing a kerbside you get a transformational effect. The aluminium is where the money is and so that is

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): That is the lowest of the

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

If you think that is worth doing of all the recycling that we do, that is the one that I am not sure if we make good money out of it because the scale and the but it would be nice to. The problem with aluminium is it is very light so it is not it is a material that can be recycled again and again and again and has a huge level of sustainability.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I quite like the Scandinavian system I saw about 20 years ago where children collect up all the aluminium cans and they have what looks like a one-armed bandit if you like. They pop the cans in, they pull the lever which crushes the can and when they have finished they press finish and they get a voucher come out, which they can then go and spend at the shops. It is the equivalent of the old Tizer bottles.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

The only place that did not seem to do that was Britain and France and northern countries, but I would say Britain is the only place that seemed to not do that.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

They used to do that when I was a long time ago when I was little.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): We are talking not so long ago.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, it was. You used to have to go to the village because the lady would not give you the money until you had 2 and 6 to spend or you had a shilling to spend.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Is this the Tizer bottles?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Can I ask, going back to plastics, Ministerial response to our report mentions plans recycling of U.P.V.C. windows, can you expand on what your plans are?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Our position has not changed in the respect that in regard to our priority list of plastics certainly high grade U.P.V.C. which is window and door frames as you said, that is next on our to do list.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Do you have a timescale for that?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We do not at present but it is certainly something that we would like to be removing from the waste stream. What has allowed us to do this and this is still a work in progress is our work which started last autumn on cleaning up glass that is delivered to us in the college. Last autumn we started a series of work engaging really with the householder as well as hospitality sector on really cleaning up the glass that was in the glass bins. Their plastic wrapping, removing bottle tops, those sorts of things. A secondary piece of work for that project is working with glaziers so they are removing the U.P.V.C. window frames, door frames from any glass that they are delivering to us so that we are only receiving glass. That piece of work is ongoing. Once that is a little bit further forward, that means that the glass we will be receiving is cleaner and it is cleaner already which is fantastic but that also means that frames will be free from the glass which means they are easier for us to capture and then look at recycling. We know there are recyclers in the U.K. as well as in Europe and we can do that scoping piece of work to find a partner.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

They come with other components, bits of metal and things like this?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Basically as you said earlier, make it more complicated to recycle.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It is quite a mature market the U.P.V.C., it is only us that do not do it.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Mature part of the market. Can you just say what happens at the moment with U.P.V.C.?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment:

U.P.V.C. windows or frames are delivered as bulky waste into our energy recovery facility so they will go through our shredder. They are quite bulky bits of waste and that will then be incinerated for energy recovery.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): There is no charge for that?

Recycling Manager, Growth, Housing and Environment: There is no charge for that.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Okay, thank you. That is it for the plastic recycling. You know that means a change over, right? The future hospital site has been incredibly quiet. I have only one question for you.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure: Are you sure?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It is certainly wide ranging. Would you mind providing an update on how matters are progressing with the site selection process?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

I would be delighted and it gives me an opportunity to say something. No, we have not discussed anywhere about the site selection, but what I would like to say is the work going on behind the scenes. The other thing is I am about to announce this week because I think there has been some quietness from us about what we are doing and what is going on, the clinicians are we went this clinical route that we wanted to make sure that we were speaking to everybody before we went out and said what size the hospital was going to be and where it is going to be. As I say, repeating myself, honestly say we have not even discussed sites. I have not been part of the previous Assembly like yourself, I have kept very much out of it. What I have seen is with the D.G. and Robert Sainsbury and John MacAneery, they are meeting all the primary care people, the doctors and everybody. We are trying to meet as many people as possible and I can say at the present time we have met somewhere around 42 groups and we are now talking about charities, volunteers, anybody that has anything to do with the hospital we are asking. The next stage is the stage of, which is the one that I am very, very keen on, and that is the general public out there because I just feel there is a Hell of a lot of feedback that can come from there. The problem is we are up against time. The one other positive news that I can give and I cannot confirm whether he has been appointed or not but we are about to appoint somebody locally with regards to the communication person who was advertised both locally and in the U.K. There is the interview today and hopefully we will be able to come back and confirm and almost sure that he will be locally. You will not have to go up there now.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): I think you are right.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

As I said we are going on that score and we are also trying as I said to keep it very local. We have to move on, we have the clinical report which should be done by the Director General by 3rd October. We also have Scrutiny towards the end of this month so something to keep your eyes on. So we have I think you are very much like myself, I just want to tell everybody exactly where we are and what is happening and that is really up to date. I have no other physical report to make but to say it is moving much faster than I thought. Okay, one has to be careful about naming deadlines which you have been suggesting this afternoon but we are trying to get as many of the deadlines we can as possible. We have our Project Director which is Richard Bannister. He is on the process via infrastructure making sure we have all our ducks in a row with regards to appointing people but none of that is going to happen until we get the clinical report which is 3rd October and also the report back to yourselves on Scrutiny with regards after the meeting.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I am aware that this is your chance to feel the power of argument in infrastructure, so I am just wondering from the perspective of affecting resource in the infrastructure department, is this project having an effect on your resources?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure: I am involved.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Well, let us take the other view, is it heavy for the department?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Until it is developed, the bottom line of this is the hospital which is secondary to the healthcare model. The healthcare model has been reviewed since P82 and that outcome is going to come up with a refocus of where health should be going and out of that an iteration of that is a hospital. Then the hospital project when the scheme moves from this is what we need. This is what needs doing. It then will come across to myself and the team, it will come across with it. The involvement will be within myself and the capital team. Hopefully, there will be members of the Department for Infrastructure particularly on the transport team making sure the transport works and all that which is what we do before and the scheme will scale up again as it was just about to last time. At the moment, there is no fundamental resource anxiety around it, but as it develops it will become it is the biggest project we have ever seen and will still be the biggest capital project. It is not going to be less than that.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

It is just from your perspective in the Department for Infrastructure, you are also making sure that none of the other enormous amounts of work are affected by that.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

That is right. Then maybe depending on its location and how you gain access to it and stuff, so those are the issues we have to address in due course. The key thing is getting the medical profession to be comfortable with this healthcare and then the hospital comes out of that. That relationship was lost over time with the previous scheme because it was just too long in that period. That does include primary care as well, which is essential to the whole project.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Are there any more questions about the hospital?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : No, no.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

The last one, very quick one.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Sorry, Deputy Gardiner has got one, it is not the last because I have got 2 extras that I have added myself.

Sure, sorry. It is just to reconfirm because in all the residents of 15.13.33 (several inaudible words) and First Tower it seems extremely important to be sure that we would have funding allocated to covers.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, that was a States decision, that is

Deputy I. Gardiner :

That is what they asked me to do. We know this is a States decision, but to be sure that it is 100 per cent in Government and now it is going away.

Director of Operations, Growth, Housing and Environment:

It has been allocated within the government plan, so subject to the approval the monies will be there for the covering the primary

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It will provide this, so nobody from the States will object it.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure: Primary tax on it covered.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Fine, thank you.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

So that is asking too many questions to sort that out.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I was a Back-Bencher at the time and I voted for it.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Okay.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I have just a couple of extra questions. Slightly different again first one is relating to the government plan, Minister. In the government plan, there were a number of references to an infrastructure fund.

Are you able to expand upon it because there is zero detail? I know you rightly said you do not know the detail, but an infrastructure fund surely you must know some of the detail?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Infrastructure fund.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Is this capital?

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Yes.

[15.15]

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

This is from a major capital scheme and it is not it does not really sit with us, it is more Treasury and the concept of finding a finding money on an annual basis to maintain a capital fund and the capital keeps the assets maintained but does not transform. Therefore, when you look at schemes like a hospital development for a region, reinvigorating the infrastructure in Jersey, looking at the future housing needs of Jersey, potentially transforming the port to somewhere else, the concept is one of having a bigger piece of money, a proper size piece of money which then can be bid into and can be utilised for these transformational large scale projects.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Whose money would that be?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

That has not been developed yet. It can potentially be Government money, it can be borrowing, it can be private sector money, it can be there are lots of options and Treasury are currently looking at those options. I am not an expert in those things, but it is a significant review of how we fund our major infrastructure moving forwards.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If you had like a tour of the sewage plant, that can be arranged.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Old and new, the new one is coming along.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

The new one is being constructed at pace so it is really useful to

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

I have seen the new one so procedure is

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: The new

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, I would like to visit this.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Sadie, are you coming down to the plant?

The Connétable of St. Saviour : No, I can walk around outside.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

My last question was, which I should have asked earlier and I forgot to bring it up. The estate management strategy. How is the estate management strategy progressing?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

I can cover that. It has progressed very well with the Public Accounts Committee have been holding my feet to the flames and we threw a lot of resource at it over the last 6 months. Given as it is finally a structure which is across Government, but also references the assets that are not under Government control so the ports and M.D.M. and various and the A.D.C. Therefore, we have given that a structure, a methodology and some principles around that which we would like to share with you once we have taken them through the generation steering committee, which will hopefully sit this month. It is one of those things that should have happened a long time ago but property has been a very protected area although Jersey Property Holdings was set up a long time ago, it never got the home property portfolio. So helped to retain some properties, education even

The Minister for Infrastructure: Courts of Jersey.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

What it is is a far bigger piece of work and gives us what it is going to do is it is going to set some principles about how we sell things, trying to get rid of more properties, trying to make sure the properties we have are utilised better because people properties sit dormant. I think you asked the question about how many properties are vacant. That is the thing we need to start addressing, because property has been seen as free and good, and it is not. It is the catalyst for fundamental change in St. Helier and the environment. This is really a super piece of work and we will present that as soon as we have approval from our political leads.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Before the end of the year?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

We will be going as soon as we have gone to the regen committee to get that approval we will go to the A.C.N. itself and deliver a presentation.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Something else regarding the sewage which we might like this with as you are all into recycling, I think we save about £1,000 a day on electricity for the methane generators that we use.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): Do you use methane?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment: Yes, we do. We have anaerobic digestion.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): It is a good saving, just around

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is a good saving.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): It heats by itself, does it?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Well, what it does is there is a pasteurisation plant at the front so we could use their advanced treated sludge, which then goes back to our producer. That is then run off a gas engine; the gas engine then also generates half a megawatt of power, which is then utilised for the whole of the sewage works.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

That is what I meant, it goes back into the sewage plant?

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, it goes back on to the sewage so it is a very as the Minister said, it is a very positive thing that no one realises we do.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): I did not know.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

No, and all jokes aside, I would love to come and visit.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair): We will.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : I would love to visit, yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We will also be doing another site visit at Cavern if you when that is completed with the existing system.

Director General, Growth, Housing and Environment:

Yes, all the councils have done a major refurbishment of the M. and E., because the Cavern is over 20 years old. That was a great servant to the Island but the M. and E. has tired and needs refurbishing, and those are significant changes which hopefully will make it we will not have to go in there as often to maintain the cleaning, it should be self-cleaning and which should make it safer for my staff, but also make it a bit more available in times of storm conditions. Right now we do not get that resilience. When that work is close to completion it would be great to go and visit because it is not many people go there.

Deputy K.F. Morel (in the Chair):

Brilliant. Thank you, Minister.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : Thank you.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Thank you.

[15.21]