Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Minister for International Development - 28 June 2019

Economic and International Affairs Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister for International Development

Friday, 28th June 2019

Panel:

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chairman) Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour

Witnesses:

Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville , The Minister for International Development Mr. S. Boas, Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission

[11.03]

Deputy K.F. Morel of St. Lawrence (Chairman):

Before we get started, I will just ask to go around and introduce ourselves for the record.

Deputy J.H. Perchard of St. Saviour :

Deputy Jess Perchard, Member of the Economic Affairs Panel.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Deputy Kirsten Morel , Chair of the Economic Affairs Panel.

Deputy D. Johnson of St. Mary (Vice-Chairman): Deputy David Johnson , Deputy Chair.

Carolyn Labey , Deputy of Grouville and Minister for International Development.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Simon Boas, Director of Jersey Overseas Aid Commission.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

Thank you so much. So, yes, we are going to just go through again exploring the work you are doing more than anything else. Also, probably ask you a bit about the financing and budgets, particularly as we are coming up to the government plans for it. I just thought we would start by asking if you could outline the business and some of the work that you have done since we last saw you in March.

The Minister for International Development:

Right. Since March, we have made probably 3 major visits. Simon has been to London a few times, he has been giving a presentation to Bond which is the what does it stand for? Well anyway, it is N.G.O.s (Non-Profit Organisation) that all meet up for networking. So, Simon has been doing presentations and visiting N.G.O.s in the U.K. just to, sort of, explain our projects and also have a look and evaluate what they are doing. The major visits since March have been with the Constable of Trinity who is well, we sent him to the Central African Republic. That was his first visit of that kind, I think his first visit out of Europe so it was quite a shock to send him to a country that rates 187 out of 188 on the H.D.I. (Human Development Index). So he went there to have a look at the work of the U.N. O.C.H.A. (Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) because as part of our emergency policies, we now give monies to O.C.H.A., which is the U.N. O.C.H.A.

Deputy K.F. Morel : What is O.C.H.A., sorry?

The Minister for International Development: Sorry, that is the

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. It is a U.N. specialist agency for humanitarian emergencies. They coordinate all of the other U.N. bodies and the charity sectors in places where there are crises in effect.

The Minister for International Development:

So, we support the U.N. through O.C.H.A. and through U.N.I.C.E.F. Those are the two U.N. organisations we support. This work with the U.N. O.C.H.A. we fund in C.A.R. (Central African Republic) which is Central African Republic in Syria and Yemen. So, where there are huge crises probably, you know, the biggest crises of our for the past few decades. We chose to support them because we felt that there are ongoing crises there and it was better that we could fund people that are in the country, have got people there on the ground who monitor everything. If things erupt, they know exactly what is going on. They give to other agencies if they feel that they are best deployed to carry out the humanitarian work. For example, they will have the pooled funds and if they feel that Red Cross or U.N.I.C.E.F. or whoever are best to deliver the aid, they will fund that for specific projects.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

So was the Constable of Trinity out there to do visits on the work that was being done?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. So he was out there to see exactly how the pooled funds work and he was there with other major countries like Germany, Switzerland. So he was there. Firstly, I think it was probably talking about how it all works, how they evaluate it and then there were field visits.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

It is to see where the money is being deployed to.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, and how it is evaluated. It is quite difficult to evaluate exactly when you are dealing with crises but they have got mechanisms and systems and processes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Just going back to our previous meeting, I think you differentiated between ongoing projects where you had your risk assessments et cetera and maybe something like this. Am I right in thinking that the 3 countries you mentioned there were crisis ones and, therefore, you do not apply the same rules?

The Minister for International Development:

We do not apply the same rules as Grant Aid because obviously, it is more difficult. No, this is probably as good as it gets. I mean, obviously, there is a disaster somewhere like a few years ago the earthquake in Nepal, if we have got sufficient money, we will give to whoever we consider is best to deal with that particular situation, and we will be advised and we will give monies accordingly.

I was going to ask as well with regards to Central African Republic but also U.N. O.C.H.A.s, what is the scale of money that we have donated?

The Minister for International Development:

Right, this year we made a decision because it has not been the same, you know, in the last few years when there was a devastating crisis in Syria, we gave more money to Syria but now, we decided to give £250,000 to Syria, £250,000 to Yemen and C.A.R.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

We decide which ones they go to as opposed to just giving them to U.N. O.C.H.A. and they decide where it goes.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, depending what we feel would have been fed back to us about the particular situation at that time.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

From your perspective, and from a budgeting perspective at the beginning of last year, had you decided that £750,000 would be the amount you gave or does it fluctuate according to the scale of emergency, that sort of thing?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Should I tell you how that process worked both in terms of budgeting and the decision making? So at the beginning of the year, and this basically works for most years, commissioners will decide roughly of our budget how much should go for the emergency humanitarian, how much for development, how much for Jersey charities and how much for our volunteer work projects. This year, because of the scale and the ambition of some of our development projects and also the fact that we are giving more to Jersey charities than we have ever done in the past, we had less for the humanitarian side. So we had about £2 million that we were going to put into the humanitarian, the emergency side of things. Commissioners decided at the beginning of the year that about half of that would go to these pooled funds. So there is the 3 run by the U.N., the country based pooled funds, and then there is another one called the Start Fund which is a very similar idea but it is run by charities themselves. It is housed in Save the Children but it has its own governance and organisation. Again, the principle is the same; that we fund the fund and then the decisions are

made by people on the ground who know, as Carolyn said, is it the Red Cross that need the money or is it U.N.I.C.E.F. or is it a local charity? It means they can do the due diligence that we, sitting in St. Helier , really would struggle to do on a charity in Sana'a or Idlib or something like that. It means our money can be deployed really rapidly, you know, it is already there. There is a gas attack somewhere, the money is paying for gas masks for medical personnel within 72 hours or something like that. So we think it is really good value for money. Fourthly, crucially, it helps to coordinate the humanitarian system because then all of the agencies are applying to the same pot for money rather than everyone trying to do lots of little bits.

The Minister of International Development: Yes, outbid one another.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

As a relatively small donor in that space, we could potentially be adding to the problems if we ourselves just funded hundreds of little projects everywhere because that is always the problem in an emergency; you have got all these agencies trying to do essentially the same thing.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

From the pool in Haiti I think, lots of little projects getting the money.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Yes, and the tsunami, it was awful. We think this is a really good way of spending a good chunk of the humanitarian budget. So the decision-making process of that was, yes, around about £1 million, I then did some reports and made some recommendations to commissioners and they deliberated at a commission meeting and decided,first of all, do they stick with that allocation and secondly, how should it be divided between those organisations and between those countries. The other part of the pot we have basically kept for more responsive things. We are still really trying to work out how best to do that. I think there will be emergencies that the Jersey public will always expect us to respond to, which is why incidentally we cannot make a nice 12 month in advance budget profile because we never know what is going to happen in December. We have also signed an agreement with the Bailiff and Side by Side have come on board as well so that in the event that there is an emergency that the Bailiff 's fund wants to raise money from the public, we can help direct that money and incidentally match-fund some of it, but also make sure that that goes to the most effective organisation.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Can I just ? Something like the earthquake in New Zealand years ago being a kind of developed country, would that come under the Bailiff 's fund or would it come under so I know we gave money but I have got no idea the extent to which we gave

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

It is a very good example because there are some rules in place by the O.E. C.D . (Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development) as to what counts as aid and, essentially, it only counts as official development assistance if it is spent in a core or lower-middle income country.

[11.15]

So we could have given money and it would have been the Jersey public's right to. Legally, we could have deployed J.O.A. (Jersey Overseas Aid) money, but I think one would have had to think quite hard before doing so because (a) it would not count towards Jersey's development aid and, therefore, our position in the rankings and, (b) when you give money to something, it is obviously, do not give it to something else. That kind of came up with the East Caribbean hurricane.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, the British Virgin Isles. It is a dilemma that we just let the Bailiff 's fund you know, and then if the Jersey public felt that we ought to be giving, they could contribute together.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You mentioned the B.V.I. (British Virgin Isles), what happened then, did we give money?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

We did give some money. There was an appeal. It did not raise a huge amount. Some local companies also wanted to give money to their counterparts, but they of course were mostly in the rich islands. We directed Jersey's aid budget to communities in Haiti and the Dominican Republic which are rightly recipients of aid, which were also devastated. I would not ever like to say we would never spend the aid budget on a developed country because I think if a tsunami hit Guernsey we would be the first people to try to provide help. But really, we have to try to direct our money towards developing countries and there is an international framework on what countries are on that list and what are not.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Yes, we have talked about the Central African Republic. When he returned, did the constable provide a report to you?

Yes, absolutely. He went out with an officer, it would have been too mean to send him alone. He went along with a programme officer and they report back to the commissioners.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Then if there is any actions that need taking or follow ups, we will do it in the office. It is usually make contact with Irish Aid to explore how we could look at synergies in our funding for something. Or if there is, which there wasn't in that case, an issue of, "Are we sure this mechanism is working?", or something that we would follow up as a result. I think it is good to follow the pound that has left Jersey taxpayer's pocket.

The Minister for International Development:

There is nothing quite like seeing it in the field. You pick up nuances that you would not from the report.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You also have to exercise a balance in the sense of we are giving £250,000 there, it is not too much money in the overall scheme of things; so you do not want to spend too much money on our personnel going there, especially with recent history.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, well, exactly and I am very mean with budgeters too, you know, emergency economy flights and that sort of thing.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I see and they have got trips

Deputy J.H. Perchard:

Conversely, I am just wondering how the constable was prepped before. Was he briefed before he went, was he given a briefing pack? We are talking a lot about this in the C.P.A. at the moment about how to improve the efficacy of those kind of trips. I am just wondering if that was

The Minister for International Development:

Well, Simon has obviously spent 20 years in the field so he prepped him. Ed has spent years in the field and also, he was prepped by External Relations because they felt that they wanted to do a visit.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

O.C.H.A., of course, also prepared a good briefing pack and looked after him. As Carolyn said, my background was the humanitarian side as well, so I am quite familiar with the architecture of the system, for example, how things are divided into sector or working groups and clusters and also some of the security side; you have to put up with radioing your movements, how not to shut your finger in the door of an armoured car and things like that.

Deputy K.F. Morel :

This is still following on from the work we have done since March?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, of course. So that was the first trip. Simon and I were invited to the World Bank Conference; there was the World Bank A.G.M. (Annual General Meeting). This particular area is called C.G.A.P. (Consultative Group to Assist the Poor) and it specialises in financial inclusion. You may remember we had the C.E.O. (Chief Executive Officer; Greta Bull) here in February, she came out to see us. I made a private visit to the World Bank when I was on holiday in New York, new year. Greta came over here in February and so we were invited to the A.G.M. So that was all about our financial inclusion programmes which we have got a huge financial inclusion programme with Comic Relief in 3 countries, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Malawi.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Zambia.

The Minister for International Development:

Zambia, yes, I always get them muddled up with the C.A.R. We have got pound for pound matching with Comic Relief and this financial inclusion programme which World Bank are really interested in because it is being designed by professionals at Comic Relief. It was good to go and speak to them and learn about the pitfalls and what they have discovered et cetera. I then visited a refugee camp with the Red Cross looking at the financial inclusion programme on the ground.

Deputy K.F. Morel : This is in Rwanda?

The Minister for International Development:

No, this was in Lebanon, this was on the Syrian border. Then we also looked at the community work project but we have a group of volunteers going out there in a couple of weeks' time to Lebanon, the same projects as I, sort of, instigated last year, one-to-one care with mentally disadvantaged people, for our volunteers.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

I happened to come across a lady from St. John 's Ambulance or Red Cross, who was going out there to Lebanon, would she be going there under your auspices rather than as part of the charity.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, I know who you are talking about, yes. Yes, she is, yes, absolutely. So you will be able to get input. Ask her about it when she comes back.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Sorry, so the local charity itself does not send someone out, it is

The Minister for International Development:

No, because part of our budget we have got for community work programmes, so it is emergencies, grant aid, local charities and community work projects. That comes under community work projects, which, we are not only doing community work projects now we are extending that to all the outreach in the schools and stuff I think you want to talk about later. That was Lebanon; we were there 3 days and that was it, World Bank refugee camp and the community work project. Then last week we were in Rwanda and that was looking at our cow project and looking at the financial inclusion project with Comic Relief in the refugee camp there. Yes, so there was the refugee camp, the cows and obviously, the conference, which attracted the Minister for Agriculture. We visited the Minister for Finance to talk about our financial inclusion programme. Yes, it was widely reported on. We were reported in the Rwandan Times about the cow project and, since we have been back, in Farming International Magazine.

Deputy K.H Morel :

On the financial inclusion side, would you mind describing how that works because I know you have mentioned before that obviously Jersey has expertise in financial services, but you keep saying it is being delivered through Comic Relief? So are there any links between Jersey's expertise and financial services and the financial inclusion project?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. Simon can describe the technical bits, but I will come back to our themes and why we have chosen them, if I may?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Yes, financial inclusion is essentially financial services for poor people. It is an incredible enabler of development and also of resilience. So, one has got access not just to a line of credit to start a business but some might just save some money for their children's education or to weather a shock.

You know, it is an absolute plank of people being able to help themselves. Carolyn will come back to it, but Jersey Overseas Aid has obviously taken the position we must play to our strengths as an Island and we focused on 3 things that are incredibly effective ways to move the needle in the developing world, but also things that resonate in Jersey and areas where we can add value. Financial services for poor people, conservation and the kind of work Durrell does, and dairy. So within financial inclusion, we are, kind of, taking baby steps I think as a donor. We'd always funded a little bit of micro-finance, but never in a very systematic way. We started this project Carolyn was telling you about with Comic Relief a couple of years ago. They matched the amount of money we put in. There is an £8 million pot over 4 years which we, together with them, are making programme decisions about what to fund.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

So is that the £1 million per year that we ?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Exactly, exactly. There is a working committee made up of 2 of us and 2 of them making decisions which are then reported back to our board and Comic Relief's board on what gets funded and there are 3 elements of that programme. There are projects whose goal is to focus on the bottom of the pyramid, last mile people in these 3 countries and physically getting them access to services like micro-credit, money transfers on your mobile telephone, micro-savings, even some insurance. Then there is a technical assistance component and we hope this is where Jersey will come in more in terms of deploying our expertise. That is about working with regulators and policy makers, maybe a mobile telephony regulator, or maybe a pensions regulator, or the capital markets authority or the central bank. For example, a project in Rwanda is working with the central bank to ensure that there are consumer protection facilities available in terms of digital financial services. So it is a new market, everyone is coming up with a new app to do something, wants to protect a poor person from losing their savings or something. That is where we hope ultimately we can deploy our expertise, for example, in regulation and supervision directly into, say, a central bank in Sierra Leone. The third bit is focusing on private sector development, particularly FinTechs and start-ups; how can we capitalise small companies in Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Zambia to just meet gaps in the market to provide services. So those are the 3 elements of it and we have run it with Comic Relief. The thing Carolyn was saying, I have been talking to charities in England, we will be opening a call for proposals ourselves in August for projects that will start next year andfor the first time, we will fund these types of projects directly just as overseas aid.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Where I am coming from is what you have just said seems to fall squarely within the financial services sector. Are you using your budget to do that or do they give you more to do that?

There is a good question. As you know, we are going through the government plan at the moment and we have put in an original bid and that got knocked down and we have put in another bid now, so,that is under discussion. I mean, what we are initially trying to do is reverse the decline because since there has not been a minister around the Council of Minister's table responsible for this particular  area, our budget since 2015 has been in decline.  Now, we are standing on the international stage, External Relations and finance and everyone saying, "We are an international player here", yet our international obligations are going down year on year because our G.V.A. (Gross Value Added) is going up. That is embarrassing. I think it is embarrassing. I mean, even if we reverse the decline and went up by 0.01 per cent per annum; that would be a start I think.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

At the moment, the current bid that you have in, does that just maintain a level, is it a lower level than last year?

The Minister for International Development:

In 2015 our giving was 0.25 per cent. A bit more than that, 0.252 per cent. Now it is 0.21 per cent. It is not a good position to be in I do not think, not if we want to be taken seriously and be given credibility.

[11.30]

Deputy K.H. Morel :

As I understand it, correct me if I am wrong, you are committed to the idea of getting to the 0.7 per cent? It strikes me that we are a very long way from that. We are going in the wrong direction.

The Minister for International Development:

Well, we are a long way and we have signed up to 0.7 per cent on numerous occasions but we would be happy to reverse the decline and to demonstrate that we are going up slowly but surely. Even if we got to the O.E. C.D . average which is 0.31 per cent. I think that would be good.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Do you know what the U.K. (United Kingdom) ?

The Minister for International Development:

0.7 per cent.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

The U.K. is 0.7 per cent? Oh, they are doing that, are they?

The Minister for International Development: Yes. Some countries give more than that.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Going back to my question, the bid you have in at the moment, is it in real terms but this is cash terms; is it less than last year if it is successful or is it about the same as last year in real terms, so not percentage terms. I appreciate it is a bid, it is not confirmed. We have not seen a government plan yet

The Minister for International Development:

If we are successful in just reversing the decline, that would be £2 million for next year.

Deputy K.H. Morel : Additional?

The Minister for International Development: Yes, additional. Sorry, additional.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Otherwise that would be a budget slash. It would be a real terms increase just in terms of extra cash but in terms of you know, the ratio is to our G.D.P. (Gross Domestic Product) like you say or a bit smaller. Fine, okay. Your first bid was rejected you say. From your side, I imagine that was very disappointing but do you think that is a symptom of just where Jersey is at the moment in terms of the States' budgeting or do you think it is because there is a sense that overseas aid is a nice-to- have rather than a must-have?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, I do not feel that it is a nice-to-have if we want to be taken seriously when we are doing international business, you know, on the world stage and international finance. I do not think it is a nice-to-have. Plus, the fact we have signed up to obligations under Agenda 21. If we renege on those, there is a reputational issue I think. There is a, sort of, moral obligation if nothing else. I made a Liberation Day speech this year that talked about Jersey receiving humanitarian aid, one of the only places on British soil, if not the only place within the Channel Islands, to have received humanitarian aid. I do believe that there is a moral dilemma but at the same time we are trying to be realistic with the current economy and what have you. So we are trying to be realistic without

causing embarrassment to us and reputational damage. Also, with Jersey overseas aid, yes, it would be fantastic if we reach the 0.7 per cent, but even getting to the O.E. C.D . average I think, would be a good and responsible donor. We would be taken really seriously when we are out there. What we try to do with our aid is not only just give aid, and this is the bit I wanted to come back to with our themes, yes, we can give aid like we did in the past. We can give aid to, sort of, bore a well or do this and that in numerous countries without having huge amounts of impact. What we have chosen to do now is not only narrow down our countries, and I think I explained the formula last time and how we pick them, but also choose the thematic themes of what we believe Jersey should be known for and play to our strengths. So the Jersey cow I always say is our greatest ambassador, financial inclusion within the international finance centre and conservation with Durrell. So just changing our narrative I think is good for us. I mean, we are known as an international finance centre and at worst a tax haven. That is not good for any of us but if we are known for the jurisdiction of the Jersey cow of not only international finance but financial inclusion, conservation, these kinds of things where we can demonstrate, "Yes, we are the centre of excellence for the Jersey cow. We set up the herd book here, we are going out to Rwanda showing them how to do exactly the same thing", that is bringing millions of people out of poverty. I think that is a much nicer narrative for the Island to have and it is something that we can get behind and be proud of rather than, sort of, shrouded in this

Deputy K.H Morel :

One thing, you link your work and Jersey Overseas Aid work with the Island identity. You have been quite clear about that from the beginning when you became Minister. I am interested in, do you think enough work has been done at this end to establish an Island identity? So you are trying to establish an Island identity externally but do we have one internally to support it?

The Minister for International Development:

Probably not enough and as soon as I am resourced in that area I will be able to start work on it.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Do you think you will get resources for that area? Is that likely

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, I have apparently got a person starting in August so I am hopeful. We can do a lot more here, we can do a lot more with our culture, our heritage, how we present ourselves to the outside world and this is part of it, being known as a well, I think it was Jersey Finance that said, "We ought to be a centre of excellence for something".

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Yes, absolutely.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Some of the items you raise come within the area of Jersey Finance, so they could help with who pays for it. What about environmental considerations, I mean, we have expertise here which I am sure could be used in certain third world countries. Is there a plan to export any of that expertise and if so, again, does that come out of your budget or does the Department of the Environment contribute?

The Minister for International Development:

No, we are the ones that export it, that is our work with Durrell in Madagascar, which is not one of our countries but because it is a local charity we have different rules.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: They have got strong links with Madagascar.

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

You mentioned Durrell more than once. I saw on B.B.C. (British Broadcasting Corporation) news this week 5 black rhinos had been exported there. I mean, there is a relationship. I know Durrell do not deal in black rhinos, but this relationship between Durrell and Rwanda is in existence?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

They have trained some of the gorilla conservation people who work with the Rwandan Development Board, which is in charge of the conservation and tourism, so there is a relationship. I do not know whether it is a current one, but they have certainly hosted Rwandan conservation staff on some of the training courses. There is, of course, that mounting the gorilla connection.

Deputy J.H. Perchard:

Just talking about the Island identity aspect of the work, obviously, operationally in the Government of Jersey there are changes happening right now, and a lot of restructuring. There is talk about the centralisation or sharing of services among parishes, for example. There are a lot of operational things happening that could impact on parish life and Island identity. How will your work on Island identity negate any potential damage to what we see as a Jersey identity from any operational changes?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, I think the parishes, just to set an example, are real entities and it is part of our identity. Do you mean the one guards going sort of crossways? The purpose of that I think was to break down the silos. I completely appreciate and I noticed there are two questions down in the States Assembly on Tuesday that the public probably are getting confused as to who is responsible for what. With the Island identity, because we are doing like the international identity along with others, but we can be very specific. In its broader sense to do something here I would like to work with Montford, who is responsible for culture and heritage, and see what we can enhance on the Island and if it is using our Jersey Overseas Aid so much the better. The Island identity and international development is what we described of cows, cash and conservation.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: The 3 Cs of Jersey.

Deputy J.H. Perchard:

I suppose the fear is that unless someone is in charge of the political vision of Island life, that inadvertently the operational changes will start shaping what Island identity is. We need someone pioneering from a political perspective what the vision of what Jersey's future Island identity is so that operational changes do not dictate that.

The Minister for International Development: Exactly.

Deputy J.H. Perchard:

Who is responsible? To what extent are you responsible for that?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, I think something like setting up the health centres in the parishes, I think that needs to be welcomed because it maintains the parish hubs. In that respect, I suppose I am keeping an eye out for that sort of thing so it is not eroded. I was a supporter of  Jèrriais. being used. It is that sort of thing rather than running of the arts centre, ut obviously, Montford will have a big part to play.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Minister for Education as well potentially.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. The idea is to set up a policy development board. I know Scrutiny do not like that or do not like them very much, but I think even if we can shape or put down some guidelines to departments of the cans and cannot dos, that would be a start to planning, for instance, what is acceptable and what is not.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Going back to Rwanda, I just wanted to ask and it is very linked, obviously, one thing about overseas aid is it tends to have a picture of being one way, which is absolutely fine in the main, I totally agree. but Rwanda is a country that has come on a long way in the last 30 years. I do not know Rwanda, personally I have never been there but I get the feeling it is the sort of country that could possibly offer back if you know what I mean, to us. I was wondering if there is any element of your work which is looking to create two-way exchanges?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, we were talking about that on the way back, because the visions for this farm is to be a centre for A.I., for the record keeping, setting up the herd book and sort of being the flagship Jersey cow centre in Rwanda. We were talking about who we could you know, if they could be some sort of exchanges, some of our A.I. technicians going down there to have a look at what happens, maybe some coming back here. Yes, we see it as as much of a two-way street as we possibly can.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

If I may, it is really nice as well representing Jersey at these discussions because you are going into a room saying, "We are not the U.K. with billions to deploy and basically a " you know, it is 2 countries, you know, in the case of Rwanda with lots of mutual interests, gorillas and dairy and these things.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

It is funny to say we have got an interest in gorillas.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

And tourism, development and we are both Francophone countries that have become Anglophone. There is a lot in common. We are going into it in the spirit of partnership and saying, "Look, what can we achieve together in d airy in this kind of setting?" For example, setting up a farm with them that will propagate the Jersey breed, not just the poor Rwandans but potentially across east Africa as a kind of gene bank. They are involved in a piece of research that we are working on which should provide answers to what is the most profitable cross-breed cow for small holder farmers. All of the profitability indices are basically for big high input farmers, but this is for low input farmers. This is something we are contributing to together. One of the really tempting things is that they have got this extraordinarily rigorous public sector management framework called Inhego which they are very proud of. Even ministers could get called up against their performance targets and we always say to them

The Minister for International Development: I know, exactly.

[11.45]

Deputy K.H. Morel :

This is a place of scrutiny.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

It is a bit, yes. Perhaps we should have brought them over and teach us how to do it.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

On the exchange idea, is there any chance of Jersey Dairy funding that rather than your good selves?

The Minister for International Development: I do not know.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Would they get any value out of it?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Honestly, commercially, no, I do not think, at least not immediately. I think there are investment opportunities in dairy and, as Carolyn said, one of the goals of us specialising our aid is that hopefully it will help investors and particularly impact-oriented investors in Jersey, follow with capital that will do well for them but also do good, and that is the fastest growing area of investment. So there will be opportunity. There is a dairy in Mozambique that just uses Jersey milk, for example. There are all sorts of opportunities like this and for things to be sustainable there needs to be a private sector involvement in things. Our role I think is to provide that first injection of funds that will not necessarily bring a profit but will allow then others to come in at a later stage. I do not think we are at that stage yet with dairy, for example. However with the gene bank, for example, at some stage the idea is we are establishing a gene bank partly in Rwanda where we are supplying so many straws of semen that a female Jersey calf will be born every hour for the next 3 years. So if you think we are now nearly at midday, that is 12 today.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

What kind of size herds do they have over there?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Mostly very small ones. So these are for small holder farmers, it is very small. That is part of this new project so of course they have not had time to gestate yet, but on average over the course of those 3 years and I say "we", the amazing work of the Royal Jersey Agriculture and Horticulture Society, have got the cost price of delivering a straw of semen on liquid nitrogen to Kigali down to about £1.40, which is extraordinary. So the idea is can we make a kind of gene bank, can Rwanda then help supply this genetic material to other countries based on the findings of this research about what is the right mix of different genetics for a profitable cow for a small holder. Then it is the role of the private sector to come in and make this potentially a not for profit company or a spin off the gene bank to be something at least sustainable, and then it does not need any more aid money. We get enquiries already from middle income countries like Georgia, Morocco or Albania for genetics. Could this gene bank sell genetic material at cost plus to them and then at cost price or for free to countries like Ethiopia, Rwanda or Malawi that really need it? So we are very alive to the possibilities of these things. So we are not I know some parts of the aid world can be a little bit suspicious of private sector involvement. That would be wrong to characterise us as that or indeed the Rwandans as that.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

There is still a sense of entrepreneurialism or innovation I guess in both the structures of how you deliver something. You are open to that kind of innovation rather than just

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, I think once we have set up everything that needs to be set up and sort of built up the trust of what the project can do, I think Rwanda would, could, should be then looking for private investors to take it on.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

There are not many other organisations that use public funds whose whole goal is not to be doing this in the future. For us, the measure of success is not have to be

The Deputy of St. Mary : (Inaudible 11.49.23)

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Yes, exactly. Yes.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

I may have completely got this wrong, annual report; is there a 2018 annual report?

The Minister for International Development: Nearly.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Nearly, sorry.

The Minister for International Development: It is with the auditors. Is it with the auditors?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: No, it is still with us.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Okay, have you a timeline on that as we are marching through 2019?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Yes, I know we are.

The Minister for International Development: October?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: At the latest, yes.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Just in time for no, just after the hearing. That will be October. Excellent, I look forward to it and see what you have done on there. From your perspective, looking ahead in 2020, you talk about the government bid but are you looking at any other projects, any other new areas? You know, have you earmarked some want-to-dos?

The Minister for International Development:

Well, these are the themes that I have highlighted and then Simon said in August we will be asking for expressions of interest from N.G.O.s in our particular themes in the particular countries that we have chosen. So we wait to see what comes back. Simon and the programme officer go through each of the proposals with a fine-tooth comb, but those that commissioners are interested in, they will then go and visit the projects and the N.G.O.s and find out exactly what is what and then come back and we will decide which ones to fund.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Thank you. So, yes, there is a long way to go before you will get to that point in 2020?

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Well, we are starting the process now because it takes quite a long time to collect all the expressions of interest.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Yes, it sounds like an involved process.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Because we now ask for 40 or 50 or 60 pages of documentation before we will fund a project. We cannot ask everyone interested in our funding for that at the beginning. So we have a two-stage process where we get concept notes in and they are sifted by us, then by commissioners, and then the ones the commissioners are interested in funding, they get asked to work them up into full proposals. Then I do a desk review against 10 different criteria, I score them all. The ones that look fundable, we then do a field assessment process where typically I will go and spend a day with them in Addis Ababa or Lilongwe or something and not just ask them questions about their project but about their governance and their safeguarding policies, and irritate them by asking to follow a receipt from payment request to recording, really just to ensure that they are accountable recipients of our money. Then make a report with recommendations that goes back to commissioners. This whole process having been launched this year in August, that report that will go to commissioners in February next year so it is quite time consuming, but it is quite rigorous. Commissioners will then decide what projects to fund and they will start probably in April or May. Would it be worth mentioning the one change we have been building up this process and it is much I think more rigorous than it has ever been. One change to it this year and again, one of the reasons I was talking to U.K. charities last week, that you might be interested in, is that we are opening up the possible list of partners. So until now we have had a closed list of charities that Jersey supports and that has served us well because we have got to know them, we have not had to repeat the due diligence on them each year because we have got this relationship with them.

Yes, and because we have narrowed the countries and the themes down so much, their specialised N.G.O.s probably will be looking at this or be investing in this sort of thing.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Exactly. The problem with a closed list is it is a bit unfair on all those who are not on it and also it slightly limits what you can do, because there might be, as Carolyn said, some specialist N.G.O.s in dairy in Malawi who are not on our list. But the difficulty about opening it up more widely in the past has been that we simply have not had the man power or resources. We turn away organisations that are interested in our funding all the time and if we had a purely open call for proposals we would be swamped. Secondly, we have not really known what we wanted to achieve and that is the difference. Now we have 6 countries and 3 themes and even within those themes we are developing where Jersey can add the most value. We can then say, "Well, we are interested in organisations that have got experience and expertise in financial inclusion in these 3 countries". Whereas before, how would we have judged? We would have had 5,000 applicants in health and water and literacy and gender violence and all these things and you are really trying to choose between apples and oranges. Whereas for the first time Jersey now knows what it wants to achieve with its development aid and that then allows us to pick our partners more empirically.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Do you think the 40 - 60-page proposal they have to send back your way is fairly standard? Just from the perspective of not putting people off. While you need to maintain accountability and I appreciate why it is a big document.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

When we first started asking for it a couple of years ago there were no complaints.We know all the good agencies will have this information. So it is not just a long narrative, but it is things like a risk matrix, a stakeholder analysis, a timeline, this thing called a logical framework which sets out impacts, outcomes, outputs and inputs. It says, "What do you want to achieve at impact level?" which is the furthest level and outcome level. Output level might be digging a well and the outcome is reduction in water borne diseases. The impact is healthier children spend longer in class so education levels rise. So then you have to ask, "How is this going to be measured? What are the verifiable indicators? What will you use to verify this?" So every project has that, so you could come to our office and pick a project at random, we will be able to tell you what it is going to achieve immediately and in the long term, how many people it is going to benefit and how we are going to know what indicators there are that this is the case and what sources they will use to verify that. Again, that is hugely important.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, for all the commissioners who went on the course with Bond learn how to do the

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

As you discuss that, I thought maybe the States could use it for policy making.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, the States could benefit from a lot of what we do.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Outcome based, yes, so that sounds interesting.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

We are trying to lend some of this expertise also to the local charities and other funders here as well.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

Sorry, you have got the right question. What is the overlap between your good selves and local charities? It appears to me that local charities might receive money which could be best channelled through you. Is there a conflict or not a conflict but a tension between you in any way?

The Minister for International Development:

No, I do not believe so. We have, again, narrowed down our local charities and we include in that the R.J.A.H.S. (Royal Jersey Agricultural and Horticultural Society), Durrell, the Gurkhas. I worked with the Gurkhas in Nepal. St. John 's Ambulance in Gaza and smaller type charities like Hands Around the World.

The Deputy of St. Mary :

But your funds go to these organisations, can they be hypothecated for your overseas projects. For instance, St. John 's Ambulance could be attending a rugby match, could they not, over the weekend. Are you happy that funds that are going to these local charities do end up abroad? Overseas I should say.

The Minister for International Development:

Absolutely, and sometimes we have got pound for pound matching with them. Sometimes it is not just giving grants. Yes, I do not think there is a conflict.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

They are 2 different things. We fund Jersey charities working abroad and other people in Jersey also fund them. We have tried to help them raise their game in terms of the information they collect, the standards they advise, the project management, the governance, the finance and things like that.

The Minister for International Development:

Some are struggling a bit with the Charities Commission and what they have got to be like. Simon designed a template for them to show them how to manoeuvre.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Then there are the purely domestic focused ones, all the other ones have a dual focus. But even for the domestic focused ones, the idea of reporting against your outcomes and your impact is a bit frightening for some and they think, "We need a consultant to tell us", or, "We need to download an app", but It is incredibly easy. If you can articulate what the needs are, why you are there, you can articulate your objectives. If you can articulate your objectives you can work out how to measure them, usually. It may be harder if you are an arts charity than if you are a shelter charity, but all the same you can and you owe it to the people who fund you. So we are working with a group of funders chaired by the Lloyds Foundation, to help donors and work with other donors on Island even though none of the stuff we fund happens on Island. But to share good practice, expertise and that sort of thing and we have helped establish a group of funders who fund projects overseas as well, for the same reason.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

A couple more just last ones.

[12.00]

You mentioned your offices; do I understand you are in new offices? Have I understood that you have moved offices?

The Minister for International Development:

Yes, we have. Yes, because we were the last to leave Cyril Le Marquand House because I think we got forgotten about in our cupboard on the ground floor.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

It was only when you put the bid in for more money they suddenly remembered where you were.

The Minister for International Development:

So, the Constable of St. Helier kindly offered us the, sort of, attic of the town hall so that is where we are.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

From the basement of Cyril Le Marquand House to the attic of the town hall, right.

The Minister for International Development: Yes, exactly.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Do States pay rent for that or is it

The Minister for International Development:

No, that comes out of our budget but we have got it at a very reasonable rate and we are allowed to borrow the assembly room and meeting room.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Yes, excellent. From your perspective, it is suitable for

The Minister for International Development:

It is. I think it sort of visually it demonstrates that we are slightly separate to the States of Jersey machine and we are a commission even though I sort of have a seat round the table at the Council of Ministers.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

The Council of Ministers. Just one more was about local work in Jersey, the Stop the Spread' and Ditch the Dirt' school initiatives. I just wondered if you could give just a quick overview of what that is because again, it is about trying to see what you are doing on both sides outside of the

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

You have seen our Get Involved' booklet, I have a copy. So we are trying to do much more with outreach in Jersey in general and with schools in particular. Stop the Spread' and Ditch the Dirt' are educational programmes developed in partnership with one of our partners called Practical Action, which is a U.K. charity based in Rugby that we have worked with a lot. I cannot remember its old title, it has changed its name, but it was something like the Engineering Development it was basically using basic engineering solutions in developing countries. So we have funded all kinds of good things with them like gravity goods ropeways in Nepal and things like this.

The Minister for International Development:

With the S.T.E.M. (science, technology, engineering and math) programme, you will be familiar with it, Jess, we are feeding into that now.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission:

Exactly, that is the hook in the curriculum, is S.T.E.M. So we have run these workshops with Practical Action with primary and secondary schools, getting kids to think about how would you design a safe hand washing facility outside of a tree and how would you design a water filter. So again, it is getting all the science and tech brains working but also thinking, "Why is there a need for this and how would it be applied in a developing country?", and we are now working with the Department of the Education. So it started as a one-off last year, a series of we reached 19 schools but I would have to get back to you with the numbers, but we are now working with educational departments to see how can we institutionalise this in the curriculum.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

It is really interesting. They are receptive to that?

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Very much, yes.

The Minister for International Development:

We have built on our outreach. I mean, it used to be just the C.W.P. (community work projects). We have now got the S.T.E.M. programme and outreach in the schools. We have also got the internship we offered one a year. We are now on our third intern. The first one got a job immediately when she returned with HelpAge, and the second one is still in the field, and we will be starting a third one. So we have got the intern, we have got a couple of bursaries for people that want to get on the C.W.P.s and cannot afford it. Skills fair.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: Trackers apprentices.

The Minister for International Development:

Yes. So we are trying to do more with the volunteering, for the outreach programme but again, on a declining budget.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Yes. Well, good luck in your fight for a budget.

Thank you.

Deputy K.H. Morel :

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for your time. We are slowly learning more about what you do.

The Minister for International Development: Good.

Executive Director, Jersey Overseas Aid Commission: We might be biased, but it is the best policy area.

The Minister for International Development: Yes.

[12.05]