Transcript - Quarterly Hearing with the Chief Executive - 7 December 2020

Public Accounts Committee Quarterly Review Hearing

Witness: Chief Executive, States of Jersey

Monday, 7th December 2020

Panel:

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier (Chair) Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter Connétable J. Le Maistre of Grouville Connétable K. Shenton- Stone of St. Martin Mr. A. Lane

Mr. G. Phipps

Dr. H. Miles

Witnesses:

Mr. C. Parker - Chief Executive Officer and Head of Public Service Ms. C. Madden - Chief of Staff

[00:00]

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier (Chair):

Good afternoon, Chief Executive and the team. Welcome to the quarterly hearing. I will introduce the Public Accounts Committee members. I am Deputy Inna Gardiner , the Chair. We have Connétable Karen Shenton-Stone , a panel member; Connétable John Le Maistre, panel member; Connétable Richard Vibert , panel member. We also have Adrian Lane, a lay panel member; Graeme Phipps , a lay panel member and Dr. Helen Miles , a lay panel member. Would you please introduce yourself and the team who are joining you today?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

It is Charlie Parker, I am the Chief Executive of the States. Catherine Madden is here at your request because I think you suggested that the 2 of us are the only officers you would chair today.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you very much and thank you finding the time. We will start with the first question, could you confirm the date of your departure from your post as Chief Executive?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey: I cannot.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

What is the reason for this?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey: Because it has not been finalised yet.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

When will it be finalised or at least approximately when do you think it will be finalised?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I had hoped it would have been finalised last week but unfortunately it has not yet so I cannot answer that question for you, Chair.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I understand. Can you please indicate what are the reasons that are stopping this happening, to finalise your departure date?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I do not think that is a matter for me, Chair, that is a matter for others. As far as I am concerned I have made it clear that I am prepared to manage an orderly transition. Discussions have taken place to ensure that that is done in the right way but there are issues which are linked to that which I am not privy to. I know the Council of Ministers and the States Employment Board have discussed the matter and have asked me to stay on a bit longer to enable that transition but the exact dates have yet to be finalised.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I understand, thank you. Given that we still do not know the time when you will leave we still would like to know some details of possible smooth transition. Given the limited time that you have left in your role we are concerned about the orderly transfers of your responsibilities and we would like to hear from you some key items regarding your role and responsibilities. It is likely that we will follow up with detailed questions in written form because the time of the public hearing is limited. Some key areas to address there, we had a long conversation is around estate management. As you prepare to depart your post, what are the issues within estate management that you believe will remain a prime concern? Can you provide individual examples and relevant details?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I am not totally sure, Chair, what that means.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Can I specify? What are your prime concerns about estate management portfolio within the States of Jersey?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

There are lots of concerns because there has been a lack of investment in the portfolio over many, many years. There is not the resources that have been put into developing the property management systems, which we have discussed on numerous occasions and followed up in recent correspondence with the committee. I made it clear I think when I last came to see you in July on this matter and went through an extensive series of questions that we were anticipating bringing forward the estate strategy and the corporate landlord arrangements before the end of 2020. That was including a more user friendly document that would be available for the public and for Members to better understand the technical nature of what is sometimes quite a complex subject matter. That document is about to be produced. It goes to the Council of Ministers meeting this Wednesday and then it will obviously be the subject of being forwarded on to the committee, which we have previously agreed would be all done by the end of 2020. We have, as you know, agreed that there will be a one public estate approach now to all of the way in which property matters are handled and the asset management arrangements are overseen. Those proposals have been agreed and endorsed through the Council of Ministers and we are doing that. As a consequence of that there is a lot of work that Jersey Property Holdings are associated with, which is looking at all the work around reactive orders, planned maintenance, minor and major capital projects, how asbestos management, water safety management, statutory maintenance arrangements are all undertaken. That is currently being handled using the Concerto Property Management System and then on the back of that, because we have now moved to a single arrangement, we are transitioning a lot of the benefits associated with the system to all departments. Clearly there are things that will still be outstanding and will take longer to achieve after my departure but some of those are about the

reporting modules, some of that is about reactive orders, some of that is about notifications around asbestos and the list goes on. But in terms of where I think the matter is, I believe that we have made significant progress as per my correspondence with the committee and also in line with what I laid out at the panel hearing in July. I am happy to go through any more detailed questions if that is required.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

First of all, it is good to know that the estates strategy is going in front of the Council of Ministers this coming Wednesday so hopefully in the next 2 or 3 weeks we can see. I will hand it to Adrian Lane to ask more specific questions about Concerto and other points that you have mentioned.

Mr. A. Lane:

Good afternoon, Mr. Parker. Just following up on the points around Concerto. Can you tell us now how much has been spent in total on that system, please?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Since 2015 I think it is about £240,000, which includes procurement, licences, development support and maintenance costs.

Mr. A. Lane:

But not the internal time spent posting information to it presumably?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Yes, I could not comment on that since 2015 because that was some years before I arrived in post.

Mr. A. Lane:

£240,000 to date, is there more to spend still to get it into final delivery?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

As I have said before, there are a number of other modules that need to be brought down and added on to the system. That includes some of the reporting modules that I referenced, which, if you want me to go through, I can do that, which includes all the departments who are migrating on to the system. The help desk log, reactive orders, compliance certification reporting modules, so that should be place by the end of quarter 1 in 2021. The key manager component which I talked about, which is ensuring that the tracking of keys, contractors, ensures its statutory notifications for asbestos, et cetera, that I referenced should also

Mr. A. Lane:

I think the committee interest is in the total spend. So how much will the total spend be and how does that compare to its original case.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I cannot give you the total spend because there are 4 more modules to come forward, which are due to be completed by the end of 2021 and until the final amount is laid out I am afraid I cannot give you that now, I can go away and certainly see if I can get a best estimate for that cost.

Mr. A. Lane:

Please. Are you able to tell us what monetary benefits have been realised compared to the original business case?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I can say that the fact that we have now got a proper system will give us a huge amount of added monetary value but I would have to go back to the original business case which was done 5 years before I arrived in post so it would be something I am not familiar with.

Mr. A. Lane:

I think I heard you say the system is now active for all departments for which it was originally intended?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

So it is active and it has been rolled out into all departments because of the changes that we made earlier this year as previously discussed with the committee, and those departments will get the full functionality as we do that. That is the health service, that is J.H.A. (Justice and Home Affairs), that is C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services), Children and Young People and also quite specifically we have a module that is linked to our sports assets as well. Now, we should be able to then fulfil the vision that was originally proposed, I am advised, in 2005. Clearly we are now progressing much more rapidly, picking up on the points that I referenced earlier about when the last modules should be complete, by the end of 2021.

Mr. A. Lane:

So that is the end of the programme for implementation?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That is the end of this phase of the programme. Clearly, as with all systems, you can add to them and it depends. So we have a secondary order set of issues which we are currently working through. As part of the information and technology system change programme which has been, again, highlighted with the committee in the past, we have an enterprise asset management component but that does not just cover property that covers a whole raft of other assets that we have across the States and the Government and that programme is due to complete the procurement phase by the end of first quarter 2021, and within that there will be other aspects of the enterprise asset management part of the I.T.S. (Information Technology System) that will come on stream over the next couple of years or more. That will not be an immediate benefit but it will bring us to the ISO 55000 standard, which is also something that we need to do.

Mr. A. Lane:

So the vision is its integration into the E.A.P. (Estate Action Plan) systems in total.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Yes, so initially to be fair the enterprise asset management scope goes beyond talking about rentals and leases and but it talk about assets in the broader sense, so lifecycle costs, Opex and Capex arrangements, business critical assets that affect the Government. There is an integration between capital budgets and what we spend on that, the information that goes into our financing system, our procurement system, which will help us also with some of our asset disposal arrangements. But that is much longer term and will take place obviously once I have departed.

Mr. A. Lane:

Thank you. You will be aware of an internal audit review of operations in the areas of property maintenance and an internal review initiated by the G.H.E. (Growth, Housing and Environment) Department, as was, gave a number of recommendations for implementation by December 2020. In light of that have you undertaken a risk assessment of the risk of inadequate maintenance of properties impacting occupant safety or public safety?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

The department has and is involved in that risk assessment. I think I answered some of the questions that came out of that in my letter back to the committee chair, if my memory serves me correct, of 16th October.

Mr. A. Lane:

Those risks have been escalated into the corporate risk register?

[00:15]

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Again, you asked that question and I answered that question in the letter. Some of the risks, where appropriate, are in the corporate risk register but some will be retained at the departmental level, depending on what the level of risk is and, indeed, what and how we compare the top parts of the corporate risk register when I say parts, that is the wrong description, priorities on the corporate risk register, which obviously cover a vast number of issues that the Government will be dealing with.

Mr. A. Lane:

Which, if they are crystallised, will have a material impact on the Government finances?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey: Sorry, say that again?

Mr. A. Lane:

Which of those risks, if crystallised, would have a material impact on government finances?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Well, the biggest risk is really at the moment on government finances linked to the proposal that there should be a programme of asset disposal which contributes towards reducing the amount of borrowing that the Government is currently undertaking in the post-COVID environment, and obviously we would be we should be able to deal with that in a way that hopefully will reduce the exposure for the Government to the amount of borrowing. But the risk is always about whether people will agree the disposal. So you will know that any disposal has to sit in front of the States Assembly for 4 weeks and historically there have been all sorts of propositions which have stopped the sale of many assets that we perhaps do not need anymore because of the views of those individual members who potentially might consider alternative uses for them. There are risks associated with that which outside of officers' control.

Mr. A. Lane:

Yes, but it is more the inbound risks, such as legionella, radon, fire, asbestos, et cetera, that I was thinking about here. What quantification is done around those?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Yes, although we have a number of properties where we do not have people occupying them so they are far less risks associated with those. It is only realistically where those buildings are currently in use. But you are quite right, and as I said earlier, as the Concerto system evolves and the role of the departments who are coming into the I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) area of responsibility and Jersey Property Holdings, then I think that we will be able to manage those key issues in the way that, again, I have previously outlined to the committee.

Mr. A. Lane:

So thinking about the mitigation of those risk, can you tell us, as we stand now what actions have been taken and what proportion of the portfolio does that remediate?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That would be inappropriate for me to know the detail of that. That is an operational issue that would sit with the relevant director and the relevant director general. Again, not wishing to be in any shape or form disrespectful but this is not what a chief executive would be doing on a day-to-day basis around the minutiae of the operational estate.

Mr. A. Lane:

That is fine but it sounds like your expectation then is actually that that director general should be able to answer that question?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

My expectation and it would have been had you allowed the director general to be in the meeting, which I am advised you were not willing to do, and we could have asked the director general. They are on with all of those mitigations trying to establish the right processes to be able to ensure that we can manage the risks associated with them. We have done that through the corporate property group that that director general chairs. We have the Concerto Property Management system now being put to good use. We have an up to date asset register which tells us a lot of the issues that I just referred to about the modules, which do deal with things like legionella. So much of that information now is available and is being used in a proactive way to ensure that our own asset management data and information is up to date and we are using it to support the estate in a way that means that it is not at risk and individuals are not at risk.

Mr. A. Lane:

That is helpful to know and I am sure we will follow up with the director of I.H.E. Inna, I will hand back to you now.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I would like to ask a couple of questions around the estate strategy that you mentioned. I looked back into the transcript from our meeting back in July and I found that we will have a user friendly and readable version happening in autumn. Can you now share with us a user friendly and readable version or not yet?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That is the reference I made going to the Council of Ministers on Wednesday.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is the Wednesday one, okay. We have seen lately sales of estate properties like Burrard Street and a couple more, in the situation that we do not have the estate strategy approved and at the same time we are selling property, how does it work together? How has the decision been made to put some properties on sale currently?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

You will always have some disposals that will take place. The estate strategy is a far broader document that looks at a range of issues that we are looking longer term to deal with around our estate. Again, I think we have discussed this at length over a number of meetings whereby some of those decisions unfortunately have been reliant on other Assembly decisions, most notably the hospital is a good example where until you have finalised a site that you were going to prioritise for the hospital, a number of other sites were not able to be progressed for disposal and/or to be used for other means. But within the confines of that we still also dispose of properties.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I am sorry to interrupt you, I do not want to go into the hospital because we are talking about the properties that are not related to the hospital project. At the same time, I take in your answer and I would like just to clarify: what are the principle strategic objectives contained in this strategy and how will their delivery be quantified? Would they be quantified in targets or will we see just high level strategy result targets?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

No, there is a strategy which is exactly what the name says and then there is a corporate landlord aspect to it which starts to get into a more detailed approach to how we are going to deal with property. On the back of that there will be then a detailed asset management plan, there will be a detailed disposals programme eventually and there will be other aspects which are associated about investment decisions and/or regeneration activity that will be contributed to by our property estate. What you are not going to get in this document, and I think I made that very clear, is when are you going to sell property X, in what year and what month, because it does not work like that. But going back to your other question, which I was endeavouring to answer at the end, there will still be some sales of property which are not contributing to either regeneration, investment or whatever decisions. Linked to that, as I think is being laid out in the Government Plan, the Government has agreed that there will be, in the early part of 2021 a set of criteria around disposals for ringfencing those disposals that will be used to offset any debt that the Government is borrowing in order to support the economy and post-COVID decision-making.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you, I think we will follow up with some questions around strategy. We will see the strategy and it will be easier to follow up with questions. I hope it will be before your departure. Also more questions about the maintenance because we did several but will follow it up. I will hand over to the Constable of St. Peter to ask a follow up question.

Connétable R. Vibert of St. Peter :

Thank you very much, Mr. Parker, for taking part in this hearing this afternoon. Does the Estate Strategy outline the best long-term use and plans for all of the States properties, including which properties should be divested? Are plans and property upgrades in place to maximise the value of the properties prior to the divestiture and are similar plans in place for properties determined to be used at a later date by the States?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Connétable , I think I just tried to answer that question a minute ago. I think it is probably a variation on the one that the Chair asked. So the strategy is a high-level document but it has a corporate landlord part to it. There will be then subsequently aspects of disposal programmes, asset management programmes, investment for our investment decisions and regeneration decisions. They will follow as part of a more comprehensive set of detailed proposals pertaining to those particular issues. If you were talking about are you going to dispose of 20 properties in this year, they will need to be able to be assessed against whether they fit the criteria, for example, is it better to hold on to them because they could be used for other means, whether that is housing or whether it could stimulate regeneration, or whether there is a reason that you would dispose of them. Do you need to upgrade them? Do you need to sell? Do you need to buy some? Each of those decisions will follow from the more detailed implementation plans that flow from the strategy.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Thank you very much. We have been informed by the director general for I.H.E. that the States of Jersey Development Company has been commissioned to undertake a piece of consultancy work to assess the best location to dispose of, acquire and develop real estate activities on behalf of the Government and to make recommendations on those activities of the S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) and Jersey Property Holdings, to inform both organisations' delivery models in the future. Considering this, could you advise on the following: what are the terms of reference and desired outcomes of this work?

I think I referred to this again in my hearing in July where we talked about the problems with regard to some of the duplication that takes place between States owned entities and/or arm's length organisations. In particular we talked about S.o.J.D.C. and J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings). There is a piece of work which has been commissioned to look at how best these 2 organisations can work together and which arm, as you might say, of government through either the arm's length function or direct function is best deployed to deal with the activity. For example, it is probably much more appropriate for S.o.J.D.C. to be involved in development. If the Government was going to use land to help with the redevelopment of some of its estate, it is probably through S.o.J.D.C. that you would best discharge that. There are equally much more appropriate arrangements which would be delivered through J.P.H. for asset management and day-to-day management of our estate, whether that is a school or whether that is the energy to waste facility, et cetera, where you require different skills. We can provide the terms of reference for the joint study, work which is out at the moment for commissioning, I am happy to do that for the committee offline.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Thank you very much. Do you have any costs for the work involved?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

The tenders for the work have come in and are due to be finalised over the next short period. On the back of that we can then give you any estimated costs that have been attributed to the tender that comes through the procurement process.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

When considering this, did you consider that there might be any potential conflict of interest in that S.o.J.D.C. might wish to develop some of these sites in the future and also S.o.J.D.C. perhaps making decisions about Jersey Property Holdings future dealings with the property?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

No, because what we are trying to do is get greater clarification because we think at the moment there is duplication. We do not have enough appropriate arrangements for dealing with some of the property issues that we face. J.P.H. has been significantly under resourced over a long period of time and S.o.J.D.C. are set up to do more development work than they are to do, as I said, earlier asset management work. So part of this study is to bring the 2 organisations' term of reference together, look at them, see how it is best to develop that.

[00:30]

Then, on the back of that, agree the roles and responsibilities between S.o.J.D.C. and the Government services in I.H.E., which then in turn will ensure that we avoid those sorts of potential areas of conflict and/or create much better value for the investment that we make around property at a time when we have limited resources available to us. So I am pretty confident that the work that will be done will improve the lines of communication, the areas of responsibility, and create better synergies in partnership working.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

So from what you are saying, although S.o.J.D.C. have been commissioned to do the work, I am assuming ...

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

No, sorry, they are handling the commission but it is a joint piece of work with ourselves. So we have gone out through them because they have more capacity to be able to handle that. But it is a joint piece of work between the States and S.o.J.D.C. It is not S.o.J.D.C. dictating back to the States.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

You have just answered the next bit of my question. I assume they are working closely with Jersey Property Holdings at the same time.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Yes. The work is being overseen by a joint group, which includes the director general and the chief executive of S.o.J.D.C. The board of S.o.J.D.C. are fully engaged in this. Obviously, we have talked to the Minister as well. So I do not think there are any issues there about potential conflicts. The Council of Ministers agreed this approach some months ago, which hopefully we will be able to now progress.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

Finally, did you consider the observations of the C. & A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) into the management of arm's length organisations when you appointed S.o.J.D.C.?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

S.o.J.D.C. have not been appointed, Connétable . S.o.J.D.C. are procuring, that is all, procuring the independent piece of work, which has been jointly commissioned, in order to look at the terms and the operational way in which we can get better synergies, better value for money, and utilise the expertise that is both within S.o.J.D.C. and Jersey Property Holdings. So it is not that they are doing the work. They are in effect procuring the work in conjunction with ourselves. As I have said, there

is a joint management arrangement for that and that jointly working with officers from both organisations.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

At our public hearing on 27th July, you described the establishment of the Corporate Asset Management Board, which: "Is about better co-ordination and we have made some revisions to the terms of reference and roles and responsibilities of the Regeneration Steering Group." Can you update us on the progress you have made in the last 12 months with the Corporate Asset Management Board?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Again, that board is chaired by the director general. I outlined what it has been doing last time we met. I do not sit on that board. It would not be appropriate for me to sit on it. It is a matter for the director general because it is an operational responsibility that sits with the director general. I am sure the director general will be able to bring forward a more detailed update for the committee. But in my contribution on 27th July I outlined some of the things that we were now doing. We got departments around the table. We have moved to the one public estate approach. There was a lot more, going back to the discussion that we have just had about Concerto, where that is being rolled out against all the departments who have now come under the auspices of I.H.E. and Jersey Property Holdings in terms of the property oversight. So I am very happy for an update to be provided to the committee through the director general once this meeting is finished.

The Connétable of St. Peter :

We now pass to Deputy Gardiner for the next question.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Yes, an update would be greatly accepted. Chief Executive, I would like to move now to business continuity and transition, because we would like to keep as much as possible from your experience and from your insights that the work will continue. The first questions, what are principal deliverables what you expect to complete before your departure from the role?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

There are a number of key projects, which obviously there are different phases to. So by way of example, the hospital, subject to the States agreeing the next stage on ensuring that the access road is understood. We have the outline for the business case, which should be ready sometime in the early spring, which I will be looking to oversee as the chair of the officer group that is responsible for the hospital project. There will be a range of Government Plan initiatives that will need to be kicked off, subject to the debate that will be held next week. Within that, there are a number of fiscal stimulus projects that have been brought forward and have to be agreed, which in my role as Principal Accounting Officer I will have some input into ensuring that all the financial oversight is done in the right way. The Council of Ministers have just agreed the next stage for Fort Regent and the sports strategy, of which there are a number of milestones between now and the end of the first quarter in 2021, which I will be playing a role in as one of the senior officers involved in that particular initiative. Then we have the Government/States office development, which again has been referenced in the Government Plan. Subject to decisions that will be made by the Council of Ministers this week and discussed with Scrutiny, the contracts for that should be exchanged and started, subject to the Government Plan being approved, in the first quarter of 2021. The information technology programme I referenced earlier; we were due to be making an appointment by March 2021. So again I play an important role in supporting the Chief Operating Officer on that particular initiative and getting the organisation ready for the appointment to be made and then the work that would need to be done over the next couple of years. We have a whole series of key strategic issues, such as the Island Plan adoption work that is due to move forward in the first quarter of 2021, which is hugely important in setting out a range of land use and other key strategic priorities. There is public consultation programmes. There is oversight of the preparation of that work and the need to ensure that is maintained. We have the inspection of Children's Services that was originally planned for around the spring of 2021. So working with the director general because I am involved in the Improvement Board. I would obviously be looking to ensure that we are ready for any inspection, albeit that I think it is quite likely that will be slightly delayed because of COVID. We have the impact of the Brexit negotiations that may run into the first quarter of 2021. As well as any ongoing COVID-19 phase 2 issues including the rollout of the vaccine, which again I am closely involved in. So, in terms of projects that will be quite immediate over the next few weeks and months, they are some of the much easier ones to touch, feel and identify. There are, however, quite a significant number of other initiatives that we will be continuing during that time around organisational change, cultural change, et cetera, which I am happy to go through with you.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Chief Executive, it is really helpful that you stated several projects, more than several, and I assume that it is ongoing work that should be carried forward. From your answers, I would like to clarify and understand the factual. You quoted several times quarter spring, first quarter 2021, spring 2021. Can I assume, based on this, that the handover will be through the first quarter until the spring 2021 and you will continue to be involved with these projects?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Further to the point I raised at the beginning of this meeting, Chair, I am afraid I cannot give the final answer to that. But I have said to the Chief Minister and to colleagues that I would be prepared to work through the first quarter of 2021. But it may be that decision is not mine to make.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Now, okay, I will question one specific thing that I just put it down as kind of right. Business case for the hospital that you are chair of the officers oversight group, you will continue to follow up regardless if you are the Chief Executive?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

If I am not the Chief Executive, obviously I am not the Principal Accounting Officer, I do not then have any accounting officer responsibilities, so I would not be involved in any projects. This is all on the proviso that I am still ensuring that there is an orderly transition for areas of work that I have some direct or oversight responsibilities for. So those initiatives that I highlighted to you are some of the projects that I am involved in and take a direct role in. But there are lots of other things that I do outwith that. But you asked for some of the things where there would be immediate impact over the next short period.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Who determines what projects you need to finalise or complete before your departure and how will your progress be monitored?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I am assuming that some of those projects that I have just highlighted, they all have project plans. We all have key milestones and dates that we are working to. So, within the confines of that, there will be easy ways in which you can determine whether those have been met. That is pretty straightforward. So I do not think there would be a problem from a project perspective. On the initiatives that are broader than that, there is a whole raft of initiatives in the Government Plan. Until we get the Government Plan approved one way or the other, I cannot give you some of those. But again we have behind them business cases, which have a range of implementation and delivery proposals attached to them, which again, where I am involved, would be a mechanism for being able to see how much progress is being made. Then there is all the sorts of things that, if we were to go through how the committee has previously worked on the P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) legacy report around organisational culture, decision-making, corporate learning, financial management and financial directions, and management information, which are slightly different. But also have within them quite a lot of key milestones and dates as well.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Reflecting on your time in your role, we would like to learn from your experience, would you please give specific examples of your 3 - but please, please, 3 - top achievements during the last 2½ years so we will continue these initiatives?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

The range of change that was needed when I first came was huge. There are a lot of things that I think contribute to ensuring that you get and deliver as radical a programme of change and maintain that going forward. It would be difficult to focus on 3.

[00:45]

Where I think though we have had achievements, 3 major achievements that I think are important, is probably we brought a lot more rigor to our financial management and oversight and the performance of the organisation, which has moved on significantly since 2017/18 with the Public Finances (Jersey) Law being introduced. The role of the Principal Accounting Officer, which brings all departments to come together. The Government Plan, which was never done before where you brought income and expenditure together in one place. Rolling 4-year financial planning. The way in which annual accounts and the annual report is now done, which is the fastest it has ever been. The whole way in which better financial reporting, both operationally and also to the Council of Ministers, takes place. But, on top of that, there are a whole host of improvements around financial management, which is important, including the Public Finances Manual being introduced, which is easier for colleagues to use. It is publicly available. It is much more modern and up to date, which helps Islanders understand where public money comes. So we have a better principle-based approach to financial management, financial directions, which I think is the bedrock of any sound organisation. If you are not managing and controlling the finances properly, then you always have an organisational deficit. The second bit for me is the introduction of the One-Government approach around organisational culture, investment in people. The way in which that has improved decision- making and supports accountability for performance. So breaking down the silos, moving the approach around customer. How we have invested through Team Jersey. What we have been doing around the way in which the organisation is facing up to the bullying culture that is endemic or was endemic here. The appraisals around My Conversation My Goals. The fact we even have a proper corporate induction programme, My Welcome, which was never there before. The way in which senior leaders come together. The way in which we celebrate success, which we did again last week with the One Government awards. The fact that we have quite a lot of organisational change in the way in which departments now come together. That would lead me to my third major area where I think the OneGov, the better financial management, the way in which we work, the fact that we have been able to invest in people, was best deployed and that is through the way in which we have responded to COVID. As an organisation, we would not have been able to do that without having the changes that have been implemented since the beginning of 2018. But unfortunately, obviously, have yet to be fully completed.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Looking back, what would you have done differently? Would you provide 3 areas that should be reconsidered or revised because they were less effective?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I underestimated the lack of investment that had taken place over the last decade in people and in a lot of our systems. So the fact that we do not have the right organisational base in which you can then begin to make the changes has taken a long time to deal with. We are not even there yet. So, going back to my point about the I.T. system, the fact that we do not have your payroll linked to your people  information  linked  to  your  procurement  information  linked  to  your  asset  management information is a huge problem for an organisation such as here in Jersey. You would have expected that sort of issue to have been resolved before I came here. So we have a lot of legacy systems that were never maintained, which has obviously been a big issue. The scale of that and the changes and the investment that has been needed is something that has created a lot of problems around timing, about having to go back and get that investment agreed in subsequent Government Plans. It is huge investment. Most organisations would have been doing that as a matter of course over the last decade and you would have had that foundation in place, which is huge. Second area, the way in which the organisation was grouped and operated in departmental silos was a huge challenge. Just getting, by way of example, finance to be in one place is a good example of the sort of positive changes that we have made to reinforce things that I highlighted earlier. It was really quite a big challenge to get people to understand how best to be able to deliver some of the target operating models. I had assumed at the beginning that there was a lot more infrastructure in place to be able to support that process. Just to give you an example, job evaluation processes. We just do not have the right number of people who can do it and it has provided a real blockage. It has been challenging for people who are not used to change to find themselves having to spend longer going through some of those organisational processes which are very important to them. If you are potentially faced with losing your job or going into a new job, those are real issues that you have to deal with. I have said in previous meetings, it has been incredibly difficult to deal with some of those things where you just do not have the basics in place that you would expect in most modern organisations. That combined with the lack of change that has occurred over a longer period, where people do not register that change is the new normal, and so you constantly evolve and move forward and do things. In some instances we have not changed functions for 30 or 40 years. That is a huge issue when you are trying to deal with this. I genuinely probably underestimated some of that at the beginning. That was quite difficult for me to accommodate and put in place the right infrastructure without having to buy-in staff. That obviously created all sorts of pressures for other reasons where people were concerned about that. So understanding some of that and the infrastructure necessary were 2 of the bigger issues that I faced. Then I guess, if I think back, trying to get to terms with the fact that there had been so little money spent on staff over a longer period meant that again created a further problem about organisationally being able to have the infrastructure to support people through change. We have obviously secured through the Government Plan last year significant investment but that process has been compounded during this year because of COVID and being in a place where you have to work remotely, where you cannot sit with staff and work with staff through some of the challenges that they face at a departmental level or organisationally. So, again, introducing and rolling out the Team Jersey programme during COVID has been a problem. But we are back on, we are doing it. We are doing it online. We are doing it through interventions with departmental management teams. But it has been quite challenging to do that during this year. When we did not have that investment right from the beginning, getting it there, getting the right people, training people up, ensuring that colleagues were able to go forward and become Team Jersey leads, has been a longer process than I might have expected in other places where I have introduced change. So the change programme here is much slower than I have been used to in the 4 big change programmes I have done over the last 20 years.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I appreciate. I have 2 follow-up questions about employer's engagement and I am taking that it was a slower process that you expected. When you arrived in 2018, the employee engagement was 50 per cent and the recent data that was released in November, employee engagement 53. It has raised only by 3 per cent. Are you satisfied with a 3 per cent increase in engagement and were you hoping for more? From your experience in previous organisations, how does 53 per cent compare to the U.K. (United Kingdom) public sector? I think in Westminster it is much higher.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Yes, but no one at the time had COVID. So during this year all bets are off for anything where you are not able to see staff, you are not able to network with staff, you are not able to spend time with staff, in the same way that you would if you were not working remotely. Staff have been fantastic. The organisation has responded magnificently to COVID. But it has impacted hugely on your ability to get engagement levels where you would like them to be. This organisation started from a very low base because a large amount of work was done just purely at departments. So, if you had a very good department, which did a lot of work around engagement, you are always going to have higher rates. If you were in a department, which perhaps had not had such good levels of engagement, they are bound to be lower. But in all the other organisations I worked in there was only one organisation. Here we have had to create the one organisation because before there were a huge number of departments and each of those were an organisation. That is the way in which the Principal Accounting Officer role has been able to influence also being able to have some oversight about how you spend your money, you deal with some of these big organisational cultural changes. I do not think in this year you will find many organisations will have made huge progress. In fact, if you benchmark, I suspect, against the Sunday Times best list, I would imagine large numbers of public sector organisations, and private, will have seen their engagement scores and indices go down. So there is a uniqueness around COVID, which will have distorted the figures. But, going back to your question about what would I see, I said this was a 5-year programme before you will see the real benefits. We are only at year 3 and I will not be here obviously to lead the organisation in years 4 and 5. It takes 5 years to get to the levels that you would expect. But that is with an organisation that is used to change and, even if it does not like change, it gets on with things. This organisation has obviously not been subject to as much change, and therefore you have a huge uncertainty that you have to deal with. That creates a real dip in organisational engagement and culture indices. We have seen that. We have talked about that on numerous occasions. You will not see that improve ...

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I am sorry to interrupt you. Again I do apologise but I would like to keep our answers short. I understand your point of view. Interestingly enough, from several reports that we have heard from the private corporates that interestingly enough during the COVID they have increased engagement following their review. So we need to look into this deeper. But I would like to move to next question

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Chair, if the organisation is a smaller organisation, I understand that. There have been some really good examples. We are several thousand people spread across a huge disparate number of functions. You are not comparing apples with applies.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I am not comparing apples with apples but also I am comparing with Westminster rate at 70 per cent. But I would move to the next question, which is about target operating models. Has the progress on target operating models have been what you anticipated? What needs to happen to ensure these changes are implemented in full and embedded?

[01:00]

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I just said in my previous contribution that it had been slower than I would have liked. I have made that clear also in a number of other presentations to this committee. I suspect that it will be in the majority, the target operating models will be complete by the end of this calendar year, apart from the establishment of the new economy function, which is obviously going to roll into the beginning of 2021. I also made the point that we did not have some of the infrastructure to be able to help us deal with it. So job evaluation was a good example of how bringing together all the business managers for people services and then getting the right business manager arrangements for the departments took longer than I would have expected, because it was not there at the beginning in the way that it needed to be. The lack of investment, which we again highlighted at the beginning, meant that we could not get, until last year, the monies necessary to be able to help with some of the organisational change to support the target operating models as I would have ideally liked. So there are lessons to be learned and there are things that I would have done better and differently had I been able to do that and started from a different base. But we are making good progress on that and I believe that it has contributed hugely to the way in which we have responded to COVID.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I understand, thank you very much. We are progressing and the process is ongoing. At the same time we are aware there are still some issues with low compliance within the Infrastructure, Housing and Environment, and conflict within Justice and Home Affairs. We will follow this up with a written question. We will move to the next one. Graeme, can you please come in and ask your questions? Thank you.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Good afternoon, Mr. Parker. I have just a couple of questions I would like to address to you. One is regarding expenditures. In total, the Government net expenditure has risen from £789,500 in 2017 to £913,056 in 2020 and predicted to rise to £9,990,364 million in 2024. This is all excluding COVID, which is over and above that. Given the importance of expenditures we all are concerned with, and we can get some more details in writing following this, can you give us just a general overview of these rises, increases in expenditures and any comments you have in that regard?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

It is not normally the remit of P.A.C. to come in on this area, if you do not mind me saying. We have provided these answers to a range of other committees over the last 2 years. So I am not totally sure why that has now been picked up here when it is the remit of the Corporate Services, which has been talking to the Minister for Treasury and Resources and the Chief Minister on it. Had I known that you wanted to ask some questions, I would have brought the Treasurer in to go through some of the detail. But it is not normally the remit, as I say, of the committee. We made it very clear that there has been investment made by the Government but there has also been reductions in public expenditure. Because what you are quoting is the totality of all government expenditure across a whole raft of different activities. I am very happy to go into it but we will be here for some considerable time if we are going to start to go into this area, which we have covered numerous times with other committees. I am not totally sure it is going to be the best place in which I am going to be able to provide that sort of answer, bearing in mind the Chair's desire to have a much more reduced set of answers from me.

Mr. G. Phipps :

Fair enough and I understand your comments there. I guess our biggest concern, or bigger concern, is really the ongoing success of government's ability to serve the people of this Island. I guess the second question I have addresses to the orderly transition. What are the kind of things you are going to do and focus on to ensure that your successor can be set up for success and continue to lead this Island on to the kind of things you have initiated?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

First  off it depends  how  the  organisation  is going  to  take  forward the  arrangements  for my replacement. So it depends whether they are going for a permanent replacement or an interim arrangement prior to making a permanent long-term appointment. Clearly, in any period, you would provide a handover to the individual and you would start to go through some of the projects that I have a direct oversight from to ensure that they are up to speed and au fait with all of the key staging points. Secondly, you would want to guide them through what might be quite a complex and different landscape than they are used to. This is a government, it works differently. It has its own unique legislative programme and arrangements around tax and benefits and support for Islanders as an independent jurisdiction. So in that sense it is very different, depending on where you have worked, from either being in a large jurisdiction's government or if you have been at a different tier of government, whether that is in a jurisdiction or in somewhere like the U.K. For people who are not used to that, there is certainly going to be some adjustment, depending on whether you are an interim or the permanent appointment. That will mean that you will need to get your head around some of those issues quite quickly and understand what that impact will be. Depending again on those arrangements, you would want to ensure that there was continuity and you would want to build on some of the key initiatives that are going to support some of the changes that I talked about before. You would want to make sure that you had in place all the relevant documentation support for ensuring that some of the organisational changes, whether it is around performance, financial management, et cetera, were fully understood. You have just quoted a range of issues about how we do our finances here in Jersey. It is very different from other places. The accounting processes are different. We are making that transition. Somebody coming in new will have to learn all of that and they will have to get up to speed as to how particularly if they are not used to Dell accounting as well. So there are different financial criteria that you would want to support with the Treasurer and incoming Chief Executive, which is critical. You will also need to be able to ensure that there is a  smooth  handover  around  2  key strategic  areas,  one  is  Brexit  and  whether  there  are  any implications from whether there is a deal or a no-deal position at the end of December. What that might mean around the resilience and security for the Island from supply chains right the way through

to the way in which we put in place alternative means to be able to ensure people can access goods and supply lines. Having been involved in a lot of the work for the Day One No Deal programme, which was established 12 months ago, clearly someone getting their heads around that and getting to grips with that, if that became a problem, would be an important area of handover. COVID, we are in a different situation to other jurisdictions, ensuring that people understand how it works, the decision-making, the processes involved in the vaccine rollout, et cetera. All of that will have to be transitioned through over the next couple of months if I am here in that time. Obviously, we are not going to see huge numbers of return to normal life operations occurring before probably spring 2021. Then the other thing is, if you are working in a remote environment or if you are not fully back to working in the normal place that you would do, you have all that handover about making sure that key stakeholders, key individuals, would be able to be introduced in the right way to help anyone transitioning in, to start to meet partners, key leaders in the organisation, obviously senior politicians, et cetera. So there will be a huge amount of work to try to provide as good a platform for anyone to come in, to be able to lead the organisation over whatever period they are here for.

Mr. G. Phipps :

That is very helpful. I guess we hope to get that documented so, as we move forward, all those ideas and initiatives and thoughts you have, we can benefit as we move forward. I will turn this over to the next line of questions.

Connétable K. Shenton-Stone of St. Martin :

Good afternoon, Mr. Parker. I am just moving on to your decision to step down and related items. Why have you decided to step down from the position of Chief Executive?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I think I made that clear in my letter to the Chief Minister. It was unfortunately something that I was asked to do and then there was going to be some decisions that were made that I could not agree to. So I felt that it was appropriate for me to step down.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I would just comment there that it seems unusual to sacrifice a role worth about £250,000 per annum for a place on a board worth £50,000. That is just a comment that has come through.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

Let me just deal with the comment, because, if you had read my letters, I had made very clear what had happened. Being on a N.E.D. (Non-Executive Director) is not an unusual situation and is, in any organisation, something that you would try to encourage if it was for the benefit of that organisation. I am not receiving any financial remuneration so it was in no shape or form beneficial to me in that respect. Any work that I was going to be doing as a N.E.D. would have been in my own time. But the basis of that opportunity, I felt, could provide Jersey with a huge amount of additional information. I refer you to my letter of 29th October, which went to the Chief Minister and was published and made available to all States Members. When I got permission to go on the board given to me in writing and confirmed, then that should have been the end of the matter. There was no either/or, it was something that was quite easy to be able to deal with and should not have been a matter that resulted in anyone either trying to make me stand down and/or to bring a vote of no confidence, as I have made clear. It was an administrative oversight, which I apologised to the States Employment Board. But it is a very strange situation for an organisation to want to create a crisis over something as small as this. It is an uncontroversial individual employment matter which has been used as a catalyst to challenge the Government.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

The next question is, would the value of your financial compensation that you received be recorded and included in the States of Jersey annual report and accounts 2020 or 2021?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That is a matter for the accounting arrangements in whatever year anything ever happens for the reporting of any financial information.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Could you provide a timeline of events from when you were first approached about this non- executive directorship to the announcement of your decision to step down on 9th November 2020? Specifically, when did the Chief Minister give his initial verbal approval? Where or how did it take place?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I have given that in the letter that I wrote on 29th October that went through the detailed timeline, Constable. If you have that in front of you you will be able to see all the dates and the times of what happened, both in terms of being approached, right the way through to when that then was endorsed by the States Employment Board.

[01:15]

The Connétable of St. Martin :

When did you sign the contract with New River? When and in what form, written or verbal, have you notified the States Employment Board itself and/or the chair?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

So I made it very clear in the communications that I did not need to get the States Employment Board's permission. I got my line manager's permission but I failed, as a courtesy, to inform the States Employment Board on the notification of my appointment as a director at the beginning of September 2020. That is a matter of record as I have apologised for that oversight, which was an administrative oversight, and I then subsequently had everything confirmed as I have laid out in my correspondence, which is now a matter of public record.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What date was your first board meeting at New River and how many meetings have taken place since your appointment?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

My first board meeting for New River was in September 2020 and I have attended one other board meeting virtually, in my own time and at no cost or expense to the States, nor in terms of any impact on my day-to-day operational responsibilities as the Chief Executive.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

What potential risks did you understand your appointment as a non-executive director might have had when you first spoke to the Chief Minister about this appointment?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

There are no risks. There are perceived risks. The Chief Minister made it very clear that he did not feel that any potential opportunities should be remunerated or anything should be done in work time. That was a condition of me progressing the interest that had been extended to me. So, other than that, there are no other risks because the company has no operational remit in Jersey. It has an employees' benefit trust, which is registered here, and it has one company registration here. But that is it. That has no bearing on me, it has no bearing on our operational arrangements here. Therefore there is no conflict of interest. The whole purpose of my involvement at the beginning, or potential involvement, was that they did not want someone with any potential conflicts of interest, hence why they did not appoint anybody who was active in the U.K. in terms of either local or central government. So I am not sure where you, Constable, think that there is a potential conflict of interest.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

I am just asking the questions on behalf of the panel.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

In my letter of the 29th I have made clear all of those issues around no operational business interests in Jersey and I made it clear from the outset, had there been a change in that, then I would have had to review my position as a board member. If necessary, that would have either meant I did not take up the post or I would have stepped down from the post. But there was no conflict of interest.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Just moving on to the press release, the press release by the communications team wrongly stated that both the Chief Minister and the Deputy Chief Minister gave consent to your appointment. Who gave the information to the communications team?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

So, when you say "wrongly stated" that is a matter that you will have to take up with the Chief Minister.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Were you the one who signed off on it?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That matter is a matter for the Chief Minister who has been looking at the matter. There is a process and a protocol for signing off all States press releases, which is being slightly revised, of which there is a split between officers and ministerial oversight and sign off. That is a matter that you will need to talk to the Chief Minister about.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

My final question to you is: what is your view on this issue and the debacle about the communications?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I am very disappointed by the events, both personally and professionally. Some short-term expediency has prevailed at the expense of trying to deliver lasting and long-term change that I was brought in to deliver but was never going to be easy and would always alienate some people who did not want change and/or who had a vested interest. Some of my comments have been made clear in the way in which this has been reported and it has been an interesting response from many Islanders who feel both embarrassed and ashamed at the way in which I have been treated on this matter. I personally feel, as I have said in my letter to the Chief Minister on 9th November, this is a job I love, it is in a beautiful place that I am privileged to call home and I did not wish to leave.

The Connétable of St. Martin :

Thank you very much. I will pass you on to the Chair.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Mr. Parker, thank you very much for your questions, sorry, answers. I understand that it is not an easy decision and it was not an easy situation for all parties involved. I would like just to clarify a couple facts to pick up on them. The moment that you signed the contract with New River, have you notified the Chief Minister, which is your line manager, that it has been signed and you start your N.E.D. position?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

It is not a contract. You sign your declaration as a board director. That is what I ...

Deputy I. Gardiner :

When you signed your declaration as a board director.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

That was done. I had already notified the Chief Minister, as I have explained before, that New River were minded to appoint me in August of this year.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Now it has been just to understand for the clarity, I know that you had asked verbally for permission from the Chief Minister, which was given. You had notified him that it is what you intending to do and you progressed with the conversation with New River. I am asking the moment that you have signed the declaration - which was, I do not know, July when did you sign, July, August? - have you immediately notified the Chief Minister or States Employment Board that it has been done and you are going forward?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I have already said I notified the Chief Minister verbally in August, and others, and I have already made that point. I also made the point that I did not notify the States Employment Board at that time, albeit that I did not need to, but I subsequently did and that was agreed and in writing. I have apologised to both the Chief Minister for not doing it in writing and also to the States Employment Board for not notifying earlier but there were mitigating circumstances.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you very much, that is really clear and understood. Another question, very quick one. It is about the infrastructure fund that has been developed. Can you clarify which infrastructure fund was developed that is mentioned in your C.V. (curriculum vitae) on the website?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

So as has been explained on a number of occasions, there was an infrastructure fund proposal that was in the Government Plan for 2020, which we were developing ready to come forward in this year, which obviously that work has been slowed by the COVID arrangements. But the infrastructure fund work also forms part of the 2021 Government Plan and so we will be building on that into 2021. Also, I have delivered 2 other infrastructure funds in my previous existence, significant ones. One has now something just under £1 billion under management and one has less than that but was developed some years ago, albeit it is now not operating because it was part-funded through European money. So there has been some confusion that emanated from the original press statement about infrastructure funding that I had been involved in and set up previously and I have experience of, quite extensive experience, and infrastructure funding which we are developing here in Jersey, which is being taken forward in both the 2020 and the 2021 Government Plans.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I understand. Now it is clear. I definitely understand that you have experience previously and the Jersey infrastructure fund is still under development. Thank you very much, it is really important to clarify. Can you please confirm, do you know if any States of Jersey or government funds are invested in New River? If you do not know, can you find out?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I am not aware that any funds are invested in New River.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

The last question, and it follows your first answer, you have been asked, you said, to step down. Is it possible to explain what was the reason or who asked you? The decisions that you were not ready to accept and this also was your part to step down, because you did have a choice. Obviously the choice is there but choice was probably between worse and worse. So who asked you to do that?

Chief Executive, States of Jersey:

I have answered, Chair. In my letter I have answered and I have made it very clear in my various communications, of which most have been made public, where I am at. I made it very, very clear that it would be completely untenable for me as the Chief Executive to have to step down from the position for something that I already had permission for. It was not controversial, had no conflict of interest, of which I received no financial remuneration, and I did that work in my own time, which was aimed at trying to use that experience to be able to help with Jersey. I felt that it was completely untenable for me to be in a place where, having been given that permission for something that we are also promoting elsewhere in the organisation so you will have not necessarily remembered the detail, but the fact on the day that a lot of this broke we had already made arrangements for apprenticeship board members, particularly for those not as senior and as well represented in the organisation, to be able to sit on our States-owned entities and other arm's length bodies. Where we as an organisation have lots of our staff who sit as non-executive directors or directors of charities, of companies, that sit in Jersey. So the I Will programme that we did where we went out and got board apprenticeships to support women from public service into leadership role have been all agreed. For then the lead official of the organisation to be forced to stand down from something that they had been given permission for, and it had been agreed, of which there was no impact on their day-to-day job, was untenable.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you for your answers and I am minded of the time that we need to finish. There are couple remarks that I would like to make. First of all, it is important to state that P.A.C. has a remit to ask about efficacies of spending public money and this is the reason that we will follow up with several questions including increase in overall expenditure. Another point, during the public hearings we are asking questions that public are interested in here and maybe not everybody has read the letter, but we as State Members have definitely read the letter. But it does not mean that we cannot ask the questions during the public hearing. So, as I indicated, the committee will follow up with written question about your views on your role for the Government of Jersey and various workstream. I wish you all the best. I am not sure if you will be here in February for the next quarterly hearing. If you are here it will be great to meet and to have our conversation. If we will not meet in the public hearing, I wish you the best in your new adventures. Thank you very much and I am closing the public hearing.

Chief Executive, States of Jersey: Thank you very much indeed.

[01:30]