Transcript - Quarterly Public Hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure - 26 January 2021

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Public Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Tuesday, 26th January 2021

Panel:

Connéable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair) Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville (Vice-Chair) Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade

Deputy S.G. Luce of St. Martin

Witnesses:

Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour, The Minister for Infrastructure

Mr. G. Forrest, Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards

Mr. T. Dodd, Head of Transport and Infrastructure

Mr. R. Hayward, Senior Transport Planner

Mr. A. Scate, Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment Mr. T. Daniels, Director, Jersey Property Holdings

[11:36]

Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade (Chair):

Good  morning,  Minister,  and  welcome  to  this  hearing  with  the  Environment,  Housing  and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. I will start off by introducing the panel. Myself, Constable Mike Jackson , Chair; Constable John Le Maistre, Deputy Chair; Constable Sadie Rennard; Deputy Inna Gardiner ; Deputy Graham Truscott and Deputy Steve Luce . Over you to you, Minister.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Thank you, Chair, for that warm welcome. I have 2 members of the team to start off with. Gordon Forrest, who is head of D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) and Tristan Dodd, who is head of Transport and Infrastructure. Hopefully, shortly, we may have Mr. Rob Hayward joining us too from the department.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Thank you. We are going to start with vehicle testing. Is the panel's understanding that the vehicle testing options appraisal consultation has commenced? Could you please update us on its progress?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly, I will hand you over to Gordon Forrest.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Morning, everyone. So in March 2020, pre-COVID, we appointed a local management consultancy, Prosperity 24/7, to undertake the options appraisal to determine the best way to carry out vehicle inspections in the Island. Unfortunately we then had the lockdown and had to put the project on hold. We restarted at the end of October 2020 and sent a survey around the garages to find out their capability and their willingness to carry out the inspections. We received the results of the survey early January, they were very mixed. Without going into too much detail, we find generally that the larger garages were keener and in a better position to carry out inspections due to availability of land and finance, and a lot of the smaller garages came back saying that they were not in the position to carry out inspections. Because there was such a diverse response we felt we should delve down a bit deeper so we held workshops last week and the week before, split into 3 groups of the large garages, medium sized and smaller garages, and we are just working on the feedback that we have received from them at the moment. That is where we are.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

What is the timeline regarding the consultation process and what does it involve?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Well, the timeline is that once we have finished with the garages and have all the feedback we need we are then looking at what sort of public consultation we should carry out in February. We will then collate everything in March, we will look at the other options other than the garages, we have to investigate them and we think we will be in the position towards the end of March of putting a business plan together with a preferred option and going to the Minister with the preferred option at the end of March.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Thank you. You suggested that you targeted the  smaller and larger garages as part of the consultation, were there any other organisations connected with Jersey's motor industry who were consulted?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We consulted the Jersey Motor Trade Federation themselves and they make up about 18 per cent of the industry and, of course, most of their members are the larger garages. They did not come back with a combined response, they came back with individual responses.

Deputy S.C. Luce of St. Martin :

Gordon, could I just take us back a few years? Obviously we have known about Brexit for some time now, it is well over a couple of years since the decision was taken. Can you just remind us, did you not do some previous work in consultation on this whole subject many, many years ago?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think it was visited perhaps more than once, before my time at D.V.S. I took over at D.V.S, in 2014. We really got going with it when the question was asked in January 2019 as to whether the Island wished the ratification of the Vienna Convention to be extended to it. That went through the States, as you know, and it was then that the work progressed. I have not personally been involved in any P.T.I. (Periodic Technical Inspections) work as such, apart from what we do anyway down at D.V.S. As you well know, we carry out annual inspections on commercial vehicles, which is part of the Vienna requirement, and we also started in April 2019 inspecting mopeds, light bikes and minibuses, which is also part of the requirement.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Did you ask the Island some time ago whether they wanted a central depot for this work to be undertaken? Did they not want it done by the private sector or combination of the 2?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Not that I am aware of in my time, Steve.

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Excuse me, Chair. I recall when I first came into post there was some discussion about the potential for P.T.I. type testing. There were some stories in the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) but that never went anywhere. I suspect what you are thinking about, Deputy , is as part of the development of the P.T.I. proposals for the Vienna Convention a report was written and that report included some initial discussion and consultation and it went to Scrutiny where it was viewed before going on to the States. It might well be that report where there is some detail in there. Also, if I recall correctly, you were part of the oversight advice group and there were some reports prepared for that which set out the options. But there was not the detailed kind of consultation and economic appraisal that Gordon is taking about now.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Okay, thank you.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Going back to the consultation uptake, what sort of percentage uptake have you had from it and has there been any feedback received from the motor industry generally, apart from what you suggested in terms of large versus small? What is the percentage uptake on feedback?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

There were 48 out of around 80 garages, because, as you know, there are a lot of smaller garages in the Island. Forty-eight out of them responded and, as I said, there was a diverse range of views across the industry, with no option emerging as the preferred one for the garages. But, in general, the larger garages tend to support the industry undertaking inspections and the smaller ones less so.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

You will be determining the findings during the next month or so, as I understand it. The panel is aware that there is an intention for public forums to be undertaken once the process has concluded to discuss the findings of the consultation. Have you got a date for that yet?

[11:45]

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Not yet, no. We are looking at public consultation some time in February. An important point to add as regards to garages is the word "fairness" and we have an obligation to ensure that we do not upset the dynamics of the industry in the Island and that the particularly smaller garages, or those who are not in a position to undertake inspections, are not disadvantaged.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Indeed, thank you. Andy Scate has a point to make.

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Thank you, Chair. I was just going to answer Deputy Luce 's question. I think we have signalled that this work has been coming for some time and that is probably why it is felt that the work has already been undertaken. But we have got to the stage now of doing the more detailed feasibility work. We probably signalled this 2 to 3 years ago.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Just to conclude on the vehicle testing questions, have any training opportunities been considered or provided to assist Jersey motor industries in attaining the certifications required to undertake the vehicle testing and has this encompassed training opportunities for local Jersey residents?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, I think it will. I think one of the issues that has arisen revolves around the skillset in the Island and we put out in the consultation document that we are looking for fully qualified mechanics, however that is the preference as that is the prerequisite in the U.K. (United Kingdom) and in most E.U. (European Union) countries. However, I think we have to acknowledge that there could be a lack of mechanics to carry out that standard so work has to go into determining what skills are needed and whether time-served mechanics - and there are quite a few of them in the Island - would be capable of carrying out the inspections.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Are you doing any work with Highlands College to divert the training programme to provide these mechanics as and when they are necessary?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

We have had a couple of conversations with them over the last 12 months, however we have not progressed that part of it as yet. We want to

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Are you aware that any courses are being provided at Highlands at the moment for car mechanics?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Not as such, no.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

So you would agree there is a breakdown in the link between training and the necessary provision. Would you agree that that needs to be prioritised?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I would not call it a breakdown. I think we have to determine what type of mechanic we need, what level of mechanic we need, to carry out these inspections. However, yes, we have to concentrate on the skillset but we were waiting until we had delved down deeper and got more information from the garages on that. The workshops we carried out were only last week and the week before and we are currently collating that material.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Do any panel members have any further questions on the vehicle testing regime?

Connétable S.A. Le Sueur -Rennard of St. Saviour :

Yes, please, if I may. This has been mooted for a long, long time as to how the garages were going to cope with it if it came to fruition, and we still have not encouraged any local young people to go into the maintenance, to be a mechanic. Gordon, you have just said that it takes a lot and we did not know what was needed. Nowadays you need to be able to read a computer, you plug in most cars, the children of today and the youth, male and female, are quite au fait with computers. I think the Island is let down and maybe Highlands could not cope with them, I do not know. I have a granddaughter who learnt to be a mechanic and I know quite a few girls who have learned to be a mechanic. If we had thought about it we would have thought that we need them now, because we are going to be doing this testing, we have a hell of a lot of vehicles here. In fact we have more than we possibly need. We could have had the foresight and said: "Right, let us get some youngsters on board, let us take them to Highlands, let us get them trained." When I was young you used get a spark plug and all sorts of things, the distributor, and you would do it yourself. Now you lift up a bonnet and you have to be a scientist because you have them plugged in. I think it has just been a bit of a shame not you, Gordon, because you are not in charge of it, but we could have helped and  educated  young people  and  given  them an  apprenticeship  in being a  car mechanic or maintenance. I think once again the Island has fallen down so we will be importing more English people to help us.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Gordon, how long, in your opinion, would it take a suitably qualified mechanic? Would you have that information?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: I think probably about 3 years.

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The Connétable is correct. There are lot of job opportunities that will be available as a result of this system. Where we are at the moment is still assessing the feasibility of various options around that system as to who does what and what is the infrastructure required to implement the system. The other point to stress is that there will be a difference between fully qualified mechanics versus V.I.N. (vehicle inspection number) inspectors and that is something that Gordon may wish to elaborate on if the panel feels it is helpful. To inspect a vehicle for safety is a different level of skillset to be in charge of fully maintaining the mechanical side of the vehicle. We will not need fully qualified mechanics in that sense but we certainly will need qualified inspectors who will be trained to look at safety issues and how cars and vehicles operate.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

So these fully qualified people to have a look would be from the U.K. because we do not have anybody here?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

No, I would expect, Connétable , that these will be locally qualified persons from the Island.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Where are they getting qualifications from?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

That is something that we will need to work with Highlands on in terms of the provision but also with if there are private operators here currently, some of the garages that Gordon has mentioned, there is the ability to do something with industry but also with Highlands themselves.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Long before this, as Gordon has just said, about 3 years, I have been on this panel well, I have been in the States since 2011 and I have stayed with this panel because I wanted to see it through, no point in hopping from one to the other. Three years ago, when this was mooted, we could have put something into fruition. We still have not done anything and you are still saying to us now that we are not doing anything, we are having to wait. I just find that a bit disappointing, gentlemen.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Can I just add to that, Constable, please? I think the difference is it is very difficult to be absolutely clear on this because we are not there quite yet but there are a lot of time-served mechanics in the Island, a lot of people who have been working in garages for a long time maintaining vehicles. It may be, this is a real possibility, that those people who are not fully qualified mechanics with all the qualifications that go with it, they may well be knowledgeable and experienced enough to carry out the actual inspections. The other thing I would say, we are concentrating on the garages in this discussion, however the garages carrying out the inspections is only one of the options, one of various options. However, I do acknowledge that even if it were a government-built facility where it was tendered out to a third party, there will be a need for local mechanics or equivalent to carry out the inspections.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Thank you. Thanks to Tristan for putting up the links with the Highlands' courses. Deputy Truscott, you have a question?

Deputy G.J. Truscott of St. Brelade :

Yes, thank you. It is just to develop what Andy Scate was elaborating on. Mechanics are like chefs locally, they are like hen's teeth, good ones that is, and well-trained. There is a massive shortage of well-trained mechanics locally. Just from a numbers point of view, to service this particular requirement, do we know approximately what headcount is required to carry this forward?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think it depends on the option that is chosen. If it is the garages, well it depends on the size of the garage, it depends on their capacity, the number of vehicles, et cetera. However if the option chosen were a government-built facility where it was a third party or government carrying out the testing then the calculation is 3 test lanes with up to 16 inspectors, 20 per cent of which would be to cover holidays and that sort of thing.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Could I also add that obviously we have Jersey Fleet Management at Bellozanne where we do have our own mechanic and, indeed, our own apprentices, which we are very keen on, both in engineering and in the workshops.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Minister, I am pleased to hear that and hopefully that can be developed as well. I am conscious that we need to move on. Speed limits within Parishes. Sorry, no, I have jumped ahead too far there. We are going to talk now about the contentious hospital site at Overdale. Minister, concerning your remit, could you please update us regarding any work being undertaken in relation to the preferred hospital site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

This is being led by the hospital group and obviously we are consultees in this. Do you want to take this, Andy?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Thank you, Minister, yes, I can add where the I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) has inputted and provided advice to date. As the Minister has outlined, the proposal has been put forward and worked on by the hospital project team with the development partner that has been chosen as part of that process. In that regard they are acting as the applicant and developer and, in our side of the equation, we are acting as highway authority and planning authority, providing that pre-application and pre-design advice to enable the developer and the applicant to carry on their designs and thinking. At this point, yes, we have inputted our expertise, both from planning and highway matters, we have highlighted issues that the applicant needs to take into account, whether that be ecology, whether it be visual impact, whether it be more recently highways capacity and highways issues that the developer needs to assess. So at this point in time we have, from our regulatory side of our business and with our highways authority hats on, been giving that advice and we would then expect to be involved formally when the application is submitted.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Have you had any preliminary drawings yet with regard to the access road?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I cannot comment on behalf of the I would ask Mr. Dodd or Mr. Hayward to comment but certainly we have been inputting in terms of what we would expect to see in terms of carriageway widths and what requirement we would expect to see for cyclists and pedestrians. So we have been able to provide the standard carriageway widths that we would expect the developer to be planning for, that we would expect to see on a road of this nature, accommodating the variety of vehicles that it would need to accommodate.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Andy, from a regulatory point of view I expect you are fully expecting to receive a planning application for this access road?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

We have had signalling now that there will be a planning application for the access and the main building of the main proposed hospital together, but, yes, the access proposals do need planning permission in their own right, along with obviously the building itself as well as any other associated structures. The demolition will also need a planning consent because of the way the law is written. There needs to be a demolition consent, there needs to be a planning consent for the road and new buildings.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If I could just follow on from that. It is a little bit concerning to hear that you say that the application for the access road will be submitted at the same time as the building itself. Does that mean then that the access road work will not be able to start until they finish the full plans and had them approved for the actual hospital?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

That is correct, yes. We are expecting the planning application boundary to effectively include all of the associated access structures, buildings, required as part of the hospital application.

[12:00]

So we have been informed that it will now come in as one application. So the red line, so to speak, will be a quite extensive red line, it will include all of the land at the Overdale area that is required for the buildings but also will have to include the access and highways improvements as well. Until that has been given consent through the public inquiry process, the access proposals cannot be implemented.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

That does seem to make a lot of sense. One would not want to spend tens of millions of pounds on an access road to a hospital that could not get planning consent, but at the same time it is slightly concerning that we have to wait for the whole project to be approved at the same time. If you are going to build the hospital at Overdale ideally, I am sure, you would like to build the access road before so that once you get the green light you can start actually getting construction equipment up there and start to deal with it. But I will leave it there for now, thank you.

Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier :

I would like Rob Hayward to add to that because I know that Andy Scate indicated that you would give more insight and then I will follow with my question after Rob's answer, please?

Senior Transport Planner:

Okay, so we have been involved in meeting the hospital team as they have been progressing the project, so feeding in all of the local advice the department has in terms of the highways input and the public transport input. We met with the hospital panel Scrutiny representatives yesterday to take them through the various involvements we have had in terms of the information the hospital team has shared with us so far. Talked through some of the key issues relating to the project and how we would be assessing the application as and when the submission is made to us later this year.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I would like to pick up on the point that the Future Hospital team has been in contact. They presented it as a consultation. Was it a consultation? They asked the question, they received your response and it stopped or was it some ongoing interaction with response and answers between you and the Future Hospital team? Have you received any feedback and has anything been amended according to your insights or inputs from your department?

Senior Transport Planner:

So prior to them lodging the site access appraisal as part of proposition 167, they did come to us and ran through the 71 potential options for accessing the hospital. So they sought our feedback on that and they also sought feedback on the public transport as well. So we have input into that process. That is really where we see the start of the journey in terms of talking through the highway solutions for the new hospital. There are a lot of discussions that still need to be bottomed out around sustainable modes of access, around access to public transport, around parking management, travel planning, et cetera, but we would expect those to be fleshed out in the fullness of time as a planning application is brought forward.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Have you seen any change, any adaptation or amendments in the presented 71 routes following your feedback or has it remained the same?

Senior Transport Planner:

It is at quite a high level at the moment. I would say that there is more detail that needs to follow. In terms of the 71 routes they presented to us, they did sort of take us through their reasoning and scoring system as to why they were ruling out the options that were not selected and then taking us through why the option had been selected. We broadly agreed with the methodology that they had used to reach their conclusions. Although there is a lot more detail that will need to follow around the exact design of the route and, like I said, the mitigation measures that were not listed within the proposition for sustainable transport. That would be like your parking management strategy, the travel plan for the site and for people walking and cycling up to the hospital. I think that only really addresses the highway access within that.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

So the sustainable transport like walking, cycling and others were not addressed in that particular proposition?

Senior Transport Planner:

I would say the detail is still to come. We have been talking to the team and they expect as they know more, as the site is designed up and they have more of an understanding as to the exact use and where the configuration is of the site, then we will get that detail through at a later date.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Thank you.

Connétable J.E Le Maistre of Grouville :

If the application for the access road is now going to be delayed and be part of the hospital planning application, will that not delay the project? If so, by how much? It was envisaged that the access road planning application would go in ahead of the hospital application and therefore the road could be put in place so that when the building works commenced there would be decent access for all the building traffic. How is that going to work now? Has it delayed the project overall?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I think that at the moment the hospital planning team are still saying that the overall timeline of the project has not changed, although parts of the project timelining detail has changed. For instance, they had expected 2 planning applications, one for the road, one for the main buildings, they are now expecting it all to come in together. At the moment, Connétable , they are basically saying that they are expecting the 2026 deadline still to be there at the end of the project. That is the current latest position from the project team itself. We will need to see there are obviously a number of intricacies into where we are now versus where have got to go. There is still lots of work to be done. There is obviously a States debate to get through and there are some detailed designs that still need to be worked on. We will expect to respond to those in due course and we would expect the project team to be working up all of that design detail once they have surveyed the land and have taken on board where we got after the States debate.

The Connétable of Grouville :

It was expected that the access road would be built before the actual building work started. Clearly that is not going to be the case as the planning application will not be there, so there has to be a delay, surely?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Certainly I would expect the project team to now be assessing how various vehicles could be brought to the site to undertake various bits of work, certainly the demolition has to take place first. Once we are clear what the access route is, we are then clear what the design needs to be, we are then clear what that construction would entail effectively and how long that would take to get construction vehicles there. I think there are a number of answers that we are still expecting to see the detail on but globally we are still being told that 2026 is the end point still. If it helps, there were some questions about what detail does get submitted at this point or later. Certainly the planning application itself would need to come in with a full transport assessment, as Rob Hayward has outlined. That would be expected to look at some practical things, such as highway design and the standards that we would expect that physical highway to meet, but it would also be expected to deal with other issues such as how do servicing requirements, emergency requirements take place but also how do patients, visitors and staff travel to and from the site. Certainly we are expecting that work to accompany the planning application because it will give far more detail and colour as to how the hospital will work.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I had the pleasure yesterday of actually walking up Westmount with the Friends of the Hospital and I found it very informative. I do urge anybody that has not done it to do it because you pick up on so many of the potential issues that you probably had not figured in, you know. Drainage - and this I know is your department - is a significant problem in the area. You can tell that by the amount of pipes that lead off from various bits of the hillside. Has that been addressed or considered at this stage or is that something that you are going to be doing in the fullness of time? Only insomuch as there are 2 large fields that plainly at the moment absorb a lot of the rainwater but as soon as you hard surface you are going to have a lot more voluminous water to contend with. What consideration has been given to drainage in the area?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

So I think that is a very good point. I do think that the detailed construction plans will have to deal with drainage, both foul and surface water drainage, and indeed the highway itself will need to be drained appropriately in terms of the structure that is being proposed. I do not think that work has been done yet but it will have to be done in terms of when the building is finally designed as to what we are going to see there and then what those drainage runs will need to look like. Yes, so surface water and foul water will need to be handled.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Andy, could I just take you back a few years to the last hospital application, which was, in comparison to this one, much simpler, more straightforward and easy to build out but it still took a huge amount of resource within the Planning Department when it came to adjudicating on that application. Can you give us some sort of assurance that you are going to have the staff to be able to do this given the fact that you have obviously suffered a lot with staff having to go off to COVID duties in other parts of the States. Could you just give us a couple of minutes on resources?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Of course, yes. You are right, Deputy , the Department for Planning is generally resourced to deal with the general churn of planning applications that we see on a regular basis. So 1,400, 1,500 applications a year. When something of this size comes in it does take one or 2 people out of the department full-time for the life of that application. The sheer amount of paperwork that comes in with it plus the process does demand their full attention for the duration. We will be expecting to allocate a dedicated officer again for this application. It may well be one more senior and one more junior officer but certainly it comes in with a planning fee, so we would be looking to offset some of that cost with the planning fee to make sure we have a dedicated planning officer for this.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Maybe one for the Minister. In your view, Minister, what consequential effects might the development of the Future Hospital have on the surrounding properties during the development stage of the project?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That has been carefully looked at by the hospital project team. Unfortunately there will be a few houses that will need to be purchased on the Westmount Road but I believe that agreements have been made, obviously I cannot go into details. But things appear to be moving along quite swiftly in that respect. But for now it is going to be planning application.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Leading on from that, regarding the primary access route to the Future Hospital, what consideration has been given to the potential impact of the route on the surrounding residential properties? Additionally, in relation to congestion and traffic concerns, how might any issues in that regard be addressed?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It was always my desire from the outset that the new hospital be as close to town as possible to minimise the amount of traffic that will be on the roads. Obviously this is the primary route that it is going in and, as the officers have just said, there is more work to be done regarding obviously personal vehicles, cycling, pedestrians, et cetera, but that has all been taken into account. I have not seen the fine detail on that yet but I hear that is all in train.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Are you cognisant of the effects, the long-term impacts and effects, that might have to be experienced by surrounding residential properties and whether these effects have been highlighted to date and what considerations have been given to addressing these?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, the development team have looked into that and they are doing their very best to minimise any disruption or inconvenience regarding the demolition and construction of the new hospital. There will obviously be some disruption but I have been assured that will be kept to a minimum.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

My question is to the Minister. The department unit was really helpful, I would like to know what engagement you have with the Future Hospital team and if it is on a constant basis that you are updated and you can raise your concerns? What engagement have you, as the Minister, had with the residents because, as we know, it will be a huge impact on the residents of the area?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have the exact details. The project team

[12:15]

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Minister, sorry, the question was what is your personal engagement? Do you have meetings, did you have meetings, do you plan meetings - you as the Minister - to assess the situation around the hospital yourself? To take the walk, for example.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have walked the route but, as I say, I do not have any direct involvement because we are consultees as Infrastructure, but we do not have direct involvement with the general public on this. The hospital project team are handling that.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay, and do you have any concerns and, if yes, have you raised them with the Future Hospital team or with your political allies?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, we obviously are very cognisant it will be a major, major project, possibly the biggest project that Jersey has ever seen, so there will be some disruption. I have impressed upon the project team to minimise that as much as possible. There will be controls when demolition is put in place as to when and where the vehicles can run but, as I say, we just need to keep the disruption to a minimum.

Deputy I. Gardiner : Okay, thank you.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

If I could just go back to Andy and the application, which we now learn is going to include the access road and the hospital all in one go. Andy, that will have to be determined in one go then. Can we assume that the independent planning inspector will also deal with the issue of access? Could you outline maybe a bit more about the public inquiry that will have to be done?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Certainly, Deputy . To start off I think we need to refer back to my statement previously. The red line for the scheme will include the access to highways as well as the buildings themselves. The planning application that has to be submitted will need to be accompanied by an environmental impact assessment and transport assessment as part of that. There will be an expectation for issues such as ecology, landscape impact, visual impact to be assessed, wider sustainability issues to be assessed and, frankly, all of the issues that then accompany how the building will work in practice. I think it will be quite instructive to look at the previous decisions here made and recommendations from previous inspectors, certainly around community impact. Certainly the chair has raised that. The hospital number 2 planning application did go into community impact as well and there were some statements and recommendations made on that. Effectively all of the detailed questions that you would expect to be asked by the planning authority, highways authority, States Members and the community will need to be in that planning submission and the planning inquiry therefore will debate that in the full round and will expect a number of submissions. Last time around we referred back to the second inquiry we had for the second planning application, that involved all of our regulatory authorities but it also had to involve some of the statutory undertakers, such as water and electricity; their views are obviously important in terms of how the building and facilities are serviced. But also it included quite a large section and session for the community as a whole as to they could get involved, provide their comments, provide evidence and get their opinions. So, yes, I think that we are having a mini debate here today about some of those issues but certainly the planning inquiry will need to take into account all of that information and, as a result, the planning inspector will need to look at access, how it practically works and that planning inspector will need to be assured that the relevant standards are being met and it is appropriate for our highways network.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think I had probably better address this question to the Minister. Could it be suggested, Minister, that this whole process will be a complete sham because the decision has already been made to build the hospital at Overdale and nothing that the planning inspector will contribute would make a blind bit of difference? Would you agree?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously the planning inspector had made certain decisions on the existing hospital site. Nothing is taken for granted, as far as I am concerned. Everything must be in order for the project to progress. Nothing is taken for granted.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Would you agree that it is unlikely that the project will - shall we say - have a shovel in the ground prior to the 2026 elections I think we are looking at?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I will imagine the project would be started well before that. As I say, I take nothing for granted and Members are obviously free to make any inquiries, any objections or any amendments they so wish. I take nothing for granted.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Finally in this subject, I just want to question you, Minister, whether the department had any input on the transport implications for 2 other sites, particularly Warwick Farm and St. Saviour's Hospital. Did the department have input in the decisions to refuse those sites?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would not say to refuse the sites but the department were consultees on road access, I believe. Can you clarify that, Andy?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so the process that was gone through to shortlist quite a large number of sites down to the 5 and then ultimately down to 2 did have a matrix of things for the team to assess against. It was the project team and the process via the citizens' panel and then the panel who was put together to advise on those. Certainly the spatial distribution is important to think about, for instance, at St Saviour, it is clearly on the east of the Island and, as a result, does have some significant transport implications for those living in the far west of the Island. There were some practical issues up front to think about where is the best location that serves the majority of the population. That was certainly to the fore of that spatial decision. Some of the issues that St Saviour has also is related to the highway network as you get into town, so into the Five Oaks area and therefore down into town in that direction. That is quite heavily constrained. Similar could be said of Warwick Farm. Warwick Farm is more distant from the built area and therefore it does then create traffic pressures in both directions for both staff getting to the facility as well as obviously patients and visitors. They were some of the issues that were dealt with in assessing whether a town location was better versus something which was further outside of town.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I was always very conscious of that fact, Chair. The fact that at present obviously the General Hospital is located within town. A huge amount of people that work at the hospital live in town, a lot of the patients who visit the hospital live in town, people who visit, a high proportion, live in town so I was conscious of the fact that if we move out of town that people would have to use their vehicles, taxis or public transport to get there and that would increase the volumes on the road no end. I am not sure of the exact number but several hundred people work at the General Hospital in various capacities from cleaners, nurses, doctors, radiographers and so on. It is a huge number of people that change shift in the morning and as a St. Saviour Deputy I was very concerned about the 2 sites that were proposed in St. Saviour. Obviously it is my Parish and it was not a case of being N.I.M.B.Y. (not in my back yard) but the fact that Five Oaks roundabout is a choke point and we cannot retrofit many of our roads. We have had a lot of trouble up there with congestion. We have 11 schools in and around the Parish of St. Saviour so if the school run happened to coincide with the changing shifts, et cetera, then it would be absolute chaos, which is why I was very keen that the hospital be in or as close to town as possible.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

So you regard Overdale as being in town?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Out of all the sites that were proposed I  would have liked to have seen the existing site redeveloped but that particular avenue was closed off during a States debate so this is the next closest, as far as I am concerned. The perfect site does not exist as far as I am concerned, Chair, but this is the next best thing.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

The Minister has just answered the question I was going to ask which was: given all the problems of access that he has just spent a lot of time outlining, surely the Gloucester Street site is the best site to build a hospital? We already have one there, people are already used to getting to it, it does not cause us traffic problems and it is obvious to me that that is where we should be redeveloping our new hospital. I will leave it there, thank you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I could not agree with the Deputy more but it was a proposition by Deputy Labey of St. Helier saying that the hospital must not be redeveloped and that was passed by the States Assembly. The next available site would have been People's Park. We know the story regarding People's Park. The next one along would have been Overdale. But, as I say, there is no perfect site but we have to work with what we have.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Just a quickie because I am intrigued as to having Overdale in St. Helier - I am not being unkind - because you have to be a mountain goat to get to it. There is just no easy access and if you do not want to have vehicles on the road, having the hospital up a hill where it is is just ridiculous. I find it very, very sad because Overdale is wonderful. The views and everything but, as I say, you have to be a mountain goat. Old people are not going to be able to walk up there. Even youngsters will find it very difficult to walk up and so if they had gone to Warwick Farm we would not have had to demolish people's homes, the site was already there and I, like a lot of Islanders, think that would have been a much better thing because I do not class Overdale as being in St. Helier because you have to be a mountain goat to get there.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would agree it is up a hill. I have walked it. It is not easy. We are planning obviously there will be things put in place, the bus services will be going up there regularly, there will be a bus put on, I imagine, when the hospital is opened. Warwick Farm was obviously looked at and there were significant problems with Warwick Farm. It is a very uneven site going down to the valleys below, plus it is even further out of town. Anything that people cannot get to easily they will have to get in a car or on public transport and go out to Warwick Farm.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

They are going to have to do that for Overdale, Minister.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

They will but it is a shorter hop. Obviously it is up a hill, I would have loved to have seen some kind of rocks railway or travelator going up there but this is the only way we could do it in the time allocated and we are looking to the future.

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Minister, we must move on. Last question, please, on this subject from Deputy Truscott.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

I do believe it is a 12-metre width that you require going up Westmount - I think Tristan will probably confirm that - that would incorporate a pavement and cycle path. The cycle path, is that something that is sacrosanct or is it something that it is a nice thing to have to save impact on the environment in an area that could perhaps not be provided?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are trying to provide cycling facilities wherever possible. As I say, it is not easy because most of the cycle lanes that we put in are retrofit to the roads we already have. It is very difficult to build new roads so everything is a retrofit. Would you like to take that, Tristan?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

I think Rob is probably better placed to answer that. He is closer to the detail.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Closer to the tarmac, okay, Rob.

Senior Transport Planner:

Ultimately it is for the hospital team to put forward an application with the facilities that they deem to be deliverable within their top programme and budget. As the highway authority we would seek to try and get the best facilities we possibly could out of the development in terms of the sustainable transport access. For that we would want to see segregated cycling and walking lanes, as well as access for public transport and road access up to the site. There is technical guidance that we use to inform the decision-making around the width that we would ask them, but again we have to be mindful as to what is technically achievable within the space that they have to deliver. So we will push for as much as we can in terms of sustainable transport access and it will be for the planning process to identify whether that is adequate in terms of meeting the sustainable transport policies the States have.

[12:30]

The Connétable of St Brelade:

Andy, do you have a final comment on this?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, just a final point to also just reference that the proposal is going to be there for some time ahead. One of the views the authority needs to take is what does sustainable transport look like now but are we trying to future proof that access moving forward? As technology changes certainly we would expect cycling to change as well and we have seen that trend in, for instance, electric bikes currently. The ones we have today are far better than the ones we had 5 years ago. So moving forward I think we also have to have some form of crystal ball looking ahead as to what transport movements and behaviours could be and trying to build that in at this stage.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Could you tell us when your parking, walking, cycling and bus strategies will be brought to the States for debate?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so as part of the sustainable transport discussions and now the carbon neutral discussions, certainly it is part of the S.T.P. (Sustainable Transport Policy) debate which the team here are heavily involved with. Modal shift is a key part of that in terms of getting people out of carbon-based transport and their cars into better forms of transport but also a lower form of carbon transport. So we would still expect cars to be used but we are seeing fuel change for cars, we are seeing it become less carbon, lower emissions and potentially more electric. The debate around the wider transport solutions for the Island is going to be part of the S.T.P.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is not an excuse but obviously we have been hit by COVID and a lot of the officers have had to handle other projects COVID-related. We are trying to get back on track as soon as we can. We are very keen to progress the S.T.P., get more and more people on to bikes wherever we can, we have approved cargo bikes so there will be more deliveries in town with the cargo section on the front of the bike. We are encouraging more people to use a bike. We also think every bike on the road usually means one car less. It is progressing as fast as we can. We have cycle lanes in the pipeline but there has obviously been a logjam because COVID and the team are working frantically to get things moving again.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you, Minister. Going off the hospital subject at the moment to speed limits within Parishes. Could you outline, Minister, the process followed for making changes to speed limits on lanes or road within Parishes and the roles the Parishes might have in that regard.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly. I did have a letter recently from the Comité des Connétable s regarding this. Tristan, would you like to take this?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Yes, during my tenureship in the role of the head of transport we have been through various iterations of looking at speed limits and the Island has generally, in the past, taken quite an ad hoc approach to how the speed limits have been developed. There has been different attempts at different times to create an Island-wide speed limit policy. In 2015 a process started whereby there was an engagement with all of the Parishes, the 13 Island police forces - that is the 12 Parishes plus the States Police - the Minister for Home Affairs and the Minister for Infrastructure. That culminated in a report which was lodged with the States at the end of 2016, which was the road safety action plan. In there they set out an agreed approach to speed limits that the Island would follow. There was a table in there which was subsequently there was some technical guidance provided to all of the Parishes about how that table should be applied and how a speed limit review should take place. That is basically that the Parish bring forward proposals within that overarching policy and then consult with neighbouring Parishes on those proposals so you do not have a road arbitrary change in speed limit just because it crosses a Parish boundary. Then the process was that that would go to a Parish Assembly to get a democratic signoff by the parishioners and then be proposed to the Minister, who - as long as it was then compliant with the Island-wide policy, because the Minister is guardian of that - would then take it forward to law officers and implementation. That is the process which all the Parishes to date have followed.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

What would be the department's view on the approach followed and the weight attributed to the input provided by the Parish's Road Committee and parishioners views for informing these decisions regarding speed limit changes?

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Just to go back a little bit before I answer the main part of the question. Obviously drivers' behaviours are not just informed by signage, they are informed by the environment they are driving in so they would expect the same speed limit for a similar environment across the Island. The way the process has worked is that we have worked with each Roads Committee individually to help them develop their proposals and to look at where signage can be placed. We have done that collaboratively and then we have also helped support the Parishes in preparing documentation for consultation and for taking it forward to the States Assembly. It has been a very collaborative approach. I would say compared to all of the other approaches previously taken this is the first time we have had something that has worked across the Island and that all the Parishes have approached it in the same manner. A large number of the Parishes now have their speed limits in.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I know a lot of Constables get very frustrated with the time it takes to process these road regulations from speed limits and onwards. But there is a process that has to be gone through that we are obliged to follow, and especially with the Law Officers' Department who have to research everything before it is put forward. It does help if we put through batches at a time. It does help the law officers, who have obviously got other work, so we try and focus as much time as we can with them.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There has been a bit of frustration regarding the application of the proposals for lanes surrounding Parish schools and it seems as though the department has not followed through with Roads Committee suggestions. Why is it that Parish-led agreements regarding the speed limit changes around schools particularly are not supported by the department? Surely that has to be the utmost priority.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a priority for us. I am very keen on the safer routes to schools schemes and several have been implemented in recent times. I am not sure if much by way of schools is outstanding, perhaps officers can help me on that.

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

Yes. In a written question that the Minister has responded to for the next States meeting, we have listed all of the work we have done around schools, which is extensive; there is still more to do. In terms of the speed limits around schools, I think you are referring to, the issue is really around the actual speed limits. We have a policy that at schools there can be 20-mile an hour zones and we are supportive of that. However, where the character of that road is in fact a green lane, rather than a main road, then within the speed limit policy that would fall to that lower speed limit. I think in the instance you are talking about we were not engaged in the development of those proposals and the agreed process was not followed or the technical guidance that was sent out to the Parishes was not followed. It was basically outside the policy remit.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

Just observing what they do in Guernsey, and they do things very often different to what we do here, and there they have got an overall speed limit of 35 miles an hour, a unified one, with a 25 while you approach the larger areas such as Saint Peter Port. We in Jersey have a multitude of different speed zones. We have got a proliferation of signage on our roads. Is there not an argument to say, well, let us just simplify things and perhaps adopt the Guernsey approach? I would appreciate your comments on that, please.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do like simplicity but I cannot see us raising the speed limits outside of schools or on smaller roads to 25 miles an hour. But I think Guernsey have always done their own thing, including driving on the pavements. I am not sure if Rob or Tristan can help with that.

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

I think that culture and speed limits have evolved differently in different jurisdictions. Jersey started with an overall Island speed limit of 40 miles an hour and then basically has been demands from the public, who felt intimidated or felt it was unsafe or there has been the evidence that it has caused road traffic accidents with injury. We have ended up with 40, 30 and 20; I believe that is appropriate. Then we have the very special case, which has recently been highlighted by another proposition to the States, which is the green lanes, which are 15 miles an hour. That speed limit has been revisited in the past and discussed with the Comité des Connétable s and, on balance, the Comité des Connétable s decided that the 15 miles an hour was the right speed for those roads, which are Parish roads.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We do have 2 Parishes that do not have green lanes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Indeed. The Connétable of Grouville has a question. Are you there, John?

The Connétable of Grouville :

Yes, the question earlier really reflects what has happened in Trinity . They had a Parish Assembly, the Roads Committee proposed that the roads around Trinity School should be 20 miles an hour and the department have refused to sanction that. The reason given is because they consider they should be green lane. Surely making them 20 miles an hour will make those roads safer. It is quite clear that the Honorary Police in Trinity are happy with the idea of policing them. With regards to safer routes to school it is really something that should happen. Green lanes do not really work because I think most people simply ignore that speed limit and I think the Honorary Police are reluctant to take people to court because they are doing 24 miles an hour in a 15-mile an hour lane, whereas a 20-mile an hour lane is a much better speed limit that can be more easily policed or more sensibly policed. Why on earth have the Parish of Trinity been frustrated when they all agree that these lanes should be 20 miles an hour? I think it is a political decision. The States of Jersey decided that we should try and have roads that were more cycle friendly and pedestrian friendly. What it needs is some direction from the Minister to make sure these things happen. We have got a Parish that is totally behind reducing speed limit. I think those roads are currently 40 miles an hour, which is nuts. I am interested in why the Minister does not make sure these things happen.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously we are going through all 12 Parishes one by one and checking on all the speed limits. But I am guided by the officers who research the roads, whether there is another plan in place or not.

The Connétable of Grouville :

The plan is for them to be 20 miles an hour, which is going to make them safer. Admittedly it does not take them to a green lane but it makes them safer. It is very simple, just instruct the law officers, it will take time. But what I understand is that is not the opinion of the department or you, as Minister. You do not want these roads to be reduced, it seems. I do not know, I just do not understand it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I have just said, I am very keen on safer routes to school and having all roads safe, especially around schools. Tristan, do you have the

Head of Transport and Infrastructure:

The situation is that 13 police forces and 13 Parishes and the Minister for Home Affairs supported and charged the Minister to review the Island's speed limit in accordance with a policy which they agreed with, which was lodged with the States. If the Comité des Connétable s and those police forces think it is inappropriate to amend that policy, then so be it; that is democracy. However, as officers we are charged to come in as to whether they comply with the policy that was agreed by all the Parishes and which all the other Parishes have followed. Also, I would just emphasise that drivers would anticipate behaving in the same way on the same streets. The speed limit for the whole Island is 40 miles an hour; that is not a target for motorists. Motorists have to drive at speeds that are appropriate to the condition and on these narrow country lanes it certainly is not 40 miles an hour, it is a lower speed, probably closer to 20 or 15 miles an hour. The Island has a marketing campaign and also in terms of its marketing itself abroad, in terms of Visit Jersey, which also tells people we have these green lanes and this is an important part of visiting Jersey where there is not a great deal of traffic.

[12:45]

At its very most basic we have been charged to say whether the proposals comply with this policy or not and then to support that there was also this technical guidance which was provided to each Parish, which explained the process which would be gone through and in terms of how they should engage with the Minister and the department.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am going to just ask the Connétable of St. Saviour to ask a question.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

Yes, it is just a quick one. We do not have green lanes in St. Saviour but while I have been in office, along with Ms. Vallois, we did do an awful lot in the beginning to make safe routes to school. I am now on another safe route to school at Bagatelle and we have been a little bit disappointed because on all my speed limits I have been in touch with the person and we have been online, we have filled in every document we possibly could, now we have to have a Parish Assembly, which is almost impossible because of what is happening. We have had details where we have met everybody. We have got a Roads Committee who know the Parish, who knows what is needed, who knows what is required. When we put out a thing a little while ago for speed limits somebody wanted it to 50. This is ridiculous, 40 and you come through Five Oaks and it is supposed to be 30 and it is not 20. I would like it to have been 20. We are trying but it is the States road. What I do not understand is why, when it comes to one of our Parish and the Roads Committee go through it all, then they know everything and they then apply to have the speed limits altered one way or the other, it is kind of knocked down. We have this we know better than you attitude and so this is what we are going to have. As I say, I have all the schools in this Parish and I have nailed it down. I have got one more before I leave and one more road that I want to make safe for roads to school. My Roads Committee have worked very hard with me to do this and we have had open evenings, we have let all the public know exactly what we were going to do. Yet when we get to the department it is: "No, we cannot do that, you are going to have to build a fire." I just think it is a disappointment when the Parishes and the Roads Committee in each Parish know their Parish where they are stamped on by people who do not live in the Parish or, in our case, the Minister lives in the Parish. He knows what is required, so why he cannot just say: "Okay, I will help you with it." We get absolutely nothing and I am really disappointed and frustrated.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is not quite that simple, Constable, because I

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, can I just interject? We are getting a bit shy on time. Can I request that you review this policy?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Just to put it in point. I have been up to St. Saviour and gone through the plans with the Constable of St. Saviour regarding Bon Air Lane, which was great and obviously we helped out with Bagatelle Lane, both excellent projects. But there is a procedure to go through, which has been agreed with all 12 Parishes. If you want to tear up that agreement that is something different

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Would you not agree that the procedure does not seem to be working and it seems to be loading just a red-tape programme, which we need to address? From a governmental point of view the whole process does need reviewing, it clearly is not working as we would wish.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is not as fast as we would wish but it is working. Obviously we would like it to operate much faster than it is. But, as I say, everything has to be researched. We have to go through the Law Officers' Department; they are very stretched. We have booked time with them.

The Connétable of St. Saviour : It is not working.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Then we need more law officers to help out with that but we cannot simply change the law.

The Connétable of St. Saviour :

We need common sense. We need common sense and we need to listen to the people who live in the area and who know their Parish. The Roads Committees know their Parishes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If I could do it in 5 minutes I would do but there is a procedure that has to be gone through. I have to obey the law, so do the officers, and this is the way it has to be done. If you want to bring a proposition for something else, then that is out of my hands. But this is what I am charged to do, this is the procedure I must abide by.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I think we need to move and we will be following that up, Minister. I am going to move to your office strategy and office accommodation projects, report 4 of this year. What policy work has been undertaken regarding the office strategy and can you update us on its progress, please?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Is Andy still online?

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Tim Daniels here, Minister, if that helps. As you may be aware, Chair, the office strategy was first kicked off, I think it was in 2001 and it was a piece of work back then that was considered as necessary to revitalise and modernise the office estate. It was required to mitigate some health and safety concerns that existed. It was also something that was required in order to bring about some sort of public sector reform. I think the office strategy itself had a number of fits and starts, basically to do with the funding and approval. I think the most recent example that we are now seeing come to fruition was started in 2018 when Cyril Le Marquand House was vacated and the temporary accommodation at Broad Street was brought into existence. We are in the process of seeing that policy, that strategy, come to fruition.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Minister, you lodged the R4 report on 8th January to extend the lease on the Broad Street office for 25 years. However, on 14th January the Standing Order 168 was withdrawn by Government. Could you explain, please, the rationale for presenting the R4 report in the first place?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Have you got that, Andy or Tim?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

I can answer that in brief terms. Work was ongoing in terms of their longer-term solution for the Government offices due to various commercial issues that M.D. (Ministerial Decision) had to be withdrawn to allow further conversations and discussions to take place.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We do not have the basis for the decision really with Property Holdings recommendation to extend the lease for the existing Broad Street office. It was not made clear in the report, it is just what we are trying to understand.

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

The M.D. for the Standing Order was for a new property on Broad Street, not an extension to the current lease. It was the M.D. for that new building on Broad Street, which was then subject to the further commercial considerations, which then had to prompt the withdrawal of the M.D. or another M.D. to make that previous decision null and void.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Chair. Minister, you will be aware I emailed you a few times on this subject. I seem to be the first States Member that picks on it. But can I ask you a question that I emailed you some time ago and I did not get a response to, which is this office strategy. The potential lease on this site, is all subject to a final business plan which nobody seems to have seen? Could you tell us: has the business plan been finalised and, if so, has it been approved by the Council of Ministers?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, apologies if you did not get a response.

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

There is a wider business case as to why we and Government need new offices and that is basically outlining the fact that we are in multiple premises at the moment with multiple costs in various places. The overarching decision then is to move into one building, which is far more efficient in terms of operations but also the potential savings that may accrue. There is certainly a business case associated with the project which would have to be publicly available as we go through this process for the decision.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Just to follow up on that then, Andy. So the final business case, has it been approved?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, there is a business case approved which then allows the property decisions, effectively, then to be implemented by the Minister for Infrastructure here and I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) as a department.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Could you organise for the panel to be in sight of that, please, because I do not know where I would go to find it?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Certainly. If I can take that out offline outside the meeting we can see what is available to share with the panel as part of this process.

The Deputy of St. Martin : Thank you very much.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Is it the common practice now that reports such as R4 would not be provided to Scrutiny prior to it being lodged? What is the protocol now with that sort of report?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Standing Order 168 would normally be lodged as an R, which would then allow the 14 days to commence. Depending on what is commercially available or commercially sensitive would be then accompanying that proposition. I could probably ask Tim in a bit more detail as to what formed the basis of the original report and what could be shared and what could not be shared.

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

I think at the stage that it was released there was a lot of commercial information that was concerning the office project and the preferred development and the commercial information on there was sensitive and still is sensitive, so that is why it did not form much of the report.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Minister, I have in front of me the office strategy accommodation summary from 2010. As you indicated, it is almost 20 years on the table. Do you accept that the sign for 25 lease at Broad Street without presenting at least on a confidential basis to the Scrutiny Panel business case it is a step too far?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Okay. Yes, so

Deputy I. Gardiner :

We committed the Island for millions without Scrutiny even being notified that the business case has been approved.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Okay. Have you got the detail there, Andy?

Deputy I. Gardiner :

I would like to ask the Minister to answer this question because it is a political decision and it was a political move and I would like to understand the position of the Minister why he did not come to the panel and present it at least on a confidential basis to the panel before committing to the millions.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Obviously there are various clauses in it but I would like to defer it to Andy because what can and cannot be submitted. But I am all for anything that is not commercially confidential or things that are confidential in certain aspects is released to the panel but I am not sure about this case

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Minister, why did you not think to bring it to the panel? I would like the Minister's answer on this one.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes, okay.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

It is a political decision that has been made.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. Can you help me out on that one? Yes, just a second, yes. Have you got the timing on that, Andy?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, so what we will do is just assess what can be shared with the panel at this stage and what cannot be shared with the panel at this stage. I agree, if we can give a private briefing on various matters then that would be sensible for us to proceed. Going back to the point around the office strategy being some years old, I think we have certainly had for many years aspirations to undertake an office strategy and that was certainly in the offing when I first joined the organisation back in 2008 and certainly I have seen office strategies in 2010 and thereafter. I think what I can say at this point, we are probably at the closest point to delivering an office strategy than we have been in recent years.

[13:00]

Again, there are commercial conversations that are going on outside at the moment with the project team. We hope to be in a situation where we can take a positive proposal forward for Government which starts to reduce our office floor space and the costs that is associated with it.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Would the Minister commit to engage with Scrutiny prior new lodging of this or that land transaction connected to the office strategy?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I said, if something can be put to Scrutiny I am in favour. I have done 6 years in my political career with Scrutiny, so if something can be given to Scrutiny I would like it to be given to Scrutiny. But obviously things are at a very delicate stage at the moment regarding commercial confidentiality but I would like to

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Okay, Minister, I will make my question clear. Would you commit to engage with Scrutiny prior to lodging 31 to 41 Broad Street and 19 to 29 Commercial Street again, that we will have a sight before it will be lodged?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I have said, I will give Scrutiny everything I can that is not commercially confidential at the moment. But obviously when things have progressed further I would obviously like to include Scrutiny in that. Things are at an extremely delicate situation at the moment and I would not want to jeopardise that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, just to close this one off, can I ask that officers collude with regard to developing a protocol in the light of this question so that we all know where we are going and what we should receive?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Absolutely, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Developing a little bit further into estate management and the strategy, what policy work has been undertaken regarding the estate management strategy and can you update us on its progress?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Okay. Tim, are you there?

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

The estate strategy is in the process of being lodged as a report with the Assembly, so it will be available for comment consumption shortly. You may recall, Chair, that we briefed to you, I think it was early part of last year, the set-up of the early findings of that strategy and it has certainly been touched on a number of times by the panel and the document itself has been circulated in its draft form. With a few minor amendments mostly to the style and the production of the document, as I say, it will be lodged as a report.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. I hope this will cover the multi-users States-owned buildings which are not being used and have been languishing some for many years. Do you expect the report to answer the direction in which that may be taken?

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

It is a strategy, so it establishes the high-level process and protocols for using, redeveloping, refurbishing or disposing, if that is appropriate, of the various premises, buildings and sort of groupings of buildings and other bits of the estate.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given that Jersey has a deficit in housing, would perhaps you, as Minister, consider that much of these properties could be used for housing, for affordable housing particularly?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is not too much by way of properties that we have at the moment, obviously we do have some small pieces of estate. Basically anything that is not being used by education and such like is handed to the department. But obviously we have got things up and coming; there is the Rouge Bouillon sites, which are still under discussion. But any sites that are not needed by any of the States Departments I think should be used for housing, absolutely. Regarding the office strategy, I think obviously we are in the public arena at the moment but we could possibly give you private briefings.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. You mentioned, Minister, the I see there is a question from Deputy Luce first before I move on.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask the Minister, when he says he does not have many buildings, I am presuming of course then that he is not including Health buildings under that statement. If that is the case, would he agree that when we relocate the hospital there will be a large number of Health buildings which will be available for housing?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, indeed. But, as I say, I think the Deputy has hit the nail on the head, that there are quite a few buildings that come under the remit of Health, for instance, the Le Seelleur Trust, which we looked after on behalf of Health, so they were disposed of but the money went to the Health Department. We were just assisting colleagues in that respect. But, as I say, any of the larger buildings that are not being used or derelict or whatever, then I would not have a problem with those going to housing.

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

If I may, Minister, if you will excuse me, Andium have got a business plan to deliver 2,000 new homes by 2025 and clearly we work hand in glove with Andium to provide sites and to deliver development opportunities to them. There is also a plan for development of the waterfront by S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company), although those are not specifically affordable social housing. There is an intention to try and find a more affordable model that will allow contribution to the housing stock of the Island. I think it is also worth making the point that while we clearly acknowledge the requirement for housing and, as I say, we are working with Andium to provide it, there are also requirements for across all the departments. There is an education review that is in the process of starting that will determine the need for rationalising schools providing education perhaps in a slightly different way; that is both an opportunity and a challenge to the department to find spaces to rationalise some of the collections going to the schools but also to make sure that the sites that are thrown up by the education review and any educational reforms are delivered to the strategic benefit to the Island as a whole.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think there seems to be a bit of an urban myth that does goes round that Property Holdings have got a huge portfolio of properties just doing nothing, which is not really the case. In fact we do not really want to hold stock of buildings because they are expensive to maintain if they are not being used. As I say, a lot of the buildings we had we held on behalf of Health and Health have been slowly disposing of them, mostly to other bodies that are health-related, ironically enough. But most of the things that we have, we have schools, old forts, et cetera, so not really appropriate. We do not have a housing stock or even a land bank that we could use. As soon as one States Department ceases to use a particular building and there is no intention of using it in the future, it is handed over to Property Holdings.

The Deputy of St. Martin :

Can I butt in and just ask the Minister why he has not done anything with Cyril Le Marquand House? That has been empty for quite a while now.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Not really because it has been in use until recent times. Because there was a huge amount of telecoms equipment there and it was used as a base for telecoms on one of the floors and a lot of equipment. It is vacant now but that has recently been completely vacated. But that is something obviously we do have on our books.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do we expect to see mention of Cyril Le Marquand House's future in the upcoming report, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, there will be a use for that site, yes.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

You alluded to the Rouge Bouillon site earlier, Minister. What further consideration or work has been undertaken regarding the best use for this site and when could we expect to receive any conclusion as to what it will be used for?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We do have a problem as much as the sea cadets needed urgent accommodation. Property Holdings helped out with the old police station as was and the cadets will now be housed in there for the time being but that is only a short-term arrangement. There are rumours that the ambulance station may be relocated, so that sort of plan is in development.

Deputy G.J. Truscott:

The Minister and I have been exchanging a fair bit with regard Les Quennevais School and its future and now he did kind of admit to the fact that it was going to be repurposed in the short term, and we all know now what that is for. Just for the record, I do think what is proposed for Les Quennevais is a sensible way forward and I think it will make a great alternative to Overdale. But in the meantime, Minister, can you assure me and the panel that work will continue after the 4 or 5 years and we will have an idea what the school can be purposed for, particularly affordable housing, over 50 homes, et cetera? Will we have an idea at the end of 4 or 5 years what the intention will be for that site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, that has not really been under discussion yet. I wish I was 5 or 6 years down the road in that respect. The Parish obviously will be involved in those discussions nearer the time. But, as I say, it will be put to very good use, the building will be repurposed. I believe at the moment even the old school is being used to house some of the equipment for the new school, so it is not 100 per cent vacated as yet, I believe. But that should be happening within the next week or so. But, as I say, when it is repurposed it will be a wonderful facility for the people of St. Brelade and not having to go into town for the time being. But, as the Deputy quite rightly points out, this is a short-term development until the new hospital is built, 5, maybe 5½ years.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, would you be able to confirm whether there will be any work needed to the access road to the temporary hospital?

The Minister for Infrastructure: To the old Quennevais School?

The Connétable of St. Brelade : Indeed.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not too sure on that but obviously the team are very well aware of the situation.

Just going back to Rouge Bouillon, when will a preferred option for the site be established?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not sure how far we are along with that. Obviously there have been several ideas come forward regarding extension to the school, et cetera. But obviously we have to bear in mind that the fire brigade are still there - Jersey Fire Service are doing an excellent job - so obviously we could not put anything next to it like a school. It would not really be appropriate to have 10 tonnes of Dennis fire engine rushing through the playground, so obviously we have to wait until we see what is happening there or for any future use of that particular site.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Given the site could be described as being derelict at the moment, has any provision been made for demolition?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Not at the present time, I believe.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

There is no timescale being applied to that site at this point, am I understanding

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have the information. Obviously the old police station section would be repurposed for the cadets but the old school section further down, it is not in a good state of repair. Obviously it is waterproof but it is not in a good state of repair. I do not have any information on that at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We have a completely derelict site in regard to the old Rouge Bouillon School. We have no idea what is happening to it, no plans or anything; that seems to be a rather unsatisfactory

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, things are fluid at the moment, until we know what is happening over the road with the ambulance station, with the fire brigade, things are dovetailed together there, so that is a project in progress. Do you have any further info on that, Andy or Tim?

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Certainly I can add just an overall and then Tim can add some detail, if required. We are currently going through a process of assessing the future for the ambulance and fire station as to what that

facility needs to be in the future and where, therefore, it needs to go. Once that work has been completed it will then form obviously the real estate implications for that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Are there any suggestions where it might go, any options at this stage?

[13:15]

Director of Property, Jersey Property Holdings:

Yes, the project is being dealt with by the Home Affairs Department and they carried out a very wide- ranging look at potential sites from La Collette to Warwick Farm to Bellozanne; they are working though the options at the moment.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Thank you. Minister, moving on to the taxi industry, you informed the panel that your officers were busy progressing the final stages of the taxi service reform programme with a view that a single-tier system would be in place by March 2021. Could you outline what this programme entails and what the anticipated outcome of the programme would be?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly. We have Gordon back with us, do you want to take that, Gordon?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, Minister, thank you. We have been progressing it, Chair, but obviously the COVID situation has slowed it right down. The intention was to get all vehicles same colour plate, one-tier system by the end of March this year. It will be slightly delayed because of COVID, we will carry on progressing it but that is still the intention, nothing has changed from the original remit.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you have an idea of that timeline? We appreciate there will be a delay, a couple of months.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I think we have to put certain legalities into place, so, therefore, it is more likely to be another 12 months before it is finalised completely and this is to do with renewal of badges and licences.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Do you anticipate that going to a States debate?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: I would not have thought so, no.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

All right, thank you. Regarding popular services, such as Uber, the Minister informed the panel that the outcome of his correspondence with a representative of Uber was that their business model did not fit with Jersey's current requirements. Are you able to advise what the requirements the service is incumbent upon and why their business model did not fit Jersey's requirements?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not sure that it was a representative of Uber but, Gordon, would you take that, please?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Yes, a gentleman approached us last year and we explained the regulatory framework that would have to be fitted into that exists in the Island. That is really the requirement, the D.V.S. checks for all drivers, the P.S.V. (public service vehicle) driving test, a comprehensive Island knowledge and vehicle licensing. We outlined everything that is required. We had a fairly positive meeting and then we did not hear from the gentleman again. We assumed either that the regulation was too tight for them or perhaps the Island was too small.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Really do you believe that services such as these are worth pursuing for Jersey, given that the Jersey Taxi Association now has its own app, which is not dissimilar in what is being provided by these companies?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards: Shall I answer that, Minister?

The Minister for Infrastructure: If you would, please, Gordon.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

Chair, I do not think it is a question of pursuing them, I think it is a question of being open to any application that may come in. If it fits within the current regulatory framework, then it will be considered and would be accepted, given a reasonable business plan.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Leading from that, could provisions be made so that services such as Jersey Lifts could operation within the law under a management structure and guidance?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I find that very, very scary, Chair. I will hand over to Gordon in a second. It is the very thought of the completely I can only regulate, as Minister, what is legal. I cannot regulate what is illegal; that is a police matter. But I find it very scary that people can set this up and they can give people lifts in exchange for money, which is illegal. If 2 friends want to give each other petrol money, that is one thing but if someone is running a business, we do not know who these people are, they have not gone through D.B.S. (disclosure and barring service) checks, they are not insured as a taxi cab, they have not had background checks, they could be on drink, they could be on drugs, they could be a sexual offender, we just do not know. I certainly would not want any member of my family entering a vehicle belonging to one of these people and if, heaven forbid, there would be a serious road traffic collision, it would immediately invalidate the insurance if it came to light, which it would, that they were carrying for hire or reward. It just fills me with dread that these people are out there. Of course they can do it cheaper because they do not have to pay for insurances, they do not pay tax, they do not have any background checks, so I will leave the rant there and hand it over to you, Gordon.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I am just going to ask Andy, he has got a comment to make.

Acting Director General, Infrastructure, Housing and Environment:

Yes, thank you, Chair. Yes, I think it goes back down to the comment made around whether such services would come to Jersey and whether they would develop here. Our focus within I.H.E. within our regulation service, effectively, is to look at the safety of vehicles, the appropriateness of drivers and to make sure that the service is safe and appropriate for Islanders. There are, as Gordon has outlined, some very clear regulatory rules that need to be followed around those fundamental principles. If any service wants to live within those principles, which are very common to other jurisdictions as well, and meet our standards that is great. We would then expect them to develop their customer side of their business, so whether that is an app-based business or whatever technology they want to use, really it is for the service provider to do that. Many of these services do respond then to consumer pressure and consumer desire. We need to be clear from our side of the equation that vehicles are appropriate, vehicles are safe and drivers are appropriate, so that Islanders are protected. If that then does allow a more digital delivery of those services that is absolutely great. I think, undoubtedly, that is where we are seeing the trend moving but it will be down to those taxi services themselves to develop that.

Thank you. Has Gordon got anything to say on this?

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

I have got nothing further to add. I was going to emphasise the safety side of it but Andy has done that very well.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Sorry, I forgot to add the public service vehicle licence, which they would also need. But if anybody who does Jersey Lifts wants to make it legal, then obviously they can take their P.S.V. test, they can go for background checks, they could submit a decent vehicle for inspection and go through all the correct procedures that obviously Gordon runs down at D.V.S and then applying for a taxi cab badge if it is perfectly legal then, and have a meter fitted of course and just follow that line.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Minister, the panel is aware that this is an area of ongoing discussion and it is the panel's understanding that to advance the current position input would be required from both yourself and the Minister for Home Affairs. Firstly, would the panel be correct in its view that co-operation between the 2 departments would be necessary?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have mentioned this problem to the Minister for Home Affairs but, as I say, I am only empowered to regulate what is legal, I cannot regulate what is illegal in fact, so I

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

I suppose what the question leads to is exactly what work, if any, has been undertaken jointly regarding pursuing services, probably it is suggested possibly Uber but a more regulated form of Jersey Lifts for Jersey? Do you think there is scope to make such services work within Jersey's law and management structure through joint working with the Minister for Home Affairs?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, I cannot legitimise something that is illegal. If the people want to be legal, then they have to go through the same procedures as the taxi and cab drivers do, that is the law and there is no easy way around that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

We would not disagree with that, Minister, but it seems as though that the Minister for Home Affairs, through the police, does not seem to be taking any action when the onus is within his remit. What

we are asking is: what work you are doing with the Minister for Home Affairs to ensure that your regulations are adhered to?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As I say, there is no working with as such, I have spoken to the Minister for Home Affairs and I think he did tell me that he has spoken to the chief officer regarding this. But, as I say, it is out of my hands from a regulatory point of view. It is a police matter.

Head of Driver and Vehicle Standards:

If I can add to that, Chair, D.V.S. have excellent relations with the police. We work very closely with them in lots of D.V.S.-related matters. I have had several conversations in the past 12 to 18 months with my counterparts in the police and there is a clear division between what falls within the regulation and what is illegal. One way forward, which I personally and I am sure the Minister would not adhere to, would be a loosening of the regulation. Because the P.S.V. taxi scene, if you want, is open to any Jersey Lifts driver to join, as long as they comply with the regulation. I cannot see how the division could be less wide, could be narrower without loosening the legislation and that is something, as head of D.V.S., I would not endorse.

Deputy I. Gardiner :

Thank you, Gordon, for addressing the communication between the department and thank you for the Minister. What I would like to bring to the attention and try to find a solution, we all understand that regulations are important. We all understand it is important to live and to abide by the law. We have taxi drivers who are unhappy for 7 or 8 years because their business and their livelihoods were taken by Jersey Lifts. We have parents who are unhappy because it might compromise the safety of their children but nothing that they can do. We can continue to close the eyes in this and do not do anything or we can start to think out of the box and put the departments together as OneGov; we have OneGov. If it is regulations, how we can bring the Jersey Lifts in or maybe we need to create a  law that  will  forbid advertising on the  Facebook,  WhatsApp  and others because they  are advertising which but something needs to be done. We cannot continue to point 2 departments to each other saying nothing that we can do because the problem is here and everybody is aware about this problem. Would the Minister think that the engagement with the other Minister and to try to find some solution to incorporate what is more than lifts, cabs, taxi industry is bringing to us because it has changed over the years?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not know where I can go with this that I have not just stated, which Gordon and Andy have backed up; it has changed quite a lot. The taxi cab service have indeed changed quite a bit. They have their own app now that people can use and I believe there are maybe 15,000 - maybe more -

last year were using the app for Jersey Taxi Drivers Association. Perhaps Gordon can correct me on that one. But, as I say, I do not know where I can go that I have not gone with this. Gordon, the head of D.V.S., has spoken to his counterparts and I have spoken to my counterparts. It is a bit like asking the finance industry to sort of legalise bank robbers; it is illegal. I cannot go anywhere with this.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

It seems to me, Minister, if I may, that consultation or conversations need to be had with Home Affairs so that miscreants can be prosecuted and I think this is what is not happening

The Minister for Infrastructure: We have done that.

The Connétable of St. Brelade :

Could I suggest, Minister, that you work with the Jersey Taxi Association so that their app can be well-publicised and well-enhanced so that the general public, who we are here to serve, have the opportunity to use a taxi service which is operating in line with current-day requirements. But of course, as you quite correctly say, in a legal manner. Minister, we have run our time. I thank you and your team for your presence today in answering our questions. I do not think we have got too many to follow up but if we have any further questions we will of course follow them up in writing. I do thank you for your attendance and I close the meeting.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Excellent, thank you, Chair. Thank you.

[13:30]