Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Public Hearing

Witness: Minister for Infrastructure

Thursday, 12th September 2024

Panel:

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair) Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair)

Deputy A.F. Curtis of St. Clement

Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary

Witnesses:

Connétable A.N. Jehan of St. John , the Minister for Infrastructure Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier , Assistant Minister for Infrastructure Mr. A. Scate, Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment

Ms. E. Littlechild, Group Director, Operations and Transport

Mr. T. Dodd, Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure Mr. T. Daniels, Director, Jersey Property Holdings

[10:34]

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair):

Welcome to the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. Today is Thursday, 12th September 2024. This is a public hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure and it is part of our quarterly hearing cycle. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live, and the recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. Please ensure that electronic devices are switched to silent. That is a 1

good example right there. Those members of the public who have joined us, thank you for coming. Please do not interfere with the proceedings and as soon as the hearing is closed please leave quietly. To commence, I would like everybody to begin with introductions and please state your name as clearly as possible and also use the microphones as clearly as possible. I would like to start. My name is Deputy Hilary Jeune and I am the Chair of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy T.A. Coles of St. Helier South (Vice-Chair): Deputy Tom Coles , Vice-Chair.

Deputy A.F. Curtis of St. Clement : Deputy Alex Curtis .

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary :

David Johnson , Constable of St. Mary , panel member.

Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South : David Warr , St. Helier South .

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Andy Jehan , Constable of St. John , Minister for Infrastructure.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

Tim Daniels, Director of Property Holdings.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Simon Crowcroft , Constable of St. Helier and Assistant Minister for Infrastructure.

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

Andy Scate, the Chief Officer for Infrastructure and Environment.

Ms. E. Littlechild, Group Director, Operations and Transport: Ellen Littlechild, the Group Director for Operations and Transport.

Associate Director, Transport, Highway and Infrastructure:

Tristen Dodd, Associate Director of Transport, Highways and Infrastructure.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much. We have a 2-hour meeting scheduled today and I will try to keep to that schedule. We have got a lot of questions and anything that we do not get through today we will follow up to you later with a letter.

Associate Minister for Infrastructure:

Sorry, just in advance, I need to leave at about 11.55 a.m., so I will not be here for the last half an hour.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Okay, thank you, Connétable . Minister, first of all I would like to start with the Budget that we are scrutinising at the moment. Thank you very much for your letter that outlined very clearly the different projects that you have put forward. Overall there has been a cut in funding for the estates capital programme between the 2024 Government Plan and this year's Budget. In the 2024 plan, the proposed funding for 2025 was £48 million and in the proposed Budget now for the same year it is envisaged to spend £28 million. Do you believe that you have got sufficient funding to carry out all the priorities you identified at the start of your term of office?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think what we have to do is be sensible about what we can deliver and I think the previous Government had started to do this in being sensible in terms of what they could deliver. We have often seen Government Plans with £150 million worth of capital expenditure and the reality is we are able to deliver around half of that, £75 million, £85 million. We have taken a hard look at what we can deliver in the time we have got with the Budget we have got. A number of the programmes will not be ready for us to commence during 2025, so it is pointless, in my opinion, to put down that we are going to start building something if we do not own the land, for example, or we have not got planning permission. That does not mean to say that we will not be doing feasibility studies on these areas, so a lot of work will continue in some of the priority projects but we are physically not able to start those. I think later on we might talk about I.S.E. (Island Structural Engineering) and that is helping us to shape our vision and what we can actually deliver.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. The Common Strategic Policy approved in May states that the Government will deliver a plan to revitalise town and this policy also references improvements to the central market and the fish market. Please can you tell the panel what funding has been made available for this and where it can be found in the Budget? For example, page 55 of the Budget indicates that there is no capital project funding that has been allocated over the period of the Budget to the market revitalisation project.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

A lot of work has been done on a major overhaul or regeneration of the markets. That has been done in association with Economic Development and there has been talked about a major scheme that would cost £11 million, for example, to completely improve the market. Since being given a responsibility for the central market, I have been meeting with the market manager and with market tenants and I am very much of the view that we need to adopt an evolutionary approach to improving the market rather than a revolutionary one. I do not believe we need to spend millions of pounds to improve what is already regarded as the jewel in the crown of St. Helier . The kind of improvements we have been talking about will not require millions of pounds or even thousands of pounds to deliver. The market income that is raised from the rental paid by tenants is ringfenced and so it is unusual, I think, in States financing. We know how much money is going to come in from the market tenants and that enables the market manager and the team to budget for it. So I think there are going to be some significant but low cost, practical improvements in how the market operates in the coming months.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Can I just jump in there? Can you give us some concrete examples, Assistant Minister?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, certainly. There are numerous ones. I am not quite sure where to start. Some of the ideas that came out of the consultation included things like opening the market on a Thursday afternoon. That is already happening. The market is now open 6 days a week. Evening openings for restaurants in the market is now happening on 2 days a week, Fridays and Saturdays. As well as the 2 restaurants that started, we have other players who now want to open on a Friday or Saturday evening. We have been talking to Economic Development officers about artistics, having an artist in residence, for example, in the market, having a regular music happening, all kinds of these improvements. More radically, we are looking to see whether we can bring back a post office presence in the market, which was always a very important part of going to the market. Anything that will drive footfall into the market and get it busier I think is something we are going to pursue.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Just to confirm, in the Budget it says there are improvements to the central market and fish market but there is no budget attached because those improvements do not include anything that is related to physical structure of the market itself or changes.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

There is some work. You will see at the moment the large scaffolding that has been erected around the market and that is to create what is called a man-safe - it should be called person-safe really - system that will allow people to get on to the roof safely and clean it. That has not been there before and it has prevented important maintenance being done to the roof since Storm Ciaran. So that is happening at the moment. That money is in the Budget and next year's Budget will include finances to maintain the market and keep it looking its best.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That was my next question. In the letter the Minister wrote to us, it did say market roof safety system and some development. There is funds then somewhere within the Budget for 2025 that is not specifically under market revitalisation project for the roof safety. What does "some development" mean? Is that related just to the roof then?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. I think we want to improve the lighting, which will show off the fantastic roof that is in the market. There are a number of other things we are looking at doing to make ... again, these are low-cost things. That is why they do not appear in the Budget.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You said you were having conversations with the tenants. Are they aware then that there is not going to be major changes to the market? Does that mean that they have more secure tenure with their market places?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

We have not yet agreed the new leases with the tenants. That is something that is on our agenda and in fact I hope we will be making a decision next week about it. The current one-year leases expire in December. They have been on one-year leases for several years. It is not satisfactory either for the Government or for the tenants, who are looking for security of tenure.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That is good to hear. Thank you very much, Connétable . The panel will be interested in your view on how the halving of the public realm budget will impact on the revitalisation of town as a whole and supporting cycling and walking as a priority, which you have alluded to in past hearings that we have had.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have had to make some tough decisions and some tough calls but I do think there are some quick wins. In fact, only last week the Constable of St. Helier and I walked around St. Helier , along with officers of the department, where we identified what we believe to be some quick wins, including additional blue badge parking, better cycle parking, motorcycle parking. We looked at junctions and

crossings. So we think that we can deliver some things more quickly but we have to make decisions, unfortunately. I am sure if I was given the choice of doing La Motte Street when La Motte Street was done, I would have said no because we had our customer service department right there and we have impacted upon that. I would have waited until we opened our new customer service department, but what is done is done. I think it is worth remembering, we will be investing £89 million in 2025 in the Island's infrastructure, so that is £7.5 million a month or £1.7 million a week, so it is not insignificant. That is a 10 per cent increase on the net expenditure from 2024 to 2025. In 2024 we spent £57 million and in 2025 we are forecast to spend £62 million. There is significant investment in infrastructure that goes on that we do not see. We had people out until 2.30 a.m. on Sunday, while we were all tucked up in bed, making sure that homes were safe. Last Tuesday I went to the abattoir to see the team there and there are lots of things that we do. I know you have been to the cavern and you have been to the sewage treatment works and we would like to show you more of what we do as a department.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Absolutely and I completely understand. I think for us we are just trying to get into the relationship with the common strategic priorities that Government has set and then the reality of this Budget, which specifically is an area that we are questioning because of the C.S.P. (Common Strategic Policy) that the ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

One of the key aims of the C.S.P. is to limit the impact on the public of any price rises. Clearly that has impacts on what you can actually do. If you do not bring the money, you cannot spend it. I think, having just been through the cost of living challenges, it is really important that we do limit our increase as much as possible while we try to recover from that period of time.

[10:45]

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

In that regard then, we see in the letter that you sent us a number of public realms cancelled, including La Collette Gardens regeneration. We are just wondering what work had already been done on that project, for example. How far had it got along before being cancelled?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think there will be some work carried out at La Collette Gardens. The plan was to spend millions of pounds up there. I do think we can do some work up there and it is about what can we do. I think we can make some improvements just by maintaining things in a better way, which would come under business as usual rather than capital investment. The shoreline management plan is going to have between £70 million and £100 million spent at Havre des Pas and the idea of that is to progress that around to the gardens and make a thoroughfare through and it is about making choices. We want people to be able to enjoy that area and access that area.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just a quick one on La Collette. Is this an opportunity here to pass this over to the parish of St. Helier ? In other words, to take the pressure off the infrastructure budget and put it into it ... I do not know whether you have had a conversation with the Connétable about this.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think there are a number of areas around the Island, not just La Collette Gardens, that could be  transferred  to  parishes  and  something  that  we  need  to  do  is  to  rationalise  what  do  the Government look after and what do parishes look after. Quite often in parishes parishioners think that it is the parish that is not looking after something. I think there is a number of areas, not just at La Collette Gardens, which is an example, and the parish do some work for us there already, but I think there is a number of areas. What we do not want to do is ad hoc, so we are trying to find a way of coming up with a strategy that says are parishes interested in sites A, B and C and whether that is a change of ownership or it is a licence, those discussions are still to take place.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, Minister. Something that has been raised in the States Assembly in the past is the public realm project being led by Deputy Tom Binet . Have you seen any terms of reference for this? Is this related to what has been halved in the public realm budget?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have got a town taskforce, I think is the term, which will report to the Regeneration Steering Group and we will be working with the Deputy Chief Minister and that taskforce. I would hope to think that we can do more within St. Helier . For this Budget we have had to make some tough calls, as I said earlier. We cannot continue to do what has happened historically. As I said, I think the previous Government made a start of being realistic. We have to be realistic about what we can deliver.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. Minister, in your letter it underlines the fact hat a number of construction projects, including 3 school projects and the ambulance fire and rescue headquarters, have been delayed to 2026 or not happening or very unlikely during this Government term. How is this prioritisation determined in line with the Government's Common Strategic Policy for these specific points?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is like a jigsaw. The key element in that area is for us to get ownership of the land at Gas Place so we can build a town primary school. The plan then is to relocate the pupils from Rouge Bouillon School while we refurbish that area and the emergency services area there. Then we would look to bring back the children from that catchment area to Rouge Bouillon and then move the children from 2 other town schools into a new purpose built school. There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes in terms of planning, feasibility, et cetera. I think we have to be realistic. We are not going to be able to do that this year, in the next 12 months.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is it planned for the money to be put in to buy that land, which as you said is the start of the jigsaw piece, before the end of the Government term Budget?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

In terms of a negotiation point, I do not think we should putting a number in the Budget because I dare say the people we negotiate with will want that and more. So I would like to think we can negotiate and then come back with the money.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is the idea then to negotiate this year to then be able to say start that jigsaw for next year?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would say in the next 12 months. I am not sure if it is going to happen before the end of this calendar year.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Can I just ask about the fire and ambulance, because obviously that has been an ongoing issue for at least a decade? Do you think the fire and ambulance is still going to be fit for purpose given all the delays and the lack of investment in that area?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As far as I am aware, we will have to spend some money on it but we cannot have people operating in facilities that are not practical. Can we improve? Of course we can improve but it is about the priorities and I think the Minister for Home Affairs, the Minister for Education and myself are aligned on what we want to achieve.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you and, of course, the panel will request more information on each of these delayed projects and the money and the resources after this as well. For instance, in your letter it was mentioned that the Mont â l'Alabbé secondary school project is delayed until 2026. Could you explain, Minister, what stage were the plans, et cetera, up to before this delayed project? How developed was it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have acquired the land that is needed for that project and in fact we have agreed to let a farmer use that land for the coming 12 months. The work continues. There is a feasibility study, so I think it would be wrong to put down that we are going to start the work in 2025 if we physically cannot start the work in 2025. The work on the project will continue in terms of the feasibility studies. You can say that these things have stopped. Well, they have not stopped; the work continues. It is about being realistic as to when we can physically start work and also when we can physically finish work.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Of course, and it is how it was written in the letter. In that sense, it is why we are questioning how that looks because, yes, we were led to believe also the land purchased, the plans were ready to go and so, therefore, what is ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If I could write this letter today then it would be a more considered response. Unfortunately, with annual holidays, et cetera, the time that I had to spend on the letter was not enough. With reflection, my wording around Fort Regent would have been better, for example, but we tried to meet the timelines to respond. I think we were a couple of days late perhaps but that is the challenge we had with the summer recess.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

It is interesting just on that because it feels ... and you are saying that the work is still going on these different projects. It is just a case of it is not the spade in the ground. For example, in 2024, £1 million had been put aside for Mont â l'Alabbé secondary school. What has been spent of that £1 million? What has happened? That does not seem to be just for a feasibility study. I feel that £1 million is the start of developing.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have been absolutely shocked by the amount of money we spend on professional fees and planning fees. Do you want to come in on Mont â l'Alabbé?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

I am not sure there is much to add, Minister. Throughout the life of a project at every stage we need to confirm the requirements and details. Often the departments that are looking to confirm those requirements do not have the resources within themselves to be able to do the work that delivers that output. So at every stage there is a requirement for additional resources to detail the number of classrooms, the scope, scale and for each of those sort of requirements there is then a requirement for mechanical and electrical engineering, for structural designs.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So that £1 million would go to all this, which has been done this year I suppose?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

I think some of that £1 million was spent on purchasing the land as well.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

This is a similar question, I guess, for Le Squez youth centre extension and refurbishment. Again, there was £3.5 million allocated for 2024. What has happened? How far has that gone through? I was led to believe it would be a phased approach, for example, and therefore to stop it in its momentum, I am assuming there must have been plans to ... we are just trying to work out how the priorities are when they seem so far have been moved quite far ahead.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) are the customer and so we work with them. As I said, it is tough decisions but if we look at the north of town we have to have a provision for the existing families and all of the new families that we plan to bring into St. Helier . So I think we have made the right decision. We have got a facility at Le Squez. Just like the emergency services, we will have to make sure that it is maintained but the priority is around getting a new facility and we are also working, as I have mentioned in the Assembly, on getting access to the school estate out of hours. It seems totally wrong to me that we have got a gate between a lot of housing and the FB Fields and people have to go around the road and come back in again. Simple things like that; we can give people access to somewhere they can go and kick a ball.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Of course Le Squez is attached to Samarès. We are just trying to work out what has happened this year to that £3.5 million, the works that have gone on this year, because I believe it is now going to be delayed until 2028. What work has ...

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

That is an operational decision that has been taken by C.Y.P.E.S. We are the delivery agency, so it is not something that we will have decided off our own bat unilaterally and, again, C.Y.P.E.S. will have considered how they can manage their requirement, how they can provide the facilities that they are expected to, at the same time delayed what is coming down the track. I do not have the specific details but it is something that has been looked at at a level and in the context of the whole Budget and the whole estate rather than the specific items.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

My question is probably the same as the Chair's, which is where do we then, in Scrutiny or the Assembly, see this money going and how do we see that work has been done, especially given the commitments of the Government to follow the 2024 Government Plan made at the beginning of this new Government's term? We expect money has been spent and it should be quite clear, I would hope, to the estates and Jersey Property Holdings where it is spent and the impact of changing tack, whoever directs it, whether it be C.Y.P.E.S., J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings) or any part of the Government.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is a reasonable question and we will have to come back to you with the detail.

Deputy A.F. Curtis : Okay, thank you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

We will follow up on that. The letter also said about Highlands College being delayed and, Minister, you have already mentioned why but we are just wondering about the impact that that particular upgrade on Highlands College is going to have on the teaching and training provision. I understand you are saying, of course, this is a relationship with C.Y.P.E.S. and it is something that we can then talk with our Scrutiny colleagues about the question, but from the infrastructure itself at the moment and what is there now, having this delay, what impact do we see it will have on the teaching and training provision with the building itself and not being able to ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

On page 2 of the letter it talks about Highlands repairs. Again, we are committed. We had an issue at Highlands at the weekend with the storm and so the team will have been there at the weekend and this week, assessing the damage and putting in place a repair programme. Where we are not able to do something, we have still got to make sure that the buildings are safe for staff, pupils, visitors, so that work will continue.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

This then goes into Victoria College. The feasibility work has been cancelled as per your letter. What impacts do you believe the cancellation will have on the safety of students and the facilities?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I recently walked around the campus with the headteacher and I think the chair of the governors. The school is aged in parts. I think there are improvement opportunities at the school. There was some concern about subsidence but we have been reassured that that is not a problem.

[11:00]

With that reassurance, I think we are able to delay that work. Again, it is C.Y.P.E.S. is our customer, so it is not Property Holdings and Infrastructure making these decisions. We liaise with our client.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I understand that. I suppose that is the last question: could you explain the fields development and playing space project, which has been rescoped and cancelled? We would be interested to understand what rescoped and cancelled means related to that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I will have to turn to my right, I am sorry.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

C.Y.P.E.S. have had an aspiration to provide 3G pitches for all of the schools and there had been a schedule proposed based on capital funds availability. That has changed. There is still an aspiration to provide those playing fields but it has been moved right and small sums will be allocated in each year, but the overall outcome will be the same.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are getting preplanning advice on a facility for First Tower School. I am not sure where we are with that preplanning advice but I did ask for an update on that last week and was assured that was happening.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Thank you, Minister.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I just want to talk about the schools. I am trying to get my head around you have got C.Y.P.E.S.; you are the customer of C.Y.P.E.S. you are talking about here. So, basically, if C.Y.P.E.S. does not have the money then Infrastructure do not do the work. Is that how it works? That is what I am trying to understand.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is an interesting relationship because C.Y.P.E.S. receives money for maintenance, we receive money for maintenance, and we are in the process of agreeing service level agreements with the headteachers and Property Holdings so everybody knows who is responsible for what. That is certainly not the case. Only last week I walked around a school with members of Property Holdings and pointed out how poor the condition of the building was in. Some of that was at low level height, which potentially could be done by the resident caretaker. Other works are at height, which I would not expect a caretaker to carry out. So this service level agreement will make it very clear once and for all as to who is responsible for what and so we do not end up with everybody pointing at each other. We end up with schools and other government buildings that are better maintained and the funds need to follow where the repairs are going to be done by. I am hoping we are going to see ... I am confident we will see improvements in that area in the coming 12 months.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

But this includes a memorandum of understanding between Property Holdings and the C.Y.P.E.S. facilities team?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The idea is that the Government own the buildings, C.Y.P.E.S is the tenants, Property Holdings is the landlord, but at the moment there is a lot of grey areas as to who is responsible for what. What we are trying to do is clarify that and make it very clear as to who is responsible for what elements of the maintenance of each property. A lot of work has been done between the departments. There has been some dialogue with headteachers and we are just ... it does not make sense for us to have 30 contracts for gutter maintenance, for example. It makes much more sense to centralise that and say: what is the best deal we can get? Those are the kind of thoughts and processes we are going through, putting that in writing so that ultimately the school estate is better maintained than it currently is and that benefits the Island and the people who use the buildings.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Minister, could you provide, as a panel, a bit more detail about the Fort Regent project, which has recently been suggested to be progressed with the States of Jersey Development Company? What was the brief provided by Government to S.o.J.D.C. (States of Jersey Development Company) for the development?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work has started there. Again, I think the previous Government had been doing some work in that arena. I think again we need to be realistic. A previous Government were looking at plans there which were £240 million. We are not looking at that kind of money. We are looking at around the £80 million, £90 million. We are currently scoping that out. We have got to ensure that the building is safe. It is an historical building of great importance. It is one of the best examples in Europe of a fort. We are working with them. There is going to be a lot of stakeholder consultation required and so I am hopeful that we can come up with plans in the not too distant future to get consultation on. I think it has got to be affordable for people to use. I do not subscribe to the casino model. I think it has got to be affordable for locals and visitors alike and we have got to look forward but equally learn from what we had there in the past where we had something for all age groups. I think that is the aspiration at the moment.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Regarding how this will work, do you think that the States of Jersey Development Company has sufficient internal expertise to deliver this project? Can they do this without using external consultants?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not know the answer to that question. I received a letter only in the last 10 days from an architect asking for local architects to be involved. I would hope that that would be the case. I think there is enough work been done in the past in terms of scoping and we do not need to reinvent what has already been done. We need to look at what has been done in the past and try to take the best bits, but again we have to make sure that whatever we put there is viable and that we can maintain what we have got there. It is pointless us building something that we cannot maintain. We have to be realistic and I am fairly confident we can find solutions.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

I do know in the last annual report and accounts that S.o.J.D.C. had 17 employees, of which 5 are part time, so I just wanted to understand more about the context as to the capacity. They have got a lot of capital programmes going on, a lot of development work they will be contracting for. What assessment was given that they had more capacity than, especially if using external consultants, running this out of Government as it is a Government site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We see the States of Jersey Development Company as one of our arm's-length organisations that has got expertise. We feel that for us to progress this we need support and it seemed appropriate to talk to them about giving us that support. I can ask that question when we meet them - I think it is in the next couple of weeks - about their resources.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

I think that would be useful. Regarding that model, you mentioned previous models. What direction are you considering providing on free community access at the fort?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I was asked a similar question in the Assembly this week and I would like to think that we can get people up there so they can use the gardens, et cetera, use the skatepark, which is part of the aspirations, but it is too early for me to make a formal commitment. We aspire to get it accessible but I do not want to tie people's hands. It has got to be affordable, whether that is free or a small cost.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Do you not think that the people of Jersey would find it totally unacceptable if they had to pay for access to the external area of the fort?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, I personally do not want that to happen but what I want to do is to make sure that what we put there is sustainable. That discussion has not taken place. We have asked for schemes and ideas as to how we can make it viable, so we are in the early days of that and I am sure that will be part of the consultation and I am sure we can all imagine what the feedback will be. The public, I imagine, will be like me and want free access.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Another quickfire on the fort: is it the intention that Fort Regent remains in public ownership for the continued use of the whole community?

The Minister for Infrastructure: I believe that is the case, yes.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

On the same topic, what consideration are you giving to using the States of Jersey Development Company for supporting other pieces of regeneration for the Government on other public-owned land for public benefit?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The States of Jersey Development Company has done a lot of work at the waterfront, continue to have ideas and suggestions and thoughts on the waterfront. The recent plans were turned down but they are working hard on that area. It has just taken on the South Hill project. I think it is about us trying to work with our Government-owned bodies to try and leverage that expertise that we have available to us rather than duplication.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Lastly on that, obviously the current model means that a project run from Government can be scrutinised, can be amended by States Members, can be directed and obviously can be scrutinised directly to the Minister and their officers. Where do you see, as a Minister, the ability to either act as ... if you are going to take that direction of this partnership with A.L.O.s (arm's-length organisations) further, where do you see that conduit to ensure that the States has as much direction as it has in previous years or do you think it does not need that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are not looking to outsource responsibility. We are looking to outsource capability. Where we have got people and organisations that are experts in their fields, we should leverage that and sweat those resources.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

If it is considered that our A.L.O.s, being such small organisations, do not have that capacity inhouse, will you revert back to looking at procuring that directly as Government rather than using them as a conduit?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think we have to look at all the options. We have worked closely with the S.o.J.D.C. on the western bus gateway and I think they have added a lot to that discussion, so I think we have got to try to work with the resource that is available to us.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Could I just add that in my time in the States we have had buildings sitting empty, like the former J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) was empty possibly 15 years. A number of people looked at it. It was only when it we tasked S.o.J.D.C. with getting that job done that it got done. They have a track record which I think gives us confidence as the Government that if we give something to them to do, they will get on with it.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I guess that is the question that Deputy Curtis asked, which was are there any other considerations for any other sites coming forward than the ones that you have mentioned, but we are not hearing from the Minister anything at this moment that is being considered for them to take on further.

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

The Regeneration Steering Group meets regularly with S.o.J.D.C. and I think if that group finds that there are public realm projects that need delivery that we do not have the capacity to deliver as the Government, then that certainly would be a possibility.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You mentioned earlier about the Island construction and engineering programme that has been launched, which gives the combined view of all engineering and construction projects either in progress or being planned for delivery over the next 10 to 12 years by Government, Andium, Ports of Jersey and the S.o.J.D.C. What impacts have the cancellation and delays had on this programme and what pressures and time challenges has it identified?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Firstly, I should pay tribute to the staff who are leading in this area. Have you had a briefing on this? Yes. I think it is a terrific piece of work. I should also pay tribute to the bodies that you mentioned that have participated in those discussions and been very helpful. I think the I.S.E. programme helps us make some of the decisions, the tough decisions we have to make. It is not just about the financial resource. It is about the people resource to do work and so what we do not want to do is to overheat the construction industry or deflate the construction industry. It is much better to have a steady flow of works that maintains the resource that is required. In fact, on Monday we are doing a presentation to the construction industry launching the I.S.E. programme to them. I think it is a very good tool, it is an enabler. It certainly helps us as politicians understand the pressures. Hopefully we have got the new hospital. We have got all of the infrastructure projects as well as other capital projects, so I think it helps us. I think it is a good tool and it is long overdue probably.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

Yes, but has it identified any pressures or challenges so far in its operation?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

Not that I am aware of. I think the overwhelming response is that the spikes of feast or famine that have characterised the recent capital programmes, where, as the Minister said, we aspired to a programme of £100 million-plus a year but actually we do not have the capacity to deliver, means that there is confusion in the industry and that maybe there are stops or starts. I think that their desire to have a smooth, achievable, deliverable programme means that they support it. I am not sure that there has been anything.

[11:15]

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

I think the biggest challenge we have got is there is a lot of expenditure within that programme. That is a 10-year look. I think the reprofiling of government capital has not had a significant effect on the 10-year look. It is a smoothing out of our own capital to be more realistic about our own delivery. However, the biggest parts of that programme, certainly Andium, S.o.J.D.C., the hospital programme, are bigger spends than the government capital programme. If you look at that, the number as a whole has not really changed fundamentally. The biggest challenge I think we have currently is just getting the timing of those projects out to market for the private sector to be confident about when they are gearing up to deliver those projects. The biggest challenge we are facing is probably the next - we are in that process now - 18-month outlook in terms of just consumer confidence, consumer finance, development finance. Some of that is outside of the control of Government, obviously, but the more we can do with the programme to give confidence that things are coming, it gives industry confidence that they see some light at the end of the tunnel. Some of the challenges are outside of our gift really because of the issues of financial pressures but we are seeing some of the loosening of that just starting to happen now.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You do not anticipate any issues from the cancellation of development projects on the development and construction industries?

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

I think the benefit that public sector schemes has is we should be countercyclical to private sector schemes so that when consumer finance and people buying private homes or leasing private offices starts to wane - and it will always do that and then it will pick up again - the public sector schemes can step in and be countercyclical. The need for affordable housing, the need for our health facilities ... we should be able to use this programme to match the funding to keep our industry going.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I get the idea of the countercyclical approach, but obviously we have recently the failure of yet another private sector construction business. It does not sound like we are getting the balance right, does it?

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

I think there will always be ups and downs in the construction market. That is a function of the construction market. I think if we look back over the last 20, 30 years there will always be companies in the ascendancy and doing very well and there are some companies will be doing less well. Some of that is depending on their order books and there is a lot of other stuff that goes on behind the scenes obviously. I think what we are demonstrating with this programme is there is a lot of significant spend and we should be getting that confident message out there. What the private sector does, the programme does not include private sector spend, so that is a conversation we want to have with the Construction Council about seeing if we can get some sort of profile on private sector confidence and spend in there. It has always been really hard to get because no one really wants to tell us but that is something we want to see so we can see whether graphs are actually cyclical or countercyclical, if that makes sense.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it will help the industry as a whole and it will help us as Government. The design of this is to help the industry and the more people that input into it then the better it will be.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

The panel would also like to know what is being done to ensure that local building firms are able to be competitive in tenders for government projects?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think this will give businesses the confidence to invest in their businesses, particularly in their people. I keep referring to the physical resource as well as the financial resource. It is vital that we get the younger generation involved in the construction industry. It is great to see so many girls involved in engineering, which 10 years ago we would not have seen. We have got to continue to keep people coming through that pipeline because people retire every year and so we have got to make sure we have got young people who see the construction industry as an attractive place to work. We have got to look at methods of building, all those things, and I do believe that the I.S.E. programme will help us give confidence to organisations to invest in their people. It will also help us ... we mentioned Highlands earlier. What is coming on, what is changing, and we have got to get that skill mix as well.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Minister, just to confirm what you are saying is that to help build the skills and the people will help local firms to be able to be competitive within the tendering for government projects at the moment?

The Minister for Infrastructure: I would like to think so, yes.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Going on to the question of liquid waste, Minister, you made it clear that the bridging liquid waste strategy is necessary and not simply a nice to have. The Budget states that in excess of £55 million is needed over the 4 years, yet a total of £21.3 million is allocated in the Budget. It is stated the investment from 2027 will be via a new funding model. Are you able to elaborate, please, on what that model might be?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Not on the detail and I would expect that we will work with yourselves and other key stakeholders in working up what that model will be, but this Government are going to have to come up with the legislative changes so that it can be introduced in a timely fashion. We cannot keep avoiding the challenge; we have got to address it. So we will look forward to engaging with key stakeholders to see what options there are and trying to bring some legislation as soon as we can.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Leading on from that, can I assume, therefore, that a funding model of some kind will be proposed and be debated before the end of the present Government term?

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is my aim, absolute aim, yes.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Still on that subject, you mentioned in your recent letter to the panel the Maufant capacity improvement project has been delayed in favour of the St. Peter s project so that it gives a higher affordable housing yield. I forget the figures but total funding availability over 2024-26 has been reduced and funding is uncertain for 2027 and beyond, which makes prioritisation and planning increasingly challenging. What certainty and security will the project have if the funding model that you are due to propose is in fact rejected?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are reviewing that. We want to deliver homes, clearly, and so we are looking at other sources of capital so that we can actually do the Maufant programme. I do not know if there is any update.

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

I think what that highlights is the capital programme when we publish it invariably come day 2 is invariably wrong because things always move. The capital programme as published is a moment in time on that day, effectively. The prices that we have in the capital programme effectively get

sharpened up as we get closer to delivering contracts so that we have a much clearer idea then on what project values will be and then what timing of delivery will be. Things invariably on the capital programme will always move. I think that is just the overall point to make on a published plan versus then what we are seeing. The capital programme is kept under constant review. Where we are seeing other forms of capital maybe slowing down for a variety of reasons - it may well be because we have not had tenders back or the prices have come in too high - it gives the Government an opportunity to say can we use some of those capital funds to redistribute into other other priorities. That is something the Council of Ministers will do on a regular basis to try to meet their priorities. Maufant will be one of those schemes. It is still something we absolutely want to deliver but if we feel some of the capital is slowing down elsewhere in the programme, we can use that cash flow for benefit elsewhere. The Maufant scheme certainly is our intention, if we can at all get that advanced, we definitely want to deliver that. It is something that the team is ready to get on with. We know what we need to do in that area and it will unlock housing both now but also the capacity for the future. Again, it is just an example of how the capital programme always moves around and, to be honest, we could probably publish 200 versions of the capital programme through the year because things are always flexible and moving because we have adopt a sort of cash flow approach to it, if that makes sense.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Thank you for that. I take it from that that the uncertainty to which I referred should be less uncertain during the course of this Government?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is fair to say, David, we understand the importance and the urgency of Maufant to unlock additional homes and so we are doing whatever we can to find the funds for that.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay, and you will keep us informed of developments?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, we can. I would hope we would not do 200 versions because that to me would seem to be very inefficient.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

On a slightly different topic, can you please provide more detail on the development work on the solid waste circular economy strategy mentioned in your letter to the panel in relation to policy work that you will be supporting?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. That is work that is ongoing. I think we had hoped to do that this time but, as I said earlier, the C.S.P. commitment to keep government fees and duties as low as possible has meant that we have had to get funding from elsewhere. I think in terms of recycling and waste, we have a lot of work to do there. You will be aware that the Comité des Connétable s recently had a presentation on that. My ambition is to get a uniform service across the Island. Currently different parishes do different things. Three parishes still do not do recycling. For me, the more we can recycle the less we need to put into the incinerator and hopefully the longer the incinerator will last. I really aspire to get cartons, Tetra Paks recycled. When I look at my waste, that is the biggest contributor to my dustbin, milk cartons and juice cartons. There is lots of work there to do around the solid waste and we will try to bring that in in the back end of next year.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

You touched on a matter that I was going to raise in this section on recycling generally. Yes, thank you, the Connétable s have received a letter recently from yourself as to plans. Are you saying therefore that your intention is to introduce a uniform central waste collection service?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No. What I would like to do is to get the parishes to be aligned so that they collect in the same format where practically possible. I think the properties in St. Helier may give us a different challenge but I think the majority of parishes could be doing a uniform style collection and we need to pursue that. I do think there could be efficiencies and I do think it may be easier for all the parishes but particularly the 3 parishes that do not do recycling. I know they have struggled to get contractors and I think if we make it simple and work together we should be able to solve that issue.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay. I am sure my fellow Constables will reply to your letter, including myself.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

My final question in this area is the generation of income from commercial and waste charges. In the Government Plan it is acknowledged that to ensure that services continue to be delivered, the States will need to consider alternative income sources, for example commercial solid waste charges. Where are you in the general scheme of things in investigating possible alternatives?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There has been a huge amount of work done in terms of investigation. Again, we need to consult with key stakeholders on that, but it is wrong, in my humble opinion, that people can take truckloads of waste free of charge from commercial sites and the general public are subsidising that. We need to look at our waste in a new way. I look at Guernsey with envy in terms of what they do and I think we can learn from them. I know that my Assistant Minister went to Guernsey in March to look at that among other things and I hope to go soon to see as well.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

My question relating to urgency and priority, again is that something you anticipate you might have in hand or completed in some form by the end of your term?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. I will need the support of the Council of Ministers, and ultimately the Assembly, but I am not going to avoid making tough decisions. That is what I have been put in this job to do. It is not a popularity contest as far as I am concerned. It is about making tough decisions that are right for the Island and both liquid waste and solid waste need addressing.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Thank you for that.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

One more question on waste, which is now inert waste. The Budget suggests that the capacity for inert waste disposal at La Collette is expected to be fully used before the end of 2024 and of course there are tables looking to provide the Budget comparison to the loss of income. Can you just provide an update on whether inert waste capacity is still expected to be fully used by the end of 2024?

Group Director, Operations and Transport:

It looks like we are still going to be able to use ... there is some space available during 2025, for 3 or 4 months into 2025, so we have still got capacity. As you know, we are going through a procurement process for inert waste at the moment, which is drawing to its conclusion, so hopefully we will be able to update the Scrutiny committee with the option of what that is likely to be.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Okay. So the first few months of 2025, at which point there will be no capacity. Minister, are you happy that the site will still be able to operate within the timelines for procurement will mean that you do not have a buildup of inert waste beyond your capacity?

[11:30]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work that has been going on in parallel, the planning committee's decision recently was very helpful for us to give us that confidence, so I am confident that we will have a solution in time. We are going to find ourselves with a different challenge when we come to coastline protection because we are going to need materials. It is just trying to get that bridge.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Please can you provide details on the sustainable transport work that will be delivered and the physical infrastructure that will result from this project?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think there is a lot we can do for relatively low expenditure, personally. Part of our walk around St. Helier recently demonstrates that and I think if you look at the wider Island you can see opportunities. We are currently out to tender for the bus contract and hopefully a decision will be made in the coming weeks. Ridership, for example, in the hopper buses is up by 79 per cent this year because we have started to promote it. I think we could get much higher ridership on the town hopper. We have certainly got the capacity to do that, so that is a positive in itself. In terms of sustainable transport, we are trialling park and ride at Le Quennevais. The uptake, it is fair to say, is pretty low. We have not been able to encourage commuters so far to take it up. It is tends to be retirees who find it easier to park at the sports field than find a parking space in town. We think that there are a number of routes and again we have cycled routes in the east of the Island trying to find ways and I hope to convince some Constables to stop through traffic on some roads, as has been done in St. Clement successfully, to make it easier for cyclists. We have got some rat runs in a couple of areas that I think could be converted into cycling and walking friendly areas.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just to continue on that sort of theme, obviously there is an active policy for St. Helier . I have not seen anything on that yet. Is that something, a priority? The roads are shut down at the moment but we do not seem to have an overall plan.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think my Assistant Minister will be able to give you some assurance that we are keeping the pressure on to get that. We want a parking strategy, we want a walking and cycling strategy delivered and we are constantly looking at that. We have looked at what we can do in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months. I expect to have a meeting in the next 2 weeks for an update on what we have delivered and what we are going to deliver, because we want to see action. We want to see action and there is a lot of work there. We have got some great people within the Infrastructure Department right across who work very hard for us and it is just trying to streamline some of the processes. It takes for ever to get decisions. I was talking to the Constable of Grouville recently; 3 years to get a green lane is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I feel like we are side-tracking a bit here. I will carry on with questions.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Just on that, and it is good to hear a Minister who is interested in seeing a strategy and a plan and then able to then make it go from there and do point by point, so everyone knows the direction of travel. For this, do you feel, because we are on the 2025 Budget, that there is enough funding for you to be able to move that from plans and strategy to be able to move it to physical infrastructure or being able to see some changes? Do you have enough budget for that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I look at it slightly differently. Would I like more funding? The answer would be yes. Can we deliver with the funding we have got? Yes, we can. It is about delivering what we can. There are some practical things we can do that will not be high cost, and I think we have just got to stop talking about it and start doing it. I think that message is being heard loud and clear among the department.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Next question then is: what projects will be delivered using the Climate Emergency Fund?

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure:

Could I perhaps answer that? To go back to your previous question about walking and cycling strategy and routes, in the past Government there was certainly an indication that the Climate Emergency Fund would be appropriate for funding walking and cycling routes. That is certainly ... my intention is that once we get the plan from the department, and we know we need to put in some safe or even segregated cycle routes and more pedestrian crossings, particularly in the urban areas, then it would be appropriate to apply to that fund. That is certainly my intention, that we should apply to that fund, because it is entirely consistent with its purposes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think the Assistant Minister and myself are fully aligned that we believe that the Climate Fund should be used to improve the infrastructure rather than perhaps incentives for different forms of transport.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

How will the savings and recruitment freeze impact Infrastructure and in which specific areas?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think our priority at the moment is looking at where we use consultants. We have had an over- reliance, in my opinion, on U.K. (United Kingdom) consultants. As I have mentioned, we have got some very talented people and we need to find ways of empowering those people. Clearly, there will always be a requirement for us to bring in expertise. There is only one Energy from Waste plant on the Island, so it is pretty tricky to find experienced people to operate that, although we have got a lot of local people working in there. I know when I was on the States Employment Board, it took a long time to find somebody to come and head that up, and we have seen people transfer their skills within Infrastructure. That is our key priority, is around of consultants. We do have some vacancies, but we are working with Jersey Business on productivity as a department, and I think we have got some work scheduled this month or next month, just to try and see what can we do with the resource we have currently got. Clearly this Budget means that we are not going to be doing certain things, so do we redeploy these people to do other things? The active travel is a great example of where we have people who may be doing one thing and we could divert them to do something else.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

What impact does the Government's commitment to reduce the ... I think you have said that. I will cancel that question because you have just answered that. Transport and road safety review.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

This, you will be glad to know, is the end of the Budget questions but of course, Minister, we will be following up with the specific letters further because of our specific review on the Budget.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do we not have a hearing about the Budget?

Deputy H.L. Jeune : We do not, because ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: This is it.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

... of the timeframe within that. Unfortunately it is the same with all the Scrutiny Panels. We are finding it hard to fit a specific scrutiny on Budget, but we will be following up with letters, and if need be and we find some areas that we really feel, we will obviously get in touch with you. But going on to wider issues and current issues, I would like to hand over to Deputy Coles .

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You have mentioned about the trial park and ride scheme from St. Brelade , which was in place until the end of August. Do you know if you had regular users and how many permits were issued? An F.O.I. (freedom of information) response suggests that only 26 permits were issued by the end of July.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, it has not stopped, as far as I am aware. I think 26 is the number. I have asked for it to be published in the parish magazines in St. Brelade , of which there are 2. I also think there is opportunity for people who live in St. Ouen and St. Peter to use the same service. We are keen to find other sites. Park and ride works in a lot of areas. I think it is about identifying ... we need to do more to tell people what the value of riding a bus is. I am desperate to see on the back of a bus the price comparison between a car park and a bus fare because you can save considerable amounts of money. I have said this before. We have been through a cost of living crisis and we did not tell anybody that. I think we have to do more about promoting the value of the bus and the efficiency of the bus, and I would like to do more park and ride trials.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

What were your expectations and numbers for this service?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I am not surprised with the take-up because many years ago we tried in St. John s. We did a survey; lots of people were interested in the park and ride, and I think we had 2 people use the service. What we did there was we extended the bus route from the church to Les Fontaines Tavern, where there is a very large car park, and the buses were running up and down empty, so it was pointless in carrying it on. The good thing about this trial is it sits right alongside a very well-served road with a number of buses that travel along it on a very frequent basis, so I think we need to do more to promote it, personally.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

So you are considering other areas as well?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are welcome to suggestions.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

In December 2021, the then Minister for Infrastructure published the Island's road safety review, which provides statistics and trends in Jersey and made a series of recommendations for improving the road safety of the Island. Could you provide an update on the delivery of these recommendations and the work which is underway?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I can. There were 23 recommendations, 10 of which are completed, 9 are in progress, and the remaining one is for 2027. In general, I think we are making good progress. I think we have been very lucky to recruit the head of that area ... moved from another department actually, but brings a lot of experience. Some really good progress has been made with our colleagues from the police in terms of reporting, so they use a consistent method to report ... what is the word? I must not say "accidents".

Assistant Minister for Infrastructure: Collisions.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Collisions. Is that the word? Is that what it is called, Tristen?

Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure: Collisions.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I get told off when I say "accidents". So there is a consistent measurement of collisions and I think the safe system approach is really good. In October we are going to do a lot of work around tyre safety. You have 2, 3 or 4 generally touchpoints on the road and so not only the tread on a tyre but the pressure of a tyre is really important, so we look forward to doing that. We are working with colleagues in Justice and Home Affairs around bringing forward legislation about drug limits, because we see in the U.K. that drug driving is a bigger problem now than drink driving, and there is no reason to think that that may not be the same case here in Jersey. We need to introduce limits, and we need to introduce roadside testing and give our colleagues in the police the ability to do the good work they did with drink driving and get this reduced.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

You mentioned that there were some recommendations that have not been addressed yet. Can you just provide which ones they are in detail?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

All of them are either in progress ... one, we are due to do a report in 2027, so a review in 2027. You will accept that that is not there. Two have been superseded by the new government structures. I think there is good progress there. We have got somebody working on the data. We produced a report recently about collisions. We are establishing the Road Safety Delivery Board. So I think there is some really good progress being made there. Again, if that is an area that you would like to receive a briefing on as a panel, we would be delighted to share that with you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Just a question on that and, Connétable , you are very much aware of this. I know that there has been now a little bit more of a spike again in races, racing at night. What are the measures that have been put in place? For a while there was not. Is there any way to monitor a lot of the cars that are potentially spruced up? Is there a way of being able to put in place something around that in relation to the cars?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I feel we are straying into Justice and Home Affairs territory, but I am very passionate about this.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : No, but it is road safety.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are eventually, hopefully in my lifetime, going to get some technology that we agreed, I think in February, and the department continually has trouble in purchasing this technology, which is readily available, which will be a great addition to the armoury. We work very closely with the head of traffic policing, who is doing some very good work, and we are making progress. In my experience, good progress has been made but there is a lot more to do. I live right alongside a main road and I hear vehicles at all times of the day and night. It is not just young boy and girl racers. There are some people in some very expensive vehicles who also are driving far too fast on our roads. But I am expecting the technology to be on the Island within 9 weeks of the order being finally placed, and I cannot wait for that to happen.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

In the Island's road safety review, one of the recommendations made is for a road safety strategy to be produced from 2022 to 2032. Please can you provide an update on the progress of the strategy and what is the timeline for delivery?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work is progressing. I have just been told that the order has been placed today.

[11:45]

Sorry, I was distracted. The order has been placed today for that technology. The strategy is going to be ready, I hope, by the end of this year. We have got a fantastic officer who brings a wealth of experience and is due to go to Europe in the coming weeks to learn from colleagues in Europe. So we are not just relying on what happens in the U.K.; we are looking further afield at best practice. There is a lot of work and I think it would be worth giving the panel an update on road safety and the progress that is being made. As I said earlier, it is a combination of the work that is being done by Infrastructure but also in collaboration with the police. I am aware of the work that is being undertaken, and I am sure a briefing would benefit the panel.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

In the road safety review, a commitment was made for the Driver and Vehicle Standards Department to align itself with many U.K. and E.U. (European Union) practices in vehicle testing. Can you provide an update on what progress has been made with this?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Heavy goods vehicles are tested, motorcycles are tested. We have ...

Deputy T.A. Coles :

It is only 125s still, is it not, for motorcycles?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Tristen, do you know the size of the motorbikes?

Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure: It is the light motorcycles at the moment.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Light motorcycles. We have delayed the car testing. I think there are other priorities. I think the Honorary Police, working with D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) and the States of Jersey Police, do a good number of roadside tests. Yes, it would be good to see more done, perhaps at different times of the day, to perhaps identify some of these modified vehicles. But vehicles are often taken off the road. I think the testing of cars ... I understand about the Vienna Convention, et cetera, but my personal view is that if you want to take your car away then perhaps you should get a test. But I do not think we need to add cost to Island motorists and the Government to do it.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

As promised in the Island road safety review, has there been an introduction of periodic roadworthiness inspections and, if not, why not?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is what I just referred to. I forget the numbers now, but literally hundreds of vehicles are stopped at a time and it is inconvenient for motorists, particularly when they are done early in the morning. But often vehicles are taken off the road and I have seen some photographs of vehicles that have been taken off the road, which are quite appalling really. It is something that the team do with D.V.S., liaising with their colleagues in the Honorary and the States Police.

Deputy T.A. Coles :

How are you engaging in consulting with the motoring industry in regards to if someone turns up with a vehicle that is unroadworthy and preventing them from being able to drive off?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The heavy goods drivers ... we are trying to work with the industry because if you appear at D.V.S. and the only thing wrong with your vehicle is that an indicator light is not working, I believe that you should be able to send a video of the indicator light working and we should be able to sign that vehicle off rather than you reappearing for another full test. That costs a lot of money; it costs a lot of time; you are unproductive. We need to work more in partnership with people. So if it is a minor thing that can be rectified quickly, I do not see why somebody would come back for another full inspection. We are trying to work with industry.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Could I just test on that because, of course, there are existing roadworthiness inspections for light motorcycles and heavy goods? Are you happy that the tests on these, especially with regard to light motorcycles, are proportionate to the requirement? If you are uncertain, are you happy to receive feedback from the public with regard to their experience?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I really could not comment on motorcycles, Alex, but I do know quite a lot about heavy goods vehicles, having run heavy goods fleets. Yes, I would be happy to receive feedback about motorcycles.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

One Islander recently explained to me they were turned away with what was the first inspection of a vehicle, so it was 3 years old, because the stock indicators were too close together and the number plate was 11 millimetres. The numbers were not correctly spaced on a stock number plate. Is this the kind of feedback you want to see? You mentioned a change with regards to video feedback and stuff.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is a huge amount of work being done around D.V.S., both from how we process things, customer experience, can we automate things, and I am confident that we are going to see a better experience in the coming weeks and months.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Are you keen to see members of the public feed back through channels and escalate where needed?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

By all means, yes. We welcome ... one of the things we like is customer feedback. In fact I had a briefing from the team only a week or so ago and we do get a lot of feedback. We do an awful lot of things. You see in restrooms, you see at airports where you can rate the service as you go through. Why do we not do that at the recycling centre because, yes, we occasionally get complaints but the team there do fantastic work and we should find a way of recording that and giving that feedback. Yes, we can always make improvements but I think we should do more to measure customer satisfaction.

Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

Just to add something on the technical side, to give some context, the standards that machines are approved to obviously are based on construction use and national standards. Something like the distance between indicators, because it is very important in terms of depth perception for other drivers. Research in New Zealand, particularly, found one way you can improve motorcycle safety is to have edge of handlebar lights, which gives drivers about an extra half or a second to react because they can perceive the depth. So if you are not in compliance with the national standards you can also affect the safety of the rider of that machine and other users of the road, just as an example.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you for that. I think we can pass on to the Connétable .

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, before we leave the question of roads, can I refer to a general matter that we touched on in correspondence regarding a parish matter? Has there been a reduction in membership of your department or consultants that have affected the implementation of roads regarding speed limits?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have stopped using a U.K. consultant. I am not sure if that has or has not impacted in the short term, when it takes 3 years to implement a speed limit change. I am not sure. That is why I have said we are looking at the processes: how can we streamline that process and how can we make sure that we have got trained staff here in Jersey to deliver that?

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I will take my own matter offline, but the basic situation is in a situation where a consultation process has been "completed", all that was required was a ministerial decision, it is frustrating that ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

If somebody puts a bit of paper in front of me, David, I would be more than happy to sign it.

The Connétable of St. Mary : So can I draft that myself then?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Sadly not, and I can tell you that in St. John it has taken 3 years to introduce new speed limits, and we have got St. Mary and St. Ouen also waiting for changes and St. Peter s also waiting for those changes. This is part of the work we are trying to do in terms of streamlining things. We go out to consultation, we get the feedback, we go out to consultation again and then we do it again and sometimes a fourth time, and we just need to make some decisions, do some trials, which we are doing. We have got a trial in Trinity , we have got a trial on St. John 's Road. Those are trials and we will evaluate the feedback and then make a decision as to whether or not to implement the changes on a permanent basis, but I really think we can do more and quicker.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay, thank you for that. My concern is around the actual preparation of one document and if necessary, if your department cannot do it, I think perhaps the Law Draftsman's Office could do it.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not sure what the blockage is. It is certainly not a lack of support from me.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Thank you for that. Answer the real question now.

The Minister for Infrastructure: We are going to do a switch.

Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

Just on the speed limit changes, I do not want to talk too long, I am happy to speak outside the meeting, but there is quite a lot of co-ordination that needs to go on because speed limit changes in one parish have to, of course, be agreed with the adjoining parishes. St. Mary has been taken forward with St. Peter and St. Ouen because you do not want a speed limit to change just because it occurs on a parish boundary. So there is that co-ordination piece and then there are, of course, the processes that were set out in the agreed Island-wide speed limit framework, which was agreed with the Honorary Police, the States Police and all of the Comité des Connétable s. That does add that in. Now that Island-wide speed limit framework work will be coming to a close at the end ... well, sometime in 2025, and then we will be back to do more ad hoc changes, but this is all being built into a simplistic one where we are going around from parish to parish.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

To clarify, are you saying that individual ones arranged, which have been done in collaboration with neighbouring parishes, they have to wait until the full Island-wide is done?

Associate Director, Transport, Highways and Infrastructure:

No, not at all, no. Yours is one of the ... the west of the Island there is one of the last ones to be done because the other parishes joining you have to agree their changes. For efficiency, the parishes are brought through together as one change at the same time. Part of that is agreeing the sites where the polls are going to go, getting the polls up and everything to go. Not all the parishes proceed at the same pace, and we only have so much resource to speak to each roads committee at one time.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are going to speed up the process, David, I assure you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : We will move on ...

The Connétable of St. Mary : We will take it online.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, and to your other Connétable s as well.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, they already know, but there we are. On the question of sea lettuce, in July 2024 it was reported that more than 3 times the amount of sea lettuce had been harvested this year compared to the previous year, and you are reported as providing the annual cost removal as £250,000. It has been an ongoing process. What, if any, long-term plans are there for the management of nitrates, or is that in fact your area or would you stress that towards the Environment?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a combination of Environment, Infrastructure and Economy, because Economy obviously are responsible for beaches. We have the pleasure of not only cleaning, but paying for the cleaning of the beaches. I think we should recognise - and I have said this a number of times - the progress made by the agricultural community in terms of where they use nitrates. I think there is further progress to be made, but we should recognise the progress they have made. I was recently walking at Bel Royal and the beach was clean except for an area outside the outfall. So it is quite clear to me. I have been asked to talk to people about trenches, which I think we may have tried in the past, and someone else has asked to talk to me about shellfish and their ability to remove nitrates, both of which I am happy to explore. We spent significant sums of money at the sewage treatment works, which you have seen first-hand. We had hoped that that would help us. I think it does help, because it could have been worse for someone without those interventions. So I am keen to look at some areas, which in the past have been discarded, and try again.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So have these plans been specifically ... about to start work on or at the moment? It is just an initial but not ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, interested parties have contacted me about that and I said I would be happy to talk to them.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So it is your intention, hopefully, to have this more long-term plan before the end of the Government term?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do think we would be much better further reducing the amount of green waste we have got to collect from the beaches rather than continue to collect it. I do think we should look at what options are there. Officers potentially have looked at all those things in the past and will tell me they will not work. I am happy to look with a fresh set of eyes and see if a trial is worth doing.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Finally, on another topical matter, could you update the panel on the Legionella discovered at Les Quennevais Sports Centre and the action being taken?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely. The team discovered this when they were testing the water. It takes some 2 weeks to prove whether there is a problem or not, so closing the showers was absolutely the right thing to ... or not opening the showers was absolutely the right thing to do. It is unfortunate that it takes some 2 weeks to find out whether it is positive or negative. Clearly we are flushing the pipes, but again I praise the team for discovering that and communicating in the way they have done.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

We said we would get back to it, which is seashore defences and flooding. If you could, Minister, provide a status update on the development of coastal flood alleviation scheme for Havre des Pas and the Grève de Lecq coastal areas, that would be great.

[12:00]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have had 6 facilitated workshops which were between 2 and 3 hours in length. I think some 65 people attended the workshops. I think there was general support for what we are trying to achieve. Why would you not want to protect homes and businesses in that area? I think the events ... we wrote to 2,500 local residents, we published information in the parish magazines, we knocked on doors of businesses, so we have done an awful lot of work there. The overwhelming support is for Advance the Line and new promenade and gardens. That feedback is now getting collated into a report and then that will then come to us during October, I think. Then we will look at that and see how we develop it. We want the community to have input into what we put there. I was asked last week about the delay in the public realm work at Havre des Pas. I think it is absolutely right to slow down because if we are going to do public realm in front of the road why would you do public realm on the road, and so that is part of the decision-making process.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Obviously going into the 6 consultations and all the stakeholder engagement there were, let us say concept plans and assumption as to what the Advance the Line is looking like. What feedback is standing out as positive? Are there ideas that the department are receiving that they are excited about? I know you are in collation phase, but is this really a chance that you are seeing feedback that you would like to act on that might positively change and improve the scheme for residents?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, I think Advance the Line is the one that gets the overwhelming support rather than raising the wall up high. So by advancing the line it gives us a lot of opportunity to provide a public realm, to provide recreational space and also importantly to provide potential for cycle and walking networks towards the east of the Island. I am really encouraged by the feedback. I think, again, we have got great people leading on that, a great team, and so I am quite excited by that work. It is, again, a massive undertaking, between £70 million and £100 million. That is our annual expenditure on the Island's infrastructure on one project, so it is significant.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

The panel obviously know the areas focused within the Shoreline Management Plan, but since that publication, are there any new areas of concern or risk in terms of flooding that are currently being investigated?

The Minister for Infrastructure: From a shoreline perspective?

Deputy A.F. Curtis : Or inland.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Or inland. Clearly, Grands Vaux remains an area of concern. Again, I would pay tribute to the teams. I was being informed last Thursday and Friday, throughout the weekend, and at regular intervals I was given updates on where we were. I think it is testament to the work that has been done that we did not have an event in Grands Vaux this weekend. Can we do more? I think we can with, again, investment, but I think we should recognise the good work that has been done that prevented an incident this weekend. We saw huge amounts of water in a very short period of time, but the team ... because they monitor that, the drains were all cleaned beforehand, diversions of water were made. I think credit where credit is due. I have to say, I was happier on Sunday evening after the storm had passed than I was on Saturday evening when it was approaching.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

You have pre-empted what I wanted to ask, which was a bit more detail on Grands Vaux. Of course, following the flooding in 2023, a then panel heard from the Minister that lessons had been learned and recommendations had come from those. I wonder if you could touch on what those recommendations were and are those the actions that have led to obviously a positive outcome and also any kind of progress on implementing them that has not yet finished but is in the works.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am going to hand over to the experts.

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

I think the answer to that is part and part, so some of the big recommendations from that bit of work whether we need to look at the catchment as a whole and the water system as a whole . That includes everything north of the catchment. It is a very big; it is Jersey's biggest catchment area, Grands Vaux. We need to look at the entire catchment, including the reservoir and the Jersey Water infrastructure, as well as our own, as well as parish infrastructure. So there are 2 parishes there as well. There is more co-ordination between parties. We are working better with parishes in terms of cleanliness and who is doing what in terms of pre-empting water coming through. We have also looked at some of the diversions of how water does flow through that catchment and what hits the foul sewer in various places and the surface water drains. There is still ongoing work on that. We have not done any significant capital works to increase capacity, but we do know where we need to target our efforts. We have provided some initial capacity by use of pumps and things like that and this weekend has been an example of that. We can pump from one area to another. We still do need to do more work with Jersey Water as to how we are working in concert with them because we fundamentally believe that the system as a whole can work together to manage quite a significant amount of flood risk there. We have done some but I do not think some of the most significant recommendations have yet to be delivered.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Lastly from me before ... in case anyone else had another one.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just a quick one on this one. I know controversially it was between Infrastructure and Jersey Water about the level in the reservoir. On this occasion, was the level of the reservoir lowered deliberately or not?

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment: It was not. No, the reservoir was full up.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay, thank you.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Lastly, just touching on those recommendations, the former Minister mentioned the production of a flood assessment report, which I presume would include those conversations, a more wider plan. Is there an update or a timeline you could share on progressing that report and its publication?

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

We have not got anything live on a flood assessment report as such. The answer I have just given in terms of some of the specific infrastructure changes that we want to see, we are currently just looking at ... Going back to the previous conversation about budget, we have to make sure our money is being spent in the most appropriate place. Are we talking about significant drainage upgrades or can we do some interceptions further up the catchment to make sure water is flowing away from the catchment? We are just looking again at that because the more we manage the situation, the more ideas come out in terms of how to manage that water. We have not got that report yet, but I am hoping that we can certainly keep Scrutiny up to date in terms of our thinking.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

We may want to ask for a timeline on that in the future.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, I have visited the site with Jersey Water. I have spoken to officers. I have also spoken to the rural economy about the potential for farmers to receive recognition for making land drains, because what we do have in a lot of areas, which historically would have had a land drain, those have been lost. So we see areas around the Island, some that contribute to this, but all around the Island where we see flooding where we have never seen flooding before. I think if we could reintroduce land drains and give the farmer some recognition for not using that area of land, just as we do have the ability with field paths, I think that would be something worth considering.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, and we are moving on to Deputy Warr on estate management.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

My favourite topic of mine at the moment. Please could you tell the panel which team and which budget will be responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the new government headquarters?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Firstly, we should say that last week government headquarters were handed over on time, it has been delivered on budget, but also the project has received accreditation for accessibility from Liberate for its ... it got a gold standard for engineers.

Chief Officer, Infrastructure and Environment:

It is wi-fi wide. Its I.T. (information technology) is gold.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Its I.T. standards is really in the top echelons. What was the third one?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

The Building Research Establishment Assessment Model, which is a measure of sustainability. But it is the highest rated sustainable office in the Channel Islands at the moment.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So that was terrific. The building will come under Property Holdings, as all other government buildings do.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Next question then: please could you update the panel on whether the ownership of the Grève de Lecq site has been transferred to the National Trust?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It has not as of yet. We are still in dialogue with colleagues in Infrastructure about accessibility for the buses. I hope that is going to be resolved in days rather than weeks or months. We would like to maintain as much parking ... I would like to maintain as much parking as possible. That message has been received by the department.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Sorry, I do not ask questions about my own parish operation all the time but I was aware that the property would be transferred to the States initially. Is it purely the negotiations with Jersey Bus which are holding it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, it is not Jersey Bus, it is internal. So I expect that to be resolved fairly quickly.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

So we are not ... the handover is not subject to any further plans that National Trust themselves have to do with it?

The Minister for Infrastructure: No.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Okay, thank you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think, quite rightly, people saw an opportunity to create an all singing, all dancing bus terminus. I do not think that is what we voted for. I think we voted to buy that land for the National Trust to give accessibility, and I think we have got to maintain as much of the parking as we possibly can. There are alternatives for the bus, and I think the team have gone away to look at those alternatives.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Next question is: do you have any update on the tender process for the Philip Le Feuvre House?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not actually. What happens with the tenders is we do not get any inkling of what is happening. I can say that with my hand on my heart. Whether that is about solid waste, whether that is about buses or Philip Le Feuvre House, we do not get any indication of what is happening.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So just to follow up on that: do you believe that housing is still the right use for this site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The Bridging Island Plan identified the site as housing. I think if we are to realise the maximum value of the site, then you would look to put housing there, but I also appreciate the thoughts about putting a park with parking underneath. I think we need to wait to see what tenders we get and see what value they bring, because when you walk down Ann Street, as we did last week again, and around the town, the realisation of how many units of accommodation comes home.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is that tender open for alternatives as well, or is the tender just specifically calling for housing in the sense of having imagination for other things as well that potentially could be on that site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am going to have to ask.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

The tender is for the sale of the combined site. If somebody wants to put a park on it then that is absolutely fine. The use is not defined; the availability of the site is. As the Minister says, we will identify, once the tender review process has been through, what our subsequent actions will be.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Just to check on that, so obviously the complication of the ownership is aside from this, but Jersey Property Holdings currently act in the landlord function for that to C.L.S. (Customer and Local Services) just as they do with the Education estate?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

In terms of the administration and the governance of the ownership then absolutely you are right, there is an element of the Social Security Fund that is involved but that is an equity aspect, but the governance of the administration of the premises, the building and the transaction is looked after by Property Holdings.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much. Finally on this, please could you give an update on the Havre des Pas pool and the Lido contract?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is no contract for the Lido. The contract with the tenant expired 3 years ago and they have been served notice to quit in October. We had to go out to tender for the Lido. I think we would like to see it utilised for the community. We are just out to tender for some works to be carried out down there. I do not know if that tender is closed?

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

The tender is closed and it will be evaluated in a week's time.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is again significant investment in the property. I could have chosen my words much better in the Assembly when I said it was a liability. It is an asset of the Island and one that we are responsible for. So we are going to go out in quarter 4 for tender to see what people would like to use the property for.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is there funding in 2025 for the maintenance of Havre des Pas with that tender that you are talking about?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As part of our role in maintenance. We have spent £300,000 in recent time and we plan to spend another £500,000.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

And that is put in the budget?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

[12:15]

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Just on that then, you have talked about it to be maintained as a community space. How are you trying to ensure that that is community space and, with all the different facilities there, how to ensure that that will remain for the public and for future facilities there? Will that work?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think that is hopefully ... we have got ideas, other people have got ideas, similar ideas I think, and we will look to see what the tender process brings in terms of usage of the site.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So the tender process is for the maintenance of Havre Des Pas ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: No.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

... or the tender process is for the use of the site?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Okay, I thought it was for the maintenance. So the maintenance is separate.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are going to see if people are interested in taking on the site, but I cannot see anybody maintaining the site without support of the Government. There will need to be government support, I am sure, ongoing government support.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

We have had discussions in the past trying to find agencies or interested parties to take on the site, but it has its challenges. It is inundated twice daily, so it will be interesting to see what emerges.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

Could I just check what those different things were? I think that was just a little hard to understand. Has there just been a tender for repair works that has gone out and coming in that was published, closed and being reviewed right now and you are seeking a tender for the occupation of the commercial space which has yet to be put out to tender?

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is correct.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

But there were the 2 tenders, one for repair?

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is correct.

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

The proposed maintenance work as covered by what must have been submitted tenders, will that require vacant occupation of the site for a time or will any tenant, current or future, be able to operate from the site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not know the answer to that question.

Director, Jersey Property Holdings:

There are various aspects to the work that has been tendered. Primarily, it is the construction of the pool area, the sluice gates, the functioning of it as a swimming facility. There are also aspects of the external aesthetic appeal, so it will not require vacant possession for that work to be undertaken. However, as the Minister says, it is our intention to secure vacant possession in the autumn in order to allow us to then go to tender for ideas of running activities and operation of the site.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. Just looking at my panel to see if they have anything else.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I have but I do not know if it is appropriate for me to ask the question, that is all.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think we have got answers to those questions, I think that is fine for now. I am pleased to say that we are at the end of our over 41 main questions but we had lots of sub-questions, so I think within a 2-hour session ...

Deputy A.F. Curtis :

I would just add I think we may still have a placeholder for a Budget meeting that may or may not take place, so just for the Minister to be ready in case things change.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I was about to add that I am sure we will be having another Budget session, I was hoping, because I know that a lot of the questions that we asked at the beginning you mentioned that obviously you are the holders of Infrastructure but you get others, like C.Y.P.E.S. and other departments request that. I think it will be important for us to liaise with other Scrutiny Panels to understand that and then be able to come back to you at the end and understand more on that. I was hoping to look over and see if we could have another session, maybe not as long as this one.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is our expectation that we will come and talk to you specifically about the Budget so ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That is good. I am pleased that we have found a space for us and that we have already covered quite a lot as a basis, and we will then be able to dig in further in some of the areas and, as I say, feed in with the other Scrutiny Panels and having those links, because it is very important to show that there is linkage on both sides.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, and again extend the invitation. If you want to talk to the Road Safety or any other area of the department, you are very welcome to.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much, Minister. Please extend to the Assistant Minister as well. Thanks for attending the hearing today. Also thank you to the officers who attended as well. I would like to thank the members of public who were here and then also hearing online and watching back in the future as well. Thank you very much. I would like to close this meeting.

[12:20]