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STATES OF JERSEY
Environment Scrutiny Panel Air Quality Review
TUESDAY, 27th NOVEMBER 2007
Panel:
Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman) Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour Professor D. Laxen (Advisor)
Witnesses:
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development) Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):
If you will forgive me, I am not on good form today. I am dragging myself in, so I am not feeling great so I am going home after this. So, forgive me, if you are not going to get much out of me this afternoon but I am not feeling great.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman): Not much out of you?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Pardon?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Oh, well, we will try.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : You can try.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
All right, okay. We would like to introduce our Panel Advisor Professor Duncan Laxen, Deputy Maclean and Senator Ozouf . Right, okay, let us kick off then. We have sent you a list of questions. Now, I am told that I do not need to read the notice to States Members. They know the words and the rules. Right, we have broadly kind of grouped the questions into 3 areas and I will take it in order, I think.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Right, well, let me start by saying I will be totally honest with you. I mean, asking me questions about air quality and the details of air quality is -- you know, this is not a field of my expertise. It is not a particular field of my political focus.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes, well, that is fair.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I mean, all we have done is these questions have been sent to the departments that they are allocated to and I have answers which I am going to tell you. I am afraid you are not going to get much more out of me than that because I simply do not -- and I would hope that you would not expect me to be an expert on issues to do with air quality, so what you are going to get is you are going to get the answers that have been provided to us and I am happy for you to give further questions, you know, based upon that which I will act as a post box.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Well, that is the way it works, Senator, and, you know, we will judge later as to whether or not we think your answers are satisfactory or not and whether or not they would require further meetings with any of your advisors to assist you in the answering of questions that you feel you cannot answer yourself.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I will be honest with you, I am afraid such is the time commitments that are required for other matters that this has not been an issue on ...
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
No, I understand.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I am sorry if it has not high up on our agenda but it really is not high up on our agenda.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Yes, okay. Well, I propose to start then.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Okay.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So the first question we have down, as you know, when the Island moved to ministerial government, we spent the first couple of months putting together the Strategic Plan and within the Strategic Plan there were various bits and pieces; strategic aims to do with air quality management issues and a number of the departments were given specific lead roles or subsidiary roles in order to try and bring about, according to the criteria on that we were using to judge the success or otherwise of the moves into the particular strategic areas. Our finding so far is that there appears to be an element of confusion as to where the lead responsibilities lie. That said, the Economic Affairs Department does have an interest in air quality, notably being the organisation that looks after the affairs of the harbour and the airport. Both of these places have a lot vessels and vehicles emitting lots of gases which may or may not be a problem. But bearing in mind the move towards ministerial government - and that took place a couple of years back - what action has been taken and is being taken by the Economic Affairs Department, particularly with regard to the airport and harbours to ensure that air quality complies with best practice and the aims outlined in the Strategic Plan as at 4.4.5, I think it is.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Right, okay. Well, I will say 3 things to things. First of all, I am clear that the extent to which there is an air quality strategy for Jersey, the lead department is Planning and Environment. So that is why you are not going to sort of get the fully researched full service to Scrutiny that you would for other policies because I regard this as being -- I regard the Economic Development Department with harbours and airport as being subsidiary and we will take the lead from Planning and Environment and, to some extent, Health Protection. I would also say that I am aware that the Environment Department -- the Energy Policy Consultation which is the document that has been issued which is relevant does say the States does not proposed to tackle energy use by aviation and shipping industries in isolation. In other words, it is not that we are a complimentary contributor to energy and air quality and other such issues but it is not a -- we are not going to deal with air quality problems by simply tackling aviation and shipping alone. Having said that, we do recognise that harbours and airport does impact 2 areas, local air quality and contribution to greenhouse gas emissions; aeroplanes and ships in transit, et cetera. We will, no doubt, go on to discuss some of these details in some of the questions that you follow on from.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right. So, broadly, you are saying then, just to sum up, that no specific actions have been taken by the Economic Affairs Department.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
No, I did not say there were no actions -- no specific actions. There are lots of actions and I note from the website that you obviously have the Airport Environmental Policy. You have that which basically says that the airport is taking environmental issues and air quality seriously and the airport has been doing various different things. Let us not say that the airport of the harbour or Economic Development has done nothing. We have lots of things and we will come on to these in some of the details but they are not driven by the Air Quality Review; they are driven just as being a good harbour and airport operators.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right. Do you find that if that is the case, that is an acceptable state of affairs, bearing in mind that the lead strategic role is to P. and E. (Planning and Environment) and are you raising those views as a criticism?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Other people will have to answer that. We are in the job of running the strategic assets of the States; the harbours and the airport in an appropriate best practice manner. But we are not going to take the lead from -- we have not been taking the lead from, you know, a specific policy. We are just getting on and doing -- and the departments -- and, again, you know, I only know a lot of these things because of what I have read as a result of the questions that you have submitted.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay. So has the department been given any specific targets to achieve?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Not politically. They may have been from an operational point of view.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay. All right, that is fairly clear. Right, what resources do you currently allocate to Jersey's obligations to comply with any multilateral agreements that we are signed up to?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Resources are not directly allocated to air pollution control at the harbour or the airport. Resources are currently directed at the potential hazard of oil pollution caused by ships in Jersey waters. We do not have access to a multilateral agreement called Mancheplan, the Anglo-French Joint Maritime Contingency Plan apparently. However, this is not really --
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean of St. Helier : We do have.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : We do? Sorry, we do have.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: We do have.
I have not read the answer properly. We do have access to the multilateral plan. However, this is not really an agreement aimed at dealing with air pollution and air quality legislation regarding ships is not yet in place.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay, but bearing in mind your comments, I mean, if indeed there is no overall guidance or insistence or encouragement being given from P. and E. in order that the Economic Development Committee carry out specific roles in order to achieve an overall air quality strategy for Jersey then, presumably, there is no kind of real question of --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, there may well be at an operational level, but I am not aware of any.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
But you are not aware of it. Okay. Right, do you have any views of how the current structure within the areas of responsibility that are shared over the number of departments could be improved to ensure that effective air quality monitoring could be made?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
If I could just go back very quickly on the Mancheplan agreement, Jersey is specifically tied into this agreement and, in the event of an accident, could seek help to contain any form of pollution, including air pollution. Just to follow on from the previous comment.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
But I think -- were you not indicating that, because it is dealing with oil pollution, is probably more closely to spillages rather than the air emissions that would come about from the burning of that material or otherwise?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: Well, in theory, it covers both. Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Right, okay.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Have you missed out your question number 3?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: You answered it, I think.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think we have already answered that. Right.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
I do not fully intend to cover them in any strict order.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Okay.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Or, indeed, to cover all of them if I feel you have answered them.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Okay. Well, question 4. Given the Economic Development remit of the department, we are not best placed to answer this and cannot comment on whether air quality is well monitored or not. Where E.D.D. (Economic Development Department) do have responsibilities is in this very specific area of pollution from ships and it would certainly be helpful to receive expert assistance from officers in Environmental Health who could help with monitoring and enforcement. The problem is less about shared responsibility and more about there being no allocated responsibility in the first place.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right. There are various articles published in the press and one of them is from the New Scientist on 17th November 2007 and the article was headed "Death on the
Ocean Waves" and was talking about pollution from ships in the form of tiny airborne particles and suggesting that, according to the studies, those airborne articles kill at least 60,000 people a year worldwide. Now, we have had various representatives in from the shipping companies to talk about the emissions from their ships. Is there anything that the Harbours and Airport Department would be insisting upon in terms of requiring specific operators to improve on their kit or taking particular notice as to the emissions that are generated as boats come into the harbour or go out of harbour?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Where did this report come from, sorry?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
This was a report in the New Scientist on 17th November 2007 and there was an undertaking by a Mr. James Corbett of the University of Delaware, Newark.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, I am afraid I do not read the New Scientist, so I do not know about that report.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
No, you do not but I have asked you the question in its generality, bearing in mind there should --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, I mean, Chairman, there is no point in asking me questions about things that are completely outside the field of my competence.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Bearing in mind that ships do come into the harbour, right, and we have it on evidence that when the engines are cold and when they are revving up in at a particular rate or whatever, then the fuels that they are burning will sometimes emit quite a large number of airborne particles which do have health implications. I am just asking the Minister - and perhaps the Assistant Minister if he is more in touch with the issue - to indicate the extent to which the department would be worried about such an issue without being directed towards worrying about it by Health Protection Services or indeed the Planning and Environment Committee.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
To be fair, Chairman, we would be concerned about any levels of pollution, whatever they may be, but what I would interested to know is what other ports' position is with regard to similar incidents and, from a commercial perspective, what impact it may have and, clearly, whatever actions we were to choose to take would have to be aligned to what other ports were doing to ensure there was no commercial disadvantage at the same time.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So, if indeed the P. and E. Committee were to ask your department to look into the issue and to make a comparison, you would be quite happy for your department to be party to those surveys?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
More than happy to do that, yes.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay, thanks. One for the Minister. Has the issue of air quality been discussed, in your memory, at the Council of Ministers during your period as Minister and, if so, what was the outcome of those discussions?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
It has been discussed with the -- in respect of the relevant strategies on energy policy and the integrated travel and transport policy. I am not aware that it has been discussed in its own right.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, from an air quality point of view?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Yes.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Right, okay.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Is that the same answer that you had from other Ministers?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Other Ministers, I think, were not in a position to remember any discussion.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Okay, so --
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So maybe your powers of memory are better than theirs. Economic growth. What impact do you think that continued population growth will have on the Island with regard to environmental issues such as air quality?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, the population policy has been -- the population consultation paper has been published last week and that, for the first time, has a very detailed analysis of the different infrastructure and related issues concerning increased population growth in Jersey and I think we fully appreciate that a rise in population out with other controls will have impacts on additional traffic levels and increased numbers of people arriving in ships and aircraft and the rest of it. So there is a debate and there is a consequence to be had and to be understood about increased population growth. What I would say is that there is a clear -- there is going to be a widespread public debate about what we are doing with the population as far as Economic Development is concerned. We are working within the States agreed plan of one per cent increase in the working population and we are currently running at .9 per cent increase in the working population. So we are -- we will tune the laws that we have in a manner which is calculated to deliver what the States tell us in terms of numbers. Personally, I believe that the Island can focus its activities on low environmental impact businesses such as financial services and intellectual property services moving away
from the more traditional sectors. That will have an issue concerning -- that will have a beneficial effect in relation to economic growth in the context of limiting population growth. We will be supporters of other departments in what they seek to do to set standards for air quality, energy policy and the rest of it, so we are an instrument of implementation as in comparison to sort of setting standards. I do not see Economic Development as setting environmental standards. That is for the Environment Department to do.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
It might be worth adding that it could be useful to have air quality monitoring information relating to population growth.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes, right. Constable.
Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary :
Could I ask, from your side, is it the same for the economic growth and such like? But, being as you, right at the very beginning, felt that was a planning issue who should be in control as such of the air quality -- you gave that impression and then, obviously, with health coming into it, there has been a slight, may I say, confrontation between the 2 because Health feel that it should be more a -- Planning feel it should be more of a Health issue and vice versa. Do you -- when you think of a development, do you ask them; the Health or the Planning for advice and such like before going ahead or is it --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Economic Development will be a good corporate partner on the Council of Ministers. Our job is not to set environmental polices, energy policies or air quality policies. Our job is to implement --
The Connétable of St. Mary :
So it is not an issue from your concern?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
It is an issue.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
It should be the others that should be directing yourselves.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Absolutely, and we will be a good corporate Council of Ministers partner.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Saviour :
Does it surprise you to -- you probably are aware how protection do traffic and have for some years monitored traffic hotspots in the town, but does it surprise you to know that they do not have enough financial resources to have the proper equipment to do that? The modern, mobile laboratory equipment to carry out their monitoring to modern day standards.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: Is it a surprise?
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en: Are you surprised to hear that?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Disappointed, I suppose, would be a better way of putting it.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, the Health Department consumes, is it, £130 million out of the total States' spending of £500 million? They, presumably, have made strategic decisions in the way that they allocate their resources and our budget, in comparison, is about £16 million or £17 million. No doubt, there are good reasons why they have decided to deploy their resources in other health-related issues.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
Well, there is a possibility that acute wards --
Maybe. You would know better than me.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
I have certainly experienced - and, no doubt, others Members around the table have experienced - similar things. A number of visitors coming to the Island and expressing their disappointment at the quality of the air, particularly in the town in terms of the road traffic and being a little bit surprised in terms of the marketing that is put forward to kind of picture the Island or promote the Island as a green place with environmental credentials kind of high up there as something that we are all supporting. Does air quality impact, in your view, on tourism within Jersey or is it something that you are not particularly aware of?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I have not had one complaint concerning air quality and I am not aware of any complaints being levied to the Tourism Department. There may well be some but I certainly have not seen them. As far as Jersey's general issues of air quality are concerned, we are an island sitting in the English Channel with an air quality which is being constantly refreshed by our prevailing winds, so I think that we can say that we have a different air quality and an improved or a different air quality standard than central London or a city centre or elsewhere. We are an island. There are no doubts on issues concerning particular hotel premises in and around St. Helier which are a result of increased traffic activity on our major roads but I think I would struggle to consider that or struggle to believe that they are any worse than any other city centre hotels that exist in other places that we are competing with.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I would be surprised if our air quality is worse than most other comparable areas in the U.K. (United Kingdom). I do not know if there is sight of the evidence to suggest that that is the case. I mean, we are very fortunate from a geographic point of view where we obviously have the benefits of the fresh sea air, there are no major pollutants around and no heavy industry, so I would not expect that to the case. That does not mean of course we cannot improve and should not be continually looking to improve with regard to our environment and air quality.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, you know, the people who spoke to me on more than one occasion were visitors from the Antipodes. They were from New Zealand.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
A different comparison perhaps.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So I daresay the air is cleaner over there than it is over here but the interesting point the Minister has mentioned is the fact that the prevailing winds would clean the air or at least blow emissions off the Island or away from the Island. Do you think that that is sufficient to perhaps exonerate people from the responsibility of producing those emissions in the first place?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : No, not at all.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
So would the Economic Development Department support moves by the Planning and Environment to encourage - with the help presumably of the Transport and Technical Services - a move towards a greater use of cars or transportation systems that do not pollute the atmosphere as much as the petrol and diesel generating motors that drive them do at the moment?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Yes, but it has to be cost-effective to do that. There is no point in setting out a policy for Jersey to say that we are going to be -- and it sounds great to be, you know, an all electric vehicle Island but the realities of that are does that stack up economically for households in the Island in terms of cost and is it acceptable from a standard of living point of view to inflict a world of electric cars on the Island when people use their cars to go on holiday and all the rest of it and where they are spending some of their time in the U.K. and Jersey? It is all about balance and it is about doing as best we can in our class. I am fully supportive. I used to be the Environment and Public
Services President, so I am all for raising and continuing to raise the bar in relation to building standards and other standards where we can. But I am not sure that Jersey can -- it is an interesting situation and I am happy to have it put to me about whether or not we can be, you know, a test bed for certain, you know, different types of vehicles but we do need to have an eye on the cost of these issues as to whether -- and the practical nature of these things. There is no point in setting environmental standards that simply drive our economic growth rates, you know, down so that we cannot enjoy the fruits of raising the standard of living which we are trying to pursue. That is why the Government is pursuing economic growth; to raise the standard of living of the communities in which they live.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
While, at the same time, preserving the quality of life.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Yes. There is a trade-off.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Right, Professor Laxen.
Professor D. Laxen:
While we are on the issue of tourism, I note that you have this excellent system of green lanes in the Island and I was wondering whether that is promoted from the tourist point of view and whether you encourage people to come here because you have that system; cycling holidays and the like?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Jersey is an island. It is a green island and is something which figures importantly in our marketing offer. I am personally somewhat sceptical about green lanes because of the reality that I am not sure that I see many green lanes in which people stick to the 10 miles an hour or however miles an hour it is. I cannot even remember.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Fifteen.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Fifteen. I am sceptical about sort of some of these symbolic marketing issues which do not have much substance in them. But is Jersey an attractive place to come on a cycling holiday with or without green lane designation? Well, yes, and it is something with our cliff paths and our other natural resources that are an important part of our tourism offering.
Professor D. Laxen:
Having holidayed here in the past with my kids and having brought cycles, I see the green lanes as a very positive way of encouraging tourism of a more benign nature and I had hoped, when I was using them, that the green lanes were safe to be on. It is a little bit worrying that perhaps they are not as safe as I believed they were.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Well, your panel can discuss that but I am not aware of any particular enforcement in parishes about keeping people to 15 miles an hour and that is a problem.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
There is enforcement, yes, in different parishes.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Is there?
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Again, for that simple reason that it has been promoted by tourism as such so we are having to maintain that so that when people do go back they can report on it. It is rather disappointing that you think that is not one because tourism do promote and advertise it quite heavily.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think we are all aware of green lanes and going up and down green lanes and people not sticking to the speed limit but that is an issue for Transport and Technical Services and the parishes.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
But that is an issue with all the speed limits on all the roads. They may be promoted as no more than 40 miles an hour but lots of people do go a lot faster. Tourism promoted --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
We have beautiful country lanes which, by their design and by their topography, you cannot drive at 40 miles an hour. Branding them "green" and putting a speed limit of 15 miles an hour is, I think, somewhat symbolic and there are some parishes that do not have green lanes. Are they any less visited by tourists? I am not sure. I am somewhat sceptical about this symbolic sort of nature of some of these announcements.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
It is disappointing with you being in charge of the tourism that you do not because tourism advertises tremendously the green lane thing, so it does come as a surprise to me you are not more favourable towards them because of the tourism because there are a lot of tourists who come specifically for them.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
Would you be more in favour of green lanes if the speed limit was raised to, say, 20 miles an hour?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I would want proof. I am concerned that we send a message out that we have green lanes with people driving 15 miles an hour and I am not sure that I have ever seen anybody prosecuted for driving more than 15 miles an hour in a green lane. Maybe I am wrong.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
You are wrong because there were 2 or 3 that were about 2 weeks ago.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Okay. If that is happening, then that is good.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Yes.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, moving on. Within the new open skies policy for Jersey, what measures are available to the States to encourage airlines to use aircraft that are as fuel efficient as possible?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
There are no particularly guidelines within -- or policies available to the States with regard to that but it is worthy of note that today's aircraft per passenger per kilometre are typically 70 per cent cleaner and 75 per cent quieter than they were in the 1960s. The aviation industry has already committed to the target established by the Advisory Council for Aeronautics Research in Europe and of course airlines that operate -- some of the larger operators within Jersey like Flybe, for example, are committed to the purchase and operation of more environmentally efficient aircraft. This is an industry-wide policy more to do with the airlines themselves than government, although in the U.K., there has been a move imposed by the U.K. Government to try to tackle the environmental impact of aviation by air passenger duty. I think the feeling generally is that that particular move is not necessarily targeted in a way that we would like to see it being targeted and does not necessarily mean that those taxes are going to find their way through to the desired end result which is to improve the environment. The feeling is there are probably better ways of dealing with it but from Jersey's point of view, there are no policies or other instruments available to us to achieve that aim.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Within the open skies policy, is the aim to encourage new routes and operators to Jersey and, in that context, to have more smaller aircraft coming to the Island within the capacity of the airport's runway or indeed are there long-term proposals being thought about on a blue sky basis - no pun intended - perhaps to lengthen the length of the runway in order to accommodate much larger aircraft that could bring in a greater increase in numbers than indeed smaller aircraft would do otherwise?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
We are in a slightly fortunate position certainly in comparison to Guernsey insofar as the fact that we have a longer runway than they do which has allowed us to develop our air route network. However, from a practical point of view, as the move and development in the aviation industry is seeing aircraft changing their dynamics, that, in itself, is presenting some problems in terms of developing our air routes. We have recently seen Thomson withdrawing from the market or certainly scaling back with an ultimate aim of withdrawing. That has a lot to do with not just their recent merger, but with the fact that they are changing the aircraft and phasing out their current fleet over the next 4 years, so it is a challenge for the Island. I think there is very little opportunity, however, to be able to lengthen the runway from a practical point of view unless you wanted to move the airport which is clearly entirely impractical as a suggestion, so we are going to have to live within the confines of the length of the existing runway.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay. Thanks for that. So do you have any indication at this early stage as to the increase in the number of flights that you would be expecting to see over the next 5 or 10-year period?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
The projected growth over the next 5 years is estimated at less than 4 per cent for each of the next 2 years and then 2 per cent thereafter per annum but it is clearly quite difficult to be precise in that regard, as I am sure you will appreciate. I think one point probably worth making is that if you look at the load factors on individual aircraft, they are not as high as we would like to see them and, indeed, there has been some work to try and encourage airlines to increase their capacity. Typically, you will find the low-cost operators looking for yields of about 85 per cent plus in terms of numbers of passengers to capacity of the aircraft. Typically, Jersey has operated -- a lot of the airlines like British Airways and others have been happy to operate with 60 to 65 per cent so there are opportunities to try and encourage airlines to increase their loadings.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay. Are there any plans by the department to offset the increased carbon emissions that these new aircraft routes will encourage?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
There have been some moves certainly through initiatives driven, for example, by the Jersey Conference Bureau which has encouraged new conference business into the Island to do some tree planting and enter into some offset arrangements and those initiatives are being progressed at the moment but that is all I am aware of that I can comment on.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay. Are you in a position to state whether or not they would be token schemes or whether or not they would probably be able to offset the total load of the carbon that is being produced?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I could not comment at the moment, I am afraid. I do not know the answer to that.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay, thanks. Does the department have any other measures that could be taken to reduce vehicle emissions from the airport vehicles and are there any plans to introduce such measures if none exist?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
The airport's fleet of vehicles are serviced at least twice a year. There are certain vehicles like the fire tenders on a more frequent basis. The service includes tests for road worthiness and emission levels. All the baggage lorries and tugs are electric which, clearly, have the desired effect. This decision was taken at the time of the building of the 1997 terminal building as a means of preventing fumes and emissions from entering the baggage makeup area. All vehicles that operate airside at Jersey Airport are monitored for road worthiness and clean exhaust emissions and have to be signed off as such by a competent engineer.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Has the department run any trials of enzyme fuel additives which are alleged to enhance the emissions in a positive way environmentally?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
No, but the bigger -- not that I am aware of.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: No, I am not aware of that.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
The biggest organisation that is doing that in Jersey would be the sponsor of the Battle of Flowers.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Is that a reason for --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
No, that is just relevant to know that they some support from E.D.D. by leveraging the effect of the Battle of Flowers. We have a fuel additive -- a green fuel additive sponsor for the Battle of Flowers. Did that help the Battle of Flowers? I do not know.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay. Right, on the harbour front, what is being done down there to reduce emissions generated by harbour activities?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
In recent years, diesel compressors for fridge units on freight trailers have been replaced by electric ones. This has both reduced noise and pollution. Some port operators are using L.P.G. (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) or electric forklift trucks as well. Shore based emissions are governed by D.V.S. (Driver and Vehicle Standards) and other shore based environmental legislation but the port itself does not impose any emission controls. The port inevitably has a reduced air quality when the La Collette power station is being used and it has been noted that more H.F.O. (Heavy Fuel Oil) has been imported and burnt this year than certainly in recent times.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
You mentioned that the port does not impose any controls at the moment over commercial freight operators. Would the department be supportive of doing this if, indeed, it was established to be an overriding or overarching kind of environmental initiative?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I think, on that basis, and also looking at best practice that is adhered to in other relevant ports, yes, we would clearly be prepared to look at it.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Okay, fine.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
You mentioned just before that it was introduced for the vehicles, you know, for their quietness and so on. Was it mainly because of the noise or the pollution that it was introduced or was it primarily for the noise because of the situation of where the harbour is so that we keep the noise levels down or did the pollution come into it initially? Which would have been first?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Both factors are clearly important; noise at the harbour but --
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I know they are both important but was there any pressure put upon yourselves because of the noise and priority to the pollution side of it?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I am not aware of the prioritising of that particular decision.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Because, obviously, where it is situated, noise levels -- noise pollution comes into it as much as the --
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: Absolutely, I do appreciate that.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
So you could not honestly say that it was because of the air pollution and such like that created more demand than the actual noise?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
The actual priority with regard to the driving of the decision, I do not know the answer to that, but both are important, as you rightly point out.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Sorry?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
But both are important, as you rightly point out.
The Connétable of St. Mary : Yes, okay.
Professor D. Laxen:
Could I just ask when the change took place with the situation with --
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
It has been in the last few years but I could not give you an exact date. We could certainly come back to you on that if you want something more specific.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Has the department been informed or it is aware of the changes to the vessel fleet operating at the harbour and the extent of which more modern equipment in terms of more modern engined vessels and the changes presumably this equipment will bring in will enhance air quality within the port areas?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: Not that I am aware of, no.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: No, okay.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
But what we can say is we are looking into the East of Albert Plan which is proposing to move the commercial port down to La Collette; 2 areas which will allow -- Jersey is limited with the amount of -- with the size of vessels that we can take. There may well be an environmental benefit as a result of that move.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Are there any conflicts of areas of responsibility between the Harbours and Airport Department and, indeed, any other departments in terms of the facilities that are placed down at La Collette and in terms of harbour overlap?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Any conflicts with other departments? Are you referring to Energy from Waste plants and --
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Well, yes, obliquely. [Laughter]
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I think it is fair to say that facilities or proposed facilities like that clearly will have an impact on the development or future development of the harbour and it is essential, in my opinion, that there is a joined up approach between departments when considering both those future potential developments and indeed any others that are relevant.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Right, okay. The Economic Development Department has responsibility for agriculture and it is not a question that is on your sheet of questions. I have just thought of a few more. In terms of methane emissions from slurry activities for cattle farmers, is the department active in that regard in any respect in terms of enhancing the air quality in that particular area?
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
You do not want to answer this one, do you?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : I cannot answer it.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
You are conflicted and I do not know the answer to that question, I am afraid, so I cannot give you any meaningful comment.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
We do not have responsibility for agriculture. We have shared responsibility for agriculture with Environment and it is the Environment Department that will be setting standards in relation to cows and their emissions.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
All right, yes, I think you have made that --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think you are aware that there are too many cows on the Island but I should not say that because I am conflicted.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
All right, then it is a method of subjective judgment I think, if you like cows.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
There is too much milk being produced, is there not?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Yes. Right, so I think, broadly, I mean, would you agree then finally that your overall point is that, being a supportive department within the Council of Ministers, you are happy to respond to any environmental obligations that the Island may sign itself into within which you would have to comply at some stage, bearing in mind that there may well be some areas that come with an economic cost price and that would probably determine whether or not you have supported in the broadness or not?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Yes. We will be a good corporate partner and we will also help the Environment Department and we will also help where we can make a difference and certainly using instruments such as Regulation of Undertakings, we will ask companies when setting up in Jersey what their future plans are. I am assisting the Environment Minister in putting environmental awards together for business rolling out Eco-Active from being simply a personal individual citizen activity to being a corporate activity; encouraging firms to have travel plans; good recycling standards; to be encouraging building occupation with better air quality use instead of having buildings simply with sealed air conditioning units and using lots of energy. We will help the environment in achieving strategic objectives that the Island has. When I sort of say some negative comment about green lanes, all of our lanes in our countryside are green. They do not need to be. The thing that irritates me with green lanes is their painted and daubed with signage and we are told that they are green lanes. All of our lanes are green, all of our beaches are beautiful and our countryside is something that all tourists can be responsible for -- can enjoy. I do think there is an opportunity for Jersey to carve out a niche in relation to some green tourism and that is why Jersey Tourism is supporting an organisation called Green Tourism, I think; some initiative in the U.K. that we are supporting which is assisting hotels to set about putting in place plans to raise their environmental standards and having all sorts of policies in place which subscribe to the sort of higher standards of green tourism, et cetera. But I just do not like the sort of symbolic gesture of some things. It has to have real substance, in my view.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
I think that is fair but we all know, around the table, that some green lanes are greener than others. Anyway, a final question --
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Some of them are not designated as green lanes which is why I made the point about symbolism.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Absolutely. They are clearly not. Celia.
Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:
Can I return just to the town and the harbour and the amount of deliveries to the harbour or onward transportation into commercial building/shops? Would you support some way of joined up thinking here for the deliveries because, obviously, when vehicles are waiting to deliver and trying to stop in town, the emission side -- there are aspects here of air quality and also this would be a joined up way of getting less vehicles into the town from the harbour.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Well, if it is practical and applicable from a commercial perspective, then it makes obvious sense to support any initiative that is going to help to reduce emissions.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I cannot remember what the statistics are in relation to vehicle emissions but, from memory, I recall that a very significant proportion of vehicle emissions come from white van and white van plus and I have never been afraid personally of introducing a form of M.O.T. (Ministry of Transport) test for all vehicles in Jersey but I would start with commercial vehicles. I do think there are issues concerning vehicle emissions particularly for delivery vehicles and for non-private passenger vehicles.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
The problem is, the older the vehicle, the worse the level of emissions and there are an awful lot of very old vehicles - particularly commercial ones - floating around and still commercially active so, I mean, the M.O.T. concept commercially is one way perhaps in which it could be addressed.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I am a supporter of environmental taxes to achieve objectives and to change behaviour too. I have no fear for -- I have never been a fan of V.R.D. (Vehicle Registration Duty) although it might have had the unintended consequences of not allowing the importation of old vehicles but, at the same time, it has effectively meant that vehicles -- I suspect that an unintended consequence of V.R.D. is that the age profile of vehicles in Jersey has risen. I think one needs to be more thoughtful about the unintended consequences of taxes like V.R.D. I would support the scrapping of V.R.D. and focus on an emission tax on an emission basis.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I mean, the key thing is that any form of environmental tax - should that be a route decided upon - cannot be seen as a cash cow for the Treasury Minister and it has to be clearly targeted at the environment and resolving issues therein and that is the risk of those types of taxes.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I was just going to ask that if you felt that it should be ring fenced as something specific because people would be more inclined or happier if they could -- to see a finite ending to the money rather than just into the general coffers.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I am happy with environmental taxes being ring fenced. The difficult political issue is that it is very difficult for us to put in place environmental taxes when we are busy trying to convince the public that G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) is good for them.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Well, yes, that is the point I was just saying that at least if you had it ring fenced or say to the public: "Well, you know, this is an environmental tax aimed in such " and they can see an ending, a finite ending where it has been put to it, I think people would be more receptive to it rather than thinking: "Would it go into the general pot as such otherwise?"
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean: Agreed.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
In that respect, it is a just a point I am making.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
One final point on that, does that mean that you would be equally as happy to endorse environment taxes across the board? So I am thinking in terms of, you know, carbon dioxide emissions not only produced by white vans or individual private motorists but by ships and by planes as well.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think we can control what is happening on the Island. I am not sure that we have -- I would need to be persuaded that we can have that much influence in relation to decisions which are made by companies that are not based on the Island. Certainly, as far as ships are concerned, I do not and it is -- I do not have the figures in front of me but if you look at the pollution from cars as opposed to ships and aircraft, I think we need to be clear about the proportions of them. Our problem - and particularly the hotspots in town - are in relation to vehicles emissions. I am not aware that there is an issue but I can be told otherwise that there is a particular issue concerning aircraft and ships.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I think, in total, aviation contributes, I believe, less than 2 per cent of Co2 (carbon dioxide) emissions, and in terms of Jersey, it is largely negligible. It does not mean we should not watch it but the ability to implement it is very difficult from the Island's point of view.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Just a thought that has just come that I do not know. Has there been or have you ever had any complaints and suchlike that you had to take action on in the flight path from Gorey to the airport from residents or people in the area?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Noise, yes, but emissions, no.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Noise, yes, but, interestingly, dramatically reduced in recent years and that is inline with the more environmentally friendly and quieter aircraft. I am not aware of any pollution issues from aircraft either departing or arriving.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay, Professor Laxen, do you have anything further?
Professor D. Laxen: No.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Okay, right, well, it looks like we have come to the end of our questions.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I had one other thing that you -- did you ask a question about coal and solid fuel importation on the Island?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
We did on some other sheet, yes.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Have we responded to you on that?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: No.
Right. Solid fuel imports are not monitored by the port authorities. The solid fuel imports now take place via containers and the 4 independent shipping companies, so it is difficult to gauge the total amount of import quantities of solid fuel. However, it is clear that the consumption of coal has declined dramatically. I think it is 5 times lower or estimated to be 5 times lower in 2006 than it was in 1991. The 1991 consumption was 11,000 tons. In 2006, it was estimated to be about 2,500. Of course, this is all contained in the Energy Trends Report and, as far as energy is concerned, I think there are some opportunities for Jersey to reduce its emissions by looking at different forms of energy. You talk about ships coming to the Island. Well, one of the regular arrivals is the fuel boat and the opportunities that present themselves in having an oil pipeline are things that we would actively support and, certainly as far as allocation of scarce land resources, that is another good reason to consider alternative methods of importation.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
I think what we were interested in was to see whether or not there were any statistics from the department that would give us a better indication of the amount of poor quality coal-type fuels coming into the Island and, in particular, those that have a high sulphur content. You do get kind of smokeless fuels these days and we wanted to try and establish, to some degree of accuracy, the extent to which householders have switched from burning poor quality fuels to higher quality fuels and whether or not there was any kind of justification for looking at - in terms of any required legislation - the Clean Air Act for St. Helier or whatever or to have smokeless fuel areas within the St. Helier area in areas that do get temperature inversion and build-up of carbon dioxide and other sulphur issues.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I mean, sulphur dioxide has, historically, been an issue around ports generally but I believe that St. Helier - although it is not regularly monitored - was monitored in 2003 and the air quality was believed to be certainly acceptable at that time. There was a very low level of air pollution certainly from a comparative perspective.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
Yes, I think the general thing that there was on the survey report is that - picking up on the point that was made by Senator Ozouf - because the wind does happen to blow particularly strongly in the winter months when most people are using these fuels, then the proper extent to the levels of pollution that would otherwise occur and are occurring is disguised.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
You are right. It certainly means that we should be alert to the issues for the future.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes, right.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Can I just come back once on the green lane issue, Senator, if I may? It was just when you said about that -- from the advertising because I am sure you are well aware that a lot of the visitors -- the majority of the visitors complain about the excess traffic that there is on the Island and, therefore, that is why they do look for something that is specifically earmarked and such like; the green lanes, so that they know that they -- and would feel far safer on them than they would be on the majority of the other roads and that is one of the reasons -- because I am sure you would agree that one of the main complaints of visitors is that there is so much traffic on the Island.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think there is an issue about traffic but are we any different from anywhere else? Would I support increased -- if you are going to designate green lanes, then I would expect to see there to be a high level of enforcement and until -- if I am wrong, then I stand to be corrected but I am concerned that there has not been enough enforcement on areas that have been designated and are presented in a very -- and I, you know, appreciate the fact that Jersey Tourism does promote it. If you are promoting it, you need to have the necessary backup and that is not to say that there are -- I would want to be in an ideal situation that all our lanes would be green and have, you know --
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Well, yes, I understand what you are saying.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I mean, the cycle networks is something that I think has been -- works very well but they are not only on green lanes. The cycle networks are something that are --
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I think the majority of them are on green lanes and certainly into the countryside.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
I think the cycle track from the west of the Island works very well. I would like to see a cycle network in from the east of the Island and I have been working with 2 Deputies in 2 areas in order to try and achieve that.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
Interestingly, the green lanes and the speed restraints on them does not necessarily make them safer. I have been the subject of bicycles travelling at high speeds in excess and of course they are silent. [Laughter]
The Connétable of St. Mary :
I understand what you are saying. That is an issue with cyclists because that is not what the intention was but, you know, walkers, cyclists and so on, yes. I do not know what the answer is to that one regarding the cyclists.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Speed cameras? Mobile speed cameras?
The Connétable of St. Mary :
For restricting the cyclists, you mean?
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
No, mobile speed cameras for vehicles.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Yes, but for cyclists. I mean, how -- whether one should or should not restrict the cyclist.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
I mean, clearly, you should not because one is trying to encourage --
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Well, that is the point when you say -- you raised the issue about the cyclists.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
No, I was just raising the point about safety.
The Connétable of St. Mary :
Yes, that is right. Yes. No, I agree with you on that.
Deputy A.J.H. Maclean:
You can have other issues that relate to that.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf :
Do you want us to do any more research or ask our officials to carry out any more research on any of these issues?
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
There may be one or 2 extra pieces of information but we will be in touch, so I think, on that note, we will allow you to leave half an hour early.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Good.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel:
All right, and thank you for your contribution and we will be in touch.
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf : Thank you.
Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Thank you.