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STATES OF JERSEY
Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel Employment and Training Opportunities in Jersey Review
MONDAY, 28th JULY 2008
Panel:
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier (Chairman) Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour
Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade
Witnesses:
Mr. I. Crich (Director of Human Resources, States of Jersey) Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Clement
Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier (Chairman):
Welcome to this meeting of the Youth Opportunities and Training Scrutiny Panel. We are here today to examine how the States employment policies fit into the overall employment picture on the Island. So perhaps, Mr. Crich, if you would like to tell us something about your role as the H.R. (human resources) officer of the largest employer on the Island and see where we go from there.
Mr. I. Crich (Director of Human Resources, States of Jersey):
Thanks, Chairman. My role, in response to the first question that was sent in advance, I guess professional lead on H.R. for the States and therefore advisor to the States, Council of Ministers and the States Employment Board on all sorts of H.R. matters, and clearly a leadership managerial role in relation to the States H.R. function, so all the people who are employed in H.R. in the States. My other major role, I guess, in the States is a member of the management board. So that is me, that is my role. Do you want me to go on to some of the other questions that you have asked me in the letter sent or do you want to ?
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I do not know what the simplest way of putting it is. What are the 3 major problems that you have got in terms of recruitment for the States? That should start us off. I like the 3, the top 3.
Mr. I. Crich:
I guess the major issues for us in terms of recruitment overall are skill shortages in certain areas. Those fluctuate depending on circumstances, economic cycles, et cetera, but for the moment with the, until recently, sort of economic upturn then getting people like professionals in finance, law, H.R. and those associated professions is quite difficult. We obviously as an island community have some difficulty in recruiting to certain specialist roles because perhaps it is not reasonable to expect that the population within the Island will be able to sustain those and they are often found in the health field, particularly consultants and nurses, teachers, and you will be aware of the way that they arrive on the Island through (j) cats, we employ them for things like that. We do not generally have too much difficulty at the moment recruiting other categories of staff. I think in some circumstances the number of applications that we would get is quite small but usually we are able to make an appointment from most of the adverts that we would run. Occasionally we get into some difficulties there and we might have to repeat adverts 1 or 2, 3 times even, but overall we are not struggling too badly to get successful candidates for roles. The most recent case, I guess, which caused a bit of interest in the press, was the one around secretaries, personal assistants. We advertised recently without the 5-year rule, which you may have seen. That was an extraordinary case where we tried 2 or 3 times to recruit for a particular job, using the locally-qualified criteria, and at the end of the day we did not manage to do so. So, it was a difficult choice at that time - which is what you are faced with - of either leaving the role vacant, and in this case the Minister and the chief officer being unsupported, or relaxing the rules on that one occasion. We have a fairly strict regime about when we do that. The chief officer concerned and myself have to give permission for that to happen. That is sort of an overall picture, I guess, of the recruitment position.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
The first area you started on, skill shortages and being unable to recruit in fairly does that come down to competition with the finance sector, effectively, if there are finance specialists?
Mr. I. Crich:
On the finance ones, certainly, it does. That said, it also links into my second answer which is that we are still recruiting, we are still managing to get people. It is tight, we tend to get more turnover at times like this when people are leaving us to go to the finance industry. It is very cyclical with the finance function. When there is a downturn in the finance sector people come back to the States, they are looking to us an employer because of things like perceived security, pension arrangements, et cetera. But that said, even in the upturn at the moment, we have still managed to recruit. We have not got to the position where we have not recruited. It has been quite good.
Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Saviour :
It just tends to take longer so you have to go out to the market more times to get a number of applicants because you have always got to be conscious that you cannot take the one applicant that might apply. In Treasury it has taken a number of goes to try and get someone that is going to be able to prepare gap accounts, which is a critical policy direction of the States. So, while the finance sector is buoyant and still buoyant, you are fighting against that and it just takes longer to recruit the quality that you are looking for.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Are you susceptible to R.U.D.L. (Regulation of Undertakings and Development) controls as private business is?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
This is an area where political and officer are going to wrestle because some of the things are policy that I have been trying and the States Employment Board have been trying to drive forward and some of the things are very much day-to-day operational. Technically, the States is not under the R.U.D.L. law but I think it was in 1999 they took a decision that they would try as far as possible to comply with the same requirements as a private sector company with regard to R.U.D.L., i.e. controlling how many local and non-local employees they have got.
Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade :
Is that done through E.D. (Economic Development)? Do you send returns into E.D.?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
No, there is no actual return like that but basically what happens is the centralised H.R. function, when they are helping the departments do their recruitment, the first line is, as you would see with a private company, they put an advert in that says you have got to be locally qualified, i.e. the 5 years. So they might not say under R.U.D.L. but they say you have got to have been resident for the 5 years, exactly the same as a private company would for R.U.D.L.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So that goes back to your point earlier about the secretary, the special exemption.
Mr. I. Crich:
If I just add to that, the difference between ourselves and private enterprise would be that the private firm usually would have some allowance of non-locally qualified people they could employ and they would be able to operate up to that limit. There are no allowances or limits set for the States. So the prime move is always to recruit locally, so very much try and recruit locally. We do not have a cap up to which we can go in terms of non-locally qualified and that is the difference.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It is probably worth saying, and I guess you are going to come on to it, in the private sector, okay, you have got your R.U.D.L., you have got your housing law, so the States has got this aim to comply with R.U.D.L. and also it requires (j)s for the specialist skills that Ian was talking about earlier. Apart from that, I think I am right - Ian will correct me - Health and Education, they have more flexibility on the (j)s that they are allowed because of the very nature of the need to import the skills. All the other departments have to go to the Housing Minister on a case-by-case basis for their (j)s, just the same as a private company would, but there is that flexibility for Health and Education.
Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour :
I wonder, Ian, if you could explain to us your role within the States on employment issues. Are you conflicted sometimes with the population policy and employment of people? How does that sit together?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I am here today - obviously you had invited the Chief Minister, I think, and he was unable to make it - because I am Chair of the Manual Workers Joint Council and in that role I attend the States Employment Board, although I am not one of the members that vote. Am I conflicted with regard to that? I think there has been a little bit of confusion in some people's minds about exactly what the Migration Advisory Group (M.A.G.) does. It does not make decisions under regulation law and under housing law. It might give a steer if the Minister requests it but the Minister is the person that makes the decision under both those laws. So, I have not been present at a Migration Advisory Group where well, have I? No, I have been present but I have not been party to the decision when a department has requested. In my recollection of the times that I have been there, I think we have had 2 departmental requests for (j)s.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Just to be clear on that, you will, in general terms, be promoting States employment policies first rather than anything else?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Well, in respect of do not forget the (j)s, they come directly from the departments. So, I do not think there is a conflict there between the M.A.G. and the States Employment Board (S.E.B.) because it is being driven by the individual department.
Deputy A. Breckon:
But if there was, say, a States human resource training course, you would highlight issues that like if there were things that came up?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I have this thing, as you will know from the succession planning report that we produced and Ian was involved in early in the year, that we should always be aiming to allow employment to local people and that should be our absolute priority and, secondly, we should be equipping the people that we want employed to be able to move through our ranks and go through that. So I suppose that is always my stance, whether I am at S.E.B. or whether I am being asked an opinion at Migration Advisory Group.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Continuing that parallel, the equivalence with the private sector, how successful are we at training up, as a trainer, as the biggest employer on the Island? How good are we at training up our people to succeed?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Well, I think we are getting better. You have probably been looking at this document, Succession Planning in the States. I think that is going to be a big driver to help us do that. T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services) have started with apprentices; we have got the nurse cadet scheme; we have Treasury and Resources training accountants. Ian will know perhaps more of the history than me but I think we are starting down getting somewhere where we should be going. We are not there yet, I do not believe. I think we have probably got 3 T.T.S. apprenticeships taking place now. The latest figures I have seen, they would like at least 4 more but they feel they do not have the funding. My understanding is when that scheme was stopped, and I cannot tell you when it was stopped, they probably had about 10 and I suspect that they themselves would like to get back to that sort of level.
Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier :
You may have been involved longer or know the history better. As you say, the States are on and off. I remember when my he is now well qualified, 28, but it was the last year they were taking on apprentices for electrician, stonemasons and I think it might have been plumbers. There were 3 skills and you were not guaranteed a job at the end of it but you were employed by the States, you were put into different departments, you had a day release, and then that all stopped. So are we not being consistent enough? Are we turning the tap on and off?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
To be honest, we probably are but I cannot account for my predecessors or the predecessors at the States Employment Board but I think we should be on, basically.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
We do appear to be reinventing the wheel. We used to be a major trainer, apprenticeships, student nurses. Okay, it is an expensive business to train up your own nurses but nonetheless we used to do it and then we stopped. Lo and behold, whatever it is, must have been stopped in my time in teaching I think, almost 15 years later and here we are again training properly and committing a resource to do that.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
If I talk about nurses, because it is perhaps something I know a little bit about but then you are going to say I am conflicted because my wife is one. I think probably one of the drivers with stopping training nurses locally was there was a belief 5, 6 years ago that nurses were all going to have to have degrees and that is the way nursing was going and therefore you had to go the U.K. (United Kingdom) to do your degree. When Dionne did hers it was a 4-year course. They have now come back down to 3 and the profession itself is saying: "Perhaps we do not need to have all nurses with a degree." Places like the Radcliffe in Oxford, they only used to employ degree nurses and I think perhaps they have relooked at that locally and said: "Well, if you do not need nurses with a degree we should start again" and there are benefits in that.
Deputy A. Breckon:
How much would you say that young people in particular are aware of the range of opportunities within employment in the States?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I suspect it is a similar answer that I would give wearing a finance hat. They are not as aware as what we would like them to be. I do not know whether Ian does liaise with Education and they go into schools or not. Perhaps they do more than the finance industry.
Mr. I. Crich:
I do not think they do enough of it, in my experience. I think there is something about general knowledge in the community about what the States does that would suggest to me that young people in Jersey will probably have a better idea about what the roles and jobs are within the States as a provider than they might do in a bigger jurisdiction because they are that much further remote from them. In the States it is very much what we do, you people do as Members, what we do as officers, is very much in people's consciousness, I think, here. So I think it is more likely they would be. When there are large careers events we attend those. In fact, we attend en masse. Most departments are there with stands and do quite a lot of careers stuff. Whether we do enough of that I guess is a question and it is usually about resource constraints, about whether or not we have got the time to get out there and do it. We will probably touch on this later on. All our roles, all our jobs, are always advertised in the Jersey Evening Post (J.E.P.) because we know the J.E.P. has got a very wide readership. You cannot look at that and not understand what the roles are in the States. Most of the first 4 pages in the J.E.P. are usually about what the State is or is not doing. There is quite a lot of publicity around the jobs and occupations within the States. I am not saying young people will flock out and buy the J.E.P. but so we are in a privileged position of a general understanding about what the States do and therefore the roles within it but we could probably do more.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think your function, does it unify all the H.R. facets of the States? Clearly that is the object but do you think you have had success in doing that?
Mr. I. Crich:
I think we are on the way, certainly. We have certainly made major strides. One thing you have to remember is that, I am sure you remember, 2006, 1st January, the States became one employer. So the position is that we had 10 or more different employers, and previously the employers were all the committees and what have you, and with the Employment (Jersey) Law the States of Jersey became a single employer from 1st January 2006. Therefore it is important that employment policies are applied in a standardised way and an equitable way across the whole organisation. That was one of the drivers of bringing the functions together to start to get some consistency around the application of those policies. All the H.R. people now report through lines to me. It enables us to do standard things in terms of policies and procedures and professional practice, particularly in relation to H.R. We are introducing a new H.R. information system which is linked to payroll, which is linked to the finance system, so the whole quality of management information, which is mainly for managers to use in terms of managing their people, has and will improve even further as a result of bringing the function together. It has enabled us to concentrate on areas of activity where they were very much spread before. You have got specialists doing certain things. Going back to Deputy Southern 's question about learning and development, we have really been able to concentrate some resources into thinking about that and things like succession planning which probably were not taken too seriously before or as seriously as they should have been centrally. We have got a very specialist area looking at employee relations issues, our relationship with trade unions, et cetera, which works very well. Pensions is a central issue. It frees the rest of the H.R. community to do what they are supposed to do, which is support managers and support employees out in the businesses. So they are free from the administration tasks that they previously did, they have been brought together in one place, and they get specialist advice around some of the other areas, employee relations, learning and development. They means they can get on and support managers and staff with their business.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Jersey is made up of a vast number of small businesses, under 10s, who have clearly battled with larger companies, and the States in particular, in salaries and staff levels. You indicated earlier on that you had difficulty perhaps in recruitment at the top end of law and you are perhaps competing with the finance industry. How do you see the States role versus the smaller employers within the Island in terms of setting a lead on salaries? Do you think the States salaries are perhaps too high at that level? The general feedback from industry is that: "Well, we cannot compete with the States because they pay too much."
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It is a difficult question because I suspect it is not necessarily just driven by trying to group together all small businesses and saying they cannot compete. I suspect different business will compete better than others, dependent on what market they are in, what type of employee they are looking for or what skills they are looking for in an employee. I suppose if you want to ask the question: "Do the States pay too much?" you could look at the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report, you could look at how the States try to benchmark their salaries with both the private sector in Jersey and the public sector in the U.K. I think it is something that the States Employment Board is mindful of. I am not sure exactly, other than being mindful of it. The States has jobs which it needs to fill, as well as everybody else in the job market.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think the finance industry in fact lifts the whole salary structure in the Island perhaps higher than it would be if we did not have a finance industry?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Is it the finance industry's salary structure that is doing that or is it the fact that you have got a dominant industry which is having effects on the cost of living, et cetera, which in turn is affecting the salaries of people who are employed not in the finance industry? I am not sure.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Is there is an effect on recruitment and retention if you have got finance that is blowing more hot than cold, perhaps?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
If you look at the finance sector itself, when the economy is buoyant those very companies, banks, trust companies, themselves struggle to retain their employees because there is always the ability to move on for a slightly greater salary.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Would that reflect, say, on maybe middle management roles across the States sector and even things like police officers and prison officers where the economy is buoyant? Something you touched on before, Ian, is that perhaps people might look for shelter if there is a sign of dark clouds and come for the safety and security perhaps of the States. Is there anything statistically that backs that up?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It is back to where we started, is it not? I know that in Treasury it is more difficult when the economy is buoyant and people do want to move on because they have got a skill which is transferable.
Mr. I. Crich:
I do not think it maps across much further than that though.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I was going to say I have no idea with police or prison.
Mr. I. Crich:
My take is I am not sure. Yes, those professions allied to finance particularly and some of those around the periphery I think it has an effect, it has a bit of tidal effect. The rest, as part answer to your question, which is the States is such a broad organisation, there is every profession under the sun, as you well know, and a lot of those are not replicated out necessarily in the community and the only place you will get a job doing X is in the States. So the competition argument does not necessarily stack up in those circumstances. I think there is a general read across often. I think that is what happens. You might have a pay rate in one area and people look for comparability with that within the States, even though - I will just use this as an example so do not treat it as a real one - what have air traffic controllers got to do with prison officers? They are miles apart but there will be some perceived need to try and level out pay rates. Now, whether that is lifted or suppressed by the dominant industry other than the States I do not know.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Can I just go back to apprenticeships. You mentioned, I think, T.T.S. possibly have 3 and they are looking for funding for 4 more and maybe even had 10 before. I do not know if you are aware what funding each department puts into things such as apprenticeship schemes. If they had 10 before it must have meant they had funding previously and I am not sure where that came from. Does it come in turn from the States or within the departments? Has there been a re-emphasis on funding apprenticeships which did not occur before?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I cannot say. I have not got the figures in front of me. My suspicion would be that probably it was part of the fundamental spending review. Perhaps some of the politicians who have been in the job for longer than me would know that but I suspect that is what would have been the case. So they would have given up that funding. Maybe Geoff would know.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
There are 2 expenses that get chopped first. One is maintenance, chop that, just going on the fabric of the building. The second one is training. The 2 classic areas in any business that come for the chop first.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
So there is no influence from your department as to what others do with regard to training in terms of funding?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
With regard to funding and not I cannot answer that question but I think with regard to the States Employment Board they are very much driving forward these policies of training, management, succession planning. You then start to look at the Skills Executive and the role that it will have as well. So, in regard to driving forward policy, yes, but with regard to each individual department's bids for money for that I think you would probably need to speak to the individual departments.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I am just trying to probe a bit deeper on this one because clearly as a large employer it is incumbent on the States to make a lead. Do you think there ought to be some mandatory requirement from within States departments to put a proportion of H.R. funding into training?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
That is a political question, is it not? Would I like to see that? Is that what you are asking me?
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Yes.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think clearly I would, yes. I think you can see from the fact that I only recently tried to get more funding for training opportunities for those in the Island at large with learning difficulties.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think it is achievable, though?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
That is another issue which ultimately is part of the States approving business plan and saying to departments: "We think you should reprioritise money on training."
Deputy J.A. Martin:
We have just had Mary Curtis who was saying about the Skills Executive and bringing everyone together: "Are you inventing some other big machine that is going to cost a lot of money with people employed in it but not going to help?" She did not say it that way, I am reading between the lines. It worries us. What involvement do we as a big, big employer, and it is going to be States run with 3 ministries coming together -- could there be money in it for more training, more apprenticeships, or is going to be more 2 tiers and management led and then a few people on the ground working with the kids?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
You have had the Social Security Minister and I understand you are potentially --
Deputy J.A. Martin:
We have had 3 different versions; we want to know what your version is. It is not a trick question, honestly.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Shall I just say my understanding is that it will be providing and pushing forward apprenticeships, yes. Whether that is what you have been told earlier in the day, I do not know.
Deputy J.A. Martin: We have had 3 versions.
Mr. I. Crich:
I can add to that slightly. Just referring back to the previous question, I do not have the financial figures for you but I would not want you to get the impression that the States as an employer does not invest in training. It invests heavily in training, both corporately, a lot of stuff that my people run corporately, but also in each business area in each department there is quite a significant investment in training but that is about training people who are already here. I think probably one of the points you are looking at today is what about the people who we need to grow out in the community to come in and work for the States and elsewhere within the Island. I will give you an example of where we did do something and we stopped, which was we talked earlier about the inability to appoint secretaries and P.A.s (personal assistants) or we get people but it is difficult. There used to be a secretary training scheme which was another one of these which, before I came, got lost through a fundamental spending review cut. That is the sort of thing - coming back to Deputy Martin's question - that I would expect to see the Skills Executive wanting to understand from employers and when I say that I would want an input to that as representing the largest employer of the sort of things I would expect them to be doing. Certainly if they were saying to me: "Where are your skills shortages as the employer, States of Jersey?" I would be saying secretaries, P.A.s, apprentices, et cetera, et cetera. So I would expect to have a voice as an employer; not as a member of the government but as an employer.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
It has taken 3 years to get where we are and it is still a bit confusing but how much input have you had in this setting up? They have told us they have talked to unions, business, all representatives, so us being the biggest and you being the head
Mr. I. Crich:
My structure one down is that there is a senior H.R. manager looks after each department - some manage more than one department, obviously - and each of those have been consulted about skill shortages for that department area. So that has sort of gone into the early mix. I would expect that dialogue to (a) continue and (b) be fairly regular. Forget the machinery of running it for a minute but as an employer we want our share of the cake in terms of the outcomes and outputs from that.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
As Ian is fully aware, we are operating under a migration policy that says we have got 2 per cent at least economic growth off the back of 1 per cent job growth, which approximately is 500 jobs a year, and we are told that we should be balancing jobs for the local market with the need for migrant labour. For example, the list of people we should be encouraging, maximising the return from, I have got here on the list: increased numbers of school leavers, increased number of returning graduates, number of economically active women, redirecting the unemployed, increasing the numbers of those with a disability in the workforce, increasing numbers of the elderly in the workforce. How well are we setting the example as a States employer in any of those areas of making sure that we are getting people back into the workforce from the local workforce?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Ian will probably know more than me but if I just cover a couple of those areas and he can pick up. We are encouraging women back to work by the proliferation, if I can use that word, of part-time working, trying to be flexible with the hours that they can work. One that is close to my heart that we are trying to do but - Ian will not like this - we are not going as far as I believe that we should and that is people with disabilities and learning difficulties. The Council of Ministers did agree that the departments should go back to their departments and employ, I think they said, double the number. We are started there but we have still got more work to go on that one. I think that is a great area. There are lots of people out there like that who can do part of 2 or 3 different jobs and it is a matter of us an employer being flexible.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
That was going to be one of my questions to the States because I do not seem to find it when people are looking. How flexible are we as a States employer for women with children, holidays, the child is sick, they are not sick? People lie all the time that they are ill because their child is. I have not seen it across the years that we are getting much better at it. Tell me if I am wrong. I hope we are.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think we are getting better at it. I am aware of a lot more part-time female workers.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
Part-time is not flexible, Ian. Flexible is something like: "I cannot come in this morning." We are 24/7 now, we are a computer-based -- excuse me, I come in here Sundays if I need to and I can because I am being flexible with myself. Flexible and part-time are totally 2 different things and that is where I have been confused.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
They are and they are not. There are some things with flexibility that when you are offering a public service it is more difficult to be flexible in all areas that you are working because you have to have your doors open for people on the telephones 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. to deal with the issues or 8.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m..
Deputy J.A. Martin:
Which is totally -- 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. is not flexible.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
No, that is what I am saying. Sometimes when you are offering a public service it is more difficult to be flexible in the way that you are saying than perhaps you can be in an office where, providing the work gets done, it could be done at 9.00 or 10.00 at night.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
Going back even further, the 9.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m. one-stop shops are not flexible, whereas if you could get someone to work from 4.00 p.m. to 7.00 p.m., which would suit them, the husband comes home, or the manual worker, at 4.00 p.m. and the wife comes in at 7.00 p.m. You are manning your one-stop shops with people that can work flexible hours and flexible opening times.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think we are saying the same thing.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
It is something we are very slow at developing.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Perhaps Ian knows more of the details.
Mr. I. Crich:
I think we are getting a lot better at it. It is always bad to use an example of your own particular area. However, my workforce in H.R. is predominantly female and I do not know the percentage but a very large percentage of those work what I would consider to be flexibly. So they have arranged with their boss or me to work X number of weeks per year in a sort of annualised hours way or work term-time only or work variable hours or have agreed the particular working hours that suit them. I am not saying that is in place right across the States, because it is not, but the practice is growing. I do think there are difficulties in some areas where you are operating 24/7 stuff and I think you do have fixed shifts and things like that, it is difficult to do in certain areas. But I think the whole business of managers managing people by outcomes as opposed to seeing them sat in front of them, for a better description, is in fact growing. So we are investing a massive amount at the minute, as you know if you read the succession planning paper, in management leadership development and a lot of the thrust of that is about people management, it is about managing people in a more modern and sort of fresher way really, rather than just expect people to be in the office this hour to that hour. So I think it is coming. It may not be as fast as some people might want it but it is coming.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Do you think employment law sometimes restricts the sort of flexibility you can offer?
Mr. I. Crich:
No, not really, to be honest.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It should be the reverse.
Mr. I. Crich:
Yes. The other thing I thought of as an example in one of the categories, in terms of returning graduates, there is quite a lot of work going on through Education, Sport and Culture about tracking graduates. In my own H.R. team we do quite a bit of work on keeping in contact with Jersey graduates while they are away in terms of job vacancies that are coming up. We have had for the last 3 years, as you will be aware, a reasonably successful intern scheme where Jersey students are returning and working in the States during their summer vacation. That is yet to flow through into people coming back and getting jobs with us but that is the plan. There has been some 40-odd Jersey students come back and worked with us during the summer, and that is about getting a hook into them to try and bring them back. So there are things there. I think the issue about the ageing population, the ageing workforce, is something that would be interesting to give to the politicians to consider as that goes forward. I think in other jurisdictions people are already starting to think about, where they have got things like age discrimination laws, sort of less rigidity around the age of 65 and what have you in terms of retirement. If we are going to keep people in the economically active workforce we are going to have look at things like retirement ages and pension arrangements and things like that that go with it. But clearly there are broader issues and I will shut up at that.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Training off-Island is becoming more and more expensive. Do any of the States departments offer any bursaries in specified areas where we are drawing on graduates to fill posts? How do we provide for that?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I am not sure that centrally they do but do Education not have some trusts that they use for that purpose? I have a feeling that they do but I cannot tell you for certain. You might be able to check.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
They have a couple but they are very limited.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Training off-Island is one of those issues that really comes to the fore when you are talking about senior recruitment within the States because in some particular roles you want people to have been trained off-Island because then they have got a broad base of skills. Some other roles, you look down at the harbour some of the roles they need, it is not that you want them, it is that they absolutely have to in order to have gained the qualification that you then require. Coming back to this succession planning document, that is what is trying to be addressed because if we are not able, as an employer, to send our people for periods of employment abroad then we get thrown back to this idea that we have always got to recruit people from abroad for those particular jobs that they need to have experience in. Somewhere there must be a happy medium where we are encouraging or sending our people for terms of employment overseas so that they can come back and bring that experience that we require.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
Do we do any sort of yearly swaps or something? I know it sounds very simple but, as you say, if somebody cannot get trained down the harbour, there are harbours in Portsmouth and Southampton and maybe for 2 years they go over and we work -- I do not know if there is anyone you work with directly but I have heard of these schemes.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Yes. Ian is just telling me that at the Fire and Police Department they do but this is an area that we need to increase and that is part of what this document --
Mr. I. Crich:
An evident barrier is people's willingness and ability to relocate for a period.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
When they get to a certain age.
Mr. I. Crich:
You will be aware, reading the succession planning document, around our new future leaders programme which is preparing the next group to come up and be in a great position to apply for the chief officer jobs so they do not have to have lots of imports like me coming in to fill these jobs. It is a 2-year programme, they are well into the first year now, and part of the second year - and we really have not designed it yet - is to get some off-Island secondment period of employment somewhere else. One of the criticisms, valid or otherwise, of local candidates for the most senior jobs is that they lack that breadth that people appear to bring with them from the U.K. I am not saying a 3-month or a 6-month secondment to (fill in the gap) Westminster or somewhere would deliver that but it is going to give a broader perspective for people. So we are looking at that, particularly in terms of the future leaders programme.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
We have had many discussions about this. It is not going to deliver it but it is going to go some way, and hopefully a long way, to getting that person on to this first among equals levels that is required to compete.
Mr. I. Crich:
I should mention just while we are on that, if I may. You asked me another question earlier in the documentation around how we expose the jobs in Jersey to the Jersey public and are people aware of jobs. It is just worth mentioning our relationship with the Appointments Commission who have a code by which we do all our recruitment and that requires us to open up all jobs to competition. Our interpretation of opening all jobs is to place them all in the J.E.P., and they all go in the J.E.P. and on the website. So even where we invest in people already in the States by way of development and succession planning and preparing them, that can only be to the point where they are then ready to compete with other people because the Appointments Committee has ruled, quite rightly so, that everything should be open to competition to give other people within the Island the opportunity to apply.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
There are some States jobs that do not, what is called an exception.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
I thought you were saying web and Appointments Commission, the last one who was employed at web not on the website. I know what web you are talking about. With some exceptions. Is that one?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
There are some exceptions but those exceptions, again, have to be approved by the chief officer of the department and centrally by Ian.
Mr. I. Crich:
All the exceptions that we seek from the code we refer to the Appointments Commission as well.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
That is right, so that they audit them.
Mr. I. Crich:
Chief officers are able to seek exemption from the code themselves up to a certain level and only for senior appointments have got to get permission. Our practice is that we refer everything to the commission just to get that independent view that what we are doing is reasonable in the circumstances.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
You can see the exemptions. Basically, they are on the Appointments Commission code and they comply with that. But, again, some of that is about trying to get your own local people to compete. If you are giving somebody a succession track, you have to some extent, and it is a very difficult, delicate route to follow but you have to have those positions open for them to move into otherwise there is no succession factor.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Can I ask you a question; how much across the board do you need because, give you an example, if you think of succession planning and you think of a job, and you think of a primary schoolteacher; we had shortages and we brought people in, and now we have got more people qualified than we need, so if you move that on 3 and 5 years, I mean, how confident are you that you can identify areas of the economy that we need to sort of fill now, if you know what I mean, have you got that sort of ...
Mr. I. Crich:
It is not a fine art. Sorry, it is not a science. It is more of an art and to me you can get it about as right you can. The way to get it absolutely wrong is not to do it at all. I think organisations I have worked for in the past have not paid much attention to succession planning at all. Really, it is only just good business sense. It is only about trying to predict what the position might be in 5 years, some very obvious stuff around retirement rates and turnover rates and things like that. No, you cannot second guess everything that might happen but you can put yourself in a better position for the -- you can do a series of what ifs and this succession planning document says that we are going to get that much more into the normal business of the business planning process. The States are pretty good at business planning now, particularly in relation to its resource, say, in terms of financial resourcing. It is not yet quite as proficient in terms of the other resources like the people that it needs, and that is where we are going to be embedding that much more into that business planning process.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
How sort of far ahead -- our adviser, unfortunately he had to leave. He was here all morning but said - I cannot remember the name of it - but they have gone 20 years and they know they have got a lot of work to do in the U.K.
Deputy A. Breckon:
British Gas, I think it is.
Deputy J.A. Martin:
This was a U.K. Government thing, not what he had done, like looking at skills across ... obviously the big one would be the caring professions for the -- you know, you are never going to get away from that. But how far is your succession? Is it like 5, 10, 15 years?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
There has been a succession planning document in the States which has not been universally --
Deputy J.A. Martin: Got out the door.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think that is the kind way to say it. It has not been universally adopted. But our plan really is looking at the next 5 years. But you are absolutely right, it needs to be developed further. I hope that it is a starting piece of work rather than an ending one.
Mr. I. Crich:
I think it needs to become something which is like business as usual. It is a 5 year but you do it every year, so you refresh it. So it is a rolling 5 year programme. You can and should, I think, on a macro scale get into the longer picture. Things like the 2035 document, that sort of thing. You really should be looking at things like that. Those more strategic documents, looking at them and then planning backwards from that. But if we get over the next 3 or 4 years into the habit of properly manpower planning and succession planning for a rolling 5 year programme, it will have made a difference.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Can I ask you, Ian, in your experience at personnel, is it a trend, if you like, to buy into the skills rather than train for it. Is that a general industry trait, would you say?
Mr. I. Crich:
I would not necessarily say that it was. I think someone always has been. I think in bigger jurisdictions, which is where I came from, I think there is a habit to recruit from like organisations --
Deputy A. Breckon: Big enough to get it?
Mr. I. Crich:
Yes. So I think you get people organisation hopping and I think that is understood. I think there is a general training of, say, social workers, for example, with an expectation that social workers will move round different local authorities gaining experience and everybody is doing it. As long as everybody is doing their investment at the base level that is okay. I do not think we have got that here.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
Can I just pick up on that? The trouble is a lot of these people we need to pick from the U.K., which has been done as the sort of natural place. We are not investing anything over there. If you think of ... Judy made a reference to Harbours earlier on, now the situation down there is that you need half a dozen qualified certificated mariners for those jobs. Now those are coming originally from establishments in the U.K. Many large companies fund those places. They have scholarships. Should we be funding a scholarship, a bursary, in an establishment like that, same as there would be no doubt for other spheres, social workers, what have you. Should the States be, perhaps, looking towards putting funding out there to be part of the game?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It is a difficult question that because I am trying to think, and you know more about Harbours and boating issues than I do.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : Any specialised job really.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
If you look at the pilot job, it was my understanding that a pilot, to be a qualified pilot or suitable to come and do a job in Jersey, you would have to have done 10 years, I think they said, in open water, which is exactly what you are saying. Companies are having to employ people for that 10 years. Now, is that something -- does Government want to go to that extent, and that is an issue I do not think I satisfied in my own mind and yet I most definitely do think that we should be having, if we say shorter term, the apprenticeship, the training, the accountants, that sort of thing, and that, I think, we should be involved in. I think it just comes to the point where it is 10 years, somebody is having to be employed by another company because that is the company that has got the boats at the sea, I think you get into a difficult area that probably I would not, on balance, what to see us getting into. But equally there are other areas, as we just said, where we should be where that person can be employed by us but can go and have a time of secondment elsewhere or can be trained by an external trainer to do a professional qualification.
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
What you are saying is that it should be linked to the individual rather than the job? I am suggesting perhaps the funding should be linked to the job in cases where it cannot be linked to an individual. Do you consider there is mileage in going down that route?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
You say it is linked to the individual, and I suppose to some extent it is, but what you are doing is filling a job. So it is the job requirement that is driving the linking with the individual to come back and do that job.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : The job, of course, is ongoing.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
From time to time, yes. If you are going to avoid importing that particular skill there is a cost. Now, just in the same way earlier we were suggesting that what is the financial incentive to an employer to take on an apprentice then you make it a financial reward in there.
Mr. I. Crich: That is right:
Deputy G.P. Southern :
Similar on an individual level, if you know that you want X expertise coming in and you really would like to do some home-based, you put a bursary in there and you try and ensure that you are going to get those people back.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
There is a little bit of maybe smart thinking and I am just thinking, as we go here ... There is a little bit of smart thinking in that for a lot of -- how many jobs that we have as a Government and on-Island perhaps people have gone away, done a degree and they might be doing that job elsewhere and there might be people on-Island that know of that individual and it is, sort of, linking that up, and that individual might consider at some time in the future moving back to Jersey, and it is being smart like that and trying not necessarily having a list because ... but almost keeping open those contacts, and some of this comes down to the work that Education are doing and E.D.D. (Economic Development Department) are doing about knowing where your graduates are and what they are up, and at some point in the future going: "Ah, yes, such-and- such a person did this, let us approach them, see if they have got 20 years experience, do they want to come back now and do this job?"
Deputy G.P. Southern :
But there is also the question on a slightly different level, rather than your graduates - yes, the need to keep in touch with your graduate - what about your candidates who fail to get a particular job but you know that within 6 months there is going to be something similar. How good are you, do you think, at keeping contact with people like that?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It is something that Ian and I have discussed and they have been discussing it at a departmental level as well. Perhaps it is something that could be used for the more generic jobs that you know you have got a number of jobs like that. I am not sure if Ian has yet, but he is minded to contact and just discuss the issue with Data Protection, because you have got to think about -- you can ask the person when you are sending your application form out they can tick a box: "Would you like details to be kept on file for a year?" for example, or 2 years, for a similar job that comes up. It is just a matter of maybe ticking that one off and seeing which jobs it would perhaps work for. But I think it is fair to say it is at an early stage.
Mr. I. Crich:
There are D.P. (Data Protection) issues but in been speaking to the commissioner, they are not insurmountable.
Deputy G.P. Southern : They are not insurmountable?
Mr. I. Crich:
There are issues around the length of time that he keeps them. The data that you have got on somebody in terms of their application or something will have changed after about 6 months anyway and it might be out of date. We already, where we have recruited just somebody quite recently - seem to go back to the secretary - the example I gave earlier, where we recruited somebody quite recently and then another similar job like that comes up reasonably quickly, and we say usually within 2 or 3 months, then we do go back to the field of - if there was one - a field of candidates before and contact those who came close to getting the job and do it that way. So we are doing that but we are conscious that in terms of the use of the information we have got to be careful about data protection.
The Connétable of St. Brelade : That is common sense, is it not?
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I am aware that we are hitting 5.00 p.m. but just a final from me, probably - I always say final question and it turns out to be 6. But this time I will keep it brief. In terms of recruiting (j) cats, I am hearing for specialist, so the doctors and the teachers, I am hearing word that it is becoming more difficult because essentially of our house prices, and that a number -- I have heard it certainly a specialist doctor, surgeon, saying it is touch and go because: "I can get a decent house where I come from or anywhere in the U.K. for half the price, whatever it is, a £750,000 commitment to have the house at the standard I wish over here." Similarly teachers are increasingly taking one look, looking at house prices and going: "Not coming. Not interested." Have you noticed any difficulties in recruitment in that sense with (j) cats?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
It has not come through as a policy issue. I do not know if Ian has any ...
Mr. I. Crich:
Not yet. But, I mean, anecdotally I have heard one or 2 stories too where people, whereas before it was not a consideration it is now becoming, not a deciding factor, but something they are a bit more aware of as they are making the decision. It has not yet prevented anybody coming. But I think there is an issue around ... people come to Jersey for a range of reasons and they offset issues like that against those other reasons, in terms of conversations I have had with people who come to the Island. But it is becoming increasingly an issue, yes.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
In terms of the general, sort of, attitude that Jersey is a lovely place, of course, people want to come here. I think there is becoming an issue with not when they look at our house prices they might not.
Mr. I. Crich:
It has not affected recruitment yet, but it may be something that we will probably have to have a look at.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Could I ask you to comment, I understand if you would not want to, about the Skills Executive and the influence or the difference it might make to States employment? Where do you see it sitting in what it might do?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think really just along the lines that Ian outlined earlier where one of their driving forces is that what employers on the Island want, is my understanding. That is why I think the input is that it should be Ian and his departmental H.R. people who are giving that input from the States perspective, and it goes back to the issues that Ian - to Geoff's very first question about the 3 issues --
Deputy A. Breckon:
Best policy and practice, and things like that?
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
Yes, that what are the issues that are facing H.R. at the moment? Those issues should be being fed in because the States are a major employer.
Deputy A. Breckon:
The Skills Executive, could you see in your linking to that and they might be able to assist you in delivering some of that then?
Mr. I. Crich:
Very much so. To put it in context - I will just fill you with some figures - we probably employ in the States about a seventh of the Island's workforce. That is one in 7, that is an interesting statistic. Now, for me, it would not be appropriate if the Skills Executive did not take account of the needs of a seventh of the workforce, so I would expect that. I would expect some response in terms of the products that they intend delivering, however that comes out, to be relevant and appropriate to us as an employer.
Deputy A. Breckon:
Look at your practice and policies as well.
Mr. I. Crich: Why not?
The Connétable of St. Brelade :
I think I am right in saying it goes the other way round; they will be delivering what you want them to.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
That is how it is supposed be driven.
Mr. I. Crich:
Yes, very much so. I agree.
Deputy G.P. Southern :
I think we have finished up here. Is there anything you came determined to say that you have not said? Now is your chance. Do you think we covered the issues? Thanks.
Deputy I.J. Gorst :
I think we have, there is nothing else, no. Thank you.