Waste Plant - Mr D Monier - Transcript - 21 February 2008

STATES OF JERSEY

Environment Scrutiny Panel Waste Plant Review

THURSDAY, 21st FEBRUARY 2008

Panel:

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman) Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier

Deputy C.J. Scott Warr ant of St. Saviour

Witnesses: Mr. D. Monier

Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour (Chairman):

If everybody is ready we can start. I have to read you the notice for witnesses that are not States Members. "It is important that you fully understand the conditions under which you are appearing at this hearing. The proceedings of the panel are covered by parliamentary privilege through Article 34 of the States of Jersey Law 2005 and the States of Jersey Powers and Privileges and Immunities Scrutiny Panel, P.A.C. (Public Accounts Committee) and P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) Jersey Regulations 2006. Witnesses are protected from being sued or prosecuted for anything said during hearings, unless they say something they know to be untrue. This protection is given to witnesses to ensure that they can speak freely and openly to the panel when giving evidence without fear of legal action, although the immunity should obviously not be abused by making unsubstantiated statements about third parties who have no right of reply. The panel would like you to bear this in mind when answering the questions." The proceedings are being recorded and transcriptions will be made available on the Scrutiny website and to yourself at a later stage. So we would like to formally welcome you, Monsieur Monier, and to thank you for giving up your valuable time to come and present evidence to the Environment Scrutiny Panel on your take of some of the waste management practices that we have in the Island. The way I propose to proceed is to ask a number of

questions and I think there may well be some subsidiary questions and extra questions that the other members might wish to come in on in order to further flesh out some of the areas.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier :

Chairman, may I ask instead of just leaping into questions, because this will be transcribed later on, you possibly begin by allowing Mr. Monier to give a background to who he is, where he comes from and everything, and also to discuss, as we did before we started, the areas of confidentiality?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Yes, I think that goes without saying that Monsieur Monier will be able to set the scene as he sees fit in terms of answering the questions and if there are any areas that you feel would strain our confidentialities of financial information, that you feel should not be made available to the public, if you could give us an indication of those items and then we can move into a confidential area in order to take that evidence. Right, the first question we have got here is would you inform the panel please of your understanding of the waste hierarchy generally?

Mr. D. Monier:

Okay, for me it is generally accepted that we have got 3 kinds of waste. The inert waste like (11:13:47 inaudible); the non dangerous waste coming from industrial, commercial, household or agriculture; and the third waste is the hazardous waste. But at the same time that we get 3 kinds of waste, we have got 3 different kinds of recycling, from the best to the worst. The best way of recycling is, of course, reusing because it avoids waste. The second way of recycling is recycling to produce a new material like iron scraps, cardboard and this raw material is going to be used to produce a new material. The third way of recycling, which for me is necessary but it is the worst way, is the burning waste to produce either electricity or heat. That is why it is a way of recycling because you produce something, you produce electricity, but for me it is the worst one.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Any further questions on the first question? No? Okay, question 2, could you advise the panel, please, of the nature of your business, including its position within the waste hierarchy for each stream of waste that you deal with?

Mr. D. Monier:

My business is a family business. We have been in the recycling business since 1862, when my great-great-grandfather moved to Rennes coming from Ovan(?) in the centre of France. Since then we are established in Rennes and the company I am taking over is the Romi Recyclage, Waste Material Industrial in French. This is the most important of the 3 companies I am taking care of, it is making a 30 million euro turnover. We have got more or less 50 employees and 8 agencies through the west of France, which are like St. Malo, Redon, Lannion, Quimper, Ploermel, Dinan and Saumar. We are dealing with more or less around 200,000 tonnes a year. The second company is another company called Waste Transport Logistic, it is a company specialising in transporting goods and offering services to other recycling companies. So this company is working more or less 50 per cent of the time for Romi and 50 per cent for other recycling companies in France. Like in Lyon, we have a customer in Lyon, we have a customer in Lisle, this company runs 50 to 60 trucks and mobile shredder and mobile (11:16:47 inaudible) to cut the iron scraps. The third company is a brand new company we started in January 2007 which is (11:16:59 inaudible) Recyclage Electronic. It is a company specialising in recycling electronic and information tech devices, like screens, like computers, scanners, photocopying machines and other devices that way. Our main goal is to recycle the maximum material as possible and we are dealing with historical materials like papers, iron scraps but we are also dealing with plastic, like P.V.C. (polyvinyl chloride), P.T.(?) and other different kind of plastic, solid or flexible plastic. We have, for a few years, been dealing with wood now. We know how to shred wood and to recycle it, either to do some corrugated board or use it in factories producing heat. We are at the same time an historical company because we have been on this market for 150 years but at the same time we are very modern because we are certified ISO14000 which is a certification which obliges you to take into account the effect of your activities on the environment. So we try to use, at the same time, historic background and modern background.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Anything further? Deputy ?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

In respect to your certification in France, which refers to the effects of your activity on the environment, you said the level that you are at, is that a European Union level that has been set, and is it the highest level that you achieve or

Mr. D. Monier:

It is a world certification. ISO14000 is a world certification and what I like in that certification is that each year we try to make it better. We are moving ahead with the certification and so at the beginning we were being sure, for instance, not to pollute the ground, now we took the meaning of not making any pollution on the ground, so now we are trying to see the way we could work on the pollution we are making into the air, for instance, with a truck, to change the truck to non pollution truck. So it is a moving certification.

Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier :

You have been in business nearly 150 years and only last year you started a new company to deal with IT recycling. What contact have you had with the States of Jersey, presumably you have been around long enough for them to know about your existence?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes. I have been talking 2 years in 2005 to Mr. Rive, they came to St. Malo, I showed them around in St. Malo and in Dinan which are the 2 agencies we have got next to St. Malo, and we spent the day together and we eat together they seemed to be very pleased with what they saw but I have no further notice of those people. I just received a letter, when was it, last year, the autumn of last year, they were asking me for some prices I am going to tell you when it was exactly, I should have it here somewhere. 23rd September 2007, they asked me several prices, I give them several prices and since then I did not have any information from them.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

May we have a copy of the letter that you

Mr. D. Monier: Sure, no problem.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I wonder why it was that 2 years ago States of Jersey contacted you and there has been no move from them in that regard. What sort of questions were they asking you? What information did they want?

Mr. D. Monier:

The information was if it was possible for us to recycle materials coming from Jersey. Simple ones like cardboard and paper and this for us was no problem. We have been dealing with 2,000 tonnes of paper a month so that for us is no technical problem, and no financial problem. We could give them some money for that paper. But I do not know why.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What did you offer them in terms if it is commercially confidential we can strike this out of the public part, but what sort of quantities were they offering and what sort of prices were you offering in return for those quantities? Can we ask that question?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes. I have everything here.

The Connétable of St. Helier :

Rather than going through the contents of the letters which we had been offered anyway, is the important thing not to establish that you supplied the answers to the questions but no further contact with you was made by the States, is that right?

Mr. D. Monier:

Exactly, no further contact. I answer all the questions, I give them all the prices but so far nothing came from them.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

But it is also important to realise that 2 years ago the Transport and Technical Services Department's officers travelled to France to look at your operations, a business that has been up and running for 150 years, certified to a very high level, operating in 10 different places, handling all types of materials from computers to tyres and they asked you for quantities of materials to be dealt with by yourself. You suggested to them that there would be no problem whatsoever in doing it and you even offered them money for taking the material from them. We have been constantly told by Transport and Technical Services Department officers, and by the Minister himself, that the more we recycle the more it will cost us and you are giving us evidence today that if we recycle there is money available. Obviously if we can determine how much it costs us to get that to you and how much we get back then we can identify whether or not we are making money recycling or losing money recycling.

Mr. D. Monier:

It is true, but even if it costs to recycle you have to take into account that burning has a cost too, so anyway maybe it would be better to spend some money to do it right than to spend some money to do it wrong.

Connétable K.A. Le Brun of St. Mary :

Could I just ask, Mr. Chairman, was it just Mr. John Rive.

Mr. D. Monier: Two Mr. Rives.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Two Mr. Rives?

Mr. D. Monier:

I have their business card there so I can give them to you but they are 2 Mr. Rive that came to see me. Mr. John Rive and Mr. Dennis Rive.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Thank you. That is why, because there is a difference because Mr. John Rive is the Environmental Officer so there is a conflict slightly between the Environmental Officer and Transport and Technical Services.

Mr. D. Monier:

That was in June 2005.

Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en of St. Helier :

You may not remember as it is going back 2 years, during their meeting with you to discuss this and the cost, did they appear enthusiastic or did you get the feeling that it was an exercise that they were doing was there any verbal feeling from them that they were keen to do this?

Mr. D. Monier:

It would be difficult for me to say so. They seemed to be interested but the feeling I had - but it is only a feeling - is it would not go very far. That is the feeling I had, maybe I was wrong. No, I was not wrong because I did not get any return on this. I remember talking with a gentleman in charge of our agency in St. Malo, Mr. Goodche(?), and he was very nervous of the meeting but I told him: "Yes, okay, that is the first step, let us see if we are going to have a chance to make a second step." He said: "Why?" "Because I do not know if we are going to have another contact with those people." Seems that everything we offer seems to be okay with them but question mark after.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Could we just go back a little step as well? If we take each element of the waste stream that you deal with in turn, could you advise the panel a number of things, how the product is collected, sorted and baled; what happens to the end product and how does your process or processes add value to the independent elements of that waste stream; and rough quantities of the materials you deal with?

Mr. D. Monier:

The product is collected, depending from where the product is coming, if we are talking of household or if we are talking of industry or commercial. If we are talking of industry or commercial, the main way of picking up the waste is to put some truck into the yard of the commercial or the industry site and to pick it up the way -- when the customer needs it. If it is collecting from household we need some special truck like the one we use here in Jersey and it is door-to-door collection. But that is no problem, we know how to do that. We have been doing it in the City of Rennes, in the centre of Rennes, to collect cardboard for the last 3 years and so we know how to do that. Because the City of Rennes asked us to do that and they pay us to do that. Start with the point that anyway burning cardboard into the incinerator costs around 75-80 euro a tonne. She said: "Why not give the 80 euro to the company to collect the cardboard and to recycle." That way the 4,000 tonnes of cardboard we are collecting every year is going to give some room to some other rubbish or waste that we cannot recycle. So that is the deal we have been having with the City of Rennes for the last 3 years and I am pleased with it. The City of Rennes seems to be pleased with it too and pay for that but it does not cost more money to the city.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Okay, and that is just for cardboard?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, that is just an example, yes. The main waste or the main rubbish you can find on the street is in the city, in the commercial street so that is the reason why we are doing it in Rennes. That is just for the cardboard, but we can do the same with plastic. So far Rennes is not doing it with plastic but we could do the same for the plastic as far as there is a demand for it. But the way of collecting the plastic and storing the plastic and baling the plastic and cardboard is almost the same. We use the same machinery we use for the plastic and the cardboard. We do a big square bale, around 500 kilos and that is the way we deal with that waste. What happens to the product after? The product after it has been collected, sorted, is baled and it is sold to companies who use that waste as a raw material to produce a new material like cardboard, like plastic, that is the main thing and it is the main way of recycling the product.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

You speak of doing your project in Rennes for 3 years with your truck and you have a good relationship there, have you thought about other places to do this and also in terms of household collection, do you do a household collection where you pick up cans and glass and paper and things like that?

Mr. D. Monier:

We have been doing this this is not my main market target but we have been doing it in certain cities, yes, but we are able to do it, that is no problem, to collect it, we know how to do it. The main project we are doing, we are doing 2 ways of collecting. One way generally in a yellow bag it is recycled product like iron, aluminium, iron can, aluminium can, paper, cardboard, plastic, certain plastics and in another bag, which is generally black, we collect the non recyclable rubbishes.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What makes up the non-recyclable rubbishes, generally speaking? Is it like food waste and things like this?

Mr. D. Monier:

It can be food waste, it can be certain plastics which we cannot recycle but food waste there is another project that can be offered to people, people who have a garden, is to keep their food waste and to keep their cut grass to do some composting. Individual compost. The City of Rennes has been, for free, giving away some little plastic compost equipment so that people can do their own compost and that way you do not collect part of the rubbish.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Have you seen some of the processes in Jersey at the moment, and do you see any viable commercial possibilities for operating in Jersey from Brittany? If so, how would you propose to deal with them operationally?

Mr. D. Monier:

I have seen quickly the process in Jersey. For me I do not see any technical problem for operating in Jersey from Brittany. There is the cost of transportation, definitely, there is no doubt about it. This cost will always exist but we have to work on it to develop an incoming traffic from France to Jersey so that we can create the outgoing traffic. That way we will lower the price of the transportation. But it is possible the way the waste is collected and treated in Jersey can be, I think, improved. No doubt about it. We have got the base in France to be able to operate in Jersey from France.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Right, so you are saying then that there would be a multiplicity of ways that you could be helpful to the Island and that it would not necessarily have to be that you needed to do all of the collecting, or sorting, or baling jobs in the Island, perhaps maybe only some of them, or

Mr. D. Monier:

I think it would be better to do the operation of sorting and baling in Jersey, that way by preparing the recycling material in Jersey you avoid transportation costs and doing the job twice, because the waste has to be baled in Jersey because of the transportation. So as far as you bale why not sort it before, that way you get the final product ready to be shipped and to be transported directly to the factory, instead of baling it in Jersey, being obliged to unbale in St. Malo in France, sort it and rebale it after. So the operation has to be done in Jersey.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What about tyres, dealing with products, for example, like tyres. We have spoken about the different types of waste and the different types of approaches, what do you have to treat tyres?

Mr. D. Monier:

To treat tyres we can -- we first have to shred it. So if we want to we can bring a shredder here to Jersey and we can shred the tyres to be ready to be transported to France and after they are treated in France.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

So you could bring your machine to Jersey and shred tyres? Would you be prepared to do that?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, it will be possible for me, at least to start and to see the best way to operate, but we could try and bring a mobile shredder here and shred wood or tyres. We use the same shredder so we could easily shred wood or tyres.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What kind of quantity, just for information, would you be looking to shred to demonstrate how many tyres, what kinds of tyres?

Mr. D. Monier:

Any kind of tyres, it can be lorry truck tyres, it can be bicycle tyre, that is no problem. The minimum quantity to try to be efficient would be something like 100 tonnes or something like this, minimum quantity of tyres and the same for the minimum quantity of wood.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

We would need to prepare that for you obviously so that you had something to shred?

Mr. D. Monier: Yes.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

The shredding process that you were speaking about, these are primary shredding, yes?

Mr. D. Monier: Yes.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

So the size of the particles will be down to what?

Mr. D. Monier:

The shredding we are doing is just shredding to lower the cost of transportation. It will not be possible to resell the product the way it is going to be shred in Jersey. It is going to have to be shredded again, but that is no problem. It is just a question of transportation.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What are the sorts of sizes you get in the initial shredding?

Mr. D. Monier:

Depending on the shredder, if we are talking about centimetres it will be around 15 x 15 centimetres.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

So much more than a quarter of a tyre which I believe is happening at the moment in Jersey. They are just shredding a tyre into quarters and --

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, our shredders are much more efficient. It is much smaller.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Could you tell us a little about what happens to the process after the tyres are shredded?

Mr. D. Monier:

There are 3 ways of recycling the tyres. First re-using the tyres is possible by operating the tyres -- I do not even know what you call it in English but it is possible to re-use a tyre after. Second thing is to shred it to use the plastic and the rubber to do -- they use it to do some ground for running platforms, they can use it to do some playground for kids and stuff like this. The third one is burning the tyre because more and more factories making cement are using tyres instead of fuel or petrol for drying the cement. So that is the 3 different ways of re-using the waste of tyres.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Would you have any reservations about those markets continuing into the future indefinitely?

No. I definitely think that those markets are going to keep on in the future. Definitely. Because as far as petrol, oil is going up. If the amount of oil we can use is going to decrease, I see no reason why we are not going to burn tyres to produce heat. As far as we know, we have to treat the smoke going out of the

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes, it is a specialised fuel --

Mr. D. Monier:

It is much easier to treat the smoke when you are using one combustible than when you are using various combustible.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

In the future with tyres there is a move, is there not, to one large company taking all of the tyres in various countries to do a process. So it is not going to be burnt in the future anyway.

Mr. D. Monier:

In France we have what we call an eco-organism(?). This eco-organism is collecting the money when you buy a tyre you give some money to that eco-organism and this eco-organism use that money to re-treat the tyres after. This company belongs to the tyre manufacturer, like Michelin, Dunlop, Goodyear and the others. But they are obliged to treat the product they are putting on the market at the end of the life of that product. So that is the reason why they have been doing this company called (11:38:19 inaudible) and with this they are treating 70 per cent of the tyres they put on the market. Sorry, no, I am going to change that, they are treating 70 per cent of the tyres because they are putting on the market every year 70 per cent of the total market.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What is the cost to the consumer for that? It is like basically an environmental tax at the front end, is it not?

Yes, it is a kind of tax, exactly. The average cost - I would have to check it out - for a normal car, a mid-size car should be around 2 euro for each tyre but I can give you those figures. I have those figures at the office and I can easily give you those figures for everything, for the trucks, for the motorcycle and for the cars.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Most probably as you are well aware, the Island is split up into 12 parishes and they all do their own collection, although some of the collectors do 2 or 3 parishes so it is not 12 separate ones altogether. I was wondering how this would go about if the individual collectors had their own rubbish, the storing is the big problem or would be. The cost of collecting from each individual parish, how would you envisage that might be done or would it be better for you to come across every so often to do the cardboard and the paper and the tins, or do you think they could do it individually and then ship it to France? What would be the minimum amounts, as it were, that would be viable for you? You did mention earlier about tyres and wood and such like of 100 tonnes.

Mr. D. Monier:

For me, if we are talking about household rubbish or waste, the amount you are collecting is the same, only the way you collecting it is different. So the cost, if it is done -- the way it is done now the cost is not more expensive, the only thing you have organise is the collection in another way. For instance if you are collecting 3 times a week in a parish, you still keep on collecting 3 times a week, the only thing is you are collecting one day -- one collection is made for recycling rubbish. For instance, you collect them Monday, Wednesday and Friday normally and you just decide that on Wednesday you are going to collect only the recyclable waste. So the collection is the same. The cost of collection is almost the same, there is no very important difference but you have to treat the rubbish on the spot, you have to sort them and you have to bale them on the spot immediately. You cannot pile them up during one month, 2 months or whatever after bring in equipment to do that. There is some little equipment you can easily install in a warehouse, in a small warehouse and by treating it very day or almost every day you lower the cost.

Therefore would there be a minimum amount to transport from the Island to --

Mr. D. Monier:

The minimum amount would be 25 tonnes, but even on the boat -- I do not think you can put 25 tonnes on a truck to go on the boat. So the minimum amount would be 22 tonnes but you can load a truck every week or 2 trucks every week of 22 tonne of cardboard or plastic films and send it to France, that is no problem. As the material is baled, it does not take a big floor surface. I would say to put 25 tonnes of cardboard in a bale you need something like 25 square metres, 30 square metres. So it is not a big amount of surface.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Another item as well would be for the batteries. Obviously you do that as well at the present time. Is there, again, a minimum amount that you would work to because, as I said earlier, the problem is always the collecting and the storing and I know at the present time Transport and Technical Services have got the facility but they cannot export less than 20 tonne at a time. Therefore they are storing it in the meantime before they can export it and such like. So what I am saying is that there would not be a difference from your point of view from purchasing or coming to some agreement between 5 tonne or 20 tonne or such like?

Mr. D. Monier:

I think we could start at one tonne. We give to our customer little -- it is a 600 litre plastic box, it is waterproof, that means there is no leak, and we give that to our customer and the customers are putting inside around 800 to one tonnes of batteries. It is as big as a wooden pallet and we could put on the boat one box by one box. So we could receive in St. Malo one tonne of battery every week, every day, every month, it does not matter. For us it is no problem. We know how to do that. After we would ship them by 25 tonnes from St. Malo, but receiving the batteries one tonne by one tonne, that is no problem. We can send a little truck we have got in St. Malo to, for instance, your facilities just to pick up the little box, we can easily manipulate it with a forklift so for us one tonne is no problem.

Therefore from your point of view - and not disclosing the costings - it would not make any difference to you for payment either way as long as it is baled or such like?

Mr. D. Monier:

That is no difference for me. We even can give you some plastic boxes so you can use them and send them back to us when they are full. That is generally the way we operate.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Can I just follow up some questions that the Constable of St. Mary has opened up for us here? Can I ask you to talk to us about the kinds of boxes that you have available to give to communities to help them to recycle and what kind of information and support you give to these communities to teach them how to recycle at the moment?

Mr. D. Monier:

We can offer any kind of boxes, bin, whatever. The biggest one we have got is 33 cubic metres which is a big bin we put on a truck, that is the biggest one, and the smallest one must be 200 litres.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What are they for? Can you tell us what the 33 cubic metre one is for?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, the one we are using is for decheterrie in French. It is the kind of place where people bring their waste they want to recycle so that we rent those 33 cubic metre bins to communities who want to put them into the decheterrie - I do not know the word in English - and at the same time we can even put some little paper baskets into the offices of the communities or to the company to pick up the papers to recycle the papers that everybody is using in the office. So you see the range of bins we can just use or offer is wide.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Do you actively try to help businesses and offices by giving them leaflets and talks and things or ?

Mr. D. Monier:

The thing is, the more tonnes I get the better I feel. I always try to find a way to first please the customer, it can be a community or company or private company; second giving the most money possible because the more money he is going to get the happier he is going to be; and, third, try to make a little profit out of it for me. Those are my 3 main points. So we always try to support -- when a community or private company wants to go ahead and try to recycle we always try to offer the most services possible and the services can be all the way to making some class(?) to inform the people. For instance, in D.R.T.G.(?) now, which is a pretty big company in Dinard Pleutuit just repairing planes, big planes, we are making 7 classes to inform the people working in the company to the best way to recycle their waste. A little group 5-7 people for each services of the company, the offices, the production and we just inform the people to the best way of recycling the waste. So it is totally possible we are making communication by making postcard on the wall or signs and stuff like this and we are trying to make it basic for them by using colours. The green one is the colour to recycle, the black colour is the waste and generally by using simple means like this we are mainly succeeding. But after this classroom we follow the communication by checking the waste they are selling us or giving us and trying to identify where it does not work correctly and if it is necessary we go back just to again inform the people and to see why it is not working correctly. So we can do. That is the best way for me to get more tonnes and to get more customers.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Are there any processes on the critical path analysis that would render the whole recycling exercise prohibitively expensive and not worth bothering with?

Mr. D. Monier:

Could you repeat the question, please?

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

There is a process of analysis when you are looking at engineering processes which determine whether or not you have flexibility in terms of the costings and running arrangements, the best path through is called the critical path and those processes on the critical path must be such that if there are changes it makes the process less efficient and, in some cases, very expensive, so much so that the decision at the end of the day would be not to go ahead with a recycling exercise. So, for example, would shipping costs be one of the critical path processes which would

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, the shipping costs could be part of it. The shipping cost from Jersey is an extract cost according to the way we have been dealing before but I would say there is not much other possibilities. Of course it is going to be a cost. We just have to work to lower it to the maximum but it is always going to be an extract cost. But is there other possibilities for Jersey not to recycle? Do not tell me that burning is another possibility. I do not believe in that because burning - and I will finish with that after when I am doing the conclusion - for me is not the right opportunity to Jersey. Of course it is going to cost extra money, we just have to work on it just to lower it. But first how much does it cost to burn, that is the first thing to determine, do we know exactly?

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

How much does it cost to build a burner is another consideration. How much does it cost to operate? How much does it cost to commission?

Mr. D. Monier: That is it.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

So the costs of shipping have to be weighed up against the costs of not shipping and that is a sensible analysis. There is no other critical component. It would not affect you in France, if it would affect you in Jersey it is the same. But one question, maybe in terms of what you suggested earlier, bringing in material would help you to lower some of the costs, which is a good practice of business, have you managed at this time yet to identify what the costs are of transporting material from Jersey to France by the various companies? Have you managed to look into that?

Mr. D. Monier:

We are now working with the Mon Blanc(?) they did not give them to me yet but I should have them by next week and I could just give you the answer at that point. But so far the woman I am dealing with, because we are selling some -- we are using Mon Blanc to load the boat with iron scrap, we are selling from St. Malo to Spain or to Turkey. So I have been working with Mon Blanc pretty much and they are still to give me those costs by next week.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Have they come to Jersey yet or ?

Mr. D. Monier:

Mon Blanc is -- exactly, they are coming to Jersey already. I think they are Commodore Shipping so they know the region.

Deputy C.J. Scott Warr en:

The more tonnage that is shipped out, were that to happen, is it just done pro rata or is there a reduction for the larger the bulk being sent the larger the tonnage.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Economies of scale.

Mr. D. Monier:

If the question is if the more tonnes we ship out of Jersey, is it going to lower the prices of yes, exactly. The more you ship out the better it is going to be for the cost, no doubt about it.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

You recently visited the Bellozane site briefly and saw the crushed bulky waste that was being shredded prior to incineration. Do you have any comments on what you saw?

Mr. D. Monier:

That seems to me exactly what should not be done.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: In what way?

Mr. D. Monier:

Because you are just filling up the incinerator with everything you have got, no matter it is technical, no matter if it is recyclable, not matter if it -- everything goes in it and that is it. But the problem is if you put some chemical products in an incinerator the smoke you are going to get out of it is going to be obviously bad. This is true for a brand new incinerator, I am not talking about worn incinerator that seems to be from another age, [Laughter] excuse me. The thing is you have 2 good reasons to sort the bulky waste, like you say, you have at the entrance because first you do not know what is in it and you have got chemical products, and second because I would say at least 25 per cent of what is in there can be recycled, at least. But this bulky waste has to be worked on.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

The panel were recently with the Environment and Planning Minister in Sweden and we were looking at construction sites for the building industry and in Jersey at the moment there does not appear to be a particular emphasis placed on sorting some of the building waste construction materials prior to their delivery at Bellozane. One of the photographs we took was of containers where the builders were sorting out the building materials prior to taking them to whatever facility was being arranged for their further re-use or destruction or whatever. Is this a common process in France in the construction industry?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes. Now in every public (11:54:55 inaudible) which is when you want to destroy something, you are calling several companies, in the process you have to be able to sort everything. When I say "sorting everything", except on old buildings the big nice granite stone and stuff like that, they take it out and they resell for the new

construction. So all the windows are dismantled and put on the side and are shredded after. Plaster is put on the side because plaster is not an inert waste so it has to be treated a special way but you cannot treat it as the normal granite and stuff like this. So every demolition, destruction of buildings now use a new policy of treating the waste. Not talking about amiante.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Asbestos.

Mr. D. Monier:

Okay, yes, even there it is a very special treatment.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

So in your general view do you think that your company or other companies based in France could assist in reducing the volume of material going to either the existing incineration facility or indeed any other facility?

Mr. D. Monier:

There is no doubt in my mind that our knowledge would help Jersey to improve the way Jersey is treating its waste because I think there is much to do.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

The key to this solution is by sorting materials?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes, the key. I would say sorting right from the beginning. If we can avoid having bulky waste in Bellozane it could be sorted before, that would be the best way to do it because sorting is another cost.

The Connétable of St. Helier :

That is ideally by the householder rather than by the municipality?

Mr. D. Monier:

By the householder, exactly. At the same time avoiding having 5 or 6 trash cans in the kitchen which is not obviously the best solution. But having 2, maybe 3 trash cans can be the right solution there.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Any further final questions.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

One thing I would like to just enlarge upon is you have said you have just started the sorting out of computers, televisions and such like, in Jersey they do do a certain amount originally but they are then left with the cases and everything that is left and that then has to be either burnt or shipped to somewhere or another. What would be the more beneficial or the possibility, from all the televisions and computers and such like, would you be willing to take them complete on a pellet board? If they were separated previously in here then obviously there is then the cost of exporting the frames or the bulk in that other way. What would you see the best way forward for Jersey's point of view to get rid of their old computers and televisions and such like?

Mr. D. Monier:

Computer and television can be recycled. Computer screen or television can be recycled around 95 to 98 per cent depending on the age of the television. I would say the best way for Jersey would be to leave it the way it is, load it into a truck and send it to France. Why? Because the television is more -- the screen is heavy so it would not be a good idea to dismantle the screen or the television in Jersey to get the parts around, the best thing to do is to send it the way it is to France and we can dismantle it in France, that is no problem.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What kind of money would you be talking about in terms of computers by the tonne and televisions by the tonne, what kind of money do you currently pay for those things at the moment?

Mr. D. Monier:

Okay, the cost of dismantling television in France, I am charging 280 euros a tonne. To this I have to add the cost of transportation.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

So for every tonne of material you receive of computer equipment --

Mr. D. Monier:

Computer screen, we are talking about television and computer screens.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: Just the screens.

Mr. D. Monier:

The most expensive part is the screen because you have chemical products in it, so you have to treat it a certain way.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

What about other components within the waste stream that are valuable, do you offer money for those? There are some elements of computers and IT and other things, and telephones for example, we are told there is value in those.

Mr. D. Monier:

Depending on the age of the computer, I can offer some money on it. For the phone, there is no value for the phone, we have to dismantle it. Why we are offering money for the computers because we can -- if it is a recent computer and not too old we would say we can reuse it, it can be restored to be reused. In the case of mobile phones or the phone generator it uses is -- around 0.5 per cent of the mobile phones can be recycled to be reused. So I would say almost no mobile phone can be reused so it has to be dismantled. The cost for the telephone would be around 120 euros a tonne.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is a bit of a strange thing in Jersey, we have an ongoing issue with our compost and green waste and I think we produce something in the region of about 30,000-35,000 tonnes a year of green waste which comes from gardens and green shredding and bits of wood and we have compost open window facility operating at the moment. What could you do, do you think, with that kind of quantity of waste? How would you tackle that if you were to try to tackle that?

Mr. D. Monier:

First I would try to avoid the waste by giving away little equipment for individual compost. That way you get less trash or less waste to collect and that way you are going to decrease the cost of collecting and the cost of treating. Otherwise the thing we are doing in France is making compost and reselling the compost to the people. But the best way is to help people do their own compost.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

When you make compost, do you do that in association with another company or do you do that yourself?

Mr. D. Monier:

Yes. No, I am doing this in association with another company. I am collecting green waste, generally I am collecting green waste but I do not treat them.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Do you charge for the collection of green waste?

Mr. D. Monier: Yes.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire: What is it you charge people?

Mr. D. Monier:

Depending on the time of the -- it is a question of time of the truck, depending where it is, depending the time the truck needs to do the job, it is around 50 euro an hour.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Fifty euro an hour. Do you have any idea how much it would be on a tonnage basis?

Mr. D. Monier:

Depending how long it takes to collect a tonne. If takes one hour or if it takes 5 hours, depending on the amount.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

There is no limit really to the amount that you would be prepared to take?

Mr. D. Monier: No, no limit.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Do you think it would be a viable option to - I am not suggesting it is the best thing to do - export green waste from Jersey, or would it not be a viable option?

Mr. D. Monier:

I think, speaking of cost, it would be great to try and take care of it here in Jersey, less cost, cheaper. Exporting is a cost on merchandise that does not get a big value.

Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Is there anything else you think you can talk to us about in terms of burning now.

Mr. D. Monier:

I have a little conclusion if it is okay.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel: Yes, that will be fine.

Mr. D. Monier:

There is no doubt in my mind that burning all the waste is a solution with no future for at least 3 reasons. First, an incinerator, as modern as it can be, will always have a negative effect on our environment. The view, the smoke, the dust, even if it necessary to burn part of our waste, let us keep this solution for a minimum of tonnes and recycle the maximum. The second reason, we need the raw material, plastic, iron scraps, cardboard, papers, we can find in our waste. The recent prices on the world market are historically high. Let us use this opportunity to initiate a new waste policy based on recycling and lowering costs thanks to the resale profit. Third reason, the development of new techniques either to prepare or use recycled materials, offer new possibilities and increase the demand of those materials. This is the reason why the same prices on the world market will remain high. Finally, thanks to the optimum financial and technical condition you have a unique opportunity to modify the way the Island of Jersey has been conducting its waste policy for the last 30 years and I am ready to be part of it.

Deputy R.C. Duhamel:

Okay, right. I would like to thank you on behalf of the panel for attending at your own expense and in your own time. Your comments have been very helpful. Thank you.