Co-ordination of services for Vulnerable Children - Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - Transcript - 1 May 2009

STATES OF JERSEY

Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel

Children's Services Sub-Panel -

The Co-ordination of Services for

 Vulnerable Children

FRIDAY, 1st MAY 2009

Panel:

Senator A. Breckon (Chairman) Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour Mr. S. Le Quesne (Scrutiny Officer)

Witnesses:

Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture) Mr. M. Lundy (Director of Education, Sport and Culture)

Ms. J. Forrest (Principal Educational Psychologist)

Ms. P. Tumelty (Parenting Programme Manager)

Ms. B. Cochrane (Senior Education Welfare Officer)

Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):

We record this really as much for own purposes as for anything else. It is transcribed. It does go on the Scrutiny website. What I will do, I will do the introductions on our side and then, James, if you would like to do yours just for the benefit of the tape and then I will go through the process, which you are probably aware of anyway, but we will just do that. Then we will get on to questions which I think you should have had a copy of a few days ago which is just an idea really of the general direction. Obviously, there will be issues arising from the questions. The title of the panel is the Co-ordination of Services for Vulnerable Children and that is really why we have asked you to come along because you have some responsibility in this area as well as others. I am chairing this sub-panel. Deputy Trevor Pitman is Vice-Chairman. The other members are Deputy Roy Le Hérissier, Deputy Geoff Southern , Sam Le Quesne is our Scrutiny Officer and we have somebody recording behind you. If, for the benefit of the tape you would like to introduce the people who are with you, James.

Deputy J.G. Reed of St. Ouen (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

Yes, my name is Deputy James Reed. I am the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. To my right is Patricia Tumelty who is responsible for The Bridge. To my left, my Chief Officer Mario Lundy. To his left, Brenda Cochrane, Child Protection Co-ordinator and we have Jo Forrest, our psychologist.

Senator A. Breckon:

Okay, thanks for that. As I mentioned the panel's name, if you like, for this is the Co-ordination Services for Vulnerable Children and part of this is what has happened in the past previous reports, the Kathy Bull Report; there was also the Howard League Review. There has been work done by the Child Protection Committee and there are other things going on, as you know, within the system. The latest is the Andrew Williamson Report. The Scrutiny process is not just about the Williamson Report but it is a little bit wider than that and we are getting contacts and information from elsewhere. Generally the procedure, if anybody feels comfortable a question might not be aimed at anybody in particular but if anybody wants to add anything to it or to supplement what you might have to say then please feel free to do so and then at the end of the process if there is anything you would like to say to us then there will be an opportunity at the end to say something that we might have missed or something you feel about what is happening or what is not. As you know already, it is evidence based so that is really where we are looking from today but as well as the professional input we also want the opinion of sort of where we are. The process really is not to investigate what happened 50 years ago. It is to look at how best things move forward, where we are now and how we move on from that. So, if I can begin and, as I say, the questions can be answered by yourself or by the support you have got, whichever you feel comfortable with but if we could look first at what Williamson is saying, perhaps you would like to comment on the issues that have been brought to light by the Williamson Report and recommendations.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think, speaking in very general terms first of all, the Williamson Report - as did Kathy Bull - highlighted the fact that we need to do more for vulnerable children and certainly, as a department, we are keen to see that happen. Incidentally, we have made quite large efforts since the Kathy Bull Report to introduce a number of support mechanisms - which I am sure some of the other members of the team can elaborate on - to try and deal with and address the issues identified. I suppose the only comment that I would make, and it is a concern of mine, is that although the department has made what I believe to be considerable efforts to address some of the issues, other partners do not seem to have made those same efforts. Now, I accept that resources are part of the picture.

Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier : Are you talking about post-Kathy Bull?

The Deputy of St. Ouen : Yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Your department has made efforts, others have not, would you like to elucidate in some detail on that and put some meat on those bones, anyone?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Yes. Following Kathy Bull we have obviously introduced The Bridge and the support mechanisms and working with partnerships. We have also developed closer working with family nursing with the introduction of the new agreement and partnership agreements with the nursery school. I believe that we have addressed and drawn attention to be aware of issues at an earlier stage than otherwise we might have in the past. We have developed closer working relationships with the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and I believe that the Pathways Project that is based at Les Squez, adjacent to Samarès School, or within the grounds, should I say, of Samarès school, is a very good example, again, of another initiative that flowed from the Kathy Bull Report. Equally, I believe that greater emphasis has been made on addressing issues of vulnerable children within our schools and we have a team of individuals, some of whom are represented here, that have been tasked specifically to support and help the vulnerable children who we come across within the education system. If anybody else would like to add ...

Mr. M. Lundy (Director of Education, Sport and Culture):

Okay. I think if you go to the heart of the Williamson Report and what you are looking at are some issues around clear political accountability, a key issue who is taking the lead in terms of responsibility for vulnerable children. There are some issues around structure and of course we know that the Children's Executive, for example, will enhance the partnership working between all the agencies. There is no question that they had agencies that perhaps were not accustomed to talking as frequently with each other. We are now doing so, so a lot of very positive benefits came out of that. Notwithstanding the fact that there was a lack of clear lines of accountability did impact on the effectiveness of the Children's Executive. There were resource issues and Williamson has identified those and the resource issues of course that came out of the Kathy Bull Report. Well, the Bull Report recommendations were estimated to cost around £2.3 million and what was granted in the end was £900,000. So, you have to consider whether or not you can have the same expectations of recommendations without the investment that is required to make them happen. Then there were issues around governance and inspection which are clearly issues that the implementation plan should resolve and when I say governance and inspection, not just at the system level but at the institutional level and, indeed, at the individual case level. Then there is something around the whole concept of partnership working which is developing more, not just in services for vulnerable children but across the States of Jersey. There are other examples of that. The Skills Executive, for example, would highlight that. I think, from our department perspective, one of the big issues for us would be that we are developing these things outside of the context of a comprehensive political vision for children and Children's Services in the Island, in other words a Children and Young Persons Plan. So, I think these are the key issues that Williamson was identifying and these are the key issues that we would hope that the Williamson Implementation Plan would address.

Senator A. Breckon:

A question that we asked of others, particularly we interviewed some senior police officers last week and the question that was asked of them is, supposing a child turns up at school and let us say there are issues that cause concern and about the way the child is dressed or about bruising or something like that, where does that go?  Can somebody explain to us where that goes?

Mr. M. Lundy:

Brenda may be able to elaborate on this but the structure in place at the moment is that every single teacher, in fact every single member of staff in our school system, is trained in child protection. So, they are trained in what to look for and how to respond to any signs of maltreatment or indeed other forms of abuse or neglect that they might see. Every school has a child protection co-ordinator, a trained child protection co-ordinator, and the route is quite direct. It is not always the head teacher, in fact, more often it is not the head teacher. The route for concerns is quite direct to that child protection co- ordinator. Brenda is the Senior Child Protection Co-ordinator for the Department for Education, Sport and Culture. She is the one that works with the other agencies, the child protection teams, the police, et cetera, so the school procedures would require the school to contact Brenda for advice on how to act. If it was a borderline issue, for example, then we would still seek advice, albeit anonymously. We would not necessarily identify the case but we would seek advice and say if these circumstances appeared what would be your advice? Then we would follow the advice of the child protection team to follow that through. Is there anything you wish to add to that, Brenda?

Ms. B. Cochrane (Senior Education Welfare Officer):

I would say that where there is evidence of a clear need to refer to agencies, schools are more likely to refer directly to those agencies. They would follow our child protection procedures which mean they must contact social services or the police. It tends to be the case that they will contact me if they are not sure but I would err on the side of caution and seek advice from those agencies.

Mr. M. Lundy:

I mean the schools themselves will, of course, be aware of individual children or groups of children or

families who would be broadly considered vulnerable and schools themselves have services in place to support those children. So, it is not that frequent that someone who has not, perhaps, been identified as a vulnerable child would certainly come to the fore although it does happen but we have multi-agency support teams in the school. This development of the teams, post-Kathy Bull, there was a pilot in 2 secondary schools ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

When you say multi-agency, what sort of agency are you talking about?

Mr. M. Lundy:

Well, the ideal Multi-Agency Support Team and this was a concept piloted in 2 schools. It has been successful in one. It has been successful in the other but there has not been a full team in the other because it has been difficult to resource it with a social worker. The Multi-Agency Support Team would contain the schools' attendance officer. Each school, since Kathy Bull, has its own attendance officer. The school counsellor, again, the school counsellor was a recommendation of Kathy Bull ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

You have a school counsellor in every school?

Mr. M. Lundy:

There is a school counsellor in every 11 to 16 schools, the colleges and the 6th forms share and the private schools share a co-counsellor.

Deputy G.P. Southern : The level of training?

Mr. M. Lundy:

In 2 of the schools I think, most definitely in one, the school counsellors are trained psychotherapists

and the supervision of the school counsellor is undertaken by the C.A.M.H.S (Child and Adolescence Mental Health Service) clinical psychiatrist. So, there is a proper supervision process in place for the school counsellors and they know the cases that they can deal with and the cases that they need to refer on. The teams in the school would include the school counsellor, that includes a social worker if there was one and they include a behaviour support teacher and probably somebody from the pastoral systems in the school and the pastoral systems in the school are usually the year heads who have responsibility for the welfare of pupils right across the years and any form tutor that might be involved with a child.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

The school counsellor is employed by the Education Department, is it?

Mr. M. Lundy: That is right, yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Okay, and you said that every member of staff in every school is trained in child protection issues ...

Mr. M. Lundy: That is the policy.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Again that level of training consists of what?

Mr. M. Lundy:

Well, the schools cascade the training now themselves. Originally the schools were trained from the outside. I think that Brenda would be able to elaborate on that.

Ms. B. Cochrane:

Every member of staff would have foundation training, which is a day's training, and then key members of staff will have more intensive training. So, your senior staff with a pastoral responsibility will have a higher level training. Your child protection designated teacher would be a much higher level but everybody would have the basic one day foundation training.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Okay, yes.  That sounds like remarkable progress from Kathy Bull to Williamson ...

Mr. M. Lundy:

Much of this was in place pre-Kathy Bull.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

All right, okay, pre of my question.  I did not even get to ask the question.  Okay, go on.

Ms. B. Cochrane:

There was just another point on liaison with Children's Service. Again, post-Kathy Bull our Education Welfare Service was able to develop and one of the staff there has a role of liaison and attends the weekly referral meetings with Children's Service and is able to, again, monitor any concerns, liaise with school staff, liaise obviously with both services to ensure that any vulnerable children are identified and monitored.

Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :

Could we just go back a step, sorry? When Deputy Southern asked the Minister I thought I heard you say that we feel we have done a lot but others have not. Now, I thought that was probably going to lead on to, perhaps, where those failings were, perhaps in other departments so that all fitted together. Was that a mistaken observation?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Well, yes. I am quite happy to elaborate on that. Clearly, whether it is Kathy Bull or the Williamson Report, it identified that if we were to provide the proper and full support for vulnerable children it had to be a fully effective and integrated service. That means not only putting the needs of the vulnerable children first, but equally their families. Clearly, Education's role is a key element in provision of service, however, it is limited and the reason why it is limited is that it provides access or is open for 38 weeks of the year, 5 days a week from 8.00 a.m. until 5.00 p.m. So the question arises is that no matter what efforts the Education Department put in to providing the provision of support necessary, it is limited to that particular time. This is where, I believe, Williamson is highlighted, the need to clearly create that integrated service that provides a complete provision which is, in many respects, outside of the scope of our department.

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think the key and perhaps a practical example of this might be helpful because it is not about identifying partners who may be feeling the responsibility. That is not what it is about. It is about other resources that are needed to provide the service that we want available. Now, if you have, for example, let us say a Children's Service that is resourced to intervene at this high level of need and is struggling to recruit and perhaps does not have the resources to recruit the numbers of staff they would need, then quite clearly that department will have to respond at that level of need in order to make sure that the highest risk cases and the most vulnerable people are properly supported. If, from an educational perspective, you want some intervention down here, a lower tier, the resources are not going to be there to make that intervention. So clearly there is a disparity and I think that is what the Minister is referring to.

Senator A. Breckon:

I do not know. James, it certainly was not on your watch but I mean on the Children's Executive is anybody in a position to make a comment about whether they felt it worked or it did not, because the recommendation was that there would be Home Affairs, there would be Health and Social Services and Education and, in effect, where services were required there would be an element of seamlessness, if

you like, to bring together to deliver the service.  Jo, would you like to comment on that.

Ms. J. Forrest (Principal Educational Psychologist):

I represent Education on the Children's Executive and there are representatives from Social Services - several - and Probation, Youth Service, C.A.M.H.S. It operates as a multi-agency forum that I find extremely helpful.

Senator A. Breckon:

It works at officer level, does it?

Ms. J. Forrest:

Yes, it works at strategic level. It has taken reports about the Parenting Service, about Y.A.T. (Youth Action Team), about the M.A.S. (Multi-Agency Support) teams. The resources implication that has been alluded to, it had £900,000 to implement £3 million worth of recommendations. Obviously it has had an effect. The main tasks it was charged with were things like opening Greenfields and setting up the M.A.S. teams. Those things have all happened. In terms of the effectiveness of the use of those provisions you hit up against the resource constraints again.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :

The Minister said that, or was it the Director, the cost of building Greenfields, how much was that and from what budget did that come? It cannot have been the £900,000, can it?

Mr. M. Lundy:

No, no, it was not. Then the cost of building Greenfields was outside of that and there were arrangements which I would need to recollect for financing that project at the time. It is not specifically the physical resource that we are talking about within the £3 million. It is predominantly the human resource and the ...

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I want to follow on from what your chief psychologist said. I wonder if she could tell us - not in a magic wand sense, although we do have a person who asks about that - where are the areas where if you had more staff you could provide more effective provision?

Ms. J. Forrest:

It is not about more staff in my area. It is what the Director was alluding to. XIt is theX Identification within schools and the care that there is around children in schools means that schools are very, very aware of the pressures on children and on family lives but, as described, the Children's Service is, of necessity, operating here (specialist intervention). I think they have got about half the staff they are supposed to have, so whereas the schools XfromX operate here (universal service), it is like a triangle, that this pointy end (specialist intervention). is where the existing resource has to go of course - and very effectively I say, thanks to the way people work - and then this bit down here(universal service),, that works well and we go up into the middle bit (targeted intervention) Xa bit butX where there is a gap Xso ...X

Mr. M. Lundy:

I am sorry for cutting in and it is understandable because, you know, if the school is rightly trying to bring to the attention of the Children's Service where a child may be at risk, if not immediate risk but may be at risk in the longer term if resources do not go into it and the Children's Service are faced with that and a serious child protection issue at the same time, well it is quite clear where they have to put their resource.  So, the effect is that we need to consider how we invest in early intervention.

Senator A. Breckon:

Roy, do you want to do your second question?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes.  Sorry ...

Ms. J. Forrest:

There is another aspect to that which is in terms of children's emotional well-being and mental health, we have a very strong psychiatric-led tier 3 for Xcamp serviceX Child & Adolescent Mental Health Service(CAMHS), if you like, but again schools identify needs and my service will identify needs where there could be very, very useful intervention on this middle targeted XlineX level but a similar issue pertains in that area in that Xyou are dealing with staff that X the way the service is resourced and set up, you are dealing with children who are suicide risks, Xyou are dealing with children who are X the queries are about identified psychiatric conditions and there is a lot of XremedialX real distress for children and families in that emotional well-being, mental health area that XwereX we need to have a tier 2 (targeted service) XitX all needs cannot be met by a pointy end (specialist) psychiatric model service. That bit works very well for what it is supposed to work for but similarly there is a gap regarding targeted intervention there.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think the question, just to summarise, and it is a question for all of us, as Williamson clearly raises, and I think Kathy Bull probably as well, is do we want to be proactive or reactive. If we want to be proactive it requires greater effort and resources than we have currently got.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Okay, thank you. I wonder if I can then come on to an area we have alluded to which is the evolution of your management structure to deal with the Williamson Report so I wonder, without overloading us, because we are very simple people and trying to work this out, could you identify how your management structure has evolved or will evolve post-Williamson?

Mr. M. Lundy:

Once again, the major change to our management structure evolved pre-Williamson and it really was out of an identified need to bring together services. So the biggest change was that what was previously the

educational welfare service, the educational psychology service and the special needs support service have been integrated into one single service under the leadership of the principal educational psychologist as the educational support team. The benefit of that, of course, is information sharing and one central resource for information and there is not then an overlap in terms of, you know, the 3 agencies necessarily striving to take the lead with one child or one family; there is an identified lead with the child and the family. So it is a more effective use of information, it is more effective provision of services and it is a more efficient use of resources. That is the main benefit.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Who does the principal psychologist report to?

Mr. M. Lundy: Myself.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Yourself. Okay. Now, in terms of actual case management, and this is what I think we are all trying to grasp, we have heard about how there is a lot of co-ordination and sharing information, but do you work on cases, shall we say, where the ultimate oversight resides with the Children's Service but you are involved in helping them manage so how would you handle a case like that? What would be the chain, so to speak?

Ms. J. Forrest:

Certainly if the child protection procedures and review is in place then the lead lies with the childcare officer there, the person who is managing that. We will contribute to the review process alongside the school. We take tasks, if you like, from that. There is somebody else co-ordinating. So it would be both bringing to that process what our involvement already is and supporting the school to that and, as appropriate, taking tasks from that to support the joint work.

What might be useful, Brenda, is if you could discuss what might happen if a child protection concern is brought to our attention, and how we would work with the other agencies.

Ms. B. Cochrane:

Yes. What I should say also is that even if it were not raised as a child protection concern, even if there were issues where it was felt that some work needed to be done with the family, joint working sometimes takes place between officers of our department, chiefly Education Welfare Officers, and social workers. So, for example, if there are school issues and family issues, it might be that be that they will do a joint visit to the family and work together. So it is not always necessarily a child protection issue. With a child protection issue, as Jo has said, there would be an initial child protection conference. Out of that comes a core plan and we all have an obligation under child protection policy to be a part of that plan because it is very important that it is multi-agency working, that nobody is making decisions on their own, that decisions are made collectively. So we would be a part of regular meetings with those other agencies, relevant agencies, and we would work on parts of that plan that are relevant to us in Education.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Who is heading it up? The very thing the Minister said, who is being proactive and saying: "We are not putting enough emphasis here or we should be putting more emphasis there?" Or: "Did you make that phone call?" Who does that?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Basically, we were just underlining the fact that it is not us that is saying it. It is clearly described in the Williamson Implementation Report and Plan.  Clearly the important issues that are raised within this document are that, firstly, they need better organisation and management of the Children's Directorate and provide the right focus to manage existing resources, as well as utilise the new ones. Clearly it flows that all parties get involved in the process. Equally, you have 2 other elements. You have the

Children's Board that are supported by the directorate and then supporting that you have the Children's Plan and all of those at the moment are currently being either developed or considered. Obviously the regional existing proposition that is in front of us has certain elements of that development.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I take your point. There have been a series of these reports - not only in Jersey I should add - and in a sense they follow a certain pattern and they follow a certain resolution, you know, more co-ordination, everybody getting together and joint case management. But we have seen in cases and I am not for a moment suggesting we may be near this, but we do have to take note of it, we have seen in cases like Baby P and the Victoria Climbié case that there were visits, there were enormous numbers of visits but for some reason vital bits of information were not swapped or individuals representing certain services, like the police and social services and no doubt yourselves in that context, were not talking to each other. That is why I wanted to know in a practical way how have things been tied down?

Ms. B. Cochrane:

We are part of a multi-agency group also that meets regularly. So we have representation on the Jersey Child Protection Committee, both Jo and myself and another colleague. We have a multi-agency meeting with other agencies and voluntary organisations to raise issues on a regular basis. From my perspective having worked in education for 30 years we have moved hugely in terms of multi-agency working. I think the fact that we live on the Island that we do and that we know the people in the agencies and that we are so much more able to communicate between each other than a very large authority, I believe does enable much better communication.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

May I just ask how much does data protection still limit ...?

Ms. B. Cochrane:

In child protection, child protection is paramount. I cannot remember the exact wording, but it is

something to do with: "in the public interest." If it is in the public interest and child protection that overrides data protection. So clearly we have to be aware of individual's rights to privacy and would not overrule that unnecessarily but where child protection is concerned that is paramount and comes above it.

Senator A. Breckon:

Could I just clarify something there? When you are talking about the co-ordination you are talking about individual cases as well as policy, are you not? So you would have knowledge of the case which you would share with other professionals?

Ms. B. Cochrane:

Yes, but you are also discussing issues arising from cases and policies.

Senator A. Breckon:

Which is, in form, how you act.

Mr. M. Lundy:

May I just clarify in respect of the question that you asked about why these things break down?

Senator A. Breckon: Yes.

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think there are a number of reasons. If you look at the lessons that can be learnt from other jurisdictions, it is around quantity. You have got to have the numbers of people, you have to have the resources to do the job. So, for example, the Laming recommendations around caseloads is an important factor. If you have got people who are stretched in caseloads there is always the danger that a ball could get dropped. Then it is about quality. You have got to make sure that you can attract, recruit and keep the right quality of people. It is about training and development. Once you have got them child protection is a moving feast. It should be getting better and better and better. So you have to keep your people up to speed with new developments, new practices. Then it is about monitoring, both internal and external. So organisations themselves have to have processes and systems in place to review their cases. Then, of course, one of the things that you will see in the Williamson recommendations and the implementation plan is the introduction of case review mechanisms. So you have to have then, some degree of independence looking at those cases to make sure that all the things that should be done, are done. You want that actively happening at the time, not just after the event.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

What independence do you have in your system?

Mr. M. Lundy:

In terms of independent case review?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes.

Mr. M. Lundy:

Not to the same extent, and there is not the requirement to the same extent, as Children's Services would have. Because in actual fact we would be the contributors to any care plan, but we would not be the people who lead on it effectively. So, the care plan would be developed by the social work agency. The final part of the plan is around evaluation. That is whether a case has been successful or not, what can you learn from it? Of course, the one thing that the British Government quite clearly learned from their serious case review process - I am not sure whether they have continued to learn the lesson - is that professionals working in this, one of the trickiest of all areas, need to be able to express freely where they feel they could have done better so that services can learn for the future. If you have created a culture where those people - unless of course it is a mistake of proportion that cannot be forgiven -

cannot freely express that for fear then the outcome is that your services may not learn and develop.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

That is an interesting point because obviously there has been a lot of concern about the effectiveness; for example, whistle blowing in the system. We have some people allege a very defensive culture and staff will not speak out for fear of being victimised or ostracised or whatever. How have you created an open culture so that staff will not feel hesitant in bringing these concerns forward?

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think you are probably better off asking our staff about that. What we try to do is to ensure that (a) responsibility is shared at the outset. So people are encouraged to make contact and seek advice before they make decisions even if they have decided what the decision should be. So, contact their child protection co-ordinator in the school, if you are a teacher, and take advice if you are not sure what to do. Even if you are sure what to do, second check it. Likewise for the school themselves, to check with the child protection co-ordinator department and we always go through the process. If something comes to the department we are going to take advice as far up the ladder as we can get that advice in terms of social services, the police, et cetera and we will make sure that the responsibility is shared early on for taking the right and appropriate action. I think we do have a fairly open culture because of that because in a sense you are trying to put in safety nets so people avoid making the mistakes rather than making the mistakes and have to answer afterwards. But inevitably mistakes get made. So then you have got to have follow-up procedures that enable them to discuss either at line management level, or at a more senior level if it is a serious issue, what happened and how you can make sure that it does not happen again, what systems you can put in place. I think the secret is to ensure that the appropriate systems are in place because the human element is always at some time going to be suspect. People make mistakes. So you have to make sure that your systems protect people and support them so that you minimise the mistakes. You will never eradicate them but you have to try and minimise them.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I think I am picking up a theme here. You have mentioned earlier on £900,000 in the pot instead of £3.5 million. We talked about the ability of services that you may be working with, and I assume here we are talking social services, to be able to deliver at this level a certain number of obvious cases but not necessarily being able to respond at this level when it has been picked up. You are saying: "We are picking it up." I am picking up a message that says: "Maybe that is not happening." I am also hearing quantity and quality of staff, and I know that social services are running at one-third depth on staffing. The whole process of implementing Williamson is one of £5.6 million, whatever it is, the Treasury and Resources Minister has already had one cleaver at it and had a go, took out Laming, for example; took out advocacy services, which I think is an important, though overlooked, element of any service and obviously we are talking about ... at the moment I am picking up the bottle neck is the next bit of the pot, Williamson/Social Services, will they be able to put their contribution in to the co-ordinating network? Is that accurate or not?

Mr. M. Lundy:

You said that we are putting in ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

We are not playing the blame game here.

Mr. M. Lundy:

There is not, because I think we have great respect for our colleagues in social services who are working in very difficult conditions. That is the first thing I would say. What I would say is that we have the resources in the schools, the teachers are in there, the teaching assistants are in there, to notice things. One would hope that the majority of things get picked up. Inevitably everything will not be picked up. If it is picked up the question is, do you have the resources to act on it? It is at that point in time that social services will have to make a judgment about how they best use their resources. If they have high risk cases then those lower level things may not be picked up to the same respect. That does not mean that case just freezes and nothing goes anywhere. That means that the educational welfare service may take a bigger role, if it is an attendance issue, for example, and there is a vulnerability of a child around that, the educational welfare service would get involved. If there were issues to do with emotional support, we would make sure that the school counsellor was seriously involved. If it was around additional services and support from outside, the educational psychology service would be involved. The school would refer to the Children's Service if the level was such that it should, and refer directly to C.A.H.M.S. and to The Bridge if they felt there was an issue that should be picked up.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I was just going to go on to talk somewhat about external services and pre-education and post- education. What is going on? One of the initiatives that we are hearing praised is The Bridge services and the co-ordination of it. Would you like to tell us something about what is happening in that area for the moment?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

The Bridge was set up possibly 3 years ago where the vision was around, as opposed to fire fighting, having I think the analogy we use is stair gates at the top of the cliff instead of the ambulance at the bottom. I always hang on to that. The vision was about putting agencies into The Bridge to work together. That has happened successfully. Part of the work that we get praise for is the fact that midwives, health visitors, housing, youth action team and the Parenting Department, which I head up, are under the one roof, they are working together, they are talking to each other. The issue that became apparent was the kind of services we needed to develop and provide a menu of services for families and vulnerable in need. People within those services did not have the provision to do that, so that was where the parenting service linked with Brighter Futures, which is one of the charities at The Bridge, to develop ... and I have brought along, thought it might be easy, one I made earlier, to talk you through a little bit of what happens. I guess in keeping with the critical skills approach if I gave you 2 stars and a wish, if you like. The stars are for the fact that people are under the one roof, they are talking to each other, there is less likelihood of families falling through the net. The wish is that the partnership work is increased although there is the issue of sustainability. As I just said, because this programme's services are developed by the Parenting Department which is funded through Education, and that was post- Kathie Bull Report as well, she recommended my post become core funding.  In order for me to develop the services I joined with Brighter Futures to put on that menu of services, if you like, but that is all raised through the charity, so that is a clear issue of sustainability, to be able to do that.  That is the wish, to look at how we can get the agencies, if you like, within The Bridge to continue to share resources and work together but also how are we going to sustain this work.

Senator A. Breckon:

I should declare, I am one of the trustees of the Friends of The Bridge.

Ms. P. Tumelty (Parenting Programme Manager): That is the other charity that is ...

Senator A. Breckon:

Would you like to comment on the fact that that is accepted because it is the old St. Mark's School so therefore the community do not feel a stigma about going in there? Because a lot of people used to take their kids in to school so therefore the doors are open. Do you think that is a benefit?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

Absolutely. I have had this week alone probably - I think we keep a record now - 14 people have just dropped in to say: "What am I going to do with little Johnny?" Or: "What am I going to do with Mrs. X?" So that is happening again and again. That was what the vision was when we set it up.

Mr. M. Lundy:

The other thing that has happened quite successfully, it is not just because it was St. Mark's School it is because there are a broader range of people go to The Bridge than just those who may need help. So it is very mainstream as well. While vulnerable families are being supported in there, there are other people in there at salsa lessons. It is very mainstream in that respect so there is not a stigmatisation in

that at all.

Ms. P. Tumelty:

I think that is the ethos we are trying to really develop because many of the problems, they are very complex and multi-level so our approach has to be that way. Obviously the finances are a clear issue for this part of it, it is also about really I think in the Lord Laming Report he said it is about: "Stop passing the buck and swim together." That is the other part of what we really believe we are trying to do more of.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Certainly that acceptance I am picking up on the ground, I mean I hear people talking about jelly club today, or I cannot make an appointment there, or I am seeing my key worker at The Bridge, that is perfectly normal, acceptable and it is not something out of the routine, it is seen as routine, part of, there is The Bridge and it provides services.

Ms. P. Tumelty:

The dilemma for us is, as you will see on the chart, the referrals are primarily from Children's Service and schools, and that is picking up early intervention health visitors. So we have set this up. These programmes are evidence-based, they are research-based and I supervise and oversee them, so that is really in terms what we want to develop and continue. It is a model that we like.

Senator A. Breckon:

Could you just comment on the numbers that you are dealing with? Increasing? Is the complexity getting greater?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

I think so, Alan. When we started we thought, certainly at the very beginning, we would be working on the level one and 2. It quickly became apparent that we were getting 3 and 4 in terms of need. We have 158 families on our database that have been referred in, so they will all have a key worker - I am so pleased you have heard the terminology - and they will co-ordinate in terms of your question, Roy, as well, that care is co-ordinated by that key worker, they will speak with the childcare officer, they will speak with the school, if it is the school, and that is tight, and I make sure that is tight. That is very important to us.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

You have had all these referrals to you, has it ever occurred to you why these issues and problems have not popped up elsewhere or in another context?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

I think some of the cases will already be involved in another context, Roy, that is clear. They will be working with them but now, as you said, word of mouth will go out, people will say: "If you go to The Bridge you can work on your grieving, you can work on your relaxation and these programmes." So, parents are going to other parents and saying: "How do I get in there? How can I get there?" In order for it to be fair and equitable the whole issue is, as I say, the sustainability of The Bridge and the plan for the future is crucial in the overall strategic plan.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Initially you did try to have the youth service involved in The Bridge, did you not?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

Yes, and we have moved on there as well, Trevor, in that it has been overseen by Friends of The Bridge which is the other charity that funds a youth worker, a support worker that is helping oversee it. Mark Turnbase(?) and I have gone back into renegotiations and we are going to share a senior youth worker, a peripheric post which can oversee first tier and all the other different kind of satellite pieces of work and we are going to get them to oversee our youth club as well. Because clearly we are in an area which probably you could identify some of the most vulnerable children, so it was really crucial that those children had the same resources and support as they did everywhere else. So, that is our project at the minute that we are working on and we hope to have somebody in place by June, July.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

That is a professional person?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

Yes, at the moment I am overseeing it. I am not an expert in youth work but I am learning and I am getting advice from Mark. But it is really important we have that.

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think an important distinction to make about the services, because sometimes there is a blur, an important blur to be aware of, is that there are what we call the universal services, youth work is a universal service. We want to offer it to all the young people who want to engage. Then there is the targeted work, stuff that you would target at vulnerable and hard to reach groups. There is a slight overlap, so for example, with our early youth strategy, and the early youth strategy is as much to do with this as it is to do with universal provision. Within that strategy The Bridge is able to identify, for example, vulnerable families where the children might not get access to a nursery place or the parents might not think to give them access to a nursery place or not pursue it. The Bridge will identify those children at the earliest stage and make sure that they get a place either in the States nursery class, because that is where the priority for States nursery class leans, or if it is someone that has come in later on make sure that they get a supported place in a private nursery. There have been some great examples of where other agencies who have been working with families have noted that there is a very young child in the family who might benefit from this type of provision and pass that on and we would make sure that there is a nursery place for that child and that the child has, on occasions, available transport to get there, in fact. One must never underestimate the informal benefits that come from locating services together. It does not necessarily work from day one, people have to get used to working together and I think it takes a long time. But there are a lot of informal benefits that allow individual cases to get

picked up and supported.  That is the essence of early intervention.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Can I just talk about funding for The Bridge?  Where does that come from?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

At the moment all agencies bring their own posts, if you like. What I can explain is that the administrator who administrates the day-to-day issues and a caretaker's post, are funded through the services of an agreement that people pay to have a base there. So that is the cost. My post is through Education, so that is my costing. Then everybody else has their own budgets. The Brighter Futures is the issue of the funding and that work is done through the charity.

Mr. M. Lundy:

The Bridge was set up as it was described in the earlier strategy that went to the States. The renovation of The Bridge was done through resources in Education, Sport and Culture, technically in the schools and colleges team. The leadership of The Bridge was a secondment from the schools and colleges team to The Bridge. This was about bringing together agencies so the agencies out there were already being resourced somewhere, so let us get those resources into the building. But of course The Bridge has built on that and now has developed programmes that they would wish to resource and most of those programmes now are dependent on charitable funding. The concern is, of course, that that may not be able to be sustained particularly at time of economic difficulty.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Are you getting more warning bells yet?

Ms. P. Tumelty: Yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I am hearing a success story, I think?

Ms. P. Tumelty: Yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Where does the expansion come from? Or is it that we are not at that stage? Is there a case for another Bridge?

Mr. M. Lundy:

The Bridge does not stand alone because there is another low key but similar project which is run in partnership with the N.S.P.C.C. (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) at the Pathways Project at Samarès school. We are currently in discussion with N.S.P.C.C. about the possibility, it is very early discussion at the moment, of expanding that project to another area in Jersey.

Ms. P. Tumelty:

I think one of the issues is that The Bridge, what it sets out to do is 0 to 19, the cradle to the grave really.  That is the distinction that will have to be made in terms of what you increase.

Mr. M. Lundy:

Of course, the Children's Service are partners in these projects and particularly in the Pathways Project as well.

Senator A. Breckon:

I am just wondering if somebody could comment on vulnerable children and let us say, looked after children, about their education.  How does that happen?

Mr. M. Lundy:

Looked after children for the most part are educated in mainstream schools. It does not happen any differently. What perhaps happens differently is that we monitor very closely the education progress of all pupils, but we would want to know how our looked after pupils are doing. The only difference, I think, in normal school arrangements would be where a looked after pupil might be suspended from school, then there are arrangements put in place with the alternative curriculum to ensure that the looked after pupil is not out of school or out of education during the period of the suspension.

Senator A. Breckon:

Is that intensive to do that sort of work?

Mr. M. Lundy:

The alternative curriculum exists at the moment, so, it depends a lot on the resources that they have available at any one time. They provide education for students who require an alternative curriculum, they also provide the education for children who are at Greenfields, and they would provide education for anybody who was between 15 and 16 years of age who would be there at the present. So if they have all the balls in there at once it is a challenge for them, and if that was the case then we would support them with additional resources if that was necessary.

Ms. J. Forrest:

They are stretched at times? At other times they have a little bit of flexibility. There was a long period when there was nobody in Greenfield.

Senator A. Breckon:

In general terms are the demands on these services increasing?  Is that the trend?

Mr. M. Lundy:

This does not just refer to Jersey, this is the experience that we have seen in other jurisdictions. If you

create an alternative provision it does not take long before it is full. I think it is by virtue of the fact that there is a new way to perhaps deal with, particularly in the school system, some very difficult pupils who might be in a school. Some schools in Jersey carry a very significant inclusion agenda. They carry the inclusion agenda for the Island effectively, and that is your 4, 11, 16 schools. So we have resourced those schools to provide additional support for young people. Bearing in mind that you do not see permanent exclusion in Jersey, it would be where a decision was made that it was in the best interest of that student to find an alternative provision that better met their needs. Sometimes the alternative provision is around smaller groups, more attention, more focused curriculum, sometimes a bit more focused on the vocational aspect. For some students that is better.

Senator A. Breckon:

Is the general view of it, if you like ... it is known clients coming through the system or are we intervening into this?

Mr. M. Lundy:

There is evidence of many, many young people who have come through the system who have shown the signs of perhaps going off the rails, who have been very, very successful. The system works for many, many young people. Of course, some of the children and young people who have the most significant needs, who are the most vulnerable and perhaps who have the least support at home are likely to be the ones who will struggle.

Ms. J. Forrest:

I was going to say it comes back to this triangle. This (universal service) is good, this (specialist support) is very good. If you are identifying here (targeted support) unfortunately some of the people Mario is talking about who do not come out a success, you can look back and say: "We could have done this, this or this, at these points that might have been a different outcome for that person." There are children who are dealing with really adverse circumstances that it has not been possible to intervene with because of lack of resources.

Mr. M. Lundy:

Also it is important to note that sometimes for some young people a trauma in their lives might change their vulnerability, in a sense.  If they go off the rails a bit.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Probably a question for another panel perhaps, but when you say obviously we do not have permanent exclusion, but are there ever instances where frequent suspensions almost become a permanent exclusion? Does that ever happen?

Mr. M. Lundy:

No, frequent suspension cannot become a permanent exclusion because schools are limited to the length of time that they can suspend at any one time and in any one school year. But suspensions are sometimes used as a positive intervention. That might seem hard to appreciate but the fact of the matter is that if a relationship had broken down between the pupil and the school, or the pupil and other children within the school, sometimes it is important to give a breathing space to allow the school to put in proper plans to support and to allow other agencies maybe to work with the parents and their child. I think this is something Jersey has to be quite proud of because when you look at the way that the U.K. (United Kingdom) Government has in the last 2 years clamped down on permanent exclusions, as they call them, you will see there has been a significant increase in fixed term suspensions. So the fact that permanent exclusion does not exist is well, it does exist in law but the fact that it is not used it is not used because when we get to the point where a child's position in that school is no longer tenable the agencies are working very hard to make sure that appropriate provision is available and that the young person moves from there straight into the appropriate provision instead of, as you will often see in the U.K, they get permanent exclusion and then they have to find another alternative provision for them, so there is a gap. I think that that is a positive aspect.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

There were a couple of things I wanted to pick you up on earlier. Looked after children, if they are suspended from school as you know, I have taken an interest in this suspension issue, I have an informant who keeps phoning me about people appearing in certain spots. If they are suspended you say, Mr. Director, they are subject to formal education. They do not just drift around town or churchyards or other places?

Mr. M. Lundy:

No, looked after children are referred to the alternative curriculum.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The second thing is in terms of looked after children ...

Mr. M. Lundy:

That makes the assumption, of course, that they will turn up. Of course, if they do not turn up then it would be followed up.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

With the children's home where they reside?

Mr. M. Lundy: Yes, absolutely.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

One of the issues that this House of Commons Committee brought up, in terms of looked after children, which has been a known fact, of course, is the very low pass rates particularly in G.C.S.E.s (General Certificate of Secondary Education).  What are the figures like in Jersey in that regard?

Mr. M. Lundy:

I cannot quote the figures at this point in time. We break those statistics down and look at it by group, we look at it by gender, we look at it by whether the children are looked after or not, but I do not have the breakdown of figures at the moment but we could provide that.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: It would be useful.

Ms. J. Forrest:

Those figures are in the appendices to the report on the effectiveness of the Children's Executive. I can update you on that particular young lady who has come through d'Hautré House, a looked after child, who is going to university this year.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Good.

Ms. J. Forrest:

We have some successes. We also have some children who are looked after who either of course the range of looked after children is that not every child is going to get exam results anyway, from their intellectual capability, but we do also obviously have some children who would be capable intellectually of getting exam results but because of all the other things that are going on in their lives they cannot bring what they have in them to bear at the right time. In these statistics nationally there is under- achievement, but we do have some significant successes and quite a lot of young people go to Highlands.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

We just touched on Greenfields and alternative curriculum and if they turn up, there appears to be, if you were to believe the stories in the press, a gang at the moment going around of a mixed aged group between probably 12 and 15. I have experience of one parent who is extremely worried about what is happening, but in general how are you coping with them? It happens from time-to-time, swings and roundabouts, is it not? Every now and then suddenly a group of kids appear to get out of control, and we have got some kids, I think, in Trinity it is big time now?

Mr. M. Lundy:

We know that one or 2 of our secondary schools are experiencing some difficulties with a very small minority of children, very small, majority of the children are absolutely fine. As one would expect young people, for whatever reasons, do tend to be rather challenging to authority. These are the young people who are hard to reach. These are the young people that one would hope that our range of services would generally be providing for and attracting in. So we would hope that the youth worker would engage with these. We have the detached youth worker project which is specifically about targeting hard to reach and challenged young people. We have the community development work which has been a resounding success, I think, and quite astounding to us all over the last 18 months. That is the community development officer who literally goes out and finds the young people and engages them in meaningful sport activities and things like that. He has taken that a level further and is engaging some of those young people in coaching courses, et cetera, and trying to help them develop their leadership skills. There are those types of broader initiatives in place and at the moment we are discussing this very challenge with our partner agencies, the police, Home Affairs, Health and Social Services, and looking at strategies that we can put in place to work with targeted groups of individuals who might create some difficulties from time-to-time, and work with them in a proactive way.

Ms. B. Cochrane:

My service, my education welfare service obviously is the service that is referred to if a student is truanting or refusing to attend school. Our officers work in a variety of ways with a variety of people looking to identify what the issues are. It could be anything, it could be that the child feels that they have been bullied, it could be that there has been a fallout with the school, it could be that the child is disaffected, it could be that family issues are causing distress in their life. We will attempt to work with the child and the family and other agencies to look for solutions, to look to get that child back into school. We do know, we know - which I do not think can necessarily be said of some of the U.K. authorities - the children who are not attending school. It is a very, very, very small minority. We are working with them, we are looking to see what programmes can be put in place to better suit them. With teenagers we have to gain their co-operation, we have to work with them, we cannot make them do what they do not want to. We are looking to engage with them, to work with them, and to find a better way forward for them, but they are challenges.

Mr. M. Lundy:

If you sort of compare what happens in a school today to the educational experience that we had in schools, all our secondary schools have electronic registration, so when the teacher registers a child in class the teacher will see automatically whether the child was in the previous class, or a class earlier on on that day. If there was a missed period the teacher can pick that up. The attendance statistics are collated regularly. The sort of technology basically at whole school level and letters automatically generated to parents to make them aware of absence. These are the types of things that help you stay on top of the issue. The senior educational welfare officer, Anna Keem(?), from the department can access any of the school databases to check on high risk children, whether they are in school. You can see there that what would have taken 2 or 3 hours to do a few years ago, where you ring the school and get them to check, is now quite easy. We are investing at the moment in an addition to that central system that will allow the educational welfare officer, indeed the educational psychologist, to be able to monitor the progress of children in the school directly by identifying a high risk list and seeing, okay, what has their school attendance been like? What is their educational performance like? Et cetera, et cetera. So that is post-Kathie Bull. That was one of the recommendations and that was what was rolled out to us from schools.

Ms. J. Forrest:

A couple of things just in terms of systems that we are doing. They are very few and there are some people who, following the hard work of Brenda's team, are getting back into school but they are not on a full-term timetable. There are also some people who the schools are working really hard with but the engagement issue means they may not be ... I am not only talking about a few children here, and that would arise out of joint case work with an educational psychologist. Every half term, we, as managers review those names and to update us about the plan and we keep them under constant review. It is fantastic to work in a jurisdiction where you can do that, and you know who they all are. We do not have any lost children.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Just one question while we are on there. Perhaps the borderline between education and criminal justice, an issue that has come up is the age of criminal responsibility. Would you have an opinion on that? I know it is not necessarily your field, but feel free, you deal with young people.

Mr. M. Lundy:

Professional opinion probably but I think that is probably a policy question for the Minister.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I have no view on that at the present moment in time.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I will offer you no comment, in that case, at this moment in time.

Senator A. Breckon:

With some of these cases, parenting, if it is an issue, could you have a referral, if you like, where you are asked to get involved with not just the young people but the families; to do that as a crisis issue as opposed to people coming to you, where they are identified from this area?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

When any other agency, Education or Health or whoever, come across a family the message I give is, they offer universal services first, like regular courses on understanding children. If they have a sense that they think this person is not going to take this course up or it is not going to be enough for them, then that is when we get them referred to The Bridge. Because that is when the case can be tracked and monitored and co-ordinated. That is what I spend a lot of my time training and speaking with other agencies to ensure that distinction is made. Handing out a flyer to somebody who is not able to go or is not motivated enough to go to something is not going to work. So the engaging part needs to be worked on with people who are more in need.

Senator A. Breckon:

You could get involved in working with, let us call them, a problem family and get in at that point?

Ms. P. Tumelty:

Yes, at the moment we work with the parents either in a one-to-one or in a group. One of the gaps as well, if you like, that we have put in there is the notion of family work. That is something I wanted to highlight as well. That we do not have a family therapy service on the Island at the minute and that is a real gap in terms of early intervention; and staffing difficulties getting worse.

Senator A. Breckon:

What is the general view on agencies, let us call them, things that are not government, about the work that they do, the funding and whatever else? Is this a third sector that is doing a good job, what are they doing? Is it known anywhere? Is there one source where you can track everything?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Clearly, my impression is that they are in some respect key to the provision of some of the services that we provide. There are good examples of that close working relationship, we talk about Pathways, matters surrounding children, working closely with Samarès School, as a for instance. We see that the mix and match of a whole range of different partners within The Bridge situation, we see the youth service working with various trusts, including the Princes Trust and others, again engaging those that I would term, or could be included in, the vulnerable category. Jersey Childcare Trust, another body that equally is engaged. I think that, yes, especially in our particular circumstances, we are a small Island, small community, that relationship can benefit everybody. I think there are issues, and I would just like to pick up on a couple perhaps which were skated over. If we are going to have a close working relationship and deal with matters when they are first identified, key is the ability to share information between departments and agencies. I do not know if any of you attended the 3Ds conference that was arranged a couple of months ago, but it was a very good example where in fact this I think it was the guy that was linked to the police that identified different elements in this child right up to 15, and it showed how all the different agencies were involved, but the information that was gathered by the different agencies was not shared therefore it was deemed that the result perhaps could have been avoided if that information and action would have been taken. That is a challenge for us.

Deputy G.P. Southern : In what way?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Because of data protection, because of the requirement ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

No, from my understanding of data protection, data protection does not prevent that sort of sharing.

The Deputy of St. Ouen : Obviously we ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

On the Island we do not have a great deal of understanding of data protection issues.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

All I know is that is an area that is being considered and dealt with, as we speak, because it is, and I

think everybody acknowledges it, key. Secondly, we have spoken about looked after children, quite rightly so, I would like to make the point that the Education Department is required, and aims, to provide for all children of all abilities including obviously the looked after children, equally the most vulnerable and including those with special needs. Although we have focused on the looked after children, we started speaking about Greenfields and other special facilities that we have available to deal with children in general. I think it is a point that needs to be clarified. These facilities are there not just for looked after children, they are there to support any child that has or finds itself in difficulty and needs special support. I further say, the final point, and it follows on from that comment, is that ... and it is an issue raised within the Williamson Report, do we just focus on the most vulnerable, the looked after children, or do we open our eyes to the many other individuals who could easily and do fit into the vulnerable category that need support? This is where we come back to demands for provision.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

How do we monitor then, what young people I used to work with would call, sofa surfers? Now, I would guess they would fall in that middle bit, they might still be attending education but clearly there are elements in their life that is not as it should be. So they have somewhere to live but they will be just crashing at a variety ...

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think this is part of ... and it is a big heading that fits everything, but it is the sharing of information. How do you pick up on the fact that the youth worker has recognised that there is an issue here? How do you pick up on the fact that at the preschool a parent is in need of support, because they are struggling with lack of parental skills? All of these issues are all elements and key if we are seriously going to address and deal with and provide the support necessary, not only to meet the needs of the vulnerable children but vulnerable parents and adults.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

Is it fair to say that comes back to the £23 million worth but £900,000 is all ?

If I could say, Minister, it is easy to get hung up on the issues of the past. It is easy also to respond to reports. It is important to respond to reports, obviously, and recommendations, but I think what the Island will benefit from is a children's and young persons' plan that lays out quite clearly what you believe for all children. It is what the universal provision is and how you would support and what agencies will support and how they will work together to support those who need the targeted provisions.

Senator A. Breckon:

Can I just put something to you, as the Chairman of the main panel, one of the fears - if that is the right word - I had in reviewing this, this subject I knew was bigger than Williamson. Then the question is, what do you look at and what do you leave out? For example, yesterday I had an afternoon with lawyers talking about the services they provide to the courts and things, we were challenging them on some of the issues. What we are keen to do is to include everybody who touches on the lives of young people, however that may be, good or bad - and we will hopefully have some findings of that - but to do that is not quite as simple as it seems because when you start looking for something you discover other things. We have had people who have come to us and said: "What about us, what about us, what about us?" We are still at that stage and we are against the steel to produce a report in the second ...

Deputy G.P. Southern :

The Chairman will be here in 3 years' time, if I let him, and I will be saying in 10 weeks' time, finish collecting, let us write.

Senator A. Breckon:

For example, there are things like Millies who provide a service when couples are separating and the lawyers quite frequently say to Millies: "We have a case for you." They are not very well funded and they operate with volunteers and other things from schools, as you know, on a Sunday morning. That

has been going on for about 9 year or more. But having said that somewhere they should be mentioned for the work they are doing because the children are vulnerable in a relationship break up, as we all know.

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I do think, though, that there are ways forward. I think that first of all we must not fall into the traps of the past, and I think the States are guilty of this. That we identify what our aims are and what we want to achieve, we then properly recognise what the cost will be and then we step it or we programme it so that you can properly identify quite clearly there are some immediate needs that we are all aware of that need to be dealt with, and there are some longer term aims. I would suggest, and I would encourage anybody, whether it is the implementation plan or any other major project, that we do that. I think then we can manage and deal with ...

Senator A. Breckon:

But to assist the process what we need to know really is all the agencies. So if there is anything on what they do, if they are doing it well, and they are under-funded then perhaps they need some more resources to do that and they can do that with a service level agreement or whatever. But, as I say, there is emerging issues, it would seem, where people on a voluntary basis or whatever are doing a lot of work already. So it is not just about what the system is doing, it is about people who are volunteers doing things as well.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

There is a dichotomy between the 2 different philosophies, if you like. You could look at, for example, Education and say, your core business is teaching kids, full stop. Anything else outside that is: "Ooh, it is a bit, is that really necessary? Is that really our role?" You look at The Bridge initiative and you look at Triangles of Need and you start looking that if you can get in there then you can save £500,000 on that person in 10 years' time. You cannot be getting into this political philosophy, if you like, that says: "Stick to your core, this is extra, somehow, it is luxury." That is not the case.

It is about recognising that whatever service is involved, and I suppose this is a major cultural shift, for educationalists it has taken place over 50 years, it is not about just teaching the kids, that is an output, the outcome is to improve the life chances of children. Improving their education is a mechanism for doing that. I think the thing that I am sure the States are conscious of is that when you are working with vulnerable children and vulnerable families, and indeed children who are perhaps on the periphery of that, who may never raise their heads enough to show that they warrant that support but still have to deal with some significant challenges in their lives - and I think that the children of today have to deal with challenges that the adults of the past only had to deal with - that there are other policies that will continue to create ... but one must be conscious that there could be other policies that could continue to create vulnerable children. There is a whole raft of policies that can affect the vulnerability of a family, housing policies, benefit policies, et cetera, et cetera. So, within that context that you are considering children and families and a children and young persons' plan, you have considered all those issues and how they will impact on the family.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

I have a feeling we are nearing the end. It is peripheral but one of the mechanisms by which families become vulnerable is an economic one and we are in an economic recession. Could I just ask the Minister has he put in any bids for additional money, the lifesaving funds, the £44 million that is coming by the Treasury into initiatives to support people through the recession? If so, what is he looking at?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

We have submitted a bid which I believe totals £2.8-3 million. It includes a number of different initiatives, primarily directed to dealing with young people choosing to remain at school because of lack of access to jobs. Maybe my Chief Officer will ...

Mr. M. Lundy:

One of the major strands in it is the development of a youth training scheme. Because one knows that if a young person leaves school and cannot secure employment then they can obviously get access to a benefit. The difficulty is if they are out of employment for a while and out of school for a while, we know, research tells us, that can be an impediment to getting them into meaningful work later on. The ideal thing to have would be a youth training scheme that is attached to that benefit. So in a sense you have got somebody in meaningful training, receiving a benefit. So in theory that is one of the strategies; to develop a youth training scheme and, of course, it will depend on how many young people will require access to a youth training scheme. The bid has been made in such a way that it is about being able to draw down according to need, not simply just take the money and develop the scheme. If the need is there the funding would be available and if the need is less than anticipated then less would be drawn down.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Nonetheless that then needs some definite decision early on if you want to set that up. The infrastructure has to be set up anyway, whether it deals with 20 people or 200.

Mr. M. Lundy:

Yes, steps are in place to ensure that that can be started as soon as possible, because of course, recruitment for that would need to begin after the May half term.  Applications would need to be coming in.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

One final question? A very big one, and in a way I suppose we should have started off with this. I wonder if you could each tell me, and there is no starter for 10 here, or it will not be held in evidence against you at a later date. What you think of the Williamson Implementation Plan? Is there anything you think should be there that is not there? Or are you generally happy with it? If we could start with the principal psychologist?

Ms. J. Forrest:

There are some things that are in the Williamson Report that have not necessarily got through to the recommendations.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: You think they should have?

Ms. J. Forrest:

There are certainly things that are interesting that do not track through but they obviously caught his attention. I understand that you have to focus your recommendations, do you not? Certainly, as has been evidenced in the discussion here, from my perception on education it can only be helpful to the children's education working effectively to improve their life chances, if partner agencies - like Xchild psychology, which, apart fromX child clinical psychology X, isX – are hugely under-resourced – XtheX and social services the better those other agencies are working that can support that middle bit (targeted support), the more we can all work together, which means that what we have in place and it is good what we have in place in education, but as the Minister said, there is only so far you can go just on that angle. Overall I liked Xthat planX the Report and I am particularly interested in the Children and Young People's Plan. I would like things to be coherent and organised in that way.

Senator A. Breckon: Thank you.

Ms. B. Cochrane:

I was interested in the idea of the post Minister for Children being streamlined and the clear lines of responsibility in that post.  I would think that would be something that would be worth following.

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think the report, by necessity, has had to have a fairly narrow focus because basically of the brief.

What I think is good about it is that it is about putting in place robust structures to ensure that there is proper governance, proper accountability and better resourcing of the services.  In terms of the structures themselves, I would not be in a position to comment because I am not a social services professional or health professional but if those structures are about the overall strategic leadership of services for vulnerable young people and their effective structures then it will make a difference.

Ms. P. Tumelty:

I think it was linked to that, one of the issues I suppose that we are trying to drive is the parenting strategy, which although it was mentioned in the Williamson Report it was also talked about a figure of something like £60,000 from N.S.P.C.C. to do a scoping project, but when I read that I thought:, "Well, that has already been done." So for me I suppose it is important that the parenting strategy has got political will and drive from the chief officers, because I think that will reduce the amount of vulnerable children as well.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Then you can just get the £60,000 ...

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

That raises the question of our Minister, I do not think we should let him off the hook.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

Yes, I thought it was very shrewd.

Senator A. Breckon:

Do you think Williamson has paid enough attention to the work that is already going on, say, in the Education Department?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

I think that in many cases it has highlighted the work. I think the issue is regarding the recommendations perhaps, and the emphasis that certain individuals have placed on areas of importance. Clearly in our view there are areas which we believe a 400 hour remit and we see it as working within the parameters that we are responsible for. If I can sum up some of my views, and maybe pick up some of the comments or reinforce the comments that have already been made. I am certainly keen to see that all vulnerable children and parents are properly supported. I am concerned that we might miss the opportunity to really deal with all of the issues relating to the vulnerable children if we focus on what I would deem as a relatively small but rightly important group of people. We absolutely need to have appropriate governance and inspection arrangements in place which will report on the progress and effectiveness of the services provided. I certainly want to see further development of an effective and proactive early intervention programme across the Island. Again, picking up some of the good parts of The Bridge, that delivers a programme not only with regard to the educational support to help those that need that type of delivery, but also enabling parents and supporting children within what I would call the vulnerable families. Finally, and I would say this underlines the whole plan, we need to ensure that the foundations of any new initiative are strong and secure because as far as I am concerned it is no use in starting a new plan unless we can be certain that it is properly sustained over the medium to longer term.

Deputy T.M. Pitman:

May I ask a final, final question? How much of a danger is there, do you think - because this is now such a political issue of pressures about whether it is school heads or section heads or whatever - that because of funding, maybe, or if it is just political pressure, that some things become just a tick box culture and not what we all want? Is there a danger of that because we are so in the spotlight now?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

If there is a danger it will be due to politics, I believe.

Deputy G.P. Southern :

It is a good quote for the report, yes.

Senator A. Breckon:

Finally, has anybody got anything they would like to say that we have not touched on or even just in conclusion?

Mr. M. Lundy:

I think the only thing I would say from a Chief Officer's perspective is that we are conscious that there is a fair amount of good work that happens across agencies. We are conscious of the good work that has been done in other agencies, and we are conscious of the good work that is in our own agencies. But that does not mean we are complacent. You cannot afford to be complacent when it comes to dealing with children and families. You have to be prepared to learn and develop. What we must not create is a risk reverse culture where people are unwilling to take the difficult decisions. Because if this was an easy field to work in then I do not think we would see the issues that we see today.

Senator A. Breckon: Anybody else?

The Deputy of St. Ouen :

Yes. I would just like to take the opportunity to convey my personal thanks to the panel for picking up the baton, as it were, and considering the Williamson Implementation Plan and the plan. I do think it is an extremely important area and I am sure most people sitting around this table feel the same. It is important that we get it right. So, thank you.

Senator A. Breckon:

We will now adjourn.  Thank you very much.