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STATES OF JERSEY
H ealth, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel Coordination of Services for Vulnerable Children
Please note that all clarification subsequent to the hearing provided by the witness is included in blue
MONDAY, 18th MAY 2009
Panel:
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman)
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier
Mr. S. Le Quesne (Scrutiny Officer)
Witnesses:
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St Clement) Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK)
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Good Morning and welcome. What I will do I will explain the background of the panel and the sub- panel and why we are here. My name is Alan Breckon, I am the Chairman of the Health, Social Security and Housing Scrutiny Panel of the States and under this we have set up a sub-panel to look at the Coordination of Services for Vulnerable Children. The scrutiny process is probably (inaudible). What we are actually doing is when things come before the States we can be asked to look at them, look at the issues, look at the policy decisions and look at what is going on and report. The idea is that we would inform any debate or report on the future services. The other members are Deputy Trevor Pitman, who, we understand, is on his way; Deputy Roy Le Hérissier and Deputy Geoff Southern . We take this really mainly for our own benefit but it is a matter of public record, unless there is anything you want to say that you feel is confidential or cannot be said at the end we adjourn and we can have another session in private, which we could do that if you feel you need to do that. The other thing after the session after we have asked you a number of questions and supplementaries there will be an opportunity for you to say whatever you want at the end something you might have forgot or something you think is important that we have not covered. For the benefit of the tape can I ask you to introduce yourselves and perhaps just say a little bit about yourselves so that we know why you are here.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St Clement):
My name is Nola Hopkins and I am a Manager of the NSPCC Project Pathways in St. Clement in Jersey. It is a community family support project predominantly working with families of preschool children. However, we do work within schools of primary age. Do you want me to say anymore?
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): No, that is fine for now. Yes? Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC):
I am Peter Liver, I am a Director with the NSPCC. I have to say I would have asked one of my managers to attend today, Philip Durban(?), but unfortunately Philip was not able to attend; his mother died last week so I thought it was important that we had a senior manager over to meet with you. My role, I guess is twofold really, I have an operational responsibility for a lot of what the NSPCC does directly with children across the UK but also a strategic role, I guess, with a number of other colleagues in terms of setting the direction for the organisation for the future. My involvement in Jersey directly, I guess I have a number of managers who have reported to me over a number of years in terms of Jersey itself and have had some direct involvement in a number of matters, particularly over the last two or three years and have come into contact with a number of colleagues directly in Jersey.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
If you could just expand, perhaps, as an introduction on the work of the NSPCC at a national level, especially with vulnerable children, and also how that translates to a local level and whether it is strategies, policies or some things we are doing here that you are not doing in the UK. With questions, if you want to share them or one or the other answers, whichever way you feel comfortable with.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, Chairman. Well, I will start with the more strategic view of the NPSCC and Nola can give you a little bit more detail about the work that she does. Then there is a little bit in between because we have assisted in Jersey and a number of other areas over the last 18 months really. The NSPCC is a national organisation. Its primary focus, obviously, is child protection of vulnerable children. It is a very historic organisation over 120 years old. It works across the UK. We have services in Wales, Northern Ireland and recently started to develop services in Scotland. It is fair to say that the NSPCC, particularly over the last 10 years, has really transformed itself quite significantly. It has grown significantly now. As an organisation its annual expenditure budget will be something around about £140 million. We employ around about 3,000 people. Since 2000 it has really trebled in size. It has focused heavily in the last 10 years on, if you like, promoting what has become known as the Full Stop' campaign; the idea that we should try and stop abuse happening is the focus of the NSPCC. I think in effect it has three distinct components to it as an organisation which does set it aside from some of the other charitable organisations that work particularly with vulnerable children. We deliver services so we work directly with children, but we also work quite hard to campaign on behalf of children as well so we have a campaigning side to our organisation and we do a lot of policy work, so the NSPCC, rightly or wrongly, has a significant input at a national level, particularly with Westminster in terms of helping to, if you like, inform the direction that the Government takes in terms of working to protect children. What do we do with children? Well, it has become quite a broad church. I think historically the NSPCC was seen as an organisation that tended to work at the sharp end, as we call it, at the hard end of child protection, children that were already identified often known to the system, as it were. Over the last certainly 10 years, as I have said, we have become a broader church, I think recognising that the organisation needs to make a contribution more across what, I guess, we call the spectrum of vulnerable children. So, we do work still with the hard end, we do investigative and inquiry and assessment work, particularly on behalf of local authorities where there are, what we would call, more complex cases where there are cases perhaps the local authority has been involved with for many years, families get quite stuck and they will often ask us to be involved in doing, I guess what you might call, a more independent assessment work with that type of family. We are involved still in doing work around what we call complex abuse and we have had some recent involvement with Jersey directly in the investigations that have taken place around the care system in Jersey. We do a lot of work around sexual abuse, so we, on behalf of a number of probation services in the UK, provide services to adult sex offenders, so group work programmes to help in essence manage the behaviour of identified sex offenders, so those that have often been convicted either been in prison or are serving some community order. With the UK there are a number of what are called accredited programmes which we deliver on behalf of a probation service. We do quite a lot of work with young people who pose a risk to other young people of sexual abuse. Across the UK probably the NSPCC is the biggest provider of those services now. Then we move down, I guess, to you will be aware the NSPCC historically has had a 24- hour helpline. That has generally been a helpline where adults could ring to report concerns about children - that continues - but most recently, some three years ago, the NSPCC has now taken on what you will know as the Childline service, the Esther Rantzen service. Childline became a part of the NSPCC some three years ago so it is the NSPCC now; it is a service within our organisation, and again, there will be children on the island that make contact with Childline. Then we start to move down, I guess, towards what we tend to do more of and have done more of in Jersey which is what we would talk about as at the preventative end, the idea of working with families where there are elements of concern but that it is not escalated to the full blown child protection concerns. We provide a range of support services to families in various local authorities in order to try and prevent children coming into the system being recognised needing child protection services. The backdrop to most of our services is it is done in partnership. We tend to have partnerships locally and that will dictate to a degree what we provide locally. Many of those partnerships are funded partnerships. That really is a snapshot of the NSPCC.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Just a question arising from that really, can you just give us the general outline of how you are funded; you obviously do some fundraising yourself but do you get contributions from local authorities and national government and you charge for your services as well. Is that generally how it works with you?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Again, the NSPCC is rather different. I guess we tend to talk about the bigger charities, the big five charities: Barnardos, Action for Children. We are rather different in that we, historically, have sought to maintain that high degree of independence around our funding. So, currently around about 80% of our funding comes through what we would call voluntary income, in other words raised through donations, and around about 20% comes through what we would call statutory funding, in other words the majority of that comes through local authorities who will receive a budget from the Government. I have to say we are at the moment party to a formal partnership with central government around increased funding for Childline. One of the concerns about Childline historically, and why the NSPCC came to take it on, was its funding base was rather insecure but it was not in a position to answer all its calls which seems rather bizarre that you have got young people ringing asking for assistance and that we could not answer the calls, so we have got a formal relationship to expend Childline over three years that is funded through central government. I guess, as I say, 80% still comes from local fundraising. Now, maybe to deal with I am sure a question that you will have is about: well, what is the picture on Jersey? Perhaps it is easier to deal with now. I mean we spend something round about £300,000 a year in Jersey. We will raise, from Jersey, in the order of £200,000 to £225,000. So, in essence you might say nationally we will subsidise some of what we do on Jersey through what we call generic donor giving, in other words people will give to the NSPCC, not with any particular target in mind but they wills ay we want to support the organisation and that generic fund is used to, if you like, top up, subsidise locally where we are not able to raise enough money to support the services. In Jersey we, historically, have had no formal funding partnership with the States ever.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Can I ask Nola perhaps if she can pick up on that and relate to from the national to the local level and perhaps describe the work that you do here, how you use the funds here and perhaps you could touch on your client base as well?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Okay. I think it is quite interesting to say that it is only in recent years that we have actually had a project in Jersey, although NSPCC have been involved and given money in the past, and I know that they gave some money to Minden Base several years ago. I just really want to tell you that it came about, while we are here, because the doors recently opened and it was because there was a multi- agency steering group of directors that were concerned that children (Clarification inserted 02.06.09 - starting reception class at primary) when they started school were not ready for learning. At this meeting they were really concerned why. So, NSPCC was commissioned to do a piece of research to find out what were the gaps in services (Clarification inserted 02.06.09 - for pre-school children and their families, as well as the need to identify current services and good practice.) I applied for the post. I have got some research here. That is how it started. I looked at gaps in current services and why families were not using them if they were there and what did need. From that it was decided from Jersey that NSPCC could come on board and set up a very mini such as those in the UK. what you would probably call - Sure Start in England, but it was very different obviously in Jersey (Clarification 02.06.09 - because of the small scale). So along with three staff practitioners, two and a half posts, I think, and myself and an office administrator, we set up Pathways and for those of you from education you might know Peter Le Breuilly who was head of le Squez primary school at the time which is now called Samares. We eventually moved there and I think that was fantastic that we were based in a primary school because the idea was to reach people in any area of need and it was looked at that the school catchment area. was that. I think the important thing was to have a non-stigmatised service, so we worked very hard to get to know the community. We ran and started off with universal drop – ins but it was not just a place where parents came and sat and had a coffee, it was very much working with the parents' interaction with their children, so we looked at the whole child aspect of it. We developed in that way, we do work in partnership with agencies but not on a financial basis. We open our doors and we allow them to our come and enable them to use the tiny premises that we have got, "You know, you're welcome to come down," but if we have got a room available we will let them use it, but we work with them. Now, we run eight different drop- ins a week, perhaps, which is working with pregnant women and fathers - and we have got two teenage dads attending at the moment. coming to our groups - we We work with a midwife so we are looking at a vulnerable area there, you know, babies nought to one are most at risk. and then were recognising obviously already There has been a domestic violence conference in Jersey and we are talking about domestic violence in pregnancy as well, so we are working very much with the midwife, with this group, we work right through (clarification 02.06.09 - until children start nursery.) then of course we do a lot of work with nought to ones because again it is a very vulnerable group. But where I think we are slightly different is that it can be universal service that we are picking up people living in the area, but from other agencies, social services, health visitors, doctors, psychologists they can refer people - because they want these people to use our specialised service. So actually it can almost be island-wide for specialist work. In amongst what is looked at is a non-stigmatised service, (clarification 02.06.09 there are actually targeted families and many child protection cases so we are meeting need). The staffs are very skilled and expert in what they do. It is about preventative work, but obviously we have got people at different categories, as I say, they can be referred for different reasons, and it can be that (clarification 02.06.09 we work with families wanting their children to be returned to them.) they are hoping that the children are in care coming back, we are supporting them in that way or separations, lots of different reasons. We do have casework as well and that is working for the NSPCC as child protection agency. We work closely with social services so we have good record keeping (clarification 02.06.09 in line with UK NSPCC and Government standards), we have stats, and I am very proud to say that NSPCC has very high standards. so we have a lot of
cases like that with this small team.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
Can I ask you, Nola, you say you researched and you found gaps in the service, how do you relate to social services, what is your formal relationship? If you for example find other gaps in the service or you find other things that are not perhaps as you would like them, what do you do about it, how do you
deal with that?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Well, the research (clarification 02.06.09 - findings have helped in this matter. I think agencies wanted to provide a better or more effective service.) brought out that when I talked to parents and professionals of different levels and different agencies - and I interviewed over 300 parents - what came out of it is actually they wanted the same thing but the professionals gave different reasons why it was needed. What parents wanted was somewhere to go. I mean the quotes were there was no heart in the community'. They wanted somewhere to go with their children with their living conditions, their isolation, their mental health, their depression and not having any family support they found it hard to go somewhere and it was not easy to just go to the beach. I have quotes that they did not attend speech and language because (clarification 02.06.09 - the service was based at Overdale and when you have got two buses to get and other children to school they did not make appointments for these other children and that happened in lots of different services. Professionals were saying, "Parents don't make appointments; they don't care," so actually they were right that parents did not make it and parents were missing appointments but agencies did not really understand why. Since then I remember a speech and language therapist saying to me, "I never book a 9.00am appointment for a parent; he's had a new baby as well," so it is understanding (clarification 02.06.09 - service users and making services accessible. . If they had not had good parenting themselves they did not know about all the things they can do with their children; they were not confident about it. They wanted somewhere to go so out of the findings that came - and the other agencies wanted it - a place that had everything. We do not have everything but we have a lot where parents can go to meet their needs and that is where the partnership agencies have worked with us on this. (Clarification 02.06.09 -It was a new way of working for agencies, coming to the service user, making their service accessible. We encouraged this). health visitors meet us regularly, they will meet parents; then we have got speech and language (clarification 02.06.09 - Service working at Pathways one day a week; the midwife comes in; what we do when social services have got care planning meetings, if their client lives in our area, the meeting happens in Pathways; it does not happen in town. That is what people deserve really, I think. We do not charge; we need the money but we do not charge people to come and use our premises. and that is how we work.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
Just brining your thinking together then, Nola, are you saying that a lot of our services are structured in a very singular, top/down basis and we need to develop much more the grass roots delivery of services in a much more coherent way and in areas where there is apparent social need or there is a concentration of social need?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Yes, I think you need both. I think you need the top end but you do need the grass roots, you do need preventative early intervention as well. I think people do work in isolated ways. It would be good if there was a coordinated review to look at this.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
When you relate to all these services or do not relate or the parents do not relate, as the case may be, have the realisation dawned with them that the services are being offered in a very fragmented fashion?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
(Clarification 02.06.09 - Well, for us, where people have come to Pathways we have statistics that evidence things have really improved for them. If it is on site or if it is accessible to them they will use the service, yes. Some agencies say it comes down to resources for them.)
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Generally are you working with the under-5s?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Predominantly under-5s but we do work with some primary age, mainly because there may be younger children there or if it is a specific piece of work that we have been asked to do because we can do it, we will do it.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
You said about statistics; what is the pressure on your services? Is it on the increase or is it fairly flat or is it going down?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
We cannot meet demand at all. I can't accept this The more we work, and word gets out that they come along and ask us to do it but we are a very small team and we cannot expand.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
I am going to pinch Geoff's question because what he says is if we had a magic wand and said to you, "We can make this happen," what is it - premises, staff, money - to meet the demand? What do you need?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I think there are two things really, isn't it, it seems to me what Nola is suggesting and forgive me I will talk about the UK because obviously you will be familiar with the whole Sure Start agenda, what was the Children's Fund and they are fine words, but what they were about were about making services accessible to where there are particularly vulnerable children making services accessible to families. Clearly they have had some success and I think one of the things is about accessibility. Clearly, and I think Nola is right, where there are families in need, where there are families with vulnerable children I think what we know is they need access and the idea that they will travel a long way, that they will book appointments and turn up, it just does not happen. I think one of the real ways to work with those families is you do need to reach out and you need to break down some of the barriers that exist particularly in medical services where if you do not turn up for two appointments you go off the list. Those sorts of things you really have to reach out to these sorts of families. So I think access is a key, is something really we/you need to think about on the island and I think targeting. Again, interestingly there clearly will be areas where there are increased vulnerability within the families and again I think one needs to think about that and how one targets that. Your question about integration I think is interesting. Again, I think certainly in the UK, where services have been very disintegrate, in other words they are very much in silos that families have to go through a number of assessment processes depending on which type of services they are receiving, then I think there is an agenda to work hard to try and break that down. I am not suggesting that it is right; many local authorities still continue to struggle but there has certainly been progress made where there has been integration. So, for example, the whole integration of education, social care and health has been in many ways successful, I still think there is a long way to go and I think that is something certainly my experience of contact with Jersey is I find it quite difficult structurally to understand the relationships that exist if I am being honest. I know that is acknowledged. Actually can I just come back because your question earlier was about: how else do we, if you like, flag up/reflect concerns, ideas and suggestions. We are also, and have been now for some time, represented on the equivalent of our LSCB and Philip Durban who sits on that panel, has done a lot of work with June Thorburn(?), so within that arena we will have opportunities to talk to senior colleagues and Philip would there have opportunities to talk to them, share practice and I think that is certainly the feedback that I have had that significant progress has been made in the last year
within that for a which is clearly again within the UK has been made to be very accountable.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
I presume you have both read the Williamson Report. The $64,000 question: can you give us your analysis of that report and whether you think it is meeting the kind of needs and issues you have picked up about the system here?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes I was aware obviously - perhaps I need to declare - within the timescale of Williamson we were also, the NSPCC, actively involved in supporting the police investigations that were taking place into one of the care homes and I am happy to say a little bit more about that for you as well. So I was aware of Williamson and the drivers behind it and looked forward to the outcome of it. Do I think it, if you like, hit the mark? I think there are a number of things in it that are key. I mean clearly, and it is logic, if you do not have the staff to do the work then the work will not get done and Jersey faces the same challenges about workforce issues as we do in the UK. At the moment why would you want to become a social worker is the question really, and I do understand and am very aware of the difficulties that the islands face in recruiting social workers. Flagging up the issue is obvious, what the answer is I am not sure Williamson answered that and I think one is going to have to think out of the box if you are going to attract a good quality workforce of social workers to the island. I think one might have to think rather differently about that. Interestingly the NSPCC has had discussions with colleagues around the whole idea of secondments about staff being able to come and work on the island but not necessarily live on the island. I am an advocate of that and I have to say I have not seen a great deal of that happening but I think one if going to have to think outside the box. I think Williamson was right to flag up about workforce issues. I think the whole concern about lack of integration, if you like, and looking at management structures, I think that is right, I think that is important, but I think the other factor which for me is key which Williamson flagged up and I probably would say this because we were spoken to about it was about the need for clearer planning. I struggle to see a strategic children's plan for Jersey and I have had lots of documents given to me that say some really positive things about Jersey and why Jersey is a good place but what I do not see is very clear strategic planning and I think unless you put in place a very clear plan with some achievable outcomes - and they are some fine words - then I think however much resource one tends to throw at children the evidence would suggest it does not make a huge difference. I think priorities are going to be really, really important for you moving forward. I think that at the heart of that, which Williamson did flag up, was about planning.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Do you think that was largely informed because we had three like corporate parents? Do you think that is where some of the problems start?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
To a degree. I think the whole idea of having one focus, a Minister for Children, I think has merit but I am not sure that that in itself creates the necessary vision for children. I think it is an officer task. People are paid and they need to be able to deliver effective plans that you guys can measure progress against.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
You just mentioned the key words measurable' and achievable' in terms of outcomes. Have a brief think, where would you be going, what would you be saying?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Again, to declare an interest, Jersey colleagues have had some conversations with the NSPCC, with me, about how we might work together to put in place an effective plan and I think the first thing is having a look round at what has worked elsewhere. I think there are some examples of models of planning around children that have really made a difference that one should draw from. I mean I am an advocate of something called results accountability' which is what it says really. It is about putting together a plan that has got at its heart some achievable outcomes. That is not about setting things for 20 years, it is about saying in the next year what is it that we think that we can make a difference for children on jersey, what are the key things that you want to measure making a difference on? So whether that is about your referral rates in terms of child protection or your number of children in care, then have a very accountable plan is what I would say; not a terribly visionary one. I am sure you are familiar with what is called Every Child Matters'. I mean one of the positives of Every Child Matters' is it seems to me is a fine statement but what does it mean? Well, I think we have made some progress because we have set some very, what you might call, concrete measures and local authorities are held to account for those. Now, I am not saying that it is everywhere and you will see across the UK some authorities have made much more progress than others, but that sort of approach is what I would say is really, really important. I do think, if I am honest, Jersey will need some assistance with that.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
One of the issues with the plan which we have struggled with is the management structure within child, health and social services, the incredible layers of management, the very complex management that appears to apply in the residential side and then the management of the other. We always assumed that social work organisation was based on the fact that that the people on the front line do the bulk of the work, they carry enormous responsibilities and their supervisors are their mentors, their supporters and only managers in a business sense in a rather sort of limited way. There is an inverse relationship there. Do you think, and this is very pointed, the management structure we seem to have been left with is a good one? The second issue is: one of the assumptions is - and of course it came out in this Channel 4 series last week on fostering, that very interesting series - that fostering will lead to a reduction in the numbers in residential care to quite small numbers is a valid assumption?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Two or three questions there, maybe three or four questions.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Sorry, he always asks two or three questions.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour : I have to get them in quickly, yes.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Nola, do chip in as well. I mean maybe start at the back really, the fostering question. I think the evidence in the UK is if you can put in place good fostering structure arrangements then, yes, it will lead to a reduction in residential care. Do I think it will exclude the need for residential care? I think no is my view. I still think there will be situations where you will need to be able to access what might be deemed quite specialist residential support for particular complex families. In reality whether that has to be available all the time on Jersey or whether you look elsewhere might be a model that you might want to consider because I think clearly it is not something that one is going to be called upon all the time but I do think an emphasis on fostering is the right direction. I think that is the way to go. I think that direction needs proper specialist support, proper training and proper resourcing. Again, I think in the UK there is a mixture of the market. The private sector has grown considerably in fostering and adoption in the UK. Is it altogether well monitored? I do not know. I think there is some complexity but in principal I think it is the right direction. Your question about management and management structures, I mean I am not going to duck it but I have to say I am not familiar with the detail of all your management. Having said that, when I have been involved in some dialogues more recently with more senior management in the States, I have found it terribly difficult to know who has responsibility for decision making. I think that presents a challenge. Clearly one of the drivers, again in the UK, has been and it started first time round, I think it has been emphasised a little bit more the second time round is that very senior managers have to be accountable. So, people like myself are held to account and more recently the emphasis in the UK on the UK and spotlight on serious case reviews, for example as demonstrated, people like myself are being made more accountable for what goes on. I think from where I sit it looks overly complicated which probably compromises some level of direct accountability, but I guess my other view is whatever structure you have will only be as good a s the managers that you employ. I genuinely believe that managers who are working in childcare should have a good understanding of the needs of children. I would say this but I believe that if you have had experience of practice of working with children and vulnerable families and you develop into management and management skills, that that marriage is a good marriage, because at the end of the day one of the reasons I came yesterday early was to, and it sounds a bit (inaudible) but Nola had an open day, a family day, and to go along and see literally hundreds of service users there at the school yesterday and meet people and hear about the good, the bad and the not so good of what goes on. That gives me a picture of Nola's team and I think it is that that keeps you in touch really. So that is my view.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Were you saying that you are not sure there is that skill and knowledge in the management in Jersey then of actually working with children?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I do not know the individuals well enough to be able to say that but I do --
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier : I know I am putting you on the spot.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, and I am being honest with you. I do not know is the answer. I do think planning is really important, I have said it already, and I think the managers have to be able to produce and be able to plan effectively. To do that I think they have got to also have a good understanding of what the needs of children are on Jersey, but it is very difficult for me to comment about individuals because I really do not know.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Sure. One other point then, in your experience how do systems that are very overcomplicated develop? What causes that? Because it would seem to be that is what you are suggesting of Jersey. Please say if I am wrong but that is what comes across.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I think part of the problem is we look to the system to provide the answer and I am not sure the system as a whole is the answer. I think it is a combination of good basic practice, good supervision, strong leadership and if those are in place then a system should work. Now, I think we tend to focus on systems rather than looking at have we got good leadership, have we got enough and well qualified staff that can do the work and have we got good management. Now, when I talk about management I mean supervision which is the key. One of the concerns that I think is often neglected when we look at systems is we look at the integration, we talk about things being disjointed but one to one supervision is absolutely key and standard. It will be very tight. Nola is expected to deliver one to one supervision to all her staff that is recorded and standards are set out and it is audited. Her manager will come and make sure that that is happening. That, I think, is really important. So I think they are leadership, good supervision, the right people, then a reasonably straightforward system that is pretty integrated, that is the answer as far as I am concerned.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
It has been suggested to us that within social services department, that possibly that role and supervision and support, and the thrust that is required in that, has to a certain extent broken down and that it is almost becoming us and them.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
I do not know if it is broken down or whether it has not been as strong. I would like to say - obviously I am at a different level to Peter - a lot of staff are front line(Clarification 01.06.09 - seem under great pressure). I have been in Jersey a long time . I started off in the health services a nurse, then I left and then worked in social services for years as a family support and then ran La Chasse which was the mother and baby unit, then I moved to the education (Clarification 01.06.09 - department for four and half years, to set up the) parenting services. I was very happy but I loved the idea of (Clarification 01.06.09 - working for the NSPCC, so) I was pulled to set up something for NSPCC. So I have worked in the States' system and enjoyed it but working for the NSPCC being in Jersey for a long time, it was very different and it was wonderful being part of a national organisation, but I have responsibility as a manager. What I liked about the NSPCC was that there were good policies and procedures and good standards and there was accountability. Jersey was different and it was wonderful, and Jersey, so easy to get things done. In NSPCC there are processess and I was in Jersey and I had to do it the NSPCC UK way and I think it is absolutely fantastic with the guidelines, (clarification 02.06.09 policies and procedures and standards. I as a manager am accountable and my team are accountable. and we have developed them. I have only got one staff member that who is a social worker that came from social services, and the others have not, but they have a lot of professional development and training. NSPCC really think training is important and I know when they go on child protection training in Jersey and other training, they come back and they are very confident in the NSPCC what they know as they and what they know is of good standards.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Nola is a good example. Nola was required to undertake a social work training course in the last two or three years because we believe that it is really key to good effective social work practice to have managers that are qualified. Nola was not so we have facilitated that; she now has her social work qualification. Sorry, you were going to ask something?
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Yes, something you said earlier about referrals. Everybody knows where you are, and build up your workload and whatever else, but how does it work the other way if you have an issue that you are aware of and you are referring to the other way to a known agency, let's called them so we can generalise, how responsive are they to you batting something back to them?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Well, if there is a child protection concern/query we will obviously go to social services and we have got strict procedures that we would follow that. Then we would ring if they have not responded. We want to make sure that they have given it a response so we would refer to that. We have a good relationship with health visitors because they are mostly young people or the school. We find that there is quite a good relationship that people would pick it up but we, as NSPCC, would but you do not just refer and ignore, you have to chase up. That, again, is a training and recording and writing of reports and all that sort of thing. We have to keep continuing if we feel there is a need to and sometimes we do.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
So you would have a case log, in effect which would say that something was referred say to the school, you would have a note of when that was and who it was.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Absolutely. We have everything. We record every email, everything. Sometimes we run away with it. When we go to case conference and corporate meetings we produce it and it is there. I am quite surprised, I have to say this, that a lot of agencies do not do it. and I think maybe your social services with the report, but (clarification 02.06.09 not always people of a lower level. I am so proud of NSPCC that we have got high standards. If any of our cases are called in, the recording is there, and I thank the NSPCC for that. I have learnt a lot with the NSPCC.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
It sounds a bit like we are banging on the NSPCC's drum but I think one of the messages is again - and perhaps I should have mentioned it earlier - in Williamson about the need for, if you like, audit and inspection, and, in the sense, an independent audit inspection. I welcome that. I think that is a real positive. Certainly in our organisation we have an independent audit inspection unit within the NSPCC. Nola's team has been inspected. It is about continuous learning. So certainly we would produce a thematic report, it would go back to the team, they would be required to produce an action plan of how they are going to improve but it is about improvement; that is the culture that we are trying to encourage. Then alongside that we have audits, so Nola's manager, Philip Durban, will be required to audit cases so he will be required to regularly go through cases, highlight for Nola any deficits. That structure is something that one should encourage as well.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
You mentioned, I think you said, listening to children or knowing children's needs. One of the things that actually fell from the package that came through to the States was advocacy. How important do you think they are?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Key; absolutely key. Very key. It would be very straightforward to deliver an advocacy service. I think again there are two things I would say: if one is going to develop an advocacy service, work to some advocacy standards, of development again with standards in mind and again the UK now as what are called national advocacy standards. So, any organisation worth its salt that is delivering an advocacy service that looks after children will be required to work to those national standards. I mean I would say this, wouldn't I, because we deliver a lot of advocacy services but I think there is real merit in having an advocacy service that is outsourced, in other words it has quite a strong level of independence. I am not saying it cannot be done in-house; there are good examples of where advocacy and independent-type visiting services are provided in-house but if at the heart of them is about absolutely genuinely advocating on behalf of children that have not necessarily got a corporate parent of an active parent, I think there is something about independence. So, if you came to the NSPCC and asked us to set up and run an advocacy service for you for the numbers involved we could set it up and run it within weeks.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
The other concept that has been talked to us about, some people have mentioned the concept of a Children's Commissioner, how do you take your --?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I have mixed feelings a little bit here really. I mean I think clearly keeping children on the political agenda is absolutely key and I am not going to deny that. I think investment in children is the future. I have certainly seen, working for and with many local authorities, the balance and investment between adults and children has often been very skewed as far as I am concerned, and again, I would say that. I am passionate about children and wanting children to have opportunities. Does a commissioner bring a spotlight that otherwise might help that balance be achieved? Probably to a degree. Again, I think a little bit depends who the person is. Yes, I mean I think that person should have a level of independence, they should be able to challenge and they should have some weight. I am not convinced this idea of a figurehead is the answer.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
When you hear Geoff's point about advocacy just falling away does that reinforce to you that this people who are making decisions actually do not really understand working with children?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I am not sure; that is a bit of a leap because, again, I think advocacy provision in many local authorities is quite a mixed bag in the UK. Clearly within the UK we have legislated for the need for an independent visitor service and as a consequence an advocacy service. So local authorities in the last four or five years have been required to provide it, it is not a choice anymore. Prior to that I think it was a mixed bag of services. So, I do not think the assumption that it is about management have not recognised the need. I cannot say if that is the case or not but I do think it is really key and can be so successful in helping shape the future of services for very, very vulnerable children. It provides a voice that otherwise I do not think is there. It is difficult; advocacy services are really difficult because inevitably you get conflict because often the advocate is representing something that in many ways the statutory sector does not want to hear and that is where the value of independence comes in. We have a number of advocacy services where we are funded but we have a really very clear service level agreement about the principles that we will work to. Fundamentally if we feel as an organisation that a statutory body is not listening to what the child is saying we will take that to the highest level and I will pick the phone up and ring up and speak to the Director if it gets to that point.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
Partly extending, one of the issues with Jersey is going to be obviously how we restore the morale and the role of staff. Now, there is a feeling and, again, maybe it is not that strongly addressed in the Williamson report. How do you develop a culture where staff can feel confident that they can bring issues forward that are going to conflict with orthodox management thinking, for the want of a better term?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I think it is a cultural change. I mean we can always talk about whistle-blowing, etc, but again policies and procedures are not simply the answer. I mean, again, many organisations, and I trust Jersey probably - and I do not know - has had a whistle-blowing policy - but I do not know if it has or it has not - but whether it has been effective is the key. I think it is a cultural change. I think it starts with supervision, I think it starts with team meetings, I think it starts with plans that are transparent so people can actually see what you are being required to do. I think where people, for whatever reason, they are not able to do the job there is real accountability and people need to see that. I think there needs to be a throughput within the workforce; I genuinely think that is important so I think change should be welcomed not feared. It is those things that I think led to a cultural change that led people to feel that they can be listened to. I mean I would hope, and I might be shooting myself in the foot, that if Nola was not happy, fundamentally was not happy, with something that her manager was doing she would contact me.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ): Yes, I would.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I would meet with them. That is the culture. That would be about trying to resolve a problem, it would not be simply about discipline or disciplining somebody. Of course that happens, but it is that culture of senior managers being accessible and listening to staff. I think it is really important that senior managers attend team meetings, they meet with staff regularly and they listen to them. Visibility; that is the other thing. In reality visibility of senior management in Jersey should be pretty easy if I am honest. I work across the whole of England and that is much more challenging.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Is that also about not burying problems as a department because that would probably be the allegation that has happened in Jersey?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, there is fear, isn't there? I think there is a sense of fear and you can understand that to a degree but it is that cultural change. If you promote the idea of learning, that we are going to learn, genuinely from top to bottom then I think that opens management up to being able to recognise mistakes, acknowledge mistakes but improve. That is not to say clearly if someone fundamentally is doing something wrong then there has to be disciplinary procedures and there has to be appropriate grievance procedures. For me that is not the answer to getting a joined up workforce if you like and a culture of being able to listen.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
Obviously the pendulum was very much in favour of keeping the family insofar as it existed in tact and not putting children in residential care. Do you think that led to a certain way of decision making which made it very hard for a social worker who had another view, that the family was clearly dysfunctional and the child had to be moved out, and that in a way issues or situations just rolled on and on because there was no clear point at which you could say, "This child is in real danger or the situation," not in obvious danger but all the factors are conspiring and the child should be removed but it just was not the done thing for a social worker to say, "Put them in care"?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, I think probably, again, you will have heard I am sure, the whole concept of thresholds and again clearly when you have a limited workforce you have a lack of social workers that the whole idea is to raise the threshold and as a consequence that seemed to be a natural response. I think it is the wrong one, absolutely the wrong one. I do think there has been a culture develop of not wanting to intervene in the family, keep families together at all costs. Now, clearly that has been challenged in the UK. There are particular, and on the back of Baby Peter, concerns that there are situations where statutory bodies do need to intervene and that will lead to children not being able to live in the family unit. Maybe we have got the balance wrong. Maybe the balance is wrong sometimes.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
Can I take us back to where we started with staffing? We have talked about support, supervision, training and possibly needing some innovative ways to recruit and presumably retain that staff - retention is an issue. How important to the whole thing is laid in compliance because that was attached to the end of it and there has been some debate?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, I mean I do think case logs are important but I think it is not just numbers, I think it is more than just numbers. I think it is about supervision and I think it is about having appropriate resources available to work with social workers. I think recording is important. I think the idea of just simply, "Right, we will only have ten cases per social worker," is a little naive as far as I am concerned. I mean you could have ten terribly complicated cases and ten not so complicated cases. I think it is a bigger package than that if I am honest, but I do think the idea of having a managed workload, which is probably a better way of describing it, is really important. I think, equally, it is important that social workers feel that they have good effective supervision; career path, really important.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
That is always a difficult one in Jersey because it is because we are isolated. The pattern may be that, certainly in other areas, that people come and do their three years and then the next is a promoted post but it is back in the UK and that expertise gets taken away. It is a difficult one. Especially we are increasingly are a fairly expensive place to live.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I mean one of the things we have had real success within our organisation because bizarrely we certainly a couple of years ago, three years ago, we went through a real phase of struggling to recruit. At one point the NSPCC was seen to be in the top quartile as an employer in the competitive marketplace but we had drifted away a little bit from that. We started to think about how we could contribute to workforce issues and one of the things that we developed within the NSPCC is the traineeship, which again is something that I think within the island could be though about. So the idea, in essence, is a distance-learning approach whilst employed to becoming a qualified social worker. I am not sure if it has happened in Jersey or --
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
A two year. They Social services fund a one- or two- year, isn't it, in Jersey.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
It should be 10 or 15 year. It is a pretty cheap way of doing it, I have to say as well to be honest.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Another issue; can I ask you if you have any experience -- and that is now the things they are implying apparently the courts in guardianship highlighting that thing.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK): Yes, we do.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Yes, and I know that is a service provided by the NSPCC. Is that on the increase?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK): Well, as a service or a need?
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): As a service, yes.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
The reason we have provided guardian services on Jersey have fallen out of an arrangement that we had on Guernsey. The NSPCC two or three years ago was approached by Guernsey when their guardian service broken down in essence. They did not want to, at that point, buy into what is called CAFCASS in the UK and they asked us if for a limited period we would provide an independent guardian service, which we have done. As a consequence we have more recently been involved in a number of guardian cases on Jersey as well. Do I think that the NSPCC is the answer to providing a guardian service on the islands? No, I do not think it is. I do not think it is needed. I think there should be a means to provide guardian services on the island yourselves.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): Independent?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, absolutely. The numbers have grown, certainly in Guernsey I have to say we have struggled. We were told originally it would be three or four cases a year. I think last year we had about 11, so they have grown and it is not still absolutely clear to me what the future is for guardian services. Again, sorry for saying this, but there would be logic to provide guardian services across both islands; to me there is some real logic there really.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Just something I want to come back to Nola on. Nola, do you know with families if there is any case history that traces parents, first, second or third generation, with let's just say problems within the families? Is there anything that comes to your attention? What I am thinking of is if we are going to have quality interventions which has been talked about elsewhere about breaking the mould then it that where we are because I've seen evidence from elsewhere that says with criminality and other issues that there are problems that are family related from early years and come through the generations. Do you have any evidence of that thing that comes before you?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Well, I think it is well documented in Jersey that there are families that generation after generation yes, I have seen that. I think in my experience, some of it is of children that have been in care as well in the system that then need support and then their children need support. So, I mean there is a lot of evidence of that and I just think, again, it would be early intervention but it would be something that is non-stigmatising; there are ways of doing things and perhaps coming from social work/social services is not always the right area and that is where, if there was a proper working together of coordinated services I would like to think the support was there. There is a limit, isn't there, when does somebody reach that point that they have the capacity to parent effectively; it goes on and on and on and we have seen that.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Something, Peter, maybe I could ask you to comment on, you might have more experience of this because we are talking a little but older age group than perhaps Nola is dealing with and we have visited Greenfields and La Moye Young Offenders Centre. They (inaudible) have a view of 14 criminality, at the moment it is 10 to 14. In Jersey we have a system of 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21 what are we doing with young people? In your experience is it fair to draw the lines at an age or are we all different individual in maturity and experience, and what are the dangers of mixing up somebody on remand with an older youngster if you know what I mean, a 20-year-old, who might me a hardened criminal at that stage? I mean where are we because they are still children in some respects?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, indeed. I mean the categorisation of age I am not sure is the answer. I do think what one needs to acknowledge that children and children's development is very different and young people's development and young people's needs are very different. I do think one needs to think about children and young people across the spectrum. One of the issues, again in the UK, is that 16 for many, many years was deemed to be the cut off point of service provision, so you would be in care, you would suddenly become 16 and that was it you were independent thereafter. Now there has been an emphasis on I think promoting services beyond particularly 16 to 19-year-olds and beyond as well and that has been quite important. I am not an expert on criminality, I am not an expert in that field but I do think that clearly older young people will have needs and it is important to think about those needs.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Can I just follow up there, I do not know if you are aware of this report from the Select Committee of the House of Commons looked after children, but there is a suggestion in there that perhaps care leavers need support in employment, housing - maybe those areas - even up till 25 because they do not have extend family perhaps.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I am sure that is the case really but I mean clearly one works within limited resources as well and you are going to have to acknowledge that.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
What is your experience of care leavers in the UK for support? Say if we take 18 and above.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, to be fair I have to say that the NSPCC are not heavily involved with care leavers. There are many organisations in the UK that are involved but certainly we work with young people that have been in care and that are in care and we will offer support to them beyond they are 16, 17 and 18. We have tended to push the barrier to offering support to young people higher of the age barrier. I mean a lot of the work that we do will be around what we would call therapeutic work with young people so it is about trying to help them overcome the effects of their experiences, their abuse. From a practical side I mean we are not involved in housing or welfare-type support, but the logic says to me that children who have been in care are terribly vulnerable, often many will have significant learning difficulties, unlike to be achieving --
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): Low self-esteem, absolutely.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Absolutely. As a consequence they are going to need support, so I think to offer some support throughout that period is pretty important. The other side of that though is obviously a number will become parents as well.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Roy mentioned something earlier, there has been a series of programmes on Channel 4 in the last week and some of the examples given in there were young people that were in fostering situations where they were in 20, 30, 40 placements, is that general experience?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Yes, I mean I think it is a real concern for us with a number of the young people that come to us will have had many placements. One has to ask the question why and I think it is what I came back to before and I think fostering needs to be seen as a real service and not something that you just do because it is seen to be a good thing to do. As a consequence foster parents need supporting, they need resourcing properly and they will need help with particularly complex children. They are not easy, let us not fool ourselves, this is not about simply clothing and feeding them; these are children with complex needs. I think there has got to be a package, and that is how I would describe it, built around the foster placement and sometimes my experience is that package is not there. It is deemed to be we can place this child and it breaks down. I think that is terribly sad, terribly sad.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Do you think with a package of employment measures, if you like, are we heading towards perhaps professional fosterers if you want to call it that?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I think that is a debate that is around at the minute and I think there is some merit in it really as well, but it is expensive. It is resources again, isn't it, I guess. Yes, I could see some merit in that.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Do you think there is a public standoff because of publicity over certain cases about volunteering now?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Again, I am no expert. I suspect there is some level of reluctance but I think those that are genuinely interested for the right reasons will get beyond that to be honest.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Can I just sort of maybe rephrase that, in Jersey there is perhaps pressure people do not have a spare bedroom or you have couple where they are both working because of economic pressures and the rest so because of that maybe we are not getting people coming forward to volunteer because you do not have one person or other at home to do that because Friday night or Monday might be okay but then what do you do with --
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ): I thought Jersey was doing quite well with their fostering.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Well, in 2000 there were 73 and then after the (inaudible) there is 31.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
Certainly we have had mixed messages on that, some we have spoken to are very confident, "Yes, we are doing a new drive this year and we expect to have a new set of families," however, other people are saying, "Well, hang on, where are they getting this optimism from." We have done very well but there is a limit on an island like this to how far you can go.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I mean it is difficult. I can see the challenges undoubtedly and I guess that does then have the potential for a more professional orientated provision is maybe something that I guess clearly the focus on Jersey and the media spotlight more recently on some of the matters I think there is something to overcome there in terms of confidence really.
Deputy T. M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Accepting what Geoff said, taking it the other way, within such a small geographic place as Jersey is there really any excuse that that package, as you talk about, does not exist? Because I would think there is not.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I mean I have to say I would have thought certainly I am always challenged some of the smaller unitary authorities in the UK that are struggling one would like to think that they would be able to make progress much quicker than some of the larger authorities, the Birminghams, etc, which are hugely complicated. So, yes, where I sit Jersey should be able to put those packages in place but I think they need to recognise that sometimes they will have to look beyond the skills and experiences and knowledge that is available directly on the island because these are sometimes very complicated situations. It is my view.
Deputy G. P. Southern of St. Helier :
Can I come back to the question I try to ask everybody? The magic wand question; I do not think I picked up the answer before. Here you are, Nola, in Jersey two or three years into Pathways, in three years time with the magic wand where do you want to be for your service?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
With States funding. I think there is a need to have similar services to what we are doing now in different areas. I know that for instance, First Tower School are very interested (clarification 02.06.09 in an NSPCC service, we could expand) and other areas like that it could be expanded, but with an integration of other agencies to work properly together.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): Like The Bridge.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Yes, I think we work differently to The Bridge; we are different to The Bridge, we are not The Bridge.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
I mean as a centre; that sort of facility.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Yes, something like that that could be provided elsewhere. I think the NSPCC has got other skills that we could work towards as well. I mean I have got a very small team. If we work in other areas with a bigger team I think that we could do a lot on the preventative end but with other agencies.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
You say do a lot; there is a proven need do you think?
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
There is a need, yes, there is a need, if we can get in early and if we can enhance the parent/child healthy relationship. I think all the agencies seem to be under pressure and whether it is CAMHSs that come to us, health visitors, education come to us, social services that refer to us; there is a need and I just wish that I would like to wave that wand and make it happen. it was mentioned of a review. I went to a meeting held by Tony Le Sueur did public to inviting agencies to talk about the Williamson report, and he publicly said that they were going to have the NSPCC come in and do a review of early years services; he said that, but NSPCC do not know about it, but that is what he publicly said. I know that people from social services as well as other agencies want that from early years. So, I am not going to go over the top with what I want because it is realistic.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
I said at the beginning if there is anything we have missed that you would like to say, well let us know please.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
Just a little bit more facts for you really and that is all so that you are aware of what we do. I mentioned what else we have been involved in particularly over the last year and I have touched upon the supporting the police in their investigations. It would be wrong of me not to tell you a little bit about that. We were approached in November last year to assist in running an independent helpline as part of their investigations. That is what we did. Subsequently we had a member of staff that did some work with the police. We had 283 calls which converted in117 referrals so that is what happened during that period and there has been a lot said about it but that is the fact, and a range of referrals: some explicit allegations of abuse, others where we felt there was a need for individuals to receive some support. Technically that helpline still exists but it has been very limited the number of calls that we have had to it recently. Childline and Helpline; at those we receive calls on an ongoing basis from adults reporting abuse and the Helpline is available; it is a 24-hour helpline. What happens to those calls? Those calls will be passed back to the States. Childline; so we get calls from children on the island as well. The numbers will be in the low hundreds and that has happened year on year. Again a range of calls from children to Childline for advise, support, etc. So, they are just things that we have done. I need to say that I have had a couple of meetings with officers, with Mike Pollard and Mario(?) Lundy(?) and there has been some discussion about whether the NSPCC might be able to assist with children's planning that has not moved on any further, but we have had a couple of meetings about that and that was something that we have already said we would be keen to do if we were asked. I do think that genuinely from what I have experienced and the discussions I have had with your staff and colleagues who work in Jersey there does seem to be a momentum for change. In my view this is a real opportunity but getting it right, as you know, is absolutely key. I think the one thing I would say is that you may have to go down particular directions and sometimes those might not be right. You will not get it right the first time I think is what I would say. I think if you go with that but do something then I think that is welcome and do it for the right reasons. The right reasons for me are children; absolutely it is about children. Final point, if any of you want to come and find out more about what we do at Pathways get in touch with Nola and come and you will meet families, you will see for yourself what goes on and it is one of the few places you can turn up and you will see parents and you will see children. To me that is what it is all about.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman): We may well do that later in the week.
Ms. N. Hopkins (Manager, NSPCC Project Pathways, St. Clement ):
Yes, please come down. The other just to finally say is that we do also get service-user feedback regularly, and professional feedback about our agency and when we complete a piece of work NSPCC provides it but then the professionals are asked to complete the questionnaire and some of them go into quite depth and so do service users. That actually gets sent back , but there, again, people can be open and honest and they are actually quite surprised that they are asked for their opinion, but the other agencies do and it keeps us on track.
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I do not want to go overboard, again, because it gets probably too much detail and complex for you. We use measurement tools; so we use research measurement tools with cases in essence so that we can actually measure and monitor progress. Where things are not working we do not do them. So I suppose we have introduced a level of sophistication that is about effectiveness and we have had to because certainly the agenda in the UK and I think the charitable sector has been someway behind has been about what you have heard best value. So the whole idea of being accountable for how you spend your money has really increased in the last four or five years and that is the case in the charitable sector and we have bought into that quite significantly. User feedback is absolutely key.
Deputy R. G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour :
Just on that measurement issue and then I will shut up, one of the big issues is you are dealing sometimes, as you mentioned, with chaotic situations and families or individuals, but you could also argue that a lot of the things you do, they may not have an immediate impact but they could well have an impact down the line. So you cannot just discount things I would have thought that do not appear to be working in the short term but they might well have an impact, so how do you that account of that?
Mr. P. Liver (Director, NSPCC UK):
I mean one cannot just approach this from an industrial model in that we are not producing nuts and bolts and understand that, but equally we cannot just have a model that says in good fair model, so it is in good fair we are doing it so we will assume it will make that is not good enough as well. Where you can measure things measure them and there are ways of measuring progress with families and whether that is about self-esteem, whether it is low (inaudible), high (inaudible) in families, there are now research measurements tools that will allow you to bring some level of sophistication to know that what you are spending your money in is making a difference, but equally this is in many of the more complicated, very complicated, families then, yes, of course one needs to accept that it is longer term, it is over many years. It is not short term. It is generous although again I am sure you know on Jersey there will be families that become known, as it were, but the whole idea I guess is the idea of breaking that cycle. Sorry, a bit complicated. So, I think yes is the answer. Sometimes you have to go with something but equally do not use that as an excuse not to introduce a level of sophistication which says actually we will try and build in some measurement to know that where you are putting your money is making a difference. Again, that is available but, again, it is a knowledge base and one needs to understand it really.
Senator A. Breckon (Chairman):
Thank very much for your time and come in and sharing that with us anyway. Thanks very much. There might be issues, Nola, but I will try and pop later in the week. Okay, thanks very much indeed.