This content has been automatically generated from the original PDF and some formatting may have been lost. Let us know if you find any major problems.
Text in this format is not official and should not be relied upon to extract citations or propose amendments. Please see the PDF for the official version of the document.
STATES OF JERSEY
Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel Succession Planning within the States of Jersey Police Sub-Panel
FRIDAY, 15th OCTOBER 2010
Panel:
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier (Chairman)
Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier (Vice-Chairman) Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour
Witness:
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police
Also Present:
Ms. S. Power (Scrutiny Officer)
[12:15]
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour (Chairman):
I would like to open this formal session of the Education and Home Affairs Panel and I would like to welcome members of the public, even if they do not maybe feel it but we do welcome them, and I will introduce ourselves. Roy Le Hérissier, Chairman, St. Saviour .
Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour : Deputy Jeremy Maçon of St. Saviour .
Deputy T.M. Pitman of St. Helier :
Deputy Trevor Pitman, St. Helier No. 1, Vice Chairman.
Ms. S. Power (Scrutiny Officer):
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. So, thank you very much for coming, Mr. Taylor . I should add that we have received your papers, and thank you very much for producing that; it has given us some food for thought, and hopefully a lot of the points you mention about how succession planning is handled in the police it will come out in the evidence.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Yes, indeed.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: So, we can look at it there.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to come in and speak with you today.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Well, I hope you feel like that at the end as well.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Oh, well, we will see. If I can help I will.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay, no, thank you very much. So, in a way your paper addresses this issue but it will be very useful to get it in summary form from you; what are the succession planning policies in place in the States of Jersey Police at the moment?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Frankly, there are not any.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
David Warcup, and myself latterly - I have been here temporarily - but we inherited a position where for a number of years, probably 6 or 7 years, there had not been any significant development arrangements put in place, particularly for managerial leadership executive skills, talent management issues, that sort of thing, for quite a while. So, there was a big gap to fill. There has clearly been a number of development provisions made for technical or professional policing skills and those are delivered both here in Jersey in collaboration with other forces from Guernsey as well and the U.K.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
I am very sorry, if I can just jump in. Just for the transcribers, I am just conscious that you did not give your name and title.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
My deep apologies.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
My name is Barry Taylor . I am the Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police for the States of Jersey. So, there are some arrangements to be put in place over the years for professional training, but in trying to fill this gap over the last 12 or 15 months or so we have tried to rectify that by putting in place a number of measures to make sure we do provide adequate skills and development opportunities for all of our staff, whether that be police or civil servants as well. It is very much a team approach. I suppose the fundamental starting point to a degree has to be at the recruitment stage, and we have put in place new recruitment processes, and the standards we are using to identify and select people to become young officers are based upon the Skills for Justice Integrated Competency Framework competencies. There are a range of skills and skill sets that are obtained for various positions, or a range of skills that are required to fulfil particular functions in an organisation. It already exists here in Jersey and other bodies have used that for some time. The States of Jersey Police have perhaps been a little late in coming to that. It has been embedded ... I do not want to keep referring to the U.K. but it has been embedded in police in the U.K. for probably nearly a decade now, I would think. In fact the Skills for Justice Integrated Competency Framework is being upgraded this year and it will have a new set of skill sets by December of this year, and we are working to that. Effectively, what we are trying to do is apply common standards, consistent standards that are internationally and nationally recognised, because policing is now a national and international event. We need to work with other jurisdictions and we need to have that consistency of knowledge and of skills to make the world go around and to make the business easier. We also put in place a number of arrangements over the last 12 months or so where we were putting some officers through some additional professional training skills now to help fill the gap while we get our act in order really. We have drawn upon the skills of the National Policing Improvement Agency to provide critical incident training for middle and senior managers. We use a number of forces in the U.K. for technical and professional skills, particularly in relation to firearms incidents for gold and silver command training. We brought in support from Greater Manchester Police to help us with our custody management and how to deal with the proper management and welfare of individuals who come into our custody. Community and geographic policing is obviously very key to the Island and we have a very good reputation for community policing here, and long may that last. We live in a very safe environment, but that does not just happen, it is quite an art in itself, and so there are particular skills that we have been developing with our staff in that regard. Then there are technical issues in relation to dealing with dangerous and violent offenders, domestic violence type issues, child abuse matters, and we have had a lot of support nationally around that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Can I interrupt you? You have mentioned the skill set. One of the issues that we have discussed with other witnesses of course, which has been very graphically illustrated by your own service in recent months, is closeness to politics. How do you handle that in terms of training? I mean, you have experienced it because you are new obviously. You must have experienced this. How is this handled with officers?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It is different here but it is not a criticism, it is an observation. I think it is different because the way in which government is structured here in Jersey, there is no police authority, or Oversight Committee. We do tend, at chief officer level, to work directly to the ministry, the Home Affairs Department, and the Minister and the Assistant Minister and that relationship works well. It is a professional relationship but I think the provision of some sort of oversight board, whether it be a committee or authority or whatever, whether it be for policing or other enforcement activities, would help, and I think it would help Ministers as well. It provides a bit of a buffer between the day-to-day operational issues that are ongoing and the political and strategic issues that are important. Clearly Ministers and politicians need to set the strategy, the vision, of what they want to achieve for Jersey and what they want policing to look like in Jersey, and then it is incumbent upon the Chief Officer to deliver that, and accountability for doing so needs to be ... obviously it is public accountability and political accountability, but that can be achieved through some form of Oversight Committee. That is the gap, I think here. As I say, it is not a criticism, it is a gap, but we just have to learn to work in a different way. I think in the U.K. Chief Officers are perhaps a little bit more distant from politicians than here, but what is important is having and developing an understanding clearly of government of the roles and responsibilities of other departments, and developing strong partnership relationships both with politicians and with professional bodies as well as our partner agencies. That, I think, in an Island environment is absolutely essential, more so perhaps than a larger country.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. The questions do overlap quite a lot.
Can I just come in on that? It is just that I am one of those politicians who is on that working group at the moment looking at that independent authority you are talking about. Do you think without that there is the potential for an over-cosy relationship or too much pressure being put from a Minister downwards? Because you talked about the buffer and that is probably the best way to describe it, is it not? It is a safeguard.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It is a safeguard on both sides. I suppose it does depend on professional relationships to an extent. Again, we all have to be professional and understand where the demarcation lines are in certain things, and I think that is just something you have to do and build up, and it is all about building trust and confidence. We need to have the ability to speak openly with our Ministers and Assistant Ministers and the Oversight Committee, if there were one, about particular issues and it is a collective. We all have a joint responsibility to make the Island a safe place and a better place to live in, so that is important. I just think that from my own experience in having worked with a number of police authorities it eases pressures on politicians to an extent. Politicians can rise above the day-to-day operational issues. They may have an interest, and I am sure they do, but often do not need to get involved in those day-to- day issues. Really they need to be involved in setting the direction where we want to go and the policies that should be applied to provide a safe community.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Yes, responding to Deputy Le Hérissier's question, you made it quite clear that in other areas apart from Jersey there is more distance, and surely that must be a good thing.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Sometimes. It works both ways. To be honest, I think it is advantageous to have a police authority where you have the distance and there is probably greater clarity of purpose, and perhaps it is a matter of presentation for perhaps a member of the public looking in. They can see there is perhaps some distance between the political and the operational, and that demarcation perhaps can be important in that regard.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Deputy Le Hérissier knows better than me, but I think the Independent Police Authority is something that has been coming for the last 20 years. I mean, it is a failing on Jersey's part, would you say? We should have done it.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It is a policy decision. I think it is probably a missed opportunity, but again you have to do what is right for Jersey. Not all models are always transferable. Sometimes they need to be tailored to suit local need. What has obtained up until now is tried and tested, although I do understand there was a police committee at some point a few years ago. I cannot really comment upon that, how effective it was, I do not know, to be honest, but there are benefits to having, I think, some sort of Oversight Committee who can perhaps more directly hold chief officers to account for the delivery of the service they are charged with delivering on behalf of politicians in government.
The key is surely in the word "independent." That is the key surely.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I think operational independence certainly. I mean, that is a feature that has existed for decades in policing. There is lots and lots of case law over that. Clearly Chief Officers do have a responsibility to work with politicians and work with the community, but in the delivery of some policing services, just because of the nature of policing, and within the law there does need to be operational independence of decision-making about the delivery of some of those services, and the Chief Officers are held accountable for that but they should have that operational independence to do so.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If I can just jump in to drill down again on Deputy Le Hérissier's original question which was, because of the closeness between political and the police, or any form of succession planning, what training or provisions made within the recruitment process to help the police force deal with that closeness?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Probably none on the recruitment side because the officers coming out at junior level would rarely, I suggest, actually engage with politicians on an official basis, on a one- to-one basis. As you get more senior in the organisation then clearly that becomes an important feature to work with politicians and policymakers and policy-setters
because obviously we have a role to help influence policy as well as be party to debate around the development of policy and strategy for the Island, but ultimately that is a political decision and politics and policing should be separate really. Policing should not become politicised. I think if we go down that path then it could be a slippery slope. But to answer your point there, at the outset I think that is not covered at all. As you move through into more senior ranks it is experiential learning, I suppose, being exposed to working with people, and indeed you can do academic learning as well and training from courses, and that sort of thing, but largely it is experiential and to gain that experience, gain that knowledge.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Can I just ask, do you think policing has become politicised in Jersey? Some would say it has and some would say that it is just holding to account.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
No, I do not think so. I think at times it is quite close. No, I do not think so. I think the operational dependence has remained when it has needed to remain. Policing is always going to attract interest; it is just one of those types of functions that does. It is always in the public eye. It cannot always do right, cannot always do wrong necessarily, but you have to live with that, and because of the powers the police officers have where they can exert or coerce people to do certain things within the framework of the law, clearly they need to be held accountable for that, quite
properly. There is no difficulty to that at all but it is clear that you have to be careful not to overstep the mark, I think.
Deputy T.M. Pitman: Criticism is half the ... ?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. I have further questions on succession planning, but in the light of your original comments they do not seem to make terrible sense any more. It is about historical experience, and one comment I have picked up informally from some of your staff is that, of course, any time an outsider is brought in, for the most valid of reasons, I should add, it blocks local promotion. It is not those blocks; it is that sometimes the contracts go on and on. There is an assertion that the person will only be there for 5 years, they will sort things out, they will shake up the organisation and they will put plans in place for their successor. Then, of course, something goes wrong; they stay there longer, or the plans, as you have just indicated, are not put in place. Let us say you have been given the task, things have been clear, the police authority maybe have said: "We are really going to take this seriously." What kind of system would you like to see in place if that was the case?
[12:30]
I think we do have to take it seriously. Jersey has to take it seriously. Certainly David and I take it very seriously and so do our staff. We need, as a matter of urgency ... and of course some of these things do take time anyway. There is a window of opportunity here of probably 3 and a half, 4, 5 years, where we have already started to put measures in place and to identify people or we can develop cohorts of skills. This is quite a complex thing though. Policing is not about necessarily walking around and standing on street corners. It is quite a complex business. It is quite technical at times, and you cannot parachute people in all the time or move people about readily to undertake some of the functions because it takes years of knowledge and experience, and many of the skills that are required have to be accredited through proper training. Indeed, accreditation is now required certainly by lawyers and the courts. You know, if you are giving evidence often they will ask what your qualifications are to deal with this sort of issue, and that is a good thing. It has professionalised the whole process quite considerably, but it takes time. We have put measures in place to begin to build on the skills. Now, clearly what we need to do is develop not just the professional skills, which I think we are developing pretty well. There is this fundamental gap in developing managerial, leadership, executive skills, effectively how to run an organisation. You can get the professional skills in terms of dealing with the policing side of the (inaudible) but we need to know how to set budgets, how to operate budgets, how to run organisations. Change management is a very, very key skill and everything that is going on at the moment through C.S.R. (Comprehensive Spending Review), although changes are constant, one might argue, that is a very key component for any senior manager executive, is how you manage change and deal with that. So those are the things we need to do. I think you are
absolutely right. We have got some very good people here in Jersey. I think that, to an extent, they have been cheated. They have not had the opportunity to be developed or to come through and be given the proper training and development opportunities to aspire to particular positions and things. I think there should be a general principle of equal opportunity that should be entirely possible for any local person here to aspire to a particular job at any level if they so wish. That is what we have got to get to. We can draw upon training models, training processes that are in place now that are utilised in the U.K. (United Kingdom). I emphasise the U.K. here because there are things we can and need to do locally because of legal differences. The law is slightly different, but as an island community of a relatively small force, we also have national and international responsibilities, as well as local responsibilities, and we need to get those skills through academic studies or experience or whatever. There are courses we can draw upon in the U.K. through the National Policing Improvement Agency, or through the police staff college, where these command skills, managerial and executive skills can be provided, but we need to get people in at the junior and middle management level to build up this portfolio of skills over time. I was saying we had a window of opportunity now of about 4 or 5 years. They are starting that. There are other schemes. There is the High Potential Development Scheme where we can identify ... it is talent management really, talent spotting, identifying people with potential, with the skills ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We have no one on that at the moment?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Hopefully we will have somebody on it by the end of this year. We have had one applicant this year who is a very, very good candidate. Only last week we had people across here from the scheme and they have interviewed another 4 or 5 individuals. They have also expressed an interest at sergeant level and hopefully they will apply next year (because it happens once a year) to go on the scheme, but nevertheless we can put them on the development programme and hopefully we can get these people through and start to develop their career now from this junior level all the way through to the top.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. I wonder if Deputy Pitman wishes to intervene.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Yes, I just had a point from Deputy Le Hérissier's question. You said a few moments ago there had been nothing really in place for the last few years. Is that a fault that some people in the force are just in a comfort zone, they do not want to move up, or is it a fault of the police chief at the time that he has not developed enough or is it the fault of the Minister for Home Affairs or the Minister before or one of the committees before that that they have not done enough? Have things been left to stagnate? Where does the blame lie, or is it a mixture of all 3?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It is probably a bit of a mixture really. I do not think it is any particular individual's or body's fault. It is just a thing that has occurred over time. It is a great shame when we have got a gap of 7 years, 7 years where hardly anything has happened.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
Why would that not be picked up?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It should have been picked up. It should have been picked up, but it has been now, and things are moving on, we are accelerating away, but we were playing catch-up. We cannot necessarily compress 7 years into 3 years but we could probably do it into 4 or 5, but we need to, through having a proper H.R. (Human Resources) strategy and drawing upon the models that do exist and the courses we can provide, we can help people to develop themselves as well. Individuals have a responsibility to develop themselves, but equally the organisation has a responsibility to help them develop. In a marketplace such as police in Europe, you cannot get some of those skills elsewhere. The organisation has to develop people to do that.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
But you have got the very complement and waiting of people qualified at sergeant level and then, after that, it seems there is quite a gap. That is why I have got a comfort zone of people in there. It is not like being shot in Northside or being in inner London, is it? Is it a danger that it is too comfortable?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Probably so. I think probably being an island does not always help as well, to some extent. I mean, it is expensive to send people away for training. Our budget at the moment, it is just over £300,000 but we spend a third of that on travel to get people to
where they need to be trained, on occasions, which is an awful lot of money. We are looking at different ways of delivering training so we can bring people here to train people here. There is nothing to stop us and we are hoping to be developing people's skills with other professional bodies here in Jersey, whether it be in the public or the private sector as well, specifically at senior level, you know, attachments and secondments to develop these skills and whatever, but the reason we do tend to draw upon the U.K. for training because, as an island community, if things go wrong - and in fact they rarely do in terms of having to draw in mutual aid - there is a limit to the amount of service we can provide over time, the continuity of service, because we simply do not have the numbers available to us, and it takes time to get people here from the U.K. or from Guernsey. We are developing collaborative opportunities much more closely than ever now with Guernsey, so that would be our first port of call. We are looking at training opportunities with Guernsey, so we have this interoperability skills-based consistency of application and it takes about 4 hours to get to here from Guernsey to do things we need to do, probably 12 from the U.K., but we need to have this consistency-in-approach policy, training, the way we deliver things, and that is why we do tend to draw upon the national standards that have been applied effectively to U.K. policing, and that goes elsewhere.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. In a way, we are going with the flow, but I will ask Deputy Maçon.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Yes. Fast-tracking is an issue and again I think you have touched on about the problems of being 7 or 5 years and what impact that would have. If you could just comment on that please.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Certainly. I think the H.P.D.S. (High Potential Development Scheme) course, people have to apply for that. We can encourage them to do it but we cannot compel people to apply for that. There is no compellability around this, but if people are in key positions, management positions, they hold a particular post, then we can quite legitimately require them to develop their professional skills. That would include leadership management at executive skills level, but when we get into looking at the top post perhaps, I think the model that is required, certainly in the U.K. and certainly for the chief officer post here, is attendance at the Strategic Command Course. That is the qualification that is required now at the entry level, if you like, to get people with that qualification and skill set behind them to attain those key posts. We cannot compel people to attend that course. It has to be done on a voluntary basis. We can encourage them to do so and one would hope that through proper mentoring and coaching and development opportunities here in Jersey and beyond - we can do secondments, whatever - as I mentioned a little earlier, we would encourage people quite strongly and urge them to apply for those courses. It is open to independent forces, non home office Forces and international bodies as well. There is no reason whatsoever that people from Jersey could not apply and would be successful in completing that course. It is a matter of policy at the moment. It is not our decision. I think it is the policy of the States of Jersey that there is an expectation that chief officers at the moment should have qualified through the Strategic Command Course.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Do you agree with that policy?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I do. I do, particularly for the chief officer and probably the deputy for the time being. It is being moved through now and beginning to develop people. I think there is an opportunity for people from within to do that and I think it is a very good course. It is more than a course. It is a lifelong achievement really to bring together a range of executive skills, not only in policing but all sorts of areas as well and I think it is a key qualification that is desirable. Looking at the ratio of chief officers to police officers in the U.K., at 1 to 750, something like that, but here it is 1 to 235, 236. So there is a greater opportunity for people here; if they are keen and eager to develop themselves, as well as the organisation helping them getting there, then they could quite readily aspire and be successful at the Strategic Command Course, and then be in a position to take up a post here at chief officer level.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
If I may pose a question about one of the quirks of Jersey, which is obviously the Honorary Police system. Now there is a perception that the way in which the top police officer views the Honorary Police system does affect the way in which the police force runs on the Island. So my question is are there any training structures, anything given towards someone in those posts to help relate to things like the Honorary Police system and structure?
Just outside or coming in? No, not until you get here, frankly. Developing within the States of Jersey Police, again that is about partnership building, trust and confidence building, and I think we do have good relationships with the Honorary Police. It comes from a very historic background. The States of Jersey Police is very new by comparison and there is clearly a role for the Honorary Police to operate here in Jersey. That is the way things are. There are many, many good things about the Honorary Police, particularly in relation to the way in which the Parish Hall system works. They have restorative justice-type processes; all very encouraging. Lots and lots of U.K. forces would like to have an opportunity to do work like that. Sometimes the difficulties with working alongside the Honorary Police, it is perhaps our expectations are perhaps sometimes too high because they are not always exposed to the level of training that our officers are, and we have to think carefully when we work with them and plan collectively to deal with particular events, or whatever, that we can draw upon their knowledge and skills and their expertise and use that to best effect. Where perhaps a different type of skill set is required, they work alongside somebody from the States of Jersey Police who may have that skill set. So we can use a transference of skills through shadowing.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.
Deputy T.M. Pitman:
It is a completely different question, and I suppose it is difficult, but I think you could answer it. We have just seen a situation where the former Chief of Police was
suspended clearly without enough evidence at the time to warrant that suspension. Has that had a negative impact within the police, do you think, and would that put off local applicants who think: "God, I am not going to go for this. I just do not want to put myself in that situation"? Do you think that is fair? Has it affected morale?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I do not think it has been negative. It has certainly had a significant effect on the force. I mean, what the force have been through over the last 2, 2 and a half years has been very difficult. It has been a very difficult time for Jersey, never mind the force, and for particular individuals who may have been involved in that. I think the force has coped with it well.
[12:45]
The focus on the Chief and on another individual particularly has been in relation to one very significant event, but putting that to one side, if I may, the force operated and delivered and performed very well during that very difficult time. Clearly it has an impact on the force. Of course it does. To have their leader, their chief suspended, that does have a significant impact and it is a difficult time for all to manage, but I think we have come through that now. It has been a difficult process. Whatever the rights and wrongs are, the decision has been made and the decision has been taken. We are where we are. I think it is important now for the force to get a period of stability. Effectively, we are in a position now where we can move ahead. There is a process taking place at the moment to appoint a new chief officer to come in, and I think it is an ideal opportunity for that person now to, if you like, draw a line in the
sand and really take the force forward, but I do not mean in terms of building trust and confidence, providing a first-class service to the citizens of Jersey but also getting all these organisational issues right where we can develop and train our staff to take on the management and the leadership of the force for the future, and we have got to get that right. That might take a decade. I would hope it would take somewhat less than that, but I think for the measures we are putting in place, we can compress it from that length of time, but it is not going to happen next year. It is going to take a little while.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Talking of skill sets, the parts of the Wiltshire Report that we read, and, as you know, it has been hard to read at all, but the parts that we have read, there were comments that we were lacking certain skill sets or certain individuals were. Now, presumably you have analysed that and do you think it is simply because this was so atypical they had to come from outside these sets, or we really need to re-evaluate how the force is working, that there were certain things where we were left looking a bit exposed, shall we say?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
There were some gaps, but equally there are trained people here. There were trained people here who could have taken up that inquiry. It did not have to be a particular individual. There were trained people who could have done that, but that was not the case. There were some gaps elsewhere because, as I said, there was this black hole, as it were, of non-development for a period of time where people had not developed or had not had the opportunity to develop the accreditation necessary to host particular functions, but during the course of that investigation, a lot of local people were used and it was an ideal opportunity for them to shadow people who did have the necessary skills and they have now gone on from that and they have now applied those skills themselves because we have put them through crime investigation training to the appropriate level. They are becoming accredited investigators. They are becoming accredited interviewers, for a range of different things. We have got a lot of skill sets now in relation to dealing with child abuse and criminality in general terms. A lot of good has come out of it, in a perverse sort of way, and that has been a good stepping stone for us to move forward. There is still more to do but we have now got a good collection of people who are ready to do this. I think the key difficulty with something of that magnitude - and it is quite a rare event to have something of that magnitude - is really, here in Jersey, I suppose, exposure to incidents such as that on a fairly frequent basis. Thankfully we live in a very safe environment where we do not want nasty things to happen, but there is a downside to that from developing appropriate policing skills. Sometimes you have to be exposed to the nasty and horrible, but we can still do that; we can send people away to help them as part of their developmental programme who are now going through this process, they can go to a city or whatever in the U.K. for 3 months, whatever it might be, to gain those skills, to work alongside and bring it back and pass it on. This is not insuperable. It is quite simple really. It is just the dedication and having the plan and time to do it and an understanding that it will take a bit of time, but we can develop people. There are some really good people here but they have missed out on an opportunity through the force not helping them develop. We can play catch-up. We can. I am quite convinced by that, but it is going to take a while.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
One question. Anecdotally, at the moment, from various people, from what I have heard, there is a very divided police force, it being divided between one person that is now there and one that has left, being both the Power/Warcup divide, as has been put to me. What is in place when someone is brought in who will obviously have to oversee the police force as a whole? What is there in place to be able to unite perhaps that divide, if indeed it exists?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I am not aware of a divide. Do you expect me to say that? I am really not aware of that divide. It is really down to the leadership skills of that individual coming in and listening, working alongside, shaping the senior management team and developing a co-ordinated, structured approach to developing the policing service. It is a team approach but you need a leader to do it and it is largely down to the charismatic capabilities, I suppose attributes of the leader, transformational leadership skills, all that sort of thing, to make things happen. It is about, as I say, building relationships and trust. That takes time. You cannot get it out of a textbook necessarily and you cannot learn it on a course. It is about working with people, understanding what makes people tick. We need to translate, as I said, strategic direction from the Government into reality and I suppose the opportunity for the Chief Officer, the leader, is to develop a delivery style around that. In doing so, you would want to engage your whole team, the whole force, but also particularly your senior managers to make that happen. That is just about personal style, I think.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
Then, going on from that back-to-succession planning - I apologise if you have already touched on this - how do you develop leadership skills within the police force?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
You can do that again through academic study. All sorts of things are there, but again it is largely due to experience and learning, being exposed to different situations, difficult situations, and putting things into practice, maybe with the support of somebody or sometimes very much on your own, but we have to start it. You cannot just start 20 years down the line. Everybody is a leader at some time of the day in whatever position they hold in the organisation. They all have authority to deal with particular issues, and particularly in policing where the officers have discretion to operate within the law. You know, it is one of those things. They are leaders in their own right, so we need to capture, nurture, harness and develop those leadership attributes all the way through a person's career, almost from the point of their probation where they come in as recruits. There is education and input around developing those leadership qualities and that should develop all the way through. What we have here is a gap where things have just been allowed to stagnate for a little while, but we can get back on track with it.
Deputy J.M. Maçon:
You have identified this gap, and I know you have mentioned the assistance that we have put in place to address those gaps that have managed to form. Could you just take us through what processes and things will be put in place in order to be able to develop these skills?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
We have just gone through a process now of a promotion board. We have just gone through some sergeants' selection boards. Next week we are looking at inspectors' vacancies. Unfortunately we have got more actors than equity at the moment.' Because of the uncertainty of when we get a new chief, everyone is in acting capacity. Once the new chief is in place, we can then work backwards, if you like, and make sure we get people substantively promoted into the key positions of the organisation and get some stability. Through the leadership and managerial training courses that we can put in ... and there have been some local ones we use. There is the Modern Managers Programme, I think, and the Senior Management Programme, which is about executive skills, non-policing issues. We do have people going through that, but we need to enhance that so we are going to mesh that with the professional skills, and that means that we need to put in place developmental programmes, personal delivery programmes for individuals to go away and get experience elsewhere, go and get qualified to do certain things so we can have a personal development plan for individuals. You cannot really develop a succession plan around an individual. It has to be built around cohorts. So you can develop a pool of people round a particular specialism or a particular level, grade or whatever, and so you then create a pool from which you can draw upon to maybe enhance to the next level, or whatever. So it is about going back to where we started perhaps with the skills. The integrated competency framework is exactly that. It is integrated. So that all levels from a recruit to the top post, these competencies intermesh all the way through and you can use them through the personal development framework. It is not only about the individual but it also drives the organisation's performance as well. It all links together, so it is interconnected and you have clarity of purpose and a clear plan to do this and understanding where we need to go. We have just embarked on a training needs analysis where we identify now what skills we already have. We think we know what all the professional skills are we need to continue to develop. We certainly know what we need to do from a managerial and a leadership point of view, but through the training needs analysis, we can then develop our training plan for next year and beyond so we can identify the people who are in a particular post now, where they might go in the future, and have this programme of activities, of experiential learning, operation delivery and academic learning to take them to the right level, all the way through the organisation.
Deputy J.M. Maçon: Thank you.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes, thank you. One of the issues that was addressed by the defence committee paper written by the then chief, of course in 2002, was appointing a local person as chief officer, and there was a view at the time that the conditions were so severe that essentially there would never be another local person appointed, although it happened; there was one appointed quite soon after who had not attended, I do not think, the strategic management course.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: I do not know, to be honest.
So we have that paper, and yours obviously puts a much more optimistic view of things that there can indeed be local people and so forth, but the argument has also been put to us that the job of police chief as such, with all the personal issues, with all the need for objectivity, that it is best that there not be a local person. What is your view on that?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I do not entirely agree with that. Certainly they would have to be qualified, and that is why I think the qualifications of the Strategic Command Course is so important, because it is not just about policing. It is not just about localism. Localism is very, very important in policing. I am not trying to play that down at all, but this a very important community in the world, in the world community, and there are national/international dimensions on a daily basis that need to be properly addressed, and we need to have more experience in dealing with those things. That is not to take anything away from people here. As I said, we have lots and lots of good people here and they can be properly developed, and so I think the senior chief and deputy police officers can come from Jersey. No doubt about that at all, but they must be properly qualified. We need to encourage and develop people now to undertake that Strategic Command Course, get that qualification and then enter the competition to ...
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
I take your point. One of the issues - I think it was addressed again in the 2002 report - was a need for not only that course but a substantial chunk of experience in the U.K.,
possibly at a time, of course, when you had heavy family responsibilities and you might not have wished to leave the Island. How are you going to get around that?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Yes, I thought it was alluded to in the Clothier report as well. I think Clothier suggested a 5-year period.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Five years, yes.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I think somewhat less than that, probably 3 years. That is something you have to be aware of all the time. My career has been all over the world doing different things, and it is something that you either want to do or you do not, so it is about personal development style perhaps as well as making sure you develop yourself. It is down to personal choice, at the end of the day. As I say, we cannot compel people to go for these senior appointments or go for training. I hope we can nurture them to do so. But I think over a period of time if we can get a proper developmental plan in place, during the course of an individual's career, particularly as they are getting nearer the top, as it were, we can, as part of their annual development programme, their day-to- day activities, we can put them into different bodies. Whether it be public or commercial bodies here, a U.K. police force or somebody else where they can get this experiential learning from dealing with different situations, whether it be crime, homicide, public order, fraud, community police, planning, all sorts of different things.
[13:00]
I think that is entirely possible. I think it is an important component, not just the qualification from the course. It is important to go and get that experience. But to do that for a 5-year block, I do not think that is necessary. I do not think it is even necessary for a 3-year block. I think if you can demonstrate over the course of your career that you have had exposure to this type of learning and give evidence, then I think that is entirely acceptable.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Building on the question that Deputy Maçon asked about fast tracking, and we heard from another witness earlier this morning, of course, in big organisations you can have pools of people, so it is not invidious. If you are not chosen you can reconcile yourself to that situation and move to another part of the system, perhaps, a more specialist role. But in the Jersey Police Service, of course, it would be very obvious that you have been chosen for fast development and then, as you near the top, you have become unctuous, so to speak. How do you deal with that in a small organisation?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I suppose the opportunities can be more limited in a smaller organisation, but equally if people are seen to jump through hoops quick enough, yes it can cause a degree of disruption maybe, an unease among people. But they have to understand that opportunities are open to anyone to apply for. They can develop themselves. Not everybody would want to. Not everybody wants to seek promotion. We want really good quality officers to stay at constable level for their entire service and still do. They are brilliant. Thankfully they do want to do that. Equally it is not a race to get to the top or to find their own niche, necessarily. But I think where we can bring people on, where they have the requisite skills and the potential and the wherewithal to do these things and want to aspire to positions then they should be helped to do so. They need to develop themselves but for the benefit of the organisation. The organisation is quite selfish really. Yes, we want to help people. We want to make sure the organisation is meeting its needs so we can deliver a good quality service to the public. That is the focus at the end of the day, the quality of service out there to the public. But we need to make sure we bring people along to do that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
We have also had it argued to us and, of course, this is the eternal issue in any organisation and it is probably more intense in a small and certainly in an Island that has gone through a kind of trauma, you will end often with people who are safe, because they are fearful of the repercussions. They have seen the politics of what has happened around the Haut de la Garenne affair, from all points of view. They have seen these politics. You will end up essentially with safe people. The people you may want or you certainly want in the mix, the more innovative people, the people who will put their head on the block, they are going to say: "No way. I am just not going to expose myself to that kind of pressure. I will self-censure myself as I move up the organisation." You lose a lot of talent.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Yes, we do.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: You would accept that?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Yes. I can fully understand that. It is down to personal choice. Equally as a senior manager in an organisation we need to encourage people to do these things and we have to succession plan to make this sort of thing happen. Sadly, periodically it is necessary to bring in people from outside. I am not a (j) cat. I am here as a contractor, even temporarily. But we do occasionally have to bring in people on (j) cat licences for particular skills that are not available at that particular time or cannot be found in Jersey. I think that is decreasing now, because we are bringing people through and developing our own expertise. There will always be a few specialist niche areas. Probably on the non-police side more so than the police side, perhaps, where we do need to bring people in, perhaps for a short period of time, 6 months, 12 months, whatever, to fill a gap, do that work and hopefully transfer skills and maybe encourage people, because they want to do things themselves, and then move on again. I think that is inevitable to a degree. You will find even in the biggest forces in the U.K. it is a marketplace now and people are poaching skills, poaching staff all the time. Because not every organisation has all the skills they need all the time and they have to buy people in. You either get people on secondment attachments or you encourage them to come and join your organisation. That is just the way of the world, I am afraid.
I am glad you mentioned that, because I have anecdotally, to use Deputy Maçon's phrase, been told ... and sadly it has been a feature of this Scrutiny that, obviously we knew it was going to get evidence from the rank and file, so to speak, because of the way we are structured and we were not able to change that, as you know, but it has been put to me and you have mentioned it that there were people with skills who could have played a much more prominent role in Haut de la Garenne. How are we going to ensure in future that these people are not ignored? What kind of protection is there for them almost, so that they feel they can go forward to their senior officer and say: "I have got this skill or I could develop this further if only you allowed me to move into this incident or investigation." How can we deal with that in a small place?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
I think it is just incumbent upon the policy. We have the order set as a States policy, whether we would endeavour to encourage and endeavour to develop our own people within Jersey to take ... it has to be an equal opportunity for all. So, we cannot ... ? be careful how you word this, but I think that should be encouraged from the highest level. We want to achieve that. But recognising perhaps sometimes when we cannot do that then if there is a need to be filled it has to be filled. Again, I think it is down to good management. It is down to good leadership. It is having in place proper processes and procedures, where we would hope people would take up the opportunity themselves, but also the organisation encouraging them and giving them the time to develop themselves to take on these key posts. There is an opportunity here in Jersey, again it is the Island issue here really, because we are only a small number, there are only 230 of us. Many of the officers do have to develop more than
one skill. I mean multi-tasking really. Learning their obvious policing skills that you would expect, they sometimes have to develop one or 2 or 3 different specialisms as well. So when things happen - incidents - we have to police events dictated by events really, depending on the type of event or incident that occurs it will require perhaps a different type of skill set. You could possibly not afford to have people who have individual skill sets to that, so we have to multi-task. That works very well. Again, that in itself can be a very great encouragement for people to want to aspire to do different things in the organisation. I think that is very encouraging. There are more opportunities ... perhaps less opportunities for promotion in Jersey, because of the size, but more opportunities to do a variety of different professional roles than may obtain elsewhere.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Good point. On a technical issue, Deputy Pitman raised this, we were rather staggered at the number of sergeants in the organisation. There are 40 sergeants to 175 constables that are currently funded at the moment. That seems to be an incredible ratio in terms of ... it is all wonderful for promotional opportunities, which is what we are talking about. But in terms of the whole world is moving towards flatter organisations. I know your origin essentially ... ultimately is a military kind or organisation. I am not making you a paramilitary ... How is that ratio justified? It is an amazing ratio.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
It is a hierarchical organisation. It is just the way the service is. There are particular functions that are required within law.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Custody sergeants.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Custody particularly is one.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: I thought you might say that.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
There are 10 there straightaway. Then of course you have the 24-hour cover to arrange, people covering the 2 or 3 shifts each day. So the numbers soon add up. I think you will find if you take out those specialisms the actual number is fairly thinly spread. Probably the most important supervisory rank is the sergeant. That is critical to the delivery of services. We have to get that right. That is where really you spawn and nurture people to take on the more senior posts. That is an essential post. I am quite relaxed by those figures. Perhaps it does on paper seem a lot.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
It does look quite surprising. The other question I would ask in terms of the, again, succession planning order promotional ladder. You have talked a lot about the importance of this Strategic Command Course, and we know it was made into an essential requirement in 2002 and it has remained there. Do you think the jump between chief inspector to superintendent then to deputy chief officer, the kind of experience you accumulate as you go through those hoops, so to speak, are they leading to the conclusion you outlined that you are going to get a person incredibly well experienced, bar the need for maybe the odd placement in the U.K., under terrorism issues or whatever issues, that hopefully we will never have, are there gaps in terms of what is called for from those levels, do you think?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
At present or during the structure you mean?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes, in the structure.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
No, we talk about leadership as we know it. When you need to get command skills certainly you need to have an awful lot of experience and knowledge of command by the rank of chief inspector. If you do not acquire it then you will not really get it afterwards. The way in which the police service works here and elsewhere is we have this gold, silver, bronze structure. It is used for emergency planning to deal with major multi-agency events. Gold is the strategic level where they set policy, resources, whatever. Then you have the operation level, which is silver, respectfully. Silver is going to be your Chief Inspector, Superintendent. It is not rank specific. Then bronze is with the tactical delivery, what we are trying to achieve, which is probably at sergeant level. That is where you really get your knowledge and skills developed. You are dealing with a range of different processes as part of that command structure. It is used most weeks ... probably 2 or 3 times a week we use it, so it is not uncommon. There is a real opportunity for people to get experience within that command programme. But if you do not really acquire that experience by the rank of chief inspector then probably you will not aspire to a senior post in a command position.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
It is not demonstrated here, but clearly one of the big issues will be salary differentials. Somebody is going to be the Deputy Chief Officer and say: "There is no way I am going to put up with what Messrs. Warcup and Power have gone through." And: "I am getting paid very nice. Thank you." It is not that different to another chief. Is that the case? Are the differentials quite narrow?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
As they get nearer the top they are narrower. I think under the C.S.R. there has been a lot of focus on terms and conditions across the whole of the States. We want to see the police as part of that. I think that is going to be reviewed in significant detail as part of that Terms and Conditions Review. We await the outcomes of that.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Are you the highest paid police force in Europe? That allegation is often made.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: Yes, I think we probably are.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Yes.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Not at chief officer level. [Laughter] But yes.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
The other issues, which I know, is obviously a major issue in the U.K., and I know there are some quite horrendous figures being spoken of about cuts and 30-year people being invited to retire in vast numbers. What is your view of this controversial issue ... it is a controversial issue both within the force and outside it, of the retirement dates given for constables and then for more senior officers?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police: In Jersey?
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes, in Jersey.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Well, it is 55. It is 50 in the U.K., 49, 50. It is normally after 30 years' service, in the U.K. The earliest you can join is 18 and a half. Most people join when they are older than that. But theoretically you could retire at the age of 49, after 30 years' service. Here it is at the age of 50 or 55. Unless you are a chief officer; you can go to the age of 60. I think the retirement age for officers who are doing day-to-day operation, which can be seen on the ground, that is really a young person's job to some extent. I think to go beyond the age of 55 as an operational police officer on the ground is quite demanding. It is quite demanding physically, the older you get. But at managerial level, no reason why it could not go on further to 60, 65 even. I think the important issue of tenure of post must be important not to have an individual ... hopefully you can do this through proper developmental and performance management issues. But I think for a senior post, particularly a chief officer post, to a lesser extent with superintendents ... particularly with chief officer posts, I think there should be time limited contracts. Typically, a chief officer would be on a 5 to 7-year contract, maximum. It is about the same length for a deputy chief officer as well.
[13:15]
I think that is right, because you need to bring in fresh blood, fresh ideas. There needs to be change at the top, periodically. Not too often. But there does need to be a change. I think to go beyond 7 years is probably too much. I think it is simple good management to move people on after a length of time and bring in new ideas. At that period of a person's career they are getting towards the higher end of the age range anyway. You do get chief officers coming through in their very early 40s, even late 30s now. To be a chief officer from the age of 30 to 55, well, that is probably too much. I think you probably do need to change personalities.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Do you ... then I will pass to my good colleague. He has been very patient. Then we are going to keep quiet. Do you feel, to use that horrible term, civilianisation has been pushed far enough in the force? Some people would argue that constables who may not want to do the physical aspect of the job have a lot of experience to offer in some of these other positions.
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
Indeed I think we do lose skills. I am not opposed to civilianisation at all. What we have tried to do through the C.S.R. is to develop a workforce modernisation programme. I think there is an opportunity to move in that regard. Not every function we perform necessarily requires warrented officer skills. We pay a premium for that. We do not need to be a warrented officer to do certain things. One of the factors we do have to take into account here in Jersey though is flexibility of deployment. Because, as I say, when things get tough we do need support. Then you are reliant upon every individual officer you can get out on the streets to do different things before we have ... we may have a 12-hour wait to get somebody in from elsewhere. We have to take that into account. That is an important factor. I think there is further scope for civilianisation through this workforce modernisation programme which we hope to put in place. I think there are tremendous benefits there. The problem we have at the moment, the blockage seems to be, is that the ... hopefully this will be looked at through the Terms and Conditions Review, is that the grading arrangements that are applied in the States at the moment are largely based on the Hay grading system. I think it has just run away with itself. We were looking to bring in investigative assistants or custody assistants as civilians, in non-police roles. But the way in which the grading comes in ... it is normally at about a grade 9. Well, our cut-off point is probably a grade 8. It is higher than it needs to be. So it does not make it financially viable. If it is going to be a grade 9, we may as well employ a police officer and maintain flexibility to deploy those police officers. I think once the grading mechanism is looked at you can still reward people properly for the work they are going to do or perform, but I think it needs to be a lower grade than it is coming out as at the moment. Until that is addressed as part of the Terms and Conditions Review or as the new Hay grading system is put in place, I do not think that is going to happen.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Okay, thank you. Jeremy?
Deputy J.M. Maçon
I have nothing further. Thank you.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Is there anything you would like further to say? Anything you feel we may have got the wrong end of the stick about or we may not have appreciated that you have been saying?
Acting Deputy Chief Officer of Police:
No, I think it has been a very interesting conversation. Hopefully we have covered the points you were hoping to achieve there. If there are supplementary issues, I am happy to address that for you. But I think the paper speaks for itself.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier: Yes. Again, thank you for that.
You say you were perhaps a bit optimistic. I think it is realistic as well as optimistic. I really think this could happen.
Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:
Okay. Good. I would like to thank you very much and bring this session to an end.
[13:19]