Speed Limits Review - Minister for Transport and Technical Services - Transcript - 8 March 2011

STATES OF JERSEY Environment Scrutiny Panel  Speed Limits Review TUESDAY, 8th MARCH 2011  

Panel:  

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman) Deputy D. Wimberley Deputy S. Power

Senator A. Breckon

Witnesses:

Connétable M. Jackson , Minister for Transport and Technical Services Connétable G. Butcher

Deputy K. Lewis , Assistant Minister for Transport and Technical Services Acting Director of Transport

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services

In Attendance: Scrutiny Officer

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

I give the apologies for a late arrival from Senator Breckon, who is dealing with other issues and will be with us as soon as possible. I will start off with the first question, Minister. The terms of reference of the Working Group simply restates the wording of the original proposition approved by the States. At what point did the Working Group discuss the goals of speed limits policy to inform their review?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, effectively, the whole matter was stimulated, as you are aware, by the proposition of Deputy Gorst of St. Clement s, who asked for my Department to conduct a review into speeds on the Island, clearly stimulated by his concern over speeds in St. Clement s, and the terms of reference were drawn up on that basis. Effectively, I decided to form a Working Group to consider the matter, on the principle that it was a better spread and drew in the experiences of several Connétable s into the matter to give a more Island spread than just focusing on St. Clement s. To that end, I think the results have been satisfactory and a well balanced proposition has been put forward. In terms of the specific terms of reference, we feel that they were shaped to suit the Island. We did not propose a drastic restructure of the whole speeding mechanism of the Island and what we have come forward with is a streamlining of the existing structures, if you like, to suit the changes in the built environment that we are seeing today, which is something that had not been addressed for some years.

Deputy M. Wimberley:

Could I put the question again: at what point did the Working Group discuss the goals of speeding policy?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think that is for you to -- maybe if I can ask Graeme to answer that one in terms of the process of the review, in terms of the exact point of discussion --

I mean, at one of the early meetings we looked at the proposition that had gone through and really it is the first line, i.e., it asked us to review the policy. We discussed it amongst ourselves and decided that we would take the consultation approach, rather than a technical approach, many of us having knowledge of the Island. So we decided to take that view and set up various meetings with various interested parties: honorary police, States police, the public. We did a survey online. We spoke to Planning. We spoke to officers at TTS with various bits of information. The other thing is some Parishes already had the smiley signs and we had a certain amount of data, which I believe you have some of it that we forwarded to you to look at. There is quite a perception on this Island that speeding is a major issue. I think the evidence would point to the fact that it is not as major. A lot of it is about perception. So we did it on a consultation basis, rather than going too technical on it. We tried to take a common sense and pragmatic approach.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think, in practice, Chairman, the terms of reference were, if you want a particular date on it -- they were based on the Gorst proposition of 2nd December 2008, and that is effectively -- they were taken from that.

Deputy M. Wimberley:

I have to say I am still puzzled because, whether you take a consultation approach or a technical approach, you would have thought that you would need to know what you were trying to do. So I am still none the wiser about when the goals of the policy were discussed. I will not suggest things to you. I will just ask again: what is the context?

Well, the goal was to look at the policy. It was not to -- it was not an aim to reduce speed limits, increase speed limits. The recommendations that we made came a lot later. So there was not a specific goal. It was not driven by safety. This review was driven by a proposition that went to the States. We were asked by the States of Jersey to look at the speed limit policy. So it was not the -- the proposition that went through the States, it was not specific to speed; it was not specific to anything other than just to look at the policy.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, if you look at (a) of the Gorst proposition, to establish a reworking group; to review the implementation, operation, suitability of the current speed limits policy, as approved by the previous States in 2005. The underlying aim is to achieve a safe distribution of speed, if you are going to call it that, which reflects the function of the road, the nature of the road, and the impacts on the local community, which may have changed, due to building changes or development throughout the Island; the effect on vulnerable road users, which can be quite profound, if you are next to a hospital or a home or a school. All these things have to be taken into account. There are -- I think we must not think that speed limits are something that should be used to solve isolated hazard problems, which sometimes I think the public do expect us to do, as is probably instanced by various accidents at St. Clement s, and recently at Trinity , and, until these are properly analysed, it is difficult to bring that into focus. But there is a public expectation that, as soon as you have an accident, it is the public's fault -- or my Department's fault -- because we have not done something or other.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

What conclusion did the Working Group reach as to why the review was being

carried out and what its aims should be, Connétable ?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Again, I would say it was to look at the whole policy in terms of area, various speed limits. I mean, the proposition spells out why we were asked to do it. We did not have any preconceived ideas as to how we were going to approach it until our sort of early discussions. It was not pointed at slowing cars down, speeding cars up. It had no specific remit. We basically looked at it on a user/some of us with honorary police backgrounds, and many of us as Constables dealing with the public on matters of concern.

Deputy M. Wimberley:

Can you confirm, then, that the goal of reducing road casualties -- or that reducing road casualties was not a goal?

Connétable G. Butcher:

It was not a specific, defined goal, no. It may well be the effect of some of the recommendations, but it was not a specific, defined goal.

Deputy S. Power:

Would it be fair to say that your review would be to factor in Deputy Gorst 's report proposition, the previous 2005 one, and see if there was need for any change?

Connétable G. Butcher: Yes, I would agree with that.

Deputy S. Power:

As the Minister said, any reference to isolated incidents relating to speed, alcohol, depression, road rage, anger -- any of those things, you cannot really factor in because those are the maverick incidents that no amount of legislation --

Connétable M. Jackson : That is right.  

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

But you would not say that the policy had succeeded if accidents, in spite of what you just said -- if accidents trended downwards, because of the number -- road rage might be considered to be a constant -- you would not consider that a success, and you would not consider it a failure if, after this policy was implemented, if it was, that accidents trended upwards? It would neither be a success nor a failure?  

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, I would tend to think that if the trend went upwards, one would clearly think that it had been a failure. I do not think there is any doubt about that. I take, going back again, and sorry to keep going back to it, but the request of Deputy Gorst to review the implementation and suitability inherently suggests that one would be looking towards accidents and, clearly, as is alluded to further on in the report, the Department is fully aware of historical accidents statistics where we are aware from the police and that has been fed into the review. So I think there has to be a natural assumption that that is a given, if you like.

Deputy S. Power:

As a result of the review you carried out, Constable, is there any one particular factor that left you with a feeling that that was the one thing that perhaps I would like to change? That should be looked at?

Connétable G. Butcher:

If you are asking for my opinion --

Deputy S. Power:

As Chair of the group, yes.

Connétable G. Butcher:

Many of the people that we consulted with and that commented online as well as emails -- it would be reducing the speed in about 175 miles of Parish roads, i.e., roads with no centre white line, because we do have quite a lot of areas where you will slow down to go through a village -- wherever it might be -- you turn off into a tiny country lane that barely two vehicles can pass and you quite happily do 40 miles an hour along there. So we recommended, and we still believe it is the right thing to do, to reduce the speed to 30 miles an hour, and it is going to be predominantly Parish roads, with no central white line.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Can we park that one and come back to that one a little later, if possible. What evidence do you have of a need for change to the existing policy?

Connétable M. Jackson :

This goes back to the proposition once again and it was felt by Deputy Gorst that

there was a need for change. Now, that was driven by his -- in his report, which was attached to his proposition. His feeling was that traffic was going too fast. Now, I do not think there is any doubt in my mind that the traffic speeding policy has not adapted to increased development or a change in development in the Island and that is a fundamental point in my view, and I think the Panel have taken this on board, that that needs to be considered, because there is no point in building housing estates and having traffic going past at 40 miles an hour. We have to adapt and I think this is what our proposals are doing, adapting to the latest needs.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

For the benefit of the record, Senator Breckon has joined the Panel at 9.48, after having attended a previous meeting. Thank you. Right. Any questions out of that one? Right. What work was done to ensure that the Working Group's review was carried out in accordance with best practice?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think what is best practice in conducting a review? I think that the work that was undertaken in terms of consulting with the public had proved that that was an extremely successful method in terms of the amount of feedback we received. The information within the Department was utilised where it was available, and that obviously had input into the report. My feeling, based on that information, was that the terms of the review, if you like, or the Code of Practice, if there was such a thing -- there is not really a Code of Practice, but I think the form under which the review was taken was probably as satisfactory as could be achieved

Deputy M. Wimberley:

That is the question, is it not? The question was, what work was done to ensure that the review was carried out in accordance with best practice? So the question is, did you attempt to find out -- okay, so we are reviewing the speed limits and what is the right way to do this? Or did you follow your noses?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Perhaps you could just comment on that?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The Department and the officers obviously have great experience in terms of setting speed limit policy through their experience of undertaking previous studies. The process followed, although not specifically in accordance, but generally followed the Code of Practice -- I am trying to remember the title of the document, but it is the Code of Practice for setting local speed limits in the UK. It followed a similar process it that. The objective is, as has been stated, not to look at isolated areas, but to set the high level policy framework for setting speed limits and then specific incidents can obviously be dealt with in greater detail, whether it is best to put in traffic calming or change the speed limit for isolated areas. But the actual policy itself was set broadly in accordance. So it was informed by what the 85th percentile speeds are and the Island officers have a great deal of knowledge about that in various areas.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

So who would be advising the Panel on this?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

That would have been the Manager, Transport Policy and the Acting Senior Engineer.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): They are not present today?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

They are not present. They are unable to be present today, I am afraid.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I think I have pressed a little bit on this. You say that the process followed what would be done in the UK when setting local speed limits.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services: Broadly.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Our advice is that the process was really not the same as would be done in the UK in terms of the extent of the consultation and the attention paid to the facts around accidents and their incidence and where they occur and why they occur, and so on. It seems to me the process was not actually in line with UK best practice.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The information would have been available. The officers would have been able to advise on location, location. We are not Hampshire. We do not have a huge road network. So the officers know the road network in some detail. So the Working Party was able to benefit both from the consultation, the 800 odd replies received, and

also from the local knowledge of the traffic officers.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

Can I just add something here? I think we have to be very careful not to focus on accidents when the statistical analysis can be so swayed. The last three months have seen some horrific accidents in Jersey and if you based your policy on them, you would have a very bad policy. It is a factor involved, but it is not the whole factor. I think the expertise and experience on the Panel of having Constables and people who have been honoraries and people who have lived here all their lives is as valuable, if not more valuable, than taking some esoteric UK or European view. We have taken those views into consideration, but I think the key thing is local expertise and an understanding of how Jersey works. Accident statistics and any statistics in a small population are very dangerous to apply to setting policy and is something we have to be very careful of

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Which would lead you to adopt five year rolling averages, or similar ways of discovering trends.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

I would be even more cautious on that because there are so many other factors. The recent accident spike has been horrific.

Deputy D. Wimberley. Do you not accept that the last decade has seen a slowing down of the downward trend of the previous decade? It is more than unfortunate.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

But some of the factors, and this is the thing -- there are many factors in there. It is an enforcement factor. It is about an education factor with the change of population and where people perhaps have come from into Jersey and whether Jersey is subtly different in terms of our driving standards and our rules of the road. There are lots of other mitigating circumstances which are not just about speed limits.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Before you go any further, for the record, can we have one person talking at a time because it is all being taped and therefore if somebody else is interjecting, it is difficult for when it is transcribed.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

As I said, the five year rolling average is used by the Department as a tool when identifying particular accident black spots and what sort of treatment should be applied, whether it be (inaudible) surfacing or changing the geometry of those locations. What we have found is, because accident rates have dropped considerably, that we are actually going for lower thresholds than we would have done five or six years ago to trigger what type of treatments we put in.

Deputy S. Power:

May I just ask a question. In the public response to -- I do not know who I should address this to -- 2009 review, would you say that the response rate, which was low, was due to the fact that there was either public disinterest in speeding as a concern, or whether it was apathy, or whether it was just those that did respond had a specific interest in it?

Connétable G. Butcher.

A lot that did respond certainly seemed to be covering specific roads and where they lived and this sort of thing and not necessarily accident black spots, but the Department certainly felt that the public response that we got was quite good in terms of the online response, email and comments that came in. The public meeting we had was poorly attended. You can only ask these things. I mean, certainly on certain things within my own Parish, I have had quite a substantial response, if you are looking at percentages. That was predominantly a questionnaire that I put out, that I will give you copies of in a moment. But we felt the response was quite broad.

Connétable M. Jackson .

If I may come in, Chairman, you mentioned the poor response. I beg to differ. I think the response was excellent. If you compare that response with some of the responses that other consultations have had, I think it knocks them away.

Deputy D. Wimberley.

Okay. So moving onto accidents more specifically, what specific efforts did you make to identify places or areas where accident rates are particularly high? Relatively high?

Connétable G. Butcher.

We did not. That was not a factor that we looked at. Island wide, we did not task ourselves to look at specific areas and where limits are going to be and where they are not going to be. That would be dealt with further on with a Panel. The Department would look at their accident black spots. That was not the brief that we gave ourselves. We did spend -- I think it was a couple of hours with the States police, who did quite a long report for us. The feeling from them was that, in terms of accidents caused specifically by speed, three per cent, which is a very low figure. If you are looking at that as an answer to a question, I mean, most of our accidents on this Island are with careless driving and some drink driving, et cetera, but actual accidents, the figures that they gave us, the actual accidents that were caused by speed were three per cent, which is quite low considering there is something like 166,000 journeys a day

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I will come back to that aspect, but I just to want confirm the next question was going to be, is there an analysis of accidents over the road net work? I suspect the answer is no.

Connétable M. Jackson :

In effect, the Department has quite a large database of accidents that have taken place over the years and the information obviously imparted to the Panel on that by the officers involved. Once again, their knowledge of the Island and trends is not inconsiderable. I think that was the most pragmatic approach. The judgment, I think, on accidents, as had been inferred before, can be tipped by perhaps drinking issues and how much influence, for the sake of argument, has drink had over accidents in the past? Probably quite considerable. I suspect, and I do not think we will ever have the figures to prove it, that that might indicate the downward trend and then the leveling of that over the past few years, where there have been strong campaigns against drink driving. That has produced the immediate downward trend and I think that probably took place maybe ten years ago. Things have leveled out because the

public have actually got used to the fact that you do not drink and drive. So maybe, and this is purely my supposition -- maybe that is an argument for suggesting that figures have leveled out.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Okay. So, in terms of was there an analysis done of accidents over the road network to feed into the review, the answer is no because you relied on the informally put in knowledge of the officers?

Connétable M. Jackson :

No, we relied on the TTS database and the knowledge of the officers.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

We do have a map of road accidents? Jersey and the Department uses that when they are trying to identify specific locations. The Working Party's objective, of course, was to produce a -- to review the speed limit policy and set a framework to provide a hierarchy of speeds which then the Department could apply to specific locations. That is looking back in time.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Let us get this clear. The map is not in the documentation and the map was not used formally as part of the speed limits review, the map of accidents in Jersey?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think, to be fair, it fed into the review because the officers with the knowledge of the map, if you like, which is quite a complex map in itself, fed the information verbally

into the Panel, who took it into account.

Deputy K. Lewis :

The map itself I think is colour coded. So, obviously (inaudible) so it is quite comprehensive and, as I said, that was all fed in.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did the Working Group ask the Parishes or Magistrates' Court for further data?

Connétable M. Jackson :

The group consulted had their feedback from the Roads Committees on that. I think you have asked for corroboration of that from the Roads Committees recently. I do not know if that has come back to you yet. In terms of the police, there were meetings held with the police. So they all had an input into the review.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

But not the Magistrates' Court, who are, of course, a source of information about injury, accident and speeding, particularly speeding, in fact?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Yes, but I think that would come via the police. I do not think the Magistrates' Court per se are going to produce information that would be -- I do not think they have any information. I stand to be corrected.

Connétable G. Butcher.

I think that is correct. We did not think it would be beneficial to anybody at the

Magistrates' Court. We tended to deal with the people that were actively on the ground, being the States, the police, the honorary police in meetings that we had and Parishes.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The database that the officers used to form their views, obviously contains all the information as to what the causes of accidents were and what the contributing factors were. So that would have been what informed officers' views and opinions, which would have been fed into the group.

Deputy S. Power:

I was going to ask does the Department have regular meetings with the Parishes and with the police with regard to the incidence of accidents in specific areas of Parishes, or particular locations?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

Where a Parish raises an issue, the officers will meet with the Parish and will go and do an investigation of that site. That is not necessarily what we are talking about here. What we are talking about here is providing a framework and a hierarchy of speeds which the Department can apply.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

We have just set up, in light of the serious accidents we have had recently, a mechanism whereby the police speak to me if there is any potential improvement we can make to the road system

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The road safety Working Group as well, which meets, which contains reference to the police and the officers.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

But, historically, you had a group down at DVS, which actually investigated serious accidents? Is that group is still in existence, and if so, do they actually get involved on incidents like we have had in the last several months?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The DVS investigate vehicles and look for faults in vehicles and provide reports to the police. So that does happen, yes, and then the DVS sit on the safe roads Panel. So that is DVS, police, and TTS

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Were they involved in actually helping you pull this report together?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The Manager, Transport Policy sits upon that group and DVS also fed into the report

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

I am thinking of, say, the Chief Officer from DVS?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services: That is the Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Are you?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Of that area of responsibility, who is a traffic engineer. I presume would have fed into your report?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services: He did.

Deputy D. Wimberley.

Just to recap, there was not specific attention paid to particular areas which are known to be relatively accident prone and there was not a formal assessment of how the accidents over the Island, as represented by the map, were then fed into the review? It was all done verbally and with no formal assessment?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Because it was not felt, when the group first met, that that was our remit. Our remit was to look at the speed limits of the Island. We chose to go the more simplistic

route because many of us have comments, particularly from investors, as to how many different speed limits we have on this Island. So we took a simplistic approach. We were not looking at specific areas. There would be other bodies to look at that later, looking at the danger, if necessary. Ours was just to look at the range of speed limits that we have on the Island

Deputy D. Wimberley.

So, in a nutshell, consistency matters more than road safety? I am being brutal, but is that the --

Connétable G. Butcher: No, I do not think so.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services.

May I suggest you seem to have assumed a link between accidents and speed limits. I think that is a really dangerous assumption to make. I think if the Working Group had have made that assumption, then it is not the biggest issue. There are many issues with accidents. The speed limit is sometimes a very minor or inconsequential element of that.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did you then take evidence and experience from elsewhere where speed limits are lowered and accidents go down, as in 20 mph zones? I know they have treatments as well and they are not just a limit. They also have treatments as well, but the fact is the figures go down substantially.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services.

You can do what you want with signage. You can do anything you want with signage. That may change behaviour for some people, but what actually makes a difference when you are trying to protect vulnerable road users is the treatment of the road environment.

Deputy D. Wimberley. I said that.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

It is not about the speed limit. It is about the environment that you put people in.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services.

What I would just add to that, if you look at the policy and its application which comes out of the review group, what the Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services is saying is reflected in that because, as you are saying, Deputy , how drivers behave is very much affected by the environment around them and so the speed limit policy that is being provided takes cognisance of that, so there is a speed limit for roads of a urban nature; there is a speed limit for roads of a rural nature; there is a speed limit for roads of a residential nature. So it takes cognisance of the fact that drivers behave accordingly.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

May I put a question here to the Minister on this. The Chairman of the Working Group has just said that they were looking specifically at speed limits and other bodies would look at a later date at other areas. But, given that you brought a proposition to the States, it sounds as if the proposition is incomplete, given, if other bodies are going to be looking at specific areas at a later time, should that work not have been done prior to bringing the proposition to the States?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, I would not interpret it like that. I mean, I think the policy reviewed by the group was a general speed limit policy, which is what they have done. In the proposition, it is suggested that the Parish Connétable s will have input over specific areas and there will be a appeal mechanism should the general policy be felt to be out of tune with what the local feelings are. I think, in our small Island with its complexity of roads and administrations and so on, that is about the best we can achieve. The fundamental point, I think, as has been suggested by Deputy Wimberley, has to be towards road safety, but, having said that, we need to be in a position sensibly to review the accidents that have been taking place, not just by numbers on paper, but by local knowledge, taking on board that local knowledge, not only within the Parishes, but within the Department, and coming up with a pragmatic solution, which I think is what this proposal is doing.

Connétable G. Butcher.

May I just come in there on that. Maybe I did not portray it as well. What I meant by other bodies looking at it at a later date, if we get areas where we do find accidents are starting to occur because houses have changed, the geography of an area has changed, and it did not fall within what we recommended as the Island band and the built up area, that is our recommendation there, but, as things change over time, that is more what I meant where things will change. If we find accidents are starting to occur in a given area that might, shall we say be a 40-mile an hour zone, you have to look at it and say it may change over time. That was more the inference that I was making.

Deputy D. Wimberley.

Okay. So just a couple of questions, then, on looking at experience on a wider basis. The first goes back to something I have asked already, but I just want confirmation. Was any consideration given into research into the effect of 20-mile an hour zones in the UK? I do not just mean signing. I mean 20-mile an hour zones having an impact on KSIs. Was any consideration given to that in the review?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I would think that information was passed to us by our officers in discussion, rather than documentation.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Okay. The second question is in your report and proposition, there is no mention of the effect of different speeds on the severity of accidents, which was a major concern for me, certainly. Why is this?

Connétable G. Butcher:

It was not something we researched. It was policies for given roads that we looked at. Generally, common sense would tell you that, if you are doing a lower speed, there will be less damage if somebody runs into a car.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think that is fairly obvious, is it not? I mean, the whole review is a general review over speeding. I mean, it is obvious that higher speeds will incur greater injuries. I do not think anybody disputes that whatsoever. But the object of the review is not to get into a deep analysis of that. I mean, it is not really within its remit

Deputy D. Wimberley:

But, with respect, Minister, is not the object of the review to reduce the number of damaged people in the hospital?

Connétable M. Jackson : Well, no, the --

Deputy D. Wimberley: One of the objects?

Connétable M. Jackson :

It is an obvious consequence, again, but I think if we are going to start going down the accident analysis route, that is up for another review. This is generalisation of speed limits in the Island and we have taken a pragmatic response to it, which I think will achieve what the public want and produce the downward trend, which I think you are trying to achieve.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

So if it is true that it is common sense that lower vehicle speeds will lead to lower severity of accidents, which is the case, then will the Department be accepting the amendment of the Connétable of St Helier if this comes to debate, namely to have a 20-mile an hour speed limit across the whole of the area within the ring road on that basis?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think that depends on the public response, largely, because we have got a balance to be struck between having no traffic at all and no accidents whatsoever -- to having traffic all rolling at 15 miles an hour or 20 miles an hour, 30, what have you. We have to keep the converse of the traffic of the Island moving. We have to prevent accidents. Where is the midpoint? There has been comment over the amendment of the Connétable of St. Helier . I am not personally in total disagreement with his proposals. There are a few people that do disagree with it. So I think, once again, it is probably a matter for a States debate and the consensus of opinion.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Senator.

Senator A. Breckon:

May I ask if the Working Group consulted with the Chefs de Police about any speeding offences and how many were they, if they were dealt with at Parish hall and how many were referred to the Magistrates' Court?

Connétable G. Butcher.

No, we did not have that information. Some of it is on our own -- talking to our own honorary police. It was a general discussion with the Chefs de Police and quite a lot of what came out of that discussion is speeding on the Island is a perception, rather than a fact. I think the information that we have with the smiley signs now will back that up fairly well. There is a small percentage of people who will speed, but they are going to speed whatever speed limit you happen to put on a road

Senator A. Breckon.

Can I just come back. We have got a note of a minute of 21st July 2009. Can you just confirm that you do not know how many offences were dealt with at Parish halls for speeding?

Connétable G. Butcher:

No. I did not actually attend that meeting with the Chefs.  

Senator A. Breckon:

You do not know how many were referred to the Magistrates' Court?

Connétable G. Butcher: No.

Senator A. Breckon.

So you would not be able to say whether the situation at the moment is any better than it was or worse than it was five or ten years ago?

Connétable G. Butcher: No, I could not answer that.

Senator A. Breckon:

Do you think that is good that a Working Group is set up and it did not do that?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

That is a function of the enforcement as well, though, is it not?

Senator A. Breckon.

If you are investigating and if you set up a Working Group to investigate and you do not investigate, and that is an issue, that is factual, as opposed to opinion, that somebody says, "That car looks as if it is going fast," this is actual fact. So are you saying you set up a Working Group and they have not produced evidence? Is that what you are saying?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services: No, but we have a lot more evidence now.

Senator A. Breckon.

Where is the evidence of how many cars were speeding, whether it is more or less? Where is the evidence?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services.

We have the evidence now from the smiley signs, as opposed to the enforcement.

Senator A. Breckon:

Where is the history? Forget the smiley signs. Where is the history from five years?

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

One talking at a time. The question is to?

Senator A. Breckon: Where is the evidence?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Certainly, Senator, we have extremely good evidence now which was not available to us in the past, because in the past, without these smiley signs, which are proving quite effective, there was no hourly data, which is what we have now in terms of speeding. In the old days, all that you would have is a recorded speeding offence if there happened to be an honorary officer or a States police officer catching people. I think TTS used to put the old ribbons across the road from time to time, but the data that we are developing now is far, far greater. So it will help in the future. The data that we are receiving at the moment would certainly indicate that the ones that I have looked at that speeding -- a lot of it is perception, rather than fact. I would bear that out from ten years in the honorary police myself. When you are out there with a speed gun, if you ask the layman, "That car is doing 40 miles an hour," it is probably doing 28. It would depend on exhaust noise and whether it is coming up an incline. So there is a major perception about speed. The facts are that some people do speed and you are always going to get that, whatever. I cannot answer the Senator's question with any data, but it is from talking to experienced officers and having spent a lot of time myself and talking to our own officers in the Parish

Connétable M. Jackson :

May I just make a point in response to the Senator's remarks. I think in the event that one were to present the data from the Parish hall enquiries or from the Magistrates' Court, I think I need to take it in context. If I can, wearing a Connétable 's hat, just say how I respond to, shall we say, a public comment about speeding, having attended a police meeting last night, so almost straight from the horse's mouth. A buildings development down St Brelade's Bay, neighbours complaining about excessive speeding in a 20-mile an hour zone. Police go down there with the gun and, yes, there was quite a degree of excessive speeding, particularly when the builders are leaving the site at night. So we took the pragmatic view and went and spoke to the builders. We put the word out that there would be speed checks down there in the future and please ensure that the word goes around the building site. Now, that will be monitored in the next few days, but those figures, they will not hit the Parish hall enquiry; they will not hit the Magistrates' Court. Quite frankly, we do not seek to, and I speak generally for the police on the Island -- we do not seek to criminalise people unnecessarily. If there are areas where there are constant offenders, and it is fairly restricted to where the speed camera and speed devices will work, the equipment -- it has to be a clear line of sight and Graeme will corroborate this better than I can because he has personal experience of doing it, but it is fairly restricted where you can use these. So I think the information which one might gather has to be taken with a pinch of salt. I think the direct information from the Chef de Police verbally to the Panel to me would be of greater value.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

Also, may I just add to that. The officers have obviously already informed the group and the officers have access to the database of traffic counters which record (inaudible) speeds at a number of locations and have a history going back some considerable time, if not decades.

Senator A. Breckon:

The only thing is, of course, that we now have a proposition that is (inaudible). Somebody says, "Why are we doing this? What is the evidence to do that?" And there is all sorts of bits and pieces, but there is not something that you can look at and say, "This was 2005 and this was 2010," because, from another point of view, the police are saying there are thousands of offences every day, but it is not policeable. So why are we making laws and regulations to do something in certain areas, and it looks a bit confused to me, I must say, that is before the States, when we do not have the evidence to say it will make any difference? What difference will it make?

Connétable M. Jackson :

My opinion is that it will make it easier for the motorist to comply with the speed limits which we are suggesting, because presently there seems to be confusion from the point of view of the motoring public about what speed they are supposed to be doing, particularly in areas where they are not consistent. You might get an area that is 40 and it is 30 and perhaps down to 20 and up to 40 again. This is something the group have endeavoured to iron out. I think they have satisfied the requirements of the proposals of Deputy Gorst in conducting a review of the present policy to bring it up to modern needs.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

I will come in there, Senator. You mentioned that the confusion of the various speed limits. I would not say that there is not, but, given that we are an Island that has probably half a million tourists a year into the Island, should we not be giving that some serious consideration and whatever we put in place, given, if we are going to -- if the States were to accept your proposition, you are going to have umpteen number of roads which you are going to have to put additional signage on when you have got a 40-mile an hour road, which all of a sudden loses its white lines for a hundred yards and then it is continued. How are you going to resolve that with the tourists? How are you going to sell that to our tourists that come to this Island. Historically, we had a problem with the yellow lines. So the public service of their day did the yellow

lines but in front they put a UK and European standard of a white hatch.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think one of the difficulties is that we have not only got English tourists, who are used to the English way, but we have also got a lot of continental tourists and one of the issues alluded to earlier on which I picked up was that of course we have considerable number of Portuguese/Madeiran drivers. We have an enormous number of Poles over here. Each country with its different rules and regulations, apart from the French, of course. So what do we do? Do we blindly follow the UK route, or do we stick to our own, based on our own experience and pursue that? I have to say I do not feel that we should be led by the nose, so to speak, by what others do. Notwithstanding that, I think we should learn from experience in other jurisdictions, but we have our acceptable form of road markings over here and I do not really see there is great evidence to change that.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Coming back onto what you have just said there, we have agreements where our driving licences are accepted in quite a number of countries around the world and they accept it for what we currently have, which is not unsimilar to the UK. By ploughing our own furrow in a slightly different way, do you think that some of those agreements might be called into question by, shall we say, the Australians or other countries who accept our driving licences at the moment?

Connétable M. Jackson :

It could be, yes, but the converse could apply as well. We might call into question some of the arrangements in other countries, which have all evolved, let us face it,

over the years. I do not think ours is as bad as all that.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

Just to add, there is some advice given by the head of DVS on this matter. The head of DVS was concerned if you introduced an Island wide 30-mile an hour limit that the people being tested for the driving skills would not have experience of a wide range of speeds and there are certain speeds that you need to drive at during a driving test. The proposal satisfies the concerns of the head of DVS and we do not envisage -- we do not anticipate any problems with this.

Deputy S. Power:

Are any steps taken to test the three per cent figure given in evidence as being the proportion of accidents in which speed was the major contributing factor? I think we covered some of that, but do you have analysis?

Connétable G. Butcher:

We do not have an analysis, other than the discussions that we had with the States police. I would assume that they must have analysis to come up with that figure in the first place.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Yes, but given that it is the most important single figure, the three per cent where speed is the main contributing factor, that suggests that speed is not a major issue in respect of causing accidents in Jersey. So then would you not think you need to test that, because it is on the face of it quite surprising?

Connétable G. Butcher:

But, from a speed perspective, it might not be speed over 40 miles an hour; it could be speed at 15 miles an hour on a greasy, wet road with leaves covering it. There was no analysis done on that, but if you drive too fast on wet leaves, that still, if you have an accident, speed would be the contributory factor for that. It does not have to be 60 or 70 miles an hour.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

No, I am just asking. I agree that the police's job is, if they are going to come up with that figure, to do that kind of analysis. I am just asking whether the Panel, the Working Group, rather, tested that in any rigorous way?

Connétable M. Jackson :

In terms of the test, I suppose, the TTS has quite a large database of accidents and in most of them it was determined that other factors, apart from speed, tend to be the main or the secondary contributory factors. So that knowledge was imparted to the group, so I think they made a reasonable assumption on that and I think that would have been sufficient evidence.

Deputy S. Power:

Can we talk with average speeds for a moment? What does the Department view is the average speed on the Island and how does our accident profile compare to other places in the UK? Would anyone like to take that one?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, in terms of averages, that information can be drawn out from the smiley face

instruments, because they are producing figures and I do not know if we have that evidence that has come through yet.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The Department has, as I say, considerable records going back in time from the speed counters and so they would accord what is known as the 85th percentile speed, which is the speed that 85 per cent of the traffic travels at or below and the officers would have used that to inform the discussions of the group. It varies from location to location and depending on the nature of the road and the surrounding environment.

Deputy S. Power:

Does the Department know what the average commute speed is during peak times?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, in certain places where we have measuring devices, yes. Otherwise, it is a question of putting the instrumentation down if there was a particular need to establish an average speed. What we will tend to do and it is what I would do in

St. Brelade , if I get regular complaints of traffic speeding by members of the public, we can arrange through TTS to have some sort of measuring device put down or put smiley SID up in place to establish what the average is. In terms of the smiley sign, that, once again, relies on a line of sight approach to get that right. So, if you are talking about speeding round a bend, (inaudible) on the road.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Did the Connétable have all this information given to the Working Group?

Connétable G. Butcher: About average speeds?

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Yes.

Connétable G. Butcher: No.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Principally because the smiley speed devices, signs were put out on recommendation of the group initially to try and get to some sort of evidence, if you like, of average speeds, and each Parish was allocated one of these signs as a result of a recommendation.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

That was a sign, but the other information, you did not have it?

Connétable G. Butcher:

No, no. We did not have that information. We started building it up in a Parish ourselves and at the moment, I know certainly we are doing so, but all of the Parishes have the data that they are picking up from their smiley signs and that is being fed into the road safety Panel.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

So that has happened since your review, has it not?

Connétable G. Butcher:

No, we started to do it prior to that because we already had -- not every Parish had a smiley sign. We have ended up with a second one now to do with the review, but we had already purchased one in our Parish. So we were starting to build up that data and obviously they give us a vast amount of information, not only on the speed, but the best time to hold a speed check, because it limits it down to sort of half hour segments. So it gives you a very good idea of when to be in the right place, if you like, if you want to make the public aware that you are about doing these things.

Deputy S. Power:

Would you think it is fair to say that, during the normal commute window, between 7.00 am and 9.00 am and 4.30 and 6.15, or whatever it is, that the speed limit policy, as it is at the moment, does not give cause for concern and that the actual shunt accidents that you get at peak traffic times are normal? Did you look at that in terms of your own speed limit review?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Most of the commute roads are pretty well all 40-mile an hour roads anyway. We were not looking to review that in any way, shape or form, apart from minor ones to do with the Island Plan. Most of our recommendations come around country lanes, all sorts of country lanes that really are not too much used as commuter routes.

Deputy S. Power:

My point was that would you agree that, during peak traffic times, morning and evening, speed limits are not a major concern because the actual average commute

speed is lower than that?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I would agree, particularly since the estimate has been dug up.

Deputy S. Power:

Would you also agree that the major incidents that the Deputy of St. Mary 's is referring to really occurs outside peak commute times and, as such, they are what I call "maverick accidents"? They are the accidents that are not typical of the vast majority of commuters on the Island?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Well, that is right. I mean, my view would be, generally during commuter times, traffic is quite heavy. So very rarely do you find speeders at that time. But obviously late at night or in the evening, when there is not much traffic on the road, they will be times that people tend to put their foot down if they can. The commute times, I would say my view would be --

Deputy S. Power: Self-regulatory?

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Deputy ? no. Would you continue, please, and take over on your questioning?

Senator A. Breckon.

I am just wondering if we have missed anything. Coming to research and speed

problems, based on the evidence of actual recorded speeds, it is known that many people have a perception that levels of speeding are higher than they in fact are. I think you have touched on that. The States police submission highlighted the difference between perceived and actual road safety issues. Yet, apart from the results of a very limited consultation exercise, no evidence of any meaningful research to identify the scale of speeding problems or relate this to the overriding question of road safety either appears in the Working Group report or has been provided to us in any response to information for requests. Was actual evidence not felt necessary to support the conclusions of the review? If not, why not? I touched on this before.

Connétable M. Jackson :

In terms of the information, I suppose, the responses to the consultation indicating a preference to higher limits on some of the roads -- I am trying to -- I am not quite understanding your question.  

Senator A. Breckon:

People would say a lot of the responses were, you know, down such and such a road, people are hammering down here. The other side of that is, if you go Bagatelle Road certain times of the day, you cannot move at any speed all. With schools and colleges, you just cannot move. But if you go up there at 10 o'clock at night, that is when you might have an issue. So what we were saying was, you know, with the consultation, people might have said, you know, in Bagatelle Road at 10 o'clock at night, there is all sorts of idiots down here, but not at nine in the morning, because we cannot do that. So as part of the consultation, was any consideration given to this sort of extremes, if you like, and also the difference between perceived and actual?

Again, it is coming back to evidence from the police or the Parishes or anybody else.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Generally speaking, the police evidence is nine times out of ten that perceived is far less than the actual. That perception is very often dictated by the nature of the road. For instance, if you have a road with a pavement, you will get -- you will not have the same perception issues as if you have a road without a pavement. I think Deputy Power will be familiar with a road (inaudible) fairly steep sided road, not much pavement and new development up alongside it and there is a perception that there are speeding vehicles down there, but several police checks have indicated that is not the case. So I think, once again, the local knowledge has been taken to influence the decision and the results of the review on this and we felt that is probably better evidence or as good evidence as one can possibly get.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

Just adding to that, it is the Department's experience, particularly where we have been asked to investigate speed in certain areas, often the perception of speed is far higher than the actual speed for the very reasons you said and as the Minister said. So the Department can support that. In terms of setting speed limit policy, I mean, speed limit policy is for people who drive within the Highway Code. Where people depart from the Highway Code, that is a matter for the blue light services, whether it be the police or the ambulance service if they get it seriously wrong.

Senator A. Breckon:

What about the historic information from the rubber strips that used to be down the boxes? I know where the Parish is, the Parish used to say, "Well, there is an issue here", and again come being back to St. Saviour . Langley Park Avenue, for example, there were issues there where there is no footpath and school children and whatever else and strips were put down and then analysis was produced which showed there were times of the day and night where things were done. Is that stuff kept on record?

Connétable M. Jackson :

It is all kept on record. Going back to the generality of the review, that detail has not come into it, but, obviously, it fed the officers' advice who fed the review group's findings.

Senator A. Breckon:

I am just saying with people with a vested interest, if they lived in that area, and I know because it used to be the district would say we get all sorts of lunatics running up and down day and night, but, having said that, that would register as somebody complaining about speed limits when it is not necessarily about the speed limits. It is about somebody living where there is a particular problem. Speed is an issue, so therefore I said I agree you have had a lot of responses but some of those could be specific to a hundred yards stretch of road.

Deputy K. Lewis :

This is interesting how, with the perception of speed as well, with the old sort of trip strip, so you know what people -- what speeds are doing at certain times of day and night. Now we have the smileys and it is also an aid to the driver, who may not be aware that they are speeding. So that helps, too.

Connétable M. Jackson .

I think, if I can just go on from your point in terms of localised speeding issues and what do we do about it, I mean there are two sides of what do TTS do about it and what do Parishes do about it, and there are a number of remedies. Of course, those remedies will have consequences and one has to think those through. Speed bumps, for instance. I mean, if you decide to put a speed bump, you put a speed bump next to domestic accommodation, and it will be a matter of hours before you have a howl of protest from the person who hears bang, bang all the time. So that can have an effect. So speed limiting or speed reducing mechanisms are a fairly fine art. We have various attempts in the Island to do this. Some work better than others, but there are consequences which have to be thought through.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I do find this whole area very odd, because I would echo exactly the comments of the Senator about the specific area in my Parish and if anyone had asked, they would have been told: (a) this is dangerous; (b) I feel endangered; and (c) do something. Yet all these exceptions, all these particular places seem to have been excluded from the review. So you are going to set a general policy and then you, the Minister, is going to have wads and wads of people coming to you and saying, "Please make an exception. Please make an exception. Please make an exception." How do you feel that sits with the aim of creating a policy?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I do not think so. I would not expect a large number of people to come up with that. I think we have inferred in the report that the Parish Connétable s will have considerable input and I have a lot of faith in the Parish Roads Committees to come forward with localised issues which we take on board. I have to say that it may not have been the policy with my predecessor to work with the Parish Roads Committees, but that committee is somewhat changed now. We have developed a relationship

with the Parishes which I think is conducive to a good policy for the Island in general. There are road traffic engineering principles to which our officers adhere, generally speaking. There are localised issues. I think it is a question very often of melding those two to come up with an equitable result.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

May I ask whether consideration of those particular cases coming to you will be, if you like, biased in favour of the people who live on the road and their concerns and the fact that they think the traffic is going too fast? Never mind about the speed limit. They think the traffic is going too fast. So will they take precedence, if you like, over the people who are passing through and who think it is their road, but in fact it is the road for the people who are trying to walk along it to get to the shop, alive.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Yes. I know this is your proposed change, if you like. Surely one individual cannot have more say in a Parish assembly than another? If a particular individual is concerned about speeding in another area, I think they need to put their opinions forward at a Parish assembly or if it is a Parish issue or a main road issue. We are quite happy to review that if, as I have said before -- if there are localised incidences of speeding, the first thing we have to do is get some sort of evidence to corroborate what people are saying. If that evidence is borne up by the actual evidence, rather than the perception, we need to do something about it and we would not hesitate to do so.

Connétable G. Butcher:

May I just come in here on that. Certainly, from a Constable's point of view, and I am sure all Constables are the same, we get feedback from a number of people in given areas, all around our Parishes. What we have adopted in St. John 's, and I know other Constables have done the same, if we have got a post there, we will put the smiley sign to get the evidence. If we have not got a post there, we will do just that. But one thing I would just add at the moment to that, and you do get people complaining about speed and most people that live on a green lane, 15 miles an hour, will complain about speed. But I will guarantee you, if you hold a police check on that green lane and it will be the resident that is you will catch speeding. I am sorry to say, but I know that is a fact, having done it myself on a number of occasions. So there is a real balance to be struck and I do not disagree with you, Deputy . If an area is dangerous, but I know you are very much one for evidence, and what we need is the evidence. So you will put the smiley sign there. You will have police monitoring. But it is not always speed that is the danger. Somebody driving slowly can just as easily knock somebody down if they pick their mobile phone up.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I am worried about this emphasis on the evidence of the Smileys and what speeds people are doing. I am concerned that you will also take into account the views and feelings of the people walking along that road. That is just as important an as what the Smiley says.

Connétable M. Jackson : I agree. Absolutely.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

May I just add one question about HGVs which do not occur anywhere else in the document at all. Have you taken into account the fact that HGVs affect people's perceptions completely –

Connétable G. Butcher: Absolutely.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Why is it not in the report? There is no change. Did you consider any change?

Connétable G. Butcher:

We did discuss change and decided that 30 miles an hour was slow enough for HGVs. Again, a lot of it is perception. Where a particular area, we had sort of two quarters up in St. John and the (inaudible) in particular tend to go down through the Queen's Road way and they come up on (inaudible) so we try to avoid the two big lorries passing, but it only applies to Ronez. It is an agreement that they have achieved, but we have major perception problems, if you like. If you go there, the vehicles are not speeding, but there are narrow pavements and there may be some justification in

some traffic calming measure in that particular area in our Parish.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

What is the basis for your saying that 30 miles an hour is slow enough for HGVs? What is the basis for that?

Connétable G. Butcher: Opinion.

Deputy D. Wimberley: Whose opinion?

Connétable G. Butcher: Mine.

Connétable M. Jackson .

There is a perception with tractors as well. Many people complain that tractors are speeding around the Island, because they are not the old-fashioned Massey Fergusons any more. They are the huge tractors now, trundling around, and the perception is they are doing 40 or 50 miles an hour, but in fact they are doing 30, but they are so big and bulky that the perception is that they are speeding.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Senator.

Senator A. Breckon:

Can I just relate this to something and see if this has an effect. If we take an example of carrier bags and charging 5p -- I know that is something else you have a responsibility to get rid of now, but it has actually changed people's habits. So can you tell us what approach was taken to establish the extent of changes which would be brought about the policy to bring about change? What was going to be in this policy that would actually change and maybe carrier bags is an extreme example -- change people's habits, say, and the way they do things, say on main roads, Parish roads, back roads, Green Lanes? What is in this policy that will make me think now I

have to do that or I should not be doing this?

Connétable M. Jackson :

"Built up area, slow down." That is, I think, the effect that we want to see, so that, in an area which has people being, shall we say, children precipitated onto a road, there will be a presumption that the traffic will need to go slower. I think that is what we are trying to achieve to get that message through. I think, to make the motoring public react, there has to be consistency to that, so that, in all places, it is as close to that as we can get. Clearly, in Jersey, it is not easy; it is not black and white. There will always be a bit of grey, but we have to get a policy which is going to try and achieve that.

Senator A. Breckon:

What about if we say Bagatelle Road. If I go up there or whatever and I am a little bit late and going whenever, what is there to tell me if there is not much traffic about and I must not do this? What is in the policy that is going to stick with people where you have got a connection that says yeah, you must do this because we are all breaking the law every day? In fact, you just mentioned it. The reason I say that is you are going to introduce all these rules and regulations, but how do you police them, and who is going to --

Connétable M. Jackson .

I have to say, to go back to square one, this is not a massive, fundamental change to the existing policy. It is almost a tweak. In fact, Tristen has a map there which will show you, so you can see it is not enormous. We would like to be practical and pragmatic and show you what we are trying to get to. We are trying to make it easier

for the public to understand, to achieve a higher safety record, and basically adapt the policy to the latest Island plan, which is the smaller framework we have to work with.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

May I ask, you have just said, "the effects we want to see ...", which is in a built up area that people should slow down -- what would be the effect of this policy on the main road to St. Aubins, for example, and round the corner?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, I would expect, and I am speaking probably with a little bit of Parish Constable influence, that the centre part of the St. Aubins, probably church to church, would come down to 20. That would be dictated by the fact that there is a lot of people precipitating on the road; there are houses and commercial premises.

Deputy D. Wimberley.

May I ask where that is in the policy? Where there is a lot of commercial premises on the road and where there is a lot of people around, it comes down to 20 in urban areas?

Connétable M. Jackson :

That particular situation is -- you can interpret and I do not like to call it a "village situation", because if you refer to St. Aubins as being a village, there is great objection because it is a town because it has a market -- so I refer to the town of St. Aubins. It would be coming to that policy.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

But it is not actually in the speed limits review like that? It would be a special case?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think villages are referred to.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

But they are referred to at 30, I am sorry? Are they not? Do I have that wrong?

Connétable M. Jackson :

It could well be referred to as a special case. If you take --

Deputy D. Wimberley.

We are on public roads and urban built up areas

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think that becomes more than urban built up when you are actually into a village situation

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Into housing estates. St. Aubins is a housing estate. Sorry, I asked --

Connétable M. Jackson .

It is a question of interpretation. I think this is where you do need the Constable's influence to base the opinion on what happens locally.

Would the Minister agree that -- you mentioned the word "tweaking" your policy -- do you think the policy you currently have is fine if it was actually policed?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Not quite. I think -- "tweaking" I think is a word that does need to take place. There are areas we referred to where we have this variation in speed limits which is causing tremendous confusion to the public. My view is that the present speed limits, if we agreed to this change, or the proposed changes, need to be clearly indicated to the motoring public, so they do know what they are supposed to be doing. I think there is a lack of signage and, once again, you tread on dangerous ground by suggesting more signage, but in practice repeater signs, additional repeater signs, I think would be of great value.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Would you not agree, though, over recent years, we have seen less and less police vehicles on the highway and actually being active as a deterrent to people committing offences and we hear that there were 10,000 a day minor offences being committed by motorists by the States police? That being the case, do you not believe that, in the first instance, before going to the trouble of even introducing this policy, this new law that you are proposing, to make sure that everything is being done not only by the States police, but also by the honorary police to police what we have actually got before doing any amendments? Then, once we find out that what we have got is working for 95 per cent or for 80 per cent of the Island, then you start looking at where you need to do any tweaking?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, I think there are two aspects to it. One is quite clearly the policing aspect and I can tell you from what I heard last night at a police meeting that the States police will be doing some focusing on some speeding issues during the course of this month, March. Yes, during the course of this month. The honorary police continue to pick areas in the particular Parishes where there are perceived issues, perceived speeding issues. So maybe the change of direction at the top of States of Jersey police has altered that and we will look forward to that. Going back to the changes, I think it is important to get the consistency changes and the alignment with the Island plan in place as soon as possible to avoid and obviate confusion for the general public.

Deputy S. Power:

Would you think it is fair to say, Constable, that in the overall Department's approach to speed limits and the previous review, that change per se will be applied with a light touch, as distinct from bringing in -- would you think it is fair to say that there is not a great need to change much and what we have at the moment more or less works, with some tweaking around the edges?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Yes. I do not know what Mr. Butcher's view on that would be?

Connétable G. Butcher.

I would tend to agree with that. I have to say we were instructed by the States to do the review. Where would we be if we had done the review and then taken no action? We felt that there was some action needed and we have made some recommendations and the Minister has come forward with those recommendations. Some them were around policing, trying to simplify the situation, because the States police themselves admit that, if they were doing a speed check, they could barely do three an hour with the paperwork that is involved. So we took a look at it and came up with some suggestions for the Home Affairs Minister to look at for the future to make things simpler. It is not about generating money. It is about getting people out there to do some work. You know, the honorary police, as you all know, put in an awful lot of time, free time, into doing it, and you cannot even get the paid police out there doing the job. So there is an issue to be dealt with there, certainly, but I think some simplification of how it is dealt with would be useful, which is why we have made the recommendations.

Deputy S. Power.

Two questions, then, in relation to the conduct of the review. Other than the stakeholders that have been identified, did you not think it necessary at the time to have some discussions or to bring in people like public transport operators, freight transport operators, emergency services, people like that.

Connétable G. Butcher:

We did not feel it would be beneficial because we looked at various areas there and I would imagine that had we got freight people in, they would have wanted us to speed it up a little bit so they can get around, but, no, we did not feel that --

Deputy S. Power.

I asked the question specifically in relation to the Deputy of of St. Mary 's question in terms of HGV operators and Senator's Breckon's comments on agricultural contractors. Do you not feel it might have been useful to have their view, to balance up the review?  

Connétable G. Butcher:

At the time, obviously, we did not, because it is certainly, when we started the review, those areas were not coming out as major concerns for everybody.

Deputy S. Power.

My last sort of question on this section, and correct what I said earlier -- not correct, but to qualify what I said. I said of the response to the review and I probably used the word "small", but to the limited response that was to the review, would you not agree or would you agree or disagree that in general those members of the public that do not have concerns do not want to make a comment?

Connétable G. Butcher:

That would go without saying. A lot of the responses, as you have seen, were about personal areas, presumably where people live and we have sorts of tried to analyse those and come up with a broad based idea of what people might want. Obviously, we have not gone to extremes where people wanted vastly increased speed limits because we think the policy is about right, but we felt there were areas that needed some moving and country lanes in particular

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

May I come back now to your plan here. What I do not see on this plan, and we did ask for, is the roads, and there must be many miles of them, which go from 40 miles an hour to 30 miles an hour. They are not marked on this plan and we did request it from your Department. Where are they? How many miles are they or how many areas are they within the 500 odd miles of road on the Island? Or the 450 miles of road on the Island? Where are all these 40 to 30-mile an hour areas? I can think of two. One on our Trinity border in St. John 's and one on our St. Mary 's border, but I am sure there are many others around the Island

Connétable G. Butcher:

Certainly, Chairman, mileage wise, I think there is about 175 miles of road that would drop from 40 to 30.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Would it not be a good idea to have a map showing what the changes were?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I am sure it could be achieved

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

We did request one from the Department. What we have got there is identical. This arrived in the last week or ten days, but it does not show the areas of -- you say

175 miles

Connétable M. Jackson .

It is obviously the ones marked in blue are the reductions to 30.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

The ones in blue are 30 miles an hour limits at present are they not?

Connétable G. Butcher:

That is urban areas, presumably, is it, rather than the Parish roads?

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman). We have requested it twice.

Connétable G. Butcher:

Certainly, just as an ideal, in St. John 's I think there is about 13 miles of road, Trinity has probably got about 26, I think

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Which would be reduced from 40 to 30?

Connétable G. Butcher: Yes.

Deputy D. Wimberley.

Can you tell us how it is stated the policy which affects a third of the Island's roads, without knowing which ones they are?

Connétable M. Jackson :

My understanding is that the map is marked up with the changes and I am sorry if you do not have the map I have seen, but there is a map

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Is this the map over there? The same that we have.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services.

There is the one in St. Mary 's which is mentioned.

Connétable M. Jackson :

The pages are marked. I think they have been emphasised in dots, if you like.  

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): That is not 175-miles.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I do not think it is that much. We can work out the mileage, but the changes are not great. Effectively, those are the only --

Deputy D. Wimberley:

175 miles and it is not great? Sorry, I do not see that. We cannot see which ones they are.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Potential changes to the speed limits for -- these are the existing Green Lanes are shown in green, existing 20 in red and existing 30 is in purple. Now, the changes are shown in dotted.

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

Certainly all the significant changes. I think this captures the significant changes to the main road network. Now, I think a lot of roads which you are referring to are probably Parish roads, which do not have the centre line, which are not shown

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

May I stop you there. Minister, you said there was 175 miles.

Connétable G. Butcher. No, I said 175 miles.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Sorry, could you identify what they are in each Parish, Conettable?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I can certainly do my Parish, but not on a map now. We can provide it for you.  

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Right. Okay. Thank you.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

May I ask now -- I am going to move on from the point about the map: It was just about these roads going from 40 to 30, what concerns me and there may be a simple answer, is that some of the roads going from 40 to 30 are single lane narrow traditional and some are considerably wider where two cars can pass abreast, but still no white line and I can think of examples of both in my own Parish. Is there really no difference in the policy between those two kinds of roads? Where there isn't room to pass at all, single width and just the odd entrance, of course, and then where it is two cars wide?

Connétable G. Butcher:

The white line issue I think is the key there. If the road was wide enough, it would have a central white line. If two cars can pass, a car and a lorry might have difficulty to pass. The white line issue I think was the key from our perspective and certainly the majority if not all Parish roads are without a central white line. Vehicles can pass with care. Two vehicles at 40 miles an hour probably would not pass with care

Deputy D. Wimberley.

That is fair enough. I am just wondering whether the two classes should be lumped together, the single lane --

Connétable G. Butcher:

We just took the view of simplicity: no white line, 30 miles an hour.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

You think that is adequately slow for a narrow lane that just happens not to be a green lane?

Connétable G. Butcher:

If it is a single lane, you certainly might be doing that speed if there is nothing coming the other way, but you certainly will not be doing it if there is

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman). Right. Okay. Let us move on

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services.

May I just add that the Highway Code requires you to drive at a speed and manner

that is safe for the road conditions and the speed limit is not a target.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Okay. Minister, it is proposed to conduct a debate on this matter without informing States Members of the full extent of the changes they might be voting for and, given that I have already mentioned an area to do with this, will every Member be issued a map of the Island with the various changes on it, because you cannot go into a debate without having the -- the Members having all the evidence?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I agree entirely, Deputy , with that, and I think it would be sensible for me to do that.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Okay. Let us move on. Let us move onto our Green Lanes. Did you consult any user Green Lanes before taking this particular step?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Any specific user, we consulted the public and I assume they all use Green Lanes at some stage. I do, you do.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Did you discuss it with walking groups? With horse riding groups? Cycling groups? And the like? Plus obviously the users of the green lane who actually live in it?

Connétable G. Butcher:

We consulted with the public and I certainly know we had a lot of consultations. As a

point of interest, I did an exercise in my Parish, which you are aware of, just to get some idea. Those are the results.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

Is that for the Panel to have as evidence, then?

Connétable G. Butcher: Yes.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman). Good. Thank you.

Connétable G. Butcher:

The small package is obviously users of Green Lanes

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

May I put this to you, Chairman, this was carried out after your review and your report to the Minister?

Connétable G. Butcher: Yes.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): It was, thank you.

Connétable G. Butcher:

Just for some clarity, within my own Parish.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Yes, thank you.

Connétable M. Jackson :

If I can comment, Chairman, if I may, on the Green Lanes issue, in terms of public input, apart from the evidence received from the public consultation, Parish Roads Committees were consulted on this and their feedback drove the decision of the Panel. Now, you will be aware that I think probably all the Green Lanes come under the remit of the Parish Roads Committee and I do not think there were any exceptions to that. Their views are quite fundamental. They have responsibility for maintaining them. They walk them regularly. They know exactly that is going on and they in fact, of course, in turn receive public feedback. So their opinion I think must be considered seriously

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman).

This comes on nicely to the Chairman again. Given you have had this feedback, what prompted you to recommend the 20-mile an hour limit?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Again, I think, simplicity. Again, trying to have three different speed limits in the Island, it was certainly felt by the group and the feedback that we received that a 5-mile an hour increase was not a significant problem. A lot of people did comment that they found that keeping some cars at 15 miles an hour was exceedingly difficult, but the decision was not made on that basis. I drive down Green Lanes on a regular basis, as I am sure you do. Certainly, 20 miles an hour, and I have tried it, is not an excessive speed. Dry roads, you can stop without creating a skid. So we did not feel that that was a major problem. There is I think something like 50 miles of Green Lanes in the Island. Two Parishes do not have any and they are fairly substantial Parishes, Trinity and I think St. Saviour s, and they do not have any Green Lanes at all. The users, you know, horse riders, you know, I live on a 40-mile an hour road and I have constantly got horse riders going by. The use of the Parish roads is quite extensive. They do not just use the Green Lanes.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did you consider any impacts of this increase, indirect impacts, of the signal that is sent by saying they are not 15 any more, they are 20?

Connétable G. Butcher:

They are still Green Lanes. I would assume that you are referring to Tourism and the amendment that is in. I was quite surprised that Tourism did not get in touch with us when we were doing the review.

Deputy D. Wimberley: Maybe you did not ask them.

Connétable G. Butcher: It was advertised.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think I may, chairman, pick up on that. I was disappointed that there was no

previous input to the consultation process. The consultation was heavily advertised in the normal way and received quite a lot of on air comment at the time. It was disappointing that there was no input from Tourism until later on, because it would have been appreciated. Subsequently, we have had a response and, whilst one could have immediately reacted and said keep the 15-mile an hour limits, the evidence is there to suggest that there is considerable body of opinion that thinks they ought to be 20. So I have decided to leave it for the States Members to discuss the amendment, vote on it, and that will dictate what it needs to be. I think that is a reasonable approach.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did you consider alternatives -- the issue is behaviour, is it not? The issue is being safe in the Green Lanes. It is not really it being 20 or whatever. It is about people getting along with each other. So did you consider alternatives to speed limits that would still, picking up what the Senator was saying, about changing behaviour -- did you consider alternatives to raising or keeping the speed limit the same, to tackle this issue around Green Lanes and people's perception and many people think they do not feel quite safe? Did you consider alternatives to speed limits?

Connétable G. Butcher:

What I have considered since then, we would be doubling the speeding fines in Green Lanes. That is something that has come about from various trips to America, where, if there is any road works, speeding fines are automatically doubled. That is something that could be considered as a deterrent. It was just felt that 15-miles an hour was too slow by the majority of the public that responded. I think in the main survey, it was about 50 to 67 per cent and in my own it is over 75 per cent of

Parishioners feel that 20 miles an hour is fine. But a lot of the comments do say that they need to be policed. So there might be some merit in making them pedestrian priorities.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

May I put a question to you on this. Given that, as Chairman of the Working Group, were the residents in the various Green Lanes in the various Parishes and close into Green Lanes -- were these people actually consulted at all?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Specifically targeted, no. Certainly, within my own Parish, I have had fairly vociferous response from people that live on the Green Lanes.

Connétable M. Jackson :

Just an observation of the comments that came back from the public: There was quite a broad support, and I do not have the numbers to give you, but it was quite interesting analysing the report from a lot of people who clearly lived on the Green Lanes, because they said so, to suggest that they would be quite supportive of a 20-mile an hour limit. I cannot say that was 100 per cent, and we could pass the public response for you to analyse yourselves, but there was clearly an indication from many that they supported that.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

Can I just add there is a Sustainable Transport Policy which the States have agreed to and voted in last year which supports protecting the vulnerable road user and Green Lanes are particularly -- there is emphasis where I think (inaudible) from Guernsey (inaudible) which changed the priority of the road user and, although there is a speed limit on there, the signage is very different and the treatment of the road is very different. One of the issues with 15 miles an hour is the Deputy on his bicycle would break that speed limit going downhill. So that is when it becomes really difficult

Deputy D. Wimberley:

That is right. I think you said twice now pedestrian priority or vulnerable user priority and I fully agree. Have you looked at ways that might be carried through so that it actually happens in practice?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services: Yes.

Deputy D. Wimberley: What ways?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

That is within the Sustainable Transport Policy and it is about shared space and changing the emphasis of the road. We do not want to go down the speed hump and speed attenuation sort of mechanisms, but there are other mechanisms to make it a bit trickier to go down the road.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

May I ask why you do not want to go down the road of traffic calming?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services: We do, but it is finding the

right mechanism. The mechanism should not be speed humps and infrastructure. We have a beautiful Island which has a magnificent network of roads on it and it is making that better for the vulnerable road user and slightly more inconvenient for the vehicle.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Surely you have some excellent examples, like coming down St Anne's Hill, for instance, where you give way to traffic coming in one direction and you have Green Street likewise where you do not have speed humps, et cetera, and you have traffic calming measures and you see many of them in France, for instance, and we all go there from time to time. Without speed humps, are these really taken on board within the Department?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services: Absolutely.

Connétable M. Jackson :

There are other considerations. Very often these situations the emergency services must have an input. Any commercial presence, in which you have to get larger vehicles through, has to have a consideration. No, we are very supportive of things like that, but finding satisfactory road calming measures which are acceptable to all parties is not easy.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Chairman, the Minister mentioned the emergency services. Within your Working Group, did you interview the senior officers of fire service, the ambulance service -- I

know you dealt with the police -- and any other emergency service?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Most of that feedback came via the officers and our own experience in our own Parishes where we have tried to put traffic calming --

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): So the answer is no?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Did not speak directly to them, no

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Thank you. Did the Working Group or the Minister feel that it is their role to do what people want, notwithstanding any other evidence?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Yes. I think it is my role to do what people want, as a States representative, a States Member. I think it is our role to do what people want, but it has to be balanced against the needs of a few against the needs of the majority. This is what we have tried to do in this proposal, to satisfy the need of the majority.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Would you not agree that the situation with -- smoking is quite an interesting parallel, because there the view is not taken that people should go on doing what they want, but the view is taken that the cost to society is too high and therefore action had to be

taken by the State.

Connétable M. Jackson .

Yes. You can draw a parallel to the cost of road accidents, which is always an issue, but once again, we have to be careful not to be deceived by the causes of those accidents. Are they just drink? Are they just unfortunate? Are there any common circumstances?

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Has any consideration been given to part-time speed limits, like we have outside schools, for Green Lanes, for areas like where currently we have 30 miles an hour right the way through, but after midnight there is no reason why those lanes could not be open to 40? Has any consideration been given to that within your review?

Connétable G. Butcher:

Certainly, we had brief discussions on it, but felt that it would be an even more difficult thing to police. In the long term because there is potential that we would get people thinking I have not got a watch. It just did not seem to be an area that was worth considering.

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

In view of the variable speed limits requiring a lot of infrastructure in terms of signage and metal work and things which you can do -- I think the school ones are very effective and there is a school there and the signage is there, but you have to be very careful not to turn this Island into a big traffic signed place which then people ignore.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

It has been suggested that any confusion about existing speed limits arises as much from inadequate signposting as from any misunderstanding of the limits in force. Does the Minister believe that what he is proposing will actually simplify the existing situation?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Yes. I think that is the whole idea, if you like, in that the public needs to be made aware of the situation. In our short distance, if we have the variations in speed that we have at the moment example I think the public are inevitably confused. So we have striven to achieve something which is simple to understand

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Okay. Before I go round the table once more, I will just put another couple of questions and then we will open it up. It is noted that the proposition incorporates a reference to the setting up of an Appeals Panel, even before the new policy is in place. Would it not be better to put more effort into ensuring that the proposed changes to the speed limit policy are meaningful and enforceable? In other words, to do the homework, or do your homework and get it right in the first place, before considering how to enable an appeal?

Connétable M. Jackson :

First, to work backwards, I think we feel that in any policy there ought to be a proper appeal mechanism, because circumstances can be affected by individuals, companies or commercial presence and so on and so forth. So, having got that appeal

mechanism in place, we can then work back. We have done what I consider significant consultation through the Parishes, through the Roads Committees. Other consultation which has had in my mind a significant response, probably a bigger response than we have ever had on anything, and I feel that we have done the work and we have the response and we simply just want to get on with simplifying the system that we have.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Now for open questions, gentlemen.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Yes. The Minister has just said that there has been a significant consultation. I do not think we have quite asked the question yet specifically about whether there was a process to identify stakeholders. I suspect I know the answer, but was there a process of identifying which stakeholders it would be useful to talk to?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Stakeholders are, I suppose, principally in terms of speed limits, how do you identify stakeholders? Are they pedestrians walking along the roads? Are they horse riders? Cyclists? Or just motorists?

Deputy D. Wimberley:

May I just stop you there. The question was, what process was there or was there a process -- I do not want you to do it now -- of identifying stakeholders who perhaps should be approached directly in parallel with the consultation, the survey, as is the normal practice?

Connétable M. Jackson .

No, I do not think there was, because I think, in truth, the whole of the public are stakeholders in this situation. So the only sensible way to do it is by open public invitation to consultation, which is what we did.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

So the consultation list was not used? The States consultation list?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Not per se, because I think the whole issue is too broad to identify particular stakeholders

Deputy D. Wimberley:

There was no attempt to reach specific groups, cyclists, pedestrians, horse riders, people who live alongside roads, transport operators and all the people we have mentioned, and emergency services? There was no process of identifying those stakeholders?

Connétable M. Jackson : Not individually, no

Deputy D. Wimberley: Thank you

Senator.

Senator A. Breckon:

We are talking about a policy that is going to propose changes and I mentioned before what do people want, but I mean how much of this is emotive and how much is factual, because people can get -- I am sure as Graeme found -- people are very, even at public meetings which are not very well attended, traffic is emotive, rather than factual. So where do we separate the emotion from the facts to get the policy?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think you are absolutely right. Speeding in local areas -- I think the terminology, generally speaking, everyone will refer to as an "accident waiting to happen", and we had to try and balance that by getting the evidence in localised areas and using that evidence to come up with an overall policy. I think the policy that has been presented is an accumulation of all that localised evidence. It is fed the review group's considerations and hence we have a policy.

Senator A. Breckon:

May I ask you where you link, then, with the police and the enforcement and I know we have the Constable as well, but if you are going to have policy with signage, if people are not going to take any notice of it, then what is the point of it? Or are you going to go to zero tolerance?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Just to go back, the linkage in terms of feedback and the connection -- feedback in terms of policing has obviously come from States police accident reports which the

Department has. Feedback from the Chefs de Police. In turn, that has gone into the Roads Committees, who are responsible for the signage. So the Roads Committees will respond to local police issues, if there is evidence to support that. In terms of zero tolerance, if you want no accidents, we do not have any cars. We stop. But I think what we have to strive to do is find this balance, which has been alluded to. It is a question of keeping things moving, avoiding unnecessary delays. We all experience delays caused by road works and the unrest that causes from the public. I think it is sometimes dictated by the number of letters in the Evening Post and should we respond to that and just accept that traffic will from time to time slow down and stop? I think personally a balance has to be struck and we have achieved to do that with this proposal, which I think is about as close to the mark as we can get

Senator A. Breckon:

Do you think, with another hat on, it is too much to ask of the honorary system to impose the speed limits?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Well, the honorary system does police the speed limits as much as they possibly can. I can just refer back to a comment the Chairman made with regard to the 20-mile an hour school limits, once again referring to a police meeting I had last night. People are looking at a particular school to ensure that those take place and I have to say that the average speed recorded was certainly higher than 20 miles an hour. So that will stimulate further activity in that area.

Deputy K. Lewis :

As has been said before with the speed indicator devices, the honorary police are now

targeting certain areas where they know there is a persistent problem. They cannot obviously do it everywhere at once, but they are targeting.

Deputy S. Power:

Would you not agree also that the honorary police are only really available at off-peak times?

Connétable M. Jackson :

It varies Parish to Parish and individual honorary police Members to another. I mean, speaking for myself, and Graeme for St. John s, but we have two or three who are able to do daytime work. I suppose I must take this opportunity to plug the fact that we are always in need of more honorary police and welcome any applications from those who wish to be involved.

Deputy D. Wimberley

Going back to the consultation, the actual survey which is the, as you said right at the beginning, Constable, was the basis of the whole thing, because it was not a technical review, but a consultative review, how was the consultation questionnaire drawn up, and by whom?

Connétable G. Butcher: Between the group and officers.

Deputy D. Wimberley: Who approved it? Connétable G. Butcher: I would have done.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Was there any input from the statistics unit in terms of either creating the questions or collating the responses?

Connétable G. Butcher:

There was, I think, and the officer who was dealing with it dealt with the stats unit as well.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Sorry, let me just get this clear. Did the statistics unit help with creating the questions? That is the first question.

Connétable G. Butcher:

I think they were spoken to about the questions.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did they approve the questions, or were they spoken to about them? What was the --

Connétable G. Butcher:

I think they helped to outline the questions.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

They helped to outline the questions.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Could I stop for a second. Were we not told that the officers were the Acting Senior Engineer and the Manager, Transport Policy?

Acting Director of Transport and Technical Services:

And the Director of Transport. The first two are traffic engineering officers. The Director of Transport was, but she does not have necessarily a traffic background, so traffic engineering officers --  

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman): Okay. Sorry

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Okay. The second half was, did the statistics unit help with collating the results?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I believe not. I believe the Director of Transport did the collation, apart from what was on the website, the survey. So a lot of information came from that. I think they were something like 58 replies outside of that

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Why were the don't knows' omitted from the charts?

Connétable G. Butcher:

I cannot answer that. There were some people I think that did not answer some

questions.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Some was 300, 400. Sometimes even 500 people skipped the question.

Connétable G. Butcher: Yes.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I just wonder what happened to the evidence that that gives you? The fact that there is a great big bar on the chart that is don't know or skipped the question. It does not appear in your figures, unless you read them very carefully with the small print.

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think it would be invidious for me to answer with "don't know", but, I mean, in practice, that is usually an indication that the question was not framed in the way that it should to produce a satisfactory answer. That is really why people tend to answer, "don't know".

Deputy D. Wimberley:

The problem is, Chairman, that, if you leave out the people who skipped, you get a skewed answer. So, for example, you have the figure you give in your proposition and your report, page 4 (e), which says that 51 per cent of people have said they would support the limit on Green Lanes going from 15 to 20. But if you add in the people who skipped the question, it is 32 per cent. That is a big difference,

51 per cent to 32 per cent. So 32 per cent of people who filled in the questionnaire --

Connétable G. Butcher:

I think what happened on that one, I think they added -- I think we ended up with

67 per cent on that, because they were added in all the ones that thought that it should have been even higher than 20 miles an hour.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

The point is that you left out -- by leaving out the people who skipped the question, you skewed the results and that is true of all the results. Because you leave out in that case 500 and --

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think, with one exception, the summary of the results has a caveat on it saying, "of those people answering the question ... ", and I think if you work on that the percentage is correct.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Sure, but you are leaving out 530 people, which is actually getting on for half -- sorry, 530 answered it, and 320 did not. That is a very high percentage --

Connétable M. Jackson :

Say that perhaps a caveat could also state that, as applying to the first statistic,

66 per cent wanted the policy changed, but without the caveat the percentage would have been 65, according to my sums.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

No, sorry, that is not true, with respect. Okay. I accept your thing of adding the 30s and the 25s to the 20, because those people all want the limit higher, but then, even if you took the 66 per cent, and then added back the skipped questions, you would not get 66 per cent. You would not have more than half. I just wonder what your view is on leaving out the people who skipped each question from the bar charts --

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

But if the others answered the question, then you are not -- I do not understand the relevance of -- there is no answer, so how can that be relevant in terms of the answer to that question?

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I just wonder how it matches normal statistical procedure and whether you ran that past the statistics unit?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

The caveat was of the people who answered the question. Then that is a valid statement.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

I noticed that caveat and it is a valid statement as it stands. But is that normal practice to ignore people who skip or do not or answer "don't know"? Is that normal statistical practice actually to not represent those people in any way?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I think that is maybe we have to sort of take advice from the statistics unit on that in

terms of presentation of figures.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did you take advice on that from the statistics unit?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I cannot say specifically on that particular question, but the statistics unit were involved with the Survey Monkey throughout.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

Did they give advice on the presentation of the figures?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I cannot answer that question.

Connétable G. Butcher:

I know they were consulted on it, but --

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services: We can find out.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

It is important, obviously, when you are consulting, that all key stakeholders, such as the emergency services, public transport, freight transport, operators and local businesses and vulnerable groups, are actually consulted, when you are talking about reducing speed limits or increasing speed limits and the like. I have not got anything out of you gentlemen this morning to tell me that all these groups were consulted across the board. Can you confirm or otherwise that this is the case?

Connétable M. Jackson :

Not across the board, in a direct answer, but I can say that, if you analyse the commercial vehicles, if you like, the actual changes to the behaviour of commercial vehicles of this policy will be very small because of the present 30-mile an hour limit on those vehicles. In practice, the results of the public feedback, if you like, the consultation of 851 answers, was more significant than the States have had to any consultation in the past and I regarded that as very satisfactory.

Deputy D. Wimberley:

There is a problem, though, is there not, as you said, Jersey Tourism, who are a major stakeholder and have a big vested interest in the Green Lanes, so much so that they have tabled an amendment, did not actually come to the table with their concerns? So consulting by, with the best will in the world, saying to the public, "Would you like to comment on this?" does not reach people that you need to reach. Would you accept that?

Connétable M. Jackson :

No. I think the fault lies principally with Tourism not picking up on what is going on and I think, within our Department, we need to know what other Departments are doing. Regrettably, I think they missed a trick and we will -- I have said before, I think this is best put to the States. I discussed this with the Minister of Economic Development, who obviously approached me about it, and I suggested the best way to deal with this, because they left it so late, was to put it to States Members. I think let

us thrash it out on the floor of the States --

Deputy D. Wimberley:

There is another statutory body that you did not consult, in the same way as Jersey Tourism, and I will just put it to you and ask for a comment, which is the Medical Officer of Health or the health promotion and health protection people on the issue of health issues arising from stress and anxiety connected with vehicles. There is evidence and there is a body of opinion about that, but did you consult about that at all? Did you get a view from the MOH or her Department about those issues?

Chief Officer of Transport and Technical Services:

Can I answer that? The Sustainable Transport Policy has been developed with all those stakeholders involved. The actual issue of a strategic speed limit review did not feel as though it needed to or need to consult with those people that is part of our Sustainable Transport Policy and we have been working with the officers very closely on delivering that policy.

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Gentlemen, finally, how does the Minister justify proposing these policy changes based on such limited evidence?

Connétable M. Jackson :

I disagree with you, Chairman, that the evidence is limited. The evidence from the Parishes, from the Roads Committees, from our experienced officers to my mind is sufficient to justify making these changes and I am perfectly content with that

Deputy P. Rondel (Chairman):

Any other questions, Senator? Deputy ? No. Deputy . If not, gentlemen, I would like to thank you very much for attending this morning and it has been very useful to

our -- to my Panel and, once again, thank you, and I will declare the meeting closed at 11.29, or this part of the meeting.

[11.29]